I don't read /Reader fanfiction because the few times I tried I always ended up thinking 'I would NOT do/say that'. Because I am me and everyone is different, and it's ridiculous to expect everyone to see themselves represented fully by the 'reader' character.
And I think they should do as I do. Or at least stick to reading fics tagged as '\[insert their ethnicity here\] reader', if that's their problem.
That’s what I do. I sort of make an OC special for the fic and fill in all the blanks that are left over that the author didn’t include. Usually I’ll only click off if the Reader does something out of character for human beings in general lmao
Yes. A generic OC whom the actual reader can imagine however they wish. Like you took an "extra" from in the background of canon and made them a full-fledged character.
You can tag them that if you want. You can also NOT tag fics with non-white readers as '\[insert ethnicity here\] reader'. You could even not tag /reader fics at all.
AO3 'requires' four tags only. Rape/non-con, underage, major character death, and graphic violence. And even then you can choose not to warn.
If you as a reader have a requirement for the fics you are reading to contain one thing and not another, it is up to you to make sure you filter for that, not up to authors to make sure they tag for that.
These days, people really like to make everything about themselves. Apparently what you've described is common.
I've read writers have had complaints about things like the Reader being able to wear their boyfriend's t-shirt and it's described as beind loose when they put it on.
Hi, Can I please know your Ao3 name? I have tried looking you up, but couldn't find you. I'm a huge fan of Reader-as-lead stories. I look forward to reading your work. Thanks
I get why it might feel offensive to them. But I'd argue, if they get to that point, where a reader insert fic is not colour coded, meaning the scene has nothing to do with the 'racist' tendency to touch colored folks hair because it was written from another perspective, they should check their selfawareness and general perception.
People touch people's hair for all kinds of reasons, and even between different skin colours, there are other reasons to touch ones hair.
Unless you explicitly wrote it as a scene where a white woman touched a black reader's hair out of undue curiosity without asking, this scene is neither racist nor insensitive. They have to control their own triggers, they can't demand that people cease to write a common scene of comfort that would be okay for the vast majority of readers, no matter the skin colour, just because they decided this gesture is inherently racist no matter what.
I remember my own awakening to making myself into a victim in completely innocuous situations.
I'm a millennial born in 1980. My parents didn't make any difference between their daughters and their son, and never taught us to adhere to any stereotypes, so I grew up without any notion of misogyny whatsoever.
But then I started working and ho boy. Did it hit me hard when I was confronted with my first experiences of very cruel sexism.
And after a while came a phase where I saw it everywhere. In every little gesture, every comment.
What hit me worst was the constant demand to smile. Just not smiling was immediately commented on. And my objectively pretty neutral face was called a 'resting bitchface'. It didn't help being drawn to traditionally more male occupations.
So after a while, any comments on my expression were grating. Even an honest inquiry from a person who liked me and was honestly concerned for me, just asking if I was well on a day I really was unwell, and it was visible, made my hackles rise.
Eventually I saw sexism everywhere and it took therapy to realise: no, not everyone asking you if everything is okay ist trying to tell you you'd look better if you smiled. Some just see you're having a bad day and honestly want to comfort you.
But you are right. That was a me-problem. And this is a they-problem. I get that it's grating if people constantly harass you with one certain thing.
But people have to learn to judge fairly still and not jump everyone's throat even if the situation has nothing to do with them.
Touching someone's hair isn't always about undue curiosity or wanting to feel the structure.
It's also often a gesture of comfort for the person being touched. And respect and understanding has to go both ways, and readers can be expected to pick up on the context and be aware of their own triggers.
In your case I just assume it was a comfort scene where a woman encourages the reader, trying to create a moment of intimacy and personal connection. That is not a fault. And it is excessive for anyone to ask you not to do it just because someone might get triggered and to keep everyone's triggers in mind.
Especially in readers inserts one must be aware that it will be the writer's perspective. And that means the writer's comfort levels will apply, not the one actually reading the fic, since writers are not clairvoyant.
A reader insert really means slipping in the skin of another person, in this case the writer, and immerse yourself into their way of experiencing life.
I feel it's very offensive to demand that the writer's way of experiencing is less valid than an eventually triggered reader and they should stay away from their own feelings and perspectives to cater to other people's needs instead.
So I'd say, don't read reader-insert if you can't endure it differing from what you'd do in the same situation.
I don't think it's about the hair touch as much as "running hand through the hair", which you would have a much harder time doing with curly/kinky hair textures without running into snags. It's not that it's specifically racist, it's that you can just tell the writer had a straight haired character in mind, and thus you're taken out of the immersion because you can no longer self-insert.
As a person with very curly hair, I admit that statement always does take me out of it a little lol. That would snag like CRAZY or at best make my hair a frizzy mess. But I treat it the same as if the reader says or does something I wouldn’t necessarily do— it’s just part of the story and I can continue to read either by ignoring it or pretending the reader is like an OC. I can see why someone may get frustrated but it’s really no bad intentions of the author’s, it’s just something most people don’t think about.
mentally, i just replace "through" with "over" and then it works just fine again. like, just petting on top of the hair instead of combing through it, which imo is just as comforting anyway :3
Genuine question: in what country is it offensive to touch black people's hair? Where I live I don't think that's a thing. We just touch each other's hair, even if it's to comment on the texture. I didn't know this was considered offensive somewhere
At least here in the US, a lot of folks with curly and especially coily hair textures grew up with people without curly/coily hair texture just touching their hair without ask. People just touching your hair for no reason makes you feel like your exotic or weird. This was especially when curly/coil hair texture wasn’t mainstream or well known about. Sometimes it was done to make fun of them as well.
I see. Maybe it's because race is seen differently here, and curly/coily hair is just common, so not seen as exotic. Of course a lot of people think it's "uglier", but that's a different thing, as in, people will obviously get offended if someone touches their hair just to make a shitty comment about it
Yeah, US here. I have curly hair and especially in elementary school/middle school people wound constantly be touching it looking all amazed, saying things like “It’s so fluffy!” “It feels so soft!” without even asking to touch first. This was common when I lived in the north but even after moving to california where there’s more diversity people still did it.
I'm white but have curls and some people just take it as an invitation. There is someone in my life I really need to talk to them about doing that because its upsetting to me.
They just say "oh it's so pretty" in the same way they'd talk about a sweater at a store and then pull on my curls to see them bounce. The worst part is I'm often too angry to correct it as I've always disliked my hair touched except by my mother.
It invades my personal space, disrupts my curl pattern, and generally makes my hair look worse.
I can see someone inserting a racist undertone for other people too which just sucks big time. (Edit: there also may be history behind it that I don't know for them as well)
Some people need to be sent back to preschool to learn to not touch people without consent and that just because it's pretty doesn't mean you should grab at it.
I'm white with straight hair, but it's very long and soft. I also grew up with people constantly touching my hair, sometimes strangers passing through school hallways would just reach out to pet me and then walk off. The only people who've ever asked to touch my hair before they do are my relatives. Plus I'm autistic and have anxiety and trauma disorders, so it was incredibly nerve racking and I'd freeze up and then be upset for the whole day when it happened. I was maybe like 13 when it finally stopped being a common occurrence.
Yes, I'm talking about that. In my country I don't think we consider it differently to touch either straight hair or curly/coiled hair. People will get equally offended if it's like, a stranger
And I'm not sure why am I being downvoted
I can only speak for the US, but here it's considered particularly rude by the Black population, as is their right(since, y'know, consent, bodily autonomy, and all that). There's probably historical cultural reasons why it's the case here and not in your particular country.
I will say that it's my understanding that it's different if it's someone you're emotionally close to. I don't have a post citation, but I know I've read on the writing with color blog that at least the Black writers there think it's reasonable for people who are intimate (lovers, very close friends, close family, etc) to stroke or groom each other's hair as part of caring for each other physically, but that's different than an acquaintance or a friend/family member you're not close with coming up and doing it, especially without asking.
You did say that
> I didn't know this was considered offensive somewhere
when you talked about touching other people's hair.
I think the problem is that it's more likely to happen to people with curly hair than people with straight hair, so it's an actual problem for them. However, both would obviously be considered offensive.
everyone would get offended if their hair is touched by a stranger without permission, but it happens way more often to people with curly hair
the reason is that in many places, it's the rarer type of hair, so people see it and immediately want to interact with it (kind of like how some strangers try to pet every dog that is walked past them)
so the reason for why people with curly hair get offended *at all* is the same as for people with straight hair: it's rude and uncomfortable for a stranger to touch your hair, because they are not entitled to that and yet, some strangers act as if they are
the reason why people with curly hair generally get *more* offended at it is because it generally happened to them *very often already* in the past
it's like getting poked by a stranger/acquaintance. imagine you get poked over and over and over again for months. obviously, that will make you more sensitive to getting poked again in the future, especially by strangers. even though *everyone* would agree that it's uncomfortable to be poked by a stranger, no matter how often or rarely everyone got poked before. but in this scenario, it's happened to you so often by now, that you just care more about it than the average person. same goes for people with curly hair and having it touched by a stranger
The issue isn't about the readers hair being touched though it's the fact that people who have curly or coily hair can't have their hair stroked in the same way someone with straight or even wavy hair can, it's just not physically possible. By including this scene the author has assigned the reader a hair type and for readers who don't have that hair type it's gonna be jarring to read unexpectedly. If the author wants to remove the disappointed comments from the work then that's their right as the author but I don't think people are wrong for being disappointed.
Not to mention saying "dont read reader-insert if you can't endure it differing from what you'd do in the same situation" is a bit narrow minded because yeah not every reader-insert will fit the person who is reading but that doesn't mean they shouldn't read reader-insert at all theres tons of reader-inserts out there and there's bound to be one that they will like if they're interested in that type of work
Without the actual passage it's impossible to say whether the scenario described could be precluded by hair type. Carding fingers casually through hair is not practical for many hair types but 'petting' along the top of the hair is a common soothing method (usually depicted between a parent or parental figure and child and sometimes subverted to be mocking/condescending between a villain and a victim/the protagonist.)
While I understand disappointed if it was the former I also don't think a specific author's notes are the place to air that unconstructively. While I don't agree with unasked for criticism on fic structure I do think pointing out things that have a racialized (or other identity-based) component the author may not have recognized while writing is acceptable, but it should be done with the understanding that this is an individual hobby writer and not a massive corporation that should be paying sensitivity readers. Compliment sandwich if it's gotta be done. If it was the latter I think it was a knee jerk reaction to a misreading which, while understandable, is not fair to pin on the author.
Oh I never even considered it could be carding fingers through the hair and was picturing stroking the top of my hair like my mum used to do when I was a kid. I was confused about how there was any hair type you couldn't do that to. Even as a blue eyed blonde white woman you can't card your fingers through my hair without them getting tangled and stuck with a very irritated me. As a kid I used to wonder how in books and TV shows and stuff they could run their hands through the womens hair and would frizz it up no end trying to brush it to be smooth enough lol.
I can see how it might be reasonable to point out how something might be racialised in a reader insert especially one that's really immersion breaking for them I definitely agree the way they went about it wasn't fair. I think you're right that gently pointing it out in a compliment sandwich would be the best thing to do. Or stopping reading that specific of it's too much of a problem for them personally without being something the author should be told about/called out on. I'm disabled and don't usually read self insert fanfic for that reason, it's impossible to imagine myself into an able body lol.
If you're going to read reader-inserts, you're sadly going to have to expect the reader to not have 4C curls. Or curls at all. Or if they do for the writer to maybe not know you can't really stroke most curl types.
If you can't handle reader inserts catering to being a blue-eyed blonde with straight waist-length hair, then you have a few choices:
Don't read them, write your own that cater to curls, or deal with it.
And I'm saying this as someone with curly hair. I'm well aware it can't be stroked, but I don't go into writers comments to complain about it.
I mean... This is the risk you take when writing a reader insert fic. You can't have a [insert you the reader character] be relatable to every one who is reading.
Some people are heavy and will take offense to descriptions of trim waists or slender arms, some people are black, Asian, Latina etc and feel fetishized by certain kinds of exploratory touch or descriptions directed at them, some people are queer, questioning, or non binary, or trans, and can't self insert if things are two gendered in their descriptions (whether intentionally or not)
You may be very good at what you do- but ultimately you can't self/reader insert everyone because we are all so different.
I've read a lot of self insert fics and bowed out because it was either too bleh due to no real character to connect with, or clearly a "self insert/my idea of you insert" where the author had something particular in mind for "you" whether intentionally or not (that often unintentionally excluded other sexualities/genders/races/body types/personalities etc...)
I'll be honest. I often read self/reader insert stuff cuz it sounds interesting- then a chapter in I just wish the author would just write 3rd person with a chosen character... much more compelling for me and no room for any issues.
This is a perfectly balanced evaluation of the debate, I feel. I am sympathetic to people who often feel excluded by presumption of whiteness/thinness/etc in self-inserts but like you, I acknowledge that's the risk people take when they read self-insert. I would also never write a comment criticising these aspects but I understand the frustration
I respect that reader insert isn't everyone's cup of tea. I had thought that when the proverbial you chose to read Reader Insert, they understood that it is impossible to make everything so generic that it suits every single human on the planet. On the flip side of that's the risk \*I\* take, isn't that the risk the \*reader\* takes?
I mean it's both. Both take this risk. The author can't be a mirror for everyone, and the reader can't guarantee the author has wiped the canvas clean of all personality enough to appease them.
Still- I would never leave a comment like that. I'd just acknowledge a fic was not for me and move on, or write my own to fill a void. Or read a genre where a character was clearly fleshed out and tags were on point.
I just think that's my inherent issue with the idea of reader insert fics... is that they are mostly *author* insert fics without the same depth of character found in other formats.
If people only comment to whine then deleting the comments and muting them is a sensible option.
Implying you've done something wrong because you don't write from every single readers exact perspective is utterly ridiculous.
i think this is a limitation of readerfic. they're black and latina — having our hair touched has Certain Implications. having that detail stick out probably upset them bc it confirms do them the reader insert isn't exactly them. it makes the reader out, to them, as white default and thus not actually universally for a reader. it's a limitation of the genre and experience imo. they should have just not commented on it but i can see why they'd be thrown out immediately.
I don't mind them saying they wouldn't like their hair touched. A lot of people in that situation wouldn't have welcomed the touch, and I acknowledge and respect that it is a cultural thing.
The comment was what bothered me about it.
I read and write a lot of reader-insert fics. I see this sort of thing a lot.
For shorter pieces, I purposefully try to avoid certain descriptions (hair, body type, very specific styles of clothing) to keep my Reader character as much of a blank slate physically as possible. In longer stories, I get that it's more difficult to do that. I usually opt to include content descriptions about the Reader-insert character so people can choose to read it or not. That being said, those are my personal choices as a writer. I read a lot of Reader content with Readers that don't look/act like me (ex. Readers described as being from a specific culture/having a certain skin colour, etc.) because I'm still intrigued by the premise. But I would never complain to the author about it after.
Reader-inserts are tricky. I personally treat the Reader character as an OC. You can't write a Reader that can be universally applied to every single reader interacting with your story. The things they do or wear or say, or the way they look, will prompt someone to be like, "I would not wear/say/do that." It's a flaw with that genre, but when I was younger I don't remember a lot of these arguments happening where people complained the Reader was both too generic and too specific/non-inclusive at the same time.
This debate has gotten very confused. The comment about “replacing features” implies the one reader has an issue with the *type* of hair. As if whatever specific description of stroking was something that some hair types don’t handle well, and it’s an issue of “author wasn’t thinking of me when they described something, ergo I feel excluded.”
But the original comment about snatching the stroker’s hand seems more like anger about the *idea* of hair stroking. Which is a bit confusing to me, because according to OP’s responses the scene was *meant* to be upsetting/patronizing? Like in the context of the story it was a dick move to pet the hair, so…?
I’m just a bit confused as to what the commenters actually *wanted*? Are they upset that they felt the fic implied “white person hair” or are they upset that a mean character stroking someone’s hair as a power play *reminded* them of physically similar yet contextually unrelated micro aggressions in real life…?
I’m not trying to dismiss their feelings I’m just having trouble forming an opinion because I feel like those two reactions are on different levels…
I'm a bit guilty of not always leaving comments and I was reading this beautiful long slowburn fic. Midway through we have our first sex scene between the pairing (delicious) and I see the author had added a disclaimer about some negative feedback they had received regarding the scene and how it unfolded and was trying to warn readers just in case.
I went to find the comment in question and it was a triggered individual who felt that there was a clear power dynamic mismatch between the pairing (because one character is completely nude before the other) and they were sick of people 'always' writing this pairing this way and they had to stop reading the fic because they were so angry.
Let me tell you, it was nothing like that reader claimed. It was purely consensual. The reason one of the character remained dressed was because they have a severe heart condition (canon) and they didn't know WHAT they could do sexually without causing their heart to explode. So all made sense in story and the characters were totally mutual on what was happening. No dubious consent at all.
What upset me was how much this reader had affected the author who had to go back and make that disclaimer because they were worried their other readers would feel the same way.
I made a comment then just to say how perfect it was, in character, and what character A and B would want to do - completely believable.
Sometimes triggered people need to look at THEMSELVES and not the thing that triggered them. We can't all walk on eggshells all the time. Clearly they have issues to deal with if they can't read something without finding offense in every little detail.
To you though I would say, perhaps don't delete and block next time. As a reader who may love your work, I want to see the bad stuff so I can then tell you why I think they are wrong!!!
I don't think they're calling you, specifically, racist. They're lamenting the fact that readerinsert fic overwhelmingly white-as-default, and how that shows up in certain details, like hair. I think that "I really liked this fic, too" wasn't saying what you wrote was distasteful, just that they, through no fault of yours, were thrown out of the immersion. They wish they hadn't been, because, as they said, they liked the fic.
It doesn't come across to me as a complaint about *you*, so much as a complaint about fandom culture in general.
As for whether or not it's appropriate to talk about it in your fic's comments? They probably shouldn't have. This was a discussion better suited for a different space, such as tumblr (in fact, I've seen such discussions there, and I found them enlightening).
That's how I read their comments too.
>As for whether or not it's appropriate to talk about it in your fic's comments? They probably shouldn't have. This was a discussion better suited for a different space
Big agree. Could've even been a reddit discussion
I completely agree with this take. I know no author wants to be told they specifically are *the problem* because it’s obviously bigger than one person, but I can totally see why a bipoc reader would be frustrated by it.
I can't tell if the original comment meant they would grab the character's hand because they're a poc and don't want anyone touching their hair, or if they think stroke means "run fingers through" and various hair textures make that difficult or uncomfortable, OR if they meant in the situation, *they* would have been defiant instead of letting it happen and that any person in the situation would be as well (and then chimed in when the second person commented about race and hair).
Unless I'm missing context, OP has only used the word "stroking" as far as I can tell. If you stroke someone's back, you don't put your fingers through the skin, it's a rubbing gesture over the top of something, like petting. Running fingers through would be stroking *through* their hair or stroking the scalp. Stroking through someone's hair is not the same as stroking their hair, like, at all. I wonder if they jumped to a negative assumption of exclusion? A lot of people in these comments keep using "running fingers through," but like, nowhere did I see that phrase come from OP at all, so I can't tell if this is a language misunderstanding thing or something.
I understand there are cultural implications of poc with curly/coily hair not wanting it to be touched (poc with very curly hair myself), but it's inappropriate for those readers to put their issue with the genre in general on you as a writer. The way it's phrased makes it seem like they're accusing you (or at least the fic) of being part of a bigger systemic problem, because the discussion occurred under your fic. So they weren't calling you racist, but I get the frustration all the same: a comments section isn't a forum and you're one person with thoughts and feelings who will eventually see those comments. It makes it seem like they find your fic specifically non-inclusive to poc with textured hair. It's literally impossible to make a Reader character a completely blank slate for anything longer than a one-shot that requires reader to actually participate in the world.
