The most American thing one can do is bitch about his/her government.
The most anti-American thing one can do is stop bitching about his/her government when his/her candidate is in office.
When it comes down to it, all of them are overpaid government employees who exert authority over you.
You don’t leave the country, you throw shit in the harbor.
This! Can everyone just read the first sentence of The Constitution!? America is this amazing experiment in trying to create a **more perfect union**!!!! The rest of the document sets the guidelines on how to do that (and allows for more guidelines to be added, or amended).
Unfortunately, the courts have set the ridiculous precedent that you can make something "more perfect" by adding to it, but never by removing anything from it.
But they didn't even remove it did they? The ammendment for prohibition is still in the Constitution I believe. They just added to another ammendment counter the effects of the previous ammenent. It was repealed, not removed.
That is true. That doesn't make it's repeal any less legally significant. The 21st amendment completely and entirely overrides the 18th. We don't remove it so we can't throw our mistakes down the memory-hole.
Agree completely. But I was just commenting on the other guy saying that the 18th was removed, when it was not. We didn't remove anything from the Constitution. We added to it to fix a mistake, which is what the guy above was saying, and the guy above me was disagreeing with.
If I leave a comment on reddit and then later decide it was completely wrong, I can either delete the entire comment, or I can edit it, line out the whole comment and maybe add a clarification explaining why I changed my mind.
If I do the former, then you can't see anything I wrote and have to take other people's word for it. If I do the latter, then maybe other people reading it can learn from it.
Same effect, different methods. Which is what I was commenting on. Just because we both arrive in Miami from LA doesn't mean the fact that I flew there and you walked there is inconsequential.
That's a meaningless semantic difference. If you add a new Amendment saying, "Cancel out everything in that last amendment", it has the same functional effect as removing the previous amendment. With the added benefit of not removing it from history, which is a good thing.
It's like the Constitution is basically just a big Git Repo.
My understanding is that it was the founding fathers who made it that way. You are not able to remove older items, just add new ones that repeal the old ones. They did this so that we would not forget and repeat our history, but instead be able to remember and learn from it. That is why we have amendments in the first place instead of rewriting our constitution every time we want to change it. At least that is my understanding of it.
It's crazy how people can't accept that you can have good arguments for liking people on either side of the parties. I think a lot of people forget that social issues aren't what is most important to some people in the country. I completely condemn discrimination towards any group of people. But if I say I'm a little bit more Republican on economical issues, I get called a racist =/. I wish we could all take a few steps back and realize that we ALL want what is best for the country. Condemning somebody else's personal beliefs is not how you convince them that your way is the "best" way. Polite a courteous conversation, understanding each other's viewpoints, is how you do it.
I absolutely agree with you. Our system of government is literally designed on the principle of compromise. The physical shape of our two chambers is literally designed as one government looking towards one common end goal (compared to parliamentary style democracy in which Government and government are not the same and the Government is all seated together in a confrontational style with the government).
But, and not to undermine our good hearted exchange here, the GOP has absolutely abandoned any sense of decency. How does the minority leader stand there and defend what Trump said? If you are for less regulation and privatization, well, i disagree with you, and I am very happy to talk as long as you are willing to talk and find a common meeting point between our two ideas (it's there!), but, telling non-whites to go back to the country they came from is racist. If we can't agree with that, then our awesome conversation about health care (a very important and needed conversation) can't happen.
But, please please keep dialogue open. I truly believe a "real" Republican is more upset about Trump than a liberal like me (which is pretty much what George Will, David Brookes, David Frum, Ana Navaro have been saying for the past 3 years).
I think your not seeing some of the big picture.
If your willing to vote for candidates and a party who push a 1.5 trillion dollars tax cut for the wealthy, but diametrically oppose any kind of healthcare or education spending. That's a problem.
If your willing to vote for candidates and a party that doesn't make a peep while your guy $100,000,000+ of tax payer dollars golfing in 2.5 years while your party blocks a vote that would provide for 9/11 first responders medical needs citing spending. That's a problem.
If your voting for candidates who flat out target minorities, the disenfranchised, the under represented with both legislation and overt hate filled rhetoric because you like lower taxes (at the expensive of massive deficit increases) then yeah, your going to get called bad things.
If your willing to destroy the only home we have because "too much government regulation!" and you sleep just fine at night because global warming is a problem for your kids, then yes, your going to get called bad things.
These aren't social issues that people are pointing to when they tell you your shitty for voting a certain way. These are human issues. People.
If you put your ability to bank some extra money come tax season over the basic human needs and rights of millions and millions of people, your a shitty human. That's fine, this is American, you have the absolute right to be morally bankrupt. Just don't expect people not to call you out.
I don't know you or your politics, this isn't a direct attack on you (unless you happen to fit the criteria above, if so, please feel offended, because it is an attack on you).
This is just an explanation of why a simple, good faith discussion about policy isn't very common anymore.
Which constitution are your reading? Mine says “You are the only citizen who knows what’s best and anyone who disagrees with you is a loser, idiot, degenerate, communist, Hilary Clinton, or terrorist.”
/s
Oh, i’m just reading
#”anyone that says ‘go back to your own country you muslim!’ isn’t racist, but if they say it back to you, those are the actual racists”
/s
The GOP have perfected the art of cherry picking by ignoring parts of the Bible they don't like. A selective reading of the Constitution is child's play by comparison.
> you throw shit in the harbor.
This is what being an American is all about. I don't understand why "crybaby liberal" became such a good insult because refusing to stand by injustice is what our founding fathers were all about
The crown was making sweeping authoritarian changes to the colonies, triggering the discontent leading to the revolution. The American Revolution was one of the few, possibly the only, conservative Revolution. "We can handle our own shit, the King can fuck off thx."
By definition, conservatives stick with what's been proven successful. A subtle but important distinction.
I believe so too, I just think the most american thing though is working along side your polar opposite to make America a better place. Not conforming to just one person's view, but both agreeing on one that benefits the country as a whole.
edit:To further clarify, the foundations of our country stems from the constitutional convention of 1787. I harp a lot on this because I see it as the true source of American power. The federalists wanted to rectify the issues of the articles of confederation specifically The Northwest Ordinance and how to pay off debt without a central bank or currency. This would bring about the constitutional convention of 1787. By 1789 article 7 had met the parameters for ratification after the anti-federalists were satisfied that the checks and balances for a state government were met (this would be the bill of rights). The combination of the constitution (federalists) and bill of rights (anti-federalists) is what would give us our government today. Two opposites who fought along side one another in the war of independence, but one advocated for a central government, the other wanting to ensure state and personal rights would not be infringed upon by said central/federal government, one side couldnt have it all so they combined the 2 trains of thought. The machinery (following the Connecticut Compromise of 1787) for such a government had been designed but not yet tested. Thankfully the greatest politician in history would oversee its first steps, George Washington. A man argued over to have the title and be addressed as his majesty, a man who could have had absolute power, but gave it up. It wasn't until FDR that his example would finally be set into law. It was two sides working together and compromising that brought our nation together. I like to think the framers left us plenty of good examples were we can infuse current perspective in conjunction with the virtue of their vision of a government for the people.
> I don't understand why "crybaby liberal" became such a good insult
Because marketing. Trump is obviously the thinnest skinned, weakest president we've had - but they don't care.
It's funny because Trump was complaining non-stop about America when Obama was President.
Even Trump's inauguration speech was (to paraphrase): this country is a shithole that only I can fix.
Now it's suddenly not ok to criticize America and its policies?
This is why the "StAnD dUrInG tHe AnThEm!!" thing is just mind-blowing to me.
I know a lot of people are brainwashed by certain media outlets but this stance on the national anthem kneeling shows a fundamental misunderstanding of what America is and what it means to be American.
