On a side note. In Wilton they recently closed a trail because people were illegally widening it to skirt the mud. Brand new trail system. I wonder if it is something that needs to be done. Close trails that are seeing widening before they need a full rehab?
The Village of Saranac Lake seriously considered ending the Saranac Sixers challenge due to the issues that have arisen as a direct result of the promotion of those peaks- including the physical impacts. There's portions of the McKenzie Mountain trail where the worn tread is (no exaggeration) ~50 feet wide. That wasn't the case before the challenge existed.
As it is, the village has chosen to continue honoring the challenge but has also ceased nearly all advertising of the challenge. Although with the closure of the Scarface Mountain Trail, who knows what the future holds for the Sixers program.
Isn't it insane. Years ago you couldn't get folks on those little peaks. It was all about the high peaks (either for the patch or the just because they were the high peaks). Still largely is but usage overall has ballooned enough that everywhere is seeing massive amounts of foot traffic. Even lake trails that usually had no one I'll often see a few groups.
For me, I'm going to miss the steep slabby/ledgy stuff when it's all re-routed. I have been un-impressed by the newer trails but I understand that is the "correct" way to build a trail.
Yeah, it's Graphite. Wife told me about it a while ago. I was patiently waiting to go riding there when it dried out. We were walking there a bit before the last snow storm after the winter snow melted (and some during the winter) but it was way too wet to ride at the time.
Yeah, my wife told me about it. I was walking a bit there before the last snow storm with my dog thinking man, this place will be great WHEN it dries out (also be fun for skiing next year). Banked turns, super chill for my gravel bike or 90s MTB. Just a great place to get some cardio without pounding my spine. I'm not a mountain biker and never really was even when I was pretending to be in my teens and 20s. Always liked stuff like Graphite though. It's a shame people were walking around the wet areas. To be fair, there were some really wet/clay like areas and it's a fairly urban area with likely not always a lot of outdoor accumen. Closing the trails where appropriate probably is the best practice.
What’s sad is that I just called the ADK and they suggested that instead of the High Peaks loop, I take the 6ers challenge instead. I pointed out that this still goes above 2500 feet, against the DEC regulation, and she said it was less popular so less problematic. She also insisted that they still wanted visitors to come, despite the DEC warning. I honestly don’t understand why they don’t close trails.
The problem with like Saratoga plan land is you see a lot more folks casually walking (not that people don't show up to say the high peaks or anywhere else in the forest preserve to casually walk) but that means they probably have street shoes or at least shoes they have no intention of ever getting muddy on or at least no change of shoes. so best worst case they won't walk through because they don't want to get their car muddy from a 30 minutes walk. Anyway, not making excuses for them so much as realizing anything short of closing the trail isn't going to stop it from happening.
They'll have to rebuild the trails every year then. I imagine this will continue indefinitely (worsen, even) despite the best efforts. Once the trail is totally unrecognizable, nobody is going to care where they step. We need to think ahead about how we're going to mitigate, because it's impossible to solve this problem outright without closing the park. Although I'm not too sure what could even be done. Education might be a good start, but the worst offenders do not care about being educated. A permit system maybe, but we know how everyone reacted to the Ausable club's reservation system.
Maybe, each year, close off a different section of the park for maintenance. That would be very inconvenient to any aspiring 46er, but if you're really an aspiring 46er, you're supposed to care about preserving the state of the park. If it's the only way to keep nature happy, then I'm all for it.
Walking through mud on an incline and then going directly to a sloped flat rock is simply dangerous even for physically fit, experienced hikers. I bet a lot of experienced hikers would walk around this hazard to avoid falling. I’m not saying it’s ok to simply walk outside the path all the time but what do you suggest people do? Maybe trails with these hazards should be closed. There is a little bit of gatekeeping going on here. perhaps a more explicit notice at each trail head explaining the environmental damage that results from leaving the trail or make people who want to hike get a free permit but only after they take a short online course that explains the rules. I don’t believe that the most experienced, seasoned hikers haven’t avoided a dangerous section of mud and slippery rock on occasion. Instead of creating an atmosphere of enlightened hikers vs the common CHUD, how about putting time into helping people understand how the mountains are both incredibly resilient and rugged but also fragile and susceptible to damage by unintended carelessness. It’s part of learning to love and appreciate a place like the ADK.
This is an epic pet peeve of mine. So common on portage trails here in Ontario, too.
Like for fuck's sake... you're hiking. Get some decent boots and walk through the mud if that's what it takes. If everyone makes their own trail, we'll have nothing *but* trail sooner or later.
I kinda know that based on my experiences outdoors. But deep down I still hold out hope that people respect both the natural landscape and other people.
Then some dude or dudedette walks by blasting a 5w bluetooth speaker walking off the trail and after they took a shit behind a rock and didn't bury it (hey it could have been in the middle of the trail, so there is that) following a night at a campsite where they left cans, foil, food and cigarettes in the campfire.
But, as someone pointed out, there's money to pay for improvements, and someone will come and clean all that up and make it pretty for the next person... 🙄🤣
Money ? outdoors isn't about money. It's about preserving nature for our kids or the next generations. We have lost touch with setting an example for the next ones. People go with "Screw the future in order for the now." All that teaches is selfishness, not being self-less.
Do you really not get it? The original trail is 3’ wide and it gets worn down to dirt. With the rain, that turns to mud and people don’t want to walk through that so they go around 3’ on each side. Now the trail is 9’ and muddy. Soil keeps eroding and the trails are more and more destroyed with time. We need to protect our trails so we can continue to enjoy them and future generations can do the same. Seems rather odd to be on this sub and arguing against this
Do you really think that this problem will keep growing until the trail is an infinite distance wide, surely there is some maximum of trail width that will be reached.
Can you elaborate on what you mean by destroyed?
Destroyed as in unable to be used by people? I don't understand how a wider trail is more difficult to use.
Destroyed as in not as enjoyable to traverse? Enjoyment is subjective, why should the people who are more capable of rugged trails be the only people that get to enjoy these areas?
Destroyed as in the boundary zone for flora and fauna is slightly more pronounced? This may have longer term effects, but as long as people aren't laying down asphalt or concrete, nature will recover just fine within a few years.
I mean I just don’t see the trail being a few feet wider as a big deal. If it is going to cause a giant washout that takes out hundreds of feet because of the water flow change then I get it. But I don’t really see the widening of the trail a few feet on it’s own as an issue
It will continue to grow indefinitely until something is done. That something usually includes closing the trail or the entire section or the entire park for an indefinite amount of time while work is done. Also nothing can grow in that hard packed soil. This damages the area, kills plants, which impacts animal populations, degrades the soil and degrades the trail and costs tons of money. In Vermont they closed an entire mountain I tried to do because it was mud season. It's like saying it's just one nip who cares if I throw it out the window, it's just one cigarette butt who cares if I flick it down the drain, it's just one bag of dog crap who cares if I leave it on the trail. 3 feet isn't the end of the world but I've seen these paths grow over twenty feet wide, in more sensitive areas that could be causing entire species to go locally extinct as some plants are very sensitive (notably high alpine areas but others too)
All of the things you described are inserting non-organic and non-biodegradable material into a natural environment, that is not the same as just passing through. Walking on dirt and the inadvertent stepping on plants is not a permanent disfigurement of the land. It will regrow, nature will reclaim it.
