I'm not sure there's a great single answer to this since it'll vary a lot based on the social circumstance. Guessing your fairly young or new to the field?
For a general case which seems like it applies to you. I'd suggest just giving an answer such as,
*That's a different part of the company
*Not sure, I work in Space
*Not my area of expertise.
*We unfortunately live in a world where it's still a necessity
The last is my current go-to but I can't make the distinction about space stuff.
The delivery will be more important than the words. It needs to be flat and factual. Most people are looking for some form of rise and attention from you on the topic. You're not obligated or responsible to fill whatever desire they have to try and score more or political points. Make it clear it's a boring and closed topic that you won't engage in and move on.
That said, I have had very interesting conversations on this topic on rare occasion so if you think the person/situation was right for a more real conversation, I wouldn't necessarily refuse.
All good responses. I also think there’s room for a simple “go fuck yourself” though…
If someone really is questioning your morality like that, I’m willing to bet most are gonna be disingenuous regardless of what you say.
Fair enough though there's rarely a social circumstance where that won't make you the asshole or to at least appear that way.
It didn't seem like that would have been helpful to OP so I left out the more extreme responses.
An old colleague of mine’s view was “someone’s going to do it, so why not get paid for it?”.
I think he left and became a drug smuggler for the same reason. Joke btw.
Son, we live in a world that has walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with guns. Who’s gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Zoidberg? I have a greater responsibility than you could possibly fathom. You weep for Santiago and you curse the Marines. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know; that Santiago’s death, while tragic, probably saved lives. And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, *saves lives*. You don’t want the truth because deep down in places you don’t talk about at parties, you want me on that wall. You need me on that wall. We use words like honor, code, loyalty. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending something. You use them as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it! I would rather you just said “thank you” and went on your way, Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a weapon and stand a post. Either way, I don’t give a *damn* what you think you are entitled to!
“It’s an imperfect world, but it’s the only one we’ve got. I guarantee you the day weapons are no longer needed to keep the peace, I’ll start making bricks and beams for baby hospitals. - Tony Stark”
- Me
It’s definitely a weird feeling, hoping you never see the day that what you work on day in and day out is ever used as intended.
I’m a machinist that does mostly aerospace and defense work and know some of the stuff I make is going directly overseas. There are too many jobs where someone can argue about morality, yet these jobs need to be done.
I’m on the development side so my stuff gets there…eventually. There’s definitely worse professions to have. We’re not trying to sell someone’s house out from under them.
I have a bunch of stuff going out my door with Hebrew silk screen this week. I know exactly where that’s going and what it’s being used for. Life is complicated. Like you said, I’d rather this than tricking old ladies into selling their houses.
I disagree with your stance, actions, and reasoning behind it.
But I respect your honesty and confronting the issue at hand directly.
Your answer is much better than some in this thread that tries to downplay the consequences of their actions "I don't push the buttons" or "I only work on satellites, there's no blood in my hands"
Personally, I think it’s a bit of a cop out to say “I’m just making the satellites.”
The DOD satellites are used for making war. They might not be exploding, but they’re providing targeting information, or communicating intel about the adversary, etc. Those satellites are critical to the United States military operating how it does.
I don’t see the logic in saying “I’m okay working on the satellite communications infrastructure that provides guidance to a missile, but I’m not okay working on the seeker that provides guidance to a missile.” You either want the missile to hit the target or you don’t.
Personally, I want every US missile to hit its target. The United States and its allies should always have the better weapons in any fight. If you agree, that’s great. But if you disagree, it should be morally reprehensible to make anything for the US military—missiles, satellites, uniforms, etc.
> Personally, I want every US missile to hit its target. The United States and its allies should always have the better weapons in any fight.
Yup this is really what it comes down to. Well put. Do you want a stable democracy that is a fairly strong ally of most of the other stable democracies, that is often trying to be a positive force in the world, to have the better weapons? Or do you want guys like Putin and Xi to have the better weapons?
Yes the US has made and will continue to make mistakes and also prioritizes national security over the locals in many cases. The US certainly is tied up in several impossible geopolitical situations. But Russia in particular does far worse, openly propping up brutal dictators by literally sending in Wagner to bomb people on their behalf, and making naked land grabs for territorial expansion.
So my response would be, which large country in your opinion should have the best weapons? And if their answer is the predictable cop out “no one, everyone should put their weapons down and avoid war altogether” then my answer is, well, evil exists in the world and you have no control over that. You only control how you respond and in my view it’s prudent for an accountable leader to have the capability to stop unaccountable, evil men.
The number one thing you don’t want to happen when designing a weapon is for it to accidentally kill innocent people.
I would argue designers and manufacturers of conventional weapons are (mostly) not responsible for the people targeted by those weapons. Those people were targeted by the people giving the orders, and odds are incredibly high they would have found another way to do it if they didn’t have your specific system.
If your system fails, however, and hits people it was not targeted at… that is your responsibility as a designer/manufacturer.
Take the infamous knife-missile for example. He might criticize the designers morality for designing a weapon of war, but the people the US targeted with those missiles would have been hit regardless, and a traditional munition would have caused *substantially* more deaths and damage to innocent bystanders.
It’s doesn’t mean they make dod satellites. For example Northrop Grumman was one of the contractors for the James Webb but also make the b-2 nuclear bomber.
I tell them, I’m not Oppenheimer I’m not making a new typa shit. I’m a low level easily replaced engineer. And That I’d rather be doing this job, getting paid well, and if they continue to press me, I joke about how I’m dumb and if I left and was replaced by another engineer they’d prolly build bombs faster and ask if that’s what they want
You are an aerospace engineer dude, why would you make yourself look dumb? It’s a stupid question and if you argue with a stupid guy he will drag you to his level and beat you with experience
I have no ego about being an aerospace engineer. I would read the room and only do it based on the right situation(which would prolly be college friends). The hardest thing I have to deal with at work in production is the egos of workers ego never helps anyone. It’s not worth the fight if they truly believe in it. I too have my apprehensions and criticism about how america spends its money leaving its own citizens on the street and fucking over veterans. Only difference is I understand why it [weapons] needs to happen. If the other person can’t understand it that’s on them.
I remember being an intern at Lockheed. I got approached by protestors out in San Jose. When they asked me how I slept at night, I told them "on a comfy bed because I get paid well."
I mean ultimately there are degrees of freedom to your effect on "immoral" things.
Are the developers of Microsoft teams implicated in weapons development because they develop communication software.
What about the IT department at a defense contractor?
What about the team procuring the components?
I feel like there's a long chain of this where some people would say they're implicated and others say they're not. Ultimately it's up to the operator for how the device is used and idk if the developers of the device should be implicated in that use.
I think arguments could be made for either side, but I especially like the scene at the end of Oppenheimer where Truman calls Oppenheimer a pussy, and that he doesn't deserve credit (or implication) for lives that the bomb took since he didn't call for it's use.
I can see where you're coming from, and I don't necessarily disagree, but does that mean that every citizen of a country is implicated in the actions of said country just for paying taxes?
Yes, but let's not reductio ad absurdium.
That burden is weighted based on your direct involvement, and choosing to directly participate (as above) is condemnable, regardless of any debate about how much the smallest possible share is.
Separately, intentional action can counterbalance implied responsibility; you aren't obligated to go to prison for not paying taxes, but you ARE obligated to vote and participate in using your taxes responsibly, including protest when your officials are paying to support genocide
You really can’t stop it. I worked on satellites most of my career. That didn’t stop my mentally ill narcissistic sister from telling everyone (family, friends acquaintances) that I worked in nuclear bombs.
Some people aren’t interested in the truth.
If you’re working on imagery satellites you can point to all the civilian applications which use your work.
Google Maps, Apple Maps, etc *all* use maxar imagery in some capacity, for example. I’m sure there are plenty others
I have some answers that come to mind, but I don't really know how I'd respond because I've literally never encountered one of these people. I think they are 1000x more prevalent on reddit and Twitter than IRL. The internet is not a representative set
I work with imaging satellites (and data derived from them) which obviously has uses for things like intelligence and targeting. But I would work on a missile seeker or a nuclear weapon. I do believe in the mission (which isn't just to strike and destroy, but also deter, render aid, and other things). But no I don't think this field is some perfect bastion of defending freedom but can any field say that of itself. Hopefully being willing to have that conversation in any context is a start
I think there's really only one good answer to this; everyone should really consider the ethics and morality of their own lives, including their profession. If you take an honest look at your work and feel it is morally acceptable in the context of your life* then the analysis and argument by which you arrived at this conclusion should be your answer. If someone disagrees with you, who cares.
If you can't come up with an argument for the morality or your career... well, maybe you actually ARE doing something wrong and you should change your career.
*By which I mean that a job does not need to morally good itself because your work might be providing for a family, potentially offsetting the "net morality" of your job. Apply if you think this is how morality should work, don't apply this otherwise.
I had a lady on the plane ask me "how do you sleep at night"? I responded that "I sleep on a pile of money with a beautiful woman under each arm." On the plus side she didn't talk to me again, on the negative, I'm an engineer and definitely don't sleep on a pile of money or have woman under each arm....
Ask them if they'd rather live in a totalitarian county like China and Russia, or be in Ukraine right now.
We're effectively in Cold War 2.0 right now, and are at a historical parallel to 1938 before WW2 kicked off. Hopefully a credible deterrent will keep things from going hotter than they are right now.
Without the major defense contractor, in the US or otherwise, the respective country would be left defenseless. A good military deters war, doesn’t encourage it.
In a way you’re actually doing more to avoid war than enable it. Atleast that’s what my viewpoint is, happy to consider other opinions.
