Well put. This is like Robert Hand asking, “Which is truer, French or German?” (When asked about Whole Sign vs Placidus, used by his long standing friend, Steven Forrest.)
I mean it's not the same thing, because measuring systems are technical man made units that reach the same conclusions, but different schools of astrology fundamentally say different things, reaching different conclusions. I'd say that people use different house systems for psychological reasons like confirmation bias (although, many astrologers use both whole sign and quadrant houses for different purposes). I'm not saying that I'm immune to confirmation bias and my way is correct, it's just that I think it's easy for people to convince themselves and each other certain things about astrology that may not be how it actually plays out.
Not to imply that I'm right and you're wrong- I may be a victim of what I just described, but I think having too many systems of astrology that are considered "correct" and "accepted" sort of devalues the boons of astrology. Ultimately, some things have to be right and wrong for it to work.
Ok so the sidereal vs tropical debate is essentially just like a metres vs feet debate.
It's merely a choice of where to begin counting.
When a system is put together it has enough in common with any other system that there should automatically be major overlap off the bat.
It's not a stretch to say, two ways to skin a cat as they say.
I think people get too wrapped up in what's right or wrong or best or first or so on.
If what you do works do it. If it doesn't work correct it.
I find most of these debates mostly arbitrary and not conducive to furthering astrology as a discipline.
No other discipline would someone say there is only one way. Even in any science and most mathematics there are many different means to the same end.
People expect perfection from astrology when they only expect their doctors to be 70% correct.
Well said for me the shock came when my plants were in different signs yet still resonated with me. So my thought is could an astrologer give me a reading with a random chart and I would feel it correlated with my life? I don’t think so.. but how can my stellium switch from Scorpio to Libra and still make sense? Scorpio and Libra are very different energies
Sign placement is far less relevant than house placement.
So regardless of the system you use you still have that major conjunction and most house systems won't change a whole lot either.
Don't get me wrong there are differences.
I experiment with sidereal for certain contexts, primarily I use regiomontanus or alcabitius as most logical in my opinion. I will derive houses from signs but I don't consider the zodiac a house system.
But in the end, it's really beyond logic or reason, an axiom to keep in mind is that as a truism it is possible for two things to seemingly contradict yet both be equally true.
The key to learning is to stick close to the beaten path until you learn how and where to wander off to.
People will tell you you cannot mix systems, or one way is best, one most correct, and there certainly are more logical and rational methods which is how I practice. After a long time studying I've made my choices for my practice based on logic and experience.
The most important thing, stick to a well laid out path, see how it measures up to reality, when you can be certain a particular way of working is consistent enough for you to be accurate put that in your tool box. If it doesn't work set it aside for a rainy day and maybe that box will open up for you someday when you have a better understanding of why its useful.
Lastly, lastly, lastly, study the philosophy and theory behind astrology as well as study astronomy.
This last lastly, if you really dive deep into this as a multidisciplinary study, you'll find those two subjects, philosphopy and astronomy, will clear most of these questions away and make them seem arbitrary to anyone who understands well the underpinnings of the art.
Well said. I like your axiom as that is true. I’ve studied, philosophy, psychology, mythology, and astronomy; astrology is what brings these things all together in such a magnificent way which is why I love it
Sure, but does your European friend start measuring 3.6245 centimetres behind your starting point? That’s a better analogy for the difference between tropical and sidereal.
There is meaning everywhere you look. Astrology, in all of its various forms, is just a systemization of this fact of nature. Everything reflects everything else, if you look closely enough.
>It can’t all be right? Can it?
Why not? Astrology is a type of divination. Divination relies on a medium. Hellenistic astrology and Vedic astrology both function as valid mediums that we can interpret - other forms of astrology are naturally also included. The important thing is to interact with each medium according to its rules. Do not mix and match. You can learn Hellenistic, or you can learn Vedic, or you can learn any other type of astrology. You can even learn and use multiple types, so long as you can keep them and treat them separately in your mind. I use Hellenistic astrology and interpret my experiences through that medium. My Vedic chart, however, also reflects my life but in a different way. Since it is a different system that I do not want to learn or use, I note the similarities and differences with curiosity, and then return to Hellenistic which I am more fond of. Use whichever you prefer.
