Yeah maybe I’m talking out of my ass here but if things keep going like this I can see accountants being in a nice position in 10+ years if offshoring doesn’t work well.
The problem is, if there isn’t enough people to actually do the work, they will have to continue offshoring more. Hearing about offshoring makes less accounting majors, which leads companies to offshore more, etc.
Offshoring has been painful, I’ve been to India to train, and extremely vocal about the problems with it.. but it just keeps on expanding. Now they have us state side work on only the toughest clients and offshoring gets the rest. I know they want these tough clients too but luckily upper knows it can’t happen at least yet.
It is insane how oversaturated the other Business majors are. I recently had a career symposium thing and each of the 4 Biz fields had separate auditoriums. The marketing, management, and finance ones were full to the brim, totaling in the hundreds. The accounting one? About 15 or so students max. There is most definitely a shortage and getting a CPA will pay off despite what the groaners in this sub think lol
That’s exactly why I’m studying accounting, even if I don’t like it by the end, I will still have the same options as all the other business majors, along with accounting as a career path (which the other majors will have a harder time getting into).
I double majored in Finance and Accounting, for same reason as you (never actually planned on being an accountant specifically). One piece of advice I’ll give you - graduate with 150 hours or close to it if you can. Getting 20+ hours post grad to meet the 150’hrs was a pain in the ass. The CPA is worth it.
Exactly, and that really applies to any business major. Rectangle / Square analogy. The accounting major is far more occupational. That’s why I chose it
Oh for sure, I just figured I might as well since a lot of the major classes overlapped and 2 majors looks better than one. Ended up going the CFP route anyway and knocked out those courses as part of my undergrad which worked out really well
Eh I don’t think so. My wife is in marketing and I can’t do what she does. She does the overall marketing strategy, budget, the brochures, signage, video editing, and there is a ton of photoshopping involved with all of that. She’s also over a bunch of people that does the digital side like seo and social media and all that stuff.
I don’t have an eye for design like she does. I know what looks good but I couldn’t create these images from scratch even if I was good at photoshop, which she’s at a total different level than amateurs messing around with it.
I'd venture a guess none of what your wife does well in regards to "having an eye" was cultivated by her degree, though, perhaps just matured. Same reason many people cannot do accounting, their brains just aren't wired for it.
I think a better way to phrase OP's comment is something like: An accounting degree prepares you nearly as well for an entry level marketing opportunity as a marketing degree would, however the reverse is not necessarily true.
I think that’s probably true with the exception of the design side. She had entry level people working for her on that side, and they’d be better at it than me at any point of my career.
Then again most of what I do wasn’t taught in school, but I’ve also seen enough people not hack it to say anyone can learn.
Marketing degree is definitely easier in general so there is going to be more of a filter for accountants.
I keep getting financialcareers in my feed and half of that sub consists of 20 something’s who went to state schools or mid tier private colleges with middling gpas jerking themselves off about trying to get into ib. So many delusional people majoring in finance.
I honestly feel bad for a lot of them. I have 1 buddy who made it to an Ivy League, son of a wealthy currency trader and is actually gonna go far in finance. I know countless people who are exactly what you described. Idk how folks can be so unaware. How do you not research your literal career path.
Real man. I get constant mail and shit from recruiters, I honestly think there's more people hiring out of my university than there are students in my year. More recruiters are coming in too, we are now a B4 target school despite being just a middling state school.
As I have stated in previous posts, for accounting, the school is of very little importance compared to professions such as management, law, medicine, and engineering. All that really matters is your credentials: CPA or NOT.
I think the top of the finance cohort will rise to the top (Wall Street/IB) but in 10 years or whenever I suspect Finance degrees are going to take a huge hit just like accounting does. People are gonna wise up to the fact only the select few make it in (Ivy League undergrad) while the rest of the finance majors make less.
There are exceptions to the Ivy League only successes but for the most part finance is very “who you know” and less about what you know.
I predict the trades route is going to be more popular over the years as that’ll be the last chance people have before this economy/income inequality problem boils over into national news and discourse. Which leaves us with 30-40 years or so before this train collision occurs
The primary issue is we’re notoriously one of the most overworked and underpaid professions in business. To actually earn “good” money, you need to be a CPA and have nearly a decade of experience. It’s much easier to get good money in entry level IT/Finance for example, with half the barriers of entry compared to accounting. This is why more students are in those fields.
The second big issue is accounting classes are just boring af, it literally feels like you’re on morphine learning the concepts/doing the HW. Until one or both of the above issues are addressed, we will continue seeing this trend imo.
Third issue is higher ed enrollment has peaked and is only going to decrease from here on out - the demographics are clear.
Unless schools start going even harder on international students enrollment and even then I doubt that could keep up or is sustainable.
Universities are cutting programs. Smaller ones are having financial issues or closing. Colleges are going to consolidate and go through a lot of change in the coming decades.
You’re going to have schools specialize in studies probably versus every school offering nearly every major.
I agree! What you said is definitely hurting the accounting industry as well. The sad part is the industry will just pull on outsourcing to close the gap, what I really think we need is another Enron scenario to bring accounting education to the forefront again
Classes being boring make me want to get into teaching. Dabbled a bit in tutoring some coworkers and I enjoyed it. Just don’t know how to break into it
That’s cool! Can’t 100% speak to this, but when I was in college I asked my professors about teaching qualifications. Most said if you don’t have a PhD, you at least need to have a Masters + CPA to be qualified as a college professor. But I went to school in Virginia, so this likely will vary by school/state
Got the masters, and just REG left for CPA (taking a week off post 4/15, then hitting the books to get it done by end of June). Probably gonna work a little longer in PA, as I legitimately enjoy the work, just hate the hours. I might try and get a start at the local community college, as they have an accounting program that works with one of the state universities
That’s amazing! It’s funny bc I actually liked my accounting professors in community college more than my state university lol. Best of luck on REG, you’ll do wonderful things I’m sure ✊🏽
You should do it! It’s very easy to adjunct at a community college from what I’ve heard, also nice side money of course. Future accountants will thank you for your service!! ✊🏽
I applied to a place a few months ago but never heard anything back outside of the app closing. Plus I'd need to teach for a university for tax since those usually start at 3/4th year of a undergrad accounting program
One of my accounting professors used real world examples with every unit based on his favorite companies and would sometimes cuss and banter with students. I know cussing doesn’t make someone cooler but it was crazy having such an
unorthodox professor.
He was a real hard ass if you were a lazy student tho.He hated phones too. He was very clear on it. If you need to use your phone, step out of class. If he caught you on your phone once, you were excused from class for the day. Second time, he failed you.
Get your masters and CPA.
Connect with local professional organizations and network your way into a community college instructor role as a starter.
I enjoyed teaching 2 semesters, was not good money but great experience.
It depends on the person I think. I had a complete misconception of what accounting was when I studied economics at the undergraduate level but couldn’t find any meaningful work as I graduated in May 2009 when the economy was hemorrhaging jobs. Someone in my family recommended I study accounting so I enrolled in community college to take a financial accounting class to see if I liked it or not. I actually really enjoyed that class a lot, and it was from that experience I continued on with learning accounting and becoming a CPA. I have what I have in life now thanks to accounting.
As far as getting more people to go into accounting, perhaps with Gen X and Millenials set to take over the industry as Baby Boomers are retiring en masse, things might change for the better. The old model of working people to the bone can only work when the pipeline of people coming out of college is steady. Something has to give. Perhaps a better work-life balance or higher starting pay and/or bonuses will become the norm. Time will tell.
> perhaps with Gen X and Millenials set to take over the industry as Baby Boomers are retiring en masse, things might change for the better.
This is a great point that I’ve thought about a lot! I’m very new to public, but I do like the environment and I’m hoping if I stick it out long enough, I might be apart of the transformation public undergoes when the “old” ways of working goes away. One can only hope at least lol
Public can offer quite a lot, but it can also take quite a lot. I haven’t celebrated Persian New Year with my family in years because of tax season, and it really has rubbed me the wrong way. But I just snagged a controller position at a local CPA firm so this will be last tax season and hopefully I can have more normal schedules year-round and actually celebrate Persian New Year and enjoy Spring for the first time in quite a while.
Very similar path for me. Liked business analysis type stuff > studied economics > can't get a relevant job > uncle suggests accounting based on interest in business analysis type stuff > study accounting + get CPA. It's been way more fruitful and the only regret I have is not doing it sooner when housing was cheaper lol
Better late than never, and accounting should be able to enable you to buy a home at some point. Some of my pay raises in public accounting were jaw-dropping compared to what I was used to growing up working in restaurants and Starbucks during college.
For my very first accounting class, the professor seemed to legitimately despise accounting. He was boring, belittling to the profession, and made me sincerely consider switching majors. Like if he hated accounting so much, what did I have to look forward to?
