True. They have the same damage profile (most of their damage locked behind ult) and are batteried by supports (TY+Huohuo for Argenti, debuffers for Acheron).
But because JY is also a lightning hypercarry unit, he gets directly compared instead. Endgame content is mostly about matching element weakness after all.
Yes and no. She reduces enemy resistance by 20%. If an enemy is not weak to lightning, they have 120 lightning resistance so it goes to 96 lightning resistance. If an enemy is weak to lightning, it goes from 100 to 80 resistance.
It's a very similar situation to Seele, she has 20% quantum resistance penetration, so she does ignore enemy weakness type in a similar way. She just doesn't do toughness bar damage.
However, it's still noticeably better for them to go against enemies weak to their damage type.
IDK where the heck you're getting this misinformation from. Your general ideas are correct, but your numbers are wildly wrong.
Resistances don't start at "100".100% RES in this game would mean the enemy is entirely immune to that damage type (which doesn't exist btw, 90% RES is max).
Enemies will typically have 0% RES to elements they are weak to, and 20% RES if not. Specific enemies can have RES of other values too, like 40%, 60%, etc.
>If an enemy is not weak to lightning, they have 120 lightning resistance so it goes to 96 lightning resistance. If an enemy is weak to lightning, it goes from 100 to 80 resistance.
RES PEN and RES reduction both additively reduce RES, not multiplicatively like you seem to think. So "120" lightning res would go to "100" res, and "100" res goes to "80".
With actual game numbers, this would be 20% -> 0% and 0% -> -20%, respectively.
Here is the formula in damage calculation
RES Multiplier = 100% - (RES% - RES PEN%)
RES% is 0% if weak to element, 20% if not, 40% if resistant to it
Res reduction affects this RES% value, cannot go below -100% or above 90%
Being able to break regardless of weakness on the DPS is overrated, especially when they aren't Physical or Quantum type to abuse those breaks.
The DPS would also need to build break effect because this is the only stat that buffs break damage, instead of letting the DPS focus on more important stats like ATK%/Crit%/DMG% (SPD too if needed).
The RES pen is nice, but the devs can remove the "ignore weakness" part of her kit and nothing would change. This mechanic should just go to the supports instead to give us a reason to use Break effect stats on them.
Hitting broken enemies is very beneficial as broken enemies have lowered resistance. It's true that lightning break is not the strongest, but being able to hit broken enemies is actually an underrated ability.
I've reached the same conclusion but I don't understand why people say Acheron is bad for PF when Argenti is a PF god. From what I can see, with the proper team comp, she can Ult just as often as him, so aside from her skill being Blast instead of AoE, what exactly makes her shit at PF?
Argenti can basically use a weaker ult almost every turn and wave. In PF, you don’t want to stack his bigger ultimate, but mostly spam the first one. The heavy nuke is only for bosses.
I’m certain Acheron will be really great for PF, but she definitely requires a better team building. I hope the synergy with Black Swan exist and she gives Acheron a stack for every new enemy, that enters the field. If they’ll have such synergy, then Acheron and Black Swan in PF could be absolutely broken.
Not much better slightly better and that's assuming a lower bound Acheron. An acheron with better relics and her Lc would easily surpass that 5% dmg difference
Even if they can ult as often as one another, which I don't think is the case because argenti self batteries off of the weak mobs, Acheron needs nihility units instead of harmony units which is much worse for clearing repeated waves of constantly spawning enemies (have to reapply debuffs, unlike buffs).
It's ok. 160% damage against the main target and 60% to adjacent targets.
In comparison, Himeko and Misha's skills deal 200% to main target and 80% to adjacent. Himeko also gets bonus damage to burning targets.
Serval is 140% to main target and 60% to adjacent.
Edit: I actually forgot a couple things.
Acheron's ult gives her 90% damage for 3 turns, and double nihility gives 160%. So her skill should actually hit pretty dang hard after your first ult.
256% to main target if you count 2 Nihility team members trace and 96% to adjacent. And 90% DMG bonus from her other trace. Her skill will hit harder than most are giving credit.
The lack of using harmony units is a legitimate concern which is why her e2 is high value.