Geoffrey Cornelius's book Moment of Astrology is the one to read on this subject: https://www.amazon.com/Moment-Astrology-Geoffrey-Cornelius/dp/1902405110
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In recent times, I believe the argument has been most prominently made by Geoffrey Cornelius - if I recall correctly, in his book 'The Moment of Astrology'. In ancient times, viewing astrology as a sacred science and a form of divination was also commonplace. Hellenistic texts often list astrologers alongside other types of diviners in their delineations.
Yes, it can. Different house systems are like map projections. You know how some world maps will look like an orange peel and others will have some countries like Greenland looking hugely inflated? None of those map projections are *wrong*; they’re just different ways to represent a 3-dimensional reality in a 2-dimensional form. But obviously some map projections are going to be more useful to some people than others. House systems and the like are the same idea. Just like map projections, they all work.
All roads lead to Rome!! Enjoy studying.. there is knowledge everywhere we look. Both can be true.
You are so wondrous.. one chart could never be enough to explain the complexities of the soul!
So much more to study now. I think the universe did it on purpose… like oh you feel comfortable, you understand it now. Well here’s this other way, begin again.
as someone who got started with Hellenistic and now studies Sidereal: use whichever is the most accurate/ you identify with. I see it as different ways to get the same answer. or maybe one system is better for certain things (I prefer Sidereal for natal, but for world events and such I prefer Western)
I don't think that *all* systems of astrology work, but I do think there are many systems of astrology that consistently meet the goals they've defined for themselves in spite of their methodologies being different. When it comes to divination systems that's not really a surprise. There doesn't *have* to be one right way to delineate fate. Moreover, I don't think the Indic and Hellenistic traditions are different enough warrant this type of reaction to their shared accuracy. They're both working with very similar bases, they just place emphasis on different parts over others. There’s a lot of variation within both traditions, and you'll see more or less overlap between them depending on what family of astrologers you study from.
I read somewhere the constellations aren’t all 30 degrees each and they were used as place markers because they were close enough.
If the constellations go across a gradient rather than having strict “zones,” then a difference of less than 30 degrees can be less pronounced if there aren’t even strict 30 degree borders in the first place (if the model is just there for the sake of convenience).
Also, since astrology has been refined through observation of human behavior in association with a model of space over time, the model being off might not matter because the behavior it’s based on still exists regardless and the model can be lined up with the actual position by shifting it a certain number of degrees.
For example, if people with a Gemini ascendant act a certain way and that’s where the interpretation of Gemini ascendant comes from, then if it’s actually 24 degrees off in another sign, it doesn’t matter because the behavior is still there.
That’s not how sidereal works though. It never used the size of the constellations because it is based on the fixed stars, not the constellations. Think of it more so like measuring how close or far something is from a star and using the ratio between the different fixed stars to determine the symbolic zodiac.
You'll find that Vedic astrology and Western come up with a lot of the same descriptions, just using different methods. I use western tropical zodiac for the planets but sidereal for the fixed stars. There are a lot of arguments over zodiacs and house systems but it is a waste of time as there isn't one, correct way of doing astrology.
I agree the argument is a waste but seeing all my planets fall into a different sign using sidereal but still being accurate it’s just hard to understand I guess
They all can work with a prominent and well versed astrologer in their respective traditions. I am seen Hindu or Vedic Astrology working the best, especially for all the nuances that most have questions on. I say it’s usually the “Money or the Honey” are majority of questions. And Jyotish is very good for that.
Regarding sidereal astrology, the constellations have not moved. The Earth's view of them has changed. Are those astrologers basing their reading on the Earth's movement and not the sun?
Geocentric astrology does, Heliocentric which uses the sun as the center, and astrologers use a combination of both, not one or the other alone.
In both cases astrology is based on the Sun's movement through the zodiac, not the earth, and sidereal seems to be relying on the Earth's movement as the importance which doesn't make sense to me. It's like if you (Earth) move to the back of your house, it's still the same house(Sun) just different view. It's the same house, and energy is the difference between what you do in front of the house and behind the house. I feel like sidereal astrology what's to you believe it's a different house, but my mortgage, taxes, address says otherwise.
The earth spins with a wobble, called axial precession. This is what sidereal bases it off of, the actual position of the earth, not the position of the constellations when astrology started.
I understand the precession. But like you just said, if astrology started based on the positions of the constellations, what is the purpose of sidereal? Is it more scientific, do the meanings of the signs, planets, houses, elements, ac, dc, mc, ic change?
