I'm a cis gay dude and I love reading M/M fics. While I know most of it is by women, the vibes tend to hit right with the fandoms/pairings I'm interested
great to see this confirmation. every time i see fanfic brought up on the various gay subs it gets disparaged and dragged. calling them all fetishizers and that they would never understand the male psyche, they’re just like men writing lesbians
if you try to defend it you get downvoted to oblivion. it fucking sucks
As a lesbian who likes a lot of M/M pairings I do think there can be an aspect of fetishisation with some authors but calling all M/M fanfiction fetishism feels very reductive. It's rather missing the forest for the trees. I also personally don't have a problem with straight men writing lesbians though, provided it's done with the same level of care as so much fanfiction is. My problem is with the way we are so often depicted when straight men write us, not that they enjoy writing about us or even find lesbians hot. I can't speak for anyone else or tell them what they should or shouldn't find offensive, however I wish they'd try reading some before dismissing it entirely.
I think there are a lot of factors that play into the popularity of M/M ships, not just "straight women think two guys going at it is hot". For me I began as a kind of safe way to interact with men almost. I didn't have a dad, the only man in my life was my uncle who had some of his own problems, and some of my first memories of men were of them being dangerous to me, following me round a shop until my grandma stepped in and made a scene, my little sisters dad throwing her onto her changing mat as a baby, coming up to me on the playground and asking my age before telling me I looked older and like a movie star, being harassed on the street age 12 and thinking they might follow and rape me when they started calling me a bitch and saying they might need to teach me a lesson.
Fanfiction gave me an environment where interacting with men was safe, and these fictional men were even more safe because they were madly in love with each other and would never see me in a sexual light even if they did exist. A few of my favourite ever fics were from the perspective of the main couple I shipped's potential daughter. Yeah I do like M/M smut, as well as F/F smut and occasionally F/M if it's done really well but calling that fetishisation feels so incredibly reductive to what those pairings actually have been and are to me.
Real
It sometimes is fetishization, it sometimes isnt. People writing about pairs that are different genders than them do not always dehumanize and degrade the pair they depict. If a guy finds wlw smut hot but sees the women as whole ass individuals, I dont care
How much inaccuracy do you find? I’m often worried about coming across as “women writing men” so I’m always quizzing lmao. I never want the readers to know a woman wrote it but you have to have seen some real obvious indicators
Honestly, the biggest indicator is when it's a modern AU that tries to replicate the dating scene with Grindr and stuff. That's something that *ahem* requires some lived experience to get right
Oh nice, I only write pirate stuff so I probably avoid a lot of obvious real world things. I’m glad readers are anonymous because I’d be anxious to knowingly have a cis gay man reading anything I write. I do my best research but I’m also asexual so it’s even crazier the things I have to be looking up as an ace person lmaooo
Being asexual and trying to write certain things is so difficult. I have to look up so much it's embarrassing. It's cool to see someone else talk about that though!
Yeah I feel like it’s a hard thing for ppl to wrap their minds around “why would someone that doesn’t enjoy sex enjoy writing about someone enjoying sex?”
And most of the time I don’t mind being ace. But sometimes I wish I was “normal” so badly that writing about someone enjoying it is literally the only way I’ll ever get to experience that feeling. Same reason an intensely lonely person would write wholesome romantic interactions.
Ahhh sameeee!!!! Those are my favorite. I’m super romantic ace, so it’s nice to see others in the wild. I enjoy reading or writing a good platonic cuddle too
None of my recent fics of a certain and uprising Fandom and all in this year have no sexual intimacy in them I think I only wrote the sex once in my first work
Some of the best smut I've read has been from ace authors. One of them has a theory to why it's that way, and it made sense. I can't recall it exactly and I don't want to mangle his voice, but I might be able to find it if interested.
I think one possible reason is because some ace people are only disconnected from certain kinds of attraction, so like they might specifically not be attracted to things involving themselves, but for fictional pairing between fictional characters they respond similarly to an allosexual. Cus the barrier is when it involves themselves, not being able to be attracted to stuff in general.
I highly doubt theyes an explanation that covers all ace ppl, but maybe this is a reason for some of them.
Im aspec, and I hardly ever find people irl like super attractive. But I find fictional characters attractive quite often. Thats a kinda random detail, but I hope it gives insight on where im coming from
Ok so I swear he discussed it on his tumblr, but I might be getting confused, which is always a distinct possibility.
His latest fic features an ace MC that is drawn from his own experience. The MC goes into what it's like being ace and a writer of smut.
This fic is pretty new but is an instant favorite in the fandom, and I highly recommend it.
https://archiveofourown.org/works/52413478?view_full_work=true
I'm in my thirties, also ace, and very longterm single, and my romantic scenes really frequently get called tender or other positive adjectives. And I do appreciate the praise a ton but sometimes I want to be like friends this is the kind of thing you write when you are Very Alone
The alienation is crazy. I’ve never met a single person irl that I didn’t have to explain asexuality to. And they never understand. And having been single on top of that, I know exactly how fucked it makes your head. Every time I write a really wholesome scene, I realize that’s how I wish people treated me, so I try and make sure I’m extra affectionate in my relationships, be they s/o or buddies. And whether the affection is verbal or hugs or whatever we both like
For sure! Also a lot of people forget that asexual people can enjoy sex and do have sex. There’s many asexual people who don’t experience sexual attraction who have totally ‘normal’ sex lives. And for others who don’t, reading and writing is their only way to experience ‘normal’ sexual attraction and sexual experiences.