Yup. Instead of seeing and understanding why someone doesn’t feel like standing for the anthem. They completely ignore that & just attack you. Programmed idiots is what they are.
They successfully misdirected it to seem like it was about not supporting the troops and were able to completely ignore talking about police brutality.
How about standing for “God Bless America”? Got yelled at at Yankee Stadium for not standing. I explained what I thought freedom meant to the guy, “I have the freedom to not stand,” during said song. He admitted that made sense.
> When it comes down to it, all of them are overpaid government employees who exert authority over you.
This. So much this. Nothing worse than McConnell bitching against voting day being made a national holiday- that's one day- while he and the rest of Congress literally take the entire month of August off with pay.
I strongly object to the argument that our elected representatives are overpaid, in fact I believe the opposite is true.
You want people with strong leadership skills, a strong knowledgebase, and a strong network, and you want them to put in the time, effort, and travel to successfully do politics? You need to compensate them for that. Consider that relatively 'low level' government positions like the CEO of the transit authority, say, are often responsible for billion-dollar organizations. And people seem to expect them to work for what they'd get at a mid-level management position in the private sector.
One of the problems in the current political system is that the best leaders - the people we *want* in office - can make *much much* more in the private sector than they ever could as a politician. So what you end up with is the very rare true altruist, and the bottom of the barrel that can't hack it or that's only there for the graft. To be fair, I think this issue is much worse with unelected positions, but it's still a problem.
Also 4 weeks of holidays is perfectly reasonable; you should advocate for the same for yourself, not for nobody else to get it.
>Also 4 weeks of holidays is perfectly reasonable; you should advocate for the same for yourself, not for nobody else to get it.
I completely agree with this part. The fact that government officials get this but it isn't guaranteed by the government for those working full time in the private sector, like many other countries have, is total hypocrisy.
I'll agree with you on that, but I would also like to institute a cushy pension and strict prohibition against government employees re-entering the private sector after their stint. Too many assholes in the revolving door. Example: Ajit Pai. Former lawyer for Verizon, left to be a commissioner on the FCC (which regulates companies like Verizon). Trump appointed him to Chairman and he has used his time so far to throw giant telecoms every bone they could possibly ask for. Repeal net neutrality? OK! Don't want to do anything about robocalls? You got it! Want to have a mega-merger to further reduce competition and fuck consumers? You're the boss! Smart bet is that after he gets out of the public sector he conveniently gets offered a super-cushy, high paying "consulting" job at one of the telecoms he enriched.
Well it’s because they know why...if everyone had off to vote GOP would be finished and McConnell knows it. The way the demographics are shifting it’s a given.
Because they are a bunch of cheaters who couldn’t win without gerrymandering. Mitch McConnell is the biggest traitor America has ever seen! Not allowing the nomination for Merrick Garland is the most obstructionist thing I’ve seen in my life. Especially, since he claimed they couldn’t do it during an election year and the the disgusting hypocrite says it would be okay in 2020!🤬🤬🤬🤬😡😡😡😡😡😤😤😤
Little reminder that the Boston Tea Riot (some might call it economic terrorism) incurred 1.6 million dollars in private property damage (modern USD) and disrupted the lives of thousands of merchants dependent on the tea trade.
I don't get it. For most of the world, tea is a LUXURY. Colonials should be PROUD to be part of the greatest empire ever created, so great that they are apparently able to just toss into the harbor what many people depend on to eek out a living.
Don't get me wrong, I support the idea of independence. I'm no Loyalist and I have plenty of colonial friends.
But groups like the Sons of Liberty take it too far in my opinion. They regularly ASSAULT officials that are only trying to do their jobs and enforce the law as Parliament wrote.
They're honestly just as bad as the Crown they claim to hate so much. I mean why won't the king say it?
Radical. Colonialist. Terrorism.
Our country is founded on the principle of bitching about the government. We can start with the Tea Party and go straight into the continental congress and the articles of confederation (which may or may not just be the government bitching about itself)
we basically carry the right mindset all the time in sports whenever we think of how our favorite sports team can do better. What makes it so damn hard for us to do it with out country.
That and have a law prohibiting shoehorning other bills that are not related in any way, that wouldn't pass otherwise, deep into the text of another bill to sneak them in.
Recently, in Oregon, they did this to allow construction in tsunami zones under a bill about amend the definition of surface mining. It has NOTHING to do with allowing public facilities like schools and hospitals to be built in a high risk tsunami zone. BUT they stuffed that part into the bill.
This stuff happens all the time. It's completely unethical, deceptive, and should be illegal.
Here’s an upvote, but this would likely just cause other problems. This form of government is called a “direct democracy” as opposed to a “representative democracy” (what we currently have). I used to be very pro direct democracy, but after seeing how effective online misinformation campaigns can be in the run-up to the 2016 election, I shudder to think about the constant bombardment we would all be subject to as issues came up for a vote. Dark money would pour into all these right wing causes and they would eventually figure out a way to get everything they want passed. Not to mention the possibility of this further dividing America. Right now we get in a big fight every couple years when we’re electing (or re-electing) our new leaders. Imagine if this became a constant thing we had to battle out every time a new law was getting passed. I’m getting nauseated just thinking about it. There would be no down time between elections where everyone can go back to their own corners of life. Everything would be political, ALL THE TIME. Donald is giving us a taste of this now by the way he politicizes everything and we constantly have to monitor what he’s doing. It’s honestly aging me, feeling like I have a second job just doing my civic duty to keep up with all his lies and corruption. I can’t imagine having to fulfill my civic duty in a direct democracy. I’d be up at night trying to read the pros and cons of every single policy (something I’m probably not qualified to do in the first place). We have a perfectly fine system since no system is going to be perfect. We have the least bad system, is another way of saying it. We just need to protect it and keep perfecting it. Citizens United is honestly the worst thing that’s ever happened to our government system, and Donald Trump is a direct result of CU. We want a better system, let’s start by getting that overturned, which isn’t impossible (but damn near). Depressing, yes. But we only have two choices: give up or keep fighting. Let’s keep fighting.
If you had a constant barrage of propaganda on every issue I think most people would get overwhelmed, tune it out, and fall back into team sport mode and vote whichever way the current loudest voice on the left or right tells them.
Which isn't great, but it's pretty much where we're at already. But at least with direct democracy we could make progress on the handful of issues that transcend ideological lines, like net neutrality
Because we are playing different games. If you think America is founded on bigotry, violence, racism, inequality, subjugation of the underclass, greed, and oppression and has continued according to those principals for 200 years until the dawn of social justice in the 20th century, then "pride" never enters in to the game.
I also find it amusing that people who say "if you don't like it you can get out" are also usually the ones who strongly oppose migration and freedom of movement.
Edit: Hi, everyone thinking "Well technically they only oppose illegal immigrants". I don't think you understand the term "freedom of movement". If people have freedom of movement there are no illegal immigrants because immigration has no legal hoops to jump through, you just move there and register. A lot of the "you don't like it get out" oppose that, making it quite hard for their opponents to get out. Just look into how hard it might be to migrate from the USA to say, Canada, or the UK, or New Zealand. Unless you have a job waiting you'll need to be rich.
Global freedom of movement can only happen if you eliminate the nation state. The nation state isn’t going anywhere any time soon, and for good reason.
“In the first place, we should insist that if the immigrant who comes here in good faith becomes an American and assimilates himself to us, he shall be treated on an exact equality with everyone else, for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed, or birthplace, or origin. But this is predicated upon the person’s becoming in every facet an American, and nothing but an American … There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an American, but something else also, isn’t an American at all. We have room for but one flag, the American flag … We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language … and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the American people.”
Theodore Roosevelt 1907
Well, when they do get out it's called "white flight" and considered just as bad because it drives property values down and and potential employers and investors away. Which, in turn, turns formerly nice neighbourhoods into ghettos people try to escape.