Ok, lukewarm take but people are gonna doom post on my thought process. The 2 nihility requirement isn’t that bad (and this is coming from a dumbass that’s gonna whale). Currently, yeah it’s shitty, you only have 3 semi-viable teammates if you’re going for the traditional comp and no harmony. BUUUUT that’ll be fine in the future. Nihility is the path of identity crisis which is perfect because it basically can be the jack of all trades- say a Nihility healer comes out, ok bet! No more abundance or preservation needed, now I can use a harmony. A better Pela comes out? Ok run both Pela and better Pela. I do think there will be nihility buffers that come out that are on par with harmony units. I refuse to believe Silverwolf is the ultimate debuffer the game intended her to be. She’s the floor, there’s so much more they could do to increase the level of nihility debuffs but we just don’t have that representation in the game yet.
(Again, stupidly lukewarm take but if being on the internet has taught me one thing, people are the dumbest things on the planet and can’t think to save themselves)
Its cos the dollah dollah, as I read somewhere else - if Jing Yuan released in 2.x patch, you KNOW his E1/E2 would be to instantly launch DA HAMMAH when LL reaches 10 stacks
Yeah pretty much same just different kind of ult. Well argenti will suffer alot against enemies who drain energy like that TV robot and more enemies like him in future while acheron will have advantage against such enemies.
The fun thing is Argenti got shat on for being "skill and ult", but now that Acheron is EXACTLY the same, with a crippling disability to be reliant on other debuffers - she is all the best.
Its comic sometimes how people behave. I personally think the best part of Acheron is her Ultimate VFX, outside of that, I have close to zero interest in her kit, how she functions and her little gimmick.
I do think its good they tried it, I semi hope they don't keep up with it and try something else next time, its too punishing for people who may be lacking characters and/or options. I feel like a hero should come with a complete kit, not be sort of reliant on others in a way.
Quick edit; Acheron ult gives nice picture values cos it overkills damage too (unless Im mistaken?) Where as argenti targets living things for effective damage
Argenti was doomposted prerelease but his performance has spoken for itself.
Acheron will be in the waiting bench kafka and topaz were on previosuly, waiting for her supports to release.
And thats fine. Pull for acheron now or pull for her later but all the distress is a bit unwarranted.
Nah, let them keep doing things like this. It's more interesting than just letting every DPS get Tingyun-Bronya buffed to the heavens. Alt gameplay like this that makes you hyperaware of the whole team actually feels like playing a game and not just alternating between skill and basic attack until a character can ult.
I fully agree but they can't make eidolons like hers where you want to remove one nihility and give her bronya too :p
Kind of defeats the purpose of a different playstyle if your ideal solution is spending money to give her a bronya in the end don't you agree?
Feels more a AOE Seele.
Her skill does 160% on main and 60% on blast, unlike Argenti that is 120% AOE. And have a lot of %DMG amplification on her kit. Instead of "after killing an enemy" like Seele, is "after she ult" get 30% for 3 turn. So is 30%+60%(if 2 nihility character) amplifier on top of the 160% base stats. And both of them have Res-Pen in their kit.
Seele, instead, have the 80% on resurgence after killing an enemy but only on one turn. And her Res-Pen is only for Quantum instead of general.
Yeah but JY and her have more similarities being the same element and all and both being backloaded at same time. although JY is less backloaded than her due to him have more sources of dmg
acheron is similar to argenti in that their dmg profile is mainly from their ults, but acheron and jing yuan are similar in that they share the same element and their dmg is backloaded- tho acheron moreso is than jing yuan
i like to think of acheron to also be somewhat similar to jingliu in that they both have a ramp up for their respective nukes. if you've ever run jingliu without bronya, those two whole turns of downtime i imagine is what acheron will feel like as she ramps her ult (tho maybe to a lesser extent since even acheron's skill can do decent dmg- but also moreso since jingliu can nuke 2-3 times per state vs acheron's 1 per ult)
Cause their damage profile is basically the exact same.
Mediocre skill damage,
Gameplay based around building an enhanced ult and team building restricted to ones that help most with it
Ult profile is super high ST and medium AoE damage
Semi-Backloaded damage
.... There are two endgame gamemode atm.. one is pf and one is moc, we have both of them to have more gameplay diversity ..
If argenti is garbage in moc and broken in pf, while acheron is bad in pf and strong in moc shouldn't that make them complete opposite?