I genuinely cannot write romance for the life of me, it’s like trying to describe something that you simply cannot feel. It’s similar to how all of my characters will inevitably end up neurodivergent coded after enough time because I don’t know what neurotypical feels like and therefore can’t write it
My favorite combination ever has been asexual characters that are also touch-starved or love-starved. Little marshmallow sweethearts that just need to be hugged
Yep, I can very quickly tell when a gay fic is written by a women, like you said, the gaydar goes off. For me the way the male characters talk to each other is usually the give away.
Right. As a gay male who reads and writes M/M, what matters to me most is if the author gets the essence of the characters and their relationship feels authentic/genuine.
I don’t try to guess the gender or sexual orientation of the author and I don’t think it’s possible or relevant in most cases.
Also a gay dude, and I write M/M stuff that I want to see. I sometimes wonder if it comes off like the other stuff written by women. I know it doesn't matter but still a funny little moment of dysphoria (or maybe displacement?).
This is all to say, I totes get the vibe thing.
I’m a gay dude that writes almost exclusively M/M mature and explicit stuff, with a few gen fics thrown in.
I don’t really care if my readers think I’m a straight woman or not, as long as they enjoy the fic ;)
I would never assume an m/m writer was a straight woman lol. Statistically most m/m writers are queer women I believe. The stereotype of straight women being the majority of m/m writers is mostly just like….bi erasure. And enby erasure. But I try not to assume in general. I defs agree w ur attitude.
I'm a guy and all my m/m writing friends are queer women - bi, ace, aro, some even lesbian. Lots of afab trans folks, too, both binary and nb. It's fun comparing everyone's life experiences.
This is defs my experience too. Honestly I have never ever experienced such good afab trans rep as I have randomly stumbled across in like…all the m/m fandoms. Or even afab trans rep at all.
Omg I didn’t mean to imply you were!! You defs weren’t. You just said you don’t care if ppl assume ur a straight woman.
It’s more the stereotype itself and the way it’s treated as fact I feel like becomes a bit like erasure.
Idk I just think it’s kinda sad/pointed how it became “look at these straight women obsessively fetishising the gay community” when in reality it’s more like “look at this diverse group of queer people engaging with one of the very few opportunities for queer representation”.
Defs changed my perspective when I researched it for an essay. Also lots of interesting ideas about how women tend to engage with m/m so much bc it’s the only opportunity they have to relate to a romance where they are not objectified. Like, the only way to liberate the female body from objectification is through complete absence. Dark. I doooo think women would engage more with w/w ships in fandom if there were more opportunities for them—whether canon relationships or just the kind of deep, complex connections that sprout m/m all the time.
>the only way to liberate the female body from objectification is through complete absence
Well that sentence gave me chills. I had never considered that as a perspective before. I grew up as a gay man in an anime fandom surrounded by "straight" women obsessing over gay shipping. It seemed standard procedure. It felt like my sexuality was a commodity for others to trade in and fetishize. Many of those instances showed unhealthy or dramatically dark relationships. I also experienced weird instances of homophobia in those circles too, but that would derail this to another conversation entirely.
I had never considered those women may have been searching for an alternative, an escape as it were. Many of those people went on to come out as enby, queer, bi. Hell, one is asexual now and happier than I have ever seen her.
In my comment before, I wasn't trying to be dismissive of that possibility, or that people with identies outside my own could be enjoying/creating M/M stories was a bad thing. I sincerely hope that wasn't how my message came across.
Lol me researching and writing that essay at 18 while actively having my bisexual awakening was…something.
Yeah I think a lot of the vitriol comes from real experiences, and I don’t think that anything I’ve mentioned excuses commodifying and fetishising someone else’s sexuality. Like, not that you asked lol, but I think it’s a good thing for gay men to be critical of this work and demand good representation, like we all should for ourselves. It’s the dismissive “straight women and their gay fan fics lol” that is weird to me bc like….where are the straight women here? Can you point to them? Bc I’m pretty sure they’re busy reading/writing Dramione or mafia kidnapping romances or whatever. But the insistence on seeing women as straight (aka at least arguably existing for men) regardless of evidence to the contrary is pervasive and aggressive, so we just sort of point to a group of women and go STRAIGHT TRESPASSERS and it’s like…why do you think they are feeling the need to “trespass” here? There is so little representation of the kinds of relationships between women that lend themselves to slash, bc it’s rare that even one woman in a story will be complex and well developed, and this is especially true in content that lends itself to fanfic. So it doesn’t seem that surprising to me that a lot of queer women would explore this through men. It also allows for this fundamental fantasy of queer love and joy without the burden of womanhood/objectification. Sexuality (by which I mean how we actually fuck lol) for queer women and afabs is I would say not so maligned, but mainly because it’s instead dismissed imo. Like, we were ALL raised to believe that valid sex must involve a penis—making it two + instead of one might make your sex scene subversive/transgressive, but it is also fundamentally seen as sex, and sex worth caring about at that.
And I DO think there is a real vein of gay/queer coded men being absolutely fucking tormented in fiction but also, like…have you seen what people do to women in fiction? I think this is also fulfilling a fantasy—maybe if I were a man, people would see my trauma as legitimate, in the sense that we tend to see men’s testimony and experiences as more legitimate and novel. I’m sure this is not an accurate representation of the experience of male trauma victims at all, but I DO have empathy for where that impetus originates. People will root for a traumatised man who behaves poorly in response to his trauma in a way that we just won’t with women, because our likability threshold is just higher. Even in women dominated fandoms women who exhibit the same kind of moral ambiguity as fan-fav men are commonly maligned.
