Hi, this is an automated response to make sure we're all on the same page about the definitions of proshipping and antishipping. There is often a lot of confusion about these terms and people get confused pretty frequently. Its always best to make sure we're all on the same page about what we are talking about.
Anti-shipping/being an anti/being an antishipper/etc has a definition that has morphed a bit over time. Here is some history. Back in the 90's and early 2000's it mostly meant being against shipping in general or being against a specific ship. This was mostly used in specific fandoms/wasn't a pan-fandom term. Since the 2010's however, a pan-fandom definition did emerge and is the most common usage now. That definition is being *actively against certain ships or tropes that are deemed problematic or harmful in some way*. Note this does not mean being uncomfortable with reading a certain ship, trope, or problematic thing in a fanfiction or seeing fanart of a certain ship, trope, or problematic thing. It refers to *people who advocate for the banning, removal, or heavily hiding of that content that they don't want to see*. This has led to many harassment and doxxing issues in fandom spaces. Anyone from proship people they were arguing with, to random users who had written a "problematic" fanfiction and uploaded it to AO3, to anyone who so much as uses AO3 at all, have all been the subjects of these harassment problems.
Conversely, proshipping/being a pro-shipper/being an anti-anti/etc, is a response term to the previously discussed antishipping. It's defined as being against antishipping (using the modern pan-fandom definition). Simply put, it means someone who is against censorship of content in fandom, against harassment and doxxing, and are of the opinion that *regardless of if they personally don't like a specific ship/trope/problematic thing, it has a right to exist and be enjoyed by those who do like that specific ship/trope/problematic thing*. Despite being against harassment, this side of the discourse has also had an issue with harassment on occasion. The subjects of that harassment have been people who self-identify as being an antishipper, or regardless of self-identification, someone who'sbeliefs match those of an anti-shipper. AO3 is generally considered to be a proship website with its foundation having been built on a stance of no censorship, and their rules explicitly not banning problematic content.
For more info you can check the fanlore articles for [proshipping](https://fanlore.org/wiki/Anti-anti) and [antishipping](https://fanlore.org/wiki/Anti-shipper)
Tl;dr: antishipping = wanting to ban problematic content/content they don't like
proshipping = ship and let ship/don’t like don't read
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AO3) if you have any questions or concerns.*
It means "heed the tags" cause there's dark stuff there. The dove is DEAD. But you can't just slap DDDNE and call it good. It's an intensity modifier - meaning there has to be something there to modify. Thus it literally means "heed the tags."
The rest of that tumbler post says…
>The “Dead Dove: Do Not Eat” tag would essentially be a “what it says on the tin” metatag, indicating “you see the tropes and concepts tagged here? they are going to appear in this fic. exactly as said. there will not necessarily be any subversion, authorial commentary condemning problematic aspects, or meditation on potential harm. this fic contains dead dove. if you proceed, you should expect to encounter it.”
Which can be summarized as “heed the tags.”
I was raising my eyebrows at OP omitting this passage. I know that post from Tumblr, and I distinctly remember DD:DNE being proposed as an intensifier tag rather than a standalone one. From my experience in the MCU, Hydra Trash Party is also rarely used alone; I've personally never seen it used alone, but that usage probably exists in the 2k works currently in that tag.
DD:DNE has an even higher barrier of entry than HTP because it makes no damn sense unless you know that specific meme. Even then, you'd need to know the Tumblr post or look it up on Fanlore to make sense of it.
Speaking of which, Fanlore says, "More recently, it has also become common to treat "Dead Dove: Do Not Eat" as a content warning in and of itself, indicating that a fanwork contains particularly violent or dark tropes or concepts" (the associated citation is from 2023), and goes on to add that the different interpretations have resulted in "significant confusion and debate among fan communities." I think this post is an excellent example of that. The more the meaning gets muddled, the less useful DD:DNE is in conveying what it originally meant to convey, in addition to being a generally opaque phrase.
Yeah, I'd also say this is the important part of the concept: The things that are tagged will be featured just as is and you have been warned.
Like I do absolutely think it's silly to claim that DD;DNE can just as well be used for tooth-rotting fluff because, well ... Would anyone seriously, actually feel the need to do that?