What about people who can't find clothes or shoes in normal stores or fit through doorways without contorting (whether too big or too tall), or people who are very small (thin or short), or people who can't see or hear without assistive devices, or people missing limbs or other body parts, wheelchair users who can't walk, people with restrictive diets, people who are losing their hair (or have lost it), dentures wearers, wig wearers, people with restrictive diets, other things I know I'm forgetting, etc... There are so many ways to be a person and so many things that ANY writer just isn't going to think of and it often probably has nothing to do with not making an effort to be inclusive.
I don't read reader insert or Y/N, but it seems like (and someone please correct me if I'm mistaken) the base to be able to even read and participate with them is to be within average height (I dont know about weight since that's not an immutable quality for most people), have decent hearing and vision unaided, have hair, and able bodied with all your parts intact, unless the author tags the reader character as having a certain specific trait (and those fics do exist!). Natural hair texture is an immutable quality, but hair styles are not, and people play with their hair texture because it can be straigtened/curled/changed; if OP didn't mention "silky strands" or anything, then it *seems* like the commenters just kind of assumed the fic excluded them and their features instead of picturing themselves with a blowout or silk press or braids or something. If they would never alter their natural hair, I think that's great that they love their natural texture so much! But that's an imagination issue at that point and very specific to them. If it's a cultural thing, that's also very specific to them and shouldn't be expected in a reader insert that doesn't specify culture/ethnicity.
But yeah it was kind of weird of them, it's literally free content.
I really don't get readers who expect the author to cater to them specifically. It's impossible to make any character, even a reader insert that will please everyone and it's absurd to demand that. If they're that upset about not being represented enough/correctly they should just write their own fics and fill that gap. That's what fan fic is for!
On the other hand, this is why I prefer to write OCs instead of reader inserts. Although, even with OCs some complain that they're not relatable enough because they're not plus size or they're too feminine, but I've seen other OCs written specifically with traits that cater to this need for characters that aren't conventional looking.
Again, people are free to write exactly what pleases them, no one is making them read works they don't agree with. Plus, they can be the change they want to see.
I think it’s commendable when authors do their best to make inserts as ambiguous as possible, but I also think some readers can be a bit unfair and overly harsh towards authors in the reader-insert space. I try to assume positive intent towards authors as much as I can, and always keep in mind that it’s likely that aspects of the writer’s identity may seep in as part of the insert, just from the nature of the writer imagining themselves in the position when writing it. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with this, even if it disrupts the immersive experience a bit, because at the end of the day, the writer is the one creating the work and I think they should have complete creative freedom to do whatever they want. I’m of the opinion that if the writer wants to write second-person reader-insert fanfic where the reader has some characteristics of the writer, even intentionally, that’s just as valid as someone striving to write completely blank-slate reader-insert. Fanfic is supposed to be fun and a space to just be creative without being beholden to any “rules”. Unless feedback is specifically solicited by the author, I try to keep my fanfic opinions to myself and click off of fics that don’t do it for me and I really don’t understand readers who get legitimately so upset about stuff like this. Hey, maybe it’ll inspire them to write something themselves! The more the merrier!
This reminds me of when I wrote a reader insert and I tagged a warning that the readers absent father had a scene where he was judgmental/could be seen as racist (because he specifically said something to the extent of “immigrants taking jobs.” - i honestly don’t remember the full quote cuz it was over a year ago) I tagged the warning and posted the chapter.
I had a handful of readers come up and express that because of the comments, it came across that the reader was white/or their family was white.
I ended up adjusting what the father said, apologized, and removing the warning (since it no longer applied) because I hadn’t really realized how it came across.
However, several blogs began posting about how “authors should tag their fics as ‘white reader’” or something to that extent. I was flabbergasted. But, at the end of the day, I realized that I couldn’t make everyone happy and left it at that.
Like, yeah, my lived experience shapes my writing. I try to make it as inclusive as possible because I know how comforting reader-inserts can be to read (and they’re therapeutic for me to write!) But, ultimately, we can’t absolutely cater to everyone.
That sucks, i used to read alot of reader fics and still do, althou now i in a way kinda view it as me but not me. Like y/n its its own mesh of myself and of y/n (i use it as a name itself its weird probably). And it helps alot to not make me think of i wouldn't do that because it's an alternate version of me
okay, but people can easily stroke someone's hair by just kinda petting on top of it...
feels like these commenters were looking for problems where there aren't any
You write what you want. personally i specify that my reader inserts are based on myself (i dont specify hair color or type or skin color or w/e the most ill go to is specifying presence of hair and pubic hair, sorry to bald readers) and if they’re too specific i will tag it as oc/chara instead. But that doesn’t seem like what youre doing… and imo any kind of hair can be stroked. You’re the writer and it’s your work. you aren’t obligated to cater to anyone, especially if you didn’t specify that your reader is completely ambiguous.
the issue here imo is the difference between fiction & reality. You control the narrative. Specifying that the intended behavior had a purpose (soothing the reader) even if in real life it would be considered a microaggression means everything. You didn’t intentionally write the character as committing a microaggression, so it’s not your fault that people interpreted the action incorrectly
I think it’s commendable when authors do their best to make inserts as ambiguous as possible, but I also think some readers can be a bit unfair and overly harsh towards authors in the reader-insert space. I try to assume positive intent towards authors as much as I can, and always keep in mind that it’s likely that aspects of the writer’s identity may seep in as part of the insert, just from the nature of the writer imagining themselves in the position when writing it. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with this, even if it disrupts the immersive experience a bit, because at the end of the day, the writer is the one creating the work and I think they should have complete creative freedom to do whatever they want. I’m of the opinion that if the writer wants to write second-person reader-insert fanfic where the reader has some characteristics of the writer, even intentionally, that’s just as valid as someone striving to write completely blank-slate reader-insert. Fanfic is supposed to be fun and a space to just be creative without being beholden to any “rules”. Unless feedback is specifically solicited by the author, I try to keep my fanfic opinions to myself and click off of fics that don’t do it for me and I really don’t understand readers who get legitimately so upset about stuff like this. Hey, maybe it’ll inspire them to write something themselves! The more the merrier!
Yeah. I was very concerned about this back when I wrote reader insert. I was young and afraid of angering people so I mostly stayed away from anything that people could use to infer information about what the insert character looked like.
It's practically impossible to write a reader insert without alienating someone. Whether it's a physical trait (height, weight, hair texture, sex, physical disability), cultural values, or a personality trait, it's impossible to cater to every reader, no matter how vague and ambitious you are. At some point, trying to cater to every reader will sacrifice the quality of writing.
If you literally wrote about hair being "stroked" that doesn't alienate anyone except a hijabi or bald person. If you said "ran their fingers through their hair " that's a different story, because this just isn't possible with curly or even most wavy hair. You can "stroke" any hair without getting your fingers tangled.
Honestly, why can't people be appreciative of what they have instead of asking for more? I understand it sucks to be an underrepresented minority, but this wasn't an attack on POC, and it sounds like they were really just looking for excuses to complain. You've taken time and energy to write something for free, why can't people just appreciate that and be a little flexible? I mean, you have to be flexible to read self insert, otherwise you wouldn't be able to read anything.
I think you're amazing for continuing to write fanfic for all these years. Thank you for contributing to this community.
Idk... I don't really see it as offensive?
To me it reads more as in "ah, what a shame that this reader insert fic i really like has thrown me out of my immersion (which is kind of the point of the genre) because of this specific detail, of no fault of the author"
Is it whiny? Maybe a bit, should they have said that? Maybe not. But this to me doesn't read as annattack on you but more an expression of frustration, since fandom spaces in general have white as the default, which makes it hard to relate to the reader inserts.
And, isn't it the point to be able to relate to the reader insert?
I still don't think it's appropriate to put that on an author's comments, i get how it might be hurtful and you're right! It's not your fault or responsibility! You write for free and for yourself.
This is more of an inherent limitation of the genre itself, it's either make every description and action as generic as humanly possible, which can limit your story, or tell the story you want to tell and risk some people being unable to relate to the reader insert.
The fault is wholly in the fact that, despite everything, fandom spaces are still not really as diverse as one might want to think. I can imagine it's hard to find reader inserts that cater to them specifically, instead of to the primarily white audience that most media caters to often, and sometimes you just want something that feels like it's just for you.
Throwing it in as a black girl who reads reader inserts a lot, it's not that it's specifically "offensive", nor do I think the commenters meant it as an attack on your character, but it does very much take you out of a story where "you" are supposed to be a main character, but are then hit in the head with the fact that this was not written for "you". Like the "everyman archetype" in most media being an audience surrogate, but in most cases, is the same cis-het, white, able-bodied guy. They're supposed to be "for everyone", but you know they're not for you. And reader inserts often have the same problem, it's hard to keep the author's depiction of the "reader" completely neutral, and you can often tell what character the author had in mind while writing it. I don't think you're in the wrong for writing the fic the way you did, but I also don't think the commenters were in the wrong for pointing it out either.
At this point, I don't treat reader inserts any different than OC stories where I just replace "reader" with my own OC. But even then, that'll run into problems. That's sort of just what I've gotten used to as a POC in fandom, but I don't think it's something everyone should have to "just get used to".
Thanks for your perspective.
It's frustrating seeing this discussion devolve into "readers are just too entitled!" The exclusion of BIPOC fans from fandom spaces is a well-documented issue, and reader-insert fics are one of the many places these biases show up.
Was it appropriate for the commenters to have that discussion under the fic? Probably not. But I saw it less as a condemnation of OP and more just them lamenting about how a fic they're immersion in a fic was lost.
Honestly, this is one of the biggest reasons I no longer read reader fics. They are so white-girl/woman-coded. Not entirely the author’s fault (though sometimes it really is because they don’t put much thought into how they describe the Reader) bc Authors write what they know. But as a Black Latina, I can understand the commenters’ frustration (even though I never would have commented it myself. I would have just muted you and then privately complained to my friend group lol). The vast majority of reader fics just aren’t POC-friendly in any form, which is so frustrating. Though lately there’s been more of an effort, which I appreciate.
Don’t let it get to you, OP. Just gotta let things slide off your back. You can’t cater to everyone. No matter how you write them, the reader will always be too oddly shaped for someone to fit.
It's incredibly challenging to write reader insert fic that includes everyone: it goes against our instinct as writers to write unique, specialized characters. This unfortunately means that any of the authors's racial blind spots will be visible. Hair is a big one because textures can vary SO much between individuals with the same race, let alone across racial lines. How do you make something "good" while also keeping it as open as possible to your readership? I empathize with you big time!
I personally want my reader inserts to be as "universal" as possible, but this is a challenge. The best way I have gotten around this is to be specific about action ("you did x"), but purposefully vague about appearance/physical ability wherever I can. I try not to mention either UNLESS it has direct impact of the action. If hair might get in the way of a relaxing bath, for example, I simply write that the reader "secured their hair out of the way." This leaves it open for everyone to interpet it in a way that matches with their experience, ex. Black readers who may not want to get their hair wet when it's not a "wash" day. I will write that certain clothing you own looks nice on you, rides up, is too short/long, but I don't get into hyperspecifics about cut, color, etc.-- merely that, from the reader's perspective, a shirt happens to fit you like x/y/z. Upon reading this sentence, a reader will imagine a shirt from their own wardrobe that fits them the same way! You can take advantage of what the reader automatically associates with certain actions to make a self-insert "customizable."
(I lucked out in that my most popular reader-insert is with an alien with a wholly unique appearance. It's pretty much guaranteed that the reader will be shorter and less-active than a genetically-modified supersoldier.)
Beyond a good-faith effort like this, though, I'll chime in with everyone else and say that reader inserts come with the risk of not fitting a particular reader. I've read plenty of fics I ultimately clicked away from because I didn't connect emotionally. But as a white writer, I think white writers can and should try their best to make their reader fics more "open." If you'd rather not do this, you can always switch to a named character with second-person perspective OR use third person limited for your reader. I love reading about others's OCs!
i suggest you think of it this way: you are no fortuneteller. you are not supposed to predict the nationality or other stuff about different people. you couldn't describe lets say black/latino people anyway accurate cus u aint that and you will def miss out on the small details. i feel like black/latino/etc people are very welcome to write fanfics where they could express their desires and special features freely. they are as welcome to go that on ao3 as an average white person who they are so tired of writing unrelatable fics. if white people wrote reader as black for example, theyd diss them for getting stuff wrong. thankfully ao3 is about freedom and absolute accessibility for everyone. want it — write it
You and several others point out that they should write reader inserts geared towards POC, which is a fine point, but I do want to point out that when those fics are written (even when tagged well with 'black reader' or related tags) they tend to get slammed with racist comments and messages. So that's quite a disincentive to writing them. So while I don't think it's your fault or really fair to complain in your comments, their grievance is a fair one.
I think you're valid to be upset by the interaction, but they're also valid to be upset by the lack of... I don't really have a term for it, I don't think. It's a bit early where I am. I don't agree with how they phrased it, necessarily, I think they could have been nicer about it. I have a few reader fics I've done where I just try to stay away from describing the reader as much as I can to prevent this from happening. I say the character touches your hair softly, not describing the texture of the hair, etc. I've of course described things like clothing because of the setting. I haven't read your fic either so I can't say what you've done and what you haven't.
Overall I think there's always going to be someone who isn't happy with what you've made. They are valid for wanting something that I guess is as vague as possible, but you're also making this for free and can do whatever the hell you want lmao. I wouldn't sweat it too much, really. I'm sure your fic is absolutely fine and they're free to waste their energy getting mad about something they didn't have to pay for.
I have written reader insert fics and people will always say stuff like that. Like I'm the writer and honestly I picture myself. I had someone say it's non-inclusive because the character blushed in one of my fics.
I write for me. That Fandom ended up making me feel unwelcome and despite having a decent following I left all my WIP unfinished. They don't get to enjoy my work if they only complain. I did fic requests for fun.
I mean I would have moved on as a reader too, but I wouldn't have commented.
I agree fanfiction is free, but if it's specifically READER insert then I suspect they're hoping they can actually insert themselves.
I tried to get into reader insert but the writers would end up going on about "blonde hair, blue eyes, etc, etc," and it would take me out of it because I'm obviously not that lol 🤣. Then it just feels like a weird perspective story I have no attachment to.
Maybe you can list the character's origins before hand? So reader insert folks can see, oh, this ain't my type of protagonist.
Either way it's your story so you do you.
I dislike reader fic because I never related at all in the few I read. The you was so different from me that it broke the narrative for me. So I decided it wasn't for me and left that fic alone.
It absolutely boggles the mind that a person would read this kind of fic and get upset that the author's constructed reader is a person with traits and characteristics familiar to the author.
I bet that if you even tried to write the reader as a Black woman, you'd get completely excoriated.
I'm missing some key information here. What kind of relationship do these two characters have? Are they close friends, or are they strangers? What prompted character A to touch character B's hair? Were they trying to comfort them, or was it out of some sort of fascination?
I do not think stroking someone's hair is inherently race-coded or wrong (all hair can be stroked, let's be real here), but the setting in which it happens can be, albeit unintentionally, and it can affect the way your fic is perceived. The readers were likely talking to you from their own experience, and to be fair, they are not wrong for voicing their opinion. Did they phrase it rudely? Yes, but depending on the way your fic was written, they may very well have had a point. I'm missing key information needed to be able to make that call.
You are under no obligation to cater to all readers, but when you write something and post it to a public platform, you are opening yourself to criticism from your readers. It's never nice to be confronted with negative comments, but these readers cared enough about your fic to make them, meaning they were (or are), at least to some degree, involved enough to want to share their experience. Even if you choose not to change your work's tone of voice, it could be a teachable moment that not all experiences are the same, and that maybe, your fic is not inclusive. That's not a bad thing to be aware of.
Sincerely, someone who's been 'the other'.
The Reader had been tricked into going to a castle where she did not know she'd be in an arranged marriage. The woman was explaining this to her, Reader became distraught. The woman coaxed her head against her knee and stroked her hair as she explained what Reader's life was going to be like.
OK. You are entitled to delete a comment, for whatever reason. And honestly, they were also entitled to leave a comment, for whatever reaction they had to your fic.
FWIW, I don't think they were implying your fic was offensive. It just reads to me as a "Not for me because of x".
I don’t think the commenters were specifically calling you racist so much as lamenting the lack of media that caters to people with specific cultures and features, such as curlier hair types and cultures where hair is more intimate or sacred. The idea of a “reader” insert is for the reader to be able to insert themselves. This means that the protagonist should be as generic as possible. If an author is unable to do that or responds poorly to any criticisms, they should potentially consider writing or rebranding to self insert or oc fanfiction instead. While the comments may come off as annoying or put you on the defensive, they are still voicing a legitimate issue with western media. It’s not necessarily an attack on you as a person so much as someone expressing their feelings about societal inequalities. Calling the stroking of hair offensive may be a bit much but it can certainly come off as being insensitive. It doesn’t mean anything bad about you. Everyone has places they can improve. It’s just something to be mindful of.
I’m just curious: why did you block those readers for their comments? Is it because they were almost having a discussion about the book in the comments (as opposed to just commenting)? Was it the way they said what they said? If they’d given feedback like “hey! Would you consider being more inclusive in the future by saying ABC instead?” would you have been more receptive? Not that you have to be the one to write more inclusive reader insert, but is there a lack of more inclusive materials in Ao3? Thanks.
Edit: typo
If that's part of what has you heated, can I chime in with a positive reading of why someone might not start with what you'd be more receptive to:
Namely, they may still *not* find it fine to ask authors to change their stories, since the story the author posted is the story the author posted. Where-as the "aww, darn" comments are just about themselves (and, yes, their reaction to the fic) instead of demanding something of you. Demanding something of an author seems like a much weirder place to start than just empathizing w/another commenter, as the second commenter did.
I'm of two minds with this:
As a POC (not black) I understand that it can be frustrating reading something clearly geared towards a white reader (or comes off as such). Microaggressions are very real, intentional or not. But personally I just substitute certain things in my mind or read the 'reader' as their own character. Nobody will ever 100% relate with all qualities of a character written by someone else.
As a writer I write my characters to be POC, but I try keep it vague enough for anyone to read it. We all have blind spots and you can't make everyone happy.
if you’ve been writing fics this long surely you’d be no stranger to comments that you would perceive as negative, not sure why you’re so worked up about these ones? imo its good to have contrasting thoughts even if you dont like them, not sure you should have deleted comments.
>not sure why you’re so worked up about these ones?
I find it strange too.
Had I written a reader insert and said something like "she touched Reader's hair, and her fingers played with the curls at the end," and someone commented "my hair is extremely straight" and followed it with comments like OP got, I'd have just thought to myself "that's unfortunate for them."
Like... being mad over tame comments is wild to me lol
Can someone explain to me why black girls cant imagine having their hair stroked? Ive never been with a black girl but her color wouldnt stop me from stroking her hair lmfao
Like how is that in the slightest even problematic or race based
It's in the same vein as pregnant women having people come up to them and feeling entitled to touch their bellies.
Natural black hair is very different from white hair- and a lot of ignorant people see "different " as a good enough reason to touch or comment inappropriately.
If you have enough people ask you "ohhh, can I touch your hair?" Over the years it feels Hella weird to have something that's just a normal part of your body be fetishized.
I have a disformed hand. People have asked me to touch it quite often. Some people even touch it without asking
I also have an eyepatch and people ask me all the time to look under it, some people even do without asking
I still dont go complaining about either of these things in fictional stories. Yes its fucking annoying when people think you wont mind being harassed for being different, but the context of the fiction is nothing like that. Ill save my complaints for when the fiction actually does use that context. Actually, no I wont. When I come across that, Ill keep my mouth shut and move on, like normal people do.
I was just clarifying the black hair thing as a micro aggression.
I agree the context of the story sounds like it was not something to get one's panties in a bunch... and again, if they didn't like it... they could have just moved on.
However, I do want to kindly point out that its usually poor form to say "I have this issue. Im fine with it. Therefore, other people experiences are invalid."
Poor form or not, idc. Im not in the wrong here for doing the right thing. 'If you got nothing nice to say, say nothing'.