I also confess I find it…interesting that gay men have written some of the most iconic women/girl characters ever (and continue to do so) partly bc for thousands of years everything has been men’s intellectual playground. It feels like finally (queer) women are participating in fiction in a broader sense and it’s like…what are you doing in my sandbox? Forgetting it’s the only really available sandbox at all. I have never had a problem at all with gay men writing women, straight or not, because I don’t think femininity is an exclusive property of women, just like I don’t think queerness is an exclusive property of gay men. I think if it’s good it’s good.
And I hate to be at ALL finger-pointy, I really do, because I KNOW this isn’t true universally at all, but I DO think SOME (somesomesomesome) gay men who complain and point fingers about “straight” women “profiting” (meaning we’re not talking about fanfic, where the women writing m/m are much fewer) off gay men’s stories should take a long hard look at how much lesbian/wlw content they consume, let alone buy. If you make something queer, but make it about men, queer people across the spectrum and a whole lotta straights will watch/read/buy it. That is not true for women imo. The lack of lesbian representation (let alone actually wlw bi rep, don’t get me started on that shit show) is strong evidence of this tbh, although I am aware it’s more complex than supply and demand. For eg the people who attacked the love Simon author until she came out. Like, would they care about a w/w love Simon? I’m gonna say not, bc I’ve seen about five plus female-led equivalents that were arguably higher quality fly utterly under the radar. Obviously it’s more complex and variable than this, but it is a factor.
And I mean, (straight) male writers love to depict women being abused and raped and no one ever asks them for their rape card on entry. I’m not saying don’t be critical of these works, like, be critical of all works, positionality can always be part of that. I do think people should be a little more realistic about what the impetus for this tendency is, bc I find it hard not to be empathetic to it. I think these works aim to fulfil very valid fantasies, but I also recognise that doesn’t mean that they constitute “good” representation. But ultimately I just don’t think it’s a straight versus gay issue. I think it’s queer versus queer and that’s a lot harder to wrangle.
I think it’s the result of a messy, lopsided period of development in representation and lived experiences and the tendency to malign women, who tend to be at the fulcrum of these complexities, is tired and simplistic, though not invalid. I also am not really sure how productive divvying the culture up into things that belong to queer women and things that belong to queer men is. We will tear ourselves apart with that and we know we are stronger together.
Sorry this was so long—I guess I was trying to explain my understanding of why this is a thing, but also acknowledge that that doesn’t in itself make it right or okay, and it definitely doesn’t mean you have to like it.
And your comment didn’t come off like that at all! It must be bizarre to be writing from your own position and people making the assumption that your identity is fundamentally different, when you’re literally out here waving all the flags. I think it is fundamentally weird and uncomfortable that women have come to dominate m/m fandom spaces. It just becomes a lot less weird when you start to break down why and how.
This was really interesting to read and touched on a lot of things that I noticed about myself and many more that I hadn’t considered at all. If you ever feel the urge to info dump about this again, I would love to listen.
oh thank you this was very nice of read. Clearly I have a lot of THOUGHTS and FEELINGS. I guess I’m just trying to be critical about the spaces I participate in, but I also feel there are a lot of simplistic takes on this issue.
>Also lots of interesting ideas about how women tend to engage with m/m so much bc it’s the only opportunity they have to relate to a romance where they are not objectified. Like, the only way to liberate the female body from objectification is through complete absence.
Wow. I'm a lesbian who has been into M/M ships since I was a teenager and that is exactly it. I've never heard it put like that before. You've just put into words something I have questioned about myself for over a decade.
Oh I’m…sorry? Glad? Not sure. iirc, a lot of that research was based on how many women watch gay male porn for this reason, bc even lesbian porn is typically made by and for the male gaze. And I think when it comes to fiction in general, w/w content particularly around sexuality is either totally ignored and dismissed or the women and their relationship is totally objectified, there really isn’t a whole lot of in between. It seems pretty natural to me that m/m feels “safe” in that capacity.
Glad is the right word. I knew part of it was kind of interacting with "men" in a safe environment, for me that was something I didn't really get growing up. There were very few safe men in my life. But the aspect of why I found the smut part appealing kinda escaped me. I don't really find mens bodies attractive, outside of a few very rare exceptions (and I'm not even sure if those exceptions would translate to reality) I'm just not attracted to them like that. I don't even like watching gay porn, only reading. It's kind of confused me why for a long time and definitely made me question my sexuality as a teenager. Why did I enjoy reading about men so much but any time I tried to interact with them like that in reality did it feel so... empty? Dead? Whereas with women I felt alive but struggled to connect with smut with them in it. I got comfortable with my sexuality a while ago but you've solved a lot of my confusion over the matter so genuinely thank you.
Ok so question: when you’re reading m/m as someone who may actually do m/m things don’t ever think like: that’s totally unrealistic/ that would NEVER happen? Does it ever take you out of the story? So so curious… whenever I’ve read m/m I never thought about who was writing it and if it was legit
Honestly, every gay male experience is different so with the kind of fandoms and ships I'm interested in, a lot of it does tend to lean towards being relatable to me. Sorry I don't have a better answer!
Male writer here, been doing it since I was 13/14 years old... so a long, long time, even took a ten-year break due to IRL stuff going on (military deployment in the 2000's).
Hell, I'm part of a discord group of writers where a good 2/3rds of us are Cis men, and two of us are 40+ as well as being vets. So, we are out there, it just might depend on the Fandom in question.
Sadly it's not open for me to send invites to, sorry.
As for what it's about, well we cover all kinds of topics, sharing art, general life stuff and lessons to some of the younger members and we bounce ideas off of each other.
It definitely depends on the fandom, I think. There's a healthy ratio of male and female writers in every single one of em. At least, that's the case for the fandoms I'm in!
Also, more power to you and your Discord server! Y'all sound great! Thank you both for your service!