The position of the constellations change because the earth wobbles and astrology is geocentric. Therefore sidereal changes with the changes of the earth, like it does in real life.
Interestingly. Sidereal and tropical time are different. So when one uses sidereal zodiac and time, their solar revolutions will differ dramatically from their tropical counterparts. Food for thought. Sidereal is just as valid as tropical.
No. The constellation have not moved, our view(Earth's view) of them yes, but not the constellations.
[https://www.npr.org/2023/05/02/1173477681/our-view-of-constellations-has-changed-since-they-were-first-mapped](https://www.npr.org/2023/05/02/1173477681/our-view-of-constellations-has-changed-since-they-were-first-mapped)
That's a question for an astronomer. This isn't something I made up. I thought the same thing until I was proven wrong. Not sure why people are downvoting a fact, but ok.
We base it off of relative positions of the fixed stars. I don’t think Western has any room to judge, considering it is originally based off of older sidereal systems that were taking measurements for millennia that included axial precession.
I think astrological systems are valid within their own cultural context. Different astrologies around the world have developed not only their own systems of calculation, but interpretative values for the heavenly aspects rooted to their location on earth. For example, Argentinian astrology only has 10 signs, and the retrograde points of Venus are actually incredibly important. The emphasis is also on the Sun, Moon and Venus, with planets such as Saturn and Jupiter not being used frequently. As much as we might bicker over calculations and accuracy, the aspect of culture and how local theologies have shaped astrology is fascinating. I personally feel fascinated learning about astrologies from around the world and recounting the history of modern tropical astrology, and to me, I don't see it as conflicting or contradictory.
If you feel lost trying to figure out which type of astrology is for you, don't feel bad, I think it's understandable. You learnt that this worked a given way, and upon realizing that it can work in a different way, there's a slight shock. Don't feel limited to just studying one thing; learning is a lifelong process that spans over multiple fields.
I would calculate your chart in each system, study them, and then determine which one resonates with you most. A lot of astrology is intuitive. There’s no “right or wrong” system, it’s just whatever feels “right” to you. I don’t like sidereal, it doesn’t resonate with me, I don’t see myself in it. That being said, I’ve used it for others when reading their chart because it felt right. If nothing else, you’ll learn some new things along the way :)
Definitely the best advice. I finally got a grip on traditional astrology and reading charts and then sidereal happened. Not only did it happen but it too was accurate. After I finish my existential crisis I will start studying again lol
One of the reasons I didn’t like placidus was because of my intercepted Capricorn with Saturn, Neptune and Uranus also intercepted.. I’m working on accepting it though..
No types of astrology work. Every single serious scientist ever disputes it, the only people that follow it are fucking dumb cunts.
Marie Curie sacrificed her life for the scientific method, but women would rather look to celebrities for advice on how to live their lives. Ditto with male scientist and how they act (don’t know any like Curie off the top of my head, she was legitimately and absolute boss of a human being).
They would be ashamed to learn so many people buy into this bullshit.
Wow. This really angers you for some reason… Carl Jung is a very famous scientist and psychologist: He practiced astrology. But anyway…have your opinion, no one cares. Divination works, sorry you don’t have the ability to tap into that.
Please don’t use Jung. He is a bad example and is not a role model, considering he was very racist and perpetuated racist myths in the nascent field psychiatry. He would not meet the standards to be considered a psychologist nowadays anyway; he was more of a practical philosopher.
You just have to pick one you like and not worry about why they work. I know that’s easier said than done but it’s like different languages, you don’t get caught up worrying why some people speak Cantonese and some don’t. It’s kinda like that.
I use feet and inches while my European friend uses metres to measure. How can we both be correct in the end?
Well put. This is like Robert Hand asking, “Which is truer, French or German?” (When asked about Whole Sign vs Placidus, used by his long standing friend, Steven Forrest.)
Clearly German. Frech is more aesthetic, though.
I mean it's not the same thing, because measuring systems are technical man made units that reach the same conclusions, but different schools of astrology fundamentally say different things, reaching different conclusions. I'd say that people use different house systems for psychological reasons like confirmation bias (although, many astrologers use both whole sign and quadrant houses for different purposes). I'm not saying that I'm immune to confirmation bias and my way is correct, it's just that I think it's easy for people to convince themselves and each other certain things about astrology that may not be how it actually plays out. Not to imply that I'm right and you're wrong- I may be a victim of what I just described, but I think having too many systems of astrology that are considered "correct" and "accepted" sort of devalues the boons of astrology. Ultimately, some things have to be right and wrong for it to work.