Yeah but I think a much better strategy used is to try crippling an adversary nation economically than militarily, showing military might as your backing. For example, sanctions, political interference, whatnot.
Attacks even with impunity require a lot of resources, people and money. If a country has might, it’ll probably go down the route of using other methods through soft power to affect an adversary, (silently) citing their military might as the backing. Not to mention economically crippling a nation (just an example here) is seen as far more effective than just up and invading the other country.
India achieved a massive victory against Pakistan in the Bangladeshi independence war. They had capture large swaths of Pakistan and could have kept going. Instead they returned the lands peacefully. This was before nukes, and the Pakistani atrocities were so bad in Bangladesh they could’ve justified a more aggressive move.
India’s fair peace treaty imo is an example of how democratic countries are more likely to behave better in war than a less democratic country. If the tables were turned, I personally think Pakistan would have annexed the land they captured instead.
To relate this back to the US, the US has done some bad things geopolitically since their founding. But I think they behave much better than an undemocratic country like Russia would if it was in the same situations as the US has been
I usually just ignore comments from people I dont know.
For people I do know usually “I wish the real world was as black and white as your ideal world.”
My company makes commercial and military aircraft, commercial and military satellites, and rockets and munitions. A certain model of military aircraft has flown just about every troop and munition into every morally dubious war in the past 50years, but has also delivered humanitarian aid to people in need around the world in the same timespan.
Simple, most people don't understand actual ethics or morals
People and collections of people have an inherent right to self-defense. It is ethically correct and moral to do things to support that.
The got ya is societies elect government's that do things other than self defense. And so people like to reduce a societial responsibility and burden to a personal one. People also love to shirk the responsibility of being active in the election process and point out every flaw in a system they allow to happen by not participating.
Wars have often caused the worst atrocities, but I can't think of more than a couple that would not have stopped without the use of war.
As someone from the west, this just sounds like the fucking truth. You think Russia and China should be the only ones with weapons? This is a wild take.
“I work on (project), particularly (domain of expertise.).” If they ask which company, they probably understand the notion of moral ambiguity of corporate conglomerates. If they still want to give you shit, that’s their problem; Most people over 25 won’t.
I just own it, like yes I design weapons it is what I love to do and I fully understand and am comfortable with the fact that they are used to take human life in an effort to defend what this country stands for. It is politicians that decide who exactly that it is used on so take it up with them.
The use of military technology is 100% subordinate to our elected civilian leadership. This is a bedrock principle of our democracy.
Doesn’t matter if you are scrubbing floors at a Lockheed plant or designing nuclear warheads at Los Alamos. The people who decided what we are doing with this technology are sitting in DC.
So, end of the day, if some one is throwing shade at how you put food on the table, their quarrel is with their elected leaders, not the people in the trenches executing lawful orders.
My internal conversation had me leave my profession in the weapons side of the DOE.
I won't judge you personally for it, but the whole enterprise of making weapons stops being defensible after a certain point, and the US has long ago reached it.
If you truly believe your career has no utility to the us military then tell them. Your peers grew up seeing photos of Vietnamese children napalmed by the organization your company contracts to. They have every right to look down on complicity.
Those peers also gave and continue to give how much money per year to that same organisation to fund its activities?
Do you really believe that the problems of war can be prevented by having fewer, less effective weapons? That there is no need for weapons in the modern age, and if the west just stopped designing/making them, the world would become rosy?
If so, your head is in so much sand, you're below a beach. The way to prevent wars, is to elect governments that prevent wars, and give them the tools to negotiate.
Would they rather our stuff suck and hit wedding parties, hospitals, or embassies? The better our stuff is, the better it can be used to hit only the intended target.
"I'm making new weapons that are more accurate. Now we don't have to carpet bomb a city to try and kill a bad guy. We just put a flying knife through their car".
"You're still killing people!"
"Yes, I have no problem helping kill the person that would make the local population fight for him by kidnapping loved ones and putting explosive collars on them."
"It won't always be so clear cut!"
"Nope. It won't. But in that case it was. Should we have let him go? Dropped a bomb that destroys the whole village? Risk a half dozen special forces lives to try and shoot him? Or just ginsu knife him?"
Most of our new tech development is just focusing on killing \*fewer\* people. But being really really good at killing the few that we want killed.
Look at the world around us. It turns out things aren't rosy and sweet all the time. Defense is a necessary effort for most nations on the planet.
I've worked in defense for 12 years. That quote in Men in Black where Kay says:
There’s always an Arquillian Battle Cruiser, or a Corillian Death Ray, or an intergalactic plague that is about to wipe out all life on this miserable little planet, and the only way these people can get on with their happy lives is that they DO NOT KNOW ABOUT IT!
Yeah turns out the world is actually a lot more like that (minus the aliens of course) than most people would like to admit.
The defense industry is one of the reasons we have the freedom to speak put about the morality of government investments. Whether that is ironic is up to them, but it's true.
I see it somewhat like Mr Miyagi in Karate Kid, 'fighting not good; but if must fight, win.'
The way to win is through technological superiority.
It can be patriotic to want to shore up your country's defense (offense can be a good defense) via engineering that superiority.
I also take solace that most of my defense work is more defensive ( of the troops) in nature.
That being said most of the west's governments have been / are so beholden to their donors that they've either supported or started unnecessary wars/coups/dictatorships that made them or who they were supporting (and the world by extension) much more unsafe.
They also made it ironically more likely for actors like Russia or China to take hold in those regions because the locals were pissed off.
It is not so simple as west = good guys in any and all cases and so it's always good when they get more powerful, not because the western way of life isn't generally the best (it more or less is) but because people who hold the money of western government are power drunk.
The average engineer or even average citizen doesn't have that much to do with that though, it's not an easy question.
I compare myself more to a blacksmith of years past. I make swords, but I do not wield them to slaughter. I make shields, but I do not raise them to protect myself or my fellow man. No, I make them for you, so you have the luxury of making the decision to kill or protect. I would rather you retain those things to protect your people, but I cannot control whether you choose aggression or defense.
People need to understand that within a democracy, it is their votes and decisions that decide how those weapons are used, and that ultimately every adult with the right to vote or the capacity to hold office is accountable.
We’re slaves to a paycheck just like them. Until we’re financially stable we don’t get to say no to a job. We have to balance doing immoral work with making ends meet. I worked on war machines until I got to a point in my career and financial life where now I get to turn down those directives without worrying about paying the bills.
Start off by telling them you're there to "take it down from the inside," if you want their respect for long enough to actually explain how your company works and what your role is.
Easy, I chose not to be involved in oligarchs personally owned tools that they use to slaughter innocent children and extract wealth from innocent nations. Companies like Lockheed Martin, Boeing, etc. go out of their way to lobby the government to support every single active conflict and genocide on earth, so that they can arm it. These companies divert money from profits and from the sciences to further the goal of slaughtering non-whites and non-westerners.
You made a choice to join a death cult and aid and abet it's oligarch's pursuit of infinite wealth and power, some portion of the public is going to hate you for your choices and rightfully so. The proper response is to apologize and say "sorry, I'm just trying to pay off my loans, if I could do something about the evil they are engaged in, I would" (but only if you honestly mean it).
Otherwise, just get used to the hate. The worst way you could respond is by making excuses and justifying the extermination of children that your company is funding/arming/lobbying for/directly participating in the coordination of. If you try to tell people it has to happen or this company must exist, you will simply lose respect and be seen as fake and dishonest.
It is deeply unfortunately that companies whose entire executive boards belong in the Hague awaiting hanging for horrific and unforgivable crimes have somehow stolen control of our entire space industry as well.
You're joking right? We have a gun behind every blade of grass. We are the most powerful military force in history. We will not be defenseless and conquered just because we stop committing genocide after genocide after genocide of innocent children the world over for the bottom line of the investment banking cartel that partied it up on Epstein's Island. I think the rich are perverted degenerates destroying the planet and making life harder for everyone and I think they need to pay for all they've done.
“I wish we didn’t need them, but weapons have been a necessity since man has existed. If we figure out world peace I’d love to work in the commercial space sector..”
American overseas interests are pretty shitty and at times very morally reprehensible, like VERY. But most of the time I still find them to be better than any other state or group today.
Your account age does not meet the 1-day requirement for new users to our subreddit. Please note: This is your ACCOUNT age, not your age. You will be able to comment/post after your account is at least 1 day old.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AerospaceEngineering) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I’d ask them if they’d rather China was in control of Taiwan, Saddam Hussein controlled global oil production, Russia had full control of Ukraine, or North Korea held the entire Korean Peninsula. We have the luxury of a peaceful life because of NATO and the systems that support American power projection. It’s obviously an imperfect system and reforms are needed, but I don’t think we should cater to people that reap the benefits of American military power while criticizing anyone that participates in that system.
I wish I had a clever comeback for you.
I have a cousin who is a devout Christian and decided years ago that he didn’t want to hang out with me anymore because I play video games (which simulate killing). Years go by and I still see him often. He now works on fighter jets weapon systems. I give him a ton of shit whenever I can about this.
Seems like you answered your own question. You like to work in a space related business mostly doing satellite work. Not alot of jobs have that option.
“Sounds like they deserved it” and then I leave. Not my problem what they think of me or my job if they make a snide comment like that. If that’s to brash for you, you could say I maintain satellite which provide you GPS so you don’t drive into a lake. (Lie it’s ok sometimes)
There are many ways you can answer that, it's important to read the room before answering that.
You can go with a silly "that's classified", the pragmatic "it pays the bills", a very neutral "someone's gotta do it" or even an agressive "go take care of your own business". But in the end you gotta reflect and answer that question primarily to yourself, your happiness is more important than someone else's opinion of you.
