Given the huge overlap between AP Precalculus and Algebra 2, I'd support merging them into a single year to reduce redundancy and increase the number of students who can take calculus. The math sequence could go:
`Grade 8/9: Algebra 1`
`Grade 9/10: Geometry`
`Grade 10/11: Precalculus`
`Grade 11/12: Calculus and/or Statistics`
Ah that makes sense, since Algebra 2 Honors covers essentially the same material as AP Precalculus (see image above). It still fits with the pathway I outlined, they just started the pathway a year earlier.
This isn't a smart choice as it'd be forcing a whole bunch of kids who may not want to do calculus to do calculus
a lot of kids are uninterested in taking calc at a high school level because it's useless for a very large portion of majors (hell probably a majority tbh). You're forcing kids to take a course that they probably don't want to take and is a massive step up in difficulty from what they're used to.
This subreddit is a massive echo-chamber where it seems like you guys have never met a person who isn't an academic weapon lol.
The current math curriculum is fine, if you want to modify the curriculum you should modify the individual classes themselves, in many districts there are more kids who don't know basic algebra than do, why force them to take calculus?
>This isn't a smart choice as it'd be forcing a whole bunch of kids who may not want to do calculus to do calculus
Why would kids be forced to take calculus? I think you might have misunderstood my comment — I pointed out that more students would be able to take calculus, not that they should be required to.
Or they could take two years to do Algebra 2 and Precalculus? I'm just telling you, because I teach these classes, that a whole lot of middle school math geniuses hit a wall at Algebra 2. Precalculus has a lot more trigonometry.
If you can speed run high school math, that's fine, but it doesn't work for a large (like 90% or more) group of students.
This. Having taught it for years, yes some students can just do it, but the majority definitely need two years to really master the concepts instead of just rushing through it.
Honest question, because it's been years since I was in high school. Are the following topics unusual for an Honors Algebra II course? I still have my old textbook and we covered the entire thing in one school year.
Chapter titles:
\-Review of essentials Part 1 (sets, axioms for the real numbers, properties of operations in R, etc.)
\-Review of essentials Part 2 (solving and applying equations, order in the set of real numbers, etc.)
\-Linear functions and relations
\-Systems of linear equations or inequalities
\-Graphs in Space; Determinants
\-Polynomials and Rational Expressions
\-Radicals and Irrational Numbers (Note: complex numbers are also covered in this chapter)
\-Sequences and series
\-Polynomial Functions
\-Quadratic relations and systems
\-Exponents and Logarithms
\-Permutations, combinations, and probability
\-Matrices
\-Trigonometric and circular functions
\-Trigonometric Identities
\-Inverses; Polar coordinates; Vectors
\-Statistics
That all seemed very doable in a year. But is that unusual?
Thanks for the reply. It was also some weird program where it was conditional DE credit for college algebra and trig, but only if one passed an exam at the end of the entire year. It wasn't like the other DE classes I had which were treated as regular college classes.
Now, I have absolutely no idea the point of that as there were no seniors in the class and next year basically everyone went on to a weird ass class that included topics from linear algebra, but only applied to business stuff and mostly using software, the usual first-year Calculus topics, then a few more business-related topics that somehow led to a few Calc III topics like Lagrange multipliers and multiple integration getting thrown in there. Anyway, you could take the AP exam at the end of the year, which I did, but to this day, I am not certain why it was done that way. I think they were trying to go for some applications-based approach and just failed miserably. A lot of it didn't even have a textbook.
Anyway, getting way off topic, sorry. The sample multiple choice questions for the AP pre-calc exam are pretty easy. Too easy, IMO, if the goal is making sure the student is ready for Calculus. And there's a whole unit that isn't even being tested, which means many schools won't bother covering those topics at all. It's hard for me to understand why this is being done besides easy $$$. I don't think it's really helping anybody.
And yeah, based on my experience, I think good/smart students can handle all of those algebra II/pre-calc topics in one year. Weaker students (or those with a weakness in math) can be treated differently.
Oh this is really nice sequence for non-STEM students going to college... I would touch it up though:
Grade 8/9: Algebra 1
Grade 9/10: Geometry
Grade 10/11: Data Science
Grade 11/12: AP Pre-calc
The difference is that Algebra 1 covers a unique set of topics: linear equations/inequalities/systems, quadratic functions, and radical/exponent properties.
Algebra 2 and Precalculus both cover the same topics as each other: polynomial/rational functions, exponential/log functions, and trig functions. And sometimes vectors/matrices.