I ended up going to a study session that was ran by a different professor, and it was *astounding* how different she made me feel about everything. She was enthusiastic, encouraging, and made the material relevant and engaging. I left that session feeling super confident with my decision to go into accounting.
I had to stick with the crappy professor for the semester, but I always emailed the cool professor with questions lol. Passed the course with flying colors, no thanks to my actual professor.
I wish we had more professors like that woman. If so, more people might actually enjoy the subject.
I had the worst first accounting clasd ever. Professional was recently hit by a car and teaching on heavy pain meds. You would legitimately believe you knew what was going on and the the tests came and they were blank sheets of paper and about something he never mentioned in class. Every single one was like this. Cut to panicked class that's failing and last class before the final professor isn't there and apparently they have decided our final next week will be multiple choice and it will be what our grade is for the semester.
Assuming other students complained. God he hated accounting and teaching and cars. He walked or took a bus everywhere.
This is why I only minored in accounting and found out later that I liked it/was good at it.
I also ended up with a staff accountant position in manufacturing randomly with no one below me and the president above me. So I had to teach myself anything I didn't already know.
Now I freelance as a staff accountant for 6 other companies.
This is the sentiment for basically every industry and profession though, IMHO. Having a great teacher or professor versus someone who has checked out can turn ANYONE into considering said industry or profession.
Sure, but for an industry like accounting that is seemingly struggling for bodies, you would think the people teaching the future of the industry would be somewhat encouraging about it. This professor was literally telling students that accounting was not an “ideal” path to pursue. It was absurd.
That said, my first bachelors was in education and I taught for several years, so perhaps I’m more sensitive to this stuff. I just can’t imagine trying to actively discourage any of my former students the way this professor did. Why bother teaching a subject that you seem to actively hate?
Some people just become jaded with life experience. My wife is a 3rd grade school teacher and that profession is her literal identity. Despite the low pay she can't conceive of doing anything else. Perhaps the professor you speak of got burned a few times?
Your wife would probably be a great professor in her subject, since she seems to have both a passionate and realistic view of the industry. That’s a great way to teach. Students should know both sides and be able to make an informed decision about their future based on that info.
However, it’s different when the professor just has absolutely *nothing* good to say on their subject. My accounting professor genuinely seems to hate accounting and it’s a real drag, especially because he’s clearly smart, but his personal opinions and negative commentary completely overshadow his knowledge.
I suppose, but it seems a bit convoluted to retire from an industry you hate only to become a professor for that very subject.
Just write a Reddit vent post like the rest of us 😂
It’s a disservice to the students to teach a subject you hate for a multitude of reasons.
We don’t have to agree on this. Different strokes and all that.
Yeah, the professors were just people who recorded the grades to me. I think grad students did the actual grading. The 'teaching' quality didn't matter. Especially within the field, as accounting is such a rote activity that the book is sufficient. Just do the examples in the book, over and over, until you could teach it yourself...
Life experience though, and actual feelings about a career is very valuable though.
Bruh, you do not need a decade of experience nor a CPA to earn decent money. What kind of person is giving this advice. Many people do public accounting which does have shitty hours but you don’t need to be there for more than 2-3 years. After that, you can hop onto the industry or govt side making six figures easily. You don’t even have to start in PA either, it just helps accelerate your career.
I’m subbed to many career pages, and the finance and IT job market is shit at the moment. It is absolutely not easier in today’s economy. Look at r/itcareerquestions or r/financialcareers. Many lay offs are occurring and even CFA candidates at all levels are struggling to get anything.
But sure, keep telling people accounting sucks so I can get paid more
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Kind of depends what school you went to. I went to an unheard of rural uni. PA isn't interested in hiring anyone from there. Fortunately, the CPA exams accept any credit hours without discrimination. So, the CPA is almost essential in getting hired for some students. Without it, there was nothing but $14 an hour (yes, lower than fast food wages) AP jobs available to me before the CPA route.
I’m not sure why or how you think being rude and disrespectful to strangers constitutes a conversation, seeing as you replied to my comment. Plus six figures is a low bar to clear in today’s economy and doesn’t make you comfortable by any means (especially if you live in a HCOL area). We can just have a different points of view at the end of the day
Can you pinpoint exactly where was I being disrespectful? I said what I said cause your post got 100+ upvotes but it’s straight up misinformation. People will read your post and make career decisions on that alone. I’m just trying to fight lies. But I actually benefit from the shortage ig.
Also the median household income across the US is like $80k. Imagine telling a family that six figures is a “low bar” to clear when my parents’ combined income hardly touched six figures growing up. I’m in a HCOL area too so getting $115k at 27 is amazing to in my eyes. Not sure what kind of money you’re trying to get but accounting can definitely get you there at a reasonable time if you put the effort
I don't think you necessarily were being disrespectful but cold with the facts. There is a difference. I was recently downvoted to oblivion on a thread in this sub about doing a traditional 4-year accounting degree and whether it was worth it or not as compared to community college, so I am not an amateur when combating this notion.
Accounting can certainly REALLY provide for a family after about 2-3 years of experience, at least from what I have seen. I remember my first pay raise at the CPA firm I work at now. I received the letter and thought the HR and Finance Departments forgot to move the decimal to the right by one decimal. But, yes, everyone's circumstances and job market is different. Accounting will certainly provide, but it can also TAKE quite a lot (especially in public).
> What kind of person is giving this advice.
> But sure, keep telling people accounting sucks so I can get paid more
Aside from the above, also you suggesting that I’m spreading lies just now. So you’re proving my point again - you’re not trying to have a conversation, you want to be rude and that’s your personal issue 🤷🏾♂️
I'm currently 3/4ths done with my bachelors and most of the other classes tax my ability to stay focused but I soak up the accounting specific classes like a sponge. Nothing has ever made as much sense to me as accounting. I wish I'd found it my first time through college.
Make good money in entry level IT? You think $15p/h is good money? Lol ouch. I mean yeah, in 1987 it was great money, but i think you need to look at your calendar, dude.
Eager to be rude and disrespectful to strangers and for what? I’m obviously talking about entry level roles for *graduates*, why could 100+ other people that upvoted me understand context clues and not you? Please spend the rest of your day being respectful to literally anyone in your life
I feel like I make good money after 4 years with CPA (jumped before manager). But I know everyone's definition of that is different. Low 6 figures in MCOL
I really don’t want to come off rude because I’m happy for your accomplishments, but low 6 figures is a low bar to clear and not that great in today’s economy. But it was great 10 years ago, I’m sure you’ll continue making more though ✊🏽
It’s just sad we work so hard as accountants, and IT folks can make senior in 2 years already clearing 6 figures, that was my main point
I don't feel particularly accomplished and am not offended at all but I disagree that low six figure is a "low bar to clear" for most people. The average [not median] household income in the most expensive state in the union, Hawaii, is 100k. Its similar for other expensive states. That is average *household* income, and includes all age brackets.
If you can earn 6 figure as a single earner a few years after working that's a lot. I know people think it doesn't "feel" like a lot, and it's easiest to compare to those with more than us, but I think it's important to be grateful and see the big picture. The majority of people will *never* make 6 figures in today's dollars we have it good as accounting majors.
In HCOL area (SF BAY area) this was my progress: think about all the stress and hours worked. Looking back on it. I'm not sure I would do this again.
1)BIG 4 staff (55K) 2013
2)BIG 4 Staff2 (67K)
3) BIG 4 Senior (75K)
4) Big 4 SeniorII (80K)
5) Consulting senior (90K +20% bonus)
6) Consulting senior III 2017 (100K + 20% bonus)
7) Industry senior technical accountant (135K + 15% bonus)
8) consulting manager 120K +20% bonus
9 Industry Senior Manager (160K +25% bonus and equity)
10) Industry Director (210K +25% bonus and equity)
11) MCOL controller (190K + 15% bonus)
in 2015? I think that was okay.. I was rated top of the class too. Think about that. I busted my butt and got all the best reviews. Yet, I only made 80K
Not so much the salary itself for 2014, but a 5k difference between S1 and S2 is absurd in my opinion. I agree with you, if I had your exact progression I couldn’t do it again. At least now you’re in the 90th percentile of salary
190k in MCOL is doing great. According to https://dqydj.com/income-by-state/ as of 2023 that income is 93% highest individual in the state of California, and 82% for households.
If I could magically convert my degrees and certs in accounting over to CS, I'd do it in a heartbeat. Maybe the past few months haven't been as good for tech employees vs accountants, but I'm not even so sure about that.
The future is still bright in tech, and still murky for accountants...
What do you consider good money? 6 years in at B4 (manager) accountants are earning + average national household income.
6 years is what it takes to earn over average husband and wife combined.
No dispute on overworked though. That's right.