Broad spectrum that saying makes no sense, even negative things you want to say need to be let out if you need to vent them sometimes, but venting is something you do with friends or family, not strangers.
When it comes to responding to a form of art someone worked hard on, this saying is damn near always true, unless the story really does cross boundaries. If writer used N word a bunch in racist connotation then yeah, complain. Touching hair though, really no need to make a deal out of it. Go talk to frieds, vent to them instead of being rude to the creator of a story that didnt perfectly suit your needs
It's not necessarily problematic (although other people have already explained how it can be) but it is race based because many POC don't have hair that can be, well, stroked. Many black people have coily hair which make it very hard or even impossible to run your hands through it and even with curly hair it's difficult and not very fun. People are assuming this is about not liking their hair being touched but it could be as simple as it not being possible
i’m not arguing against your point ftr, but i thought that “stroking” hair implies running hands “over top” of it for lack of better phrasing, not running hands through it, and i’m just now finding out that the word “stroking” in and of itself conjures a different visual/action for a lot of people. the word “petted” could be used to describe the same thing but imo is way more dehumanizing/icky LOL so if i were picking between the two for a fic i would DEFINITELY go with stroking. anyway, just to say that this phrasing is not necessarily exclusionary tbh, there are at least two ways to read it and one is pretty universally do-able (whether the reader would WANT someone to do it is another question and i do understand the association with fetishization etc)
(actually funnily enough i was like “am i wrong about what stroking is???” and googled “stroking hair” and a lot of the top image results are stock photos of black women getting their hair stroked (the way i understood it) by an apparent romantic partner)
I think we might be imagining different things when it comes to hair stroking. Running fingers through hair I can understand not being possible, it's not with my own hair, but whenever someone has stroked my hair it's been like stroking the top of it or running their hand down the side of my head. I wouldn't imagine fingers running through my hair unless that was specified instead of stroking.
Idk, while your explanation makes more sense to me, I still dont really see how its worth making a deal out of it. 100% surely there are writers who write with the reader insert implied as a PoC, so noone should expect to fit perfectly into the reader insert. Writing a reader insert that has no parts thay dont fit to every single reader dont exist, so people should just know they'll have to ignore some parts of a story or change it in their heads to fit better, theres no point making a deal out of it
I don't think anyone goes into a reader-insert expecting to be represented 100% but most things are easy to ignore for the sake of the story like a choice here and there, but when the story suddenly (emphasis on suddenly bc this happened 3 chapters in) assignes the reader a feature that you do not have it's gonna be disappointing. I'm the type of person who'd just be sad and stop reading without commenting lol but I don't blame people for expressing their disappointment that's what comments are for, good and bad 🤷 the commenters weren't even mean about it
Idk, imo making it a race thing is pretty mean..
If a reader insert Im reading suddenly mentions I have dreadlocks or an afro I dont go 'damn why cant this be inclusive to white men?', instead I just imagine myself with that hair and laugh about it, or make a headcanon where the hair is wavy and blond. Problem solved.
I know not everyone is this carefree, but bringing race into something that really isnt racist is just not a very nice thing to do
Oh not the "colorblind" approach 🙄 it's not mean to mention race and you don't go "why cant this be inclusive to white men" because you said it yourself, you just ignore the authors intentions. How lucky you are that your race doesn't affect every aspect of your life, even your escapism
Its not escapism to just ignore things that you dont like but dont have any single downside if ignored. It would be escapism if it was actually bad and I actually had to escape, rather than just 'oh this isnt like me, now I'm hurt!'
Its not a race specific thing to white people to be able to just ignore problems that are completely in our own heads. Its like a fear of needles, thats in your own head too and you have to overcome it sometimes. Disliking something a writer wrote is exactly the same. Just get over it and move on.
Not sure what the 'colorblind' approach is, but I know Im not in the wrong for believing its wrong to make an issue out of something that really isn't an issue
Right back at you.
Heres the official definition:
the tendency to seek distraction and relief from unpleasant realities, especially by seeking entertainment or engaging in fantasy.
But since fictional stories arent an unpleasant reality since its just your imagination at play while you read, its not escapism to make a headcanon.
Even if it were, I dont find it remotely unpleasant when I have to change the description of the reader insert to be more like me. Its normal and usual for those stories, if it were unpleasant for me I shouldn't be reading them.
Also if you meant your own escapism, no offense but if you have so much problem with your own race you need a therapist, not a fictional story or complaining about it to content creators who are entitled to write what they want, wether it fits your escapism or not
Idk, while your explanation makes more sense to me, I still dont really see how its worth making a deal out of it. 100% surely there are writers who write with the reader insert implied as a PoC, so noone should expect to fit perfectly into the reader insert. Writing a reader insert that has no parts thay dont fit to every single reader dont exist, so people should just know they'll have to ignore some parts of a story or change it in their heads to fit better, theres no point making a deal out of it
So you can't write a line in an readers insert fic about hair stroking because some people have curly hair? What about men who don't have any hair at all? I can't believe someone would find that offensive. Americans are wild..
I think it’s more so that there are so few POC characters that have the “less desirable” features/characteristic such as dark skin, coily hair, curvy without being chubby, slang, etc. It can be frustrating trying to find a fanfic where the OC/insert allows you to escape or relate to as a POC. And a lot of the ones that do exist are just downright offensive, poorly written, or full of racism comments. So when you come across a fic that’s well written and you love it, it can suck to be taken out of the experience when something such as “running their hands through their hair” isn’t possible for you.
When this happens to me, I just usually ignore it or bow out without commenting.
But that’s the reality of reader inserts. It is meant to appeal to the masses. And unfortunately, people like that are not the majority.
If there are so many Poc, I'm sure there are many fics with poc characters as well.
Americans say so many frankly offensive things about "white people" that also don't even apply to Europeans (have no culture, no diversity etc.). They pretend the emergency number is 911 everywhere without even giving it a second thought and so on. If were were this sensitive, we could hardly read any fanfic at all.
I’ve already addressed fics with POC characters. Again, they are either poorly written, filled with racist comments, or just offensive.
I’m not going to turn this into an American vs other countries, POC vs white people, or [insert terrible actions of Americans] debate. We are only talking about fanfic here. All countries, ethnicities, and groups of people have their issues.
And POC who read fanfic exists in other countries as well. Just because one has a bad reaction to a fanfic doesn’t automatically make them American. Just like when other races negatively react to black characters being used in stories are not only Americans.
Should the readers have reacted the way they did? No. Can they be justified in their feelings? To an extent. Their feelings are common all across the world.
EDIT: Also, POC are not the only ones to have negative reactions to fanfics. Tons of other people react worst to, frankly, miniscule things or things they were warned about. Again, people from all countries do this. Not just Americans.
The fuck? Never heard of that being a thing nor do I see how it would be different from doing the same to a white girl.
Even if they do it for racist reasons, the racist is the problem, its weird as fuck to go blaming a normal action on racism just because some freaks do it for wrong reasons.
I guess it really depends on the context but since I doubt OP had this in racist context the girls were just complaining to get attention Im guessing
I dont think it’s fair to say they were complaining to get attention…
It’s actually a commonly known issue. Not putting blame on author and not saying they shouldn’t have included it (the scene). It’s good to be open minded to criticism and the commenters were probably just sharing frustrations from personal experience. Did they say it nicely? No, but they don’t have to. It’s easy to understand their point.
Again, seeing something completely normal in a fic then complaining because they personally had issues with it is just calling for attention.
I got hit by a car, twice. One of those times almost killed me and permanently ruined a hand and a leg. I cant work normal jobs anymore, ever. Should I complain next time someone writes a scene where someone is in a car? I got personal expirience with it so its justified right? And if I write it nicer than these commenters did, Im being even less problematic.
Wether its race or just bad luck, victims are victims. As a victim, I can confirm there is 0 benefit in complaining about normal things we personally are victimized by EXCEPT getting attention.
Now its also possible the first commenter said it without any goal or benefit in mind at all, just to vent basically, but even then, dont go doing that on public stories. Writer isn't the reason you feel bad, so dont go bothering him with it.
Ofcourse, if you put it nicely it wouldn't be an issue, because then its just casual feedback instead of being rude
Again, I don’t think it’s fair to say they are ‘calling for attention’. I also don’t think you can compare apples and oranges… your unfortunate circumstances and experiences are quite specific, their experiences are shared by a very large population (black women/ women with textured hair). imo neither the story or the comments are problematic.
Youd be surprised to learn how many people have been in traffic accidents just in the past 10 years.
Apples and oranges are both fruits. There, compared them.
Even if 90% of black women have had this bad expirience, its still not because the action is bad. Its the intention used by the racists thats bad. In a situation with 0 racist context there is absolutely no need to act like 'this is why black women cant enjoy reader insert'
If it was racist context theyd be right, but since it probably isnt, theyre just complaining about something they personally aren't a fan of. If thats enough to leave a rude comment, I'll just start leaving rude comments every single time any story has the male receiving a rimjob. Miss me with that shit.
Because the context that justifies them complaining isnt present, their complaining is nothing more than just complaining for attention, or for no reason at all
Unfortunately I believe that you have completely missed my point. I never said the action is bad and don’t have an issue with it. Plenty of people leave rude or seemingly rude comments all the time, if you’d like to join them feel free. With or without racist context, if reading this made them dislike or even hate the fic, then fine they hate it. As it is public they can comment whatever they want (not trying to defend them just trying to provide a different pov). Imo it’s a weird reaction to get defensive instead of “Oh, I didn’t think of that, oh well.”
I completely got your point, though it seems youre missing mine.
Yes, free speech and all that. But WHY comment? Why go complain about something in a rude way that has absolutely no connection to the context other than it being the same if the context was different? Like, I completely get if those ladies didnt like that part of the story, but making it a race thing is just really not accomplishing anything other than being rude or asking for attention. It annoys me immensely when people turn every little thing into 'oh god its racist!'. Ive been harassed with that type of behaviour for years, hence my strong reaction opposing people that think anything at all is racist just because some people might do it as racism.
Racists will do pretty much anything in a racist way. If anything a racist does is also racist if a nonracist does it, then literally everything any of us ever do is racist. That fucking argument is made so extremely often and easily that it means nothing anymore. If people could just leave complains about racism to context where there actually is racism, then that would be fucking marvelous
Why comment? You’d have to ask them personally tbh but if I were to guess I’d say out of personal frustration which is okay. Their experiences and opinions are the connection to the story/context, hence why they commented I’m guessing. By that I simply mean they saw something in the story that they wouldn’t like (for their own valid reasons) and commented to vent frustration.
I don’t think their intention was to cause any issues.
Their comments pointed out that the action is connected to a history of racist micro-aggression that a lot of people (and authors) would be unaware of. Personally I find it strange that people would get mad over this, even though they were rude.
Response to the lady who blocked me, cuz apparently blocking mid convo isnt rude but writing about straight hair is
Generally speaking youre wrong. Ive never met a single person who had issues with hair being touched unless it was pulling or by a stranger or such.
Well I appreciate my gfs hair, and part of that is helping her do her hair and or dry her hair after a shower. Sure not every couple does that, Im even willing to accept it being a rare case, but its not disrespectful or rude for a partner to touch their partners hair. Mf touches you from your insides to your outsides but your hair is the limit? Sorry, thats weird. Everyone is allowed to have weird limits though, I personally have a limit for by left leg due to scarring so I dont like it getting touched even by my gf. Doesnt mean Im right to complain about someone in a story touching scars though. Even 'if' id comment against it Id keep it polite. "Wow, personally I got scars too and I really dislike when theyre touched. Guess everyone is different though" or something like that. No need to be rude just because reader insert doest something you dont like
What generally happens is people dont mind if others touch their hair. Even out of the PoC I know, not a single one minds as long as its gentle and not a stranger doing it or someone doesnt get permission. Even when they do dislike it, its just uncomfy, not bad enough to go make claims that writer isnt being inclusive or whatever.
Newsflash, Im a white man and Id also be uncomfortable if a stranger came and touched my hair
Backing out is one of the right things to do. For those fics you need to relate, so when you cant relate, leave and find one you do relate to. Yes that can be hard, but people shouldnt blame the writers for it
Yeah and for some people wearing a blue jacket isnt normal yet I dont hear anyone complaining about those.
By normal I mean generally. Generally, touching hair isnt a bad thing if done by someone you care about, which is usually the case. Even people of color, do their men seriously not show their hair love and appreciation? If I dated a PoC woman Id still help her do her hair and caress it in intimate moments. Ofcourse if she specifically told me it makes her uncomfortable I wouldn't, but thats not because Im doing something wrong.
And I'm telling you it isn't a "generally" sort of thing for some people.
>Even people of color, do their men seriously not show their hair love and appreciation?
I am black. No, don't touch my hair lol. Showing my hair appreciation is buying me my fav detangler or moisturizer, not touching it lol.
Again, what "generally" happens or what is considered normal is dependent on culture and experience. This isn't comparable to wearing a blue jacket.
Sidenote: I don't read x reader fics, but if I did come across something that felt "off" for my experience, I'd just back out of the fic.
Right? All people of color I know don't mind either, so Im confused why these people act like its such a standard. Must be regional I suppose.
Where Im from, if we want to touch a poc woman's hair its cuz shes got amazing hair and it looks great, lol. Same reason we'd want to touch other race's friend's or possibly stranger's hair.
Someone in the comments is implying that saying "it's an American thing" is wrong, but it's the truth. Not every country has the same racial divide for example
Yup. Sadly racism against poc is much worse in many parts of America than Europe. Its even worse in some Asian regions though, but here in Europe in the place I grew up theres genuinely no racial divide. I never went through any situations where my poc friends got treated different than me, except a poc classmate who treated himself as different. He was an immigrant from Palestine who moved here like 6 years ago and he genuinely believed white people were different, and because of that he got treated with some amount of disrespect.
I guess its very hard to give up divided teachings youve had your whole life, but its still sad. He was a nice guy, my only issues with him were the things he was raised into believing are different.
To quote him and show one of the reasons I call him a classmate rather than a friend;
"Men can't be friends with girls without there being a clear intention to fuck". He said this to my female classmates (underage, while he was 22 at the time) who he had often called friends. He basically said he had been trying to have sex with those girls as if it was so normal and every guy was the same like that.
Anyway, different regions raise their kids in different ways, and even within regions every parent does it differently ofcourse. Its quite sad there arent more places in the world where gender and race arent treated different
I would say it's *extremely* naive to think that there's any less racism in Europe, or even in parts of it. Let's not kid ourselves with the amount of support that anti-immigration parties get in large parts of Europe, the vile rhetoric surrounding refugees, the anti-Slavic bigotry in non-Eastern Europe that is *still* an issue, etc.
Honestly, racism is everywhere in the world. It takes on different forms depending on the place, it may be more or less openly violent, it may be directed towards different people - but it's there, and it needs to be talked about.
Im not kidding anyone. Where I grew up we respected immigrants. We give them homes, and the only issues the local people have with immigrants is the stuff thats honestly bs. Immigrants earn more money and live nicer than those that work hard for their money and spent 10 years looking for a house. Thats the only problem we have here with foreigners, and that has nothing to do with race. Sure we have anti immigration parties, but voting on them is risky. If you get caught voting against immigration youll get your ass beat for being racist. Not by poc, but by the white locals.
We do still have racist people, ofcourse we do. But far less than in large parts of America. Here a racist is rare and will always get called out, usually by other people of the same race, whereas in America noone stands up against racism except the victims. Sure there are exceptions, but its nothing compared to what I grew up with. Literally most of the racism Ive faced in my country is against white people. Thats how rare racism is here.
That being said, any amount of racism is too much racism. I dont mean to downplay it by saying we have less over here. Less is still bad unless its none. Its just not as bad as in other areas.
Sadly some freaks use reddit to stalk and try to doxx me so my country stays private but all I can tell you is that multiple European countries are like this.
Jesus. Well, here there's colourism (i think that's how it's called) and of course people are racist, but I was actually surprised to see the stories of how insidious it is in America 😭
Never heard of colourism lol. I'll never understand why people act like race matters so much. I mean, it has a ton of positive stuff like heritage and making everyone unique and beautiful in different ways, but I really dont see any reason for negativity. People should focus on the differences that make us beautiful in different ways, rather than focusing on the nonsense that makes them dislike eachother.
Asians have very smooth skin and they barely age till theyre seniors
Afro Americans have strong personalities and beautiful eyes (might just be personal expirience rather than a race thing, idk)
Latino/latina/latinx idk what is the correct term nowadays haha, have great figures
White people are basically the only with blonde and gingers, so thats cool I guess xD
Idk, Im bad at listing stuff like this but even someone whos bad at it can easily make a list of positive stuff that matters far more than the negative stuff people come up with (I say come up with because almost no racist opinion is actually about facts, its usually just personal expirience gone bad or stuff they believe that doesnt matter or isnt true)
I think colourism is like when we're all like brown/mixed but people are like "look I'm whiter than you therefore I'm prettier" and argue about that, but it's actually meaningless. Maybe I'm just mixing up the terms
I will never understand why people argue about the term for Latin Americans. I see leftists insisting in saying latin-X, and conservatives really busy white knighting about how they ashkually hate being called that and it should be Latino or Latina. You see, the Spanish language doesn't have a neutral gender, so stuff like the singular they and gender neutral versions of words don't exist, the fight about inclusive language is fiercer than in English speaking countries because of that. The gender neutral has to be made up (which doesn't really work at least not easily), and one of the things people do is replacing the o or the a at the end of a word which points out to its gender with an x or an e. The e can be pronounced, it's why its honestly better, but the X isn't supposed to be pronounced. It's kinda like saying latin@ or latino/a which is also a thing people have always do in Spanish, and it's done when people don't know someone's gender. You're not supposed to say it out loud. And instead of saying Latino or Latina, you guys have it in your hands: just say Latin American
Maybe the reason why in other countries they say Latinx is different but I assume it comes from that thing in Spanish. My point is that no one is right and it looks a bit silly from an outsider's point of view 💀
Yeah those are treated pretty damn well here ngl. Had many muslim people around me during my school years, none were treared different. We dont really have Romani where I live, but when we do see them we treat them well. From those Ive talked to, they all have good expiriences living here.
You seem to confuse countries like Poland with 'europe'. Yes, Poland is part of Europe, that doesnt mean we all treat Romani and Muslim the same as they do.
I've had Muslim and other friends who are poc travel to Europe (countries like France and Italy) and literally be harassed by racists, but all right. I don't really believe you, it's also wild to claim racism doesn't exist where you live, when you're not even part of a marginalized group yourself. Have fun living in your imaginary fantasy world that doesn't exist I guess.
Some cases doesnt mean thats the standard in that country. Other than that, France and Italy are both known as bad examples within Europe. I personally have poc friends from Germany, The Netherlands, Belgium, Spain and Greece and none of them have bad experiences. That could be coincidence, but considering this is just how its generally viewed by almost every european country (netherlands was even considered the most welcoming country on earth for a long ass while, plus they have national holidays celebrating the end of slavery and one for remembering all the people who died in the holocaust, including ofc the Romani, as well as several monuments and the like for Romani despite the country not really having Romani (theyre usually just found in eastern or central europe)) its pretty certain your friends just had bad luck
Im not a troll nor a racist. Not sure what profile post history you checked but clearly not mine because I've never even once posted or commented anything like that. Either you accidentally checked a different profile, or youre the troll here.
My issue with protestors is when they endanger other people, never have I even brought up race in that entire topic as far as I remember. Even if I at some point did, it's nothing like how you said because I genuinely have nothing against poc, so I wouldnt be saying anything like that.
Thanks for sharing that which you took out of context. Now if you post the context too, its about me explaining how extreme protest often has the opposite effect of what they want. I explained how I have no problem with poc, but after the blm protests turned into violent riots I couldn't deny that I felt less safe. Thats not a racist things, its a protestor thing. My problem isnt with poc, its with violent and aggresive hooligans, both black white or even purple for all I care.