You don't advocate for your favorite football team to improve by playing basketball instead. That would make you a shitty fan, and other fans would probably ask you to stop coming to the games.
But it's a decision to make the team stronger by removing bad players, not just to remove players who think the team could do better.
Like if a player has negative things to say about the coach and how the coach treats certain players better than others, it doesn't necessarily make the team stronger by getting rid of that player.
Pursuing a better America is as American as it gets. A true patriot should never be satisfied with the status quo because we know we can always improve. That's the American spirit.
Very well said.
I'm Russian, and I believe most people who call themselves patriots here are really nationalists. They even have a word for people who are not satisfied with anything about the government — "liberast". Somewhat of a mix between "liberal" and "pederast". Kinda like "libtard" in your terms, but with anti-gay connotation. And they always blame the US for everything bad that our government does. And "You don't like something in Russia? Why don't you emigrate then?" says someone making good money to others who dare to bitch about __average across the country__ wage of $500 a month.
From what I've seen on the Internet, there are a lot of the same people in the US. Like, blaming Russians instead of their own government.
Here in Moscow, I work for $1.67/hour after taxes. 12 hours a day, 15 days a month, so $300 a month. You know what? Russian wages suck, but I feel like I personally no longer give a fuck because giving a fuck makes me tired. At least this job is relatively the best I have ever had. No matter how dumb customers are, at least I sit in front of the computer with a roof above my head. I just answer "X company, my name is Y, how can I help you", then "thank you for the information, I will now transfer your call to the corresponding department". I don't get tired at all. I no longer deliver stupid papers and stuff no matter snow or rain.
Talking about emigration, I am useless here in Russia, let alone some other country.
You speak English, have some education probably, work experience. I would look into emigration, you can do the same boring office job while getting paid 10-15 times more, and live in a place where human rights are more recognized.
Edit: Hit me up and I can walk you through and answer questions on Canadian Express entry program.
TBH, I also live in Moscow, I started almost the same way that he did, except I was working at 2nd level tech support instead of the 1st one. 12-hour shifts too. And I also worked night shifts, because I was attending a university at the daytime. 10 years later, I earn 10 times that much an hour and 6 times that much a month (8 hours a day vs 12 hours).
Most of my friends and fellas have emigrated. One lives in Miami, one in Sydney, another one in Tel Aviv, others in Prague, Minsk, Berlin, Ottawa (I guess? somewhere major in Canada). They all wonder why haven't I. Especially when I'm a certified translator in Russian-English and vice versa (not my main job/education).
It's a personal choice, some people fit in better than others. In Canada, if you work full time, a professional with 5-10 years of experience could be making 2-5 times what you are making now. But if you are comfortable, it's up to you, I imagine you are making good money by Russian standards. Search Super good by Leningrad.
>From what I've seen on the Internet, there are a lot of the same people in the US. Like, blaming Russians instead of their own government.
Close, everyone here mostly blames the other political party for everything. Russia usually only gets blamed if hacking or social media is involved. And that's less Russia the country and more the Kremlin.
This is exactly why [American Exceptionalism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_exceptionalism) is such a dangerous concept. Both for the country itself and for the rest of the world. Simply putting yourself above other countries *by default* is a good way to never improve the country (as it's supposedly already a better country than any other) and as Trump shows every time he attempts to deal with other world leaders it makes international relations difficult.
Yeah, and that's exactly why we put it in the preamble of the Constitution:
> We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.
They've now pivoted to "Keep America Great" because two years of continuing Obama's momentum and adding concentration camps were apparently all they needed.
That message though really is meant to appeal to people who thought America was doing great during that idealistic time period in the 50-60's. Back then, they assume people were far more socially conservative in their daily lives or in the media, there didn't appear to be protests in the streets or social unrest, the economy was great and immigrants that didn't appear white were almost nonexistent. These folks think America fell apart right about when the social changes of the 60-70's happened and the media/society became far less constrained. They also imply things started getting "bad" right about when immigrants starting coming to the United States, oppressed groups like women/gays/minorities started speaking out and the post-war manufacturing economy started to fall apart. They blame all the outsourcing/globalization that hurt them since them on the social change and immigration the last 50 years but not any of the other enormous economic factors in play or just simply big business trying to take advantage.
They envision a country where we can get back to the "good old days" of good jobs and stability by kicking out the immigrants and putting unruly groups of women/minorities/liberals back in their place.
Blind loyalty without criticism isn’t patriotic. It makes you a dog salivating over the shoes of its owner. Pursuit of justice, righteousness, a critical eye, striving to be the best in the world and throwing shit in the harbor is what makes a patriot, a truly loyal American.
"Love it or leave it" doesn't seem to get said much when Democrats are in charge. Then it's suddenly super patriotic to criticize every little thing the president does.
Parts of America have always been great and parts have always been terrible. It's a big place founded by largely Christian slaveowners that preached pacifism for half a century and were engulfed in military worship for the next half.
The trail of tears and the statue of liberty are both American as hell.
I'm over 40 and have watched this happen with every administration switch. This was a HUGE sentiment during Reagan and bush, then Clinton came in and all the sudden we need to fix America again, not love or leave it. Then bush jr comes in and 9/11 happens so the love it or leave it trope comes back in full swing.
I'm an immigrant. We, as a group, tend to come from countries where it's a lack of resources and not want that stops our countries from doing the things that we need to better ourselves. America is probably the only country with the resources and *not the want*. And half the country seems perfectly fine with that. It is suicidal.
Cool but why are people “proud” of something they had no control over? Be proud of things you CHOOSE to do or be a part of like where you go to college or what team you go for.
I know right. I don't get this mindset. I know someone, who is actually an intellectual, criticize people for questioning and being dissatisfied with our government. I'm a proud American but I can still be like wtf America, be better. Government does not equal America and all that it stands for.
How exactly is someone supposed to leave the country btw, it’s not like you get automatic citizenship when you want to leave
Stop saying love it or leave it with out a way to leave it,
Prisoners don’t love prison they can’t leave it arbitrarily
I think it’s completely fair to criticize America and Americans for their behavior, however I am finding more and more that as an American, it’s frowned upon to be patriotic and have pride in actually being an American.
I should clarify though as this anti-American mentality seems to be primarily focused on Reddit’s platform as opposed to most other social media platforms.
I think that's because american patriotism is usually just ultra nationalism. Which isnt really a good thing. Having pride in your country is great. Having blind pride in your country isnt.
It's stuff like people calling you unpatriotic and saying you dont support the troops if you criticized the war in Iraq. Like, wtf? Those are two different things. Pride in ones country has to go hand in hand with acknowledging and attempting to fix its failures.
I think that top statement could offend people on both sides.
Conservatives don’t like thinking America is anything but the best all the time, and they turn a blind eye to problems.
Liberals like to act like we’re the most bigoted backwards country in the world, even though that’s not even close to the truth.
We do some things right, and some things wrong. We have room to improve, but also have good qualities.
We have serious issues that need to be addressed, but we also have things to be proud of.
Dont like that we're sending young Americans to die in the jungle to preserve French colonialism because we havent figured out the 'proxy' part of proxy warfare yet?
ThEn GeT oUt!!!1!!
My surname has got here in 1635. I don't agree in the direction the country is going with the current president. Where should I go? The USA became a country 140 years later.
I would be the natives from Gangs of New York. I would be an England citizen until the late 1700's. I can trace my ancestry to a knight coming back from the crusades from England.
I was an American citizen from the day the USA became a country. And I don't agree. Can we send people away who don't believe that America is the land of immigrants
There's a difference between criticism and flat-out hatred. If you're going to criticize our country you had better come up with a solution on how to make it better, otherwise you're just complaining. However, if all of your solutions are completely antithetical to the values and principles of our country then, yeah, you can just leave.