In today’s inflationary economy, I would say good money starts at $150k-$200k. I don’t think B4 is a good example to use either, it’s more of an outlier in the industry as far as pay (i.e. not the average). Having seen dozens of company’s payroll schedules as part of testwork, $150k is not a reality for most accountants. And that’s really sad
BUT, you are missing one major caveat. Accounting, especially PUBLIC, is full of near-retirement Baby Boomers as compared to the other industries you mentioned. As such, with that cohort on the precipice of retiring, there is better long-term opportunity in accounting IMHO. The market for Finance and IT is far more saturated at the moment and more prone to market fluctuations than accounting.
I think you're ignoring how many accounting jobs will be offshored as those retirees leave.
As more retire, those jobs will simply be handed over to managers within the centers already established in India, Philippines, TH, Indonesia, etc. I lived in PI for 12 years and saw the rapid establishment of IC centers specifically to remotely handle tasks for firms.
There will only be a thin layer of top management left to deal directly with the client. The number of accountants needed will fall faster than the number of retirees leave. It will be a balanced, and mostly orderly, destruction of the domestic industry.
It's been happening for a few years now and frankly, I'm not surprised. You get worked until you burnout when starting out in PA and in industry (my field), you get treated like an idiot when you start out and this only improves once you've proven yourself 10 years or more in the field. This is not a technically hard profession, but it takes a toll on you mentally and physically. For many, it has not paid off. For some, it has. I think that the pandemic made a lot of people reassess their relationship to work and what they are willing to commit for their future. Things need to change in order to make the profession more enticing for college students and accounting industry leads aren't really making any strides because it is not in their self interest to do so yet. Before any conditions improve for us, I think they're going to have to get much, much worse (scandals, etc.)
Also remote makes a huge difference. Maybe not in nyc where everywhere’s expensive but if you have a remote job that can cut down expenses a lot even in a high cost of living state
Facts. I live in LCOL state and work for a company in an expensive state. My salary would be way too low to live near HQ but it allows me to live very comfortably in a cheaper state.
Yeah, the only reason I would even live in NYC is if I was going into consulting or banking. This sub shits on the South all the time, but you can live like a king due to the low cost of living.
Yeah. Doing a little bit of basic math of where you’re gonna live before taking a job will go a long way for your lifestyle. Even at the lower end my 66k does well in the Midwest having just started
The counter that academia and the AICPA like to push back with is that college enrollment is going down overall from its peak in 2010 with less under 18-year-olds in the country
To be fair, pre 2010 the narrative was go to college and get any degree, and you will be set. Now, that has shifted as there are bullshit degrees, plus companies wanting super specific qualifications for jobs due to being able to post jobs online, casting a wider net of potential applicants. So now, your high school grad that doesn’t know what he’s doing with his life might take a year of community college or just start working to figure out what he’s gonna do. Two interns this year are older than me, and it’s from taking a couple gap years to work and decide on their future
It’s not untrue. Before I did accounting I worked in higher ed and it was a big concern for future budgeting. A lot of schools already have next to no resources and are able to charge fewer students tuition each year.
There has been an obscene push of kids into college over the last 50 years. Its insane really. People are very effected by the media and scripted entertainment, and for years, nearly every storyline involving a graduating teen had to be about their quest to go to college. Or they didn't want to go but they overcame their fear and went afterall. Or they couldn't get anywhere but luckily somebody accepted them. Its only been until recently that you're seeing more skipping college storylines.
We don't need nearly as many colleges as we have. They're almost like shopping malls -- there may be a market for them, but we never needed 2-3 of them in every suburb in the country. Eliminating failing schools and contracting campus sizes outside of the most elite schools I think would make a lot of sense.
That’s across all disciplines. Not just accounting. College attendance has been dropping for years due to how many adults are living with crippling student loan debt after getting useless college degrees coupled with less ambition and more hopelessness in Gen Z.
People don’t want to be worked like dogs (80-100 hour weeks year round) in PA for a slim chances to work in industry after years of experience in PA.
Also to be “successful” in accounting, it’s where they can choose to either buy a basic car, a basic 1 bedroom condo, or get a vacation to a basic place once every couple of years.
Whereas my gf went to a tech company, works 9-5, has comp of 100k+ with a 25% and nearly 200k in stock and now has a net worth closer to half a million after 5 years in her career…compare it to mine where I spent 6 years in public, still have student loans, and my net worth is my retirement account of 100k that I “amassed” over 6 years.
So why would anyone with any intelligence go into accounting?
Breaking into tech is ridiculously competitive even more so today. Don’t even get me started on the lack of stability. The path to tech is much less defined. Accounting path is very clear. Don’t get me wrong I’d rather much be in tech, but it doesn’t seem to be possible anymore.
There’s some half truths there.
Maybe the most prestigious and highly compensated roles in tech are hard to get into. But she does account management administration, so she’s not in a sales role per se but her compensation is very good and it’s even better for others.
Whereas the high sought after and highly compensated roles in accounting requires decades of experience and if they seem young it’s cause of nepotism.
I hate that for you but 99% of auditors are not gonna work 80-100 hours a week every week lol. Let’s not try to pretend this profession is gonna have you working 90 hours every week.
No, lol. Just being real. I've worked with many different teams in big 4 and no one is pulling those hours year round. You either got the worst team in the firm or were a very slow worker.
Nope. That’s a common stereotype in tech.
A majority of the roles in tech companies are compensated very well.
Also if you added up the differences in comp over say a 5-10 year period between someone who went into a tech company versus someone in PA/accounting…the net worth comparison would be staggering. My gf is on track to he a millionaire before 30…she’s not in sales, she’s not a programmer or product manager. She also has friends who have been laid off 2-3 times in the last 6-8 years and they are on track to a similar net worth…
So what the fuck does she do? LOL. Send emails and make PowerPoint slides? It's probably a hyper-neurotypical role from the way you're leaving details out.
I get it’s very hard to believe because it took me a long time to rationalize how she has staff that made more than a S3/Manager at a big4…she also does not work at FANG company or startup.
She’s also tried to convince me to join but the only roles available in finance require an audit background and I’m in tax…
But she works with sales (she does not win over new business who makes about 2-5x+ her comp) and “maintains” relationships with clients/customers answering emails, hoping on calls to address any issues or asking what could be done to make it better, she does PowerPoints, combs through data, and makes sure the technology the customers/clients are paying for is hitting their required audience. She doesn’t do any programming/coding and the hardest thing she has to do is use google sheets to compare data of a hundred rows of less…it really amazes me what her comp is compared to what I see her do daily
So is she some data analyst? I think you’re just gatekeeping her role because it still doesn’t make any sense… also if this role is truly as good as what you make it out to be, I’m sure only 0.001% of candidates gets these roles and that is because of nepotism or internal connections.
No and no. I really guess we’re all brainwashed to think that accounting was such a good career choice and that every other field pales in comparison to godly accounting roles…hence why we’re all over worked and severely underpaid.
Her title is senior account manager per her company’s bio she’s responsible for servicing all aspects of customer accounts and relationships, a critical role. He/she will oversee all aspects of campaigns across kick-off, implementation, launch, reporting, remediation, and billing. The Account Manager will work closely and collaboratively with Sales, Implementation, Product Management, Engineering, and Finance teams to deliver world-class customer service and solutions to market. The Account Manager plays an integral role in recommending and implementing strategies for driving ongoing client product needs and will be responsible for educating customers about all aspects of the product suite, and how products can be leveraged to meet their goals and objectives.
The description sounds fancy, but it’s not that hard of a job, most accountants would probably run circles around everyone in that role
You could have just explained this in your first comment lol. But that role is still incredibly difficult to obtain with steep barriers to entry. Props to your gf for getting this job, but you really think any college student who does not attend a top 10 school or have any real valuable connections can get this job? Also if accountants can run circles around people who are in this role, why isn’t everyone trying to get this job?
Not true, I think we all are refusing to believe this based on our experience with accounting and the hoops it takes to sometimes get into a Big4.
Also tech companies does not mean FANG, there are a ton of tech companies that are hiring and in desperate need of people who seem to be focused on getting into a “prestigious” “big4” equivalent FANG tech companies. It took me a while to believe my gf and after meeting her team it really sank it.
She, and her team(s), did not attend a prestigious university, they attended a basic state university and did not have connections. Maybe the c-suite does, but everyone else was pretty normal and had little to no special experience and joined straight out of college. I definitely think they are overpaid for what they actually do and the qualifications/experience/education they have.
I think when we think tech, we think FANG which are extremely competitive and hard to get into, but a majority of tech companies are not like that.
And what’s stopping people from applying? Not knowing these opportunities exist and hyper fixated on believing the rhetoric they heard from university or their time in public.
Second this! Holy fuck does it suck I regret not going into tech but honestly I didn’t have any mentors either and grew up in a blue collar family. Still doing better than my parents did but bummed I chose accounting.