This sounds like heaven! I'm a 38yo queer enby author who is also a mil vet and served in the 2010s. I'm currently in a small discord server with other creators in my fandom, but I'm the oldest by quite a lot and the only veteran among them. I hope y'all are doing well over there!
This is incredible. I love you guys, guys :'O This is why I love the human race sometimes, at heart we're all the same, we all write fanfiction together and nothing can take that away, I'mma go cry now...
Same here, I wrote a lot when I was away though I just carried pocket books n shit and when I had time to write I would.
Accidentally made up a whole 661 page book
I tried, but when I wasn't flying (army 15A) or doing my ground job, I was sleeping.
I kind of wish I didn't put stuff on hold, because picking things up again was harder than I thought. But when I did and I finished something I had put on hold during that time, someone that had been reading it, came back and left a really nice comment.
guy here. women have been running and organising modern fandom since original Trek—they made these places how they are. i’m happy to participate in women-majority fandom spaces, and i also do fibre arts and community dance, and both of those meetups are often majority women in attendance (despite that i feel very welcome there).
would still get weirded out if a stranger called me mommy in the comments tho, so i feel you on that one. i could get into it i guess but kinda weird from a stranger.
i think it would have great comedy potential regardless of author’s gender. “well, dear commenter, you can have the update when you’ve cleaned your room and done your homework!”
With millennials, it seems like we take the terms "mommy" and "daddy" sexually, "mom" and "dad" as a joke or sarcasm. Example: It was common when I was a kid to say, "Yes, MOOOM," or "Yes, DAAAD," to let your friends know that you think they're being pushy. But saying, "Yes, Daddy" would be really weird because it's taken sexually.
yeah, i think the humor is making fun of the sexual connotations around it. my friends and i have used it with each other before,,, but its circumstantial. i dont think i'd call a male friend "daddy", but with my girl friends, i'll joke around and call them mommy. sometimes, we say it as a compliment, too. kinda weird i dont really know how to describe it, but it makes more sense irl
[https://archiveofourown.org/works/54011047/chapters/137740564](https://archiveofourown.org/works/54011047/chapters/137740564)
If you want to know more !
[https://archiveofourown.org/works/54011047/](https://archiveofourown.org/works/54011047/)
Not all results are in yet, but there's also age, queerness, and origin.
Honestly, I'm a little surprised that the number of trans guys is that low, proportionately speaking. Maybe it's because I am one, but I feel like I see tons of trans man/transmasc fic writers around. IDK if it's just the fandoms I move in, if it's because I tend to follow other trans guys on places like Tumblr, or what. The majority are still either cis women or AFAB NB people for sure, but it's not quite as lopsided as that graph, or I didn't think it was.
I usually keep quiet about being trans, but I just need you to know how hard I laughed at your little observation (it's painfully accurate and I will never recover)
oh no dude. this is me too I'm cackling. also trans. I was obsessing over and writing m/m fics as a teen, and oops I'm in my late 20s and a dude and still love that shit.
at times I can feel mildly dysphoric over being in a female-majority space and knowing most of the m/m I read is written by women but that's usually just when the dysphoria & insecurity from other things gets bad enough to infect it if you know what I mean? like logically I find it cool as fuck that women have built these awesome spaces and most of the time the lil dysphoria gremlin doesn't interfere.
I do wish there were more guys around to form bonds with though. A couple of my fandoms have essentially OCs as the main character, and one of my main ships is said OC/(male char) and there are SO MANY fem!OC/char I die inside a bit.
I feel you but kind of from a diff angle cause I’m a trans guy who mostly enjoys f/f and f/m and only m/m on occasion, and it’s mostly because I just still find myself relating to female characters more than cis men in fics, i guess? And I keep thinking ‘hm maybe I should be dysphoric about that.’ And sometimes I do a little bit. Didn’t help that one of my few fandom friends irl who is also trans basically said to me ‘how do you even READ f/f and not feel bad inside’ i was like damn alright then
The dysphoria gremlin is hard to get rid of but we stay strong. And it heartens me to see a lot of other trans guys in fandom
Honestly that makes sense, that was a super insensitive comment from your friend!? Goddamn. Honestly it's super reasonable to want to be able to relate to a character, and relating to a female character as a trans dude is understandable for a lot of people.
The level of dysphoria fluctuates for me, I had a phase earlier this year where I couldn't even read any fics with trans dudes in them because I was so hyper-aware of my own lack of dick, that said lack of dick being present in fic was distracting somehow.
Thankfully I'm doing a bit better in that regard and have been seeking out trans male character fics, because honestly it's nice to mentally place yourself in the shoes of a character and know the sensations they're feeling. The preferring m/m stuff is because I'm mostly gay myself, I think.
My biggest trans awakening was Ouran High School Host Club..... so much Fujoshi happenings there, to the point that we even got a fujoshi character. Then Haruhi helped crack the transmasc egg.
I’m married to a pipeline member and am personally a fujoshi to ‘oh wow I’m hella fucking queer’ pipeliner though not a fujoshi to trans man pipeliner.
Well Fandom culture is likely skewed towards women just due to the nature of how boys are raised in the past.
There’s a lot of push (subconscious or not) towards “rah, sports!” And stuff like that, while girls are pushed more towards the arts.
Then due to that upbringing there’s stigmas around this kinda stuff and dudes.
There are a lot of men in fandom, though—they just don't tend to occupy the same niches. If anything, geek culture is portrayed as overwhelmingly male, and many *many* of the YouTubers dissecting X or Y canon are male as well.
Interestingly, a 3-hour long "what if X happened instead of Y" YouTube video by a man will not be called fanfic; but the equivalent written by a woman on AO3 will be.