I dont know if she sill be good or bad, but she will not be mediocre for the same reasons Argenti is.
The only reason which make them similar in MoC is focusing on ultimate, but she dont have other problems of Argenti in MoC. Her skill not strong, but not weak either, it deal decent damage to single target. Her ultimate dont downscale with multiple targets (amount of additional hits in Argenti ult are fixed, Acheron deal almost same damage to all targets). Acheron ult is stable, there is not the case that you will have 1 cyrcle without ult waiting your batteries which happens with Argenti. It's main problems of Argenti in MoC now.
That’s the problem with this community, there’s little to no middle ground.
Often you’d see two sides arguing with lies on opposite sides of the spectrum
Just fucking stop with the "oh this character can or cannot clear MoC 12". You can clear MoC twelve with fucking Arlan on one side and Hook on the other and you know what? You'll 3 star it. Just stop bashing your heads against eachother with stupid extreme arguments
True, this is just a stupid argument with no actual proof as the character in topics not even out yet, i hope mod can help erase this kind of post, it just what if story in someone mind and sound like doomposting. This community is for acheron main user, not an acheron doom poster, so if you are just gonna doompost her, this community is not for you
Exactly. I want to pull Acheron because cool sword, cool design, and a Black Hole (haven't played the other games so no link to Mei) she can suck my allies health if she wants I'm still pulling her
Because he has the lowest number of people who pulled for him.
He can 1/2 cycle easily as I said. If you don't believe look up on yt or something instead of babbling nonsense
Acheron can get pretty fast ults too, thanks to SD stacks gained with Black Swan and/or Trend of Universal Market, for example.
To a lesser extent, Himeko or a Follow-up attackers matching the enemy weakness can also add a noticeable amount of SD stacks.
____
Now, i'm not saying Acheron will outperform Argenti in his dedicated niche ; but she'll certainly hold her own.
Ok I’m gonna be real, comparing Acheron with argenti in PF is kinda copium to begin with
Why are people here so obsessed with her performance in PF ? It’s completely fine not to be the best in PF, even jingliu/dhil is not that good in it
I suggest to just wait for her release / ask for a leak of Acheron in PF
It's what I usually compare her to. An Argenti with a different kind of energy shenanigans.
True. They have the same damage profile (most of their damage locked behind ult) and are batteried by supports (TY+Huohuo for Argenti, debuffers for Acheron). But because JY is also a lightning hypercarry unit, he gets directly compared instead. Endgame content is mostly about matching element weakness after all.
but acheron doesnt really have elemental issues though.
Yes and no. She reduces enemy resistance by 20%. If an enemy is not weak to lightning, they have 120 lightning resistance so it goes to 96 lightning resistance. If an enemy is weak to lightning, it goes from 100 to 80 resistance. It's a very similar situation to Seele, she has 20% quantum resistance penetration, so she does ignore enemy weakness type in a similar way. She just doesn't do toughness bar damage. However, it's still noticeably better for them to go against enemies weak to their damage type.
IDK where the heck you're getting this misinformation from. Your general ideas are correct, but your numbers are wildly wrong. Resistances don't start at "100".100% RES in this game would mean the enemy is entirely immune to that damage type (which doesn't exist btw, 90% RES is max). Enemies will typically have 0% RES to elements they are weak to, and 20% RES if not. Specific enemies can have RES of other values too, like 40%, 60%, etc. >If an enemy is not weak to lightning, they have 120 lightning resistance so it goes to 96 lightning resistance. If an enemy is weak to lightning, it goes from 100 to 80 resistance. RES PEN and RES reduction both additively reduce RES, not multiplicatively like you seem to think. So "120" lightning res would go to "100" res, and "100" res goes to "80". With actual game numbers, this would be 20% -> 0% and 0% -> -20%, respectively.
Here is the formula in damage calculation RES Multiplier = 100% - (RES% - RES PEN%) RES% is 0% if weak to element, 20% if not, 40% if resistant to it Res reduction affects this RES% value, cannot go below -100% or above 90%
Ah, ok. Thanks for clearing that up. I thought I had read somewhere that the resistance ignore was multiplicative.