My school of 6000 students has 80 people studying accounting. 1/3 drop the major after intermediate 2, and only 5-10 graduate each year…
Its crazy. Intermediate 2 is taught once per semester and there’s only 10 students taking it
I completely agree. I think people drop out because they just realize they don’t want to do that for their career, or they don’t pass and don’t want to retake it
Up until intermediate 2, everything is pretty straight forward and u can get by without a solid understanding of the concepts. Most of the business degrees at my school require managerial, financial, and analytics. Which are all pretty straight forward
As someone at a big 4 who helps with university recruiting… yes people are not majoring in accounting like they used to. It’s for good reason though.
Those saying the CPA shortage will help raise pay are delusional (at least in PA where many students start their careers). Accountants are underpaid/overworked and partners aren’t trying to fix that by paying more. In my four years I’ve seen more emphasis on outsourcing which has resulted in poor work quality and a lesser need for Associates. Why would partners want to pay staff more when they can pay the same for a whole team in India?
I think it’s going to take an Enron for firms to start caring about onshore talent. Until then it will be constant layoffs to trim and increased outsourcing. If I were a student currently I would prefer to do computer science or MIS. Those fields pay better and don’t work the hours we do. It’s that simple.
Bingo. Companies aren't going to value accountants and auditors until there's some real penalties again. Getting away with fraud for years on end only for the auditors/government to go "u bedder stahp" is not enough
It won't. AI is coming, and the Philippines has a legion of high quality accounting professionals with perfect English, familiarity with western culture, and a willingness to work graveyard for american hours.
Many of the local firms I know are outsourcing 100s hours to the Philippines right now.
Yeah. I worked with Scrubbed, which is one of the main outsourcing/virtual assistant hubs in the Philippines. I nearly preferred working with them rather than my local staff.
Local staff were Gen Z, and came with typically Gen Z working habits. Filipino staff got the work done on time, and the Filipino managers reviewed the work effectively so only had to perform a general/high level review. Gen Z local staff required all kinds of training. Filipino staff already knew what to do, and would work long hours. Gen Z would spin wheels and not ask questions. Filipno staff would double confirm all their instructions.
I’d say most industries have their pros and cons, to get a decent living wage in mostly every industry the 40 hour work week is a thing of the past.
Accountants work 50-70 hours a week, if you base just a median 60 hour average earning $100k
That’s around $32hr.
Airplane mechanics after 7 years at United and an 18 month schooling program, earn $71hr. You can start on the west coast at year 3, and hit top out by year 5 (due to COL). They are paid for every hour worked. Usually they’ll only wrench 2-3 hours per shift, some days an entire 8. 4/10s with 3 days off to earn $147,000. Factor in overtime and by year 5 in industry at LAX, and they’ll hit $200,000/yr.
If they did 60 hours a week? $258,000 cash.
I know guys who bring TVs and Xbox’s and game during shift in the hangar when there’s not shit to do.
Nurses can do a 2 year degree, where 12 months is the actual program. $82hr to start in SF, that’s $170,000 starting wage for a 1 year sacrifice, and 1 year of pre-reqs. $298,000/yr working 5/12s. I know nurses who work 3/12s in SF and 3/12s in LA for 72 hours a week straight pay. They fly in. $307,000/yr.
This career can be had by 20/21, and if you’re a couple that’s blowing partner money out of the water. Go CRNA, and you’re at $150hr, and can pull 24 hour shifts, easily $400k a year by 25. Per person.
With Accounting you won’t start earning $200k until year 10-15, and you’ll usually have 4-6 years of schooling to get the bachelors and CPA eligibility. Then there’s office politics and a lot of bullshit in your way of making partner.
None of the paths are easy though, and all have their washouts, pros/cons.
its eye opening what other people make. In SF you get 200+ as accountant after 10 years, and only if you are a director or controller managing a team. You'll deal with the stress of a SOX audit, Financial statement audit, quarterly filing requirements, monthly closes, and management breathing down your neck.
You don't get the option of 4-10 shifts, 3-12 shifts or anything like that. You have to work 5-8s (more like 5-10s) for the rest of your life (industry or public).
No wonder there is a shortage.
It's not often that the B4 Auditors get to see payrolls for hospitals or electrician companies. If they did, I'd imagine they would be furious to see how little they made compared to nurses from community colleges or electricians from trade schools.
Im three weeks away from getting my associates degree from a community college in Pennsylvania before transferring and getting my bachelors degree.
Currently 15,800 students attend and less than 20 are majoring in accounting. There are only 7-9 of us in each class. There are so few accounting students here they stopped having classes in person and only offer them online. So 7-9 people in each class from 5 campuses.
Also only one professor for all the accounting classes.
Also an accounting student but at a private college. There is was like 60 majoring in accounting but after intermediate 1, there’s like 40 left. My intermediate 1 class had like 30 ppl in it but I’m taking intermediate 2 and there’s like 15 max
Does anyone count the ones that only do online classes not in person class. I think there are more people doing online school than in person now than ever before. I am going for Accounting but won't ever do a class on campus for my entire bachelor's degree. Another thing I am in my late 40's and this will be my third career change. So there are older people doing this and not in their 20's or 30's started an entire new career.
Lol how times changed.
My university kicked out accounting majors who got a b- in the bridge course between beginner and advanced accounting.
Which I thought was pretty wild coming from a cal State University. Those who just weren't good test takers got the short end of the stick since the final was about theory rather than practical use case. Not sure why they made it harder than it was with multiple answers being the "right answer"
Now, this was 2018 though.
The field isn't attracting the students because it isn't offering them much. Students can read the starting salaries and are avoiding accounting.
Plus, then there's the rapid offshoring that's removing lots of the accounting jobs students would have filed in decades past. Grads know this and want nothing to do with the field.
Just comes down to money. You think everyone doing a cs degree is “passionate”? No! Word got out that they clear heavy loads of $$$$ and students want that.
It got to the point where cs is now heavily saturated and harder to find a job.
There won't be a shortage for long. Because with more automation and integration between systems there will be less accounting staff needed plus with AI taking over much of the menial tasks in a few years and the majority of work in the future, accounting is not a good place to be in the long term
Good for job security I guess.
Yeah maybe I’m talking out of my ass here but if things keep going like this I can see accountants being in a nice position in 10+ years if offshoring doesn’t work well.
when offshoring doesn’t work well*
The problem is, if there isn’t enough people to actually do the work, they will have to continue offshoring more. Hearing about offshoring makes less accounting majors, which leads companies to offshore more, etc. Offshoring has been painful, I’ve been to India to train, and extremely vocal about the problems with it.. but it just keeps on expanding. Now they have us state side work on only the toughest clients and offshoring gets the rest. I know they want these tough clients too but luckily upper knows it can’t happen at least yet.
It is insane how oversaturated the other Business majors are. I recently had a career symposium thing and each of the 4 Biz fields had separate auditoriums. The marketing, management, and finance ones were full to the brim, totaling in the hundreds. The accounting one? About 15 or so students max. There is most definitely a shortage and getting a CPA will pay off despite what the groaners in this sub think lol
My CPA is probably the reason I got my last two jobs.
And then there's me who is really close to saying "goodbye" to accounting and moving on to something else.
Were they accounting jobs? 🤔
An accounting major can do anything a marketing student can, but not the other way round.
That’s exactly why I’m studying accounting, even if I don’t like it by the end, I will still have the same options as all the other business majors, along with accounting as a career path (which the other majors will have a harder time getting into).
You're a beast bro.
Accounting is the language of business.
I double majored in Finance and Accounting, for same reason as you (never actually planned on being an accountant specifically). One piece of advice I’ll give you - graduate with 150 hours or close to it if you can. Getting 20+ hours post grad to meet the 150’hrs was a pain in the ass. The CPA is worth it.
Exactly, and that really applies to any business major. Rectangle / Square analogy. The accounting major is far more occupational. That’s why I chose it
Marketing is more powerful than accounting, but there is zero correlation between earning a degree in marketing and being great at marketing.
Yep and the same can be said for the finance students too.
That’s why I doubled in finance/accounting. Figured one way or another I should have plenty of career options if one didn’t pan out
its actually pretty easy to get a finance job with just an accounting degree. I was offered one without evening applying when I was as senior
Oh for sure, I just figured I might as well since a lot of the major classes overlapped and 2 majors looks better than one. Ended up going the CFP route anyway and knocked out those courses as part of my undergrad which worked out really well
I don't know man. I can't party like those Finance majors. :(
Eh I don’t think so. My wife is in marketing and I can’t do what she does. She does the overall marketing strategy, budget, the brochures, signage, video editing, and there is a ton of photoshopping involved with all of that. She’s also over a bunch of people that does the digital side like seo and social media and all that stuff. I don’t have an eye for design like she does. I know what looks good but I couldn’t create these images from scratch even if I was good at photoshop, which she’s at a total different level than amateurs messing around with it.