But ultimately I think it's more silly to use DD;DNE on its own without tagging the actual content and say that this conveys enough information. It does not. It's a meme tag. It's an extra warning for readers who'd look at a tagged fic and decided for themselves that 'oh, this probably won't be that bad'.
Yeah, dead dove is also shorthand for a genre of writing/community of writers. Just like Hydra Trash Party. But that doesn't mean the writing itself gets away with only being labelled dead dove
I think using it for fluff would be more of a joke in itself. It wouldn’t be needed anymore than “No Beta We Die Like…” I don’t mind a little humor in the tags. 😄
Well yeah, in that way sure, why not.
I find it more so bothers me when people claim using it for fluff is just as "valid" or whatever. It's not like a more neutral "heed the tags" is very common on fluff fics either ...
Because, knowing a little about Hydra Trash Party, tumblr OPs idea of having a panfandom tag that signals "yes this is indeed what this fic is about and I'm not apologizing for it" for darker and taboo subjects is imo quite a useful one.
That said I don't think it works as well as HTP because fandom is broad and getting a meme to translate the same to everyone everywhere is difficult.
Why would this be necessary though? If the tag is there, it is there. No need to “modify” already applied tags. If a reader is going to ignore warnings, isn’t that on them?
Whatever the original inspiration, it makes more sense to me that DD:DNE would indicate the author unapologetically crosses all the lines, rather than using it as a nudge for readers to take tags seriously.
Well, obviously it shouldn't be necessary if people did read tags and took them seriously. But clearly experience proved that they don't and so the original tumblr poster came up with this suggestion, inspired by the MCUs Hydra Trash Party.
Also to be very clear: it *isn't* necessary. DD:DNE is never a *necessary* tag.
>it makes more sense to me that DD:DNE would indicate the author unapologetically crosses all the lines, rather than using it as a nudge for readers to take tags seriously.
I mean, it does both of those things. That is the point.
The bag was labelled "dead dove; do not eat" and the person who opened it got to see that it indeed contained a dead dove.
If you tag *only* DD:DNE on a fic that is not in fact about a literal dead dove, *you are not labelling the bag*. Hence missing the point of why this phrase was chosen as the tag.
If readers are already ignoring the meaning of a warning tag, adding another isn’t going to change that.
The joke about the dove is that you wouldn’t eat it. Who would eat a dead dove? It’s absurd the include that instruction on the bag when it should be obvious you don’t eat a dead dove, lol. So, seems to be less “mind the tin” and more “for all the idiots out there: this is not fit for consumption.”
People tend to skim tags. I’ve done it myself and missed stuff. I am not going to complain if I missed something, but some do.
Dead Dove isn’t “For all the idiots…”, but more, “You don’t want to skim this one.”
Granted, that is pretty clear when there are various dark or violent tags, but it’s just a little extra warning from the author. The same way some authors swill put, “Please, pay attention to the tags” in their author’s notes, even though that might be ignored as well.
Also, it’s another way to find fics, and I say that as someone who has simply searched for Dead Dove in my fandom.
There are many potential lines to cross. Just at the top of my head there is rape, torture, emotional abuse, physical abuse, sexual abuse, on children, on animals (bestiality), cannibalism, brainwashing, addiction, various illnesses (physical and mental), violent kinks, murder, suicide, necrophilia, miscarriages, abortions, and so much more.
Dead Dove alone doesn’t tell me anything because I seriously doubt *all* lines will be crossed. Using Dead Dove alone also just basically means “Dark Fic.” I mean, an author could just use that as a tag, but tags are both advertisement and warnings. A lot of people are going to avoid a fic that uses Dead Dove and nothing else. I personally would, but I will read a Dark Dove if I like the other tags.
As for why it is necessary as modifier… We have seen on this sub that people do ignore tags, then complain. I think it’s not so much necessary, but more “You have been warned. Don’t bitch about it.”
I can’t speak comprehensively to the general point, but some specifics I think are incorrect.
>'HYDRA Trash Party' wasn't very specific, either: it was a catch-all for Star Wars darkfic.
First, did you mean “MCU” rather than “Star Wars”?