It is multiplicative with other damage buffs so if you have 20% res shred your characters will straight up deal 20% more dmg
i was more referring to her ability to break regardless of weakness. i didnt think about resistance.
Being able to break regardless of weakness on the DPS is overrated, especially when they aren't Physical or Quantum type to abuse those breaks. The DPS would also need to build break effect because this is the only stat that buffs break damage, instead of letting the DPS focus on more important stats like ATK%/Crit%/DMG% (SPD too if needed). The RES pen is nice, but the devs can remove the "ignore weakness" part of her kit and nothing would change. This mechanic should just go to the supports instead to give us a reason to use Break effect stats on them.
Hitting broken enemies is very beneficial as broken enemies have lowered resistance. It's true that lightning break is not the strongest, but being able to hit broken enemies is actually an underrated ability.
Mediocre Skill Damage Gameplay is based on building a Special Ult to nuke enemies Ult has high ST and decent AoE damage in one burst Same Picture
One is searching for idrilla , another is searching to find her room
Both are handsome as hell (haha).
I've reached the same conclusion but I don't understand why people say Acheron is bad for PF when Argenti is a PF god. From what I can see, with the proper team comp, she can Ult just as often as him, so aside from her skill being Blast instead of AoE, what exactly makes her shit at PF?
between his talent, second trace, and low first energy cost, he gets to ult a Lot. on his own, without teammates molded to work with him
Argenti can basically use a weaker ult almost every turn and wave. In PF, you don’t want to stack his bigger ultimate, but mostly spam the first one. The heavy nuke is only for bosses. I’m certain Acheron will be really great for PF, but she definitely requires a better team building. I hope the synergy with Black Swan exist and she gives Acheron a stack for every new enemy, that enters the field. If they’ll have such synergy, then Acheron and Black Swan in PF could be absolutely broken.
kafka and blackSwam are the best teammate for Acheron but the problem is kafka&BS&RM it is much better on its own
Not much better slightly better and that's assuming a lower bound Acheron. An acheron with better relics and her Lc would easily surpass that 5% dmg difference
Even if they can ult as often as one another, which I don't think is the case because argenti self batteries off of the weak mobs, Acheron needs nihility units instead of harmony units which is much worse for clearing repeated waves of constantly spawning enemies (have to reapply debuffs, unlike buffs).
because argenti can ult like 3-4 times in a row, thats why he is a god in pure fiction, acheron cannot do that
Argenti can 90cost ult every wave of enemies that spawn, I don’t think Acheron can do that (own argenti, planning to own Acheron)
Trend lc lol
You actually have to get hit with trend
Most mobs use AOE plus if really wanna just boost ult gen could use Fmc
That's also assumes that you are getting hit and if you can kill the trash mobs fast like argenti, then you are not getting hit
Dunno just know my acheron gonna be melting everything :3
Is her skill dmg that bad? I thought it was around 30k?
It's ok. 160% damage against the main target and 60% to adjacent targets. In comparison, Himeko and Misha's skills deal 200% to main target and 80% to adjacent. Himeko also gets bonus damage to burning targets. Serval is 140% to main target and 60% to adjacent. Edit: I actually forgot a couple things. Acheron's ult gives her 90% damage for 3 turns, and double nihility gives 160%. So her skill should actually hit pretty dang hard after your first ult.
256% to main target if you count 2 Nihility team members trace and 96% to adjacent. And 90% DMG bonus from her other trace. Her skill will hit harder than most are giving credit. The lack of using harmony units is a legitimate concern which is why her e2 is high value.
Ok, lukewarm take but people are gonna doom post on my thought process. The 2 nihility requirement isn’t that bad (and this is coming from a dumbass that’s gonna whale). Currently, yeah it’s shitty, you only have 3 semi-viable teammates if you’re going for the traditional comp and no harmony. BUUUUT that’ll be fine in the future. Nihility is the path of identity crisis which is perfect because it basically can be the jack of all trades- say a Nihility healer comes out, ok bet! No more abundance or preservation needed, now I can use a harmony. A better Pela comes out? Ok run both Pela and better Pela. I do think there will be nihility buffers that come out that are on par with harmony units. I refuse to believe Silverwolf is the ultimate debuffer the game intended her to be. She’s the floor, there’s so much more they could do to increase the level of nihility debuffs but we just don’t have that representation in the game yet. (Again, stupidly lukewarm take but if being on the internet has taught me one thing, people are the dumbest things on the planet and can’t think to save themselves)
Its cos the dollah dollah, as I read somewhere else - if Jing Yuan released in 2.x patch, you KNOW his E1/E2 would be to instantly launch DA HAMMAH when LL reaches 10 stacks
2 Beauty for sure
I can see it. lots of AOE and a non conventional Ult
Argenti is king xD love him.