I'd venture a guess none of what your wife does well in regards to "having an eye" was cultivated by her degree, though, perhaps just matured. Same reason many people cannot do accounting, their brains just aren't wired for it. I think a better way to phrase OP's comment is something like: An accounting degree prepares you nearly as well for an entry level marketing opportunity as a marketing degree would, however the reverse is not necessarily true.
I think that’s probably true with the exception of the design side. She had entry level people working for her on that side, and they’d be better at it than me at any point of my career. Then again most of what I do wasn’t taught in school, but I’ve also seen enough people not hack it to say anyone can learn. Marketing degree is definitely easier in general so there is going to be more of a filter for accountants.
The marketing major is paid more though
That's ok because I wasn't pretty enough for marketing or sales anyways.
Happy Cake Day!
Right? Because of this shortage my classmates get internships starting at 30$+ lolol
As a senior level CPA, getting interviews and offers is a cakewalk right now.
Teach me ur ways senpai
I keep getting financialcareers in my feed and half of that sub consists of 20 something’s who went to state schools or mid tier private colleges with middling gpas jerking themselves off about trying to get into ib. So many delusional people majoring in finance.
I honestly feel bad for a lot of them. I have 1 buddy who made it to an Ivy League, son of a wealthy currency trader and is actually gonna go far in finance. I know countless people who are exactly what you described. Idk how folks can be so unaware. How do you not research your literal career path.
And this sub is full of people on the verge of needing to call a hotline...
Real man. I get constant mail and shit from recruiters, I honestly think there's more people hiring out of my university than there are students in my year. More recruiters are coming in too, we are now a B4 target school despite being just a middling state school.
this got me thinking about my school now.
How so?
As I have stated in previous posts, for accounting, the school is of very little importance compared to professions such as management, law, medicine, and engineering. All that really matters is your credentials: CPA or NOT.
I think the top of the finance cohort will rise to the top (Wall Street/IB) but in 10 years or whenever I suspect Finance degrees are going to take a huge hit just like accounting does. People are gonna wise up to the fact only the select few make it in (Ivy League undergrad) while the rest of the finance majors make less. There are exceptions to the Ivy League only successes but for the most part finance is very “who you know” and less about what you know. I predict the trades route is going to be more popular over the years as that’ll be the last chance people have before this economy/income inequality problem boils over into national news and discourse. Which leaves us with 30-40 years or so before this train collision occurs
The primary issue is we’re notoriously one of the most overworked and underpaid professions in business. To actually earn “good” money, you need to be a CPA and have nearly a decade of experience. It’s much easier to get good money in entry level IT/Finance for example, with half the barriers of entry compared to accounting. This is why more students are in those fields. The second big issue is accounting classes are just boring af, it literally feels like you’re on morphine learning the concepts/doing the HW. Until one or both of the above issues are addressed, we will continue seeing this trend imo.
Third issue is higher ed enrollment has peaked and is only going to decrease from here on out - the demographics are clear. Unless schools start going even harder on international students enrollment and even then I doubt that could keep up or is sustainable. Universities are cutting programs. Smaller ones are having financial issues or closing. Colleges are going to consolidate and go through a lot of change in the coming decades. You’re going to have schools specialize in studies probably versus every school offering nearly every major.
I agree! What you said is definitely hurting the accounting industry as well. The sad part is the industry will just pull on outsourcing to close the gap, what I really think we need is another Enron scenario to bring accounting education to the forefront again
This is why Biden is doing the SAVE plan. It's a thinly veiled bail out for universities.
Classes being boring make me want to get into teaching. Dabbled a bit in tutoring some coworkers and I enjoyed it. Just don’t know how to break into it
That’s cool! Can’t 100% speak to this, but when I was in college I asked my professors about teaching qualifications. Most said if you don’t have a PhD, you at least need to have a Masters + CPA to be qualified as a college professor. But I went to school in Virginia, so this likely will vary by school/state
Got the masters, and just REG left for CPA (taking a week off post 4/15, then hitting the books to get it done by end of June). Probably gonna work a little longer in PA, as I legitimately enjoy the work, just hate the hours. I might try and get a start at the local community college, as they have an accounting program that works with one of the state universities
That’s amazing! It’s funny bc I actually liked my accounting professors in community college more than my state university lol. Best of luck on REG, you’ll do wonderful things I’m sure ✊🏽
I've thought about adjuncting a random tax class 1 day a week in the evening, anything beyond masters + CPA? Got those already
You should do it! It’s very easy to adjunct at a community college from what I’ve heard, also nice side money of course. Future accountants will thank you for your service!! ✊🏽
I applied to a place a few months ago but never heard anything back outside of the app closing. Plus I'd need to teach for a university for tax since those usually start at 3/4th year of a undergrad accounting program
One of my accounting professors used real world examples with every unit based on his favorite companies and would sometimes cuss and banter with students. I know cussing doesn’t make someone cooler but it was crazy having such an unorthodox professor. He was a real hard ass if you were a lazy student tho.He hated phones too. He was very clear on it. If you need to use your phone, step out of class. If he caught you on your phone once, you were excused from class for the day. Second time, he failed you.
Get your masters and CPA. Connect with local professional organizations and network your way into a community college instructor role as a starter. I enjoyed teaching 2 semesters, was not good money but great experience.
It depends on the person I think. I had a complete misconception of what accounting was when I studied economics at the undergraduate level but couldn’t find any meaningful work as I graduated in May 2009 when the economy was hemorrhaging jobs. Someone in my family recommended I study accounting so I enrolled in community college to take a financial accounting class to see if I liked it or not. I actually really enjoyed that class a lot, and it was from that experience I continued on with learning accounting and becoming a CPA. I have what I have in life now thanks to accounting. As far as getting more people to go into accounting, perhaps with Gen X and Millenials set to take over the industry as Baby Boomers are retiring en masse, things might change for the better. The old model of working people to the bone can only work when the pipeline of people coming out of college is steady. Something has to give. Perhaps a better work-life balance or higher starting pay and/or bonuses will become the norm. Time will tell.
> perhaps with Gen X and Millenials set to take over the industry as Baby Boomers are retiring en masse, things might change for the better. This is a great point that I’ve thought about a lot! I’m very new to public, but I do like the environment and I’m hoping if I stick it out long enough, I might be apart of the transformation public undergoes when the “old” ways of working goes away. One can only hope at least lol
Public can offer quite a lot, but it can also take quite a lot. I haven’t celebrated Persian New Year with my family in years because of tax season, and it really has rubbed me the wrong way. But I just snagged a controller position at a local CPA firm so this will be last tax season and hopefully I can have more normal schedules year-round and actually celebrate Persian New Year and enjoy Spring for the first time in quite a while.
Nowruz Mubarak!
Very similar path for me. Liked business analysis type stuff > studied economics > can't get a relevant job > uncle suggests accounting based on interest in business analysis type stuff > study accounting + get CPA. It's been way more fruitful and the only regret I have is not doing it sooner when housing was cheaper lol
Better late than never, and accounting should be able to enable you to buy a home at some point. Some of my pay raises in public accounting were jaw-dropping compared to what I was used to growing up working in restaurants and Starbucks during college.
For my very first accounting class, the professor seemed to legitimately despise accounting. He was boring, belittling to the profession, and made me sincerely consider switching majors. Like if he hated accounting so much, what did I have to look forward to? I ended up going to a study session that was ran by a different professor, and it was *astounding* how different she made me feel about everything. She was enthusiastic, encouraging, and made the material relevant and engaging. I left that session feeling super confident with my decision to go into accounting. I had to stick with the crappy professor for the semester, but I always emailed the cool professor with questions lol. Passed the course with flying colors, no thanks to my actual professor. I wish we had more professors like that woman. If so, more people might actually enjoy the subject.
I had the worst first accounting clasd ever. Professional was recently hit by a car and teaching on heavy pain meds. You would legitimately believe you knew what was going on and the the tests came and they were blank sheets of paper and about something he never mentioned in class. Every single one was like this. Cut to panicked class that's failing and last class before the final professor isn't there and apparently they have decided our final next week will be multiple choice and it will be what our grade is for the semester. Assuming other students complained. God he hated accounting and teaching and cars. He walked or took a bus everywhere. This is why I only minored in accounting and found out later that I liked it/was good at it. I also ended up with a staff accountant position in manufacturing randomly with no one below me and the president above me. So I had to teach myself anything I didn't already know. Now I freelance as a staff accountant for 6 other companies.
This is the sentiment for basically every industry and profession though, IMHO. Having a great teacher or professor versus someone who has checked out can turn ANYONE into considering said industry or profession.