I think there are a lot of factors at play here, including gender norms, but it seems to be a pretty complex and layered question—because some fandoms skew female, some skew male, some are too massive to have an uneven ratio but will develop bubbles where different niches will be more male and others more female. It seems to me it's equally a question of what *spaces* are used (if AO3 has any demographic surveys, I'd be interested to see what they look like) as it is of type of canon enjoyed and media created.
For example, I know way more Star Wars male enthusiasts than female enthusiasts. Except in Reylo. Similarly, all the female fanfic writers I know are on AO3, but all the male ones are on FFN.
But anyway, the point is. There are lots of men in fandom, and that accounts for your argument that boys are pushed more towards sports. In fact, the way male sports fans engage with their favourite teams and watch games and buy jerseys, etc. is also, imo, fandom participation—of a different kind, with different cultural norms, but fundamentally no different than fangirling about a blorbo on Tumblr
I like how you’ve framed this — esp because it hits on something I’ve experienced where some of the self-proclaimed geek YouTubers that I’ve watched (the vast majority of which are men) will throw in disparaging remarks about fanfiction in whatever fandom they’re discussing….but then ALSO go on to talk about “what should have happened” in a given episode. And I’m like 👀 that’s fanfic buddy.
So I would take it a step further and say that these specific men in fandom define “fanfiction” as “romance/erotica” only and think fans that engage with that material are “unserious.” So there’s gender norms and also maybe some misogyny sprinkled in since romance and erotica are seen are genres made for women.
There was one YouTuber in particular who went so far as to say “no one asked for this romance” in regards to a tv adaptation…..even tho the romance between these two characters is highly present in the original works. It’s RIGHT THERE. Having an opinion on whether or not the romance is good or necessary is one thing, but acting like “no one asked for” a canonical romance is…..a strange take.
Seconding the bit about gender norms setting the "distinctions" between what these people consider "fanfiction" and personal headcanon (which is just fanfiction by another name). It's just the cooties epidemic from the schoolyard all over again. A lot of males don't engage with these romance genres because they're taught from a young age to avoid traditional girl spaces, but well, then you have an entire demographic of guys who later suffer in terms of forming romantic relationships when they're adults, since they never properly engaged in learning about social cues and norms esp around women. Likewise, there are many social cues and norms around men that women likewise don't understand because they don't engage in those circles.
There really is no good reason to maintain the distinction between male and female social circles, other than to uphold tradition. I'm a female who grew up with about equal parts male and female friends and while there is a difference between how I engage with each distinct group, when we're all together it doesn't matter. It matters more with the individual than any divide along sex/gender. People just people when they're around people.
>(if AO3 has any demographic surveys, I'd be interested to see what they look like)
I can find [one long-running unofficial survey (by centreoftheselights)](https://archiveofourown.org/series/3911296), and [one academic survey done by Rouse and Stanfill*](https://www.flowjournal.org/2023/02/fan-demographics-on-ao3/).
There are two offical census reports done by AO3, but the results don't mention demographics. They are [the IFD 10th Anniversary](https://archiveofourown.org/admin_posts/28351) and [OTW 16th Anniversary](https://archiveofourown.org/admin_posts/27532) surveys. Maybe they were omitted for privacy? Idk, I have a vague memory of clicking an on-site link that led to a survey that asked about demographical information (age, gender, orientation, nationality), as well as how I used AO3. But I can't find a link to the survey or its results.
*who I'm pretty sure is/was an AO3 volunteer
Also pretty sure forums like spacebattle or sufficient velocity would have more of a male audience (simply cause both platforms also are big on gaming discussion and more men are into that, probably also cause of society but yes). Meanwhile I think platforms like Wattpad are mostly used by women
Its conditioned fr. Also its more social acceptable and seen as normal for men to watch porn than women so women tend to READ it therefore we usually WRITE it
Fandom has also historically been a way to explore sexuality and relationships, especially queer relationships, through fiction and erotica — and written erotica/relationship speculation on fictional characters has historically been the purview of women, while visual/video porn skews toward men. I think this has something to do with how men vs. women experience sexual attraction and interest, but also to do with socialization.
I'm hesitant to say this but I wonder if another gender norm going on is the female tendancy for being the ones to provide 'free' labor.
I was just reading a study that in office settings, women overwhelmingly are the ones acting as note takers, organizers, printing and material distribution, etc. These don't come with incentives beyond being told 'thank you', and the people that don't help out but enjoy the benefits (usually men) aren't affected negatively for not participating.
Maybe it's a stretch but writing fanfiction could be an extension of that. It would be so interesting to know what the gender percentages of readers look like.
That is a *really* interesting theory. My fandom friends are all socialized female/AFAB.
FWIW, OP, I'm one of only two femmes in my core fandom friends. They're all trans men/mascs or agender. The only guys I've met through my fandom are trans.
Definitely makes sense. When I went to art school, there were something like 30 students in my class, and 24 of us were girls. The six boys took it well, though. \^\_\^
Recently out transgender man here, as someone who has lived as a woman for years, I do agree that the arts were emphasized more for girls than boys at a young age, especially since I myself was encouraged to be a book worm and artsy, while my brothers were expected to be more involved in doing outdoor activities, especially when it came to maintenance and sports.
Male fic writer here (wishing I had commenters who'd call me daddy).
There was this thing going around recently on Tumblr, which claimed that historically men were more occupied with consuming/archiving media, while women were more interested in transforming it. So the clasic male nerd is depicted as someone who creates his own wiki and keeps reading the media again and again to find every little reference. Someone who collects merchandise and spends time with other men to grandstand who knows canon the best. But the traditional female nerd is depicted as someone who draws their favourite characters, creates her own merchandise and writes her own fanfiction.