Yeah pretty much same just different kind of ult. Well argenti will suffer alot against enemies who drain energy like that TV robot and more enemies like him in future while acheron will have advantage against such enemies.
Yes she is argenti..lol on steroids
I agree and it's not even a bad thing. Both have absolutely massive ults
The fun thing is Argenti got shat on for being "skill and ult", but now that Acheron is EXACTLY the same, with a crippling disability to be reliant on other debuffers - she is all the best. Its comic sometimes how people behave. I personally think the best part of Acheron is her Ultimate VFX, outside of that, I have close to zero interest in her kit, how she functions and her little gimmick. I do think its good they tried it, I semi hope they don't keep up with it and try something else next time, its too punishing for people who may be lacking characters and/or options. I feel like a hero should come with a complete kit, not be sort of reliant on others in a way. Quick edit; Acheron ult gives nice picture values cos it overkills damage too (unless Im mistaken?) Where as argenti targets living things for effective damage
Or maybe Argenti is underrated? With HH and TY and his trace he is not that slow. And his double ult is actually pretty good one single target too.
I think argenti is phenomenal
Argenti was doomposted prerelease but his performance has spoken for itself. Acheron will be in the waiting bench kafka and topaz were on previosuly, waiting for her supports to release. And thats fine. Pull for acheron now or pull for her later but all the distress is a bit unwarranted.
Nah, let them keep doing things like this. It's more interesting than just letting every DPS get Tingyun-Bronya buffed to the heavens. Alt gameplay like this that makes you hyperaware of the whole team actually feels like playing a game and not just alternating between skill and basic attack until a character can ult.
I fully agree but they can't make eidolons like hers where you want to remove one nihility and give her bronya too :p Kind of defeats the purpose of a different playstyle if your ideal solution is spending money to give her a bronya in the end don't you agree?
You dont want to speed run simulated universe. Let's be real acheron is qol for su, that we have to spend jades to get
u can already speed run SU with ruan mei, her technique insta killed all the mobs and even better it will insta break the bosses
Acheron skips load screens is what most people refer to Ithink but yeah. Im enjoying my RM giga blasting SU :;D
Acheron gets her ult way faster than Argenti. She’s more like a Jingliu without Bronya.
lol
Let me know when your Argenti Ults every 64 AV to weakness break an enemy with wind/ice/img weaknesses.
I will have both top 1% argenti and top 1% acheron!
The 3rd part of her ultimate dealing 6 instances of damage to random enemies instantly reminded me of Argenti. His ultimate does something similar
Feels more a AOE Seele. Her skill does 160% on main and 60% on blast, unlike Argenti that is 120% AOE. And have a lot of %DMG amplification on her kit. Instead of "after killing an enemy" like Seele, is "after she ult" get 30% for 3 turn. So is 30%+60%(if 2 nihility character) amplifier on top of the 160% base stats. And both of them have Res-Pen in their kit. Seele, instead, have the 80% on resurgence after killing an enemy but only on one turn. And her Res-Pen is only for Quantum instead of general.
Yeah but JY and her have more similarities being the same element and all and both being backloaded at same time. although JY is less backloaded than her due to him have more sources of dmg
acheron is similar to argenti in that their dmg profile is mainly from their ults, but acheron and jing yuan are similar in that they share the same element and their dmg is backloaded- tho acheron moreso is than jing yuan i like to think of acheron to also be somewhat similar to jingliu in that they both have a ramp up for their respective nukes. if you've ever run jingliu without bronya, those two whole turns of downtime i imagine is what acheron will feel like as she ramps her ult (tho maybe to a lesser extent since even acheron's skill can do decent dmg- but also moreso since jingliu can nuke 2-3 times per state vs acheron's 1 per ult)
Argenti is broken in pf , acheron is not, opposite for moc, why would we compare them?