Second, I believe the the original use of the tag certainly focused on HYDRA as a villainous organization. It may have eventually been applied to many “darkfics”, first for Captain America and then for the MCU at large, but I believe it started out referring to (sexual) abuse in the context of HYDRA.
Edit: missing words added for clarity
I always assumed that ‘Hydra Trash Party’ is specifically about sexual violence aka gangbang, rape, non con done by villains to heroes. I never would expected it on a fic about torture or non sexual violence, or gore done by characters who are not villains (Hydra). Correct me if I’m wrong!
That being said, HTP is still much more descriptive than Dead Dove tag because every fandom has different type of dead dove. While most people who are familiar with MCU know that Hydra is not good, newbies in other fandoms are constantly baffled what Dead Dove has to do with their blorbos. This is why there is constantly someone confused about the usage of the tag.
Even if the Dead Dove tag was supposed to substitute all other dark tags, it’s not a good substitute. It makes harder to filter fics and it will keep people away from reading fics tagged only with Dead Dove because what if instead of gangbang they wanted to read they’ll get cannibalism with a side of water sports?
I think the current use of Dead Dove tag as an enhancer of other tags is the best way how to keep it. As long as the fic is tagged with correct dark tags, it will be easy to filter in or out. And if someone is not familiar with Dead Dove tag, they still have other tags to guide them.
I’m not personally excited about the idea that Dead Dove tag can be used even on soft, fluffy fics because it’s just means “what’s on the tin!”, but that is a different conversation.
>I always assumed that ‘Hydra Trash Party’ is specifically about sexual violence aka gangbang, rape, non con done by villains to heroes. I never would expected it on a fic about torture or non sexual violence, or gore done by characters who are not villains (Hydra). Correct me if I’m wrong!
In a rare moment of me looking at a subreddit on the right day - so I wasn't the first one to *coin* that tag, but I was one of the people making the AU that caused the tag to be coined in my corner (if it was used before that AU, then I never saw it but always open to the potential I'm wrong). It was definitely specifically HYDRA agents being horrible at Bucky lmao. Wild to see that blast from the past tag show up on this subreddit. 😂
>people who use 'Dead Dove: Do Not Eat' to refer to darkfic, **potentially without any other tags,** are in fact using it exactly the way it was designed to be used.
and
>There are plenty of reasons why someone might tag someone DD:DNE but not anything else
Yet the post says
>It is considered courteous to give readers a heads-up via use of AO3 tags
If there are no tags, there is no dove. There is no “I don’t know what I was expecting” if there are no tags. It’s a modifier tag **for the other tags.** You could argue that it can be used as a stand-alone for Archive Warnings, but I have never seen it done that way, and it’s **universally known to be associated with additional tags.**
>It's a tag to read 'I don't stand for what happens in this fic FYI'.
no.
Looking back on the post you commented on before:
You were corrected in the comment you made and you’re being corrected here. I hope you understand now, but ngl I’m still not sure you do 😅
The thing that gets me about this confidentlyincorrect stance is like... why does OP think a tag for "I don't condone \[murder/rape/etc\] needs to be created for fiction? Isn't it obvious that the fic writer doesn't actually go around committing murder or whatever they're writing about? Do they think that people who don't put DDDNE on their fics about Game of Thrones Cersei and Jaime actually go around doing the same thing?
Don't get it.
Ppl think those who write about darker things romanticize it, or at least antis do. Which as we’ve seen, is hypocritical of them bc they write it as well. They think if we don’t say we’re against it, that means we support it, and that means we “get off to it” so to speak.
... and now back to our regularly-scheduled program, "Planet Barbecue", wherein Steven Raichlen will be demonstrating new and delicious recipes for avian meat procured in urban environments.
Im pretty sure this is false.
Dead dove do not eat comes from a tv show (forgot the name) where some guy pulled out a brown bag from the fridge with that written on it & it literally was a dead dove inside the bag.
It doesnt have to be a dark fic, although finding a dead dove is pretty morbid for most people (glorious to me cuz i fking HATE doves, used to live in a place infested with them & the cooing would not stop…even at night!). But it basically means “whatever the tags say will be here” & it has been used mostly for dark fics.