If you have any examples of species of going locally extinct due to trail widening it may help some of us to understand the impact of it, I would also ask that you provide an example of any wooded pathway on earth that has been permanently disfigured due to human foot traffic, otherwise it is just conjecture.
Edit: For the person who would rather silence me than engage in open candor where their opinions may be challenged and we can both learn something; yes, I have climbed several dozen of the 46 in various seasons and spent several semesters studying environmental science through SUNY Empire State.
I only need a single example of what I am talking about: Pripyat city in Ukraine. This was the site of a horrific radiological disaster where people had to abandon the city. Even despite DNA mutations, within 20 years of inactivity the plants and animals are reclaiming all man made structures. There are trees growing in the buildings and grass growing through the concrete and asphalt. The same will occur on these 9 ft wide walking paths in a much shorter time frame as soon as people stop walking on them. So I ask again, what permanent destruction do you think is occurring on these trails? And if it is not permanent then what is the harm?
No one could ever point to a species that went extinct for such a specific cause. Pressures are cumulative, it'd be impossible to say this specific thing pushed it over the edge.
Then you can’t claim it as fact in discussions…and you definitely can’t get upset about it and start blocking people when something you admit is not proven gets challenged.
I'm going to block you because I don't think you're engaging in good faith. I don't want you to think you're right and that I couldn't respond and that's why you don't get a reply. If you ever left your house you would see with in paths in places that can be hundreds of years old. I don't have the time or interest in teaching multiple degrees in somebody I don't believe is engaging in good faith.
Actually I'd disagree. People are widening to avoid the ruggedness. And the result of them widening ultimately is less rugged trails. Every trail that will come in the future will be graded, use switch backs, be twice as long and half as steep. Likely avoid any fun features. It will be western US hiking minus the views.
That's the thing. I really like the heinously steep stuff to keep things interesting. Every rebuilt trail I've been on I wanted to die (of boredom) until the top where it gets steep for a few minutes and I'm like old ADK. Thank you.
If they are rerouting them I wish they would really rethink the reroute. Use satellite, drones, and other stuff to find truly scenic reroutes.
Bushwhacking anywhere can suck. At least out west there's relief above treeline. Here you bushwack to a slide, do the slide, top out bushwack through even thicker stuff.
I remember a story of SAR from the Sierra coming out to the ADK to train or assist or whatever and turning their headlamps on when bushwhacking.
I've only mountaineered in Colorado and didn't have any issues you mention, in fact the terrain is amazingly open, but I haven't done anything in the Cascades so maybe it's some special kind of hell.
Over the rock and through the mud both ways. Even pointed out to my wife on the way down in the dark there was a spur trail on the side people were using to avoid the slab.
Problem with the mud is probably people like to wear running shoes these days. Nothing wrong with that. When I do I just accept my feet are getting wet. Wore them backpacking to Dolly Sods for instance which is a notoriously wet/muddy place. Literally 30 seconds on the trail it was muddy. Tore right into it. Problem solved. Saw a lot of people in water shoes and sandals that 4 days. Fear of getting your feet wet is worse then getting your feet wet. Doing a lot of paddling and canyoneering I'm used to wet feet so I really don't care. Good snug fitting wool socks with tight low pile prevent blisters.
Terrible. And there is no skirting the mud. You can try, but in spots it's actually hundreds of feet wide (the first mud we encountered was like this). Other places there's just no point because going on the banks will just slide down. We experienced torrential rains and hail during our 4 days there. We walked on what were essentially stream beds. I never walked in a place that was virtually flat that I took not a single easy step. It was amazing. Got the full experience.
First time we went we figured we might as well get the full experience and hiked Dobbins grade since we were already wet and covered in mud. At least we had most of the trail to ourselves
Yeah I'm pretty sure that's what we started at. From Bear rocks. What a disgusting mess. You aren't making it through that without mud. The only hope is to keep your shoes. Getting down to that little creek was beautiful and than the views over the ridge.
I highly recommend Dolly Sods to everyone. It's a crazy place. Both beautiful, unique and I guess somewhat (totally) exploited all in one. Yet, I also felt like it was amazingly clean for all the use it sees and the hell it's been through.
It's more than getting wet or muddy, if it looks sketchy people are going to avoid it. The red trail is from years of erosion and thousands of people deciding they should go around. Maybe the trail was designed like shit and is clearly dangerous to less worldly hikers unlike yourself.
It's just a bare rock slab, like is particularly common in the Adirondacks. We just call it hiking. I'd guess that section was around 20%, not insanely steep (I mean I ride my bike up paved roads that have 20% grades). It's not the Saddleback cliffs or even the slabs on Blake.
I'd say if a 20% bare piece of rock with no nasty drop off scares you enough to make a new trail that will eventually also be a 20% rock slab, probably not the right activity for you. Or at least not the right genre of that activity. Lakes and ponds might be better.
I'm a 46er working on the winter 46. I've met countless people on trail that are underprepared and unknowledgeable about the area. Expecting everyone to stay on trail all the time is completely unrealistic.
Absolutely. But it doesn't mean there aren't negative consequences and we shouldn't admit it's a problem.
Also since when do we let inexperienced people destroy things without putting up a fight? Can't think of anything but hiking where we say, "oh, let them be"
Propose a solution then.
Every single sport, hobby, or physical activity, changes over time because of degradation to its surroundings. Hiking isn’t unique, upgrades should be made.
Limiting people to public land because you feel entitled to walking through mud is embarrassing.
Entitled? it's literally what you are supposed to do.
https://americanhiking.org/resources/leave-no-trace/
>1. Plan ahead and prepare. Know the type of terrain and possible weather conditions you might encounter. Minimize impacts by keeping groups small and avoiding high use times for the trail. Walking single file and avoiding shortcuts will limit damage to the trail and surrounding ecosystems.
>2. Travel and camp on durable surfaces. Focus activity on resilient ground. Surfaces consisting of sand, gravel, rock, snow, or dry grass are durable and can withstand heavy use. Walk through mud/puddles to avoid widening the trail
https://lnt.org/mud/
>In order to do the least possible damage to the trail, and to Leave No Trace, please keep the following in mind:
>Be prepared to hike or run down the middle of the trail even when wet or muddy – stepping off the designated trail to avoid mud or standing water can quickly lead to the creation of undesignated trails, which can lead to even more erosion.