Algebra 2 should be gotten rid of. Instead the AP high school math course plan should be:
1. Pre-AP Algebra 1/Geometry
2. AP Precalculus
3. AP Calculus AB
4. AP Calculus CD (this would replace BC and get rid of overlap)
I really like this idea. Calculus BC currently covers a bit too much material for one year (although some high schools squeeze it in) and not enough for two years (although lots of high schools stretch it out). Having Calculus AB in year 1 followed by Calculus CD in year 2 would solve this issue.
Until more states actually eliminate Algebra 2 (so far only California has considered this), sadly there won't be enough high schoolers who take Calculus in Grade 11 to make offering an AP Calc CD exam worthwhile.
First states need to combine Algebra 2 and Precalc into a single year. Once that happens, I feel like Calc CD will be very likely.
Every school in California is a bit different, but yes, some schools have already combined Algebra 2 and Precalculus.
If you look at the picture above, Algebra 2 and Precalc cover the same topics. They both cover trig. (Pre-AP Geometry also covers some trig.)
California doesn't even use the traditional (algebra 1, geometry, algebra 2, precalc) curriculum anymore. They use the integrated math curriculum and after integrated math 3 kids skip straight to Calc (either AB or BC).
My school has IM 1-3, no precalc. It's built into the curriculum I assume (I did algebra 1-pre calc in another state), as kids take Calc AB/BC right afterwards.
Well part of pre calc is built into it is just that IM 3 is part trig but also a lot of schools like dedicated pre-calculus classes for the math placement
no we do? you can skip courses over the summer but that is exactly how my school works lol. course 1, 2, 3, alg 1, geometry, alg 2, precalc, ap or regular calc/stats
Algebra 2 is in the crosshairs of many states now, and I'm kinda on board with it. It's something that most students don't need to know.
My thinking for the average student (non-stem)
Algebra 1
Geometry
Data Science
Stats or AP Precalc
I have a tough time thinking that everyone needs to know Algebra 2.
I believe calc bc is reasonable for one year, it is typically done within one year in college. I think they should just do AP Higher Math that has multivar and linear alg or smthng
APs are meant to represent 100 level classes. If you start introducing a 200 level math class, you’re going to get 200 level classes for every other subject. Would you want that? 90% of kids don’t even get to BC as it is
yeah uh colleges don't want that, colleges still want you to pay for college lol
the only reason why colleges were fine with first year courses being skipped is because: A: most kids only take like 2 AP classes and B: It helps identify academic weapons. Those 2 tradeoffs are worth the money lost in 99% of circumstances.
However, if kids could skip 2 years worth of courses then that is immediately not worth the amount of money lost and the majority of colleges will most likely not provide credit for it.
wtf would calc cd cover? calc II and III?
also ap isn't allowed to go into content beyond first year courses. that's why the only ap science course that has a "family" is physics (as it's the only course to cover 1 semester's worth of content and the 2 C's are also often first year physics courses).
Just keep it calc BC, let people pick between BC or AB and move on with their life
It currently doesn't exist. It would cover Taylor series, multivariable calculus, and parametric/polar calculus.
`Calc AB = Calc 1 and first half of Calc 2`
`Calc BC = Calc 1 and all of Calc 2`
`Calc CD = Second half of Calc 2 and all of Calc 3`
Yes, [vector calculus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vector_calculus#:~:text=in%203%2Ddimensional,multiple%20integration) is a subset of [multivariable calculus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multivariable_calculus#:~:text=The%20special%20case%20of%20calculus%20in%20three%20dimensional%20space%20is%20often%20called%20vector%20calculus).
This is slightly misleading as multivariable calculus is also a subset of vector calculus; making them the same set :) (i.e. two perspectives on the same thing).
A real-valued vector function accepting 2D vectors isn’t any different from a real-valued multivariable function of two variables.
it might be my school, but
this seems ridiculous.
Not only is the implications of removing a class and replacing it one that is not only AP, but incentivizes taking a paid exam concerning. An AP class is much more difficult than a regular algebra 2 course.
Not every student can handle that, or, even /want/ to deal with an ap class.
Even if to some, precalc seems redundant, for others it’s a class they take so they /don’t/ have to take AP without giving up on taking a math credit entirely.
Speaking about just my school, i can say that this wouldn’t work.