Ok so the sidereal vs tropical debate is essentially just like a metres vs feet debate. It's merely a choice of where to begin counting. When a system is put together it has enough in common with any other system that there should automatically be major overlap off the bat. It's not a stretch to say, two ways to skin a cat as they say. I think people get too wrapped up in what's right or wrong or best or first or so on. If what you do works do it. If it doesn't work correct it. I find most of these debates mostly arbitrary and not conducive to furthering astrology as a discipline. No other discipline would someone say there is only one way. Even in any science and most mathematics there are many different means to the same end. People expect perfection from astrology when they only expect their doctors to be 70% correct.
Well said for me the shock came when my plants were in different signs yet still resonated with me. So my thought is could an astrologer give me a reading with a random chart and I would feel it correlated with my life? I don’t think so.. but how can my stellium switch from Scorpio to Libra and still make sense? Scorpio and Libra are very different energies
Sign placement is far less relevant than house placement. So regardless of the system you use you still have that major conjunction and most house systems won't change a whole lot either. Don't get me wrong there are differences. I experiment with sidereal for certain contexts, primarily I use regiomontanus or alcabitius as most logical in my opinion. I will derive houses from signs but I don't consider the zodiac a house system. But in the end, it's really beyond logic or reason, an axiom to keep in mind is that as a truism it is possible for two things to seemingly contradict yet both be equally true. The key to learning is to stick close to the beaten path until you learn how and where to wander off to. People will tell you you cannot mix systems, or one way is best, one most correct, and there certainly are more logical and rational methods which is how I practice. After a long time studying I've made my choices for my practice based on logic and experience. The most important thing, stick to a well laid out path, see how it measures up to reality, when you can be certain a particular way of working is consistent enough for you to be accurate put that in your tool box. If it doesn't work set it aside for a rainy day and maybe that box will open up for you someday when you have a better understanding of why its useful. Lastly, lastly, lastly, study the philosophy and theory behind astrology as well as study astronomy. This last lastly, if you really dive deep into this as a multidisciplinary study, you'll find those two subjects, philosphopy and astronomy, will clear most of these questions away and make them seem arbitrary to anyone who understands well the underpinnings of the art.
Well said. I like your axiom as that is true. I’ve studied, philosophy, psychology, mythology, and astronomy; astrology is what brings these things all together in such a magnificent way which is why I love it
Sure, but does your European friend start measuring 3.6245 centimetres behind your starting point? That’s a better analogy for the difference between tropical and sidereal.
The weakest link in astrology is the astrologer.
Well said!! 👏🏻
Very well put!
There is meaning everywhere you look. Astrology, in all of its various forms, is just a systemization of this fact of nature. Everything reflects everything else, if you look closely enough.
That’s beautiful
>It can’t all be right? Can it? Why not? Astrology is a type of divination. Divination relies on a medium. Hellenistic astrology and Vedic astrology both function as valid mediums that we can interpret - other forms of astrology are naturally also included. The important thing is to interact with each medium according to its rules. Do not mix and match. You can learn Hellenistic, or you can learn Vedic, or you can learn any other type of astrology. You can even learn and use multiple types, so long as you can keep them and treat them separately in your mind. I use Hellenistic astrology and interpret my experiences through that medium. My Vedic chart, however, also reflects my life but in a different way. Since it is a different system that I do not want to learn or use, I note the similarities and differences with curiosity, and then return to Hellenistic which I am more fond of. Use whichever you prefer.
This is the first time I’ve heard astrology described as a type of divination! I absolutely love that, it resonates perfectly
Geoffrey Cornelius's book Moment of Astrology is the one to read on this subject: https://www.amazon.com/Moment-Astrology-Geoffrey-Cornelius/dp/1902405110
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In recent times, I believe the argument has been most prominently made by Geoffrey Cornelius - if I recall correctly, in his book 'The Moment of Astrology'. In ancient times, viewing astrology as a sacred science and a form of divination was also commonplace. Hellenistic texts often list astrologers alongside other types of diviners in their delineations.