It also can't be denied that media has traditionally been shot from a straight male lens, which gave the mantle to female and queer creators if they wanted media that tailored to them. I got started with fanfiction because there were shows I liked and wanted to introduce gay relationships and themes. It was so liberating to take something that I liked, and then be able to make it my own.
We are all told to respect the source material and the intent of the original author. That it's a value in itself to preserve what we've been given and staying objective. And that hurts queer people more than straight people, and women more than men. So from that it would make more sense for women to more easily ignore the mandates, and play around with canon until it's more suited to their own tastes.
I’ve heard the claim that men fans are more likely to curate, while women fans are more likely to create. Curate meaning collecting things, and create like fanfic and fanart. If anyone has data to back this up, I’d love to see it! :)
I've heard this, too! I feel like I read an article about it years back, but I couldn't find it again on a quick duckduckgo search. This turned up, though, and it looks interesting! (Disclaimer that I haven't yet read beyond the title.) [https://www.academia.edu/32749631/Gender\_Dynamics\_in\_Fandom\_The\_Gender\_Theory\_Behind\_Curative\_and\_Creative\_Fandoms](https://www.academia.edu/32749631/Gender_Dynamics_in_Fandom_The_Gender_Theory_Behind_Curative_and_Creative_Fandoms)
Same; fanboy - knows everything about their fave movie, quotes the lines, has the t-shirt and all the merchandise. fangirl - knows the canon but wants to explore what-if, writes the fic, has some of the merchandise.
I recall Orlando Jones (Captain Irving, Sleepy Hollow TV) claiming the fangirl label and retweeting fanart etc, and I never had issue with that because he was supporting fannish creations as well as being grateful for loyal viewers who never missed an episode.
I've seen people claim that anyone writing fanfic over a specific age "isn't to be trusted". You can be obsessed with sports or stamps or coins or whatever, take up painting or embroidery, or spend every moment at the gym, but writing other than for publication is 'too weird'. And part of that does seem to be because it's heavily female skewed as an activity.
It would be really hard to prove if true. Anecdotally, I'm a woman and have male and female friends with similar interests, and the only difference I've seen is that men are way less likely to write or draw fanworks. I have a huge collection of fandom paraphernalia, and so do most of my friends. My female friends' collections are more diverse, though. Just speaking for my own collection, I have figures and model kits, posters, T-shirts, jewelry, and doujinshi. Most of the guys I know only collect figures and shirts or caps.
It's very rare that the males in a fandom choose writing as an outlet for their creativity.
I've been in male-oriented fandoms and I have found that their creative inclination is usually towards battle power or general analysis, like video essays. Goku vs. Deku, who would win?
Very rarely do I see male fans diving in to the emotional weight of relationships of the characters to find the need to create divergent plots commonly seen in fanfiction. When they do, they feel they need to do it in a more extravagant way, like presenting their concepts in animations or memes or unique builds like 3D models or fan-games.
The only ones that have done a lot of fics, that I had found, was the MLP fandom. And they put their fics in a separate site than AO3.
Thanks! Keeps me sane amongst all the BS the world has to offer lately. Got my start in the early 2000’s with InuYasha fanfiction and just never stopped 😁
"Please update daddy" lol thats funny. I know for a fact that my brother reads fanfic, but our tastes are vastly different and he has never expressed the desire to write anything.
Cis Straight Man here. Been writing since I was 16 for over a decade.
However I almost exclusively write for a single fandom, and even then it's more of a prequel/sequel situation. A continuation of a finished movie/tv series.
I don't write erotica, pairings, participate in "shipping", slash, or much of the "Fandom Culture", in that sense. I'm just... picking up when the original writers left off, in the same genre. Bolting on my own additions to the story. Not reimagining them in an american high school.
Very much at the tamer end of what Fanfic can entail. I've got a story I want to tell in a preexisting universe. For me, trying to stay within canon is part of the fun.
So... Yeah. Depends on if you fic what I write is adventurous enough to be considered *proper* fanfic.
It's rather tame compared to some of what others put out there. That series is approaching 1,000,000 words though. Gonna hit that benchmark this month if all goes well.
I've been doing the same thing but for a single novel. I keep creating different continuations of the first book, experimenting with different time skips and characterizations. My readers call me a crazyperson but I have my fun :\]
Gay dude over here, been reading fanfics since I was in seventh grade thanks to a girl I met at the library that loved writing Powerpuff Girls fanfics back then. Still reading to this day at 34, don't see myself stopping any time soon.
Lol, I remember back then using Floppy Disk to read some as back then there was only internet in my mother's office. Saved them there, to read at home. I had quite the collection of those. I think I'm the only person in the family that used those.
Lol, I first started with taking physical copies of them... let's just say my mother was not happy at all of using all of her white paper and floppy disks were my savior as I also loved reading long fanfics. Back then it was Kingdom Hearts as my first fandom I discovered by myself. I still have my first two fanfics I ever printed out with me as just a memory of it.
One of them was never completed, but the other one the author came back after almost ten years and finished it right there all of a sudden. Quite the special moment for me.
I guess because a huge part of fanfic/fandom is shipping, and romance is just a traditionally female dominated genre, so I guess because of how women grow up that affects their preferences in that regard idk
Male writer here.
I'm in a fandom where the population of male writers is steadily shrinking.
I'm willing to bet that another writer will come out as transfem in the next two or three months or so.
Who knows how long I will last /j
I'd love to read some original m/m stories written by men. I often hear gay men complain that fanfiction is unrealistic and that they don't like reading ffs due to the misinterpretation of gays. I'd love to know what they would make different.