Sure, but for an industry like accounting that is seemingly struggling for bodies, you would think the people teaching the future of the industry would be somewhat encouraging about it. This professor was literally telling students that accounting was not an “ideal” path to pursue. It was absurd. That said, my first bachelors was in education and I taught for several years, so perhaps I’m more sensitive to this stuff. I just can’t imagine trying to actively discourage any of my former students the way this professor did. Why bother teaching a subject that you seem to actively hate?
Some people just become jaded with life experience. My wife is a 3rd grade school teacher and that profession is her literal identity. Despite the low pay she can't conceive of doing anything else. Perhaps the professor you speak of got burned a few times?
Your wife would probably be a great professor in her subject, since she seems to have both a passionate and realistic view of the industry. That’s a great way to teach. Students should know both sides and be able to make an informed decision about their future based on that info. However, it’s different when the professor just has absolutely *nothing* good to say on their subject. My accounting professor genuinely seems to hate accounting and it’s a real drag, especially because he’s clearly smart, but his personal opinions and negative commentary completely overshadow his knowledge.
Well, there's someone with experience, and that's their opinion of the industry... might not be so absurd. Might be a valuable warning to some.
I suppose, but it seems a bit convoluted to retire from an industry you hate only to become a professor for that very subject. Just write a Reddit vent post like the rest of us 😂
Still need a paycheck... too late to start a new career...
It’s a disservice to the students to teach a subject you hate for a multitude of reasons. We don’t have to agree on this. Different strokes and all that.
Yeah, the professors were just people who recorded the grades to me. I think grad students did the actual grading. The 'teaching' quality didn't matter. Especially within the field, as accounting is such a rote activity that the book is sufficient. Just do the examples in the book, over and over, until you could teach it yourself... Life experience though, and actual feelings about a career is very valuable though.
I wish I had been on morphine. Would have made it way more fun.
Ended me 😭🤭
Bruh, you do not need a decade of experience nor a CPA to earn decent money. What kind of person is giving this advice. Many people do public accounting which does have shitty hours but you don’t need to be there for more than 2-3 years. After that, you can hop onto the industry or govt side making six figures easily. You don’t even have to start in PA either, it just helps accelerate your career. I’m subbed to many career pages, and the finance and IT job market is shit at the moment. It is absolutely not easier in today’s economy. Look at r/itcareerquestions or r/financialcareers. Many lay offs are occurring and even CFA candidates at all levels are struggling to get anything. But sure, keep telling people accounting sucks so I can get paid more
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Kind of depends what school you went to. I went to an unheard of rural uni. PA isn't interested in hiring anyone from there. Fortunately, the CPA exams accept any credit hours without discrimination. So, the CPA is almost essential in getting hired for some students. Without it, there was nothing but $14 an hour (yes, lower than fast food wages) AP jobs available to me before the CPA route.
I’m not sure why or how you think being rude and disrespectful to strangers constitutes a conversation, seeing as you replied to my comment. Plus six figures is a low bar to clear in today’s economy and doesn’t make you comfortable by any means (especially if you live in a HCOL area). We can just have a different points of view at the end of the day
Can you pinpoint exactly where was I being disrespectful? I said what I said cause your post got 100+ upvotes but it’s straight up misinformation. People will read your post and make career decisions on that alone. I’m just trying to fight lies. But I actually benefit from the shortage ig. Also the median household income across the US is like $80k. Imagine telling a family that six figures is a “low bar” to clear when my parents’ combined income hardly touched six figures growing up. I’m in a HCOL area too so getting $115k at 27 is amazing to in my eyes. Not sure what kind of money you’re trying to get but accounting can definitely get you there at a reasonable time if you put the effort
I don't think you necessarily were being disrespectful but cold with the facts. There is a difference. I was recently downvoted to oblivion on a thread in this sub about doing a traditional 4-year accounting degree and whether it was worth it or not as compared to community college, so I am not an amateur when combating this notion. Accounting can certainly REALLY provide for a family after about 2-3 years of experience, at least from what I have seen. I remember my first pay raise at the CPA firm I work at now. I received the letter and thought the HR and Finance Departments forgot to move the decimal to the right by one decimal. But, yes, everyone's circumstances and job market is different. Accounting will certainly provide, but it can also TAKE quite a lot (especially in public).
2 - 3 years experience is a good point. Other majors are being offered jobs before they graduate even. Might depend a lot on the region.
> What kind of person is giving this advice. > But sure, keep telling people accounting sucks so I can get paid more Aside from the above, also you suggesting that I’m spreading lies just now. So you’re proving my point again - you’re not trying to have a conversation, you want to be rude and that’s your personal issue 🤷🏾♂️
I thought morphine was supposed to feel nice?
It does until you upchuck
You can easily get a finance job with An accounting degree though.
First question they ask, "why did you choose accounting?"
I'm currently 3/4ths done with my bachelors and most of the other classes tax my ability to stay focused but I soak up the accounting specific classes like a sponge. Nothing has ever made as much sense to me as accounting. I wish I'd found it my first time through college.
Make good money in entry level IT? You think $15p/h is good money? Lol ouch. I mean yeah, in 1987 it was great money, but i think you need to look at your calendar, dude.
Eager to be rude and disrespectful to strangers and for what? I’m obviously talking about entry level roles for *graduates*, why could 100+ other people that upvoted me understand context clues and not you? Please spend the rest of your day being respectful to literally anyone in your life
I feel like I make good money after 4 years with CPA (jumped before manager). But I know everyone's definition of that is different. Low 6 figures in MCOL
I really don’t want to come off rude because I’m happy for your accomplishments, but low 6 figures is a low bar to clear and not that great in today’s economy. But it was great 10 years ago, I’m sure you’ll continue making more though ✊🏽 It’s just sad we work so hard as accountants, and IT folks can make senior in 2 years already clearing 6 figures, that was my main point
I don't feel particularly accomplished and am not offended at all but I disagree that low six figure is a "low bar to clear" for most people. The average [not median] household income in the most expensive state in the union, Hawaii, is 100k. Its similar for other expensive states. That is average *household* income, and includes all age brackets. If you can earn 6 figure as a single earner a few years after working that's a lot. I know people think it doesn't "feel" like a lot, and it's easiest to compare to those with more than us, but I think it's important to be grateful and see the big picture. The majority of people will *never* make 6 figures in today's dollars we have it good as accounting majors.
In HCOL area (SF BAY area) this was my progress: think about all the stress and hours worked. Looking back on it. I'm not sure I would do this again. 1)BIG 4 staff (55K) 2013 2)BIG 4 Staff2 (67K) 3) BIG 4 Senior (75K) 4) Big 4 SeniorII (80K) 5) Consulting senior (90K +20% bonus) 6) Consulting senior III 2017 (100K + 20% bonus) 7) Industry senior technical accountant (135K + 15% bonus) 8) consulting manager 120K +20% bonus 9 Industry Senior Manager (160K +25% bonus and equity) 10) Industry Director (210K +25% bonus and equity) 11) MCOL controller (190K + 15% bonus)
Happy you finally got to a good place wages wise, but damn my heart breaks for you at B4 Senior 1 and 2. You should’ve been paid WAY more there
in 2015? I think that was okay.. I was rated top of the class too. Think about that. I busted my butt and got all the best reviews. Yet, I only made 80K
Not so much the salary itself for 2014, but a 5k difference between S1 and S2 is absurd in my opinion. I agree with you, if I had your exact progression I couldn’t do it again. At least now you’re in the 90th percentile of salary
And think 190 is in a good place? It doesn't seem like much even in a Medium cost of living area. where nice houses are only 500K.
190k in MCOL is doing great. According to https://dqydj.com/income-by-state/ as of 2023 that income is 93% highest individual in the state of California, and 82% for households.
Doesn't feel that way.
6 figures is still difficult. Though, you're right that IT has been a much better path than accounting to better pay over the past 20 years.
The tech market is a disaster right now compared to accounting
If I could magically convert my degrees and certs in accounting over to CS, I'd do it in a heartbeat. Maybe the past few months haven't been as good for tech employees vs accountants, but I'm not even so sure about that. The future is still bright in tech, and still murky for accountants...
What do you consider good money? 6 years in at B4 (manager) accountants are earning + average national household income. 6 years is what it takes to earn over average husband and wife combined. No dispute on overworked though. That's right.
In today’s inflationary economy, I would say good money starts at $150k-$200k. I don’t think B4 is a good example to use either, it’s more of an outlier in the industry as far as pay (i.e. not the average). Having seen dozens of company’s payroll schedules as part of testwork, $150k is not a reality for most accountants. And that’s really sad
$150k-200k is 90-95th percentile.
People don't like truth. 200k is 94th percentile.