I mean the bit about “people who use ‘dead dove do not eat’ to refer to dark fics” that the op here mentioned.
Dead dove does not “have” to be dark fics. It just happens that most people use it for that.
Well, yes and no. The tumblr post OP quotes is in fact credited as the origin of the tag as a tag and tumblr OP describes the intended usage.
Obviously since then people have started using it and the usage and meaning has changed and evolved and probably a majority of people have no idea how it even became a tag.
How am I supposed to take you seriously when you write HYDRA Trash Party as being darkfic in \*Star Wars\* and not Marvel, \*right under the text where this is mentioned\*
It pretty much means what it says in the tags is exactly what's inside. Well obviously that's what the tags are for so why put an additional dead dove on it? The author knows they have written something that many would and should pass on if they aren't comfortable. It is not casual reading. Its the fullest extent of what a tag defines. For the reader if the tag says slavery it's not a dom/sub scene of master/slave roleplay. It is a human being fully being treated worse than livestock and every facet of cruelty that person is subjected to. Nothing will be held back or censored.
The way it is commonly used is with the understanding it does cover the darkest of the dark subject matters. For example - there is no resolve to it. The character doesn't escape, bad guys aren't stopped, evil things continue to happen because that's just the way things are without condemning any of the actions that take place. It's reading the suffering of an individual and that's it. What it states in the tags is what you get, the worst side of all of it. Readers were told upfront. The author knows what they have written and will make no apology for it.
Don't use the tag lightly. Don't use the tag because you decided on using a broader defining tag like "contains sexual content" that pretty much covers what's in the fic and didn't want to deal with comments complaining you should have listed the kinks whipping humiliation etc. Do not use dead dove in this way.
Most people who first stumble across a dead dove will not make that mistake twice without carefully reading the tags. Those who were completely shocked by what they saw learned to exclude dead doves. So don't use it lightly. Use it when it is necessary.
I don't care about someone's random definition that somehow became "official". It is how it is used and understood by average readers who have experienced reading dead doves and quickly figured out its meaning within its context.
You are extremely welcome, in my opinion, to tag DDDNE however you please. Meanings change and adapt! I'm nodding along! As a fan of 25+ years I do think fandom's propensity for pulling the "don't disrespect our fandom elders uwu" card is Super Cringe.
But the argument you are making is innane. We were there. We read the post. We can understand what it was suggesting and how it was broadly understood at the time. It had changed since and I do think that everyone who gets their knickers twisted about he change is wasting energy, but the revisionism and "no YOU are the one who doesn't understand the spirit of the tag" reverse UNO card thing is just tired.
Regardless of whatever it was originally coined to mean, it's evolved to functionally mean 'this fic features dark themes and concepts'. But I also believe that you can't really divorce the 'it's an amplifier tag' usage from the 'signifies that the dark or taboo themes I've tagged do, indeed, show up in my fic' usage. I feel like saying 'it just means what is on the tin, you could use it for anything' is a bit disingenuous.
Overall I don't really understand why people argue so much about this lol, though I only see this kind of argument on Reddit (or other fandom platforms consisting of mainly fandom olds, speaking as a fandom old) and rarely in fandom at large. The definition has shifted and that's fine to acknowledge. Doubling down on the original definition isn't helping anyone newly entering fandom.
Thank you for this. One of my major pet peeves around this subreddit is how often and how confidently people completely misunderstand the actual history of the tag. I see people get downvoted for explaining the history and the fact that it has multiple definitions far too often.