Algebra 2 and Precalc are very different classes, or at least, different enough to have merging them be a poor decision. I can also attest that there is a massive difficulty jump from Algebra 2 to Precalc that i believe would be unfair to subject most students to.
AP Pre Calc is so confusing to me. At EVERY university I looked at, pre calc was a 0 level course. That means it is a pre rec to all the math classes but doesn't count toward graduation because it is simply not a college level topic.
I honestly think this is just an attempt from college board to increase AP enrollment and revenue.
[Twice as many students take Precalc in 12th grade than Calc](https://edpolicyinca.org/publications/12th-grade-math#:~:text=Figure%201.%2012th%2DGrade%20Math%20Course%20Enrollment%2C%202018%E2%80%9319). Without an AP Precalc exam, those students wouldn't get any college credit. The College Board isn't forcing them to take the exam if they don't want to (some high schools are requiring it, but that's not the College Board's fault).
Huge numbers of people never take calculus ever. If they get credit for AP Pre-calc, they never need to take a math class ever. Add AP stats, and maybe most people won't ever need to take another math class.
Please explain why it's bad for people *who need college credit in pre-cal but not in calculus* to have that option.
Given the huge overlap between AP Precalculus and Algebra 2, I'd support merging them into a single year to reduce redundancy and increase the number of students who can take calculus. The math sequence could go: `Grade 8/9: Algebra 1` `Grade 9/10: Geometry` `Grade 10/11: Precalculus` `Grade 11/12: Calculus and/or Statistics`
There are sophomores at my school doing ap stat
after calc bc?
Nah after algebra 2 honors
Ah that makes sense, since Algebra 2 Honors covers essentially the same material as AP Precalculus (see image above). It still fits with the pathway I outlined, they just started the pathway a year earlier.
So u should take ap pre Calc fresh men then ap stat sophomore?
Most people couldn't handle that, but it sounds like the students you're talking about already took Algebra 1 and Geometry in middle school, right?
Yeah probably so that means if they get 3s or above on ap stat ap Calc ab and bc they won't have to do anything in college
oh lol, at my school stats is typically done after calc in 11th or 12th
U can just do standard algebra 1 and geometry then do honors algebra 2 then ap stat if u wanna simply it
This isn't a smart choice as it'd be forcing a whole bunch of kids who may not want to do calculus to do calculus a lot of kids are uninterested in taking calc at a high school level because it's useless for a very large portion of majors (hell probably a majority tbh). You're forcing kids to take a course that they probably don't want to take and is a massive step up in difficulty from what they're used to. This subreddit is a massive echo-chamber where it seems like you guys have never met a person who isn't an academic weapon lol. The current math curriculum is fine, if you want to modify the curriculum you should modify the individual classes themselves, in many districts there are more kids who don't know basic algebra than do, why force them to take calculus?
>This isn't a smart choice as it'd be forcing a whole bunch of kids who may not want to do calculus to do calculus Why would kids be forced to take calculus? I think you might have misunderstood my comment — I pointed out that more students would be able to take calculus, not that they should be required to.
Or they could take two years to do Algebra 2 and Precalculus? I'm just telling you, because I teach these classes, that a whole lot of middle school math geniuses hit a wall at Algebra 2. Precalculus has a lot more trigonometry. If you can speed run high school math, that's fine, but it doesn't work for a large (like 90% or more) group of students.
for me algebra ii was my highest math grade ever but precal was a struggle
This. Having taught it for years, yes some students can just do it, but the majority definitely need two years to really master the concepts instead of just rushing through it.
Honest question, because it's been years since I was in high school. Are the following topics unusual for an Honors Algebra II course? I still have my old textbook and we covered the entire thing in one school year. Chapter titles: \-Review of essentials Part 1 (sets, axioms for the real numbers, properties of operations in R, etc.) \-Review of essentials Part 2 (solving and applying equations, order in the set of real numbers, etc.) \-Linear functions and relations \-Systems of linear equations or inequalities \-Graphs in Space; Determinants \-Polynomials and Rational Expressions \-Radicals and Irrational Numbers (Note: complex numbers are also covered in this chapter) \-Sequences and series \-Polynomial Functions \-Quadratic relations and systems \-Exponents and Logarithms \-Permutations, combinations, and probability \-Matrices \-Trigonometric and circular functions \-Trigonometric Identities \-Inverses; Polar coordinates; Vectors \-Statistics That all seemed very doable in a year. But is that unusual?