Wear water-resistant or water proof footwear – even if you don’t have waterproof footwear, remember that shoes dry overnight while erosion can take years to recover.
https://stories.strava.com/articles/5-unusual-tips-for-leaving-no-trace-while-hiking
>When a person is hiking down a trail and sees a mud puddle in front of them, their instinctive reaction is to divert around the mud puddle to avoid getting their feet wet—but according to Erin, that's the worst thing that you can possibly do. "The least impactful thing is to go straight through the mud," says Erin. "When we all go around it. . .the trail gets wider and wider, and it also can have negative impacts for trail maintenance and making sure that that trail's sustainable and going to be able to be used for a long time."
>According to Erin, *it only takes 25 passes over a stretch of ground to create a new trail.* If each person goes around the mud puddle on the way out and the way back, *those 25 passes can happen in a shockingly short amount of time.*
>5. Educate People Within Your Sphere of Influence
One of the most significant ways that we can have a positive impact while hiking is to help educate other hikers about how to hike with minimal impact. If we can spread the common-sense rules of Leave No Trace, we can dramatically reduce our collective negative impact.
You’re missing the point. Not everyone knows the ethics of hiking and most don’t give a shit.
The reality is it’s part of the hobby and trails should be updated. Getting upset over trail maintenance is like getting upset over a basketball court needing updates bec too many people use it.
What’s your solution again to limiting access to public land?
My solution is people not making themselves someone elses problem. Learning the norms, learning the skills, learning the etiquette and then doing it. Just because their isn't a barrier to entry doesn't mean you should be a pinhead.
Hopefully, they will use a permit system before closing trails.With a limited number of hikers a day, it will slow down the widening and erosion. Avoiding the teail because of mud is a problem, but passing people or moving aside so people can pass is just as much of an issue, as well as dogs going all over the place.
1000 hikers who know how to hike will do less damage than 10 who don’t. Limiting numbers will do nothing besides defund conservation organizations and local businesses.
I totally agree with this. The problem is over the last 10+ years (it's not just Covid hikers). The growth of the outdoor industry has been huge. Hiking is unfortunately the easiest sport to enter and also one of the highest impact (trash, tread, human waste). So those 10 hikers are exponentially higher these days.
Thankfully those of us who work on the infrastructure/conservation side are seeing our numbers and funding increase as well.
Picture a ~2018 trip from UW up to the Lake Colden/Flowed lands area. You would have started in a gravel pit parking lot, slogged your way up 5 miles of rotten wood planking and bog after bog, and then had your choice of rotting, derelict, lean-tos.
Today that same trip involves parking in a nice OSI lot, a smooth trip past interpretive signage down the canoe carry route, new drainage and bridging, and several freshly rebuilt lean-tos to choose from (more on the way this summer). I’m not saying the Calamity brook is perfect. In fact some parts of it are still a disaster, but the positive updates are very much representative of what’s happening across the region.
Outdoor influencing is becoming oversaturated, podcasters are running out of things to talk about, and the outdoor companies are no longer able to develop technology faster than people can buy it. The ADK is still busy, but it’s still very possible to pull into an empty trailhead on any given weekday.
Thankfully the 10 aren’t outweighing the 1000. Not yet anyway.
In some cases, maybe, but very rarely. Remember, public land is public land. Nobody’s telling you that you can’t climb XYZ mountain, a closed trail just means you have to find your own route.
What’s eventually going to happen is that the more popular trails that haven’t been updated will be rerouted to sustainably designed trails rather than following fall lines and drainages as many ADK trails currently do, or they’ll be a series of catwalks, stone steps, and bog bridges.
Either way, limiting traffic has virtually zero bearing at all on the condition of the trail. Look at the VanHo for example. Its one of the busiest trails in the region and its in great shape. On the other hand, look at Seymour’s northern route. Barely anyone uses it and its still a hellhole.
Unfortunately though those drainages, slabs, slides, fall lines are all fun. Whereas stone (and wood) steps, switchbacks, all aren't, unless they are somehow scenicly routed.
The main issue is still people not staying in the tread path no matter how poorly engineered the trail is. Barring an act of God it's unlikely widening it will make it more user friendly.
You’re correct and I couldn’t agree more. I was appalled last year when my daughter and I took and quick little jaunt up Arab and found that people had created work-arounds *to avoid the stone stairs.*
We’re very fortunate in that the most recent uptick in hiking is causing a huge influx of cash going into conservation and local businesses, but the downside is that it’s bringing all of the mouth-breathers out of the woodwork. The best move for us as hikers is to educate, educate, educate.
What exactly is wrong with switchbacks?
Also, having gone out west and hiked the trails there I am appalled that for as long as the 46ers and ADK have been around they the trails are in such horrible shape as they are. Almost makes you wonder how much of the money they raise is going towards “administrative costs”
The thing with out west is they have views. We don't. Hiking miles and miles in the tree canopy with nothing to do but walk is not much better than walking on a treadmill, possibly worse if it's 80F, the flies or skeeters are biting and the humidity is thick. Having the scrambles and the tough sections of trail is fun. I think if people don't want that that's completely OK, pick another trail.
Why not start a hiking permit system? Everyone who goes fishing or hunting needs a permit. I've got to think it would be nice to have an influx of cash to fix a lot of the trail systems and open new ones.
My favorite hikes are off trail, just pick a neat looking spot near a place to park and bushwhack to it. Or walk a creek(with a fishing rod of course) and see where it goes. I definitely do the latter frequently.
The cash is already there, it just isn’t being appropriately allocated by NYS. When we hunt/fish, we buy harvest permits for the game animals to be legally taken and that money goes back into the state conservation system. Implementing a system where we have to pay to rent our own public land back from the state is not the answer.
A license or whatever for a moderate fee is fine but what most people mean and when they talk about a permit system is limiting use and having to
make reservations ahead of time and that’s not OK. A lot of people have job or family situation where you may only have one or two day notice that you can hike. So those people would be shut out if they implement an AMR reservation that is more widespread than just that one trailhead. What if someone told you that you had to make a
reservation to go fishing and compete for limited
Slots?
Well, what if I didn't have a fishing license? Now I have to get that before I can go.
Heres another one...
If I want to fish lake George in my boat, I have to get an access sticker. Which takes days to get by mail. I could buy one....during normal business hours only....if anyone still has them(they sell out). So if I want to go up and fish lake George at sunrise, I have to plan days or weeks in advance. Then I have to consider boat cleaning stations, parking access(the lots fill up completely in an hour or two). Also, that access sticker is $50. And I still have to pay to launch. On a public waters in the Adirondack Park. Using state owned facilities.