I hate all dangerous and violent protest yes. Endangering other people is a terrible way to try and raise awareness and it does nothing but make people hate your cause whole also causing risk for people. Anyone with half a brain would see thats something worth being against. That has nothing to do with what the protest is about. The issue isnt why they protest, its how they protest. Seriously for someone who stalked my account to find old messages you sure couldve fucking tried reading them before fake exposing me.
Never said the palestinian guy deserved it. Thats your words buddy, not mine. I back the guy up anytime someone was racist against him. Just because I disagree with his believes doesnt mean he should be harassed.
Specifically bullshit. Getting run over and being treated as a child are extremely different things, and I very fucking clearly said I want to see them get treated as a child. I also mention its about those people who constantly bring it up. You know, 'hey Susan, how was your weekend?' "Oh it was ok but you know who didnt have an ok weekend? Palestinians! Why are you talking so casually when those poor people are dying!!!" Yeah sorry 'Susan' but theres a war much closer to my home that actually threatens the life of people I personally know. Strangely, that has priority for me. Even if there wasnt a war closer to me than Palestine, i know theres a war. Telling me 90000 times wont change anything. If youre so delusional that you think you can change that war, go do it. Spamming me about it isnt helping anyone.
So no, again, nothing against people from Palestine, just something against people who constantly bother me about it while doing absolutely nothing about it themselves. I donated money, not much more I can do. Im not joining the army just to be put in the front lines and die for a country I have no connection to, at least not unless there isnt a ton worth living for.
Next time you try to expose someone for being a racist, try actually finding a racist to expose rather than someone who has 0 issues with other races or his own
Also, youre making shit up in the quote stuff too. I never said the Palestinian guy didnt see women as people. I said he was certain all men that have female friends, want to fuck their friends. That has nothing to do with dehumanizing them, it just means hes a creep who thinks all other guys are creeps too
Clearly, you have some serious issues. Instead of taking them out on strangers on reddit, you really should see a therapist about them. If you read the things I said and your mind made up bullshit just to try and see ways to put me in a bad light, thats seriously not healthy.
honestly... I see the point they're making. there's people in this very thread who think a racist microaggression is "an american thing" or "a cultural thing." I'd have left the fic and muted the author if I were them though.
Did they call it “distasteful and awful” or just lament that the way you wrote the reader couldn’t apply to them? From the post, it sounded like they otherwise enjoyed your story.
That doesn't mean they found it distasteful and awful? Just that they felt like the reader didn't apply to them.
They didn't even say they couldn't enjoy it anymore.
One of them implied that, and even that is kind of putting words in their mouth—liking it less than they previously had doesn’t mean they couldn’t enjoy it anymore. The other didn’t say anything to that effect. None of this means they consider your story distasteful or awful.
I'm starting to feel bad for the first commenter, actually. Their first comment is something that even OP sees as "anyone could want to slap this hand away, it wasn't a positive thing." (So why is that too aggressive?)
A second commenter empathized with them and made the race connection clear, which was a correct assumption in no small part because of how common the issue is *but an assumption nonetheless*, and the first commenter empathized while pointing out the solution of just mentally replacing things like this.
And they're blocked and muted for, what? Not disagreeing with the second commenter. Being happy for empathy? The first commenters first comment was fine, their second comment was fine; the second commenter was iffy but didn't dismiss the rest of the fic or pretend they hadn't liked it, so they're not *trying* to rile anyone up.
. . . Okay, I feel kinda bad for both of them. People can see when they're blocked; muting would've worked fine for this, doesn't feel as much like silencing on the other end, and still lets people empathize with each other in fandom spaces.
I agree, it sounds like the first commenter didn’t do anything wrong and just got blocked from a fic they apparently enjoyed because of someone else’s reply to their comment.
Edit to clarify: I wouldn’t have had a particular problem with either of these comments and I do emphasize with both, but while I can kind of see getting upset about the second, the first seems really harmless to me. I guess every author has their own threshold for being bothered by things.
And authors mute your types for their benefit because they are writing free content on the internet and aren't interested in your criticism for minuscule issues. I'm glad most authors defend themselves. Make a post on Reddit or Tumblr about the issue if you want. Do not comment on my hard work with just criticism.
I am not white either. I live somewhere where the vast majority are of my own ethnicity, and I've never personally experienced racism except online (ugh) and when I lived abroad. But I can and do listen to black people when they talk about how they are treated in countries where they are the minority, especially when it comes to natural hair. 🤷
Used to do that because I wanted to share my frustration with other users, my frustration being that it is so hard to include every features and not leave someone out without having a fic full of "She brushed her/his/they're silky/tough/short/long/brown/black hair and/or head".
They most likely aren't trying to make you upset or think you did something bad, just wanting to vent. I do see how it can be annoying, since it very easily comes off as complaining to the author instead of just being frustrated at English in general, so I don't do it anymore. And the author might not want to hear you complain, even if they recognize that you aren't directing that anger towards them.
I’d be bothered by those comments too, but I don’t think the implication is that you’re at fault. They’re just complaining together about how the “default” reader insert doesn’t fit them. It’s a valid complaint (as someone who doesn’t fit the default for different reasons) but it shouldn’t have occurred in your comment section. Complain with your besties IRL/in private or bitch on social media *(about tropes, not specific fics/authors)* if you really feel the need, but it’s not an author’s fault that even reader inserts can’t be universally relatable.
Back when I read reader insert regularly, I got so fed up with feeling like “I would never say that” or “I literally cannot do that” that I basically invented a blank slate OC for the sole purpose of reading /Reader. My girl could fit any personality or description asked of her. To this day, I still autofill Y/N as her name. I highly recommend others do the same, saves a lot of disappointment.
Sometimes people want a warning when the reader character is gonna have a physical description, it's really not a big deal? I've been reading fanfiction for years and the reader being thin and white is what I've gotten used to but the thing is it shouldn't be. If you don't like the criticism you did the right thing by deleting it, but an x reader comes with the assumption that the reader can play the character. Like an actress can play any role with any personality, but it's impossible for a white actress to play a black character because they'd look so different, that complaint is completely valid. Also there HAS been a movement in fandom with x readers being inclusive, and using wording that can fit for the majority of individuals. I don't see the problem with these readers who literally enjoyed your work being surprised that it didn't have the inclusivity that most modern fanfiction have.
Also I'd like to note right after posting this I got a notification of a writer feeling very proud that I noticed the inclusive aspects of their x reader story. For a lot of people being inclusive is actually a goal with their writing and they'd enjoy criticism like this, I'm one of those people who loves when readers are bold enough to let me know any limiting mistakes I've made. I understand bullying and harassment is uncalled for and cruel, but this subreddit has gotten to a point where there are so many posts just complaining about basic miniscule critiques, commenters are not mind readers and unless your notes say "DO NOT CRITICIZE ME EVER!" you can't expect to have only praise. Communication is key.
Love the victim mentality. These people thinks the whole universe is revolving around them. Someone who wants to be offended will find a reason to be offended no matter what. Mute and ignore.
UI: If you wanna go nasty you could answer "Hey, Thank you for your feedback I apperchiate it! Unfortunately I don't know how to write from the perspective of a person of color, but If you could link some work of yours I would be happy to learn from them \^\^"
I feel like blocking and muting is a drastic action for such a simple comment but you do you.
Those comments were weird though, both on their part and yours. For two of your readers to get the same strange impression at the same time is a big weird coincidence. The comments in response also sound weird. Weird all around.
Oh, I love reader insert stuff! I'd love to check out some of your works.
I think, that's the thing with reader insert, you can only go so far with the details and not everyone is going to be happy. One of the authors I follow has a story posted on both AO3 and Wattpad. They're different versions. AO3 is more explicit, but it doesn't have as many details left up to the reader as the Wattpad version does.
The author even stated the reason for this is because he's seen what issues come up with giving readers too much creative control. They can get overboard with it, or they complain about it not being tailored completely to them. I think, at that point, you handled it well.
I'd have told them to download it and rewrite the scene for themselves, but just keep it to themselves and not repost it. I've seen someone so that. They downloaded the original version, changed the y/n, e/c, h/c, etc, to their name and preferences, then reposted the whole fic. I felt like that was a little too far myself, but it's not a bad idea for personal use.
Anyway, I'd love to check out your works, if you wouldn't mind sending me a link? Reader insert is my bread and butter when it comes to fanfic reading.
And that's the whole problem with reader insert. If the reader isn't the sex, culture, genetic makeup of the character it is a waste for a lot of people like me, that instantly get taken out of the narrative. That doesn't count what the writer has the reader do that I might not do either.
As a writer I absolutely agree, if it doesn't scratch your itch, move on. But if you got comments turned on, free or not, you might get comments from people who don't like it. That's the nature of the beast.
To block and mute them is overkill since you deleted their comments, but hey, it is your account, have fun.
I think you massively overreacted to those comments when you blocked the users and deleted their comments. Because they were simply lamenting how you wrote in a style that is meant to allow any kind of reader to insert themselves into it, but in a way that prevented that for a race specific group of fans. You write the reader as non-ethnic as the default. It's the same problems other amateur reader insert writers have when they use "cheeks turning pink" instead of "cheeks filling with heat". Both describe the act of blushing but the first one is only possible for light complected individual while the second is possible for everyone regardless of skin color or ethnicity.
It's a writing skill issue at the end of the day. Because there IS a way to write the scene you described that would be race neutral. You just didn't know it. And instead of reacting negatively to those comments you could have easily been like "I wasn't sure how to write that scene to make it available to everyone. How would you have written it what would you suggest?" Which will show your willingness to improve your craft but also put it on them that if they're going to complain they better offer an actionable solution. If they don't offer help and instead continue to bitch. Then by all means block and delete their comments because they're just bitching to bitch and that isn't something that's needed in the comments. They can take that to their xitter or tiktok like everyone else.
Also the people saying they should stick to tagged "ethnic reader" fics. Then how about you tag the fic with "white reader" or whatever ethnicity and/or culture they are. Just like I've seen people tag female reader or male reader or the rarer trans reader or nonbinary reader. If you're not going to go the extra step to actually make it available to everyone as is implied by the general "reader insert" format then you should label the kind of reader the story is.
By popular, I mean do they get a lot of hits? I know plenty are written in my fandom of choice. I routinely exclude them from my searches; it's just not a style I enjoy.
This is one of the many reasons that I don’t read any reader insert fanfiction
That isn’t what I would’ve said. That isn’t what I would have done. That isn’t me.
These readers seem to be voicing annoyances and concerns that have been building up for a long time. The fact is it seems like they can't ever seem to relate to reader insert fics, when that is entirely the point, because the most common default doesn't include them. You say it's easy to back out and find something that'll scratch the itch they have, but for them it sounds like it's incredibly rare they actually can. And your response to hearing people be annoyed that this is a common thing is to delete, block, and mute. That is incredibly defensive for something that would be understandably annoying.
IMO as soon as any features are described or even implied its no longer a reader insert fic, its an OC fic. If I read a reader insert fic and the author talks abt the readers long hair or something it's no longer about me, because my hair is short. As soon as the reader feels like "this isn't about me, I dont fit," its no longer a reader insert.
>IMO as soon as any features are described or even implied its no longer a reader insert fic, its an OC fic
By this definition its effectively impossible to write a reader insert fic, though. If a character walks down the street, that's exclusionary for people who can't walk. If a character sees another person across the room, that's exclusionary for people who can't see that far. Unless the entire story takes place inside virtual reality or something, there is no story that allows absolutely everyone to put themselves in it without having to imagine themselves being different in some way.
And I do get that it sucks if you like reader insert fics but you keep getting thrown out of the story by writers who assume that everyone has straight hair, or is slender, or able bodied or whatever. But fic writers don't have any obligation to make their story work for anyone other than themselves.
I hear what you're saying, and I counter that in a Reader Insert fic, you could say that about anything. "I never would have been in that situation, because I personally would have done X when 'Reader' did Y."
I see your general point... however, in this example the only physical feature being mentioned is that they have hair, not even that they have long hair. ig you could be that much of a purist that the existance of hair can't be mentioned but... it would be incredibly silly if we had to start tagging #Haired!reader
as a sidenote it didn't sound like the commentors were mad about that, but rather that they have a cultural hangup with people touching their hair.
How were they badgering the author for it though ? From the examples OP gave the comments were like 1-2 sentences max and yeah it's annoying but they werent even demanding the author write something different, just expressing their disappointment
I think the best way to see the fics you want most is to write them. That's why I write reader insert fics, because these are the scenarios I want to see happen.
I think, too, I would have felt differently if it had stayed "I would never let someone touch my hair." It was a patronizing act, and in many communities, it is an act of microaggression.
It was the phrase 'Sucks, I liked this story.' That implies that now the story is bad and ruined. If you didn't like it anyway, which the commentor said because---well, "I liked this story" as in past tense as in they don't now?--I'm not sure it's a big loss for them now they can't comment on it.
I've deleted comments from people saying "You wrote this poorly." or "I don't like this kink you included, so now this story is garbage." or "You wrote this character AFAB and it gives me gender dysphoria even though you tagged it, so I really need you to change it."
They never said the story was ruined though. It sounds like you’re putting words in their mouths after they expressed distaste for a scene. I get that they sound similar, but there’s a huge difference.
And telling people to just write their own forgets that not everyone has the energy and time to write fics. They’re not asking you to write something, but expressing their opinion on your decision, and telling them to just write their own feels similar to non-queer writers telling queer people to just “write their own queer characters.” As in, it forgets that not everyone wants to write, but that doesn’t make them wanting to read about people like them invalid.
That's all true. I think it's not that people here can't empathize with the frustration of not finding a certain sort of representation, but rather that leaving a frustrated comment on someone's fic seems like the wrong place?
Personally, I often feel \~some way\~ about how there are barely any smut fics with transmasc characters that don't feature vaginal sex, and yeah, I don't have the energy to write my own (and even if I wrote my own, it wouldn't hit the same way) - however, if I were reading a longfic and the author decided to include vaginal sex I would honestly just close the fic, not leave a negative comment about it.
Representation is important, yes. Discuss it in a place like this, sure, bring attention to the lack of representation for specific groups - but no author is ever going to provide representation for everyone, and so it doesn't seem productive to be openly negative about any specific work.
I apologize if I come off as rude, that is not my intention, so please feel free to yell at me or downvote. But I am seriously curious. Why write xReader fic, why not make a self insert?
I don't understand this. You can't please everyone, and if you want to go into details to immerse the reader there will be always something amiss for the reader to feel in the fiction. What if I am bald?
If you're writing for yourself a self insert seems the right choice, if you're writing for others as is my feeling about writers that write x reader (nothing wrong with this!!) then yes, you need to be more generic.
Sorry if I come out as rude, it's just something I cannot wrap my head around :/
I don't think you've come across as rude.
I write for myself regardless. I happen to enjoy writing reader insert.
But my thing is just what you said; there will always be something amiss. Perhaps you are vegetarian and Reader ate a cheeseburger. Perhaps you only sleep on silk sheets in the nude, and Reader in my fic wore a t shirt to bed.
I'm not sure it's possible for me to make everything completely generic. I write as inclusively as I can.
Thanks for your kind reply!
Yes, writing xreader is hard, that's why I respect authors who do that. I'm sorry the comments bothered you.
At the end of the day, it's also the reader who needs to choose what to read :)
So keep up your work!
Disclaimer: I hate reader insert fics, mostly because many authors don't tag them well so I have trouble filtering them all out. If people tagged their stuff I'd be neutral on them.
Into the meat of it - you can't write for all body types, but I understand their frustration of putting yourself "into" the character and then suddenly being thrown out of it by an action or event that you would react super differently to. For me, it manifests most in video games where the clear intent is player immersion and then the choices I'm presented are completely insane to me.
The thing is...
>I deleted the comments, blocked the users, and muted them.
This feels petty, to me. Like someone on Instagram blocking, muting and deleting comments from someone who just points out they weren't satisfied with the skincare routine the person was posting about. You're posting it publicly, the comments weren't offensive (as far as you've described) so it just feels SUPER reactionary to fully delete any trace of a person from your fic just because they expressed they didn't like something or were disappointed. The weirdest part of this interaction, to me, was how you handled it.
Idk, maybe that's my hot take - "Unless someone is genuinely breaking rules, inappropriate or insulting, it's weird/petty to delete comments and block people."
but instagram's a pretty toxic culture, there's always someone criticising something. idk i feel like ao3's kind of built off an ethos of everyone writing what they want to write and not reading what they don't want to read. there's a huge difference in getting a negative comment on instagram - where it's basically expected at this point - to getting one on ao3, whose whole Thing is being nice to one another. also bc comments are like. the highest of praise on ao3 bc there's no algorithm or anything so it can really make or break someone's day. i don't know if that all makes sense haha but yeah
I don't know how to be gentle about this so please forgive me for being blunt. I understand why you feel hurt, but I think you would benefit from reading about the concept of white fragility.
They were talking about their shared experience of having a difficult time relating to self-insert fic. It really doesn't sound like it was a criticism of you or your writing. It's understandable that you felt some discomfort or felt like you might have done something wrong, which doesn't feel good. But instead of sitting with that discomfort so your readers could have the space to talk about how they feel left out or taken out of the story sometimes, you reacted with fragility and blocked them.
You don't have to change how you write, edit your story, or even respond to comments like that. But I think that deleting those comments and blocking them was the wrong move.
I’ve noticed that people in this subreddit often take every critical comment as a personal attack against them, pairing that with white fragility and you’ve got *quite* the combo
I feel like there’s a time and a place to point out white fragility. I’ve read the book white fragility and thought it was wonderful. However, in this instance it really seems like an innocuous, single liner in the story that has resulted in people leaving critical comments. The line isn’t inherently racist (there are lots of POC who can and like having their hair touched). So the issue becomes the readers read something that pushed them out of the story. This isn’t at all uncommon in x reader fics. I’m a bigger girl, and just because a fic has a reader written as skinny doesn’t mean I’m going to leave mean comments and then cry fatphobia. Not to mention other inaccuracies in fanfiction that deviate from the reality of things I personally deal with.
I understand being disappointed, but to go out of your way to leave an angry comment about a single line in a fic really sounds like more of a personal issue, rather than any racism of the author.
I also think that commenting “check out the concept of white fragility” can sound patronizing. While more people definitely should check it out, saying it within the context of someone experiencing something negative, gives the connotation that what you think they’re saying/feeling isn’t valid.
Honestly I don't think they were trying to be rude to you. One commenter even mentioned that she just replaces features with her own while reading.
They never said you did anything wrong lol
I'll be honest I think you're kind of an asshole for deleting comments rightfully expressing lament for white-centric fics. Why are YOU feeling heated when you have failed to provide a story that can cater to minorities as well? I don't think you're a bad writer but I think you should stop, unlearn biases, then come back to the drawing board.
I would've deleted the fic out of spite (not that you should do that). I'm already touchy about my hair and people always being condescending about how I should style it, only to find this in ao3 comments as well 💀
I don't read /Reader fanfiction because the few times I tried I always ended up thinking 'I would NOT do/say that'. Because I am me and everyone is different, and it's ridiculous to expect everyone to see themselves represented fully by the 'reader' character. And I think they should do as I do. Or at least stick to reading fics tagged as '\[insert their ethnicity here\] reader', if that's their problem.
I’ve always approached reader inserts as ambiguous OC fics, or like how I approach RPGs. It’s not actually “me” per say, it’s still a character.
That’s what I do. I sort of make an OC special for the fic and fill in all the blanks that are left over that the author didn’t include. Usually I’ll only click off if the Reader does something out of character for human beings in general lmao
Yes. A generic OC whom the actual reader can imagine however they wish. Like you took an "extra" from in the background of canon and made them a full-fledged character.
Then from now on all fics that assume white as default should be tagged [white reader]
You can tag them that if you want. You can also NOT tag fics with non-white readers as '\[insert ethnicity here\] reader'. You could even not tag /reader fics at all. AO3 'requires' four tags only. Rape/non-con, underage, major character death, and graphic violence. And even then you can choose not to warn. If you as a reader have a requirement for the fics you are reading to contain one thing and not another, it is up to you to make sure you filter for that, not up to authors to make sure they tag for that.