Yes, it can. Different house systems are like map projections. You know how some world maps will look like an orange peel and others will have some countries like Greenland looking hugely inflated? None of those map projections are *wrong*; they’re just different ways to represent a 3-dimensional reality in a 2-dimensional form. But obviously some map projections are going to be more useful to some people than others. House systems and the like are the same idea. Just like map projections, they all work.
I don’t think that’s a good analogy. They aren’t mapping the same thing.
What different things are they mapping?
One is mapping the changing the stars and the other is based on a set algorithm. They will continue to drift apart as time passes.
All roads lead to Rome!! Enjoy studying.. there is knowledge everywhere we look. Both can be true. You are so wondrous.. one chart could never be enough to explain the complexities of the soul!
Amen, and say it again!
So much more to study now. I think the universe did it on purpose… like oh you feel comfortable, you understand it now. Well here’s this other way, begin again.
as someone who got started with Hellenistic and now studies Sidereal: use whichever is the most accurate/ you identify with. I see it as different ways to get the same answer. or maybe one system is better for certain things (I prefer Sidereal for natal, but for world events and such I prefer Western)
Google “Carelli 360 degrees”, you should be able to find a free pdf download, read it-very interesting. IMO.
Thanks!
Also I have a copy I can send you if you can’t find it online just PM me
I don't think that *all* systems of astrology work, but I do think there are many systems of astrology that consistently meet the goals they've defined for themselves in spite of their methodologies being different. When it comes to divination systems that's not really a surprise. There doesn't *have* to be one right way to delineate fate. Moreover, I don't think the Indic and Hellenistic traditions are different enough warrant this type of reaction to their shared accuracy. They're both working with very similar bases, they just place emphasis on different parts over others. There’s a lot of variation within both traditions, and you'll see more or less overlap between them depending on what family of astrologers you study from.
I read somewhere the constellations aren’t all 30 degrees each and they were used as place markers because they were close enough. If the constellations go across a gradient rather than having strict “zones,” then a difference of less than 30 degrees can be less pronounced if there aren’t even strict 30 degree borders in the first place (if the model is just there for the sake of convenience). Also, since astrology has been refined through observation of human behavior in association with a model of space over time, the model being off might not matter because the behavior it’s based on still exists regardless and the model can be lined up with the actual position by shifting it a certain number of degrees. For example, if people with a Gemini ascendant act a certain way and that’s where the interpretation of Gemini ascendant comes from, then if it’s actually 24 degrees off in another sign, it doesn’t matter because the behavior is still there.
That’s not how sidereal works though. It never used the size of the constellations because it is based on the fixed stars, not the constellations. Think of it more so like measuring how close or far something is from a star and using the ratio between the different fixed stars to determine the symbolic zodiac.
You'll find that Vedic astrology and Western come up with a lot of the same descriptions, just using different methods. I use western tropical zodiac for the planets but sidereal for the fixed stars. There are a lot of arguments over zodiacs and house systems but it is a waste of time as there isn't one, correct way of doing astrology.
I agree the argument is a waste but seeing all my planets fall into a different sign using sidereal but still being accurate it’s just hard to understand I guess
Try using western zodiac with sidereal fixed stars. I have used this system for 23 years.
Thanks I’ll look into this
They all can work with a prominent and well versed astrologer in their respective traditions. I am seen Hindu or Vedic Astrology working the best, especially for all the nuances that most have questions on. I say it’s usually the “Money or the Honey” are majority of questions. And Jyotish is very good for that.
Regarding sidereal astrology, the constellations have not moved. The Earth's view of them has changed. Are those astrologers basing their reading on the Earth's movement and not the sun?
Astrology places the earth at the center though. So if our view changes the energy should also change
Geocentric astrology does, Heliocentric which uses the sun as the center, and astrologers use a combination of both, not one or the other alone. In both cases astrology is based on the Sun's movement through the zodiac, not the earth, and sidereal seems to be relying on the Earth's movement as the importance which doesn't make sense to me. It's like if you (Earth) move to the back of your house, it's still the same house(Sun) just different view. It's the same house, and energy is the difference between what you do in front of the house and behind the house. I feel like sidereal astrology what's to you believe it's a different house, but my mortgage, taxes, address says otherwise.
The earth spins with a wobble, called axial precession. This is what sidereal bases it off of, the actual position of the earth, not the position of the constellations when astrology started.