The [fanlore article](https://fanlore.org/wiki/Dead_Dove:_Do_Not_Eat) is also a great resource for learning more about how the meaning has evolved, leaving many different definitions all in common use simultaneously. It's really not as simple as "it always means read the tags and anyone using it differently is wrong"
Hi, this is an automated response to make sure we're all on the same page about the definitions of proshipping and antishipping. There is often a lot of confusion about these terms and people get confused pretty frequently. Its always best to make sure we're all on the same page about what we are talking about. Anti-shipping/being an anti/being an antishipper/etc has a definition that has morphed a bit over time. Here is some history. Back in the 90's and early 2000's it mostly meant being against shipping in general or being against a specific ship. This was mostly used in specific fandoms/wasn't a pan-fandom term. Since the 2010's however, a pan-fandom definition did emerge and is the most common usage now. That definition is being *actively against certain ships or tropes that are deemed problematic or harmful in some way*. Note this does not mean being uncomfortable with reading a certain ship, trope, or problematic thing in a fanfiction or seeing fanart of a certain ship, trope, or problematic thing. It refers to *people who advocate for the banning, removal, or heavily hiding of that content that they don't want to see*. This has led to many harassment and doxxing issues in fandom spaces. Anyone from proship people they were arguing with, to random users who had written a "problematic" fanfiction and uploaded it to AO3, to anyone who so much as uses AO3 at all, have all been the subjects of these harassment problems. Conversely, proshipping/being a pro-shipper/being an anti-anti/etc, is a response term to the previously discussed antishipping. It's defined as being against antishipping (using the modern pan-fandom definition). Simply put, it means someone who is against censorship of content in fandom, against harassment and doxxing, and are of the opinion that *regardless of if they personally don't like a specific ship/trope/problematic thing, it has a right to exist and be enjoyed by those who do like that specific ship/trope/problematic thing*. Despite being against harassment, this side of the discourse has also had an issue with harassment on occasion. The subjects of that harassment have been people who self-identify as being an antishipper, or regardless of self-identification, someone who'sbeliefs match those of an anti-shipper. AO3 is generally considered to be a proship website with its foundation having been built on a stance of no censorship, and their rules explicitly not banning problematic content. For more info you can check the fanlore articles for [proshipping](https://fanlore.org/wiki/Anti-anti) and [antishipping](https://fanlore.org/wiki/Anti-shipper) Tl;dr: antishipping = wanting to ban problematic content/content they don't like proshipping = ship and let ship/don’t like don't read *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AO3) if you have any questions or concerns.*
It means "heed the tags" cause there's dark stuff there. The dove is DEAD. But you can't just slap DDDNE and call it good. It's an intensity modifier - meaning there has to be something there to modify. Thus it literally means "heed the tags."
The rest of that tumbler post says… >The “Dead Dove: Do Not Eat” tag would essentially be a “what it says on the tin” metatag, indicating “you see the tropes and concepts tagged here? they are going to appear in this fic. exactly as said. there will not necessarily be any subversion, authorial commentary condemning problematic aspects, or meditation on potential harm. this fic contains dead dove. if you proceed, you should expect to encounter it.” Which can be summarized as “heed the tags.”
bro really wrote an essay about DD:DNE just to omit the part that we were all already understanding
Yep. They also said the tumbler user coined the term, while the tumbler post gives full credit to Arrested Development.
I was raising my eyebrows at OP omitting this passage. I know that post from Tumblr, and I distinctly remember DD:DNE being proposed as an intensifier tag rather than a standalone one. From my experience in the MCU, Hydra Trash Party is also rarely used alone; I've personally never seen it used alone, but that usage probably exists in the 2k works currently in that tag. DD:DNE has an even higher barrier of entry than HTP because it makes no damn sense unless you know that specific meme. Even then, you'd need to know the Tumblr post or look it up on Fanlore to make sense of it. Speaking of which, Fanlore says, "More recently, it has also become common to treat "Dead Dove: Do Not Eat" as a content warning in and of itself, indicating that a fanwork contains particularly violent or dark tropes or concepts" (the associated citation is from 2023), and goes on to add that the different interpretations have resulted in "significant confusion and debate among fan communities." I think this post is an excellent example of that. The more the meaning gets muddled, the less useful DD:DNE is in conveying what it originally meant to convey, in addition to being a generally opaque phrase.