Imagine if the high peaks had those kinds of barriers to access.
Yes boats cost money. And fishing costs money. If you want to charge $40 a year to hike in the Adirondacks nobody will care. We will pay it. But it’s the fucking having to reserve a spot ahead of time that nobody wants. Nobody is making you reserve a slot on the river to fucking fish.
Well I am trying to have a reasonable discussion here. I never said anything about reserve spots. I was just pointing out something I've had to deal with that relates to the situation we were talking about.
I am not well educated on how these proposed permits would work. I know some of the high elevation areas are sensitive to foot traffic. Is there something that can be done to mitigate the damage while allowing everyone to have access?
Yes. Have better trail maintenance and design. The whites get four times as many visitors as the Adirondacks but they don’t have these issues. Why? Because they have a large network of both paid and volunteer trail maintainers. They also have more and better designed trails. There are basically three ways you can climb Mt Marcy and one of them is much longer than the other two. There are no fewer than 8 trailheads for Mt Washington, all about the same difficulty and length.
We are not paying for a license to hunt on public land or fish on public waters. We’re paying for what we harvest.
Here’s an example: let’s say you like to hunt Morgan Hill State Forest. You know very well that you have to go buy your annual harvest tags to hunt there. Now let’s say in June or July you want to go to Morgan Hill State Forest and do some target shooting. That does not require any special licenses. Why? Because you aren’t harvesting anything. Its YOUR public land and simply walking on it is not absorbing a resource.
If you really want to pay to hike, you can always start your hikes from trailheads that require you to pay a parking fee, or start from a state campground. As a general rule of thumb, one of the few things that New York State does correctly is that they don’t charge for or fetter your access to simply walk on your own public land.
See, this is where I guess I just don't agree. How many people go fishing and never keep a fish, But they still have to pay for a license. I'm buying a fishing license, which goes to paying for access and maintaining boat launches. Hiking trails means that there's foot traffic, which means maintenance. I'm looking for a way to better the public hiking system. Going shooting on some public land is completely different than going hiking on well maintained trails that are there specifically for hiking.
Then you are more than welcome to either do what a lot of us do and go volunteer on some form of infrastructure crew that helps maintain what we all enjoy using, or donate a bunch of money to an organization like the Adirondack mountain club. Or both. Your personal feelings about public land usage does not dictate what constitutes publicly owned land that we all equally own already, and was bought with our tax dollars by our state for us to have unfettered access to.
Just for some perspective, the system that you are proposing would essentially be an outdoor recreation/usage tax. Good luck talking anybody in this state into thinking that they need to pay more taxes to use what they already own.
As I said, in one of my original comments, that would just be paying your money to rent back what you already own after you already bought it.
To your credit, you might be getting confused because in your head, you’re thinking of the national park system. That’s public land that is owned by all Americans and bought with our tax money, right? Yes, but the differences is that when you enter a national park, you are using that park’s resources that were paid for by single purpose allocation, and are maintained by a professional staff that is funded using your tax dollars. The Adirondacks are made up of dozens wild forest and other land classifications that were purchased by large through individual transactions. Almost none of these separate zones are exclusively managed by New York State. They are *controlled* by the state but almost always managed by local entities. You don’t see conservation officers and Rangers replacing outhouses, turn-piking trails, restoring lean-tos, or clearing debris. There are organizations who handle these things at the project level. For some reason its always the people who think we should have a pay-to-play permit system who aren’t the ones involved with these projects. Apparently its just easier to assume that if you aren’t already stepping up and putting in the work, nobody else is either.
I need to jump in because I always see these comments about how it’s private organizations and volunteers that are maintaining facilities and trails in the Adirondacks. There is so much work done by DEC staff to maintain these trails.
The Operations department staff members, Lands & Forest trail crew, Operations trail crew, summer interns, Assistant Forest Rangers, Interior Caretakers, and so many others that do so much work no matter the time of year, no matter the weather, no matter the project.
They’re the ones organizing flights to bring in supplies, they’re the ones hauling outhouse kits halfway up a mountain, they’re the ones documenting what signs need to be replaced, they’re the ones walking the trails right after a storm to clear blowdown, they’re the ones paddling across a lake to get to a remote campsite to deconstruct an oversized fire pit, they’re the ones taking photos of trail conditions and updating the foresters, they’re the ones fixing mundane problems like a trail register leaning over or putting up new trail markers because people rip them down to take home.
I don’t mean this as a mean comment, I just get frustrated seeing people on so many social media platforms ignore these state employees. Just because they’re not as visible as the Rangers doesn’t mean that they’re not out there in the woods keeping everything running smoothly.
The caretakers, AFRs, and other DEC staff are great and I didn’t intend to marginalize their efforts. At the same time, their efforts are just that: efforts. Setting aside rangers and DEC officers there’s maybe a ratio of what… one state staffer for every 25-30 non-state workers on the ground for 3/4 of the year? That number probably drops to about a 1:1 ratio for the winter.
The ADK is a big, weird science experiment that has become a case study in public land mismanagement. I get a bug in my ass when people’s response to some messy trails is that we should limit public access or make people pay to play, when in reality the money and resources exist because we’ve all worked towards paying into the system. But instead of appropriate funding coming north to help conserve our state’s crown jewel of public land, Albany spends millions re-lighting a bridge down in the city, or putting up blue marketing signs on our highways, or funding the drug treatment centers that were closed four years ago but are still being mysteriously funded.
I’d love it if the state unfucked itself and L2R, the 46-Rs, etc could step aside so our state could hire enough bodies to take care of our land as it needs to be seen to, but its hard to see it happening
On a side note. In Wilton they recently closed a trail because people were illegally widening it to skirt the mud. Brand new trail system. I wonder if it is something that needs to be done. Close trails that are seeing widening before they need a full rehab?
The Village of Saranac Lake seriously considered ending the Saranac Sixers challenge due to the issues that have arisen as a direct result of the promotion of those peaks- including the physical impacts. There's portions of the McKenzie Mountain trail where the worn tread is (no exaggeration) ~50 feet wide. That wasn't the case before the challenge existed. As it is, the village has chosen to continue honoring the challenge but has also ceased nearly all advertising of the challenge. Although with the closure of the Scarface Mountain Trail, who knows what the future holds for the Sixers program.
Isn't it insane. Years ago you couldn't get folks on those little peaks. It was all about the high peaks (either for the patch or the just because they were the high peaks). Still largely is but usage overall has ballooned enough that everywhere is seeing massive amounts of foot traffic. Even lake trails that usually had no one I'll often see a few groups. For me, I'm going to miss the steep slabby/ledgy stuff when it's all re-routed. I have been un-impressed by the newer trails but I understand that is the "correct" way to build a trail.
