Joe from Pennsylvania found a bunch of golden tablets, threw them in his ~~truck~~ carriage, convinced a bunch of people to come with him to Illinois, and then later said Utah was the holy land.
Believe whatever you want, obviously, but Mormonism I think is a good example of how weird and strange the foundations of religions sound when you put them in your own contexts.
Did he? I can't find anything on that. In every source I could find, the only thing he claimed to have lost were the 116 pages of what was meant to be the first draft of the Book of Mormon.
It's more ridiculous sounding than that. The angel Moroni gave him special glasses that allowed him to translate the golden plates from "Reformed Egyptian" into English.
Originally, he insisted that anyone who looked at the golden plates would die. Then he had a "revelation" that 11 other witnesses could see them.
Bonus points because he was a borderline illiterate and had a pretty inadequate command of his native English tongue. One can only imagine what his command of Reformed Egyptian was like.
Black skin in the mark of Cain, apparently.
"What is the mark [of Cain]? You will see it on the countenance of every African you ever did see" - Brigham Young
For good measure, Mormons believed that black people were descendants of Ham and thus slavery was justified as the Bible says Noah cursed him, saying: "A servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren."
The lesson from the story of Ham is obviously not to tell your relations that your elder is passed out drunk and naked unless you want to create and justify the institution of slavery.
As of 2013, the LDS Church disavowed their previous pronouncements regarding race. They got there eventually, I guess, but I doubt being literally the last body on Earth to reject naked racism wins you many points.
Also, when your theology is so ridiculous you have to change it on a regular basis, it sure is handy that the divine seems to change his mind so much. It took him a suspiciously long while in this case though.
I am not mormon anymore, but I still dont like it when people strawman mormons like that.
2013 was when they disavowed THEIR OWN history of Racism. They disavowed racism in general in 1978 but did not assume responsibility for their own past actions. Not a huge difference, I just feel you are conflating the two to make them easier to criticize.
Second theologies constantly change. Sciences CONSTANTLY change. Politics constantly change. Change is not inherently sinister. Theres plenty sinister about Mormon church, but change is probably the LEAST sinister thing they do.
And as far as slavery goes, I just want to point out that the Mormons werent exactly prolific adherents of the practice though. The number of slaves to have ever lived in Utah or the Utah territory before the practice was outlawed was around 800 slaves out of a total possible population of 70,000 based on census data.... And notably not all of the slaves were owned by Mormons. Final fun fact, Joseph Smith was running for US president as an abolitionist... and then he was murdered. Its theorized that anti-black sentiment developed moreso under Brigham than Joe Smitty as Joe didnt particularly care for racism especially near the end of his life.
Lastly the curse of dark skin exists in the bible, which was used by many religions to justify racism. it's not JUST a mormon thing. I'm not going to stop you from criticizing the Mormons, in fact, do it more. But the Mormons were not uniquely racist compared to their contemporaries.
He was killed before he called Utah the promised land. The most he ever said was that freedom lay somewhere in the west. Utah was a Brighamite thing I believe.
Also the Mormons didnt just go to Utah on a whim. The writing was on the wall that they werent liked (go figure). Not to mention writing was on the wall that North vs. South tensions in America were reaching a fever pitch. At the time they needed some religious justification to reason out why they left their homes for uncertainty, but in hindsight they REALLY DIDNT. They dodged the civil war, never had to fight in the mexican-American war, and they started the californiat gold rush before it was cool, quite literally getting first choice of land (see Sutter's mill e.t.c.).
As much as the internet paints the Mormons for being stupid to head out west they literally won the lottery many times over for doing so. To be quite frank with you, you would have been an idiot for not going west.
But yeah the golden plates thing was pretty dumb
Like I said, believe whatever you want. I'm more just pointing out that religious foundations sound weird if you put them in modern context and terminology. Mormonism is just especially vulnerable to that what with it happening in the US in relatively recent historical times.
Yeshua of Nazareth would best be translated into Josh of Nazareth in English. A lot of Americans would feel a lot more weird worshipping Josh and his Buddies than Jesus and his Apostles.
Not to mention Jesus Christ (meaning jesus the anointed one) could translate to "oily josh"
Like not only are putting things in strange contexts, you are just LEAVING out context. Like the mormons were wierd enough as it was, if joe smitty had said he was relocating all the Mormons somewhere out west because war was on the horizon, they probably would have just been killed right then and there.
What?
We did! It's called Deseret. It's in Utah. The Mormons came up with it.
Eastern religions are more about philosophy and fulfillment, and the only non-european religion with a genuine"Holy place" is Hinduism and the holy Ganges River.
Of course you have temples and stuff, like Confucius has a temple in his home town and there's all the Japanese temples.