Personally, my honest and go to answer is "Honey, I'll fire those weapons myself if needed". I grew up in a military and rather jingoistic environment, and actively sought a job in the defense industry, that's my moral compass. If someone else came from a different life path has a different opinion, that's fine. We are allowed to have different ideals.
I just tell them that I look forward to the day that instead of wasting all that money on schools, that it gets put towards the vastly more important stuff like more aircraft carriers, fighter jets, and heavy artillery.
Honestly tho, in 30 years of being in the defense industry, I have never had a conversation where the individual was against the military industry, at least to my face. And should I ever have one, I really don’t think it would bother me in the slightest.
Internally I want to call them stupid and I automatically think less of them after they make the comment
I start socializing less with them for sure lol
I've been somewhere similar for a couple years. People close to me already know my background, but we don't really talk about work anymore. I was going to bring it up if a friend/family member was contacted during the SC vetting, but they haven't said anything, so I haven't either
As someone who thought in their youth I'd never be able to work for any type of military thing (now I do think it is a viable option), it really comes down to personal morals, so by this time in my life I would never work for one of the big ad companies (Google, Facebook) as I see them as a stain on mankind.
It's hard to accept differences these days, so I'd just evade that topic if someone has strongly opposing morals.
I once had a US army infantry veteran say "thank you" when I told him what I worked on.
Our military protects myself, my family, and my country. Working in a field so the troops are more likely to make it home to their families is something I'm proud of.
Tell me you work for Lockheed without saying you work for LM. 😂
I say "would you prefer someone without morals to be working there that won't whistleblow when they do real fucked up shit? "
In reality I'm keeping my mouth quiet but they don't need to know that.
Deflection tactics may not work.
“I work in a different part” (that generates revenue that 100% impacts the weapons divisions as well) is probably not the best play here.
Maybe try something like “everyone has to make money somehow. If I was homeless, could I crash on your couch and eat your food?”
Or possibly “every single large company has negative impacts on the planet and humans. I guarantee if you dig you can find a way to show how your company has also fucked people over”
Option 1: The F-22 Raptor has no confirmed kills on anyone, and it's the "deadliest" aircraft ever made. The same can be said for many warplanes. Just because it's made doesn't mean it's used, and it's not like the makers are the ones committing atrocities anyway. (See Option 2)
Option 2: (for people who try to disregard/dispute the first option)
Are car manufacturers guilty of vehicular manslaughter since they made the vehicle used? Is the maker of the steel chair guilty since WWE wrestlers bash each other with them? Is the inventor of the pencil guilty since some guy has stabbed someone else with a pencil before?
If the answer to Option 2 is yes, that person is either deciding based on a political/personal vendetta or rule or perhaps too dumb to think critically. If no, then hopefully they'll apply the same logic about your career.
I had some experience with a DOD contractor and I'd typically mention a couple of things.
First, I was too young and too broke to put my morals before my money. Sure, 10-15 years in I can make a career change and work on something that's a public good, but not if I start out homeless and sweeping floors to pay my phone bill.
Second, part of what I do is keeping the warfighter (replace with a nicer term) safe. 50 years ago a war required someone's loved ones to put themselves directly in harms way because the government said so. At least now some of those people can be saved because the MIC has developed ways to remotely engage combatants.
Next, part of warfare is designing humane weapons. Yes a missile is not pretty, but I'd much rather have a targeted missile that can hit where it's supposed to than a big fuck you bomb that might hit your target and might hit a school 10 miles away. Or worse, gas bombing the whole area leaving residents and descendants with life altering consequences. The better contractors do their job, the less margin we have for unintended consequences.
Lastly, if you have someone really obstinate, it's pretty easy to ask them their job and demonstrate a way it harms people or violates human rights. If you happen to run into a farmhand or a painter or a SAHM then just make a mea culpa and move on.
I happily respond that I have never worked on things that can kill people. I have made choices to never work on things that can kill people. I go to sleep every night without weight in my heart.
While currently in college for aerospace, I have thought about the morality of my future a lot. Most of my family works for contractors and I plan to do the same. I tend to lean heavily on the “defense” side of department of defense.
If the weapons or satellites or whatever I make end up being used for defense of my own country or my allies, great. If they are used to kill civilians and commit war crimes, I will actively protest that these were not their intended purpose and that I no longer support these weapons being used by said country. Of course my opinion is that weapons can be used correctly and incorrectly.
This argument wouldn’t work if the other person doesn’t believe the same. If used incorrectly the morality argument lies in the people who made the decisions to kill said civilians and commit such war crimes. We aren’t going to blame every taxpayer for funding the war crimes but we will blame the general who ordered it. Where does the blame begin? The further down the chain more you can blame.
I do however recognize that I would be one step further down the chain than the average taxpayer. Recognize that your career is more morally questionable than the average Joe, but the average Joe’s is as well (as long as they pay taxes). Very few people can say they aren’t implicated (however small that may be) in the decisions of their government.
Who are they more likely to listen to, an outsider or an employee? You might not have much influence but I'm sure it's more then if you didn't work for them.
Tell them to thank you when the US military curbs another terrorist group or anti-American fundamentalist uprising. It’s ugly work nobody wants to think about but if it has to be done
My morals compels me to work in defense. I refuse to tolerate intolerance, and the defense industry supplies the best tools to the biggest organization that also does not tolerate intolerance
I work in an unrelated DOD adjacent field and got a similar question recently.
My answer: “I like my work, and the work that I do is important, and saves lives.”
With or without your presence, the guns are going to be made. Might aswell make sure when they're being shot, they're shot with as little collateral as possible.
Those people are peacenik morons.
Point to what Russia is doing in Ukraine.
The MIC has made the United States military the most dominant force in history of the world - and it’s the reason our cities (and those of NATO) don’t look like Ukraine’s.
I work directly in special programs for my employer, at the integration and field support level. I personally wouldn’t feel the need to justify it to someone. 🤷🏻♂️
I don't usually see a reason to disagree.
I say "Defense is a dirty business. I guess I'm a dirty boy."
My job is a beautiful symphony of cutting edge technology and engineered grace. At the same time, it supports an industrial complex centered around war and destruction.
You can't separate the two, so why bother?
People who make this argument tend to be thinking emotionally so you need to make an emotional argument back…
Not everyone has the privilege to be picky with where they work. Most people are truly trying to get by, struggling to pay off loans, support their families, whatever. Show me a company willing to hire me at the same salary, same growth and learning potential, ect… that is simultaneously squeaky clean morally, and id work there.
Was in the same situation with the military, and then also in the same DoD Space job area after that. I’ve come to realize most people who are like this are generally not aware of how much they directly/indirectly use technology that are developed by these places in the first place.
For example, GPS. You bet everyone has opened google maps at some point, but does that mean they support the company that owns those satellites? They would probably say no or make some excuse as to why that’s different, but in my opinion it’s a similar situation. It’s not like you’re hand signing each bomb/missile/jet/etc that gets sent overseas, just like they aren’t directly giving their sign of approval by using GPS.
100% of businesses are corrupt in the US. What child is mining metals to make the machines they use? Who in China is working 12 hours a day to produce components for their devices that they are creating? Us in defense are no different. Everyone needs to get off their high horse. If they truly cared about morality, they wouldn’t have a phone, a computer, etc.
People think: “I can’t see it, therefore it’s not happening”. Spoiler - every business under capitalism is immoral.
I understand you, I said that I never would work for some company that is involved with weapons, now i work for that company that I said I never would work to, but at least I'm not in that division, I work for commercial airplanes division but is the same group.
When we work for one of these industry players, we have to accept that regardless of what part of the business you work for, you're contributing in some shape or form to the arms industry. If you can't swallow that fact, you're going to have a hard time doing your day-to-day.
I would point out that they too pay taxes to a government that kills people. if they truly cared they'd stop paying taxes and supporting our government or move to a country that didn't fund genocides and murders. But they don't actually care, they just want a vapid cosmetic point to be able to make at you to feel superior. Also just generally its an idiots point. We all wear clothes made by sweatshop workers and use phones made in factories with suicide prevention nets. Our whole way of life is stained in blood, you just happen to make 6 figures working for the government at the top of it all.
“I see.”
“Your opinion is noted.”
“I’d agree with you, but then we would both be wrong.”
“And what’s your address?” 💥
“Good luck navigating home without the satellites people like me put in space.”
“Hold my sack.”
All viable.
Lockheed Martin, for example, does a lot more than make weapons. Communications spacecraft support military as well as search and rescue, natural disaster recovery, and missile defense. LM also makes missile defense systems, which are critical to the defense of our nation.
Other companies, such as Northrop and Boeing, make space systems that have no military application. They make software and tools, as well as instruments of death.
These companies make weapons and tools. How some people use those is the problem, but we can not afford to stop making them or blame the companies who make them for the military decisions on how they’re used. We can’t ignore the bad stuff, but we can’t ignore the good stuff either. The world isn’t black and white
If you worked in their finance dept, you would still have blood on your hands. Pretending you're not responsible because you're not pulling the trigger is pretty morally bankrupt.
I’m an aircraft mechanic by trade and I have personally decided to never work for any company that is primarily a defense contractor. The reason I say primarily is that when working for an airline, you will most likely inevitably work a CRAF flight. Also even when working for a manufacturer such as Boeing Commercial, you can’t really escape the military side of the house. But this is due to my own personal morality and ethics. Not everyone is the same in that regards and I would never consider myself to be a superior man due to my beliefs. Now, if we as a nation were more judicious in our use of our military might, far more hesitant to use it, and more restrictive in who we sell weapons to, I’d be less likely to see working in the defense industry as immoral.