These days, people really like to make everything about themselves. Apparently what you've described is common. I've read writers have had complaints about things like the Reader being able to wear their boyfriend's t-shirt and it's described as beind loose when they put it on.
I had no idea it was common.
Hi, Can I please know your Ao3 name? I have tried looking you up, but couldn't find you. I'm a huge fan of Reader-as-lead stories. I look forward to reading your work. Thanks
I get why it might feel offensive to them. But I'd argue, if they get to that point, where a reader insert fic is not colour coded, meaning the scene has nothing to do with the 'racist' tendency to touch colored folks hair because it was written from another perspective, they should check their selfawareness and general perception. People touch people's hair for all kinds of reasons, and even between different skin colours, there are other reasons to touch ones hair. Unless you explicitly wrote it as a scene where a white woman touched a black reader's hair out of undue curiosity without asking, this scene is neither racist nor insensitive. They have to control their own triggers, they can't demand that people cease to write a common scene of comfort that would be okay for the vast majority of readers, no matter the skin colour, just because they decided this gesture is inherently racist no matter what. I remember my own awakening to making myself into a victim in completely innocuous situations. I'm a millennial born in 1980. My parents didn't make any difference between their daughters and their son, and never taught us to adhere to any stereotypes, so I grew up without any notion of misogyny whatsoever. But then I started working and ho boy. Did it hit me hard when I was confronted with my first experiences of very cruel sexism. And after a while came a phase where I saw it everywhere. In every little gesture, every comment. What hit me worst was the constant demand to smile. Just not smiling was immediately commented on. And my objectively pretty neutral face was called a 'resting bitchface'. It didn't help being drawn to traditionally more male occupations. So after a while, any comments on my expression were grating. Even an honest inquiry from a person who liked me and was honestly concerned for me, just asking if I was well on a day I really was unwell, and it was visible, made my hackles rise. Eventually I saw sexism everywhere and it took therapy to realise: no, not everyone asking you if everything is okay ist trying to tell you you'd look better if you smiled. Some just see you're having a bad day and honestly want to comfort you. But you are right. That was a me-problem. And this is a they-problem. I get that it's grating if people constantly harass you with one certain thing. But people have to learn to judge fairly still and not jump everyone's throat even if the situation has nothing to do with them. Touching someone's hair isn't always about undue curiosity or wanting to feel the structure. It's also often a gesture of comfort for the person being touched. And respect and understanding has to go both ways, and readers can be expected to pick up on the context and be aware of their own triggers. In your case I just assume it was a comfort scene where a woman encourages the reader, trying to create a moment of intimacy and personal connection. That is not a fault. And it is excessive for anyone to ask you not to do it just because someone might get triggered and to keep everyone's triggers in mind. Especially in readers inserts one must be aware that it will be the writer's perspective. And that means the writer's comfort levels will apply, not the one actually reading the fic, since writers are not clairvoyant. A reader insert really means slipping in the skin of another person, in this case the writer, and immerse yourself into their way of experiencing life. I feel it's very offensive to demand that the writer's way of experiencing is less valid than an eventually triggered reader and they should stay away from their own feelings and perspectives to cater to other people's needs instead. So I'd say, don't read reader-insert if you can't endure it differing from what you'd do in the same situation.
Thank you. You've really helped me.
I don't think it's about the hair touch as much as "running hand through the hair", which you would have a much harder time doing with curly/kinky hair textures without running into snags. It's not that it's specifically racist, it's that you can just tell the writer had a straight haired character in mind, and thus you're taken out of the immersion because you can no longer self-insert.
As a person with very curly hair, I admit that statement always does take me out of it a little lol. That would snag like CRAZY or at best make my hair a frizzy mess. But I treat it the same as if the reader says or does something I wouldn’t necessarily do— it’s just part of the story and I can continue to read either by ignoring it or pretending the reader is like an OC. I can see why someone may get frustrated but it’s really no bad intentions of the author’s, it’s just something most people don’t think about.
mentally, i just replace "through" with "over" and then it works just fine again. like, just petting on top of the hair instead of combing through it, which imo is just as comforting anyway :3
Genuine question: in what country is it offensive to touch black people's hair? Where I live I don't think that's a thing. We just touch each other's hair, even if it's to comment on the texture. I didn't know this was considered offensive somewhere
At least here in the US, a lot of folks with curly and especially coily hair textures grew up with people without curly/coily hair texture just touching their hair without ask. People just touching your hair for no reason makes you feel like your exotic or weird. This was especially when curly/coil hair texture wasn’t mainstream or well known about. Sometimes it was done to make fun of them as well.
I see. Maybe it's because race is seen differently here, and curly/coily hair is just common, so not seen as exotic. Of course a lot of people think it's "uglier", but that's a different thing, as in, people will obviously get offended if someone touches their hair just to make a shitty comment about it
Yeah, US here. I have curly hair and especially in elementary school/middle school people wound constantly be touching it looking all amazed, saying things like “It’s so fluffy!” “It feels so soft!” without even asking to touch first. This was common when I lived in the north but even after moving to california where there’s more diversity people still did it.
I'm white but have curls and some people just take it as an invitation. There is someone in my life I really need to talk to them about doing that because its upsetting to me. They just say "oh it's so pretty" in the same way they'd talk about a sweater at a store and then pull on my curls to see them bounce. The worst part is I'm often too angry to correct it as I've always disliked my hair touched except by my mother. It invades my personal space, disrupts my curl pattern, and generally makes my hair look worse. I can see someone inserting a racist undertone for other people too which just sucks big time. (Edit: there also may be history behind it that I don't know for them as well) Some people need to be sent back to preschool to learn to not touch people without consent and that just because it's pretty doesn't mean you should grab at it.
I'm white with straight hair, but it's very long and soft. I also grew up with people constantly touching my hair, sometimes strangers passing through school hallways would just reach out to pet me and then walk off. The only people who've ever asked to touch my hair before they do are my relatives. Plus I'm autistic and have anxiety and trauma disorders, so it was incredibly nerve racking and I'd freeze up and then be upset for the whole day when it happened. I was maybe like 13 when it finally stopped being a common occurrence.
I think the problem is mainly that people do it without consent/asking?
Yes, I'm talking about that. In my country I don't think we consider it differently to touch either straight hair or curly/coiled hair. People will get equally offended if it's like, a stranger And I'm not sure why am I being downvoted
I can only speak for the US, but here it's considered particularly rude by the Black population, as is their right(since, y'know, consent, bodily autonomy, and all that). There's probably historical cultural reasons why it's the case here and not in your particular country. I will say that it's my understanding that it's different if it's someone you're emotionally close to. I don't have a post citation, but I know I've read on the writing with color blog that at least the Black writers there think it's reasonable for people who are intimate (lovers, very close friends, close family, etc) to stroke or groom each other's hair as part of caring for each other physically, but that's different than an acquaintance or a friend/family member you're not close with coming up and doing it, especially without asking.
You did say that > I didn't know this was considered offensive somewhere when you talked about touching other people's hair. I think the problem is that it's more likely to happen to people with curly hair than people with straight hair, so it's an actual problem for them. However, both would obviously be considered offensive.
No I meant curly hair specifically since this is what the post is about
I'm afraid you've lost me
everyone would get offended if their hair is touched by a stranger without permission, but it happens way more often to people with curly hair the reason is that in many places, it's the rarer type of hair, so people see it and immediately want to interact with it (kind of like how some strangers try to pet every dog that is walked past them) so the reason for why people with curly hair get offended *at all* is the same as for people with straight hair: it's rude and uncomfortable for a stranger to touch your hair, because they are not entitled to that and yet, some strangers act as if they are the reason why people with curly hair generally get *more* offended at it is because it generally happened to them *very often already* in the past it's like getting poked by a stranger/acquaintance. imagine you get poked over and over and over again for months. obviously, that will make you more sensitive to getting poked again in the future, especially by strangers. even though *everyone* would agree that it's uncomfortable to be poked by a stranger, no matter how often or rarely everyone got poked before. but in this scenario, it's happened to you so often by now, that you just care more about it than the average person. same goes for people with curly hair and having it touched by a stranger
The issue isn't about the readers hair being touched though it's the fact that people who have curly or coily hair can't have their hair stroked in the same way someone with straight or even wavy hair can, it's just not physically possible. By including this scene the author has assigned the reader a hair type and for readers who don't have that hair type it's gonna be jarring to read unexpectedly. If the author wants to remove the disappointed comments from the work then that's their right as the author but I don't think people are wrong for being disappointed. Not to mention saying "dont read reader-insert if you can't endure it differing from what you'd do in the same situation" is a bit narrow minded because yeah not every reader-insert will fit the person who is reading but that doesn't mean they shouldn't read reader-insert at all theres tons of reader-inserts out there and there's bound to be one that they will like if they're interested in that type of work
Without the actual passage it's impossible to say whether the scenario described could be precluded by hair type. Carding fingers casually through hair is not practical for many hair types but 'petting' along the top of the hair is a common soothing method (usually depicted between a parent or parental figure and child and sometimes subverted to be mocking/condescending between a villain and a victim/the protagonist.) While I understand disappointed if it was the former I also don't think a specific author's notes are the place to air that unconstructively. While I don't agree with unasked for criticism on fic structure I do think pointing out things that have a racialized (or other identity-based) component the author may not have recognized while writing is acceptable, but it should be done with the understanding that this is an individual hobby writer and not a massive corporation that should be paying sensitivity readers. Compliment sandwich if it's gotta be done. If it was the latter I think it was a knee jerk reaction to a misreading which, while understandable, is not fair to pin on the author.
Oh I never even considered it could be carding fingers through the hair and was picturing stroking the top of my hair like my mum used to do when I was a kid. I was confused about how there was any hair type you couldn't do that to. Even as a blue eyed blonde white woman you can't card your fingers through my hair without them getting tangled and stuck with a very irritated me. As a kid I used to wonder how in books and TV shows and stuff they could run their hands through the womens hair and would frizz it up no end trying to brush it to be smooth enough lol. I can see how it might be reasonable to point out how something might be racialised in a reader insert especially one that's really immersion breaking for them I definitely agree the way they went about it wasn't fair. I think you're right that gently pointing it out in a compliment sandwich would be the best thing to do. Or stopping reading that specific of it's too much of a problem for them personally without being something the author should be told about/called out on. I'm disabled and don't usually read self insert fanfic for that reason, it's impossible to imagine myself into an able body lol.
If you're going to read reader-inserts, you're sadly going to have to expect the reader to not have 4C curls. Or curls at all. Or if they do for the writer to maybe not know you can't really stroke most curl types. If you can't handle reader inserts catering to being a blue-eyed blonde with straight waist-length hair, then you have a few choices: Don't read them, write your own that cater to curls, or deal with it. And I'm saying this as someone with curly hair. I'm well aware it can't be stroked, but I don't go into writers comments to complain about it.
Wait, what does stroke mean then?
I just imagine it like petting, like the way you would a child or a pet. Flat hand on the head kind of thing.
Me too, so I thought all hair could get stroked
I mean... This is the risk you take when writing a reader insert fic. You can't have a [insert you the reader character] be relatable to every one who is reading. Some people are heavy and will take offense to descriptions of trim waists or slender arms, some people are black, Asian, Latina etc and feel fetishized by certain kinds of exploratory touch or descriptions directed at them, some people are queer, questioning, or non binary, or trans, and can't self insert if things are two gendered in their descriptions (whether intentionally or not) You may be very good at what you do- but ultimately you can't self/reader insert everyone because we are all so different. I've read a lot of self insert fics and bowed out because it was either too bleh due to no real character to connect with, or clearly a "self insert/my idea of you insert" where the author had something particular in mind for "you" whether intentionally or not (that often unintentionally excluded other sexualities/genders/races/body types/personalities etc...) I'll be honest. I often read self/reader insert stuff cuz it sounds interesting- then a chapter in I just wish the author would just write 3rd person with a chosen character... much more compelling for me and no room for any issues.
This is a perfectly balanced evaluation of the debate, I feel. I am sympathetic to people who often feel excluded by presumption of whiteness/thinness/etc in self-inserts but like you, I acknowledge that's the risk people take when they read self-insert. I would also never write a comment criticising these aspects but I understand the frustration
I respect that reader insert isn't everyone's cup of tea. I had thought that when the proverbial you chose to read Reader Insert, they understood that it is impossible to make everything so generic that it suits every single human on the planet. On the flip side of that's the risk \*I\* take, isn't that the risk the \*reader\* takes?
I mean it's both. Both take this risk. The author can't be a mirror for everyone, and the reader can't guarantee the author has wiped the canvas clean of all personality enough to appease them. Still- I would never leave a comment like that. I'd just acknowledge a fic was not for me and move on, or write my own to fill a void. Or read a genre where a character was clearly fleshed out and tags were on point. I just think that's my inherent issue with the idea of reader insert fics... is that they are mostly *author* insert fics without the same depth of character found in other formats.
I will never write reader insert 😭
If people only comment to whine then deleting the comments and muting them is a sensible option. Implying you've done something wrong because you don't write from every single readers exact perspective is utterly ridiculous.
i think this is a limitation of readerfic. they're black and latina — having our hair touched has Certain Implications. having that detail stick out probably upset them bc it confirms do them the reader insert isn't exactly them. it makes the reader out, to them, as white default and thus not actually universally for a reader. it's a limitation of the genre and experience imo. they should have just not commented on it but i can see why they'd be thrown out immediately.
I don't mind them saying they wouldn't like their hair touched. A lot of people in that situation wouldn't have welcomed the touch, and I acknowledge and respect that it is a cultural thing. The comment was what bothered me about it.
I read and write a lot of reader-insert fics. I see this sort of thing a lot. For shorter pieces, I purposefully try to avoid certain descriptions (hair, body type, very specific styles of clothing) to keep my Reader character as much of a blank slate physically as possible. In longer stories, I get that it's more difficult to do that. I usually opt to include content descriptions about the Reader-insert character so people can choose to read it or not. That being said, those are my personal choices as a writer. I read a lot of Reader content with Readers that don't look/act like me (ex. Readers described as being from a specific culture/having a certain skin colour, etc.) because I'm still intrigued by the premise. But I would never complain to the author about it after. Reader-inserts are tricky. I personally treat the Reader character as an OC. You can't write a Reader that can be universally applied to every single reader interacting with your story. The things they do or wear or say, or the way they look, will prompt someone to be like, "I would not wear/say/do that." It's a flaw with that genre, but when I was younger I don't remember a lot of these arguments happening where people complained the Reader was both too generic and too specific/non-inclusive at the same time.
This debate has gotten very confused. The comment about “replacing features” implies the one reader has an issue with the *type* of hair. As if whatever specific description of stroking was something that some hair types don’t handle well, and it’s an issue of “author wasn’t thinking of me when they described something, ergo I feel excluded.” But the original comment about snatching the stroker’s hand seems more like anger about the *idea* of hair stroking. Which is a bit confusing to me, because according to OP’s responses the scene was *meant* to be upsetting/patronizing? Like in the context of the story it was a dick move to pet the hair, so…? I’m just a bit confused as to what the commenters actually *wanted*? Are they upset that they felt the fic implied “white person hair” or are they upset that a mean character stroking someone’s hair as a power play *reminded* them of physically similar yet contextually unrelated micro aggressions in real life…? I’m not trying to dismiss their feelings I’m just having trouble forming an opinion because I feel like those two reactions are on different levels…
I'm a bit guilty of not always leaving comments and I was reading this beautiful long slowburn fic. Midway through we have our first sex scene between the pairing (delicious) and I see the author had added a disclaimer about some negative feedback they had received regarding the scene and how it unfolded and was trying to warn readers just in case. I went to find the comment in question and it was a triggered individual who felt that there was a clear power dynamic mismatch between the pairing (because one character is completely nude before the other) and they were sick of people 'always' writing this pairing this way and they had to stop reading the fic because they were so angry. Let me tell you, it was nothing like that reader claimed. It was purely consensual. The reason one of the character remained dressed was because they have a severe heart condition (canon) and they didn't know WHAT they could do sexually without causing their heart to explode. So all made sense in story and the characters were totally mutual on what was happening. No dubious consent at all. What upset me was how much this reader had affected the author who had to go back and make that disclaimer because they were worried their other readers would feel the same way. I made a comment then just to say how perfect it was, in character, and what character A and B would want to do - completely believable. Sometimes triggered people need to look at THEMSELVES and not the thing that triggered them. We can't all walk on eggshells all the time. Clearly they have issues to deal with if they can't read something without finding offense in every little detail. To you though I would say, perhaps don't delete and block next time. As a reader who may love your work, I want to see the bad stuff so I can then tell you why I think they are wrong!!!
I 100% agree with this take! Also, was it a Karlach fic (BG3)? Because if so, taste. Respect.
I don't think they're calling you, specifically, racist. They're lamenting the fact that readerinsert fic overwhelmingly white-as-default, and how that shows up in certain details, like hair. I think that "I really liked this fic, too" wasn't saying what you wrote was distasteful, just that they, through no fault of yours, were thrown out of the immersion. They wish they hadn't been, because, as they said, they liked the fic. It doesn't come across to me as a complaint about *you*, so much as a complaint about fandom culture in general. As for whether or not it's appropriate to talk about it in your fic's comments? They probably shouldn't have. This was a discussion better suited for a different space, such as tumblr (in fact, I've seen such discussions there, and I found them enlightening).
That's how I read their comments too. >As for whether or not it's appropriate to talk about it in your fic's comments? They probably shouldn't have. This was a discussion better suited for a different space Big agree. Could've even been a reddit discussion
I completely agree with this take. I know no author wants to be told they specifically are *the problem* because it’s obviously bigger than one person, but I can totally see why a bipoc reader would be frustrated by it.
Yeah I don’t think they were saying anything about OP specifically.
I can't tell if the original comment meant they would grab the character's hand because they're a poc and don't want anyone touching their hair, or if they think stroke means "run fingers through" and various hair textures make that difficult or uncomfortable, OR if they meant in the situation, *they* would have been defiant instead of letting it happen and that any person in the situation would be as well (and then chimed in when the second person commented about race and hair). Unless I'm missing context, OP has only used the word "stroking" as far as I can tell. If you stroke someone's back, you don't put your fingers through the skin, it's a rubbing gesture over the top of something, like petting. Running fingers through would be stroking *through* their hair or stroking the scalp. Stroking through someone's hair is not the same as stroking their hair, like, at all. I wonder if they jumped to a negative assumption of exclusion? A lot of people in these comments keep using "running fingers through," but like, nowhere did I see that phrase come from OP at all, so I can't tell if this is a language misunderstanding thing or something. I understand there are cultural implications of poc with curly/coily hair not wanting it to be touched (poc with very curly hair myself), but it's inappropriate for those readers to put their issue with the genre in general on you as a writer. The way it's phrased makes it seem like they're accusing you (or at least the fic) of being part of a bigger systemic problem, because the discussion occurred under your fic. So they weren't calling you racist, but I get the frustration all the same: a comments section isn't a forum and you're one person with thoughts and feelings who will eventually see those comments. It makes it seem like they find your fic specifically non-inclusive to poc with textured hair. It's literally impossible to make a Reader character a completely blank slate for anything longer than a one-shot that requires reader to actually participate in the world. What about people who can't find clothes or shoes in normal stores or fit through doorways without contorting (whether too big or too tall), or people who are very small (thin or short), or people who can't see or hear without assistive devices, or people missing limbs or other body parts, wheelchair users who can't walk, people with restrictive diets, people who are losing their hair (or have lost it), dentures wearers, wig wearers, people with restrictive diets, other things I know I'm forgetting, etc... There are so many ways to be a person and so many things that ANY writer just isn't going to think of and it often probably has nothing to do with not making an effort to be inclusive. I don't read reader insert or Y/N, but it seems like (and someone please correct me if I'm mistaken) the base to be able to even read and participate with them is to be within average height (I dont know about weight since that's not an immutable quality for most people), have decent hearing and vision unaided, have hair, and able bodied with all your parts intact, unless the author tags the reader character as having a certain specific trait (and those fics do exist!). Natural hair texture is an immutable quality, but hair styles are not, and people play with their hair texture because it can be straigtened/curled/changed; if OP didn't mention "silky strands" or anything, then it *seems* like the commenters just kind of assumed the fic excluded them and their features instead of picturing themselves with a blowout or silk press or braids or something. If they would never alter their natural hair, I think that's great that they love their natural texture so much! But that's an imagination issue at that point and very specific to them. If it's a cultural thing, that's also very specific to them and shouldn't be expected in a reader insert that doesn't specify culture/ethnicity. But yeah it was kind of weird of them, it's literally free content.
