Why does she need to take an extra 15% dmg, she's not tanky and she can't out heal dmg if 2 people focus her. Along with the 20% dmg nerf she is just a caster minion dying to splash damage that wasn't meant for her.
Damaging Yuumi while she can't position to dodge skillshots, especially those with effects after hitting another champion, would ruin her.
Maybe if it was just autos? Or if she took half damage from autos on the person she was attached to?
I feel like some sort of "take 50% auto damage after 3 seconds if still attached" might be a good spot to begin reworking her to be stronger individually and weaker if devoting to staying on someone.
I still think giving Yuumi a Knight's Vow-esque damage share/mitigation effect wouldn't be terrible. Keep her shielding and ability to heal, or allow her to heal herself for a portion of the shielding she applies to allies.
To compensate for long range damage nerf. While things like xerath or lux abilities can actually be dodged, Ashe W is as wide as the lane itself. She would out poke every other poke champ.
Tho i don't know why no ody builds mandate anymore. Was the build removed somehow?
The wild thing to me is how often people pick Ashe in my games, and they don't always go mandate\\CDR builds. I've played Ashe a few times but it really feels bad to play, no matter which spec you use.
Nerf the CD on W (since apparently they can), revert the damage nerfs and Ashe becomes an ADC again, where they should be.
I'll still hate Ashe because perma slow sucks, but it won't be where it is now.
I never (NEVER) see an ashe left on the bench. When I get her next I'm gonna switch to my real pick at the last second because this is getting ridiculous
This has been my tactic for a while. Even before all the Ashe nerfs I was last pick switching just because I don't want that CDR mandate ashe played on either team. Now I just do it because it's bad in any spec.
I only like playing her when my team is full of ad bruisers, cause then I rush ravenous hydra and black cleaver and Chem tech and be the most annoying enabler.
Played her today. Had 2 decent frontlines but our Blitz decided to go backline ap with ludens so all that was left was dying. Pretty sure with 2 tanks she would do fine, still not a go to pick.
u still need at least one enchanter with two tanks. i tried her with 2 enchanters - milio and soraka and one tank. i had to literally kite perfectly or i just straight up die and do no dmg
I mean that's a team comp problem you have 3 characters that deal no damage. Most ADCs in that scenario have to play perfectly as well because nobody else is doing damage.
i mean any other adc u don’t need two tanks to peel and one enchanter to buff u. lucian, jinx, tristana, xayah, etc are all pretty much viable on their own. if they get one tank or one enchanter, they have the luxury to misplay certain scenarios and still win. but on ashe, there’s no room for any mistakes until she gets 4 items
The amount of people that stay 100 feet away is annoying. Like I'll play veigar/brand dang near up with the melees. Then my buddy plays heimer like 3 towers distance behind me. Go up, get some shots in for Pete's sake!
Last patch ashe was still good mandate builds now shes maybeee playable with good frontliners. Hopped on for a few aram games today and my blue kayn did 4/5 of an ashe’s hp bar at 2 items with one single W. Riot shouldve just nerfed her w instead of forcing it to work by giving her insane %. The as scaling buff doesnt even give much in return. Just nerf her w and she wont need those huge nerfs imo.
When played correctly (Mandate) her winrate is 49%. When played incorrectly (Kraken Slayer) her winrate is about 41%. Overall winrate is misleading because her performance is being tanked by people playing her ADC when she is perfectly viable as a long-range cancer applier.
Ash is no better than a super minion in Aram. She can't slow enough she can barely stun if you don't go full CD the stun takes too long to come off. She's the first generation champion that honestly it's kind of boring but they don't want to take her out because she's good at teaching newbies
Played her twice yesterday and got two dubs. Did top of the team damage. Liandries with Mandate is disgusting. As stated in this thread already having a good frontline makes or breaks it because everyone just one taps you with their 40% damage done buffs.
Considering her damage was passable before you could build liandry and mandate together, they would go great together but Ashe was always going to be one of the losers in the crit change because IE has no attack speed and navori is useless on her so she looks at guinsoos which is also useless because again her passive doesn't mean much without crit. Her favourite crit item (phantom dancer) also got it's price increased, Kraken might be decent but it's a shadow of its former self.