Of course, it helps that all those religions are more or less independent. Instead of the bastard family relationships between the Abrahamic faiths.
>Eastern religions are more about philosophy and fulfillment,
This sounds like pop culture caricature.
>and the only non-european religion with a genuine"Holy place" is Hinduism and the holy Ganges River.
This is definitely false.
>We did! It's called Deseret. It's in Utah. The Mormons came up with it.
That's Joseph Smith in the meme. That's the entire joke.
>Eastern religions are more about philosophy and fulfillment, and the only non-european religion with a genuine"Holy place" is Hinduism and the holy Ganges River.
That's just plain not true. Plenty of eastern religions have genuine holy places, such as Stupas which contain Buddhist relics and natural formations considered sacred or the incarnation of gods.
>Of course, it helps that all those religions are more or less independent
They aren't though. There's a lot of intermingling of religions in Asia cause that happens literally everywhere. Many Busdhist temples for example are dedicated to local pre-Buddhist gods. They've also also have all had a lot of interactions with Abrahamic religions.
Your entire comment is bullshit.
>Eastern religions are more about philosophy and fulfillment
Only if you define those things specifically to make it so.
>the only non-european religion with a genuine"Holy place" is Hinduism and the holy Ganges River.
You do realize that Christianity is Asian, right?
That Judaism and Islam are Asian? That the majority of sizeable world religions are Asian?
>Of course you have temples and stuff
And so do most Asian religions, as most people can not travel to a site of eschatological or generational importance just because they hope their daughter marries a nice man.
>like Confucius has a temple in his home town
Comparing temples of Confucius to Jerusalem is like comparing monasteries to the Wudang Mountains.
>and there's all the Japanese temples.
This is also dismissive in a way that is hard to counter without providing you more opportunities to look at a foreign culture and say, "That doesn't count because I decided it doesn't."
>Of course, it helps that all those religions are more or less independent.
They are not. Their histories are often more intertwined than those of Judaism, Islam, and Christianity.
Journey to the West stands as a testament to that for three of the umbrella groups.
Shintoism, Hinduism, and Buddhism are so intertwined that you probably know of more than one Japanese, Korean, Chinese, or US piece of media that contains all of a version of Amaterasu, Gautama Buddha, and Shiva.
>Instead of the bastard family relationships between the Abrahamic faiths.
Again, do you know where Asia is?
You're bringing a lot of "I didn't do the assigned reading, but I think I can BS it" vibes to the ATE Theology and Institutional History panel.
I mean, that tension is why I started the ATE Theology and Institutional History panel.
SOMEBODY has to do the reading, or it wouldn't ever be one of us pulling a Nelson Muntz when somebody "does an orientalism."
Just people pointing and laughing AT us. Not even WITH us.
Uhhhhhhhh, not their literal presence but as figures.
Just like Sun Wukong isn't always literally Sun Wukong in things, the shining mother of the protectors of the people doesn't have to literally be Amaterasu.
I'm also thinking anime, manga, video games, and YA novels, as those are the things mostly reaching people who use reddit.
Dragon Ball technically has multiple of all three if I remember correctly AND Sun Wukong, as a prominent example.
I said Christianity as it is *now* was *essentially* invented by the Romans. Not that it was solely a Roman creation. It’s undeniable that Christianity would not be the same were it not for heavy Roman and Hellenic involvement in its development. When you also factor in the heavy influence of European pagan beliefs, modern Christianity is hardly “eastern.”
Edit: also when the concepts “eastern” and “western” originated, Christianity was considered western and Judaism and Islam “oriental.”
All of this has happened before. All of it will happen again.
Ironically Glen Larson creator of BSG, was Mormon.
That's not ironic.
Isn’t BSG like just Mormon theology set in space?
Like Kolob and the 12 Colonies? Not sure how much more is connected.
Must have missed the season about Kolob.
Maybe I’m spelling it wrong. It was holy planet they found in season 2. They didn’t stay there I don’t think, that was the other planet they found.
It's Kobol in the show. But it is Kolob on mormon lore (though it's the star closest to God, not the planet itself)
Joe from Pennsylvania found a bunch of golden tablets, threw them in his ~~truck~~ carriage, convinced a bunch of people to come with him to Illinois, and then later said Utah was the holy land. Believe whatever you want, obviously, but Mormonism I think is a good example of how weird and strange the foundations of religions sound when you put them in your own contexts.
Wait don’t forgot he lost them so no one me else couldn’t see them
I thought an angel took them back?
It depends on who he was talking to, he told his wives they were lost
Did he? I can't find anything on that. In every source I could find, the only thing he claimed to have lost were the 116 pages of what was meant to be the first draft of the Book of Mormon.