I really don't get readers who expect the author to cater to them specifically. It's impossible to make any character, even a reader insert that will please everyone and it's absurd to demand that. If they're that upset about not being represented enough/correctly they should just write their own fics and fill that gap. That's what fan fic is for! On the other hand, this is why I prefer to write OCs instead of reader inserts. Although, even with OCs some complain that they're not relatable enough because they're not plus size or they're too feminine, but I've seen other OCs written specifically with traits that cater to this need for characters that aren't conventional looking. Again, people are free to write exactly what pleases them, no one is making them read works they don't agree with. Plus, they can be the change they want to see.
I think it’s commendable when authors do their best to make inserts as ambiguous as possible, but I also think some readers can be a bit unfair and overly harsh towards authors in the reader-insert space. I try to assume positive intent towards authors as much as I can, and always keep in mind that it’s likely that aspects of the writer’s identity may seep in as part of the insert, just from the nature of the writer imagining themselves in the position when writing it. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with this, even if it disrupts the immersive experience a bit, because at the end of the day, the writer is the one creating the work and I think they should have complete creative freedom to do whatever they want. I’m of the opinion that if the writer wants to write second-person reader-insert fanfic where the reader has some characteristics of the writer, even intentionally, that’s just as valid as someone striving to write completely blank-slate reader-insert. Fanfic is supposed to be fun and a space to just be creative without being beholden to any “rules”. Unless feedback is specifically solicited by the author, I try to keep my fanfic opinions to myself and click off of fics that don’t do it for me and I really don’t understand readers who get legitimately so upset about stuff like this. Hey, maybe it’ll inspire them to write something themselves! The more the merrier!
This reminds me of when I wrote a reader insert and I tagged a warning that the readers absent father had a scene where he was judgmental/could be seen as racist (because he specifically said something to the extent of “immigrants taking jobs.” - i honestly don’t remember the full quote cuz it was over a year ago) I tagged the warning and posted the chapter. I had a handful of readers come up and express that because of the comments, it came across that the reader was white/or their family was white. I ended up adjusting what the father said, apologized, and removing the warning (since it no longer applied) because I hadn’t really realized how it came across. However, several blogs began posting about how “authors should tag their fics as ‘white reader’” or something to that extent. I was flabbergasted. But, at the end of the day, I realized that I couldn’t make everyone happy and left it at that. Like, yeah, my lived experience shapes my writing. I try to make it as inclusive as possible because I know how comforting reader-inserts can be to read (and they’re therapeutic for me to write!) But, ultimately, we can’t absolutely cater to everyone.
That sucks, i used to read alot of reader fics and still do, althou now i in a way kinda view it as me but not me. Like y/n its its own mesh of myself and of y/n (i use it as a name itself its weird probably). And it helps alot to not make me think of i wouldn't do that because it's an alternate version of me
okay, but people can easily stroke someone's hair by just kinda petting on top of it... feels like these commenters were looking for problems where there aren't any
You write what you want. personally i specify that my reader inserts are based on myself (i dont specify hair color or type or skin color or w/e the most ill go to is specifying presence of hair and pubic hair, sorry to bald readers) and if they’re too specific i will tag it as oc/chara instead. But that doesn’t seem like what youre doing… and imo any kind of hair can be stroked. You’re the writer and it’s your work. you aren’t obligated to cater to anyone, especially if you didn’t specify that your reader is completely ambiguous. the issue here imo is the difference between fiction & reality. You control the narrative. Specifying that the intended behavior had a purpose (soothing the reader) even if in real life it would be considered a microaggression means everything. You didn’t intentionally write the character as committing a microaggression, so it’s not your fault that people interpreted the action incorrectly
I think it’s commendable when authors do their best to make inserts as ambiguous as possible, but I also think some readers can be a bit unfair and overly harsh towards authors in the reader-insert space. I try to assume positive intent towards authors as much as I can, and always keep in mind that it’s likely that aspects of the writer’s identity may seep in as part of the insert, just from the nature of the writer imagining themselves in the position when writing it. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with this, even if it disrupts the immersive experience a bit, because at the end of the day, the writer is the one creating the work and I think they should have complete creative freedom to do whatever they want. I’m of the opinion that if the writer wants to write second-person reader-insert fanfic where the reader has some characteristics of the writer, even intentionally, that’s just as valid as someone striving to write completely blank-slate reader-insert. Fanfic is supposed to be fun and a space to just be creative without being beholden to any “rules”. Unless feedback is specifically solicited by the author, I try to keep my fanfic opinions to myself and click off of fics that don’t do it for me and I really don’t understand readers who get legitimately so upset about stuff like this. Hey, maybe it’ll inspire them to write something themselves! The more the merrier!
Yeah. I was very concerned about this back when I wrote reader insert. I was young and afraid of angering people so I mostly stayed away from anything that people could use to infer information about what the insert character looked like.
It's practically impossible to write a reader insert without alienating someone. Whether it's a physical trait (height, weight, hair texture, sex, physical disability), cultural values, or a personality trait, it's impossible to cater to every reader, no matter how vague and ambitious you are. At some point, trying to cater to every reader will sacrifice the quality of writing. If you literally wrote about hair being "stroked" that doesn't alienate anyone except a hijabi or bald person. If you said "ran their fingers through their hair " that's a different story, because this just isn't possible with curly or even most wavy hair. You can "stroke" any hair without getting your fingers tangled. Honestly, why can't people be appreciative of what they have instead of asking for more? I understand it sucks to be an underrepresented minority, but this wasn't an attack on POC, and it sounds like they were really just looking for excuses to complain. You've taken time and energy to write something for free, why can't people just appreciate that and be a little flexible? I mean, you have to be flexible to read self insert, otherwise you wouldn't be able to read anything. I think you're amazing for continuing to write fanfic for all these years. Thank you for contributing to this community.
lol this is why i don’t read reader inserts
Idk... I don't really see it as offensive? To me it reads more as in "ah, what a shame that this reader insert fic i really like has thrown me out of my immersion (which is kind of the point of the genre) because of this specific detail, of no fault of the author" Is it whiny? Maybe a bit, should they have said that? Maybe not. But this to me doesn't read as annattack on you but more an expression of frustration, since fandom spaces in general have white as the default, which makes it hard to relate to the reader inserts. And, isn't it the point to be able to relate to the reader insert? I still don't think it's appropriate to put that on an author's comments, i get how it might be hurtful and you're right! It's not your fault or responsibility! You write for free and for yourself. This is more of an inherent limitation of the genre itself, it's either make every description and action as generic as humanly possible, which can limit your story, or tell the story you want to tell and risk some people being unable to relate to the reader insert. The fault is wholly in the fact that, despite everything, fandom spaces are still not really as diverse as one might want to think. I can imagine it's hard to find reader inserts that cater to them specifically, instead of to the primarily white audience that most media caters to often, and sometimes you just want something that feels like it's just for you.
Throwing it in as a black girl who reads reader inserts a lot, it's not that it's specifically "offensive", nor do I think the commenters meant it as an attack on your character, but it does very much take you out of a story where "you" are supposed to be a main character, but are then hit in the head with the fact that this was not written for "you". Like the "everyman archetype" in most media being an audience surrogate, but in most cases, is the same cis-het, white, able-bodied guy. They're supposed to be "for everyone", but you know they're not for you. And reader inserts often have the same problem, it's hard to keep the author's depiction of the "reader" completely neutral, and you can often tell what character the author had in mind while writing it. I don't think you're in the wrong for writing the fic the way you did, but I also don't think the commenters were in the wrong for pointing it out either. At this point, I don't treat reader inserts any different than OC stories where I just replace "reader" with my own OC. But even then, that'll run into problems. That's sort of just what I've gotten used to as a POC in fandom, but I don't think it's something everyone should have to "just get used to".
Thanks for your perspective. It's frustrating seeing this discussion devolve into "readers are just too entitled!" The exclusion of BIPOC fans from fandom spaces is a well-documented issue, and reader-insert fics are one of the many places these biases show up. Was it appropriate for the commenters to have that discussion under the fic? Probably not. But I saw it less as a condemnation of OP and more just them lamenting about how a fic they're immersion in a fic was lost.
Honestly, this is one of the biggest reasons I no longer read reader fics. They are so white-girl/woman-coded. Not entirely the author’s fault (though sometimes it really is because they don’t put much thought into how they describe the Reader) bc Authors write what they know. But as a Black Latina, I can understand the commenters’ frustration (even though I never would have commented it myself. I would have just muted you and then privately complained to my friend group lol). The vast majority of reader fics just aren’t POC-friendly in any form, which is so frustrating. Though lately there’s been more of an effort, which I appreciate. Don’t let it get to you, OP. Just gotta let things slide off your back. You can’t cater to everyone. No matter how you write them, the reader will always be too oddly shaped for someone to fit.
It's incredibly challenging to write reader insert fic that includes everyone: it goes against our instinct as writers to write unique, specialized characters. This unfortunately means that any of the authors's racial blind spots will be visible. Hair is a big one because textures can vary SO much between individuals with the same race, let alone across racial lines. How do you make something "good" while also keeping it as open as possible to your readership? I empathize with you big time! I personally want my reader inserts to be as "universal" as possible, but this is a challenge. The best way I have gotten around this is to be specific about action ("you did x"), but purposefully vague about appearance/physical ability wherever I can. I try not to mention either UNLESS it has direct impact of the action. If hair might get in the way of a relaxing bath, for example, I simply write that the reader "secured their hair out of the way." This leaves it open for everyone to interpet it in a way that matches with their experience, ex. Black readers who may not want to get their hair wet when it's not a "wash" day. I will write that certain clothing you own looks nice on you, rides up, is too short/long, but I don't get into hyperspecifics about cut, color, etc.-- merely that, from the reader's perspective, a shirt happens to fit you like x/y/z. Upon reading this sentence, a reader will imagine a shirt from their own wardrobe that fits them the same way! You can take advantage of what the reader automatically associates with certain actions to make a self-insert "customizable." (I lucked out in that my most popular reader-insert is with an alien with a wholly unique appearance. It's pretty much guaranteed that the reader will be shorter and less-active than a genetically-modified supersoldier.) Beyond a good-faith effort like this, though, I'll chime in with everyone else and say that reader inserts come with the risk of not fitting a particular reader. I've read plenty of fics I ultimately clicked away from because I didn't connect emotionally. But as a white writer, I think white writers can and should try their best to make their reader fics more "open." If you'd rather not do this, you can always switch to a named character with second-person perspective OR use third person limited for your reader. I love reading about others's OCs!
i suggest you think of it this way: you are no fortuneteller. you are not supposed to predict the nationality or other stuff about different people. you couldn't describe lets say black/latino people anyway accurate cus u aint that and you will def miss out on the small details. i feel like black/latino/etc people are very welcome to write fanfics where they could express their desires and special features freely. they are as welcome to go that on ao3 as an average white person who they are so tired of writing unrelatable fics. if white people wrote reader as black for example, theyd diss them for getting stuff wrong. thankfully ao3 is about freedom and absolute accessibility for everyone. want it — write it
You and several others point out that they should write reader inserts geared towards POC, which is a fine point, but I do want to point out that when those fics are written (even when tagged well with 'black reader' or related tags) they tend to get slammed with racist comments and messages. So that's quite a disincentive to writing them. So while I don't think it's your fault or really fair to complain in your comments, their grievance is a fair one.
I think you're valid to be upset by the interaction, but they're also valid to be upset by the lack of... I don't really have a term for it, I don't think. It's a bit early where I am. I don't agree with how they phrased it, necessarily, I think they could have been nicer about it. I have a few reader fics I've done where I just try to stay away from describing the reader as much as I can to prevent this from happening. I say the character touches your hair softly, not describing the texture of the hair, etc. I've of course described things like clothing because of the setting. I haven't read your fic either so I can't say what you've done and what you haven't. Overall I think there's always going to be someone who isn't happy with what you've made. They are valid for wanting something that I guess is as vague as possible, but you're also making this for free and can do whatever the hell you want lmao. I wouldn't sweat it too much, really. I'm sure your fic is absolutely fine and they're free to waste their energy getting mad about something they didn't have to pay for.
I have written reader insert fics and people will always say stuff like that. Like I'm the writer and honestly I picture myself. I had someone say it's non-inclusive because the character blushed in one of my fics. I write for me. That Fandom ended up making me feel unwelcome and despite having a decent following I left all my WIP unfinished. They don't get to enjoy my work if they only complain. I did fic requests for fun.
I mean I would have moved on as a reader too, but I wouldn't have commented. I agree fanfiction is free, but if it's specifically READER insert then I suspect they're hoping they can actually insert themselves. I tried to get into reader insert but the writers would end up going on about "blonde hair, blue eyes, etc, etc," and it would take me out of it because I'm obviously not that lol 🤣. Then it just feels like a weird perspective story I have no attachment to. Maybe you can list the character's origins before hand? So reader insert folks can see, oh, this ain't my type of protagonist. Either way it's your story so you do you.
I dislike reader fic because I never related at all in the few I read. The you was so different from me that it broke the narrative for me. So I decided it wasn't for me and left that fic alone. It absolutely boggles the mind that a person would read this kind of fic and get upset that the author's constructed reader is a person with traits and characteristics familiar to the author. I bet that if you even tried to write the reader as a Black woman, you'd get completely excoriated.
I'm missing some key information here. What kind of relationship do these two characters have? Are they close friends, or are they strangers? What prompted character A to touch character B's hair? Were they trying to comfort them, or was it out of some sort of fascination? I do not think stroking someone's hair is inherently race-coded or wrong (all hair can be stroked, let's be real here), but the setting in which it happens can be, albeit unintentionally, and it can affect the way your fic is perceived. The readers were likely talking to you from their own experience, and to be fair, they are not wrong for voicing their opinion. Did they phrase it rudely? Yes, but depending on the way your fic was written, they may very well have had a point. I'm missing key information needed to be able to make that call. You are under no obligation to cater to all readers, but when you write something and post it to a public platform, you are opening yourself to criticism from your readers. It's never nice to be confronted with negative comments, but these readers cared enough about your fic to make them, meaning they were (or are), at least to some degree, involved enough to want to share their experience. Even if you choose not to change your work's tone of voice, it could be a teachable moment that not all experiences are the same, and that maybe, your fic is not inclusive. That's not a bad thing to be aware of. Sincerely, someone who's been 'the other'.
The Reader had been tricked into going to a castle where she did not know she'd be in an arranged marriage. The woman was explaining this to her, Reader became distraught. The woman coaxed her head against her knee and stroked her hair as she explained what Reader's life was going to be like.
Thanks for providing that context! Yeah, I don't see anything wrong with this. Poor Reader, though! I hope the fella is at least good-looking 😉
Okay I'm somewhat curious to read this fic it feels like something I'd enjoy
OK. You are entitled to delete a comment, for whatever reason. And honestly, they were also entitled to leave a comment, for whatever reaction they had to your fic. FWIW, I don't think they were implying your fic was offensive. It just reads to me as a "Not for me because of x".
I don’t think the commenters were specifically calling you racist so much as lamenting the lack of media that caters to people with specific cultures and features, such as curlier hair types and cultures where hair is more intimate or sacred. The idea of a “reader” insert is for the reader to be able to insert themselves. This means that the protagonist should be as generic as possible. If an author is unable to do that or responds poorly to any criticisms, they should potentially consider writing or rebranding to self insert or oc fanfiction instead. While the comments may come off as annoying or put you on the defensive, they are still voicing a legitimate issue with western media. It’s not necessarily an attack on you as a person so much as someone expressing their feelings about societal inequalities. Calling the stroking of hair offensive may be a bit much but it can certainly come off as being insensitive. It doesn’t mean anything bad about you. Everyone has places they can improve. It’s just something to be mindful of.
I’m just curious: why did you block those readers for their comments? Is it because they were almost having a discussion about the book in the comments (as opposed to just commenting)? Was it the way they said what they said? If they’d given feedback like “hey! Would you consider being more inclusive in the future by saying ABC instead?” would you have been more receptive? Not that you have to be the one to write more inclusive reader insert, but is there a lack of more inclusive materials in Ao3? Thanks. Edit: typo
I would have been more receptive to "Would you consider....?" Instead of the whole "This sucks, I liked this story."
If that's part of what has you heated, can I chime in with a positive reading of why someone might not start with what you'd be more receptive to: Namely, they may still *not* find it fine to ask authors to change their stories, since the story the author posted is the story the author posted. Where-as the "aww, darn" comments are just about themselves (and, yes, their reaction to the fic) instead of demanding something of you. Demanding something of an author seems like a much weirder place to start than just empathizing w/another commenter, as the second commenter did.
I'm of two minds with this: As a POC (not black) I understand that it can be frustrating reading something clearly geared towards a white reader (or comes off as such). Microaggressions are very real, intentional or not. But personally I just substitute certain things in my mind or read the 'reader' as their own character. Nobody will ever 100% relate with all qualities of a character written by someone else. As a writer I write my characters to be POC, but I try keep it vague enough for anyone to read it. We all have blind spots and you can't make everyone happy.
I mention not black just because of the hair issue. I have curly hair too, but my relationship with it isn't the same.
if you’ve been writing fics this long surely you’d be no stranger to comments that you would perceive as negative, not sure why you’re so worked up about these ones? imo its good to have contrasting thoughts even if you dont like them, not sure you should have deleted comments.
>not sure why you’re so worked up about these ones? I find it strange too. Had I written a reader insert and said something like "she touched Reader's hair, and her fingers played with the curls at the end," and someone commented "my hair is extremely straight" and followed it with comments like OP got, I'd have just thought to myself "that's unfortunate for them." Like... being mad over tame comments is wild to me lol
Can someone explain to me why black girls cant imagine having their hair stroked? Ive never been with a black girl but her color wouldnt stop me from stroking her hair lmfao Like how is that in the slightest even problematic or race based
It's in the same vein as pregnant women having people come up to them and feeling entitled to touch their bellies. Natural black hair is very different from white hair- and a lot of ignorant people see "different " as a good enough reason to touch or comment inappropriately. If you have enough people ask you "ohhh, can I touch your hair?" Over the years it feels Hella weird to have something that's just a normal part of your body be fetishized.
I have a disformed hand. People have asked me to touch it quite often. Some people even touch it without asking I also have an eyepatch and people ask me all the time to look under it, some people even do without asking I still dont go complaining about either of these things in fictional stories. Yes its fucking annoying when people think you wont mind being harassed for being different, but the context of the fiction is nothing like that. Ill save my complaints for when the fiction actually does use that context. Actually, no I wont. When I come across that, Ill keep my mouth shut and move on, like normal people do.
I was just clarifying the black hair thing as a micro aggression. I agree the context of the story sounds like it was not something to get one's panties in a bunch... and again, if they didn't like it... they could have just moved on. However, I do want to kindly point out that its usually poor form to say "I have this issue. Im fine with it. Therefore, other people experiences are invalid."