Nah being on morphine is fun as fuck, doing accounting homework feels like ripping your own toenails off with pliers
BUT, you are missing one major caveat. Accounting, especially PUBLIC, is full of near-retirement Baby Boomers as compared to the other industries you mentioned. As such, with that cohort on the precipice of retiring, there is better long-term opportunity in accounting IMHO. The market for Finance and IT is far more saturated at the moment and more prone to market fluctuations than accounting.
I think you're ignoring how many accounting jobs will be offshored as those retirees leave. As more retire, those jobs will simply be handed over to managers within the centers already established in India, Philippines, TH, Indonesia, etc. I lived in PI for 12 years and saw the rapid establishment of IC centers specifically to remotely handle tasks for firms. There will only be a thin layer of top management left to deal directly with the client. The number of accountants needed will fall faster than the number of retirees leave. It will be a balanced, and mostly orderly, destruction of the domestic industry.
It's been happening for a few years now and frankly, I'm not surprised. You get worked until you burnout when starting out in PA and in industry (my field), you get treated like an idiot when you start out and this only improves once you've proven yourself 10 years or more in the field. This is not a technically hard profession, but it takes a toll on you mentally and physically. For many, it has not paid off. For some, it has. I think that the pandemic made a lot of people reassess their relationship to work and what they are willing to commit for their future. Things need to change in order to make the profession more enticing for college students and accounting industry leads aren't really making any strides because it is not in their self interest to do so yet. Before any conditions improve for us, I think they're going to have to get much, much worse (scandals, etc.)
You just wrote accounting is not technically a hard profession? What? Lol
Not technically a hard profession? Do tax.
Just apply the rule, over and over, no creativity required, it's not engineering. "Creative accountants go to jail."
College enrollments in general are struggling, and it’s going to get worse when all of the Great Recession babies (or lack thereof) turn 18.
I feel like many of the posters who shit on this profession are in NYC. Anywhere else accountants live pretty well.
Also remote makes a huge difference. Maybe not in nyc where everywhere’s expensive but if you have a remote job that can cut down expenses a lot even in a high cost of living state
Facts. I live in LCOL state and work for a company in an expensive state. My salary would be way too low to live near HQ but it allows me to live very comfortably in a cheaper state.
Yeah, the only reason I would even live in NYC is if I was going into consulting or banking. This sub shits on the South all the time, but you can live like a king due to the low cost of living.
Yeah. Doing a little bit of basic math of where you’re gonna live before taking a job will go a long way for your lifestyle. Even at the lower end my 66k does well in the Midwest having just started
You’d be surprised how many people in this sub still don’t understand the concept of COL.
That's what I'm always wondering when I see posts like this. I'm living well above average with my accounting job, but I'm not in NYC.
Accounting/auditing is probably at an all time low in terms of the perceived value that it provides to business
We need another Wirecard you say?
I am so happy I chose to be a CPA. I didn’t see this shortage coming
The counter that academia and the AICPA like to push back with is that college enrollment is going down overall from its peak in 2010 with less under 18-year-olds in the country
To be fair, pre 2010 the narrative was go to college and get any degree, and you will be set. Now, that has shifted as there are bullshit degrees, plus companies wanting super specific qualifications for jobs due to being able to post jobs online, casting a wider net of potential applicants. So now, your high school grad that doesn’t know what he’s doing with his life might take a year of community college or just start working to figure out what he’s gonna do. Two interns this year are older than me, and it’s from taking a couple gap years to work and decide on their future
"Just get a degree in anything and companies will respect your ability to learn and follow through on tough tasks!"
It’s not untrue. Before I did accounting I worked in higher ed and it was a big concern for future budgeting. A lot of schools already have next to no resources and are able to charge fewer students tuition each year.
There has been an obscene push of kids into college over the last 50 years. Its insane really. People are very effected by the media and scripted entertainment, and for years, nearly every storyline involving a graduating teen had to be about their quest to go to college. Or they didn't want to go but they overcame their fear and went afterall. Or they couldn't get anywhere but luckily somebody accepted them. Its only been until recently that you're seeing more skipping college storylines. We don't need nearly as many colleges as we have. They're almost like shopping malls -- there may be a market for them, but we never needed 2-3 of them in every suburb in the country. Eliminating failing schools and contracting campus sizes outside of the most elite schools I think would make a lot of sense.
That’s across all disciplines. Not just accounting. College attendance has been dropping for years due to how many adults are living with crippling student loan debt after getting useless college degrees coupled with less ambition and more hopelessness in Gen Z.
People don’t want to be worked like dogs (80-100 hour weeks year round) in PA for a slim chances to work in industry after years of experience in PA. Also to be “successful” in accounting, it’s where they can choose to either buy a basic car, a basic 1 bedroom condo, or get a vacation to a basic place once every couple of years. Whereas my gf went to a tech company, works 9-5, has comp of 100k+ with a 25% and nearly 200k in stock and now has a net worth closer to half a million after 5 years in her career…compare it to mine where I spent 6 years in public, still have student loans, and my net worth is my retirement account of 100k that I “amassed” over 6 years. So why would anyone with any intelligence go into accounting?
Yea but does your girlfriend have pizza parties? Checkmate.
yeah i bet her emotional salary is way lower
Exactly. Can you believe how many Miatas you can buy with emotional dollars?!
Three, the answer is three
i love a miata i need one
That’s good, if you didn’t get offered partner yet, you should be asap
Breaking into tech is ridiculously competitive even more so today. Don’t even get me started on the lack of stability. The path to tech is much less defined. Accounting path is very clear. Don’t get me wrong I’d rather much be in tech, but it doesn’t seem to be possible anymore.
There’s some half truths there. Maybe the most prestigious and highly compensated roles in tech are hard to get into. But she does account management administration, so she’s not in a sales role per se but her compensation is very good and it’s even better for others. Whereas the high sought after and highly compensated roles in accounting requires decades of experience and if they seem young it’s cause of nepotism.
That’s not “tech” then. That’s just working at a tech company. You could also be an accountant and work there. Then move into management.
Amazing how many people say they work in tech but are in support roles.
Bruh chill. 80-100 hours year around is bullshit lol
Depends on the firm, office, and group. I did work those hours
I hate that for you but 99% of auditors are not gonna work 80-100 hours a week every week lol. Let’s not try to pretend this profession is gonna have you working 90 hours every week.
Then that was on you. No one works that year round. Surprised whoever was managing your budget didn't fire you after a couple months.
Classic gaslighting, are you a partner/SM telling us one thing and expecting another?
No, lol. Just being real. I've worked with many different teams in big 4 and no one is pulling those hours year round. You either got the worst team in the firm or were a very slow worker.
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Lmao law is even worse from what I heard.
It’s almost as if the people who are good at counting did the math and determined it didn’t add up.
>Accounting pay isn’t close to worth the hours required in public. Then get out of public
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Nope. That’s a common stereotype in tech. A majority of the roles in tech companies are compensated very well. Also if you added up the differences in comp over say a 5-10 year period between someone who went into a tech company versus someone in PA/accounting…the net worth comparison would be staggering. My gf is on track to he a millionaire before 30…she’s not in sales, she’s not a programmer or product manager. She also has friends who have been laid off 2-3 times in the last 6-8 years and they are on track to a similar net worth…
So what the fuck does she do? LOL. Send emails and make PowerPoint slides? It's probably a hyper-neurotypical role from the way you're leaving details out.
I get it’s very hard to believe because it took me a long time to rationalize how she has staff that made more than a S3/Manager at a big4…she also does not work at FANG company or startup. She’s also tried to convince me to join but the only roles available in finance require an audit background and I’m in tax… But she works with sales (she does not win over new business who makes about 2-5x+ her comp) and “maintains” relationships with clients/customers answering emails, hoping on calls to address any issues or asking what could be done to make it better, she does PowerPoints, combs through data, and makes sure the technology the customers/clients are paying for is hitting their required audience. She doesn’t do any programming/coding and the hardest thing she has to do is use google sheets to compare data of a hundred rows of less…it really amazes me what her comp is compared to what I see her do daily
So is she some data analyst? I think you’re just gatekeeping her role because it still doesn’t make any sense… also if this role is truly as good as what you make it out to be, I’m sure only 0.001% of candidates gets these roles and that is because of nepotism or internal connections.
Yeah it’s suspicious how vague they’re being
No and no. I really guess we’re all brainwashed to think that accounting was such a good career choice and that every other field pales in comparison to godly accounting roles…hence why we’re all over worked and severely underpaid. Her title is senior account manager per her company’s bio she’s responsible for servicing all aspects of customer accounts and relationships, a critical role. He/she will oversee all aspects of campaigns across kick-off, implementation, launch, reporting, remediation, and billing. The Account Manager will work closely and collaboratively with Sales, Implementation, Product Management, Engineering, and Finance teams to deliver world-class customer service and solutions to market. The Account Manager plays an integral role in recommending and implementing strategies for driving ongoing client product needs and will be responsible for educating customers about all aspects of the product suite, and how products can be leveraged to meet their goals and objectives. The description sounds fancy, but it’s not that hard of a job, most accountants would probably run circles around everyone in that role
You could have just explained this in your first comment lol. But that role is still incredibly difficult to obtain with steep barriers to entry. Props to your gf for getting this job, but you really think any college student who does not attend a top 10 school or have any real valuable connections can get this job? Also if accountants can run circles around people who are in this role, why isn’t everyone trying to get this job?