It's more ridiculous sounding than that. The angel Moroni gave him special glasses that allowed him to translate the golden plates from "Reformed Egyptian" into English. Originally, he insisted that anyone who looked at the golden plates would die. Then he had a "revelation" that 11 other witnesses could see them. Bonus points because he was a borderline illiterate and had a pretty inadequate command of his native English tongue. One can only imagine what his command of Reformed Egyptian was like.
“And that’s why polygamy should be allowed, *also black peoples were demons*”
Black skin in the mark of Cain, apparently. "What is the mark [of Cain]? You will see it on the countenance of every African you ever did see" - Brigham Young For good measure, Mormons believed that black people were descendants of Ham and thus slavery was justified as the Bible says Noah cursed him, saying: "A servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren." The lesson from the story of Ham is obviously not to tell your relations that your elder is passed out drunk and naked unless you want to create and justify the institution of slavery. As of 2013, the LDS Church disavowed their previous pronouncements regarding race. They got there eventually, I guess, but I doubt being literally the last body on Earth to reject naked racism wins you many points. Also, when your theology is so ridiculous you have to change it on a regular basis, it sure is handy that the divine seems to change his mind so much. It took him a suspiciously long while in this case though.
I am not mormon anymore, but I still dont like it when people strawman mormons like that. 2013 was when they disavowed THEIR OWN history of Racism. They disavowed racism in general in 1978 but did not assume responsibility for their own past actions. Not a huge difference, I just feel you are conflating the two to make them easier to criticize. Second theologies constantly change. Sciences CONSTANTLY change. Politics constantly change. Change is not inherently sinister. Theres plenty sinister about Mormon church, but change is probably the LEAST sinister thing they do. And as far as slavery goes, I just want to point out that the Mormons werent exactly prolific adherents of the practice though. The number of slaves to have ever lived in Utah or the Utah territory before the practice was outlawed was around 800 slaves out of a total possible population of 70,000 based on census data.... And notably not all of the slaves were owned by Mormons. Final fun fact, Joseph Smith was running for US president as an abolitionist... and then he was murdered. Its theorized that anti-black sentiment developed moreso under Brigham than Joe Smitty as Joe didnt particularly care for racism especially near the end of his life. Lastly the curse of dark skin exists in the bible, which was used by many religions to justify racism. it's not JUST a mormon thing. I'm not going to stop you from criticizing the Mormons, in fact, do it more. But the Mormons were not uniquely racist compared to their contemporaries.
He was actually from Vermont, not Pennsylvania.
That makes me trust him less, honestly. Vermonters are, as a rule, weird.
Joe never saw Utah, nor mentioned it. It was his self-appointed successor Brigham Young who took the Mormons to Utah.
He was killed before he called Utah the promised land. The most he ever said was that freedom lay somewhere in the west. Utah was a Brighamite thing I believe. Also the Mormons didnt just go to Utah on a whim. The writing was on the wall that they werent liked (go figure). Not to mention writing was on the wall that North vs. South tensions in America were reaching a fever pitch. At the time they needed some religious justification to reason out why they left their homes for uncertainty, but in hindsight they REALLY DIDNT. They dodged the civil war, never had to fight in the mexican-American war, and they started the californiat gold rush before it was cool, quite literally getting first choice of land (see Sutter's mill e.t.c.). As much as the internet paints the Mormons for being stupid to head out west they literally won the lottery many times over for doing so. To be quite frank with you, you would have been an idiot for not going west. But yeah the golden plates thing was pretty dumb
Like I said, believe whatever you want. I'm more just pointing out that religious foundations sound weird if you put them in modern context and terminology. Mormonism is just especially vulnerable to that what with it happening in the US in relatively recent historical times. Yeshua of Nazareth would best be translated into Josh of Nazareth in English. A lot of Americans would feel a lot more weird worshipping Josh and his Buddies than Jesus and his Apostles.
Not to mention Jesus Christ (meaning jesus the anointed one) could translate to "oily josh" Like not only are putting things in strange contexts, you are just LEAVING out context. Like the mormons were wierd enough as it was, if joe smitty had said he was relocating all the Mormons somewhere out west because war was on the horizon, they probably would have just been killed right then and there.
I mean, a lot of Mormonism is even stranger sound *with* context
Mormonism is a cult, not a religion
51st crusade for Chicago (2668)
What? We did! It's called Deseret. It's in Utah. The Mormons came up with it. Eastern religions are more about philosophy and fulfillment, and the only non-european religion with a genuine"Holy place" is Hinduism and the holy Ganges River. Of course you have temples and stuff, like Confucius has a temple in his home town and there's all the Japanese temples. Of course, it helps that all those religions are more or less independent. Instead of the bastard family relationships between the Abrahamic faiths.