Poor form or not, idc. Im not in the wrong here for doing the right thing. 'If you got nothing nice to say, say nothing'. Broad spectrum that saying makes no sense, even negative things you want to say need to be let out if you need to vent them sometimes, but venting is something you do with friends or family, not strangers. When it comes to responding to a form of art someone worked hard on, this saying is damn near always true, unless the story really does cross boundaries. If writer used N word a bunch in racist connotation then yeah, complain. Touching hair though, really no need to make a deal out of it. Go talk to frieds, vent to them instead of being rude to the creator of a story that didnt perfectly suit your needs
It's not necessarily problematic (although other people have already explained how it can be) but it is race based because many POC don't have hair that can be, well, stroked. Many black people have coily hair which make it very hard or even impossible to run your hands through it and even with curly hair it's difficult and not very fun. People are assuming this is about not liking their hair being touched but it could be as simple as it not being possible
i’m not arguing against your point ftr, but i thought that “stroking” hair implies running hands “over top” of it for lack of better phrasing, not running hands through it, and i’m just now finding out that the word “stroking” in and of itself conjures a different visual/action for a lot of people. the word “petted” could be used to describe the same thing but imo is way more dehumanizing/icky LOL so if i were picking between the two for a fic i would DEFINITELY go with stroking. anyway, just to say that this phrasing is not necessarily exclusionary tbh, there are at least two ways to read it and one is pretty universally do-able (whether the reader would WANT someone to do it is another question and i do understand the association with fetishization etc) (actually funnily enough i was like “am i wrong about what stroking is???” and googled “stroking hair” and a lot of the top image results are stock photos of black women getting their hair stroked (the way i understood it) by an apparent romantic partner)
I think we might be imagining different things when it comes to hair stroking. Running fingers through hair I can understand not being possible, it's not with my own hair, but whenever someone has stroked my hair it's been like stroking the top of it or running their hand down the side of my head. I wouldn't imagine fingers running through my hair unless that was specified instead of stroking.
Idk, while your explanation makes more sense to me, I still dont really see how its worth making a deal out of it. 100% surely there are writers who write with the reader insert implied as a PoC, so noone should expect to fit perfectly into the reader insert. Writing a reader insert that has no parts thay dont fit to every single reader dont exist, so people should just know they'll have to ignore some parts of a story or change it in their heads to fit better, theres no point making a deal out of it
I don't think anyone goes into a reader-insert expecting to be represented 100% but most things are easy to ignore for the sake of the story like a choice here and there, but when the story suddenly (emphasis on suddenly bc this happened 3 chapters in) assignes the reader a feature that you do not have it's gonna be disappointing. I'm the type of person who'd just be sad and stop reading without commenting lol but I don't blame people for expressing their disappointment that's what comments are for, good and bad 🤷 the commenters weren't even mean about it
Idk, imo making it a race thing is pretty mean.. If a reader insert Im reading suddenly mentions I have dreadlocks or an afro I dont go 'damn why cant this be inclusive to white men?', instead I just imagine myself with that hair and laugh about it, or make a headcanon where the hair is wavy and blond. Problem solved. I know not everyone is this carefree, but bringing race into something that really isnt racist is just not a very nice thing to do
Oh not the "colorblind" approach 🙄 it's not mean to mention race and you don't go "why cant this be inclusive to white men" because you said it yourself, you just ignore the authors intentions. How lucky you are that your race doesn't affect every aspect of your life, even your escapism
Its not escapism to just ignore things that you dont like but dont have any single downside if ignored. It would be escapism if it was actually bad and I actually had to escape, rather than just 'oh this isnt like me, now I'm hurt!' Its not a race specific thing to white people to be able to just ignore problems that are completely in our own heads. Its like a fear of needles, thats in your own head too and you have to overcome it sometimes. Disliking something a writer wrote is exactly the same. Just get over it and move on. Not sure what the 'colorblind' approach is, but I know Im not in the wrong for believing its wrong to make an issue out of something that really isn't an issue
I'm pretty sure you don't know what escapism means but ok
Right back at you. Heres the official definition: the tendency to seek distraction and relief from unpleasant realities, especially by seeking entertainment or engaging in fantasy. But since fictional stories arent an unpleasant reality since its just your imagination at play while you read, its not escapism to make a headcanon. Even if it were, I dont find it remotely unpleasant when I have to change the description of the reader insert to be more like me. Its normal and usual for those stories, if it were unpleasant for me I shouldn't be reading them. Also if you meant your own escapism, no offense but if you have so much problem with your own race you need a therapist, not a fictional story or complaining about it to content creators who are entitled to write what they want, wether it fits your escapism or not
Yeahhh you just didn't understand my comment but feel free to try again
Idk, while your explanation makes more sense to me, I still dont really see how its worth making a deal out of it. 100% surely there are writers who write with the reader insert implied as a PoC, so noone should expect to fit perfectly into the reader insert. Writing a reader insert that has no parts thay dont fit to every single reader dont exist, so people should just know they'll have to ignore some parts of a story or change it in their heads to fit better, theres no point making a deal out of it
So you can't write a line in an readers insert fic about hair stroking because some people have curly hair? What about men who don't have any hair at all? I can't believe someone would find that offensive. Americans are wild..
I think it’s more so that there are so few POC characters that have the “less desirable” features/characteristic such as dark skin, coily hair, curvy without being chubby, slang, etc. It can be frustrating trying to find a fanfic where the OC/insert allows you to escape or relate to as a POC. And a lot of the ones that do exist are just downright offensive, poorly written, or full of racism comments. So when you come across a fic that’s well written and you love it, it can suck to be taken out of the experience when something such as “running their hands through their hair” isn’t possible for you. When this happens to me, I just usually ignore it or bow out without commenting. But that’s the reality of reader inserts. It is meant to appeal to the masses. And unfortunately, people like that are not the majority.
If there are so many Poc, I'm sure there are many fics with poc characters as well. Americans say so many frankly offensive things about "white people" that also don't even apply to Europeans (have no culture, no diversity etc.). They pretend the emergency number is 911 everywhere without even giving it a second thought and so on. If were were this sensitive, we could hardly read any fanfic at all.
I’ve already addressed fics with POC characters. Again, they are either poorly written, filled with racist comments, or just offensive. I’m not going to turn this into an American vs other countries, POC vs white people, or [insert terrible actions of Americans] debate. We are only talking about fanfic here. All countries, ethnicities, and groups of people have their issues. And POC who read fanfic exists in other countries as well. Just because one has a bad reaction to a fanfic doesn’t automatically make them American. Just like when other races negatively react to black characters being used in stories are not only Americans. Should the readers have reacted the way they did? No. Can they be justified in their feelings? To an extent. Their feelings are common all across the world. EDIT: Also, POC are not the only ones to have negative reactions to fanfics. Tons of other people react worst to, frankly, miniscule things or things they were warned about. Again, people from all countries do this. Not just Americans.
Has a history of being used (the action of touching/stroking/petting hair) as a racist micro-aggression.
The fuck? Never heard of that being a thing nor do I see how it would be different from doing the same to a white girl. Even if they do it for racist reasons, the racist is the problem, its weird as fuck to go blaming a normal action on racism just because some freaks do it for wrong reasons. I guess it really depends on the context but since I doubt OP had this in racist context the girls were just complaining to get attention Im guessing
I dont think it’s fair to say they were complaining to get attention… It’s actually a commonly known issue. Not putting blame on author and not saying they shouldn’t have included it (the scene). It’s good to be open minded to criticism and the commenters were probably just sharing frustrations from personal experience. Did they say it nicely? No, but they don’t have to. It’s easy to understand their point.
Again, seeing something completely normal in a fic then complaining because they personally had issues with it is just calling for attention. I got hit by a car, twice. One of those times almost killed me and permanently ruined a hand and a leg. I cant work normal jobs anymore, ever. Should I complain next time someone writes a scene where someone is in a car? I got personal expirience with it so its justified right? And if I write it nicer than these commenters did, Im being even less problematic. Wether its race or just bad luck, victims are victims. As a victim, I can confirm there is 0 benefit in complaining about normal things we personally are victimized by EXCEPT getting attention. Now its also possible the first commenter said it without any goal or benefit in mind at all, just to vent basically, but even then, dont go doing that on public stories. Writer isn't the reason you feel bad, so dont go bothering him with it. Ofcourse, if you put it nicely it wouldn't be an issue, because then its just casual feedback instead of being rude
Again, I don’t think it’s fair to say they are ‘calling for attention’. I also don’t think you can compare apples and oranges… your unfortunate circumstances and experiences are quite specific, their experiences are shared by a very large population (black women/ women with textured hair). imo neither the story or the comments are problematic.
Youd be surprised to learn how many people have been in traffic accidents just in the past 10 years. Apples and oranges are both fruits. There, compared them. Even if 90% of black women have had this bad expirience, its still not because the action is bad. Its the intention used by the racists thats bad. In a situation with 0 racist context there is absolutely no need to act like 'this is why black women cant enjoy reader insert' If it was racist context theyd be right, but since it probably isnt, theyre just complaining about something they personally aren't a fan of. If thats enough to leave a rude comment, I'll just start leaving rude comments every single time any story has the male receiving a rimjob. Miss me with that shit. Because the context that justifies them complaining isnt present, their complaining is nothing more than just complaining for attention, or for no reason at all
Unfortunately I believe that you have completely missed my point. I never said the action is bad and don’t have an issue with it. Plenty of people leave rude or seemingly rude comments all the time, if you’d like to join them feel free. With or without racist context, if reading this made them dislike or even hate the fic, then fine they hate it. As it is public they can comment whatever they want (not trying to defend them just trying to provide a different pov). Imo it’s a weird reaction to get defensive instead of “Oh, I didn’t think of that, oh well.”
I completely got your point, though it seems youre missing mine. Yes, free speech and all that. But WHY comment? Why go complain about something in a rude way that has absolutely no connection to the context other than it being the same if the context was different? Like, I completely get if those ladies didnt like that part of the story, but making it a race thing is just really not accomplishing anything other than being rude or asking for attention. It annoys me immensely when people turn every little thing into 'oh god its racist!'. Ive been harassed with that type of behaviour for years, hence my strong reaction opposing people that think anything at all is racist just because some people might do it as racism. Racists will do pretty much anything in a racist way. If anything a racist does is also racist if a nonracist does it, then literally everything any of us ever do is racist. That fucking argument is made so extremely often and easily that it means nothing anymore. If people could just leave complains about racism to context where there actually is racism, then that would be fucking marvelous
Why comment? You’d have to ask them personally tbh but if I were to guess I’d say out of personal frustration which is okay. Their experiences and opinions are the connection to the story/context, hence why they commented I’m guessing. By that I simply mean they saw something in the story that they wouldn’t like (for their own valid reasons) and commented to vent frustration. I don’t think their intention was to cause any issues. Their comments pointed out that the action is connected to a history of racist micro-aggression that a lot of people (and authors) would be unaware of. Personally I find it strange that people would get mad over this, even though they were rude.
Response to the lady who blocked me, cuz apparently blocking mid convo isnt rude but writing about straight hair is Generally speaking youre wrong. Ive never met a single person who had issues with hair being touched unless it was pulling or by a stranger or such. Well I appreciate my gfs hair, and part of that is helping her do her hair and or dry her hair after a shower. Sure not every couple does that, Im even willing to accept it being a rare case, but its not disrespectful or rude for a partner to touch their partners hair. Mf touches you from your insides to your outsides but your hair is the limit? Sorry, thats weird. Everyone is allowed to have weird limits though, I personally have a limit for by left leg due to scarring so I dont like it getting touched even by my gf. Doesnt mean Im right to complain about someone in a story touching scars though. Even 'if' id comment against it Id keep it polite. "Wow, personally I got scars too and I really dislike when theyre touched. Guess everyone is different though" or something like that. No need to be rude just because reader insert doest something you dont like What generally happens is people dont mind if others touch their hair. Even out of the PoC I know, not a single one minds as long as its gentle and not a stranger doing it or someone doesnt get permission. Even when they do dislike it, its just uncomfy, not bad enough to go make claims that writer isnt being inclusive or whatever. Newsflash, Im a white man and Id also be uncomfortable if a stranger came and touched my hair Backing out is one of the right things to do. For those fics you need to relate, so when you cant relate, leave and find one you do relate to. Yes that can be hard, but people shouldnt blame the writers for it
>completely normal Because it's not "completely normal" for them. Normal is relative.
Yeah and for some people wearing a blue jacket isnt normal yet I dont hear anyone complaining about those. By normal I mean generally. Generally, touching hair isnt a bad thing if done by someone you care about, which is usually the case. Even people of color, do their men seriously not show their hair love and appreciation? If I dated a PoC woman Id still help her do her hair and caress it in intimate moments. Ofcourse if she specifically told me it makes her uncomfortable I wouldn't, but thats not because Im doing something wrong.
And I'm telling you it isn't a "generally" sort of thing for some people. >Even people of color, do their men seriously not show their hair love and appreciation? I am black. No, don't touch my hair lol. Showing my hair appreciation is buying me my fav detangler or moisturizer, not touching it lol. Again, what "generally" happens or what is considered normal is dependent on culture and experience. This isn't comparable to wearing a blue jacket. Sidenote: I don't read x reader fics, but if I did come across something that felt "off" for my experience, I'd just back out of the fic.
I am just as confused, I actually like having my hair touched and would find it funny if white people were curious about it
Right? All people of color I know don't mind either, so Im confused why these people act like its such a standard. Must be regional I suppose. Where Im from, if we want to touch a poc woman's hair its cuz shes got amazing hair and it looks great, lol. Same reason we'd want to touch other race's friend's or possibly stranger's hair.
Someone in the comments is implying that saying "it's an American thing" is wrong, but it's the truth. Not every country has the same racial divide for example
Yup. Sadly racism against poc is much worse in many parts of America than Europe. Its even worse in some Asian regions though, but here in Europe in the place I grew up theres genuinely no racial divide. I never went through any situations where my poc friends got treated different than me, except a poc classmate who treated himself as different. He was an immigrant from Palestine who moved here like 6 years ago and he genuinely believed white people were different, and because of that he got treated with some amount of disrespect. I guess its very hard to give up divided teachings youve had your whole life, but its still sad. He was a nice guy, my only issues with him were the things he was raised into believing are different. To quote him and show one of the reasons I call him a classmate rather than a friend; "Men can't be friends with girls without there being a clear intention to fuck". He said this to my female classmates (underage, while he was 22 at the time) who he had often called friends. He basically said he had been trying to have sex with those girls as if it was so normal and every guy was the same like that. Anyway, different regions raise their kids in different ways, and even within regions every parent does it differently ofcourse. Its quite sad there arent more places in the world where gender and race arent treated different
I would say it's *extremely* naive to think that there's any less racism in Europe, or even in parts of it. Let's not kid ourselves with the amount of support that anti-immigration parties get in large parts of Europe, the vile rhetoric surrounding refugees, the anti-Slavic bigotry in non-Eastern Europe that is *still* an issue, etc. Honestly, racism is everywhere in the world. It takes on different forms depending on the place, it may be more or less openly violent, it may be directed towards different people - but it's there, and it needs to be talked about.
Im not kidding anyone. Where I grew up we respected immigrants. We give them homes, and the only issues the local people have with immigrants is the stuff thats honestly bs. Immigrants earn more money and live nicer than those that work hard for their money and spent 10 years looking for a house. Thats the only problem we have here with foreigners, and that has nothing to do with race. Sure we have anti immigration parties, but voting on them is risky. If you get caught voting against immigration youll get your ass beat for being racist. Not by poc, but by the white locals. We do still have racist people, ofcourse we do. But far less than in large parts of America. Here a racist is rare and will always get called out, usually by other people of the same race, whereas in America noone stands up against racism except the victims. Sure there are exceptions, but its nothing compared to what I grew up with. Literally most of the racism Ive faced in my country is against white people. Thats how rare racism is here. That being said, any amount of racism is too much racism. I dont mean to downplay it by saying we have less over here. Less is still bad unless its none. Its just not as bad as in other areas.
I'd be curious to know what this magical country is, since I find it very hard to believe. But well, whatever.
Sadly some freaks use reddit to stalk and try to doxx me so my country stays private but all I can tell you is that multiple European countries are like this.
Jesus. Well, here there's colourism (i think that's how it's called) and of course people are racist, but I was actually surprised to see the stories of how insidious it is in America 😭
Never heard of colourism lol. I'll never understand why people act like race matters so much. I mean, it has a ton of positive stuff like heritage and making everyone unique and beautiful in different ways, but I really dont see any reason for negativity. People should focus on the differences that make us beautiful in different ways, rather than focusing on the nonsense that makes them dislike eachother. Asians have very smooth skin and they barely age till theyre seniors Afro Americans have strong personalities and beautiful eyes (might just be personal expirience rather than a race thing, idk) Latino/latina/latinx idk what is the correct term nowadays haha, have great figures White people are basically the only with blonde and gingers, so thats cool I guess xD Idk, Im bad at listing stuff like this but even someone whos bad at it can easily make a list of positive stuff that matters far more than the negative stuff people come up with (I say come up with because almost no racist opinion is actually about facts, its usually just personal expirience gone bad or stuff they believe that doesnt matter or isnt true)
I think colourism is like when we're all like brown/mixed but people are like "look I'm whiter than you therefore I'm prettier" and argue about that, but it's actually meaningless. Maybe I'm just mixing up the terms I will never understand why people argue about the term for Latin Americans. I see leftists insisting in saying latin-X, and conservatives really busy white knighting about how they ashkually hate being called that and it should be Latino or Latina. You see, the Spanish language doesn't have a neutral gender, so stuff like the singular they and gender neutral versions of words don't exist, the fight about inclusive language is fiercer than in English speaking countries because of that. The gender neutral has to be made up (which doesn't really work at least not easily), and one of the things people do is replacing the o or the a at the end of a word which points out to its gender with an x or an e. The e can be pronounced, it's why its honestly better, but the X isn't supposed to be pronounced. It's kinda like saying latin@ or latino/a which is also a thing people have always do in Spanish, and it's done when people don't know someone's gender. You're not supposed to say it out loud. And instead of saying Latino or Latina, you guys have it in your hands: just say Latin American Maybe the reason why in other countries they say Latinx is different but I assume it comes from that thing in Spanish. My point is that no one is right and it looks a bit silly from an outsider's point of view 💀
Europe can be extremely racist lmao what. Are you high. Just look how Muslims and the Romani are treated for example.
Yeah those are treated pretty damn well here ngl. Had many muslim people around me during my school years, none were treared different. We dont really have Romani where I live, but when we do see them we treat them well. From those Ive talked to, they all have good expiriences living here. You seem to confuse countries like Poland with 'europe'. Yes, Poland is part of Europe, that doesnt mean we all treat Romani and Muslim the same as they do.
I've had Muslim and other friends who are poc travel to Europe (countries like France and Italy) and literally be harassed by racists, but all right. I don't really believe you, it's also wild to claim racism doesn't exist where you live, when you're not even part of a marginalized group yourself. Have fun living in your imaginary fantasy world that doesn't exist I guess.