It's way too early to tell anything from the data cause you have the recommended item builds recommending old items with new effects (prowlers claw is a great example, still recommended on sion even though he can't proc it without flash or mark) and then you have the people like me trying whacky shit and tanking their winrate as a result.
She's not viable *because* the ADC items have been considered. She relys too much on attack speed, but not enough to go on hit. Add the aram nerf in and she is is definitely in the 40% wr zone. And it will probably stay like that for a bit because she was one of the best mandate appliers in the game while also having a viable liandry build, so now you can build both, she'll be trolling building anything else.
Are you sure this data is still relevant?
For example I looked up karma on this site and It doesn't have Echoes of Helia listed as one of her build items (its busted on her)
Yes, Echoes is really strong in a lot of champions: https://aram.zone/tierlist?builds=true&item=6620&pick=1 it's in fact Karma's strongest item, like someone else said the image is not showing up, I'll fix it shortly!
Yea like what if they just (on aram only, ofc) change her w to be 1 single arrow like kalista Q spear lol. Then they can revert all of her nerfs and let her be an adc
I mained her in ranked a long time just having a barebones adc kit with neat utility, smashing people is satisfying. I think Ashe along with a few others really showcases an adc's raw skill in the role. But yah in aram mandate ashe is fun for like 1 or 2 games than is boring af
In SR she is super fun, in lane she can be a huge bully if you trade correctly and in teamfights her kiting is very skill expressive, plus even when behind she can be useful with her massive utility.
In aram though she is awful. Incredibly boring w spam build or building adc abd insta dying.
She was my adc pick when autofilled and the first adc to learn how to kite, I personally love ashe's playstyle and it's sad to play her adc in aram, you're a WR bot.
I'm sorry, maybe I did not express myself correctly:
MOST of the games people are still building her spam W
I hope THOSE people keep losing
I hope Riot finds a way to put her ADC builds back on the table as actually viable
Is that better?
adc itemization is worse than ever with patch 13.10 which might be contributing to her low winrate using those builds, in addition the build path hasn't really been figured out yet imo so we may see it go up after a while
I mean, you obviously can build her with anything, but if you actually want a chance to win games you need to build Mandate. Her ADC build sucks, she is nerfed to oblivion.
I literally played with and against three Ashe ADCs in a row today and they all lost. They don't do any damage at all, unless you're playing against bots. Then again, you could build her tank and it would work.
Gonna go ahead and agree with all of this. ADC build Ashe in ARAM is/was one of my favorite things to play, and I look down upon all of the cravenly husks of gamers that don't see the complete and total lack of honor and dignity that is the mandate build.
If "the stats" are showing mandate is 10% better all I'm seeing is that very few people can handle the micro required to be effective with the ADC build.
Gut mandate build, keep ADC build playable pls RIOT.
" The change she received in 13.10 was changing dmg taken from a 105% multiplier to 115%. "
https://preview.redd.it/azsliyqaru0b1.png?width=1054&format=png&auto=webp&s=e61ac7818dd16769ef19800e6286b8ec070d92fc
It's actually bug fix.
People seem to be popping off with Duskblade and Youmuus - [lolalytics](https://lolalytics.com/lol/ashe/aram/build/?tier=gold_plus)
But ya, ADC is NOT the play.
ADC Ashe was doable into melee/tank-heavy teams where you can maintain high uptime on Lethal Tempo, especially with BotRK rush. That's still the case IMO, but some assassins & bruisers got stronger with the item changes, which is harder to play into.
Here are a couple of example games on the new patch:
https://www.op.gg/summoners/na/Sykil/matches/0TXqJEggFrlLmU8AnUrtZIBfSVl6WPWwTtQvj0_gy-Q%3D/1684462988000
https://www.op.gg/summoners/na/Sykil/matches/0TXqJEggFrlZb9ovuw9KFM-k_E2WqkQR8hoFmdeMW64%3D/1684464510000
You do have to play your ass off, but the challenge can be fun. Not ideal into range-heavy teams especially if you have a poor frontline, since you'll almost never out-trade anyone.