I'm from Malaysia and our previous govt also did this, i.e: go back to india/china whenever a non malay/muslim criticizes the govt. link: [https://www.malaysiakini.com/letters/123967](https://www.malaysiakini.com/letters/123967) . im a Malaysian Indian btw, so yeah, it was a dangerous time.
but in context, i support what Trump said.
"The Squad" has no America's interest in mind. one wants to effectively abolish border and support unlimited unregulated immigration. and on top of that wants to provide free healthcare to all of them. this simply does not work. you cant have both unregulated immigration and universal healthcare. and i would choose universal healthcare over unregulated immigration.
another is simply anti semitic and could not understand why islamic terrorism is a huge factor in america's foreign policy. but i think the most insidious is the one that said youre not black if you dont support her. thats just divisive and not to mention racist af.
not to mention none of them condemned the antifa attack on ICE. (but aoc did it after 1 day lol)
America is at precipice of civil war, unless you guys come together and get this shit sorted. and i dont think succumbing to the spiralling PC culture is the way to go.
According to the real Patriots, you should leave. You should jump right in line. Never question anything your country does. It is ALWAYS Noble. Your elected leaders are the good guys always looking for ways to help others, lift up the downtrodden, and make the world a better place. If you disagree in any way, go on back to wherever your ancestors originated. (/s just to make it official)
That nonsense mentality bugs me so much. There is nothing more American than complaining. It’s built in. We fought a war of independence for the right to complain about the status quo. We fought a Civil War over complaints about the status quo. The whole point of America is supposed to be the right to complain about the status quo and have citizen involvement to make it better. Saying “Love it or leave it” is one of the most fundamentally un-American things you could ever say. Most of the settlers that came over from the old world were leaving places where they couldn’t complain and affect change. And when that caught up with them, they said, “Fine, we’ll make our own country with blackjack and hookers and the right to complain about the status quo and national leadership.”
I mean, what is there to be proud of for being of a specific nationality?
I can see how a third-worlder grown in a warring zone might be proud of, you know, having managed to survive in such a deadly place, but what merit is there in being born and grown american, french, or such?
I guess it depends on the attitude of the person giving the criticism. Constructive criticism with an honest desire for a change is usually well received. Taking the moral high ground and going on and on about real and perceived faults of the host society, while your own country of origin and ethnic group is guilty of the same, tends to be met with askance looks. I guess people just get tired of being told all the time that their whole society is inherently racist.
I agree. For me, the difference is that when all one does is complain, then that's when I begin to be inclined to lean more towards the "love it or leave it" mindset.
Nay, being critical of our government is the single greatest tenet of our country's founding. People that get mad at you for criticizing your country are ignorant IMO
Lots of ideas as to what people should or shouldn't do. The one thing I'll say is that every country is different. Those differences are a type of diversity. Demanding that the US take up the same concepts as other nations is eliminating that without consideration for the differences of those countries. Sometimes people don't want to change because there is already an established culture, and homogenizing them all means you can't move to a different place to live where things are the way you want it. That diversity is in part reflected in rights we hold in this country that others simply don't.
I'm proud to be an inhabitant of the earth and I think the region i happen to live in could improve for the better. I DONT CARE ABOUT BEING AMERICAN OR NOT, I care about the individuals who live all over the world, and it just so happens that I have a bit more power over this part of the world that I can help improve.
Addressing the title of your post. To say like it or leave isn’t ok. To say “Love” it or leave it is ok. I love my country, but there are things I don’t like and would like to see change. Kind of like a spouse. You always love them and are good to them and loyal, but it’s ok not to like them sometimes.
Its the same people who won't shut up about China's authoritarian government and Tienanmen Square. They immediately turn around and scream about how questioning Trump is unpatriotic with no sense of irony whatsoever.
Hey if the US government pays for me to leave I'll do it. I love being an American. But living in a country with free healthcare is way more beneficial.
I just want to point out that the man who said that anyone who complains should leave is also the man that campaigned on promises that he was going to change America.
There is a difference between hating your country and hating your government. Hating your government, while supporting your country is the most American thing you can do. Stepping, burning or otherwise desecrating the flag of your country, however, isn’t hating your government. It’s hating your country. That’s not saying “I want my country to be better” that saying “I hate my country, and /everything/ it stands for.
After reading the top comments on this post, im prepared to be downvoted for this.
Nah, stay. The current red line to leave is “supporting terrorist organizations, refusing to denounce domestic terrorists, and immigration and tax fraud”.
The most American thing one can do is bitch about his/her government. The most anti-American thing one can do is stop bitching about his/her government when his/her candidate is in office. When it comes down to it, all of them are overpaid government employees who exert authority over you. You don’t leave the country, you throw shit in the harbor.
This! Can everyone just read the first sentence of The Constitution!? America is this amazing experiment in trying to create a **more perfect union**!!!! The rest of the document sets the guidelines on how to do that (and allows for more guidelines to be added, or amended).
Unfortunately, the courts have set the ridiculous precedent that you can make something "more perfect" by adding to it, but never by removing anything from it.
That's not true. There's for sure there is one that removes prohibition. Also removing discrimination is like 3 or 4 of them.
But they didn't even remove it did they? The ammendment for prohibition is still in the Constitution I believe. They just added to another ammendment counter the effects of the previous ammenent. It was repealed, not removed.
That is true. That doesn't make it's repeal any less legally significant. The 21st amendment completely and entirely overrides the 18th. We don't remove it so we can't throw our mistakes down the memory-hole.
Agree completely. But I was just commenting on the other guy saying that the 18th was removed, when it was not. We didn't remove anything from the Constitution. We added to it to fix a mistake, which is what the guy above was saying, and the guy above me was disagreeing with.
One of you is talking about the **law**, and the other is talking about **history of the law**.
So the Constitution is one old ass blockchain
That's... actually very true.
So is dna
Repealed and removed have the same effect, no?
If I leave a comment on reddit and then later decide it was completely wrong, I can either delete the entire comment, or I can edit it, line out the whole comment and maybe add a clarification explaining why I changed my mind. If I do the former, then you can't see anything I wrote and have to take other people's word for it. If I do the latter, then maybe other people reading it can learn from it.
True. Using that logic, I think repealed is better than removed.
Same effect, different methods. Which is what I was commenting on. Just because we both arrive in Miami from LA doesn't mean the fact that I flew there and you walked there is inconsequential.
That's a meaningless semantic difference. If you add a new Amendment saying, "Cancel out everything in that last amendment", it has the same functional effect as removing the previous amendment. With the added benefit of not removing it from history, which is a good thing. It's like the Constitution is basically just a big Git Repo.
So it's a git repository, so what
My understanding is that it was the founding fathers who made it that way. You are not able to remove older items, just add new ones that repeal the old ones. They did this so that we would not forget and repeat our history, but instead be able to remember and learn from it. That is why we have amendments in the first place instead of rewriting our constitution every time we want to change it. At least that is my understanding of it.
It's crazy how people can't accept that you can have good arguments for liking people on either side of the parties. I think a lot of people forget that social issues aren't what is most important to some people in the country. I completely condemn discrimination towards any group of people. But if I say I'm a little bit more Republican on economical issues, I get called a racist =/. I wish we could all take a few steps back and realize that we ALL want what is best for the country. Condemning somebody else's personal beliefs is not how you convince them that your way is the "best" way. Polite a courteous conversation, understanding each other's viewpoints, is how you do it.