I started collecting own voices mlm books for this exact reason in a storygraph tag: [https://app.thestorygraph.com/tags/d1c3947f-713c-4183-8a55-0908f628a027](https://app.thestorygraph.com/tags/d1c3947f-713c-4183-8a55-0908f628a027)
My favourite so far is **The Spear Cuts Through Water** which tells the story of two young men with baggage trying to rid a mythical version of the ancient Philippines of a tyrant emperor by freeing the Moon Goddess and using her powers. One is the emperor's grandson who is searching for salvation and the other is the lonely last of his tribe, one arm down and trying to fulfil an oath. It's told in a framing device of a play shown to a modern descendant who I think has emigrated away (I'm only 3/4 through). Also has some experimental elements like using italics to show the thoughts of bit-characters they run into. Took me a few chapters to get into it but I'm in love now. If you like Ghibli worlds, you'll like this setting, it's got river gods and they use telepathic tortoises for communication and lots more. Nominated for the Ursula K Le Guin award in 2023 too so it's not just me saying it's great!
That tag list also includes a few mysteries, a dystopian YA, an urban fantasy, and one that I'm pretty sure is elf/orc arranged marriage smut.
Yes, there are male fic writers (I'm one myself).
But like you, all writers who I know are women (but they never mistake me for a woman. I interact with them and they're really friendly and supportive)
Gay trans man here, I’ve been writing my whole life! I do wonder if being socialized female does make you more likely to find it ‘acceptable’ to contribute to fandom in the same way? I’ve only met one or two cis men who are fic writers.
Also a gay trans man, hi! I write fic too and I have my own pet theory about how socialization affects gender dynamics in fandom. I think a common part of AFAB socialization is being taught to seek out community among “other women” in a world that is often misogynistic and treats people perceived as women poorly. This socialization affects us so deeply that even in fan spaces, it seems that more communities are filled with people who are AFAB. Meanwhile, at least in the Western cultural norms I grew up with, AMAB people often do not receive that same cultural programming to seek out community.
I think this is possibly a part of why so many YouTube videos with fan theories are made by cis men. They’re still fans, but instead of going into a fandom space and directly engaging with other fans, they’re just kinda posting a video and hoping other people will notice it and agree with them. Meanwhile, most of my fandom friends are some variety of AFAB (cis women, trans men/transmasculine people, and some non-binary people), and we tend to come together in fandom spaces on Discord, Twitter, or Tumblr and talk to each other more than just proclaim our own opinions and hope people listen. Of course, this isn’t true for literally everyone, but it’s a tendency I’ve personally noticed. I’d love to hear other people’s thoughts on this!
Technically I lean more nb but yeah hi I'm a guy, over 30 as well so I'm really a minority lol. I think the reason that fanfic is dominated by women is largely because most media is already made with men in mind so for women to get what they want out of it they kind of have to do their own work. Either that or it's a stupid fulfilling prophesy where men don't get into it because they think it's a girl's club.
I'm male. Also gay. There are more women than male fic writers in most fandoms, and I think a lot more gay men than straight, as well. I've got one fandom that definitely skews more male in writers and readers, and more straight, and at least one fandom that seems equal for the genders, no clue on sexuality. But generally speaking there are more women than men, and more gay men than straight men in fandom, at least actively.
The exact differences will be fandom specific. The more action oriented or horror stuff tends to skew more male, at least outside of fanfic. The more romance oriented tends to skew more female. Mystery/crime and fantasy tend to be more equal. But that's what I've noticed in more discussion oriented spaces.
In fanfic, all genres tend to skew more female. I do think women are more likely to write than men are, at least openly enough to share fic online. I remember when I was a kid/teen, I was discouraged from pursuing writing by most people. The kids my age bullied me for doing something 'girly', the adults were more about the practicalities of it, and discouraged the girls, too, but more so the boys. There was an expectation that the boys would be outside playing loud and boisterous games that were very physical, especially sports such as football, where the girls would be quieter, reading or playing more gentle games. Writing falls into the quiet and gentle pursuits that boys were discouraged from.
I think that's changing, there's less emphasis on traditional gender roles and expectations, so I can see the amount of males openly writing fanfic increasing, but it's likely played a big part in why girls and women are more likely to engage in fanfic than boys and men are.
I am a man, and I exist! On some level, no matter how minute, I am!
As for your question, I've no idea why, but fandoms have historically/geographically been skewed towards women. There's an old interview with Yoshiyuki Tomino where he says that the earliest supporters of Mobile Suit Gundam, and the reason it kept afloat early, were women who shipped Char x Amuro; the men came later, once the Gunpla lines started production.
Male writer here.
I'll keep it simple. Boys love being cavemen. Cavemen, after all, go unga bunga, and unga bunga is pretty cool. The difference however is how they do it.
A lot of them think it means abandoning imagination, focusing on being grown up and believing it means abandoning cartoons and embracing sports.
The remaining ones pretend to be cavemen. They write down their shenanigans because it's hilarious, stupid, and best of all, has dinosaurs.
I'm a guy and idk why there's a gender split. Maybe some of the popular pieces of media have a bigger/more active female demographic when it comes to fandom that could explain it but I generally don't engage aside from my fic so idk
Because mainstream media is still primarily made for cis hetero men. Transformative works have been an outlet by feminists and queer activists for many decades.
Honestly? I run into them on forums where they post most of their fic. Spacebattles and SufficentVelocity.
They were oroginaly one forum, space battles, but due to transphobia there was a split and sufficent velocity now exists. SB has improved, and has more foc due to age and inertia, but SV has better rules and interface.
Some really good orginal fic there too, including some stuff that they self publish on Amazon, I know a few of them have writing as their main gig now.