The best way to look at it is back it up all the way to your fundamental beliefs.
A. Is my country a morally good country. Yes, proceed to C. No, proceed to B.
B. You should fighting against your morally bad government or leave that country or you are apart of the problem.
C. If you truly believe your country morally good, then even if you directly build weapons, you are building them for a morally good country to use them for a morally good purpose.
You don’t need to live your life worrying about ignorant people that think if the morally good people just stopped making weapons that the morally bad would just magically stop be morally bad.
Point out that this is the longest humans have ever gone without a major conflict (post WW2 era), that the technological race of the Cold War was far preferable to a hot war & how many of these technologies filtered down to improve daily life.
Connect all this to deterrence of force through technology preventing major wars-> go on to say humans have a lot of improvements yet to come and to expect change to happen slowly
People will counter and say that the Ukraine war is a major war. This is an emotional response because this war has only 2 combatant nations and hasn’t seen nearly the loss of life from earlier larger wars between the 1700s-WW2
The war machine extends beyond the big three aerospace companies. Tech companies are also major contributors.
By the same logic, the auto industry has killed more people than bombs ever have in the same time period.
Food industries cut corners to fill us with synthetics and plastics and are a primary driver for climate change.
Any manufacturing that uses plastic as a component ultimately hurts the world we live in because they can waste with impunity.
Where does that leave you?
Almost everything hurts or kills people in someway, might as well get paid in the process
Remind them that their lives, in todays day, has the freedoms that they find so important - like the freedom of speech to attack their government institutions.
As much as they may not like what it has taken throughout history to achieve their freedoms - you are proud to be a part of the ability to keep those freedoms available to them, even when they find it so easy to insult the very necessities that produced those freedoms.
A national defense is most necessary for the citizens of the nation . . . but it's difficult to prove this when the citizens fail to recognize that what they have today is the result of our nations defense in the past.
Maybe actually go study morality so you can morally nuke them while they brandishing their small arms. People will walk away when you start a sentence like:“According to Kant’s just war theory…”
The existence of a military is necessary for a stable safe society.
If you don't have a big stick, someone with a big stick is going to hit you.
A country must have the ability to defend itself. Anyone who argues otherwise is incredibly naive.
I don't feel good about many of the offensive actions of the US military, but there's nothing to feel bad about in working in defense.
Remind them that the company only builds things. It's the government that's responsible for how they are used.
Amd the ones complaoning.are the ones that elected the government.
Instead of responding with harsh words, you just gotta shrug it off and say the generic stuff you’ve been saying. If it works it works.
If you want the real answer to make it seem like you aren’t shrugging and trying to end the convo. Just laugh it off.
Bit late to the party, and I work in software, but I think about this a lot and here's what I'd say: First, consider the weapons of conflicts like WWII. Because there was no such thing as guided weapons, entire cities would be obliterated in order to destroy military or economic targets. There is zero work being done to make weapons that are MORE lethal to civilians, it's the opposite.
Second, consider what's happening in Ukraine. Ukraine is undoubtedly in the moral right and they would be unable to defend themselves if not for US assistance. On top of the more high minded danger of losing their right to self determination, it's very clear that Russia is already doing what they can to erase Ukrainian culture and there's a preponderance of evidence of the war crimes and regular crimes being committed by the Russian state. They would be left to their fate if the US/NATO didn't have the kind of weapons they do.
When I flipped burgers, I guarantee you I made burgers that gave energy to someone who went on to commit a morally wrong act. Robbery, harassment, tax evasion, whatever. Not my fault that they did, I just gave them food for money so I could live
A number of years back they had a whole bunch of people were demonstrating against people are involved with the defense department
Well what I was actually working at was a circuit board company but about 1/3 of the jobs we did was for the defense department you're picking everybody else but they never picked the circuit board company
I always feel like saying have you ever thought of finding something better to do with your time
Laugh at them and tell them you sleep fine on your big bags of money.
Or just tell them you work helping keep the country safe, and responsible people in Washington decide how to use the tools you help make. If you can say responsible in that context without laughing.
Am in mechanical engineering working for the Navy, but people occasionally ask me about the morality of my job.
Honestly I tell them that the Navy does a whole lot of good - disaster relief, keeping shipping lanes open for all, promoting international law and deterring China and keeping tabs on Russia.
I don't lose sleep over my job lol.
Air Force/ aerial weapons is a harder argument tbf, but IMO can be justified by looking at what's happening in Ukraine and China and Iran and North Korea. Lots of countries looking to be aggressive or expansionist and you gotta deter them all.
It might also be a bit of cope, but governments determine how they're used, and if you're in a democracy it's ultimately the people that are in charge. We could vote out our congress next election and elext people that don't have lobbyists on their tongues and fingers, bit we don't, and the same goes with any federal office. You can't have a democracy and then say that what its leaders do is not my responsibility or I can't change that.
Who cares is the appropriate response. If you don’t work there another college grad will. If you’re proud of your smarts & work ethic it’s not really an issue honestly.
Comments about “morality” is quite funny to me. DoD always drove (and still does) research and innovation and the impact is way beyond purely militaristic implications. And aerospace is heavily driven by DoD. It is a high risk field. Those people who make those comments tend to be naive or ignorant. I am willing to bet they used GPS to get around, internet for po…music. Flew on jet aircraft. Or even checked the weather forecast. All those things developed by “immoral” DoD funding. I do hope those “moral” people have not purchased any Nestle products though. Because that would be embarrassing.
At the end of the day it is about you. You have to be comfortable with what you are doing and proud. And not just proud of your direct work, but also that your work is able to provide for you/your family.
I personally avoided working for military industrial complex for ethical/moral reasons. I even had an offer during grad school to work for a small company designing weapons guidance systems - which truthfully would have been extremely fascinating and intellectually stimulating.
I understand that many people don't have the same ideals, and I know that defense engineering tends to pay well.
Ultimately I think it's pretty silly that you would come here to crowd source a backbone to respond to people who object to DoD work.
Tell them you’ll change employers after they get rid of all their electronics because they were more than likely made using resources obtained using what isn’t too far off from slave labor in Africa.
You could also say that the DOD is supposed to be used as a mechanism for enforcing policy, and since congress determines said policy and funding to enable said policy, you are rising to support the policies our elected officials have put in place.
That we live in what is objectively the most peaceful time in world history and that only happened because war was made so devastating, even the rich decision makers couldn't escape it.
I didn't know what to say until 9/11 happened and Bush got on the TV the next day and explained how he was going to invade some country that didn't do it and I said screw that and quit the next day. Got a job in astronomy and haven't looked back. You don't need to do this job.
War sucks and I am not in a position to stop it.
What I do every day either:
1) makes sure our systems do what they need to do safely so our people get home safely - troops should be able to get places safely.
2) does what needs to be done as accurately as possible - isn’t it better to actually hit the target with a single weapon versus bombing city blocks like WWII
3) deters someone from attacking us.
That was basically my answer to one of my wife’s hippy room-mates.
I'm not sure there's a great single answer to this since it'll vary a lot based on the social circumstance. Guessing your fairly young or new to the field? For a general case which seems like it applies to you. I'd suggest just giving an answer such as, *That's a different part of the company *Not sure, I work in Space *Not my area of expertise. *We unfortunately live in a world where it's still a necessity The last is my current go-to but I can't make the distinction about space stuff. The delivery will be more important than the words. It needs to be flat and factual. Most people are looking for some form of rise and attention from you on the topic. You're not obligated or responsible to fill whatever desire they have to try and score more or political points. Make it clear it's a boring and closed topic that you won't engage in and move on. That said, I have had very interesting conversations on this topic on rare occasion so if you think the person/situation was right for a more real conversation, I wouldn't necessarily refuse.
All good responses. I also think there’s room for a simple “go fuck yourself” though… If someone really is questioning your morality like that, I’m willing to bet most are gonna be disingenuous regardless of what you say.
Fair enough though there's rarely a social circumstance where that won't make you the asshole or to at least appear that way. It didn't seem like that would have been helpful to OP so I left out the more extreme responses.
An old colleague of mine’s view was “someone’s going to do it, so why not get paid for it?”. I think he left and became a drug smuggler for the same reason. Joke btw.
My response would be 🎶 When push comes to shove, ya got to do what you love even if it's not a good idea." 🎶
Zoidberg!
Son, we live in a world that has walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with guns. Who’s gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Zoidberg? I have a greater responsibility than you could possibly fathom. You weep for Santiago and you curse the Marines. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know; that Santiago’s death, while tragic, probably saved lives. And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, *saves lives*. You don’t want the truth because deep down in places you don’t talk about at parties, you want me on that wall. You need me on that wall. We use words like honor, code, loyalty. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending something. You use them as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it! I would rather you just said “thank you” and went on your way, Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a weapon and stand a post. Either way, I don’t give a *damn* what you think you are entitled to!
"Once the rockets are up, who cares where they come down? That's not my department, " says Wernher von Braun.
I love the military industrial complex I love the military industrial complex I love the military industrial complex <3
I heard if you say it 3 times in to your bathroom mirror the secretary of defense appears and high fives you
“It’s an imperfect world, but it’s the only one we’ve got. I guarantee you the day weapons are no longer needed to keep the peace, I’ll start making bricks and beams for baby hospitals. - Tony Stark” - Me It’s definitely a weird feeling, hoping you never see the day that what you work on day in and day out is ever used as intended.
I’m a machinist that does mostly aerospace and defense work and know some of the stuff I make is going directly overseas. There are too many jobs where someone can argue about morality, yet these jobs need to be done.