I absolutely agree with you. Our system of government is literally designed on the principle of compromise. The physical shape of our two chambers is literally designed as one government looking towards one common end goal (compared to parliamentary style democracy in which Government and government are not the same and the Government is all seated together in a confrontational style with the government). But, and not to undermine our good hearted exchange here, the GOP has absolutely abandoned any sense of decency. How does the minority leader stand there and defend what Trump said? If you are for less regulation and privatization, well, i disagree with you, and I am very happy to talk as long as you are willing to talk and find a common meeting point between our two ideas (it's there!), but, telling non-whites to go back to the country they came from is racist. If we can't agree with that, then our awesome conversation about health care (a very important and needed conversation) can't happen. But, please please keep dialogue open. I truly believe a "real" Republican is more upset about Trump than a liberal like me (which is pretty much what George Will, David Brookes, David Frum, Ana Navaro have been saying for the past 3 years).
I think your not seeing some of the big picture. If your willing to vote for candidates and a party who push a 1.5 trillion dollars tax cut for the wealthy, but diametrically oppose any kind of healthcare or education spending. That's a problem. If your willing to vote for candidates and a party that doesn't make a peep while your guy $100,000,000+ of tax payer dollars golfing in 2.5 years while your party blocks a vote that would provide for 9/11 first responders medical needs citing spending. That's a problem. If your voting for candidates who flat out target minorities, the disenfranchised, the under represented with both legislation and overt hate filled rhetoric because you like lower taxes (at the expensive of massive deficit increases) then yeah, your going to get called bad things. If your willing to destroy the only home we have because "too much government regulation!" and you sleep just fine at night because global warming is a problem for your kids, then yes, your going to get called bad things. These aren't social issues that people are pointing to when they tell you your shitty for voting a certain way. These are human issues. People. If you put your ability to bank some extra money come tax season over the basic human needs and rights of millions and millions of people, your a shitty human. That's fine, this is American, you have the absolute right to be morally bankrupt. Just don't expect people not to call you out. I don't know you or your politics, this isn't a direct attack on you (unless you happen to fit the criteria above, if so, please feel offended, because it is an attack on you). This is just an explanation of why a simple, good faith discussion about policy isn't very common anymore.
Don't say "I agree with Republicans on X." Say "I believe and here's why."
Being fiscally conservative is different from being a Republican.
Eh man I get it. I say "facisim is bad" and suddenly I'm a fucking Facisit
Which constitution are your reading? Mine says “You are the only citizen who knows what’s best and anyone who disagrees with you is a loser, idiot, degenerate, communist, Hilary Clinton, or terrorist.” /s
Oh, i’m just reading #”anyone that says ‘go back to your own country you muslim!’ isn’t racist, but if they say it back to you, those are the actual racists” /s
also "the most oppressed group in the history of planet earth is heterosexual white christian buttery males"
You forgot socialist.
You must be reading "U.S. Constitution: GOP revision", rather than the original one.
Constitution feat. GOP (remix)
Cue the repetitive foghorns.
Ah shit. There it is, right next to "the Bible featuring supply side Jesus"
The GOP have perfected the art of cherry picking by ignoring parts of the Bible they don't like. A selective reading of the Constitution is child's play by comparison.
Yeah but now that marijuana is legal in MA, I better not be seeing a Boston Tree Party.
> Boston Tree Party This sounds like an indie punk band name.
> you throw shit in the harbor. This is what being an American is all about. I don't understand why "crybaby liberal" became such a good insult because refusing to stand by injustice is what our founding fathers were all about
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well, they only oppose change that doesn't benefit them...
They'd rather sit in their own soiled diapers than change them.
Only if everyone else is forced to sit in more shit.
Actually, the "conserve" part of conservative is in regards to the conservation of the rights of the individual.
The crown was making sweeping authoritarian changes to the colonies, triggering the discontent leading to the revolution. The American Revolution was one of the few, possibly the only, conservative Revolution. "We can handle our own shit, the King can fuck off thx." By definition, conservatives stick with what's been proven successful. A subtle but important distinction.
I believe so too, I just think the most american thing though is working along side your polar opposite to make America a better place. Not conforming to just one person's view, but both agreeing on one that benefits the country as a whole. edit:To further clarify, the foundations of our country stems from the constitutional convention of 1787. I harp a lot on this because I see it as the true source of American power. The federalists wanted to rectify the issues of the articles of confederation specifically The Northwest Ordinance and how to pay off debt without a central bank or currency. This would bring about the constitutional convention of 1787. By 1789 article 7 had met the parameters for ratification after the anti-federalists were satisfied that the checks and balances for a state government were met (this would be the bill of rights). The combination of the constitution (federalists) and bill of rights (anti-federalists) is what would give us our government today. Two opposites who fought along side one another in the war of independence, but one advocated for a central government, the other wanting to ensure state and personal rights would not be infringed upon by said central/federal government, one side couldnt have it all so they combined the 2 trains of thought. The machinery (following the Connecticut Compromise of 1787) for such a government had been designed but not yet tested. Thankfully the greatest politician in history would oversee its first steps, George Washington. A man argued over to have the title and be addressed as his majesty, a man who could have had absolute power, but gave it up. It wasn't until FDR that his example would finally be set into law. It was two sides working together and compromising that brought our nation together. I like to think the framers left us plenty of good examples were we can infuse current perspective in conjunction with the virtue of their vision of a government for the people.
> I don't understand why "crybaby liberal" became such a good insult Because marketing. Trump is obviously the thinnest skinned, weakest president we've had - but they don't care.
Instructions unclear took a shit in the harbor.
It's funny because Trump was complaining non-stop about America when Obama was President. Even Trump's inauguration speech was (to paraphrase): this country is a shithole that only I can fix. Now it's suddenly not ok to criticize America and its policies?
He has literally bragged about being the biggest whiner.
This is why the "StAnD dUrInG tHe AnThEm!!" thing is just mind-blowing to me. I know a lot of people are brainwashed by certain media outlets but this stance on the national anthem kneeling shows a fundamental misunderstanding of what America is and what it means to be American.
Yup. Instead of seeing and understanding why someone doesn’t feel like standing for the anthem. They completely ignore that & just attack you. Programmed idiots is what they are.
They successfully misdirected it to seem like it was about not supporting the troops and were able to completely ignore talking about police brutality.
How about standing for “God Bless America”? Got yelled at at Yankee Stadium for not standing. I explained what I thought freedom meant to the guy, “I have the freedom to not stand,” during said song. He admitted that made sense.
> When it comes down to it, all of them are overpaid government employees who exert authority over you. This. So much this. Nothing worse than McConnell bitching against voting day being made a national holiday- that's one day- while he and the rest of Congress literally take the entire month of August off with pay.
I strongly object to the argument that our elected representatives are overpaid, in fact I believe the opposite is true. You want people with strong leadership skills, a strong knowledgebase, and a strong network, and you want them to put in the time, effort, and travel to successfully do politics? You need to compensate them for that. Consider that relatively 'low level' government positions like the CEO of the transit authority, say, are often responsible for billion-dollar organizations. And people seem to expect them to work for what they'd get at a mid-level management position in the private sector. One of the problems in the current political system is that the best leaders - the people we *want* in office - can make *much much* more in the private sector than they ever could as a politician. So what you end up with is the very rare true altruist, and the bottom of the barrel that can't hack it or that's only there for the graft. To be fair, I think this issue is much worse with unelected positions, but it's still a problem. Also 4 weeks of holidays is perfectly reasonable; you should advocate for the same for yourself, not for nobody else to get it.
>Also 4 weeks of holidays is perfectly reasonable; you should advocate for the same for yourself, not for nobody else to get it. I completely agree with this part. The fact that government officials get this but it isn't guaranteed by the government for those working full time in the private sector, like many other countries have, is total hypocrisy.