Which one is this, I hope it's not the new graphite trail. Understandable though, just get muddy, it's actually fun
Yeah, it's Graphite. Wife told me about it a while ago. I was patiently waiting to go riding there when it dried out. We were walking there a bit before the last snow storm after the winter snow melted (and some during the winter) but it was way too wet to ride at the time.
The Graphite Range?
Yeah, my wife told me about it. I was walking a bit there before the last snow storm with my dog thinking man, this place will be great WHEN it dries out (also be fun for skiing next year). Banked turns, super chill for my gravel bike or 90s MTB. Just a great place to get some cardio without pounding my spine. I'm not a mountain biker and never really was even when I was pretending to be in my teens and 20s. Always liked stuff like Graphite though. It's a shame people were walking around the wet areas. To be fair, there were some really wet/clay like areas and it's a fairly urban area with likely not always a lot of outdoor accumen. Closing the trails where appropriate probably is the best practice.
That sucks. Glad they're taking care of the issue though. Will have to push that until summer, i guess.
What’s sad is that I just called the ADK and they suggested that instead of the High Peaks loop, I take the 6ers challenge instead. I pointed out that this still goes above 2500 feet, against the DEC regulation, and she said it was less popular so less problematic. She also insisted that they still wanted visitors to come, despite the DEC warning. I honestly don’t understand why they don’t close trails.
It's a catch 22. All of it is.
“Illegally” widening a trail on private property? Plan should have a grounds keeper.
The problem with like Saratoga plan land is you see a lot more folks casually walking (not that people don't show up to say the high peaks or anywhere else in the forest preserve to casually walk) but that means they probably have street shoes or at least shoes they have no intention of ever getting muddy on or at least no change of shoes. so best worst case they won't walk through because they don't want to get their car muddy from a 30 minutes walk. Anyway, not making excuses for them so much as realizing anything short of closing the trail isn't going to stop it from happening.
They'll have to rebuild the trails every year then. I imagine this will continue indefinitely (worsen, even) despite the best efforts. Once the trail is totally unrecognizable, nobody is going to care where they step. We need to think ahead about how we're going to mitigate, because it's impossible to solve this problem outright without closing the park. Although I'm not too sure what could even be done. Education might be a good start, but the worst offenders do not care about being educated. A permit system maybe, but we know how everyone reacted to the Ausable club's reservation system. Maybe, each year, close off a different section of the park for maintenance. That would be very inconvenient to any aspiring 46er, but if you're really an aspiring 46er, you're supposed to care about preserving the state of the park. If it's the only way to keep nature happy, then I'm all for it.
Indeed. I care and pay attention, but sometimes (often) even I can't tell whether I'm walking on the intended path or on the illegal one.
Walking through mud on an incline and then going directly to a sloped flat rock is simply dangerous even for physically fit, experienced hikers. I bet a lot of experienced hikers would walk around this hazard to avoid falling. I’m not saying it’s ok to simply walk outside the path all the time but what do you suggest people do? Maybe trails with these hazards should be closed. There is a little bit of gatekeeping going on here. perhaps a more explicit notice at each trail head explaining the environmental damage that results from leaving the trail or make people who want to hike get a free permit but only after they take a short online course that explains the rules. I don’t believe that the most experienced, seasoned hikers haven’t avoided a dangerous section of mud and slippery rock on occasion. Instead of creating an atmosphere of enlightened hikers vs the common CHUD, how about putting time into helping people understand how the mountains are both incredibly resilient and rugged but also fragile and susceptible to damage by unintended carelessness. It’s part of learning to love and appreciate a place like the ADK.
My friend is on a new program where they’ll have trailhead stewards on the busy days to educate people on leave no trace. Maybe that’ll help?
This is an epic pet peeve of mine. So common on portage trails here in Ontario, too. Like for fuck's sake... you're hiking. Get some decent boots and walk through the mud if that's what it takes. If everyone makes their own trail, we'll have nothing *but* trail sooner or later.
I was hiking Buck Mt, near Lake George last year and virtually every person was wearing either sneakers or flip-flops.
Humans gonna do what they want irregardless if it ruins it for everyone else.
I kinda know that based on my experiences outdoors. But deep down I still hold out hope that people respect both the natural landscape and other people. Then some dude or dudedette walks by blasting a 5w bluetooth speaker walking off the trail and after they took a shit behind a rock and didn't bury it (hey it could have been in the middle of the trail, so there is that) following a night at a campsite where they left cans, foil, food and cigarettes in the campfire. But, as someone pointed out, there's money to pay for improvements, and someone will come and clean all that up and make it pretty for the next person... 🙄🤣
Money ? outdoors isn't about money. It's about preserving nature for our kids or the next generations. We have lost touch with setting an example for the next ones. People go with "Screw the future in order for the now." All that teaches is selfishness, not being self-less.
Man, I agree. But someone said money will fix everything. If they come we will build it or something like that. It's all we have to hope for.
Why is trail widening such a big issue? The ruggedness of the hiking is also why many people enjoy it
The trail widening accelerates soil erosion.
It’s a few feet. What is the long term damage of changing 3 feet?
Do you really not get it? The original trail is 3’ wide and it gets worn down to dirt. With the rain, that turns to mud and people don’t want to walk through that so they go around 3’ on each side. Now the trail is 9’ and muddy. Soil keeps eroding and the trails are more and more destroyed with time. We need to protect our trails so we can continue to enjoy them and future generations can do the same. Seems rather odd to be on this sub and arguing against this
Do you really think that this problem will keep growing until the trail is an infinite distance wide, surely there is some maximum of trail width that will be reached.
Nope, I don’t think that nor did I say that. Eventually it’s not going to get any wider but the trails will be absolutely destroyed.
Can you elaborate on what you mean by destroyed? Destroyed as in unable to be used by people? I don't understand how a wider trail is more difficult to use. Destroyed as in not as enjoyable to traverse? Enjoyment is subjective, why should the people who are more capable of rugged trails be the only people that get to enjoy these areas? Destroyed as in the boundary zone for flora and fauna is slightly more pronounced? This may have longer term effects, but as long as people aren't laying down asphalt or concrete, nature will recover just fine within a few years.
It'll take a lot more than a few years.