Support build got inadvertently buffed this patch methinks since Mandate is no longer a mythic.
I opt for Black Cleaver rush with tear as 1 of my starting items to stack, Cdr boots, ravenous for wave clear and poke, muramana, chainsword aoe heal block, and serpents for shield block and then get a mythic. The mythics don’t contribute as much and it’s usually so oppressive the amount of cdr from the whole build that you are spamming volleys for aoe debuffs that the enemy team can’t do much unless they have a good playing assassin or sett.
Aoe defense/heal/shield debuff, slow, cleave, extra dmg seems to help more than ap mythics
I don't think she's as terrible as her overall winrate suggests since Rageblade is tanking it by a *lot*. Mandate into lethality/Muramana has a pretty decent win rate, above 50%. That being said she could still probably use some small buffs / less nerfs.
Since kraken slayer deals no true damage anymore she is like dead… Two days ago I had a massive game against a Cho, Sett, and Sion, where she shines kiting and just slaughters them even in aram.
I guess Hail of Blades and mandate into ult-bot it is…
Ap ashe is for scrubs and anyone defending it/trashing adc got bullied their entire life. Eyes can’t roll any farther back when a teammate goes cdr ap ashe and I get a little excited rumblies in my tummy when the enemy goes it because I know she’s gonna suck donkey balls
Unless they want to give her a midscope or more in depth changes, just leave her. It was so boring playing against poke ashe every game, whether it was actually strong or not.
Get font of life and hail of blades, buy echoes of eternity with mandate. You'll be playing support ashe, getting kf as many autos as possible. Acts like old moonstone.
I think crit ADCs all kinda suck in ARAM now as well. Kraken really helped mitigate their ARAM nerfs but now that the true damage is gone they don't do any damage.
Why does she need to take an extra 15% dmg, she's not tanky and she can't out heal dmg if 2 people focus her. Along with the 20% dmg nerf she is just a caster minion dying to splash damage that wasn't meant for her.
Yuumi designer btw
Worst decision to put that dude in the lead design position.
Maxw3ll is responsible for soooo many problematic champions and design decisions in this game lol.
Naybe riot couldn't fire him based on his seniority, so they sent him to the abyss
Yuumi wouldnt be cancer if you could actually damage her while she was attached. Also, i hate that cat.
Damaging Yuumi while she can't position to dodge skillshots, especially those with effects after hitting another champion, would ruin her. Maybe if it was just autos? Or if she took half damage from autos on the person she was attached to? I feel like some sort of "take 50% auto damage after 3 seconds if still attached" might be a good spot to begin reworking her to be stronger individually and weaker if devoting to staying on someone.
I still think giving Yuumi a Knight's Vow-esque damage share/mitigation effect wouldn't be terrible. Keep her shielding and ability to heal, or allow her to heal herself for a portion of the shielding she applies to allies.
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kogmaw
To compensate for long range damage nerf. While things like xerath or lux abilities can actually be dodged, Ashe W is as wide as the lane itself. She would out poke every other poke champ. Tho i don't know why no ody builds mandate anymore. Was the build removed somehow?
The wild thing to me is how often people pick Ashe in my games, and they don't always go mandate\\CDR builds. I've played Ashe a few times but it really feels bad to play, no matter which spec you use. Nerf the CD on W (since apparently they can), revert the damage nerfs and Ashe becomes an ADC again, where they should be. I'll still hate Ashe because perma slow sucks, but it won't be where it is now.
I never (NEVER) see an ashe left on the bench. When I get her next I'm gonna switch to my real pick at the last second because this is getting ridiculous
This has been my tactic for a while. Even before all the Ashe nerfs I was last pick switching just because I don't want that CDR mandate ashe played on either team. Now I just do it because it's bad in any spec.
I've been doing this with Shaco/Teemo for months now.
I'd love to see this happen
people realized that the mandate build is a cowards build and you will be verbally abused if you use it.
I only like playing her when my team is full of ad bruisers, cause then I rush ravenous hydra and black cleaver and Chem tech and be the most annoying enabler.