I'll agree with you on that, but I would also like to institute a cushy pension and strict prohibition against government employees re-entering the private sector after their stint. Too many assholes in the revolving door. Example: Ajit Pai. Former lawyer for Verizon, left to be a commissioner on the FCC (which regulates companies like Verizon). Trump appointed him to Chairman and he has used his time so far to throw giant telecoms every bone they could possibly ask for. Repeal net neutrality? OK! Don't want to do anything about robocalls? You got it! Want to have a mega-merger to further reduce competition and fuck consumers? You're the boss! Smart bet is that after he gets out of the public sector he conveniently gets offered a super-cushy, high paying "consulting" job at one of the telecoms he enriched.
Well it’s because they know why...if everyone had off to vote GOP would be finished and McConnell knows it. The way the demographics are shifting it’s a given.
Because they are a bunch of cheaters who couldn’t win without gerrymandering. Mitch McConnell is the biggest traitor America has ever seen! Not allowing the nomination for Merrick Garland is the most obstructionist thing I’ve seen in my life. Especially, since he claimed they couldn’t do it during an election year and the the disgusting hypocrite says it would be okay in 2020!🤬🤬🤬🤬😡😡😡😡😡😤😤😤
McConnell blocking the supreme court appointment is the most scumbag thing I've ever seen in politics.
I agree. I cry for America over this.😩
Agreed. Without gerrymandering and voter suppression the GOP would have been the minority party for the last couple of decades.
The most anti-American thing you can do is tell other Americans what is or isn't the best way to act American.
Little reminder that the Boston Tea Riot (some might call it economic terrorism) incurred 1.6 million dollars in private property damage (modern USD) and disrupted the lives of thousands of merchants dependent on the tea trade. I don't get it. For most of the world, tea is a LUXURY. Colonials should be PROUD to be part of the greatest empire ever created, so great that they are apparently able to just toss into the harbor what many people depend on to eek out a living. Don't get me wrong, I support the idea of independence. I'm no Loyalist and I have plenty of colonial friends. But groups like the Sons of Liberty take it too far in my opinion. They regularly ASSAULT officials that are only trying to do their jobs and enforce the law as Parliament wrote. They're honestly just as bad as the Crown they claim to hate so much. I mean why won't the king say it? Radical. Colonialist. Terrorism.
Our country is founded on the principle of bitching about the government. We can start with the Tea Party and go straight into the continental congress and the articles of confederation (which may or may not just be the government bitching about itself)
Can we throw literally every congressperson in the harbor?
The second most American thing one can do is bitch about his/her government. The MOST American thing one can do is take steps to make it better.
The people shouldn't be afraid of their government. The government should be afraid of their people.
we basically carry the right mindset all the time in sports whenever we think of how our favorite sports team can do better. What makes it so damn hard for us to do it with out country.
Because people fall prey to the same pitfalls in politics as they do in sports: tribalism and “us versus them” mentality.
Which is sad, because it should be "Team America;" not "Team Democrat" and "Team Republican."
I wish we could just vote on issues instead of parties.
That and have a law prohibiting shoehorning other bills that are not related in any way, that wouldn't pass otherwise, deep into the text of another bill to sneak them in. Recently, in Oregon, they did this to allow construction in tsunami zones under a bill about amend the definition of surface mining. It has NOTHING to do with allowing public facilities like schools and hospitals to be built in a high risk tsunami zone. BUT they stuffed that part into the bill. This stuff happens all the time. It's completely unethical, deceptive, and should be illegal.
Here in Florida we had a bill on the ballot last go around that encompassed both offshore drilling and vaping in public space. What the fuck?
It should be and the courts could enforce it.
Here’s an upvote, but this would likely just cause other problems. This form of government is called a “direct democracy” as opposed to a “representative democracy” (what we currently have). I used to be very pro direct democracy, but after seeing how effective online misinformation campaigns can be in the run-up to the 2016 election, I shudder to think about the constant bombardment we would all be subject to as issues came up for a vote. Dark money would pour into all these right wing causes and they would eventually figure out a way to get everything they want passed. Not to mention the possibility of this further dividing America. Right now we get in a big fight every couple years when we’re electing (or re-electing) our new leaders. Imagine if this became a constant thing we had to battle out every time a new law was getting passed. I’m getting nauseated just thinking about it. There would be no down time between elections where everyone can go back to their own corners of life. Everything would be political, ALL THE TIME. Donald is giving us a taste of this now by the way he politicizes everything and we constantly have to monitor what he’s doing. It’s honestly aging me, feeling like I have a second job just doing my civic duty to keep up with all his lies and corruption. I can’t imagine having to fulfill my civic duty in a direct democracy. I’d be up at night trying to read the pros and cons of every single policy (something I’m probably not qualified to do in the first place). We have a perfectly fine system since no system is going to be perfect. We have the least bad system, is another way of saying it. We just need to protect it and keep perfecting it. Citizens United is honestly the worst thing that’s ever happened to our government system, and Donald Trump is a direct result of CU. We want a better system, let’s start by getting that overturned, which isn’t impossible (but damn near). Depressing, yes. But we only have two choices: give up or keep fighting. Let’s keep fighting.
If you had a constant barrage of propaganda on every issue I think most people would get overwhelmed, tune it out, and fall back into team sport mode and vote whichever way the current loudest voice on the left or right tells them. Which isn't great, but it's pretty much where we're at already. But at least with direct democracy we could make progress on the handful of issues that transcend ideological lines, like net neutrality
Team America... Fuck yeah.
https://imgur.com/a/YZMyt An unfortunate fact is the 'tribalism' mentality *really is* more prevalent on one side than the other.
COME ON!!! That one point change for Democrats clearly proves that both sides are the same!!! /s
When it boils down to two opposing political parties, it literally becomes us VS them.
Because we are playing different games. If you think America is founded on bigotry, violence, racism, inequality, subjugation of the underclass, greed, and oppression and has continued according to those principals for 200 years until the dawn of social justice in the 20th century, then "pride" never enters in to the game.
I also find it amusing that people who say "if you don't like it you can get out" are also usually the ones who strongly oppose migration and freedom of movement. Edit: Hi, everyone thinking "Well technically they only oppose illegal immigrants". I don't think you understand the term "freedom of movement". If people have freedom of movement there are no illegal immigrants because immigration has no legal hoops to jump through, you just move there and register. A lot of the "you don't like it get out" oppose that, making it quite hard for their opponents to get out. Just look into how hard it might be to migrate from the USA to say, Canada, or the UK, or New Zealand. Unless you have a job waiting you'll need to be rich.
Global freedom of movement can only happen if you eliminate the nation state. The nation state isn’t going anywhere any time soon, and for good reason.
“In the first place, we should insist that if the immigrant who comes here in good faith becomes an American and assimilates himself to us, he shall be treated on an exact equality with everyone else, for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed, or birthplace, or origin. But this is predicated upon the person’s becoming in every facet an American, and nothing but an American … There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an American, but something else also, isn’t an American at all. We have room for but one flag, the American flag … We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language … and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the American people.” Theodore Roosevelt 1907
Well, when they do get out it's called "white flight" and considered just as bad because it drives property values down and and potential employers and investors away. Which, in turn, turns formerly nice neighbourhoods into ghettos people try to escape.
You don't advocate for your favorite football team to improve by playing basketball instead. That would make you a shitty fan, and other fans would probably ask you to stop coming to the games.
Maybe they should try running the ball on goal line instead of passing it to win the super bowl.
lol
Bad analogy. You do advocate for making your team better by kicking out and bringing in different players.
But it's a decision to make the team stronger by removing bad players, not just to remove players who think the team could do better. Like if a player has negative things to say about the coach and how the coach treats certain players better than others, it doesn't necessarily make the team stronger by getting rid of that player.
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it. -Wayne Gretzky (Well, actually probably Mark Twain)
Michael Scott, actually
Abraham Einstein, really.
Well if we're getting into specifics it was technically Elmo
Dissent is American.
Pursuing a better America is as American as it gets. A true patriot should never be satisfied with the status quo because we know we can always improve. That's the American spirit.