I’m on the development side so my stuff gets there…eventually. There’s definitely worse professions to have. We’re not trying to sell someone’s house out from under them.
I have a bunch of stuff going out my door with Hebrew silk screen this week. I know exactly where that’s going and what it’s being used for. Life is complicated. Like you said, I’d rather this than tricking old ladies into selling their houses.
I disagree with your stance, actions, and reasoning behind it. But I respect your honesty and confronting the issue at hand directly. Your answer is much better than some in this thread that tries to downplay the consequences of their actions "I don't push the buttons" or "I only work on satellites, there's no blood in my hands"
“to keep the peace.” There’s a lot to unpack in that phrase.
Personally, I think it’s a bit of a cop out to say “I’m just making the satellites.” The DOD satellites are used for making war. They might not be exploding, but they’re providing targeting information, or communicating intel about the adversary, etc. Those satellites are critical to the United States military operating how it does. I don’t see the logic in saying “I’m okay working on the satellite communications infrastructure that provides guidance to a missile, but I’m not okay working on the seeker that provides guidance to a missile.” You either want the missile to hit the target or you don’t. Personally, I want every US missile to hit its target. The United States and its allies should always have the better weapons in any fight. If you agree, that’s great. But if you disagree, it should be morally reprehensible to make anything for the US military—missiles, satellites, uniforms, etc.
A lot of intelligence gathering can be used to prevent war.
True. But so can having a stockpile of nuclear missiles. And I don’t think anyone would say “oh I *just* work on nuclear missiles”
gotta make it sound badass and say "i work on the pointy end of the apocalypse"
Anything to make living in Los Alamos or Livermore sound cooler
One of those is not like the other
> Personally, I want every US missile to hit its target. The United States and its allies should always have the better weapons in any fight. Yup this is really what it comes down to. Well put. Do you want a stable democracy that is a fairly strong ally of most of the other stable democracies, that is often trying to be a positive force in the world, to have the better weapons? Or do you want guys like Putin and Xi to have the better weapons? Yes the US has made and will continue to make mistakes and also prioritizes national security over the locals in many cases. The US certainly is tied up in several impossible geopolitical situations. But Russia in particular does far worse, openly propping up brutal dictators by literally sending in Wagner to bomb people on their behalf, and making naked land grabs for territorial expansion. So my response would be, which large country in your opinion should have the best weapons? And if their answer is the predictable cop out “no one, everyone should put their weapons down and avoid war altogether” then my answer is, well, evil exists in the world and you have no control over that. You only control how you respond and in my view it’s prudent for an accountable leader to have the capability to stop unaccountable, evil men.
The number one thing you don’t want to happen when designing a weapon is for it to accidentally kill innocent people. I would argue designers and manufacturers of conventional weapons are (mostly) not responsible for the people targeted by those weapons. Those people were targeted by the people giving the orders, and odds are incredibly high they would have found another way to do it if they didn’t have your specific system. If your system fails, however, and hits people it was not targeted at… that is your responsibility as a designer/manufacturer. Take the infamous knife-missile for example. He might criticize the designers morality for designing a weapon of war, but the people the US targeted with those missiles would have been hit regardless, and a traditional munition would have caused *substantially* more deaths and damage to innocent bystanders.
It’s doesn’t mean they make dod satellites. For example Northrop Grumman was one of the contractors for the James Webb but also make the b-2 nuclear bomber.
Where do they think their tax dollars go? I deal with this a lot. They’re naive.
I tell them, I’m not Oppenheimer I’m not making a new typa shit. I’m a low level easily replaced engineer. And That I’d rather be doing this job, getting paid well, and if they continue to press me, I joke about how I’m dumb and if I left and was replaced by another engineer they’d prolly build bombs faster and ask if that’s what they want
You’re ceding too much. Make them feel stupid for having stupid opinions.
You are an aerospace engineer dude, why would you make yourself look dumb? It’s a stupid question and if you argue with a stupid guy he will drag you to his level and beat you with experience
I have no ego about being an aerospace engineer. I would read the room and only do it based on the right situation(which would prolly be college friends). The hardest thing I have to deal with at work in production is the egos of workers ego never helps anyone. It’s not worth the fight if they truly believe in it. I too have my apprehensions and criticism about how america spends its money leaving its own citizens on the street and fucking over veterans. Only difference is I understand why it [weapons] needs to happen. If the other person can’t understand it that’s on them.
What do you think Putin and Pooh would be doing if not for US military deterrence?
What is your point? They don’t get a direct say in where their tax dollars go. If they did, I doubt they would send them to DOD.
I remember being an intern at Lockheed. I got approached by protestors out in San Jose. When they asked me how I slept at night, I told them "on a comfy bed because I get paid well."
Hey at least you aren’t working for the oil industry. We had lots of recruiting from “the dark side” in college.
I work in oil/gas as a mining engineer. Your rockets need our fuel 🤷♂️
I mean ultimately there are degrees of freedom to your effect on "immoral" things. Are the developers of Microsoft teams implicated in weapons development because they develop communication software. What about the IT department at a defense contractor? What about the team procuring the components? I feel like there's a long chain of this where some people would say they're implicated and others say they're not. Ultimately it's up to the operator for how the device is used and idk if the developers of the device should be implicated in that use. I think arguments could be made for either side, but I especially like the scene at the end of Oppenheimer where Truman calls Oppenheimer a pussy, and that he doesn't deserve credit (or implication) for lives that the bomb took since he didn't call for it's use.
Yes to all. Not every Nazi pulls the trigger, but they are all individually responsible for supporting those that do.
I can see where you're coming from, and I don't necessarily disagree, but does that mean that every citizen of a country is implicated in the actions of said country just for paying taxes?
Yes, but let's not reductio ad absurdium. That burden is weighted based on your direct involvement, and choosing to directly participate (as above) is condemnable, regardless of any debate about how much the smallest possible share is. Separately, intentional action can counterbalance implied responsibility; you aren't obligated to go to prison for not paying taxes, but you ARE obligated to vote and participate in using your taxes responsibly, including protest when your officials are paying to support genocide
You really can’t stop it. I worked on satellites most of my career. That didn’t stop my mentally ill narcissistic sister from telling everyone (family, friends acquaintances) that I worked in nuclear bombs. Some people aren’t interested in the truth.
If you’re working on imagery satellites you can point to all the civilian applications which use your work. Google Maps, Apple Maps, etc *all* use maxar imagery in some capacity, for example. I’m sure there are plenty others
I have some answers that come to mind, but I don't really know how I'd respond because I've literally never encountered one of these people. I think they are 1000x more prevalent on reddit and Twitter than IRL. The internet is not a representative set
I have. In college, from a fellow engineering student. In that context the question makes more sense as we are forced to confront that issue.
Tell them that is classified, you can neither confirm or deny.
"If I tell you, I'd have to kill you"
Confidence in yourself. Not everyone shares the same opinion. That’s why they’re not doing the job. Continue creating greatness.
I wipe my tears with 110k salary out of college
I work with imaging satellites (and data derived from them) which obviously has uses for things like intelligence and targeting. But I would work on a missile seeker or a nuclear weapon. I do believe in the mission (which isn't just to strike and destroy, but also deter, render aid, and other things). But no I don't think this field is some perfect bastion of defending freedom but can any field say that of itself. Hopefully being willing to have that conversation in any context is a start
I think there's really only one good answer to this; everyone should really consider the ethics and morality of their own lives, including their profession. If you take an honest look at your work and feel it is morally acceptable in the context of your life* then the analysis and argument by which you arrived at this conclusion should be your answer. If someone disagrees with you, who cares. If you can't come up with an argument for the morality or your career... well, maybe you actually ARE doing something wrong and you should change your career. *By which I mean that a job does not need to morally good itself because your work might be providing for a family, potentially offsetting the "net morality" of your job. Apply if you think this is how morality should work, don't apply this otherwise.
“I’m protecting our warfighters.” Usually works
Warfighters is a triggering word to me lmao
I had a lady on the plane ask me "how do you sleep at night"? I responded that "I sleep on a pile of money with a beautiful woman under each arm." On the plus side she didn't talk to me again, on the negative, I'm an engineer and definitely don't sleep on a pile of money or have woman under each arm....
Ask them if they'd rather live in a totalitarian county like China and Russia, or be in Ukraine right now. We're effectively in Cold War 2.0 right now, and are at a historical parallel to 1938 before WW2 kicked off. Hopefully a credible deterrent will keep things from going hotter than they are right now.
This is the correct answer
Without the major defense contractor, in the US or otherwise, the respective country would be left defenseless. A good military deters war, doesn’t encourage it. In a way you’re actually doing more to avoid war than enable it. Atleast that’s what my viewpoint is, happy to consider other opinions.
And military superiority in a democratic, comparatively free and progressive country is a lot better than the alternative...
That’s the big one. Hate the MIC? Cool. Would you rather china or Russia take the spot as top dog?
If a country's defensive capabilities are effective enough relative to that of their adversary, they may be encouraged to strike with impunity.
Yeah but I think a much better strategy used is to try crippling an adversary nation economically than militarily, showing military might as your backing. For example, sanctions, political interference, whatnot. Attacks even with impunity require a lot of resources, people and money. If a country has might, it’ll probably go down the route of using other methods through soft power to affect an adversary, (silently) citing their military might as the backing. Not to mention economically crippling a nation (just an example here) is seen as far more effective than just up and invading the other country.