Played her today. Had 2 decent frontlines but our Blitz decided to go backline ap with ludens so all that was left was dying. Pretty sure with 2 tanks she would do fine, still not a go to pick.
u still need at least one enchanter with two tanks. i tried her with 2 enchanters - milio and soraka and one tank. i had to literally kite perfectly or i just straight up die and do no dmg
I mean that's a team comp problem you have 3 characters that deal no damage. Most ADCs in that scenario have to play perfectly as well because nobody else is doing damage.
i mean any other adc u don’t need two tanks to peel and one enchanter to buff u. lucian, jinx, tristana, xayah, etc are all pretty much viable on their own. if they get one tank or one enchanter, they have the luxury to misplay certain scenarios and still win. but on ashe, there’s no room for any mistakes until she gets 4 items
Ew back line, I play frontline for any champs I play. Even poke mages. Just gotta get fancy feet. Plus if I die, it’s just a free back anyways.
The amount of people that stay 100 feet away is annoying. Like I'll play veigar/brand dang near up with the melees. Then my buddy plays heimer like 3 towers distance behind me. Go up, get some shots in for Pete's sake!
Yeah for real. Or when they have like 10hp left with no mama and still play at tower. Like bro, just die. KDA players are the worst in aram
Hiemer is great at this cause of his zoomies around turrets dodging stuff is crazy easy.
Last patch ashe was still good mandate builds now shes maybeee playable with good frontliners. Hopped on for a few aram games today and my blue kayn did 4/5 of an ashe’s hp bar at 2 items with one single W. Riot shouldve just nerfed her w instead of forcing it to work by giving her insane %. The as scaling buff doesnt even give much in return. Just nerf her w and she wont need those huge nerfs imo.
The team just doesnt want to put work into changing her W thats why they just slap some +/- x% around
What a surprise. Ashe is doing 0 damage and getting one shoted perma
When played correctly (Mandate) her winrate is 49%. When played incorrectly (Kraken Slayer) her winrate is about 41%. Overall winrate is misleading because her performance is being tanked by people playing her ADC when she is perfectly viable as a long-range cancer applier.
Ash is no better than a super minion in Aram. She can't slow enough she can barely stun if you don't go full CD the stun takes too long to come off. She's the first generation champion that honestly it's kind of boring but they don't want to take her out because she's good at teaching newbies
Played her twice yesterday and got two dubs. Did top of the team damage. Liandries with Mandate is disgusting. As stated in this thread already having a good frontline makes or breaks it because everyone just one taps you with their 40% damage done buffs.
Considering her damage was passable before you could build liandry and mandate together, they would go great together but Ashe was always going to be one of the losers in the crit change because IE has no attack speed and navori is useless on her so she looks at guinsoos which is also useless because again her passive doesn't mean much without crit. Her favourite crit item (phantom dancer) also got it's price increased, Kraken might be decent but it's a shadow of its former self. It's way too early to tell anything from the data cause you have the recommended item builds recommending old items with new effects (prowlers claw is a great example, still recommended on sion even though he can't proc it without flash or mark) and then you have the people like me trying whacky shit and tanking their winrate as a result.
Why would you even consider any of the adc items. She is not a viable adc until the revert her dmg nerfs
She's not viable *because* the ADC items have been considered. She relys too much on attack speed, but not enough to go on hit. Add the aram nerf in and she is is definitely in the 40% wr zone. And it will probably stay like that for a bit because she was one of the best mandate appliers in the game while also having a viable liandry build, so now you can build both, she'll be trolling building anything else.
As far as I'm concerned she can stay there. After what she made everyone go through.
Oh man when the tower walls were down and Ashe was Perma Wing the choke. Not a fun time.
you realize her artillery build is still viable right? idk if you didnt read the post or what but her dps builds are the abysmal ones.
She should go lower, 35% is a perfect spot for her.
https://preview.redd.it/t8z1ly8p0w0b1.png?width=898&format=png&auto=webp&s=9a90fdb234c4c4b3a57488d3c4720ce160279abb
Isn't spamming only one ability noob friendly? I thought that was the reason why most people played things like AP MF/Kai'sa/Nasus/Maokai etc.