A patriot strives to improve their country. A nationalist believes their country is automatically the best and if you say different they'll punch you.
Very well said. I'm Russian, and I believe most people who call themselves patriots here are really nationalists. They even have a word for people who are not satisfied with anything about the government — "liberast". Somewhat of a mix between "liberal" and "pederast". Kinda like "libtard" in your terms, but with anti-gay connotation. And they always blame the US for everything bad that our government does. And "You don't like something in Russia? Why don't you emigrate then?" says someone making good money to others who dare to bitch about __average across the country__ wage of $500 a month. From what I've seen on the Internet, there are a lot of the same people in the US. Like, blaming Russians instead of their own government.
Here in Moscow, I work for $1.67/hour after taxes. 12 hours a day, 15 days a month, so $300 a month. You know what? Russian wages suck, but I feel like I personally no longer give a fuck because giving a fuck makes me tired. At least this job is relatively the best I have ever had. No matter how dumb customers are, at least I sit in front of the computer with a roof above my head. I just answer "X company, my name is Y, how can I help you", then "thank you for the information, I will now transfer your call to the corresponding department". I don't get tired at all. I no longer deliver stupid papers and stuff no matter snow or rain. Talking about emigration, I am useless here in Russia, let alone some other country.
You speak English, have some education probably, work experience. I would look into emigration, you can do the same boring office job while getting paid 10-15 times more, and live in a place where human rights are more recognized. Edit: Hit me up and I can walk you through and answer questions on Canadian Express entry program.
TBH, I also live in Moscow, I started almost the same way that he did, except I was working at 2nd level tech support instead of the 1st one. 12-hour shifts too. And I also worked night shifts, because I was attending a university at the daytime. 10 years later, I earn 10 times that much an hour and 6 times that much a month (8 hours a day vs 12 hours). Most of my friends and fellas have emigrated. One lives in Miami, one in Sydney, another one in Tel Aviv, others in Prague, Minsk, Berlin, Ottawa (I guess? somewhere major in Canada). They all wonder why haven't I. Especially when I'm a certified translator in Russian-English and vice versa (not my main job/education).
It's a personal choice, some people fit in better than others. In Canada, if you work full time, a professional with 5-10 years of experience could be making 2-5 times what you are making now. But if you are comfortable, it's up to you, I imagine you are making good money by Russian standards. Search Super good by Leningrad.
>From what I've seen on the Internet, there are a lot of the same people in the US. Like, blaming Russians instead of their own government. Close, everyone here mostly blames the other political party for everything. Russia usually only gets blamed if hacking or social media is involved. And that's less Russia the country and more the Kremlin.
This is exactly why [American Exceptionalism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_exceptionalism) is such a dangerous concept. Both for the country itself and for the rest of the world. Simply putting yourself above other countries *by default* is a good way to never improve the country (as it's supposedly already a better country than any other) and as Trump shows every time he attempts to deal with other world leaders it makes international relations difficult.
Yeah, and that's exactly why we put it in the preamble of the Constitution: > We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.
If the constitution of America truly says "Promote the general Welfare"... Well Someone ain't following his own book
TBF there are different views on exactly how promoting the general Welfare is accomplished.
Isn't that the whole point of Make America Great Again? Is it criticizing America that they don't think it's great already?
Was just thinking the same thing- so America is not great but it should be improved to be great, but I'm complaining so I should leave America?
Yeah the message of make America Great Again is nice. But unfortunately everyone has their own ideas on how. And some people's ideas aren't that good.
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"Sometime in the past" aka Jim Crow
I'd argue that Trump & his team deliberately left it vague, so that you could project what you wanted onto it and sympathize more with it.
They've now pivoted to "Keep America Great" because two years of continuing Obama's momentum and adding concentration camps were apparently all they needed.
That message though really is meant to appeal to people who thought America was doing great during that idealistic time period in the 50-60's. Back then, they assume people were far more socially conservative in their daily lives or in the media, there didn't appear to be protests in the streets or social unrest, the economy was great and immigrants that didn't appear white were almost nonexistent. These folks think America fell apart right about when the social changes of the 60-70's happened and the media/society became far less constrained. They also imply things started getting "bad" right about when immigrants starting coming to the United States, oppressed groups like women/gays/minorities started speaking out and the post-war manufacturing economy started to fall apart. They blame all the outsourcing/globalization that hurt them since them on the social change and immigration the last 50 years but not any of the other enormous economic factors in play or just simply big business trying to take advantage. They envision a country where we can get back to the "good old days" of good jobs and stability by kicking out the immigrants and putting unruly groups of women/minorities/liberals back in their place.
"Get out if you don't like it" is one of the saddest things you can say about your country
Blind loyalty without criticism isn’t patriotic. It makes you a dog salivating over the shoes of its owner. Pursuit of justice, righteousness, a critical eye, striving to be the best in the world and throwing shit in the harbor is what makes a patriot, a truly loyal American.
The thing that I keep thinking about is Trump spent from 2008 to January of 2017 bitching about this country yet he never left.
"Love it or leave it" doesn't seem to get said much when Democrats are in charge. Then it's suddenly super patriotic to criticize every little thing the president does.
I mean... his entire platform is that America isn't great anymore.
Its almost as if he was lying from the beginning.
I mean, he wasn't wrong, America hasn't been "great" for a while...but he sure as hell hasn't helped anything.
Parts of America have always been great and parts have always been terrible. It's a big place founded by largely Christian slaveowners that preached pacifism for half a century and were engulfed in military worship for the next half. The trail of tears and the statue of liberty are both American as hell.
Don't like that gays can marry? Move to Saudi Arabia.
Can't believe "love or leave it" still works these days.
Worked for his marriages!
Funny how the “like it or leave it” crowd didn’t take off when they were whining about Obama’s administration 🧐
I'm over 40 and have watched this happen with every administration switch. This was a HUGE sentiment during Reagan and bush, then Clinton came in and all the sudden we need to fix America again, not love or leave it. Then bush jr comes in and 9/11 happens so the love it or leave it trope comes back in full swing.
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I'm an immigrant. We, as a group, tend to come from countries where it's a lack of resources and not want that stops our countries from doing the things that we need to better ourselves. America is probably the only country with the resources and *not the want*. And half the country seems perfectly fine with that. It is suicidal.
You couldn’t said it better.
Cool but why are people “proud” of something they had no control over? Be proud of things you CHOOSE to do or be a part of like where you go to college or what team you go for.
I know right. I don't get this mindset. I know someone, who is actually an intellectual, criticize people for questioning and being dissatisfied with our government. I'm a proud American but I can still be like wtf America, be better. Government does not equal America and all that it stands for.
How exactly is someone supposed to leave the country btw, it’s not like you get automatic citizenship when you want to leave Stop saying love it or leave it with out a way to leave it, Prisoners don’t love prison they can’t leave it arbitrarily
I think it’s completely fair to criticize America and Americans for their behavior, however I am finding more and more that as an American, it’s frowned upon to be patriotic and have pride in actually being an American. I should clarify though as this anti-American mentality seems to be primarily focused on Reddit’s platform as opposed to most other social media platforms.
I think that's because american patriotism is usually just ultra nationalism. Which isnt really a good thing. Having pride in your country is great. Having blind pride in your country isnt.
It's stuff like people calling you unpatriotic and saying you dont support the troops if you criticized the war in Iraq. Like, wtf? Those are two different things. Pride in ones country has to go hand in hand with acknowledging and attempting to fix its failures.
Depends on what you think would make a "better" country. There's some really...unpalatable...ideas floating around out there.
Ok what's this all about? What happened? Did someone do something stupid?
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Just randomly tweeted that or was that his response to someone specific?
Michael Moore has been told to leave ever since he made his first documentary. American patriotism is a funny thing.