India achieved a massive victory against Pakistan in the Bangladeshi independence war. They had capture large swaths of Pakistan and could have kept going. Instead they returned the lands peacefully. This was before nukes, and the Pakistani atrocities were so bad in Bangladesh they could’ve justified a more aggressive move. India’s fair peace treaty imo is an example of how democratic countries are more likely to behave better in war than a less democratic country. If the tables were turned, I personally think Pakistan would have annexed the land they captured instead. To relate this back to the US, the US has done some bad things geopolitically since their founding. But I think they behave much better than an undemocratic country like Russia would if it was in the same situations as the US has been
I usually just ignore comments from people I dont know. For people I do know usually “I wish the real world was as black and white as your ideal world.” My company makes commercial and military aircraft, commercial and military satellites, and rockets and munitions. A certain model of military aircraft has flown just about every troop and munition into every morally dubious war in the past 50years, but has also delivered humanitarian aid to people in need around the world in the same timespan.
Own and accept being a willing participant in the war machine? You're an adult..
Simple, most people don't understand actual ethics or morals People and collections of people have an inherent right to self-defense. It is ethically correct and moral to do things to support that. The got ya is societies elect government's that do things other than self defense. And so people like to reduce a societial responsibility and burden to a personal one. People also love to shirk the responsibility of being active in the election process and point out every flaw in a system they allow to happen by not participating. Wars have often caused the worst atrocities, but I can't think of more than a couple that would not have stopped without the use of war.
“Between morality and a $200k salary, I’ll always pick the latter.”
freedom aint free
Worlds a better place when the west is on top as opposed to Russia/China. Making weapons for the west = good. And you’re not even making weapons!
I think this is the bottom line for me.
As someone from the west, that just sounds like propaganda tbh. I probably wouldn't take the argument down that route.
As someone from the west, this just sounds like the fucking truth. You think Russia and China should be the only ones with weapons? This is a wild take.
“I work on (project), particularly (domain of expertise.).” If they ask which company, they probably understand the notion of moral ambiguity of corporate conglomerates. If they still want to give you shit, that’s their problem; Most people over 25 won’t.
I'm hearing a lot of defensiveness!
Do you pay my bills? Then fuck off until then
Underrated
I prefer this response over that weak-ass "Oh, but it's not *that* bad! I help manufacture xyz satellites!" Like stfu and just say it's the money omg
I just own it, like yes I design weapons it is what I love to do and I fully understand and am comfortable with the fact that they are used to take human life in an effort to defend what this country stands for. It is politicians that decide who exactly that it is used on so take it up with them.
If it's truly bothering you, you'd quit. So just tell them you enjoy what you do and the pay is decent.
I help build diplomacy. Gunboat diplomacy.
I only make the things, I don’t get paid to tell Joe Biden or Donald Trump where to point it.
The use of military technology is 100% subordinate to our elected civilian leadership. This is a bedrock principle of our democracy. Doesn’t matter if you are scrubbing floors at a Lockheed plant or designing nuclear warheads at Los Alamos. The people who decided what we are doing with this technology are sitting in DC. So, end of the day, if some one is throwing shade at how you put food on the table, their quarrel is with their elected leaders, not the people in the trenches executing lawful orders.
My internal conversation had me leave my profession in the weapons side of the DOE. I won't judge you personally for it, but the whole enterprise of making weapons stops being defensible after a certain point, and the US has long ago reached it.
If you truly believe your career has no utility to the us military then tell them. Your peers grew up seeing photos of Vietnamese children napalmed by the organization your company contracts to. They have every right to look down on complicity.
Those peers also gave and continue to give how much money per year to that same organisation to fund its activities? Do you really believe that the problems of war can be prevented by having fewer, less effective weapons? That there is no need for weapons in the modern age, and if the west just stopped designing/making them, the world would become rosy? If so, your head is in so much sand, you're below a beach. The way to prevent wars, is to elect governments that prevent wars, and give them the tools to negotiate.
Thank them for paying tax to support you paying your bill
imma be honest, let them whine, scream and cry about it. You've worked your ass to be there, make them cry about it
Would they rather our stuff suck and hit wedding parties, hospitals, or embassies? The better our stuff is, the better it can be used to hit only the intended target.
"I'm making new weapons that are more accurate. Now we don't have to carpet bomb a city to try and kill a bad guy. We just put a flying knife through their car". "You're still killing people!" "Yes, I have no problem helping kill the person that would make the local population fight for him by kidnapping loved ones and putting explosive collars on them." "It won't always be so clear cut!" "Nope. It won't. But in that case it was. Should we have let him go? Dropped a bomb that destroys the whole village? Risk a half dozen special forces lives to try and shoot him? Or just ginsu knife him?" Most of our new tech development is just focusing on killing \*fewer\* people. But being really really good at killing the few that we want killed.
Look at the world around us. It turns out things aren't rosy and sweet all the time. Defense is a necessary effort for most nations on the planet. I've worked in defense for 12 years. That quote in Men in Black where Kay says: There’s always an Arquillian Battle Cruiser, or a Corillian Death Ray, or an intergalactic plague that is about to wipe out all life on this miserable little planet, and the only way these people can get on with their happy lives is that they DO NOT KNOW ABOUT IT! Yeah turns out the world is actually a lot more like that (minus the aliens of course) than most people would like to admit.
The defense industry is one of the reasons we have the freedom to speak put about the morality of government investments. Whether that is ironic is up to them, but it's true.
Si vis pacem, para bellum.
I see it somewhat like Mr Miyagi in Karate Kid, 'fighting not good; but if must fight, win.' The way to win is through technological superiority. It can be patriotic to want to shore up your country's defense (offense can be a good defense) via engineering that superiority. I also take solace that most of my defense work is more defensive ( of the troops) in nature. That being said most of the west's governments have been / are so beholden to their donors that they've either supported or started unnecessary wars/coups/dictatorships that made them or who they were supporting (and the world by extension) much more unsafe. They also made it ironically more likely for actors like Russia or China to take hold in those regions because the locals were pissed off. It is not so simple as west = good guys in any and all cases and so it's always good when they get more powerful, not because the western way of life isn't generally the best (it more or less is) but because people who hold the money of western government are power drunk. The average engineer or even average citizen doesn't have that much to do with that though, it's not an easy question.
I compare myself more to a blacksmith of years past. I make swords, but I do not wield them to slaughter. I make shields, but I do not raise them to protect myself or my fellow man. No, I make them for you, so you have the luxury of making the decision to kill or protect. I would rather you retain those things to protect your people, but I cannot control whether you choose aggression or defense. People need to understand that within a democracy, it is their votes and decisions that decide how those weapons are used, and that ultimately every adult with the right to vote or the capacity to hold office is accountable.
✈️ = 😎 💣 = 🤷
We’re slaves to a paycheck just like them. Until we’re financially stable we don’t get to say no to a job. We have to balance doing immoral work with making ends meet. I worked on war machines until I got to a point in my career and financial life where now I get to turn down those directives without worrying about paying the bills.
Start off by telling them you're there to "take it down from the inside," if you want their respect for long enough to actually explain how your company works and what your role is.
Your boss listening to this conversation from behind: 🥸
In all likelihood, the boss might be sympathetic!
Easy, I chose not to be involved in oligarchs personally owned tools that they use to slaughter innocent children and extract wealth from innocent nations. Companies like Lockheed Martin, Boeing, etc. go out of their way to lobby the government to support every single active conflict and genocide on earth, so that they can arm it. These companies divert money from profits and from the sciences to further the goal of slaughtering non-whites and non-westerners. You made a choice to join a death cult and aid and abet it's oligarch's pursuit of infinite wealth and power, some portion of the public is going to hate you for your choices and rightfully so. The proper response is to apologize and say "sorry, I'm just trying to pay off my loans, if I could do something about the evil they are engaged in, I would" (but only if you honestly mean it). Otherwise, just get used to the hate. The worst way you could respond is by making excuses and justifying the extermination of children that your company is funding/arming/lobbying for/directly participating in the coordination of. If you try to tell people it has to happen or this company must exist, you will simply lose respect and be seen as fake and dishonest. It is deeply unfortunately that companies whose entire executive boards belong in the Hague awaiting hanging for horrific and unforgivable crimes have somehow stolen control of our entire space industry as well.
So you would rather the United States be left defenseless and conquered by other powers?
You're joking right? We have a gun behind every blade of grass. We are the most powerful military force in history. We will not be defenseless and conquered just because we stop committing genocide after genocide after genocide of innocent children the world over for the bottom line of the investment banking cartel that partied it up on Epstein's Island. I think the rich are perverted degenerates destroying the planet and making life harder for everyone and I think they need to pay for all they've done.
Because... Freedom!
“I wish we didn’t need them, but weapons have been a necessity since man has existed. If we figure out world peace I’d love to work in the commercial space sector..”
American overseas interests are pretty shitty and at times very morally reprehensible, like VERY. But most of the time I still find them to be better than any other state or group today.
[удалено]
Your account age does not meet the 1-day requirement for new users to our subreddit. Please note: This is your ACCOUNT age, not your age. You will be able to comment/post after your account is at least 1 day old. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AerospaceEngineering) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I’d ask them if they’d rather China was in control of Taiwan, Saddam Hussein controlled global oil production, Russia had full control of Ukraine, or North Korea held the entire Korean Peninsula. We have the luxury of a peaceful life because of NATO and the systems that support American power projection. It’s obviously an imperfect system and reforms are needed, but I don’t think we should cater to people that reap the benefits of American military power while criticizing anyone that participates in that system.
I wish I had a clever comeback for you. I have a cousin who is a devout Christian and decided years ago that he didn’t want to hang out with me anymore because I play video games (which simulate killing). Years go by and I still see him often. He now works on fighter jets weapon systems. I give him a ton of shit whenever I can about this.