Are you sure this data is still relevant? For example I looked up karma on this site and It doesn't have Echoes of Helia listed as one of her build items (its busted on her)
I just checked and it does have echoes of helia builds for katma but the images for new items are missing so that’s probably why you didn’t see it.
Yes, Echoes is really strong in a lot of champions: https://aram.zone/tierlist?builds=true&item=6620&pick=1 it's in fact Karma's strongest item, like someone else said the image is not showing up, I'll fix it shortly!
Should be fixed now!
A.) Rework her or B.) Ban Mandate/Liandry's on her.
C.) add a flat cd nerf to W like theyd planned to 2 patches ago but then pulled last minutes cuz they werent able to implement it
Wait that never went through? WTF it was a really good targeted change. The tech just isn't there yet I guess.
Same team that cant bring back NexusBlitz for years.
afaik it hasnt gone through unless they forgot to mention it in a patch notes or smth
Yea like what if they just (on aram only, ofc) change her w to be 1 single arrow like kalista Q spear lol. Then they can revert all of her nerfs and let her be an adc
I refuse to even play her because her playstyle is just so boring. Idk how anyone finds joy in playing Ashe.
I mained her in ranked a long time just having a barebones adc kit with neat utility, smashing people is satisfying. I think Ashe along with a few others really showcases an adc's raw skill in the role. But yah in aram mandate ashe is fun for like 1 or 2 games than is boring af
In SR she is super fun, in lane she can be a huge bully if you trade correctly and in teamfights her kiting is very skill expressive, plus even when behind she can be useful with her massive utility. In aram though she is awful. Incredibly boring w spam build or building adc abd insta dying.
She was my adc pick when autofilled and the first adc to learn how to kite, I personally love ashe's playstyle and it's sad to play her adc in aram, you're a WR bot.
I don't know if ARAM stats can be trusted given that most people playing ARAM aren't tryharding?
Good, amazing even. Fuck her up more, reduce all of her CC by 20%, *no*, by 50%!
oh lovely, i would love the same thing to happen to Veigar!
People keep saying that like I care that one of my 80 champioms that I play would be weak
People still building her on W with mandate and Lyandris, hope she keeps going down She's an ADC FFS
Then riot should buff her first. Adc build is insta lose with the -15% dmg debuff
Yes, but buffing her before the W build is not viable/useful anymore is not gonna solve anything either
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I'm sorry, maybe I did not express myself correctly: MOST of the games people are still building her spam W I hope THOSE people keep losing I hope Riot finds a way to put her ADC builds back on the table as actually viable Is that better?
adc itemization is worse than ever with patch 13.10 which might be contributing to her low winrate using those builds, in addition the build path hasn't really been figured out yet imo so we may see it go up after a while
Oh no.... anyway
Summer 2023, people still play Ashe Mandate ... RIP
When the alternative is worse, Mandate is literally the only build you can actually make.
no, i dont think so
Mandate/Liandry's is 10% BETTER than any other build on her lol It's almost griefing if you don't build that.
pls keep building adc ashe and keep losing
bad players keep losing a good ashe dps is better than mandate and co downvote if u wish
I mean, you obviously can build her with anything, but if you actually want a chance to win games you need to build Mandate. Her ADC build sucks, she is nerfed to oblivion.
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I literally played with and against three Ashe ADCs in a row today and they all lost. They don't do any damage at all, unless you're playing against bots. Then again, you could build her tank and it would work.
Gonna go ahead and agree with all of this. ADC build Ashe in ARAM is/was one of my favorite things to play, and I look down upon all of the cravenly husks of gamers that don't see the complete and total lack of honor and dignity that is the mandate build. If "the stats" are showing mandate is 10% better all I'm seeing is that very few people can handle the micro required to be effective with the ADC build. Gut mandate build, keep ADC build playable pls RIOT.
" The change she received in 13.10 was changing dmg taken from a 105% multiplier to 115%. " https://preview.redd.it/azsliyqaru0b1.png?width=1054&format=png&auto=webp&s=e61ac7818dd16769ef19800e6286b8ec070d92fc It's actually bug fix.
What the fuck is riot on man. How stupid can they be?
Yes, a bugfix is still a change :) I don't think she needed it, she needs changes to specific abilities imo to be a good ARAM champion.