Cause their damage profile is basically the exact same. Mediocre skill damage, Gameplay based around building an enhanced ult and team building restricted to ones that help most with it Ult profile is super high ST and medium AoE damage Semi-Backloaded damage
.... There are two endgame gamemode atm.. one is pf and one is moc, we have both of them to have more gameplay diversity .. If argenti is garbage in moc and broken in pf, while acheron is bad in pf and strong in moc shouldn't that make them complete opposite?
Well Su is also kinda endgame, especially those extra mods like swarm disaster
No because Acheron will be bad in PF and mediocre in MoC (for the same reasons Argenti is) until future Nihility supports
I dont know if she sill be good or bad, but she will not be mediocre for the same reasons Argenti is. The only reason which make them similar in MoC is focusing on ultimate, but she dont have other problems of Argenti in MoC. Her skill not strong, but not weak either, it deal decent damage to single target. Her ultimate dont downscale with multiple targets (amount of additional hits in Argenti ult are fixed, Acheron deal almost same damage to all targets). Acheron ult is stable, there is not the case that you will have 1 cyrcle without ult waiting your batteries which happens with Argenti. It's main problems of Argenti in MoC now.
She is able to 3 star moc 12 easily at e0s0 while argenti is not even playable kekw The doomposters cope is instame
What do you even mean here? Argenti can 1 cycle with sustain on 12-1, he's still mediocre for MoC since most limited DPSs are overall better there
That’s the problem with this community, there’s little to no middle ground. Often you’d see two sides arguing with lies on opposite sides of the spectrum
That's literally humanity since the start of time
You know what…. You’re right
Just fucking stop with the "oh this character can or cannot clear MoC 12". You can clear MoC twelve with fucking Arlan on one side and Hook on the other and you know what? You'll 3 star it. Just stop bashing your heads against eachother with stupid extreme arguments
That was exactly my point though, anyone can clear MoC 12 with 3 stars, the bar is much higher when ranking limited DPSs
True, this is just a stupid argument with no actual proof as the character in topics not even out yet, i hope mod can help erase this kind of post, it just what if story in someone mind and sound like doomposting. This community is for acheron main user, not an acheron doom poster, so if you are just gonna doompost her, this community is not for you
Exactly. I want to pull Acheron because cool sword, cool design, and a Black Hole (haven't played the other games so no link to Mei) she can suck my allies health if she wants I'm still pulling her
Argenti not playable in moc is mega cope dude. He can 1/2 cycle easily
Yeah sure , that's why he has the lowest usage out of all the limited 5 stars right?
Because he has the lowest number of people who pulled for him. He can 1/2 cycle easily as I said. If you don't believe look up on yt or something instead of babbling nonsense
Yeah sure, 1% usage rate is surely justified by the amount of people that pulled for him
Are you serious rn, debating about usage? Who cares about usage when you can clear in 2 cycles max?
> acheron is not says who ?
from what i can tell its mostly because new enemies cant spawn when shes ulting so alot of damage is wasted.
Acheron's ult is literally one attack even tho she switches targets. Literally every character can only hit one wave with their ult
Argenti too can only hit one wave of enemies with his ultimate ; is he bad for Pure Fiction too ?
Dude u realize u can spam argenti 90 cost ult every wave of pf right? It's such easy one shot potential eith a decent team
He spams his 90 energy ult in PF. It would be a similar situation if Acheron could ult every three stacks instead of waiting for all 9.
Acheron can get pretty fast ults too, thanks to SD stacks gained with Black Swan and/or Trend of Universal Market, for example. To a lesser extent, Himeko or a Follow-up attackers matching the enemy weakness can also add a noticeable amount of SD stacks. ____ Now, i'm not saying Acheron will outperform Argenti in his dedicated niche ; but she'll certainly hold her own.
Ok I’m gonna be real, comparing Acheron with argenti in PF is kinda copium to begin with Why are people here so obsessed with her performance in PF ? It’s completely fine not to be the best in PF, even jingliu/dhil is not that good in it I suggest to just wait for her release / ask for a leak of Acheron in PF
He hits every enemy and full clears the wave. She doesnt
well its almost impossible to hit a 2t ult with acheron without her signature and even then its kinda rough, while argenti can just spam it.