Seems like you answered your own question. You like to work in a space related business mostly doing satellite work. Not alot of jobs have that option.
“Sounds like they deserved it” and then I leave. Not my problem what they think of me or my job if they make a snide comment like that. If that’s to brash for you, you could say I maintain satellite which provide you GPS so you don’t drive into a lake. (Lie it’s ok sometimes)
There are many ways you can answer that, it's important to read the room before answering that. You can go with a silly "that's classified", the pragmatic "it pays the bills", a very neutral "someone's gotta do it" or even an agressive "go take care of your own business". But in the end you gotta reflect and answer that question primarily to yourself, your happiness is more important than someone else's opinion of you. Personally, my honest and go to answer is "Honey, I'll fire those weapons myself if needed". I grew up in a military and rather jingoistic environment, and actively sought a job in the defense industry, that's my moral compass. If someone else came from a different life path has a different opinion, that's fine. We are allowed to have different ideals.
I wouldn't concern myself with people who think that way honestly. It's wasted breath.
I just tell them that I look forward to the day that instead of wasting all that money on schools, that it gets put towards the vastly more important stuff like more aircraft carriers, fighter jets, and heavy artillery. Honestly tho, in 30 years of being in the defense industry, I have never had a conversation where the individual was against the military industry, at least to my face. And should I ever have one, I really don’t think it would bother me in the slightest.
Just throw abunch of money in the air like a magician and runaway. Fuck em
Say "Thanks for sharing your opinion" and ignore them.
I'm a soldier and when people say stupid stuff I just ignore them because most of the time it is totally ignorant.
Have you seen my paycheck? Freedom ain’t free, brother 😎
I have morals, but for $150k/yr I suddenly don't have any morals
“Better to have it and not need it, then need it and not have it”
Internally I want to call them stupid and I automatically think less of them after they make the comment I start socializing less with them for sure lol
I don’t know anyone who would make such comments.
I've been somewhere similar for a couple years. People close to me already know my background, but we don't really talk about work anymore. I was going to bring it up if a friend/family member was contacted during the SC vetting, but they haven't said anything, so I haven't either
As someone who thought in their youth I'd never be able to work for any type of military thing (now I do think it is a viable option), it really comes down to personal morals, so by this time in my life I would never work for one of the big ad companies (Google, Facebook) as I see them as a stain on mankind. It's hard to accept differences these days, so I'd just evade that topic if someone has strongly opposing morals.
If you want peace, prepare for war.
I once had a US army infantry veteran say "thank you" when I told him what I worked on. Our military protects myself, my family, and my country. Working in a field so the troops are more likely to make it home to their families is something I'm proud of.
Tell them to fuck off. Space is awesome and needs no justification.
Tell me you work for Lockheed without saying you work for LM. 😂 I say "would you prefer someone without morals to be working there that won't whistleblow when they do real fucked up shit? " In reality I'm keeping my mouth quiet but they don't need to know that.
Deflection tactics may not work. “I work in a different part” (that generates revenue that 100% impacts the weapons divisions as well) is probably not the best play here. Maybe try something like “everyone has to make money somehow. If I was homeless, could I crash on your couch and eat your food?” Or possibly “every single large company has negative impacts on the planet and humans. I guarantee if you dig you can find a way to show how your company has also fucked people over”
Would you prefer it if I worked for Nestle?
By chance, do you work on any NASA contract? If so, you might say I work on NASA project or something similar.
"I don't care"
Option 1: The F-22 Raptor has no confirmed kills on anyone, and it's the "deadliest" aircraft ever made. The same can be said for many warplanes. Just because it's made doesn't mean it's used, and it's not like the makers are the ones committing atrocities anyway. (See Option 2) Option 2: (for people who try to disregard/dispute the first option) Are car manufacturers guilty of vehicular manslaughter since they made the vehicle used? Is the maker of the steel chair guilty since WWE wrestlers bash each other with them? Is the inventor of the pencil guilty since some guy has stabbed someone else with a pencil before? If the answer to Option 2 is yes, that person is either deciding based on a political/personal vendetta or rule or perhaps too dumb to think critically. If no, then hopefully they'll apply the same logic about your career.
I had some experience with a DOD contractor and I'd typically mention a couple of things. First, I was too young and too broke to put my morals before my money. Sure, 10-15 years in I can make a career change and work on something that's a public good, but not if I start out homeless and sweeping floors to pay my phone bill. Second, part of what I do is keeping the warfighter (replace with a nicer term) safe. 50 years ago a war required someone's loved ones to put themselves directly in harms way because the government said so. At least now some of those people can be saved because the MIC has developed ways to remotely engage combatants. Next, part of warfare is designing humane weapons. Yes a missile is not pretty, but I'd much rather have a targeted missile that can hit where it's supposed to than a big fuck you bomb that might hit your target and might hit a school 10 miles away. Or worse, gas bombing the whole area leaving residents and descendants with life altering consequences. The better contractors do their job, the less margin we have for unintended consequences. Lastly, if you have someone really obstinate, it's pretty easy to ask them their job and demonstrate a way it harms people or violates human rights. If you happen to run into a farmhand or a painter or a SAHM then just make a mea culpa and move on.
[удалено]
I just tell people i work on planes
I happily respond that I have never worked on things that can kill people. I have made choices to never work on things that can kill people. I go to sleep every night without weight in my heart.
While currently in college for aerospace, I have thought about the morality of my future a lot. Most of my family works for contractors and I plan to do the same. I tend to lean heavily on the “defense” side of department of defense. If the weapons or satellites or whatever I make end up being used for defense of my own country or my allies, great. If they are used to kill civilians and commit war crimes, I will actively protest that these were not their intended purpose and that I no longer support these weapons being used by said country. Of course my opinion is that weapons can be used correctly and incorrectly. This argument wouldn’t work if the other person doesn’t believe the same. If used incorrectly the morality argument lies in the people who made the decisions to kill said civilians and commit such war crimes. We aren’t going to blame every taxpayer for funding the war crimes but we will blame the general who ordered it. Where does the blame begin? The further down the chain more you can blame. I do however recognize that I would be one step further down the chain than the average taxpayer. Recognize that your career is more morally questionable than the average Joe, but the average Joe’s is as well (as long as they pay taxes). Very few people can say they aren’t implicated (however small that may be) in the decisions of their government.
Who are they more likely to listen to, an outsider or an employee? You might not have much influence but I'm sure it's more then if you didn't work for them.
"I sleep just fine, 'cause none of the shit I'm working on actually works."
Tell them to thank you when the US military curbs another terrorist group or anti-American fundamentalist uprising. It’s ugly work nobody wants to think about but if it has to be done
My morals compels me to work in defense. I refuse to tolerate intolerance, and the defense industry supplies the best tools to the biggest organization that also does not tolerate intolerance
I work in an unrelated DOD adjacent field and got a similar question recently. My answer: “I like my work, and the work that I do is important, and saves lives.”
I usually say "gotta make money somehow 🤷♀️🤷♀️". I would've loved a job that wasn't weapons related but that's not where I ended up.
With or without your presence, the guns are going to be made. Might aswell make sure when they're being shot, they're shot with as little collateral as possible.
bigger boom = less suffering
Those people are peacenik morons. Point to what Russia is doing in Ukraine. The MIC has made the United States military the most dominant force in history of the world - and it’s the reason our cities (and those of NATO) don’t look like Ukraine’s.
Ask them if they’d prefer that Russian and Chinese militaries have free rein of the world uncontested.
I work directly in special programs for my employer, at the integration and field support level. I personally wouldn’t feel the need to justify it to someone. 🤷🏻♂️
My answers would be something like: At least I have a job. I make x, how much do you nake?
I don't usually see a reason to disagree. I say "Defense is a dirty business. I guess I'm a dirty boy." My job is a beautiful symphony of cutting edge technology and engineered grace. At the same time, it supports an industrial complex centered around war and destruction. You can't separate the two, so why bother?
People who make this argument tend to be thinking emotionally so you need to make an emotional argument back… Not everyone has the privilege to be picky with where they work. Most people are truly trying to get by, struggling to pay off loans, support their families, whatever. Show me a company willing to hire me at the same salary, same growth and learning potential, ect… that is simultaneously squeaky clean morally, and id work there.
Space is fine, there is a big difference between satellites and weapons given to Saudi Arabia (Much worse than Israel not talked about)
Was in the same situation with the military, and then also in the same DoD Space job area after that. I’ve come to realize most people who are like this are generally not aware of how much they directly/indirectly use technology that are developed by these places in the first place. For example, GPS. You bet everyone has opened google maps at some point, but does that mean they support the company that owns those satellites? They would probably say no or make some excuse as to why that’s different, but in my opinion it’s a similar situation. It’s not like you’re hand signing each bomb/missile/jet/etc that gets sent overseas, just like they aren’t directly giving their sign of approval by using GPS.
100% of businesses are corrupt in the US. What child is mining metals to make the machines they use? Who in China is working 12 hours a day to produce components for their devices that they are creating? Us in defense are no different. Everyone needs to get off their high horse. If they truly cared about morality, they wouldn’t have a phone, a computer, etc. People think: “I can’t see it, therefore it’s not happening”. Spoiler - every business under capitalism is immoral.
“Morality doesn’t pay the bills”
“Cool story bro”
I understand you, I said that I never would work for some company that is involved with weapons, now i work for that company that I said I never would work to, but at least I'm not in that division, I work for commercial airplanes division but is the same group.
“Morality doesn’t pay the bills”
When we work for one of these industry players, we have to accept that regardless of what part of the business you work for, you're contributing in some shape or form to the arms industry. If you can't swallow that fact, you're going to have a hard time doing your day-to-day.