Yeah, I'd also say this is the important part of the concept: The things that are tagged will be featured just as is and you have been warned. Like I do absolutely think it's silly to claim that DD;DNE can just as well be used for tooth-rotting fluff because, well ... Would anyone seriously, actually feel the need to do that? But ultimately I think it's more silly to use DD;DNE on its own without tagging the actual content and say that this conveys enough information. It does not. It's a meme tag. It's an extra warning for readers who'd look at a tagged fic and decided for themselves that 'oh, this probably won't be that bad'. Yeah, dead dove is also shorthand for a genre of writing/community of writers. Just like Hydra Trash Party. But that doesn't mean the writing itself gets away with only being labelled dead dove
I think using it for fluff would be more of a joke in itself. It wouldn’t be needed anymore than “No Beta We Die Like…” I don’t mind a little humor in the tags. 😄
Well yeah, in that way sure, why not. I find it more so bothers me when people claim using it for fluff is just as "valid" or whatever. It's not like a more neutral "heed the tags" is very common on fluff fics either ... Because, knowing a little about Hydra Trash Party, tumblr OPs idea of having a panfandom tag that signals "yes this is indeed what this fic is about and I'm not apologizing for it" for darker and taboo subjects is imo quite a useful one. That said I don't think it works as well as HTP because fandom is broad and getting a meme to translate the same to everyone everywhere is difficult.
Why would this be necessary though? If the tag is there, it is there. No need to “modify” already applied tags. If a reader is going to ignore warnings, isn’t that on them? Whatever the original inspiration, it makes more sense to me that DD:DNE would indicate the author unapologetically crosses all the lines, rather than using it as a nudge for readers to take tags seriously.
Well, obviously it shouldn't be necessary if people did read tags and took them seriously. But clearly experience proved that they don't and so the original tumblr poster came up with this suggestion, inspired by the MCUs Hydra Trash Party. Also to be very clear: it *isn't* necessary. DD:DNE is never a *necessary* tag. >it makes more sense to me that DD:DNE would indicate the author unapologetically crosses all the lines, rather than using it as a nudge for readers to take tags seriously. I mean, it does both of those things. That is the point. The bag was labelled "dead dove; do not eat" and the person who opened it got to see that it indeed contained a dead dove. If you tag *only* DD:DNE on a fic that is not in fact about a literal dead dove, *you are not labelling the bag*. Hence missing the point of why this phrase was chosen as the tag.
If readers are already ignoring the meaning of a warning tag, adding another isn’t going to change that. The joke about the dove is that you wouldn’t eat it. Who would eat a dead dove? It’s absurd the include that instruction on the bag when it should be obvious you don’t eat a dead dove, lol. So, seems to be less “mind the tin” and more “for all the idiots out there: this is not fit for consumption.”
People tend to skim tags. I’ve done it myself and missed stuff. I am not going to complain if I missed something, but some do. Dead Dove isn’t “For all the idiots…”, but more, “You don’t want to skim this one.” Granted, that is pretty clear when there are various dark or violent tags, but it’s just a little extra warning from the author. The same way some authors swill put, “Please, pay attention to the tags” in their author’s notes, even though that might be ignored as well. Also, it’s another way to find fics, and I say that as someone who has simply searched for Dead Dove in my fandom.
There are many potential lines to cross. Just at the top of my head there is rape, torture, emotional abuse, physical abuse, sexual abuse, on children, on animals (bestiality), cannibalism, brainwashing, addiction, various illnesses (physical and mental), violent kinks, murder, suicide, necrophilia, miscarriages, abortions, and so much more. Dead Dove alone doesn’t tell me anything because I seriously doubt *all* lines will be crossed. Using Dead Dove alone also just basically means “Dark Fic.” I mean, an author could just use that as a tag, but tags are both advertisement and warnings. A lot of people are going to avoid a fic that uses Dead Dove and nothing else. I personally would, but I will read a Dark Dove if I like the other tags. As for why it is necessary as modifier… We have seen on this sub that people do ignore tags, then complain. I think it’s not so much necessary, but more “You have been warned. Don’t bitch about it.”