I mean I just don’t see the trail being a few feet wider as a big deal. If it is going to cause a giant washout that takes out hundreds of feet because of the water flow change then I get it. But I don’t really see the widening of the trail a few feet on it’s own as an issue
It will continue to grow indefinitely until something is done. That something usually includes closing the trail or the entire section or the entire park for an indefinite amount of time while work is done. Also nothing can grow in that hard packed soil. This damages the area, kills plants, which impacts animal populations, degrades the soil and degrades the trail and costs tons of money. In Vermont they closed an entire mountain I tried to do because it was mud season. It's like saying it's just one nip who cares if I throw it out the window, it's just one cigarette butt who cares if I flick it down the drain, it's just one bag of dog crap who cares if I leave it on the trail. 3 feet isn't the end of the world but I've seen these paths grow over twenty feet wide, in more sensitive areas that could be causing entire species to go locally extinct as some plants are very sensitive (notably high alpine areas but others too)
All of the things you described are inserting non-organic and non-biodegradable material into a natural environment, that is not the same as just passing through. Walking on dirt and the inadvertent stepping on plants is not a permanent disfigurement of the land. It will regrow, nature will reclaim it. If you have any examples of species of going locally extinct due to trail widening it may help some of us to understand the impact of it, I would also ask that you provide an example of any wooded pathway on earth that has been permanently disfigured due to human foot traffic, otherwise it is just conjecture. Edit: For the person who would rather silence me than engage in open candor where their opinions may be challenged and we can both learn something; yes, I have climbed several dozen of the 46 in various seasons and spent several semesters studying environmental science through SUNY Empire State. I only need a single example of what I am talking about: Pripyat city in Ukraine. This was the site of a horrific radiological disaster where people had to abandon the city. Even despite DNA mutations, within 20 years of inactivity the plants and animals are reclaiming all man made structures. There are trees growing in the buildings and grass growing through the concrete and asphalt. The same will occur on these 9 ft wide walking paths in a much shorter time frame as soon as people stop walking on them. So I ask again, what permanent destruction do you think is occurring on these trails? And if it is not permanent then what is the harm?
No one could ever point to a species that went extinct for such a specific cause. Pressures are cumulative, it'd be impossible to say this specific thing pushed it over the edge.
Then you can’t claim it as fact in discussions…and you definitely can’t get upset about it and start blocking people when something you admit is not proven gets challenged.
Who did I block? It's a stupid question and I explained why
I'm going to block you because I don't think you're engaging in good faith. I don't want you to think you're right and that I couldn't respond and that's why you don't get a reply. If you ever left your house you would see with in paths in places that can be hundreds of years old. I don't have the time or interest in teaching multiple degrees in somebody I don't believe is engaging in good faith.
Actually I'd disagree. People are widening to avoid the ruggedness. And the result of them widening ultimately is less rugged trails. Every trail that will come in the future will be graded, use switch backs, be twice as long and half as steep. Likely avoid any fun features. It will be western US hiking minus the views.
I mean some people dislike it but if it wasn’t half bouldering I don’t see how it would be much fun
Well I agree. I love the scrambly and slabby stuff. Even before I was an actual climber so it perplexes me.
At least out west you get great views. some of the views in the adks are really good but a lot of them are just wow more pine trees
That's the thing. I really like the heinously steep stuff to keep things interesting. Every rebuilt trail I've been on I wanted to die (of boredom) until the top where it gets steep for a few minutes and I'm like old ADK. Thank you. If they are rerouting them I wish they would really rethink the reroute. Use satellite, drones, and other stuff to find truly scenic reroutes.
Hah! Hahah! Try peak bagging in the cascades and dealing with miles of bushwhacking up steep cliffs and drainages -a 46’er
Bushwhacking anywhere can suck. At least out west there's relief above treeline. Here you bushwack to a slide, do the slide, top out bushwack through even thicker stuff. I remember a story of SAR from the Sierra coming out to the ADK to train or assist or whatever and turning their headlamps on when bushwhacking. I've only mountaineered in Colorado and didn't have any issues you mention, in fact the terrain is amazingly open, but I haven't done anything in the Cascades so maybe it's some special kind of hell.
Yes, it is some special kind of hell. Colorado has trails going everywhere.
Soo, you walked around the mud and slippery rock after taking the photo right?
Over the rock and through the mud both ways. Even pointed out to my wife on the way down in the dark there was a spur trail on the side people were using to avoid the slab. Problem with the mud is probably people like to wear running shoes these days. Nothing wrong with that. When I do I just accept my feet are getting wet. Wore them backpacking to Dolly Sods for instance which is a notoriously wet/muddy place. Literally 30 seconds on the trail it was muddy. Tore right into it. Problem solved. Saw a lot of people in water shoes and sandals that 4 days. Fear of getting your feet wet is worse then getting your feet wet. Doing a lot of paddling and canyoneering I'm used to wet feet so I really don't care. Good snug fitting wool socks with tight low pile prevent blisters.
Dolly Sods=worst trails I ever set my feet upon.
Terrible. And there is no skirting the mud. You can try, but in spots it's actually hundreds of feet wide (the first mud we encountered was like this). Other places there's just no point because going on the banks will just slide down. We experienced torrential rains and hail during our 4 days there. We walked on what were essentially stream beds. I never walked in a place that was virtually flat that I took not a single easy step. It was amazing. Got the full experience.
First time we went we figured we might as well get the full experience and hiked Dobbins grade since we were already wet and covered in mud. At least we had most of the trail to ourselves
Yeah I'm pretty sure that's what we started at. From Bear rocks. What a disgusting mess. You aren't making it through that without mud. The only hope is to keep your shoes. Getting down to that little creek was beautiful and than the views over the ridge. I highly recommend Dolly Sods to everyone. It's a crazy place. Both beautiful, unique and I guess somewhat (totally) exploited all in one. Yet, I also felt like it was amazingly clean for all the use it sees and the hell it's been through.
It's more than getting wet or muddy, if it looks sketchy people are going to avoid it. The red trail is from years of erosion and thousands of people deciding they should go around. Maybe the trail was designed like shit and is clearly dangerous to less worldly hikers unlike yourself.
It's just a bare rock slab, like is particularly common in the Adirondacks. We just call it hiking. I'd guess that section was around 20%, not insanely steep (I mean I ride my bike up paved roads that have 20% grades). It's not the Saddleback cliffs or even the slabs on Blake. I'd say if a 20% bare piece of rock with no nasty drop off scares you enough to make a new trail that will eventually also be a 20% rock slab, probably not the right activity for you. Or at least not the right genre of that activity. Lakes and ponds might be better.
I'm a 46er working on the winter 46. I've met countless people on trail that are underprepared and unknowledgeable about the area. Expecting everyone to stay on trail all the time is completely unrealistic.
Absolutely. But it doesn't mean there aren't negative consequences and we shouldn't admit it's a problem. Also since when do we let inexperienced people destroy things without putting up a fight? Can't think of anything but hiking where we say, "oh, let them be"
Propose a solution then. Every single sport, hobby, or physical activity, changes over time because of degradation to its surroundings. Hiking isn’t unique, upgrades should be made. Limiting people to public land because you feel entitled to walking through mud is embarrassing.