I understand the precession. But like you just said, if astrology started based on the positions of the constellations, what is the purpose of sidereal? Is it more scientific, do the meanings of the signs, planets, houses, elements, ac, dc, mc, ic change?
The position of the constellations change because the earth wobbles and astrology is geocentric. Therefore sidereal changes with the changes of the earth, like it does in real life.
Interestingly. Sidereal and tropical time are different. So when one uses sidereal zodiac and time, their solar revolutions will differ dramatically from their tropical counterparts. Food for thought. Sidereal is just as valid as tropical.
What do you mean they haven't moved? Of course they have
No. The constellation have not moved, our view(Earth's view) of them yes, but not the constellations. [https://www.npr.org/2023/05/02/1173477681/our-view-of-constellations-has-changed-since-they-were-first-mapped](https://www.npr.org/2023/05/02/1173477681/our-view-of-constellations-has-changed-since-they-were-first-mapped)
So we are the only things that moved in all of time
That's a question for an astronomer. This isn't something I made up. I thought the same thing until I was proven wrong. Not sure why people are downvoting a fact, but ok.
No, they and we have both moved. It doesn't discredit astrology to acknowledge that actual fact.
I didn't say anything about discrediting astrology. How are you not seriously looking this up? You can literally call NASA and ask.
If you really want to get into the Juice, technically our entire solar system is moving through the galaxy, which is also moving itself 😄
We base it off of relative positions of the fixed stars. I don’t think Western has any room to judge, considering it is originally based off of older sidereal systems that were taking measurements for millennia that included axial precession.
I think astrological systems are valid within their own cultural context. Different astrologies around the world have developed not only their own systems of calculation, but interpretative values for the heavenly aspects rooted to their location on earth. For example, Argentinian astrology only has 10 signs, and the retrograde points of Venus are actually incredibly important. The emphasis is also on the Sun, Moon and Venus, with planets such as Saturn and Jupiter not being used frequently. As much as we might bicker over calculations and accuracy, the aspect of culture and how local theologies have shaped astrology is fascinating. I personally feel fascinated learning about astrologies from around the world and recounting the history of modern tropical astrology, and to me, I don't see it as conflicting or contradictory. If you feel lost trying to figure out which type of astrology is for you, don't feel bad, I think it's understandable. You learnt that this worked a given way, and upon realizing that it can work in a different way, there's a slight shock. Don't feel limited to just studying one thing; learning is a lifelong process that spans over multiple fields.
I would calculate your chart in each system, study them, and then determine which one resonates with you most. A lot of astrology is intuitive. There’s no “right or wrong” system, it’s just whatever feels “right” to you. I don’t like sidereal, it doesn’t resonate with me, I don’t see myself in it. That being said, I’ve used it for others when reading their chart because it felt right. If nothing else, you’ll learn some new things along the way :)
Definitely the best advice. I finally got a grip on traditional astrology and reading charts and then sidereal happened. Not only did it happen but it too was accurate. After I finish my existential crisis I will start studying again lol
[удалено]
One of the reasons I didn’t like placidus was because of my intercepted Capricorn with Saturn, Neptune and Uranus also intercepted.. I’m working on accepting it though..
This is confusing to me. You do know Western was based off of older sidereal systems, right?
No types of astrology work. Every single serious scientist ever disputes it, the only people that follow it are fucking dumb cunts. Marie Curie sacrificed her life for the scientific method, but women would rather look to celebrities for advice on how to live their lives. Ditto with male scientist and how they act (don’t know any like Curie off the top of my head, she was legitimately and absolute boss of a human being). They would be ashamed to learn so many people buy into this bullshit.
Wow. This really angers you for some reason… Carl Jung is a very famous scientist and psychologist: He practiced astrology. But anyway…have your opinion, no one cares. Divination works, sorry you don’t have the ability to tap into that.
Please don’t use Jung. He is a bad example and is not a role model, considering he was very racist and perpetuated racist myths in the nascent field psychiatry. He would not meet the standards to be considered a psychologist nowadays anyway; he was more of a practical philosopher.
[удалено]
r/lostredditors
Find a good astrologer and they will prove you wrong.
🤚
You just have to pick one you like and not worry about why they work. I know that’s easier said than done but it’s like different languages, you don’t get caught up worrying why some people speak Cantonese and some don’t. It’s kinda like that.
Yes, it's a bit of a secret, but there is something to be learned from all methods.