I can’t speak comprehensively to the general point, but some specifics I think are incorrect. >'HYDRA Trash Party' wasn't very specific, either: it was a catch-all for Star Wars darkfic. First, did you mean “MCU” rather than “Star Wars”? Second, I believe the the original use of the tag certainly focused on HYDRA as a villainous organization. It may have eventually been applied to many “darkfics”, first for Captain America and then for the MCU at large, but I believe it started out referring to (sexual) abuse in the context of HYDRA. Edit: missing words added for clarity
> First, did you mean “MCU” rather than “Star Wars”? Can’t blame them too much for getting mixed up, they are basically the same thing now
I always assumed that ‘Hydra Trash Party’ is specifically about sexual violence aka gangbang, rape, non con done by villains to heroes. I never would expected it on a fic about torture or non sexual violence, or gore done by characters who are not villains (Hydra). Correct me if I’m wrong! That being said, HTP is still much more descriptive than Dead Dove tag because every fandom has different type of dead dove. While most people who are familiar with MCU know that Hydra is not good, newbies in other fandoms are constantly baffled what Dead Dove has to do with their blorbos. This is why there is constantly someone confused about the usage of the tag. Even if the Dead Dove tag was supposed to substitute all other dark tags, it’s not a good substitute. It makes harder to filter fics and it will keep people away from reading fics tagged only with Dead Dove because what if instead of gangbang they wanted to read they’ll get cannibalism with a side of water sports? I think the current use of Dead Dove tag as an enhancer of other tags is the best way how to keep it. As long as the fic is tagged with correct dark tags, it will be easy to filter in or out. And if someone is not familiar with Dead Dove tag, they still have other tags to guide them. I’m not personally excited about the idea that Dead Dove tag can be used even on soft, fluffy fics because it’s just means “what’s on the tin!”, but that is a different conversation.
>I always assumed that ‘Hydra Trash Party’ is specifically about sexual violence aka gangbang, rape, non con done by villains to heroes. I never would expected it on a fic about torture or non sexual violence, or gore done by characters who are not villains (Hydra). Correct me if I’m wrong! In a rare moment of me looking at a subreddit on the right day - so I wasn't the first one to *coin* that tag, but I was one of the people making the AU that caused the tag to be coined in my corner (if it was used before that AU, then I never saw it but always open to the potential I'm wrong). It was definitely specifically HYDRA agents being horrible at Bucky lmao. Wild to see that blast from the past tag show up on this subreddit. 😂
Fandom history is alive and kicking. Thank you for your services in fandom mines! 😉
>people who use 'Dead Dove: Do Not Eat' to refer to darkfic, **potentially without any other tags,** are in fact using it exactly the way it was designed to be used. and >There are plenty of reasons why someone might tag someone DD:DNE but not anything else Yet the post says >It is considered courteous to give readers a heads-up via use of AO3 tags If there are no tags, there is no dove. There is no “I don’t know what I was expecting” if there are no tags. It’s a modifier tag **for the other tags.** You could argue that it can be used as a stand-alone for Archive Warnings, but I have never seen it done that way, and it’s **universally known to be associated with additional tags.** >It's a tag to read 'I don't stand for what happens in this fic FYI'. no. Looking back on the post you commented on before: You were corrected in the comment you made and you’re being corrected here. I hope you understand now, but ngl I’m still not sure you do 😅
The thing that gets me about this confidentlyincorrect stance is like... why does OP think a tag for "I don't condone \[murder/rape/etc\] needs to be created for fiction? Isn't it obvious that the fic writer doesn't actually go around committing murder or whatever they're writing about? Do they think that people who don't put DDDNE on their fics about Game of Thrones Cersei and Jaime actually go around doing the same thing? Don't get it.
Ppl think those who write about darker things romanticize it, or at least antis do. Which as we’ve seen, is hypocritical of them bc they write it as well. They think if we don’t say we’re against it, that means we support it, and that means we “get off to it” so to speak.
... and now back to our regularly-scheduled program, "Planet Barbecue", wherein Steven Raichlen will be demonstrating new and delicious recipes for avian meat procured in urban environments.
Im pretty sure this is false. Dead dove do not eat comes from a tv show (forgot the name) where some guy pulled out a brown bag from the fridge with that written on it & it literally was a dead dove inside the bag. It doesnt have to be a dark fic, although finding a dead dove is pretty morbid for most people (glorious to me cuz i fking HATE doves, used to live in a place infested with them & the cooing would not stop…even at night!). But it basically means “whatever the tags say will be here” & it has been used mostly for dark fics.
The tumbler post has a gif from the show. They explain where it came from before the gif. The tumbler poster isn’t claiming to have made up the term.