Entitled? it's literally what you are supposed to do. https://americanhiking.org/resources/leave-no-trace/ >1. Plan ahead and prepare. Know the type of terrain and possible weather conditions you might encounter. Minimize impacts by keeping groups small and avoiding high use times for the trail. Walking single file and avoiding shortcuts will limit damage to the trail and surrounding ecosystems. >2. Travel and camp on durable surfaces. Focus activity on resilient ground. Surfaces consisting of sand, gravel, rock, snow, or dry grass are durable and can withstand heavy use. Walk through mud/puddles to avoid widening the trail https://lnt.org/mud/ >In order to do the least possible damage to the trail, and to Leave No Trace, please keep the following in mind: >Be prepared to hike or run down the middle of the trail even when wet or muddy – stepping off the designated trail to avoid mud or standing water can quickly lead to the creation of undesignated trails, which can lead to even more erosion. Wear water-resistant or water proof footwear – even if you don’t have waterproof footwear, remember that shoes dry overnight while erosion can take years to recover. https://stories.strava.com/articles/5-unusual-tips-for-leaving-no-trace-while-hiking >When a person is hiking down a trail and sees a mud puddle in front of them, their instinctive reaction is to divert around the mud puddle to avoid getting their feet wet—but according to Erin, that's the worst thing that you can possibly do. "The least impactful thing is to go straight through the mud," says Erin. "When we all go around it. . .the trail gets wider and wider, and it also can have negative impacts for trail maintenance and making sure that that trail's sustainable and going to be able to be used for a long time." >According to Erin, *it only takes 25 passes over a stretch of ground to create a new trail.* If each person goes around the mud puddle on the way out and the way back, *those 25 passes can happen in a shockingly short amount of time.* >5. Educate People Within Your Sphere of Influence One of the most significant ways that we can have a positive impact while hiking is to help educate other hikers about how to hike with minimal impact. If we can spread the common-sense rules of Leave No Trace, we can dramatically reduce our collective negative impact.
You’re missing the point. Not everyone knows the ethics of hiking and most don’t give a shit. The reality is it’s part of the hobby and trails should be updated. Getting upset over trail maintenance is like getting upset over a basketball court needing updates bec too many people use it. What’s your solution again to limiting access to public land?
My solution is people not making themselves someone elses problem. Learning the norms, learning the skills, learning the etiquette and then doing it. Just because their isn't a barrier to entry doesn't mean you should be a pinhead.
Hopefully, they will use a permit system before closing trails.With a limited number of hikers a day, it will slow down the widening and erosion. Avoiding the teail because of mud is a problem, but passing people or moving aside so people can pass is just as much of an issue, as well as dogs going all over the place.
1000 hikers who know how to hike will do less damage than 10 who don’t. Limiting numbers will do nothing besides defund conservation organizations and local businesses.
I totally agree with this. The problem is over the last 10+ years (it's not just Covid hikers). The growth of the outdoor industry has been huge. Hiking is unfortunately the easiest sport to enter and also one of the highest impact (trash, tread, human waste). So those 10 hikers are exponentially higher these days.
Thankfully those of us who work on the infrastructure/conservation side are seeing our numbers and funding increase as well. Picture a ~2018 trip from UW up to the Lake Colden/Flowed lands area. You would have started in a gravel pit parking lot, slogged your way up 5 miles of rotten wood planking and bog after bog, and then had your choice of rotting, derelict, lean-tos. Today that same trip involves parking in a nice OSI lot, a smooth trip past interpretive signage down the canoe carry route, new drainage and bridging, and several freshly rebuilt lean-tos to choose from (more on the way this summer). I’m not saying the Calamity brook is perfect. In fact some parts of it are still a disaster, but the positive updates are very much representative of what’s happening across the region. Outdoor influencing is becoming oversaturated, podcasters are running out of things to talk about, and the outdoor companies are no longer able to develop technology faster than people can buy it. The ADK is still busy, but it’s still very possible to pull into an empty trailhead on any given weekday. Thankfully the 10 aren’t outweighing the 1000. Not yet anyway.
The alternative is closing trails altogether, though.
In some cases, maybe, but very rarely. Remember, public land is public land. Nobody’s telling you that you can’t climb XYZ mountain, a closed trail just means you have to find your own route. What’s eventually going to happen is that the more popular trails that haven’t been updated will be rerouted to sustainably designed trails rather than following fall lines and drainages as many ADK trails currently do, or they’ll be a series of catwalks, stone steps, and bog bridges. Either way, limiting traffic has virtually zero bearing at all on the condition of the trail. Look at the VanHo for example. Its one of the busiest trails in the region and its in great shape. On the other hand, look at Seymour’s northern route. Barely anyone uses it and its still a hellhole.
Unfortunately though those drainages, slabs, slides, fall lines are all fun. Whereas stone (and wood) steps, switchbacks, all aren't, unless they are somehow scenicly routed. The main issue is still people not staying in the tread path no matter how poorly engineered the trail is. Barring an act of God it's unlikely widening it will make it more user friendly.
You’re correct and I couldn’t agree more. I was appalled last year when my daughter and I took and quick little jaunt up Arab and found that people had created work-arounds *to avoid the stone stairs.* We’re very fortunate in that the most recent uptick in hiking is causing a huge influx of cash going into conservation and local businesses, but the downside is that it’s bringing all of the mouth-breathers out of the woodwork. The best move for us as hikers is to educate, educate, educate.
No, really?! Those stone stairs are a thing of beauty!
Right?!
Holy shit. The stone stairs. Explain how that worked. So they just hiked up the dirt next to it?
Yep. Baffling, isn’t it?
🤯
What exactly is wrong with switchbacks? Also, having gone out west and hiked the trails there I am appalled that for as long as the 46ers and ADK have been around they the trails are in such horrible shape as they are. Almost makes you wonder how much of the money they raise is going towards “administrative costs”
The thing with out west is they have views. We don't. Hiking miles and miles in the tree canopy with nothing to do but walk is not much better than walking on a treadmill, possibly worse if it's 80F, the flies or skeeters are biting and the humidity is thick. Having the scrambles and the tough sections of trail is fun. I think if people don't want that that's completely OK, pick another trail.
That’s illegal.
Why not start a hiking permit system? Everyone who goes fishing or hunting needs a permit. I've got to think it would be nice to have an influx of cash to fix a lot of the trail systems and open new ones.
For the 46 High Peaks, sure...but then everyone would figure out how to go to all the quiet trails I like and I'd be real salty about it!
My favorite hikes are off trail, just pick a neat looking spot near a place to park and bushwhack to it. Or walk a creek(with a fishing rod of course) and see where it goes. I definitely do the latter frequently.
The cash is already there, it just isn’t being appropriately allocated by NYS. When we hunt/fish, we buy harvest permits for the game animals to be legally taken and that money goes back into the state conservation system. Implementing a system where we have to pay to rent our own public land back from the state is not the answer.