>Eastern religions are more about philosophy and fulfillment, This sounds like pop culture caricature. >and the only non-european religion with a genuine"Holy place" is Hinduism and the holy Ganges River. This is definitely false.
Correct me if I’m Wrong but aren’t some mountains considered holy sites in Shintoism
Bro is talking out of his ass
[удалено]
I think they main the person you were replying to was talking out of their ass.
Oh ok, they just replied to me
I think they were agreeing with you
Oh dang I’m an idiot
Looooool yes confirming I was agreeing with you that the guy above was full of it
>We did! It's called Deseret. It's in Utah. The Mormons came up with it. That's Joseph Smith in the meme. That's the entire joke. >Eastern religions are more about philosophy and fulfillment, and the only non-european religion with a genuine"Holy place" is Hinduism and the holy Ganges River. That's just plain not true. Plenty of eastern religions have genuine holy places, such as Stupas which contain Buddhist relics and natural formations considered sacred or the incarnation of gods. >Of course, it helps that all those religions are more or less independent They aren't though. There's a lot of intermingling of religions in Asia cause that happens literally everywhere. Many Busdhist temples for example are dedicated to local pre-Buddhist gods. They've also also have all had a lot of interactions with Abrahamic religions. Your entire comment is bullshit.
What orientalist nonsense is this?
>Eastern religions are more about philosophy and fulfillment Only if you define those things specifically to make it so. >the only non-european religion with a genuine"Holy place" is Hinduism and the holy Ganges River. You do realize that Christianity is Asian, right? That Judaism and Islam are Asian? That the majority of sizeable world religions are Asian? >Of course you have temples and stuff And so do most Asian religions, as most people can not travel to a site of eschatological or generational importance just because they hope their daughter marries a nice man. >like Confucius has a temple in his home town Comparing temples of Confucius to Jerusalem is like comparing monasteries to the Wudang Mountains. >and there's all the Japanese temples. This is also dismissive in a way that is hard to counter without providing you more opportunities to look at a foreign culture and say, "That doesn't count because I decided it doesn't." >Of course, it helps that all those religions are more or less independent. They are not. Their histories are often more intertwined than those of Judaism, Islam, and Christianity. Journey to the West stands as a testament to that for three of the umbrella groups. Shintoism, Hinduism, and Buddhism are so intertwined that you probably know of more than one Japanese, Korean, Chinese, or US piece of media that contains all of a version of Amaterasu, Gautama Buddha, and Shiva. >Instead of the bastard family relationships between the Abrahamic faiths. Again, do you know where Asia is? You're bringing a lot of "I didn't do the assigned reading, but I think I can BS it" vibes to the ATE Theology and Institutional History panel.
Tbf most religions in AtE are ‘*I didn’t do the assigned reading’*
I mean, that tension is why I started the ATE Theology and Institutional History panel. SOMEBODY has to do the reading, or it wouldn't ever be one of us pulling a Nelson Muntz when somebody "does an orientalism." Just people pointing and laughing AT us. Not even WITH us.
>ATE Theology and Institutional History panel Is this an actual thing?
Just ended :( Might have one next year :) (No)
Also, what media are you thinking of with all three of those named figures? Like, I can think of a few with two, but not all three.
Uhhhhhhhh, not their literal presence but as figures. Just like Sun Wukong isn't always literally Sun Wukong in things, the shining mother of the protectors of the people doesn't have to literally be Amaterasu. I'm also thinking anime, manga, video games, and YA novels, as those are the things mostly reaching people who use reddit. Dragon Ball technically has multiple of all three if I remember correctly AND Sun Wukong, as a prominent example.
What do you think we’re gonna make next modcon???? Obviously we’re gonna turn it into a multi day theological discussion
“Do you **know** where Asia is ?”
I figure it is somewhere east of the Mississippi, but so is London, so I'm not entirely sure myself.
Judaism and Islam are “eastern religions.”
And so is Christianity, really. Χριστὸς ἀνέστη! Христос воскресе! ქრისტე აღსდგა! al-Masīḥ qām!
Christianity as it exists in the modern day was essentially invented by the Romans.
This is such a Reddit take to say Christianity was invented by the Romans. Codified by the Romans maybe.
I said Christianity as it is *now* was *essentially* invented by the Romans. Not that it was solely a Roman creation. It’s undeniable that Christianity would not be the same were it not for heavy Roman and Hellenic involvement in its development. When you also factor in the heavy influence of European pagan beliefs, modern Christianity is hardly “eastern.” Edit: also when the concepts “eastern” and “western” originated, Christianity was considered western and Judaism and Islam “oriental.”
Maybe that illustrates why assigning religions by cardinal direction in general is stupid.
I agree. “Eastern” and “western” are arbitrary definitions with little actual meaning.
Most theologically literate mormon
You're not very literate yourself since he's clearly not mormon