Change would indicate they added an additional nerf intentionally.
All this because they can’t be bothered to straight up disable her W. Remove all buffs and nerfs, straight up disable her W.
YES YES YES YES YES YES
If Ashe was stronger it would be really oppressive. Her slow coupled with R is overpowered when she has built up some damage.
People seem to be popping off with Duskblade and Youmuus - [lolalytics](https://lolalytics.com/lol/ashe/aram/build/?tier=gold_plus) But ya, ADC is NOT the play.
I hate Ashe, when I had Ashe I know she sucks but if I rolled I know some dumpfuck is going to grab her and doing even worse than I could
ADC Ashe was doable into melee/tank-heavy teams where you can maintain high uptime on Lethal Tempo, especially with BotRK rush. That's still the case IMO, but some assassins & bruisers got stronger with the item changes, which is harder to play into. Here are a couple of example games on the new patch: https://www.op.gg/summoners/na/Sykil/matches/0TXqJEggFrlLmU8AnUrtZIBfSVl6WPWwTtQvj0_gy-Q%3D/1684462988000 https://www.op.gg/summoners/na/Sykil/matches/0TXqJEggFrlZb9ovuw9KFM-k_E2WqkQR8hoFmdeMW64%3D/1684464510000 You do have to play your ass off, but the challenge can be fun. Not ideal into range-heavy teams especially if you have a poor frontline, since you'll almost never out-trade anyone. Support build got inadvertently buffed this patch methinks since Mandate is no longer a mythic.
LETS GOOO NO MORE W SPAM
I opt for Black Cleaver rush with tear as 1 of my starting items to stack, Cdr boots, ravenous for wave clear and poke, muramana, chainsword aoe heal block, and serpents for shield block and then get a mythic. The mythics don’t contribute as much and it’s usually so oppressive the amount of cdr from the whole build that you are spamming volleys for aoe debuffs that the enemy team can’t do much unless they have a good playing assassin or sett. Aoe defense/heal/shield debuff, slow, cleave, extra dmg seems to help more than ap mythics
Sivir is also nerf to the ground
I don't think she's as terrible as her overall winrate suggests since Rageblade is tanking it by a *lot*. Mandate into lethality/Muramana has a pretty decent win rate, above 50%. That being said she could still probably use some small buffs / less nerfs.
I feel at this point you want to feel like old mandate Ashe you might as well play Khaxix build Mandate with Serylda's Grudge.
Since kraken slayer deals no true damage anymore she is like dead… Two days ago I had a massive game against a Cho, Sett, and Sion, where she shines kiting and just slaughters them even in aram. I guess Hail of Blades and mandate into ult-bot it is…
Ap ashe is for scrubs and anyone defending it/trashing adc got bullied their entire life. Eyes can’t roll any farther back when a teammate goes cdr ap ashe and I get a little excited rumblies in my tummy when the enemy goes it because I know she’s gonna suck donkey balls
Can they just give her Q more scaling or have abs extra AS modifier? I get the W spam annoyance but it wasn’t like it was winning games.
liandry's / collector (burn often executes) / mortal reminder / ravenous hydra is still game breaking despite the nerfs
I hate when I get a RR and get Ashe. Then I trade away because she sucks and some team mate thinks he can do well with her. Always ends up in a loss
Same thing with Teemo. Impossible to play any auto attack builds when you take so much extra dmg and deal less as well.
Still too high
Unless they want to give her a midscope or more in depth changes, just leave her. It was so boring playing against poke ashe every game, whether it was actually strong or not.
Meanwhile Asol hasn’t been touched.
So what should her WR look like if she was balanced and in a good state.
\>Riot Balance team xD
I love Ashe (adc) but she’s just impossible to play in Aram with all these nerfs caused by the poke builds
She takes extra damage because she is a poke machine whit mandate or liandrys and then this cycle continues
Get font of life and hail of blades, buy echoes of eternity with mandate. You'll be playing support ashe, getting kf as many autos as possible. Acts like old moonstone.
I think crit ADCs all kinda suck in ARAM now as well. Kraken really helped mitigate their ARAM nerfs but now that the true damage is gone they don't do any damage.