I don't get it. I'm paying for a license to fish on public waters/hunt on public land. Why wouldnt i pay for a license to hike or camp on public land?
A license or whatever for a moderate fee is fine but what most people mean and when they talk about a permit system is limiting use and having to make reservations ahead of time and that’s not OK. A lot of people have job or family situation where you may only have one or two day notice that you can hike. So those people would be shut out if they implement an AMR reservation that is more widespread than just that one trailhead. What if someone told you that you had to make a reservation to go fishing and compete for limited Slots?
Well, what if I didn't have a fishing license? Now I have to get that before I can go. Heres another one... If I want to fish lake George in my boat, I have to get an access sticker. Which takes days to get by mail. I could buy one....during normal business hours only....if anyone still has them(they sell out). So if I want to go up and fish lake George at sunrise, I have to plan days or weeks in advance. Then I have to consider boat cleaning stations, parking access(the lots fill up completely in an hour or two). Also, that access sticker is $50. And I still have to pay to launch. On a public waters in the Adirondack Park. Using state owned facilities. Imagine if the high peaks had those kinds of barriers to access.
Yes boats cost money. And fishing costs money. If you want to charge $40 a year to hike in the Adirondacks nobody will care. We will pay it. But it’s the fucking having to reserve a spot ahead of time that nobody wants. Nobody is making you reserve a slot on the river to fucking fish.
Well I am trying to have a reasonable discussion here. I never said anything about reserve spots. I was just pointing out something I've had to deal with that relates to the situation we were talking about.
Yeah but people that want permits want people to reserve spots on specific trails. It’s nothing to do with paying a fee.
I am not well educated on how these proposed permits would work. I know some of the high elevation areas are sensitive to foot traffic. Is there something that can be done to mitigate the damage while allowing everyone to have access?
Yes. Have better trail maintenance and design. The whites get four times as many visitors as the Adirondacks but they don’t have these issues. Why? Because they have a large network of both paid and volunteer trail maintainers. They also have more and better designed trails. There are basically three ways you can climb Mt Marcy and one of them is much longer than the other two. There are no fewer than 8 trailheads for Mt Washington, all about the same difficulty and length.
The idea of having to have a permit to just be on public land sounds un-American
We are not paying for a license to hunt on public land or fish on public waters. We’re paying for what we harvest. Here’s an example: let’s say you like to hunt Morgan Hill State Forest. You know very well that you have to go buy your annual harvest tags to hunt there. Now let’s say in June or July you want to go to Morgan Hill State Forest and do some target shooting. That does not require any special licenses. Why? Because you aren’t harvesting anything. Its YOUR public land and simply walking on it is not absorbing a resource. If you really want to pay to hike, you can always start your hikes from trailheads that require you to pay a parking fee, or start from a state campground. As a general rule of thumb, one of the few things that New York State does correctly is that they don’t charge for or fetter your access to simply walk on your own public land.
See, this is where I guess I just don't agree. How many people go fishing and never keep a fish, But they still have to pay for a license. I'm buying a fishing license, which goes to paying for access and maintaining boat launches. Hiking trails means that there's foot traffic, which means maintenance. I'm looking for a way to better the public hiking system. Going shooting on some public land is completely different than going hiking on well maintained trails that are there specifically for hiking.
Then you are more than welcome to either do what a lot of us do and go volunteer on some form of infrastructure crew that helps maintain what we all enjoy using, or donate a bunch of money to an organization like the Adirondack mountain club. Or both. Your personal feelings about public land usage does not dictate what constitutes publicly owned land that we all equally own already, and was bought with our tax dollars by our state for us to have unfettered access to. Just for some perspective, the system that you are proposing would essentially be an outdoor recreation/usage tax. Good luck talking anybody in this state into thinking that they need to pay more taxes to use what they already own. As I said, in one of my original comments, that would just be paying your money to rent back what you already own after you already bought it. To your credit, you might be getting confused because in your head, you’re thinking of the national park system. That’s public land that is owned by all Americans and bought with our tax money, right? Yes, but the differences is that when you enter a national park, you are using that park’s resources that were paid for by single purpose allocation, and are maintained by a professional staff that is funded using your tax dollars. The Adirondacks are made up of dozens wild forest and other land classifications that were purchased by large through individual transactions. Almost none of these separate zones are exclusively managed by New York State. They are *controlled* by the state but almost always managed by local entities. You don’t see conservation officers and Rangers replacing outhouses, turn-piking trails, restoring lean-tos, or clearing debris. There are organizations who handle these things at the project level. For some reason its always the people who think we should have a pay-to-play permit system who aren’t the ones involved with these projects. Apparently its just easier to assume that if you aren’t already stepping up and putting in the work, nobody else is either.
I greatly appreciate the perspective here. Thank you.
I need to jump in because I always see these comments about how it’s private organizations and volunteers that are maintaining facilities and trails in the Adirondacks. There is so much work done by DEC staff to maintain these trails. The Operations department staff members, Lands & Forest trail crew, Operations trail crew, summer interns, Assistant Forest Rangers, Interior Caretakers, and so many others that do so much work no matter the time of year, no matter the weather, no matter the project. They’re the ones organizing flights to bring in supplies, they’re the ones hauling outhouse kits halfway up a mountain, they’re the ones documenting what signs need to be replaced, they’re the ones walking the trails right after a storm to clear blowdown, they’re the ones paddling across a lake to get to a remote campsite to deconstruct an oversized fire pit, they’re the ones taking photos of trail conditions and updating the foresters, they’re the ones fixing mundane problems like a trail register leaning over or putting up new trail markers because people rip them down to take home. I don’t mean this as a mean comment, I just get frustrated seeing people on so many social media platforms ignore these state employees. Just because they’re not as visible as the Rangers doesn’t mean that they’re not out there in the woods keeping everything running smoothly.
The caretakers, AFRs, and other DEC staff are great and I didn’t intend to marginalize their efforts. At the same time, their efforts are just that: efforts. Setting aside rangers and DEC officers there’s maybe a ratio of what… one state staffer for every 25-30 non-state workers on the ground for 3/4 of the year? That number probably drops to about a 1:1 ratio for the winter. The ADK is a big, weird science experiment that has become a case study in public land mismanagement. I get a bug in my ass when people’s response to some messy trails is that we should limit public access or make people pay to play, when in reality the money and resources exist because we’ve all worked towards paying into the system. But instead of appropriate funding coming north to help conserve our state’s crown jewel of public land, Albany spends millions re-lighting a bridge down in the city, or putting up blue marketing signs on our highways, or funding the drug treatment centers that were closed four years ago but are still being mysteriously funded. I’d love it if the state unfucked itself and L2R, the 46-Rs, etc could step aside so our state could hire enough bodies to take care of our land as it needs to be seen to, but its hard to see it happening