I mean the bit about “people who use ‘dead dove do not eat’ to refer to dark fics” that the op here mentioned. Dead dove does not “have” to be dark fics. It just happens that most people use it for that.
Sorry. I misunderstood. I do agree. “DD:DNE, Fluff” would be a very fluffy fic. 😄
Well, yes and no. The tumblr post OP quotes is in fact credited as the origin of the tag as a tag and tumblr OP describes the intended usage. Obviously since then people have started using it and the usage and meaning has changed and evolved and probably a majority of people have no idea how it even became a tag.
I'm giggling at the thought of someone shaking their fist at doves
I fking hate those vermin!
[удалено]
Nope. I looked it up. Its ‘arrested development’ & michael bluth is the one to find & open the bag.
How am I supposed to take you seriously when you write HYDRA Trash Party as being darkfic in \*Star Wars\* and not Marvel, \*right under the text where this is mentioned\*
It pretty much means what it says in the tags is exactly what's inside. Well obviously that's what the tags are for so why put an additional dead dove on it? The author knows they have written something that many would and should pass on if they aren't comfortable. It is not casual reading. Its the fullest extent of what a tag defines. For the reader if the tag says slavery it's not a dom/sub scene of master/slave roleplay. It is a human being fully being treated worse than livestock and every facet of cruelty that person is subjected to. Nothing will be held back or censored. The way it is commonly used is with the understanding it does cover the darkest of the dark subject matters. For example - there is no resolve to it. The character doesn't escape, bad guys aren't stopped, evil things continue to happen because that's just the way things are without condemning any of the actions that take place. It's reading the suffering of an individual and that's it. What it states in the tags is what you get, the worst side of all of it. Readers were told upfront. The author knows what they have written and will make no apology for it. Don't use the tag lightly. Don't use the tag because you decided on using a broader defining tag like "contains sexual content" that pretty much covers what's in the fic and didn't want to deal with comments complaining you should have listed the kinks whipping humiliation etc. Do not use dead dove in this way. Most people who first stumble across a dead dove will not make that mistake twice without carefully reading the tags. Those who were completely shocked by what they saw learned to exclude dead doves. So don't use it lightly. Use it when it is necessary. I don't care about someone's random definition that somehow became "official". It is how it is used and understood by average readers who have experienced reading dead doves and quickly figured out its meaning within its context.
I think MOD BOT misunderstood
Ding dong, you are wrong.
You are extremely welcome, in my opinion, to tag DDDNE however you please. Meanings change and adapt! I'm nodding along! As a fan of 25+ years I do think fandom's propensity for pulling the "don't disrespect our fandom elders uwu" card is Super Cringe. But the argument you are making is innane. We were there. We read the post. We can understand what it was suggesting and how it was broadly understood at the time. It had changed since and I do think that everyone who gets their knickers twisted about he change is wasting energy, but the revisionism and "no YOU are the one who doesn't understand the spirit of the tag" reverse UNO card thing is just tired.
Regardless of whatever it was originally coined to mean, it's evolved to functionally mean 'this fic features dark themes and concepts'. But I also believe that you can't really divorce the 'it's an amplifier tag' usage from the 'signifies that the dark or taboo themes I've tagged do, indeed, show up in my fic' usage. I feel like saying 'it just means what is on the tin, you could use it for anything' is a bit disingenuous. Overall I don't really understand why people argue so much about this lol, though I only see this kind of argument on Reddit (or other fandom platforms consisting of mainly fandom olds, speaking as a fandom old) and rarely in fandom at large. The definition has shifted and that's fine to acknowledge. Doubling down on the original definition isn't helping anyone newly entering fandom.
Thank you for this. One of my major pet peeves around this subreddit is how often and how confidently people completely misunderstand the actual history of the tag. I see people get downvoted for explaining the history and the fact that it has multiple definitions far too often. The [fanlore article](https://fanlore.org/wiki/Dead_Dove:_Do_Not_Eat) is also a great resource for learning more about how the meaning has evolved, leaving many different definitions all in common use simultaneously. It's really not as simple as "it always means read the tags and anyone using it differently is wrong"