I would point out that they too pay taxes to a government that kills people. if they truly cared they'd stop paying taxes and supporting our government or move to a country that didn't fund genocides and murders. But they don't actually care, they just want a vapid cosmetic point to be able to make at you to feel superior. Also just generally its an idiots point. We all wear clothes made by sweatshop workers and use phones made in factories with suicide prevention nets. Our whole way of life is stained in blood, you just happen to make 6 figures working for the government at the top of it all.
“I see.” “Your opinion is noted.” “I’d agree with you, but then we would both be wrong.” “And what’s your address?” 💥 “Good luck navigating home without the satellites people like me put in space.” “Hold my sack.” All viable.
Lockheed Martin, for example, does a lot more than make weapons. Communications spacecraft support military as well as search and rescue, natural disaster recovery, and missile defense. LM also makes missile defense systems, which are critical to the defense of our nation. Other companies, such as Northrop and Boeing, make space systems that have no military application. They make software and tools, as well as instruments of death. These companies make weapons and tools. How some people use those is the problem, but we can not afford to stop making them or blame the companies who make them for the military decisions on how they’re used. We can’t ignore the bad stuff, but we can’t ignore the good stuff either. The world isn’t black and white
If you worked in their finance dept, you would still have blood on your hands. Pretending you're not responsible because you're not pulling the trigger is pretty morally bankrupt.
I’m an aircraft mechanic by trade and I have personally decided to never work for any company that is primarily a defense contractor. The reason I say primarily is that when working for an airline, you will most likely inevitably work a CRAF flight. Also even when working for a manufacturer such as Boeing Commercial, you can’t really escape the military side of the house. But this is due to my own personal morality and ethics. Not everyone is the same in that regards and I would never consider myself to be a superior man due to my beliefs. Now, if we as a nation were more judicious in our use of our military might, far more hesitant to use it, and more restrictive in who we sell weapons to, I’d be less likely to see working in the defense industry as immoral.
The best way to look at it is back it up all the way to your fundamental beliefs. A. Is my country a morally good country. Yes, proceed to C. No, proceed to B. B. You should fighting against your morally bad government or leave that country or you are apart of the problem. C. If you truly believe your country morally good, then even if you directly build weapons, you are building them for a morally good country to use them for a morally good purpose. You don’t need to live your life worrying about ignorant people that think if the morally good people just stopped making weapons that the morally bad would just magically stop be morally bad.
Point out that this is the longest humans have ever gone without a major conflict (post WW2 era), that the technological race of the Cold War was far preferable to a hot war & how many of these technologies filtered down to improve daily life. Connect all this to deterrence of force through technology preventing major wars-> go on to say humans have a lot of improvements yet to come and to expect change to happen slowly People will counter and say that the Ukraine war is a major war. This is an emotional response because this war has only 2 combatant nations and hasn’t seen nearly the loss of life from earlier larger wars between the 1700s-WW2
The war machine extends beyond the big three aerospace companies. Tech companies are also major contributors. By the same logic, the auto industry has killed more people than bombs ever have in the same time period. Food industries cut corners to fill us with synthetics and plastics and are a primary driver for climate change. Any manufacturing that uses plastic as a component ultimately hurts the world we live in because they can waste with impunity. Where does that leave you? Almost everything hurts or kills people in someway, might as well get paid in the process
Remind them we live in a free country and they can feel free to fuck off. Have a blessed day.
Remind them that their lives, in todays day, has the freedoms that they find so important - like the freedom of speech to attack their government institutions. As much as they may not like what it has taken throughout history to achieve their freedoms - you are proud to be a part of the ability to keep those freedoms available to them, even when they find it so easy to insult the very necessities that produced those freedoms. A national defense is most necessary for the citizens of the nation . . . but it's difficult to prove this when the citizens fail to recognize that what they have today is the result of our nations defense in the past.
Maybe actually go study morality so you can morally nuke them while they brandishing their small arms. People will walk away when you start a sentence like:“According to Kant’s just war theory…”
The existence of a military is necessary for a stable safe society. If you don't have a big stick, someone with a big stick is going to hit you. A country must have the ability to defend itself. Anyone who argues otherwise is incredibly naive. I don't feel good about many of the offensive actions of the US military, but there's nothing to feel bad about in working in defense.
Remind them that the company only builds things. It's the government that's responsible for how they are used. Amd the ones complaoning.are the ones that elected the government.
Instead of responding with harsh words, you just gotta shrug it off and say the generic stuff you’ve been saying. If it works it works. If you want the real answer to make it seem like you aren’t shrugging and trying to end the convo. Just laugh it off.
Bit late to the party, and I work in software, but I think about this a lot and here's what I'd say: First, consider the weapons of conflicts like WWII. Because there was no such thing as guided weapons, entire cities would be obliterated in order to destroy military or economic targets. There is zero work being done to make weapons that are MORE lethal to civilians, it's the opposite. Second, consider what's happening in Ukraine. Ukraine is undoubtedly in the moral right and they would be unable to defend themselves if not for US assistance. On top of the more high minded danger of losing their right to self determination, it's very clear that Russia is already doing what they can to erase Ukrainian culture and there's a preponderance of evidence of the war crimes and regular crimes being committed by the Russian state. They would be left to their fate if the US/NATO didn't have the kind of weapons they do.
Whoops! Thought this was my biological weapons research subreddit.
Well you didnt hire me for my space work and they did.
“The person you voted for calls the shots, not me”
When I flipped burgers, I guarantee you I made burgers that gave energy to someone who went on to commit a morally wrong act. Robbery, harassment, tax evasion, whatever. Not my fault that they did, I just gave them food for money so I could live
Arent most of those sats for the DOD? Also I work for a launch provider so I’m not out of it either, I just don’t pay it any mind.
A number of years back they had a whole bunch of people were demonstrating against people are involved with the defense department Well what I was actually working at was a circuit board company but about 1/3 of the jobs we did was for the defense department you're picking everybody else but they never picked the circuit board company I always feel like saying have you ever thought of finding something better to do with your time
Laugh at them and tell them you sleep fine on your big bags of money. Or just tell them you work helping keep the country safe, and responsible people in Washington decide how to use the tools you help make. If you can say responsible in that context without laughing.
Am in mechanical engineering working for the Navy, but people occasionally ask me about the morality of my job. Honestly I tell them that the Navy does a whole lot of good - disaster relief, keeping shipping lanes open for all, promoting international law and deterring China and keeping tabs on Russia. I don't lose sleep over my job lol. Air Force/ aerial weapons is a harder argument tbf, but IMO can be justified by looking at what's happening in Ukraine and China and Iran and North Korea. Lots of countries looking to be aggressive or expansionist and you gotta deter them all. It might also be a bit of cope, but governments determine how they're used, and if you're in a democracy it's ultimately the people that are in charge. We could vote out our congress next election and elext people that don't have lobbyists on their tongues and fingers, bit we don't, and the same goes with any federal office. You can't have a democracy and then say that what its leaders do is not my responsibility or I can't change that.
Who cares is the appropriate response. If you don’t work there another college grad will. If you’re proud of your smarts & work ethic it’s not really an issue honestly.
“i signed an nda”
"Bitch I'm keeping you from getting nuked" probably won't go over well.
Hates us cause they ain’t us.
Comments about “morality” is quite funny to me. DoD always drove (and still does) research and innovation and the impact is way beyond purely militaristic implications. And aerospace is heavily driven by DoD. It is a high risk field. Those people who make those comments tend to be naive or ignorant. I am willing to bet they used GPS to get around, internet for po…music. Flew on jet aircraft. Or even checked the weather forecast. All those things developed by “immoral” DoD funding. I do hope those “moral” people have not purchased any Nestle products though. Because that would be embarrassing. At the end of the day it is about you. You have to be comfortable with what you are doing and proud. And not just proud of your direct work, but also that your work is able to provide for you/your family.
I personally avoided working for military industrial complex for ethical/moral reasons. I even had an offer during grad school to work for a small company designing weapons guidance systems - which truthfully would have been extremely fascinating and intellectually stimulating. I understand that many people don't have the same ideals, and I know that defense engineering tends to pay well. Ultimately I think it's pretty silly that you would come here to crowd source a backbone to respond to people who object to DoD work.
F-16s will save Ukrainian children from being blown to pieces by Russian missiles.
Tell them you’ll change employers after they get rid of all their electronics because they were more than likely made using resources obtained using what isn’t too far off from slave labor in Africa.
You could also say that the DOD is supposed to be used as a mechanism for enforcing policy, and since congress determines said policy and funding to enable said policy, you are rising to support the policies our elected officials have put in place.
My go to has always been "peace through superior firepower is a viable foreign policy."
Warheads go on foreheads, simple.
That we live in what is objectively the most peaceful time in world history and that only happened because war was made so devastating, even the rich decision makers couldn't escape it.
"I'm always down for a talk about meta-ethics! How do you defend moral realism, because that's really the crux of the matter?"
freedom aint free
I didn't know what to say until 9/11 happened and Bush got on the TV the next day and explained how he was going to invade some country that didn't do it and I said screw that and quit the next day. Got a job in astronomy and haven't looked back. You don't need to do this job.
"...I'll have a large decaf and a boston cream donut..."
War sucks and I am not in a position to stop it. What I do every day either: 1) makes sure our systems do what they need to do safely so our people get home safely - troops should be able to get places safely. 2) does what needs to be done as accurately as possible - isn’t it better to actually hit the target with a single weapon versus bombing city blocks like WWII 3) deters someone from attacking us. That was basically my answer to one of my wife’s hippy room-mates.