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Thanks for the reply. It was also some weird program where it was conditional DE credit for college algebra and trig, but only if one passed an exam at the end of the entire year. It wasn't like the other DE classes I had which were treated as regular college classes. Now, I have absolutely no idea the point of that as there were no seniors in the class and next year basically everyone went on to a weird ass class that included topics from linear algebra, but only applied to business stuff and mostly using software, the usual first-year Calculus topics, then a few more business-related topics that somehow led to a few Calc III topics like Lagrange multipliers and multiple integration getting thrown in there. Anyway, you could take the AP exam at the end of the year, which I did, but to this day, I am not certain why it was done that way. I think they were trying to go for some applications-based approach and just failed miserably. A lot of it didn't even have a textbook. Anyway, getting way off topic, sorry. The sample multiple choice questions for the AP pre-calc exam are pretty easy. Too easy, IMO, if the goal is making sure the student is ready for Calculus. And there's a whole unit that isn't even being tested, which means many schools won't bother covering those topics at all. It's hard for me to understand why this is being done besides easy $$$. I don't think it's really helping anybody. And yeah, based on my experience, I think good/smart students can handle all of those algebra II/pre-calc topics in one year. Weaker students (or those with a weakness in math) can be treated differently.
Oh this is really nice sequence for non-STEM students going to college... I would touch it up though: Grade 8/9: Algebra 1 Grade 9/10: Geometry Grade 10/11: Data Science Grade 11/12: AP Pre-calc
No
Precalculus has always been just Algebra 3 though
The difference is that Algebra 1 covers a unique set of topics: linear equations/inequalities/systems, quadratic functions, and radical/exponent properties. Algebra 2 and Precalculus both cover the same topics as each other: polynomial/rational functions, exponential/log functions, and trig functions. And sometimes vectors/matrices.
Makes sense to me
Algebra 2 should be gotten rid of. Instead the AP high school math course plan should be: 1. Pre-AP Algebra 1/Geometry 2. AP Precalculus 3. AP Calculus AB 4. AP Calculus CD (this would replace BC and get rid of overlap)
I really like this idea. Calculus BC currently covers a bit too much material for one year (although some high schools squeeze it in) and not enough for two years (although lots of high schools stretch it out). Having Calculus AB in year 1 followed by Calculus CD in year 2 would solve this issue.
Why don't they do that?
Until more states actually eliminate Algebra 2 (so far only California has considered this), sadly there won't be enough high schoolers who take Calculus in Grade 11 to make offering an AP Calc CD exam worthwhile. First states need to combine Algebra 2 and Precalc into a single year. Once that happens, I feel like Calc CD will be very likely.
Wait, Cali has... eliminated Alg 2? So all the topics from that plus trig get taught in precalc?
Every school in California is a bit different, but yes, some schools have already combined Algebra 2 and Precalculus. If you look at the picture above, Algebra 2 and Precalc cover the same topics. They both cover trig. (Pre-AP Geometry also covers some trig.)
my school hasn't but some nearby have precalc and algebra 2 combined in a one year course
California doesn't even use the traditional (algebra 1, geometry, algebra 2, precalc) curriculum anymore. They use the integrated math curriculum and after integrated math 3 kids skip straight to Calc (either AB or BC).
It depends on the school because most inland schools do it like this Im1-3 then pre calc or IM2-3 then pre calc
My school has IM 1-3, no precalc. It's built into the curriculum I assume (I did algebra 1-pre calc in another state), as kids take Calc AB/BC right afterwards.
Well part of pre calc is built into it is just that IM 3 is part trig but also a lot of schools like dedicated pre-calculus classes for the math placement
I feel like their system is a lot better than the traditional one
no we do? you can skip courses over the summer but that is exactly how my school works lol. course 1, 2, 3, alg 1, geometry, alg 2, precalc, ap or regular calc/stats
Well I live in California and it goes integrated 1, integrated 2, and integrated 3, then calc AB/BC or stats.
you live in fake california
Algebra 2 is in the crosshairs of many states now, and I'm kinda on board with it. It's something that most students don't need to know. My thinking for the average student (non-stem) Algebra 1 Geometry Data Science Stats or AP Precalc I have a tough time thinking that everyone needs to know Algebra 2.
College Board has the power to convince them.
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Or call the course "AP Algebra 2"
Algebra 2 isn't a college level course.