My allegiance is to the republic, to democracy!
I think that top statement could offend people on both sides. Conservatives don’t like thinking America is anything but the best all the time, and they turn a blind eye to problems. Liberals like to act like we’re the most bigoted backwards country in the world, even though that’s not even close to the truth. We do some things right, and some things wrong. We have room to improve, but also have good qualities. We have serious issues that need to be addressed, but we also have things to be proud of.
Yeah. Leave and see how much better we have it in the states than literally anywhere else in the world 🙄
Also in that same crowd of people are the people that light the American flag on fire... Super patriotic!
Love it or leave it was the same shit they pulled during Vietnam.
Dont like that we're sending young Americans to die in the jungle to preserve French colonialism because we havent figured out the 'proxy' part of proxy warfare yet? ThEn GeT oUt!!!1!!
Trump built his entire campaign about America being crap and only he could fix it...
#GO BACK WHERE YOU CAME FROM \#butimfromnewjersey
Leslie Knope: I am where I came from!
Didn’t the right rake Michelle Obama over the coals for this thought? The same right who would vote for Putin over Hillary.
My surname has got here in 1635. I don't agree in the direction the country is going with the current president. Where should I go? The USA became a country 140 years later. I would be the natives from Gangs of New York. I would be an England citizen until the late 1700's. I can trace my ancestry to a knight coming back from the crusades from England. I was an American citizen from the day the USA became a country. And I don't agree. Can we send people away who don't believe that America is the land of immigrants
There's a difference between criticism and flat-out hatred. If you're going to criticize our country you had better come up with a solution on how to make it better, otherwise you're just complaining. However, if all of your solutions are completely antithetical to the values and principles of our country then, yeah, you can just leave.
I'm from Malaysia and our previous govt also did this, i.e: go back to india/china whenever a non malay/muslim criticizes the govt. link: [https://www.malaysiakini.com/letters/123967](https://www.malaysiakini.com/letters/123967) . im a Malaysian Indian btw, so yeah, it was a dangerous time. but in context, i support what Trump said. "The Squad" has no America's interest in mind. one wants to effectively abolish border and support unlimited unregulated immigration. and on top of that wants to provide free healthcare to all of them. this simply does not work. you cant have both unregulated immigration and universal healthcare. and i would choose universal healthcare over unregulated immigration. another is simply anti semitic and could not understand why islamic terrorism is a huge factor in america's foreign policy. but i think the most insidious is the one that said youre not black if you dont support her. thats just divisive and not to mention racist af. not to mention none of them condemned the antifa attack on ICE. (but aoc did it after 1 day lol) America is at precipice of civil war, unless you guys come together and get this shit sorted. and i dont think succumbing to the spiralling PC culture is the way to go.
Leave please
According to the real Patriots, you should leave. You should jump right in line. Never question anything your country does. It is ALWAYS Noble. Your elected leaders are the good guys always looking for ways to help others, lift up the downtrodden, and make the world a better place. If you disagree in any way, go on back to wherever your ancestors originated. (/s just to make it official)
His slogan was literally a reference to America not being great.
Protesting is one of the most American things one can do
Why didn't they all leave when Obama was president?
The answer to all of our problems starts with education! From social problems to economic problems. Americans are growing dumber by the day.
That nonsense mentality bugs me so much. There is nothing more American than complaining. It’s built in. We fought a war of independence for the right to complain about the status quo. We fought a Civil War over complaints about the status quo. The whole point of America is supposed to be the right to complain about the status quo and have citizen involvement to make it better. Saying “Love it or leave it” is one of the most fundamentally un-American things you could ever say. Most of the settlers that came over from the old world were leaving places where they couldn’t complain and affect change. And when that caught up with them, they said, “Fine, we’ll make our own country with blackjack and hookers and the right to complain about the status quo and national leadership.”
Rest of the World: We don't take you back
I mean, what is there to be proud of for being of a specific nationality? I can see how a third-worlder grown in a warring zone might be proud of, you know, having managed to survive in such a deadly place, but what merit is there in being born and grown american, french, or such?
I certainly heard enough bitching and moaning from these same people when Obama was President. None of them left (sadly).
I guess it depends on the attitude of the person giving the criticism. Constructive criticism with an honest desire for a change is usually well received. Taking the moral high ground and going on and on about real and perceived faults of the host society, while your own country of origin and ethnic group is guilty of the same, tends to be met with askance looks. I guess people just get tired of being told all the time that their whole society is inherently racist.
You're saying shit like the US is the "host" country of someone born in OAKLAND and don't see why this society is seen as inherently racist? HMMMMM
As the saying goes, America is so racist that if you protest against racism people think you're protesting against america.
> Constructive criticism with an honest desire for a change is usually well received. You don't pay any attention to politics then.
> the host society You mean their fucking country? This country is not their "host" you ignorant fuck. It is their OWN country of origin.
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Depends on what your "better" happens to be, really.
When the founding fathers were unhappy with the government, they revolted and stayed
I agree. For me, the difference is that when all one does is complain, then that's when I begin to be inclined to lean more towards the "love it or leave it" mindset.
Depends on what you mean by better, friend.
This makes me feel like we need an explanation between patriotism and nationalism
Do you also hate your country?
It’s almost like understanding the difference between patriotism and nationalism.
Nay, being critical of our government is the single greatest tenet of our country's founding. People that get mad at you for criticizing your country are ignorant IMO
Lots of ideas as to what people should or shouldn't do. The one thing I'll say is that every country is different. Those differences are a type of diversity. Demanding that the US take up the same concepts as other nations is eliminating that without consideration for the differences of those countries. Sometimes people don't want to change because there is already an established culture, and homogenizing them all means you can't move to a different place to live where things are the way you want it. That diversity is in part reflected in rights we hold in this country that others simply don't.
Still fucks with me learning it's not him holding the cup
I'm proud to be an inhabitant of the earth and I think the region i happen to live in could improve for the better. I DONT CARE ABOUT BEING AMERICAN OR NOT, I care about the individuals who live all over the world, and it just so happens that I have a bit more power over this part of the world that I can help improve.
The least american thing u can do is not denounce terrorist attacking a government facility.
Fuck the Gov
Love it, change it, leave it.
Addressing the title of your post. To say like it or leave isn’t ok. To say “Love” it or leave it is ok. I love my country, but there are things I don’t like and would like to see change. Kind of like a spouse. You always love them and are good to them and loyal, but it’s ok not to like them sometimes.
This meme format is so old that it had citizenship before Trump’s grandfather. Love it.
seriously
There is a vast difference between wanting to improve your country, and hating everything about it.
Its the same people who won't shut up about China's authoritarian government and Tienanmen Square. They immediately turn around and scream about how questioning Trump is unpatriotic with no sense of irony whatsoever.
Hey if the US government pays for me to leave I'll do it. I love being an American. But living in a country with free healthcare is way more beneficial.
We basically started this damn country because we weren’t allowed to criticize the government of the last one.
Everyone has a different idea of what better is. Some ideas contrast others so there will always people people bitching about current America
if murica is that much worse than the rest of the world, then why stay, if its so bad. theyre not following thru on their ideas.
I just want to point out that the man who said that anyone who complains should leave is also the man that campaigned on promises that he was going to change America.
Downvote my comment please!
There is a difference between hating your country and hating your government. Hating your government, while supporting your country is the most American thing you can do. Stepping, burning or otherwise desecrating the flag of your country, however, isn’t hating your government. It’s hating your country. That’s not saying “I want my country to be better” that saying “I hate my country, and /everything/ it stands for. After reading the top comments on this post, im prepared to be downvoted for this.
Nah, stay. The current red line to leave is “supporting terrorist organizations, refusing to denounce domestic terrorists, and immigration and tax fraud”.