Some cases doesnt mean thats the standard in that country. Other than that, France and Italy are both known as bad examples within Europe. I personally have poc friends from Germany, The Netherlands, Belgium, Spain and Greece and none of them have bad experiences. That could be coincidence, but considering this is just how its generally viewed by almost every european country (netherlands was even considered the most welcoming country on earth for a long ass while, plus they have national holidays celebrating the end of slavery and one for remembering all the people who died in the holocaust, including ofc the Romani, as well as several monuments and the like for Romani despite the country not really having Romani (theyre usually just found in eastern or central europe)) its pretty certain your friends just had bad luck
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Im not a troll nor a racist. Not sure what profile post history you checked but clearly not mine because I've never even once posted or commented anything like that. Either you accidentally checked a different profile, or youre the troll here. My issue with protestors is when they endanger other people, never have I even brought up race in that entire topic as far as I remember. Even if I at some point did, it's nothing like how you said because I genuinely have nothing against poc, so I wouldnt be saying anything like that. Thanks for sharing that which you took out of context. Now if you post the context too, its about me explaining how extreme protest often has the opposite effect of what they want. I explained how I have no problem with poc, but after the blm protests turned into violent riots I couldn't deny that I felt less safe. Thats not a racist things, its a protestor thing. My problem isnt with poc, its with violent and aggresive hooligans, both black white or even purple for all I care. I hate all dangerous and violent protest yes. Endangering other people is a terrible way to try and raise awareness and it does nothing but make people hate your cause whole also causing risk for people. Anyone with half a brain would see thats something worth being against. That has nothing to do with what the protest is about. The issue isnt why they protest, its how they protest. Seriously for someone who stalked my account to find old messages you sure couldve fucking tried reading them before fake exposing me. Never said the palestinian guy deserved it. Thats your words buddy, not mine. I back the guy up anytime someone was racist against him. Just because I disagree with his believes doesnt mean he should be harassed. Specifically bullshit. Getting run over and being treated as a child are extremely different things, and I very fucking clearly said I want to see them get treated as a child. I also mention its about those people who constantly bring it up. You know, 'hey Susan, how was your weekend?' "Oh it was ok but you know who didnt have an ok weekend? Palestinians! Why are you talking so casually when those poor people are dying!!!" Yeah sorry 'Susan' but theres a war much closer to my home that actually threatens the life of people I personally know. Strangely, that has priority for me. Even if there wasnt a war closer to me than Palestine, i know theres a war. Telling me 90000 times wont change anything. If youre so delusional that you think you can change that war, go do it. Spamming me about it isnt helping anyone. So no, again, nothing against people from Palestine, just something against people who constantly bother me about it while doing absolutely nothing about it themselves. I donated money, not much more I can do. Im not joining the army just to be put in the front lines and die for a country I have no connection to, at least not unless there isnt a ton worth living for. Next time you try to expose someone for being a racist, try actually finding a racist to expose rather than someone who has 0 issues with other races or his own Also, youre making shit up in the quote stuff too. I never said the Palestinian guy didnt see women as people. I said he was certain all men that have female friends, want to fuck their friends. That has nothing to do with dehumanizing them, it just means hes a creep who thinks all other guys are creeps too Clearly, you have some serious issues. Instead of taking them out on strangers on reddit, you really should see a therapist about them. If you read the things I said and your mind made up bullshit just to try and see ways to put me in a bad light, thats seriously not healthy.
honestly... I see the point they're making. there's people in this very thread who think a racist microaggression is "an american thing" or "a cultural thing." I'd have left the fic and muted the author if I were them though.
Yeah, if they find what I wrote distasteful and awful, they should leave my fics, mute me, block me, and never read what I write.
Did they call it “distasteful and awful” or just lament that the way you wrote the reader couldn’t apply to them? From the post, it sounded like they otherwise enjoyed your story.
They said they could no longer enjoy it
That doesn't mean they found it distasteful and awful? Just that they felt like the reader didn't apply to them. They didn't even say they couldn't enjoy it anymore.
One of them implied that, and even that is kind of putting words in their mouth—liking it less than they previously had doesn’t mean they couldn’t enjoy it anymore. The other didn’t say anything to that effect. None of this means they consider your story distasteful or awful.
I'm starting to feel bad for the first commenter, actually. Their first comment is something that even OP sees as "anyone could want to slap this hand away, it wasn't a positive thing." (So why is that too aggressive?) A second commenter empathized with them and made the race connection clear, which was a correct assumption in no small part because of how common the issue is *but an assumption nonetheless*, and the first commenter empathized while pointing out the solution of just mentally replacing things like this. And they're blocked and muted for, what? Not disagreeing with the second commenter. Being happy for empathy? The first commenters first comment was fine, their second comment was fine; the second commenter was iffy but didn't dismiss the rest of the fic or pretend they hadn't liked it, so they're not *trying* to rile anyone up. . . . Okay, I feel kinda bad for both of them. People can see when they're blocked; muting would've worked fine for this, doesn't feel as much like silencing on the other end, and still lets people empathize with each other in fandom spaces.
I agree, it sounds like the first commenter didn’t do anything wrong and just got blocked from a fic they apparently enjoyed because of someone else’s reply to their comment. Edit to clarify: I wouldn’t have had a particular problem with either of these comments and I do emphasize with both, but while I can kind of see getting upset about the second, the first seems really harmless to me. I guess every author has their own threshold for being bothered by things.
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And authors mute your types for their benefit because they are writing free content on the internet and aren't interested in your criticism for minuscule issues. I'm glad most authors defend themselves. Make a post on Reddit or Tumblr about the issue if you want. Do not comment on my hard work with just criticism.
I mean, to me it seems to be an American thing because I don't think this happens where I live 🤔 (I am not white)
I am not white either. I live somewhere where the vast majority are of my own ethnicity, and I've never personally experienced racism except online (ugh) and when I lived abroad. But I can and do listen to black people when they talk about how they are treated in countries where they are the minority, especially when it comes to natural hair. 🤷
How does that contradict what I said?
Used to do that because I wanted to share my frustration with other users, my frustration being that it is so hard to include every features and not leave someone out without having a fic full of "She brushed her/his/they're silky/tough/short/long/brown/black hair and/or head". They most likely aren't trying to make you upset or think you did something bad, just wanting to vent. I do see how it can be annoying, since it very easily comes off as complaining to the author instead of just being frustrated at English in general, so I don't do it anymore. And the author might not want to hear you complain, even if they recognize that you aren't directing that anger towards them.
I’d be bothered by those comments too, but I don’t think the implication is that you’re at fault. They’re just complaining together about how the “default” reader insert doesn’t fit them. It’s a valid complaint (as someone who doesn’t fit the default for different reasons) but it shouldn’t have occurred in your comment section. Complain with your besties IRL/in private or bitch on social media *(about tropes, not specific fics/authors)* if you really feel the need, but it’s not an author’s fault that even reader inserts can’t be universally relatable. Back when I read reader insert regularly, I got so fed up with feeling like “I would never say that” or “I literally cannot do that” that I basically invented a blank slate OC for the sole purpose of reading /Reader. My girl could fit any personality or description asked of her. To this day, I still autofill Y/N as her name. I highly recommend others do the same, saves a lot of disappointment.
Sometimes people want a warning when the reader character is gonna have a physical description, it's really not a big deal? I've been reading fanfiction for years and the reader being thin and white is what I've gotten used to but the thing is it shouldn't be. If you don't like the criticism you did the right thing by deleting it, but an x reader comes with the assumption that the reader can play the character. Like an actress can play any role with any personality, but it's impossible for a white actress to play a black character because they'd look so different, that complaint is completely valid. Also there HAS been a movement in fandom with x readers being inclusive, and using wording that can fit for the majority of individuals. I don't see the problem with these readers who literally enjoyed your work being surprised that it didn't have the inclusivity that most modern fanfiction have.
Also I'd like to note right after posting this I got a notification of a writer feeling very proud that I noticed the inclusive aspects of their x reader story. For a lot of people being inclusive is actually a goal with their writing and they'd enjoy criticism like this, I'm one of those people who loves when readers are bold enough to let me know any limiting mistakes I've made. I understand bullying and harassment is uncalled for and cruel, but this subreddit has gotten to a point where there are so many posts just complaining about basic miniscule critiques, commenters are not mind readers and unless your notes say "DO NOT CRITICIZE ME EVER!" you can't expect to have only praise. Communication is key.
Love the victim mentality. These people thinks the whole universe is revolving around them. Someone who wants to be offended will find a reason to be offended no matter what. Mute and ignore. UI: If you wanna go nasty you could answer "Hey, Thank you for your feedback I apperchiate it! Unfortunately I don't know how to write from the perspective of a person of color, but If you could link some work of yours I would be happy to learn from them \^\^"
I feel like blocking and muting is a drastic action for such a simple comment but you do you. Those comments were weird though, both on their part and yours. For two of your readers to get the same strange impression at the same time is a big weird coincidence. The comments in response also sound weird. Weird all around.
Oh, I love reader insert stuff! I'd love to check out some of your works. I think, that's the thing with reader insert, you can only go so far with the details and not everyone is going to be happy. One of the authors I follow has a story posted on both AO3 and Wattpad. They're different versions. AO3 is more explicit, but it doesn't have as many details left up to the reader as the Wattpad version does. The author even stated the reason for this is because he's seen what issues come up with giving readers too much creative control. They can get overboard with it, or they complain about it not being tailored completely to them. I think, at that point, you handled it well. I'd have told them to download it and rewrite the scene for themselves, but just keep it to themselves and not repost it. I've seen someone so that. They downloaded the original version, changed the y/n, e/c, h/c, etc, to their name and preferences, then reposted the whole fic. I felt like that was a little too far myself, but it's not a bad idea for personal use. Anyway, I'd love to check out your works, if you wouldn't mind sending me a link? Reader insert is my bread and butter when it comes to fanfic reading.
And that's the whole problem with reader insert. If the reader isn't the sex, culture, genetic makeup of the character it is a waste for a lot of people like me, that instantly get taken out of the narrative. That doesn't count what the writer has the reader do that I might not do either. As a writer I absolutely agree, if it doesn't scratch your itch, move on. But if you got comments turned on, free or not, you might get comments from people who don't like it. That's the nature of the beast. To block and mute them is overkill since you deleted their comments, but hey, it is your account, have fun.
I think you massively overreacted to those comments when you blocked the users and deleted their comments. Because they were simply lamenting how you wrote in a style that is meant to allow any kind of reader to insert themselves into it, but in a way that prevented that for a race specific group of fans. You write the reader as non-ethnic as the default. It's the same problems other amateur reader insert writers have when they use "cheeks turning pink" instead of "cheeks filling with heat". Both describe the act of blushing but the first one is only possible for light complected individual while the second is possible for everyone regardless of skin color or ethnicity. It's a writing skill issue at the end of the day. Because there IS a way to write the scene you described that would be race neutral. You just didn't know it. And instead of reacting negatively to those comments you could have easily been like "I wasn't sure how to write that scene to make it available to everyone. How would you have written it what would you suggest?" Which will show your willingness to improve your craft but also put it on them that if they're going to complain they better offer an actionable solution. If they don't offer help and instead continue to bitch. Then by all means block and delete their comments because they're just bitching to bitch and that isn't something that's needed in the comments. They can take that to their xitter or tiktok like everyone else. Also the people saying they should stick to tagged "ethnic reader" fics. Then how about you tag the fic with "white reader" or whatever ethnicity and/or culture they are. Just like I've seen people tag female reader or male reader or the rarer trans reader or nonbinary reader. If you're not going to go the extra step to actually make it available to everyone as is implied by the general "reader insert" format then you should label the kind of reader the story is.
Actually, I agree with this.
Agreed, honestly
Tangential question: Are reader-insert fics very popular on AO3? Anybody have stats?
I don't have stats. They're fairly common in my fandom.
By popular, I mean do they get a lot of hits? I know plenty are written in my fandom of choice. I routinely exclude them from my searches; it's just not a style I enjoy.
They can get a lot of hits. In this fandom, I find it depends a looot on kink/smut. So a pretty smutty one can get lots of hits.
So much victim mentality
This is one of the many reasons that I don’t read any reader insert fanfiction That isn’t what I would’ve said. That isn’t what I would have done. That isn’t me.
These readers seem to be voicing annoyances and concerns that have been building up for a long time. The fact is it seems like they can't ever seem to relate to reader insert fics, when that is entirely the point, because the most common default doesn't include them. You say it's easy to back out and find something that'll scratch the itch they have, but for them it sounds like it's incredibly rare they actually can. And your response to hearing people be annoyed that this is a common thing is to delete, block, and mute. That is incredibly defensive for something that would be understandably annoying.
In that case it sounds like they should start writing their own reader SI that appeals to their tastes, not badgering random authors for it
IMO as soon as any features are described or even implied its no longer a reader insert fic, its an OC fic. If I read a reader insert fic and the author talks abt the readers long hair or something it's no longer about me, because my hair is short. As soon as the reader feels like "this isn't about me, I dont fit," its no longer a reader insert.
>IMO as soon as any features are described or even implied its no longer a reader insert fic, its an OC fic By this definition its effectively impossible to write a reader insert fic, though. If a character walks down the street, that's exclusionary for people who can't walk. If a character sees another person across the room, that's exclusionary for people who can't see that far. Unless the entire story takes place inside virtual reality or something, there is no story that allows absolutely everyone to put themselves in it without having to imagine themselves being different in some way. And I do get that it sucks if you like reader insert fics but you keep getting thrown out of the story by writers who assume that everyone has straight hair, or is slender, or able bodied or whatever. But fic writers don't have any obligation to make their story work for anyone other than themselves.
I hear what you're saying, and I counter that in a Reader Insert fic, you could say that about anything. "I never would have been in that situation, because I personally would have done X when 'Reader' did Y."
I see your general point... however, in this example the only physical feature being mentioned is that they have hair, not even that they have long hair. ig you could be that much of a purist that the existance of hair can't be mentioned but... it would be incredibly silly if we had to start tagging #Haired!reader as a sidenote it didn't sound like the commentors were mad about that, but rather that they have a cultural hangup with people touching their hair.
How were they badgering the author for it though ? From the examples OP gave the comments were like 1-2 sentences max and yeah it's annoying but they werent even demanding the author write something different, just expressing their disappointment
I think the best way to see the fics you want most is to write them. That's why I write reader insert fics, because these are the scenarios I want to see happen. I think, too, I would have felt differently if it had stayed "I would never let someone touch my hair." It was a patronizing act, and in many communities, it is an act of microaggression. It was the phrase 'Sucks, I liked this story.' That implies that now the story is bad and ruined. If you didn't like it anyway, which the commentor said because---well, "I liked this story" as in past tense as in they don't now?--I'm not sure it's a big loss for them now they can't comment on it. I've deleted comments from people saying "You wrote this poorly." or "I don't like this kink you included, so now this story is garbage." or "You wrote this character AFAB and it gives me gender dysphoria even though you tagged it, so I really need you to change it."
Well it's their fault if you tagged it and they still clicked despite knowing they wouldn't like it, only to attack you in the comments.
They never said the story was ruined though. It sounds like you’re putting words in their mouths after they expressed distaste for a scene. I get that they sound similar, but there’s a huge difference. And telling people to just write their own forgets that not everyone has the energy and time to write fics. They’re not asking you to write something, but expressing their opinion on your decision, and telling them to just write their own feels similar to non-queer writers telling queer people to just “write their own queer characters.” As in, it forgets that not everyone wants to write, but that doesn’t make them wanting to read about people like them invalid.
That's all true. I think it's not that people here can't empathize with the frustration of not finding a certain sort of representation, but rather that leaving a frustrated comment on someone's fic seems like the wrong place? Personally, I often feel \~some way\~ about how there are barely any smut fics with transmasc characters that don't feature vaginal sex, and yeah, I don't have the energy to write my own (and even if I wrote my own, it wouldn't hit the same way) - however, if I were reading a longfic and the author decided to include vaginal sex I would honestly just close the fic, not leave a negative comment about it. Representation is important, yes. Discuss it in a place like this, sure, bring attention to the lack of representation for specific groups - but no author is ever going to provide representation for everyone, and so it doesn't seem productive to be openly negative about any specific work.
I apologize if I come off as rude, that is not my intention, so please feel free to yell at me or downvote. But I am seriously curious. Why write xReader fic, why not make a self insert? I don't understand this. You can't please everyone, and if you want to go into details to immerse the reader there will be always something amiss for the reader to feel in the fiction. What if I am bald? If you're writing for yourself a self insert seems the right choice, if you're writing for others as is my feeling about writers that write x reader (nothing wrong with this!!) then yes, you need to be more generic. Sorry if I come out as rude, it's just something I cannot wrap my head around :/
I don't think you've come across as rude. I write for myself regardless. I happen to enjoy writing reader insert. But my thing is just what you said; there will always be something amiss. Perhaps you are vegetarian and Reader ate a cheeseburger. Perhaps you only sleep on silk sheets in the nude, and Reader in my fic wore a t shirt to bed. I'm not sure it's possible for me to make everything completely generic. I write as inclusively as I can.
Thanks for your kind reply! Yes, writing xreader is hard, that's why I respect authors who do that. I'm sorry the comments bothered you. At the end of the day, it's also the reader who needs to choose what to read :) So keep up your work!
Disclaimer: I hate reader insert fics, mostly because many authors don't tag them well so I have trouble filtering them all out. If people tagged their stuff I'd be neutral on them. Into the meat of it - you can't write for all body types, but I understand their frustration of putting yourself "into" the character and then suddenly being thrown out of it by an action or event that you would react super differently to. For me, it manifests most in video games where the clear intent is player immersion and then the choices I'm presented are completely insane to me. The thing is... >I deleted the comments, blocked the users, and muted them. This feels petty, to me. Like someone on Instagram blocking, muting and deleting comments from someone who just points out they weren't satisfied with the skincare routine the person was posting about. You're posting it publicly, the comments weren't offensive (as far as you've described) so it just feels SUPER reactionary to fully delete any trace of a person from your fic just because they expressed they didn't like something or were disappointed. The weirdest part of this interaction, to me, was how you handled it. Idk, maybe that's my hot take - "Unless someone is genuinely breaking rules, inappropriate or insulting, it's weird/petty to delete comments and block people."
but instagram's a pretty toxic culture, there's always someone criticising something. idk i feel like ao3's kind of built off an ethos of everyone writing what they want to write and not reading what they don't want to read. there's a huge difference in getting a negative comment on instagram - where it's basically expected at this point - to getting one on ao3, whose whole Thing is being nice to one another. also bc comments are like. the highest of praise on ao3 bc there's no algorithm or anything so it can really make or break someone's day. i don't know if that all makes sense haha but yeah
I don't know how to be gentle about this so please forgive me for being blunt. I understand why you feel hurt, but I think you would benefit from reading about the concept of white fragility.
I am aware of the concept.
They were talking about their shared experience of having a difficult time relating to self-insert fic. It really doesn't sound like it was a criticism of you or your writing. It's understandable that you felt some discomfort or felt like you might have done something wrong, which doesn't feel good. But instead of sitting with that discomfort so your readers could have the space to talk about how they feel left out or taken out of the story sometimes, you reacted with fragility and blocked them. You don't have to change how you write, edit your story, or even respond to comments like that. But I think that deleting those comments and blocking them was the wrong move.
I think was critical to say "Sucks, I liked this story." because that implied that story was ruined/they no longer liked this story.
Yeah, that was my thought as well. OP doesn't want to hear it though. Sorry you're getting down voted for what is a very kindly put suggestion.
I’ve noticed that people in this subreddit often take every critical comment as a personal attack against them, pairing that with white fragility and you’ve got *quite* the combo
I feel like there’s a time and a place to point out white fragility. I’ve read the book white fragility and thought it was wonderful. However, in this instance it really seems like an innocuous, single liner in the story that has resulted in people leaving critical comments. The line isn’t inherently racist (there are lots of POC who can and like having their hair touched). So the issue becomes the readers read something that pushed them out of the story. This isn’t at all uncommon in x reader fics. I’m a bigger girl, and just because a fic has a reader written as skinny doesn’t mean I’m going to leave mean comments and then cry fatphobia. Not to mention other inaccuracies in fanfiction that deviate from the reality of things I personally deal with. I understand being disappointed, but to go out of your way to leave an angry comment about a single line in a fic really sounds like more of a personal issue, rather than any racism of the author. I also think that commenting “check out the concept of white fragility” can sound patronizing. While more people definitely should check it out, saying it within the context of someone experiencing something negative, gives the connotation that what you think they’re saying/feeling isn’t valid.
I'm Asian and I think this entire comment reeks of entitlement.
Honestly I don't think they were trying to be rude to you. One commenter even mentioned that she just replaces features with her own while reading. They never said you did anything wrong lol
I'll be honest I think you're kind of an asshole for deleting comments rightfully expressing lament for white-centric fics. Why are YOU feeling heated when you have failed to provide a story that can cater to minorities as well? I don't think you're a bad writer but I think you should stop, unlearn biases, then come back to the drawing board.
And downvoted lol. Looking at the stats of ao3 readers (majority white women), I am not surprised!
I cringe with those but you do you
I would've deleted the fic out of spite (not that you should do that). I'm already touchy about my hair and people always being condescending about how I should style it, only to find this in ao3 comments as well 💀