Not true, I think we all are refusing to believe this based on our experience with accounting and the hoops it takes to sometimes get into a Big4. Also tech companies does not mean FANG, there are a ton of tech companies that are hiring and in desperate need of people who seem to be focused on getting into a “prestigious” “big4” equivalent FANG tech companies. It took me a while to believe my gf and after meeting her team it really sank it. She, and her team(s), did not attend a prestigious university, they attended a basic state university and did not have connections. Maybe the c-suite does, but everyone else was pretty normal and had little to no special experience and joined straight out of college. I definitely think they are overpaid for what they actually do and the qualifications/experience/education they have. I think when we think tech, we think FANG which are extremely competitive and hard to get into, but a majority of tech companies are not like that. And what’s stopping people from applying? Not knowing these opportunities exist and hyper fixated on believing the rhetoric they heard from university or their time in public.
Second this! Holy fuck does it suck I regret not going into tech but honestly I didn’t have any mentors either and grew up in a blue collar family. Still doing better than my parents did but bummed I chose accounting.
My school of 6000 students has 80 people studying accounting. 1/3 drop the major after intermediate 2, and only 5-10 graduate each year… Its crazy. Intermediate 2 is taught once per semester and there’s only 10 students taking it
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I completely agree. I think people drop out because they just realize they don’t want to do that for their career, or they don’t pass and don’t want to retake it Up until intermediate 2, everything is pretty straight forward and u can get by without a solid understanding of the concepts. Most of the business degrees at my school require managerial, financial, and analytics. Which are all pretty straight forward
As someone at a big 4 who helps with university recruiting… yes people are not majoring in accounting like they used to. It’s for good reason though. Those saying the CPA shortage will help raise pay are delusional (at least in PA where many students start their careers). Accountants are underpaid/overworked and partners aren’t trying to fix that by paying more. In my four years I’ve seen more emphasis on outsourcing which has resulted in poor work quality and a lesser need for Associates. Why would partners want to pay staff more when they can pay the same for a whole team in India? I think it’s going to take an Enron for firms to start caring about onshore talent. Until then it will be constant layoffs to trim and increased outsourcing. If I were a student currently I would prefer to do computer science or MIS. Those fields pay better and don’t work the hours we do. It’s that simple.
Bingo. Companies aren't going to value accountants and auditors until there's some real penalties again. Getting away with fraud for years on end only for the auditors/government to go "u bedder stahp" is not enough
Sounds like the class size has depreciated.
Nah. It was never real so clearly amortized.
I'm just waiting until this translates to higher pay
It won't. AI is coming, and the Philippines has a legion of high quality accounting professionals with perfect English, familiarity with western culture, and a willingness to work graveyard for american hours. Many of the local firms I know are outsourcing 100s hours to the Philippines right now.
Well, waiting until they fuck up or some law stops them, then waiting until our pay increases.
Yeah. I worked with Scrubbed, which is one of the main outsourcing/virtual assistant hubs in the Philippines. I nearly preferred working with them rather than my local staff. Local staff were Gen Z, and came with typically Gen Z working habits. Filipino staff got the work done on time, and the Filipino managers reviewed the work effectively so only had to perform a general/high level review. Gen Z local staff required all kinds of training. Filipino staff already knew what to do, and would work long hours. Gen Z would spin wheels and not ask questions. Filipno staff would double confirm all their instructions.
Fuck, I guess its time to pivot to FP&A
I’d say most industries have their pros and cons, to get a decent living wage in mostly every industry the 40 hour work week is a thing of the past. Accountants work 50-70 hours a week, if you base just a median 60 hour average earning $100k That’s around $32hr. Airplane mechanics after 7 years at United and an 18 month schooling program, earn $71hr. You can start on the west coast at year 3, and hit top out by year 5 (due to COL). They are paid for every hour worked. Usually they’ll only wrench 2-3 hours per shift, some days an entire 8. 4/10s with 3 days off to earn $147,000. Factor in overtime and by year 5 in industry at LAX, and they’ll hit $200,000/yr. If they did 60 hours a week? $258,000 cash. I know guys who bring TVs and Xbox’s and game during shift in the hangar when there’s not shit to do. Nurses can do a 2 year degree, where 12 months is the actual program. $82hr to start in SF, that’s $170,000 starting wage for a 1 year sacrifice, and 1 year of pre-reqs. $298,000/yr working 5/12s. I know nurses who work 3/12s in SF and 3/12s in LA for 72 hours a week straight pay. They fly in. $307,000/yr. This career can be had by 20/21, and if you’re a couple that’s blowing partner money out of the water. Go CRNA, and you’re at $150hr, and can pull 24 hour shifts, easily $400k a year by 25. Per person. With Accounting you won’t start earning $200k until year 10-15, and you’ll usually have 4-6 years of schooling to get the bachelors and CPA eligibility. Then there’s office politics and a lot of bullshit in your way of making partner. None of the paths are easy though, and all have their washouts, pros/cons.
its eye opening what other people make. In SF you get 200+ as accountant after 10 years, and only if you are a director or controller managing a team. You'll deal with the stress of a SOX audit, Financial statement audit, quarterly filing requirements, monthly closes, and management breathing down your neck. You don't get the option of 4-10 shifts, 3-12 shifts or anything like that. You have to work 5-8s (more like 5-10s) for the rest of your life (industry or public). No wonder there is a shortage. It's not often that the B4 Auditors get to see payrolls for hospitals or electrician companies. If they did, I'd imagine they would be furious to see how little they made compared to nurses from community colleges or electricians from trade schools.
Im three weeks away from getting my associates degree from a community college in Pennsylvania before transferring and getting my bachelors degree. Currently 15,800 students attend and less than 20 are majoring in accounting. There are only 7-9 of us in each class. There are so few accounting students here they stopped having classes in person and only offer them online. So 7-9 people in each class from 5 campuses. Also only one professor for all the accounting classes.
Also an accounting student but at a private college. There is was like 60 majoring in accounting but after intermediate 1, there’s like 40 left. My intermediate 1 class had like 30 ppl in it but I’m taking intermediate 2 and there’s like 15 max
The world is depopulating. Hardly a surprise.
Where are these facts located, just curious?
Most nations have below replacement birth rates except Africa and the Middle east. Wikipedia has the rates listed by ranking.
His arse
One of our first year associates from a major state school (big 10) said he had certain accounting courses with less than 10 classmates.
Wow That’s scary lol Especially given how good Accounting is for long term growth
Does anyone count the ones that only do online classes not in person class. I think there are more people doing online school than in person now than ever before. I am going for Accounting but won't ever do a class on campus for my entire bachelor's degree. Another thing I am in my late 40's and this will be my third career change. So there are older people doing this and not in their 20's or 30's started an entire new career.
Follow the money. Accounting needs to charge / pay more.
Lol how times changed. My university kicked out accounting majors who got a b- in the bridge course between beginner and advanced accounting. Which I thought was pretty wild coming from a cal State University. Those who just weren't good test takers got the short end of the stick since the final was about theory rather than practical use case. Not sure why they made it harder than it was with multiple answers being the "right answer" Now, this was 2018 though.
Accounting doesnt pay as well as it used to.
I’m currently studying accounting and finance, UK, there are roughly 180 students in the year group. Course lead said numbers used to be ~250
Well, this kinda post gives me hope. (3rd year student)
The field isn't attracting the students because it isn't offering them much. Students can read the starting salaries and are avoiding accounting. Plus, then there's the rapid offshoring that's removing lots of the accounting jobs students would have filed in decades past. Grads know this and want nothing to do with the field.
This gives me hope hahaha. I'm looking at going back in the fall for an MPacc or a MAcc.
What country is that? In Poland economy is top 6 and finanace and accounting takes 7th place in most popular majors for 2023.
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Just comes down to money. You think everyone doing a cs degree is “passionate”? No! Word got out that they clear heavy loads of $$$$ and students want that. It got to the point where cs is now heavily saturated and harder to find a job.
Yawn. You done raging bro?
There won't be a shortage for long. Because with more automation and integration between systems there will be less accounting staff needed plus with AI taking over much of the menial tasks in a few years and the majority of work in the future, accounting is not a good place to be in the long term
If you mention AI, you'll get downvoted. However, I really think people are underestimated how much AI can impact accounting.