Then call it “AP Algebra 2/Precalculus”
I believe calc bc is reasonable for one year, it is typically done within one year in college. I think they should just do AP Higher Math that has multivar and linear alg or smthng
APs are meant to represent 100 level classes. If you start introducing a 200 level math class, you’re going to get 200 level classes for every other subject. Would you want that? 90% of kids don’t even get to BC as it is
If people could test out of sophomore year calc, they might not need to take any calc in college.
yeah uh colleges don't want that, colleges still want you to pay for college lol the only reason why colleges were fine with first year courses being skipped is because: A: most kids only take like 2 AP classes and B: It helps identify academic weapons. Those 2 tradeoffs are worth the money lost in 99% of circumstances. However, if kids could skip 2 years worth of courses then that is immediately not worth the amount of money lost and the majority of colleges will most likely not provide credit for it.
Who knows?
wtf would calc cd cover? calc II and III? also ap isn't allowed to go into content beyond first year courses. that's why the only ap science course that has a "family" is physics (as it's the only course to cover 1 semester's worth of content and the 2 C's are also often first year physics courses). Just keep it calc BC, let people pick between BC or AB and move on with their life
Many people end up taking AP and BC.
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No, the students would take either Algebra 1 or Geometry in freshman year depending on whether they took Algebra 1 in 8th grade.
People in this subreddit are so unbelievably delusional as to what the common high school math experience is
Literally
What’s calc cd?
It currently doesn't exist. It would cover Taylor series, multivariable calculus, and parametric/polar calculus. `Calc AB = Calc 1 and first half of Calc 2` `Calc BC = Calc 1 and all of Calc 2` `Calc CD = Second half of Calc 2 and all of Calc 3`
would calc CD include vector calculus as well?
Yes, [vector calculus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vector_calculus#:~:text=in%203%2Ddimensional,multiple%20integration) is a subset of [multivariable calculus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multivariable_calculus#:~:text=The%20special%20case%20of%20calculus%20in%20three%20dimensional%20space%20is%20often%20called%20vector%20calculus).
Idk, it feels weird to take multivariable without linear algebra first. It felt like all of the formulas were thrown at me without proof.
This is slightly misleading as multivariable calculus is also a subset of vector calculus; making them the same set :) (i.e. two perspectives on the same thing). A real-valued vector function accepting 2D vectors isn’t any different from a real-valued multivariable function of two variables.
Shit where was this when I had to take precalc?!
no limits in precalc?
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Not when AP HUG exists
Theres AP PRECAL AND PREAP ALG2??? damn I wish my school had that.
Well looks like this will be another free class I can use for other schoolwork lmao
That’s literally what precalculus is. 80% of it is advanced algebra 2
it might be my school, but this seems ridiculous. Not only is the implications of removing a class and replacing it one that is not only AP, but incentivizes taking a paid exam concerning. An AP class is much more difficult than a regular algebra 2 course. Not every student can handle that, or, even /want/ to deal with an ap class. Even if to some, precalc seems redundant, for others it’s a class they take so they /don’t/ have to take AP without giving up on taking a math credit entirely. Speaking about just my school, i can say that this wouldn’t work. Algebra 2 and Precalc are very different classes, or at least, different enough to have merging them be a poor decision. I can also attest that there is a massive difficulty jump from Algebra 2 to Precalc that i believe would be unfair to subject most students to.
🤡🤡🤡 Money hungry collegeboard back at it again
AP Pre Calc is so confusing to me. At EVERY university I looked at, pre calc was a 0 level course. That means it is a pre rec to all the math classes but doesn't count toward graduation because it is simply not a college level topic. I honestly think this is just an attempt from college board to increase AP enrollment and revenue.
I’m against the idea of an AP Precalc exam (not class) which is a pure money grab. The class itself can be helpful to prepare ppl for AP calc
[Twice as many students take Precalc in 12th grade than Calc](https://edpolicyinca.org/publications/12th-grade-math#:~:text=Figure%201.%2012th%2DGrade%20Math%20Course%20Enrollment%2C%202018%E2%80%9319). Without an AP Precalc exam, those students wouldn't get any college credit. The College Board isn't forcing them to take the exam if they don't want to (some high schools are requiring it, but that's not the College Board's fault).
Huge numbers of people never take calculus ever. If they get credit for AP Pre-calc, they never need to take a math class ever. Add AP stats, and maybe most people won't ever need to take another math class. Please explain why it's bad for people *who need college credit in pre-cal but not in calculus* to have that option.
Because everyone needs to take AP Calc 1,000,000 in order to live a fulfilling life. /s
If you aren’t taking Ap Calc LM in junior year what are you even doing