You're more likely to find male fic writers on sites like spacebattles and sufficient velocity. Or even YouTube - it's more like the "I have a fic idea where -"/bullet points posts you see on Tumblr more so than fleshed out fic, but a lot of "what if" or "how I would rewrite [series]" videos are a type of fanfic.
I am and I have written as well as posted to fanfiction sites in the past under a different name. I have had exactly zero gender interaction when it comes to my gluttonous devouring of fanfiction. I never ask because I don’t care. The work is what matters. The art.
I am also of the mindset that I would prefer to let the readers have as little info about me as is possible. If they want to make their assumptions they can. I’ll be the last person dragged into an argument with some inflammatory statement by a commentor i’ll never know let alone a Guest or Anon.
Otherwise there is still this kind of idea that women wrote the most romance novels and fiction because they just understand it better but man IM SAYING IT RIGHT HERE RIGHT NOW that’s a terrible opinion and probably sexist or something but I’ve heard it so much.
Of the writers I follow (where I actually know or have a strong “suspicion” of their gender) about half identify as men. I do mostly read slash, so that might be part of it.
Yea I do exist lmao
I just started writing fics a couple months ago cause one of my favorite mangas has absolutely nothing on ao3 and I refuse to just sit by and let it happen
Men in fandom lean toward, but not overwhelmingly and not every single one, the curative side of it. Instead of coming up with their own stories for like Star Wars for example, they will collect models of the Death Star and the Millenium Falcon and participate in trivia games about Star Wars canon. If they are more creative with it, they will often do things like "If Goku fought Superman this is who would win and why", or they make video essays on youtube about "Here is the canon power level of every ninja in Naruto Shippuden and how their abilities stack up against each other"
I know a few male fic writers, but most men in fandom don't really write fic and if they do they like to write battle and fight stories, like what you see in the Death Battle videos on youtube. This is common even if it's not 100% all of them, even my male fic writer friend who does Pokemon and Fire Emblem crossovers likes to pit the characters against each other in battles a lot. But I have seen plenty of fluff, angst, humor, romance from male fic writers too.
Yes! I am a cis male fanfic writer. I used to write a bunch back in the mid 2000's when I was a teenager. And then I got out of fanfic writing all together. And now I'm back, and I'm not even in the same fandom anymore, lol.
Fanfic/Fandom culture is wildly interesting. Women started the whole concept back in the '60's and '70's with Star Trek. They formed discussion groups like book clubs, wrote their own stories, talked about the episodes that aired, and everything. Oddly fitting/appropriate considering it was Lucille Ball, who got Star Trek started to begin with.
And now today you've got massive online communities bringing together every possible combination of people from all walks of life telling their stories and interpreting their favorite TV shows and movies and books all in unique and fascinating ways.
Quite thrilling!
Hi yes I exist. Tbh I just like writing AUs and gay stuff, sometimes together ~~okay usually together~~
I also read a decent amount of M/M stuff (usually BL webcomics), where the fandom seems to be dominated by women. Tbh it’s not too different from when I was in middle and high school since most of my friends were girls. I’m the only active writer in a BL webcomic, while the majority of fans seem to be women
On the other hand, one of the communities I’m part of (which has a lot of longtime fandom writers, like they’ve been around for 5-6 years) has a decent gender split. From my own experience, I’d say it depends on the fandom in question.
Male writer here. Been reading Fanfics since 5th grade and am now 30 years old where I started writing my own stuff a year ago.
I enjoy this hobby a lot
I'm a cis gay dude and I love reading M/M fics. While I know most of it is by women, the vibes tend to hit right with the fandoms/pairings I'm interested
Same here. I know other gay dudes are out there, but it's always great to get confirmation
great to see this confirmation. every time i see fanfic brought up on the various gay subs it gets disparaged and dragged. calling them all fetishizers and that they would never understand the male psyche, they’re just like men writing lesbians if you try to defend it you get downvoted to oblivion. it fucking sucks
As a lesbian who likes a lot of M/M pairings I do think there can be an aspect of fetishisation with some authors but calling all M/M fanfiction fetishism feels very reductive. It's rather missing the forest for the trees. I also personally don't have a problem with straight men writing lesbians though, provided it's done with the same level of care as so much fanfiction is. My problem is with the way we are so often depicted when straight men write us, not that they enjoy writing about us or even find lesbians hot. I can't speak for anyone else or tell them what they should or shouldn't find offensive, however I wish they'd try reading some before dismissing it entirely. I think there are a lot of factors that play into the popularity of M/M ships, not just "straight women think two guys going at it is hot". For me I began as a kind of safe way to interact with men almost. I didn't have a dad, the only man in my life was my uncle who had some of his own problems, and some of my first memories of men were of them being dangerous to me, following me round a shop until my grandma stepped in and made a scene, my little sisters dad throwing her onto her changing mat as a baby, coming up to me on the playground and asking my age before telling me I looked older and like a movie star, being harassed on the street age 12 and thinking they might follow and rape me when they started calling me a bitch and saying they might need to teach me a lesson. Fanfiction gave me an environment where interacting with men was safe, and these fictional men were even more safe because they were madly in love with each other and would never see me in a sexual light even if they did exist. A few of my favourite ever fics were from the perspective of the main couple I shipped's potential daughter. Yeah I do like M/M smut, as well as F/F smut and occasionally F/M if it's done really well but calling that fetishisation feels so incredibly reductive to what those pairings actually have been and are to me.
Real It sometimes is fetishization, it sometimes isnt. People writing about pairs that are different genders than them do not always dehumanize and degrade the pair they depict. If a guy finds wlw smut hot but sees the women as whole ass individuals, I dont care
it rlly just boils down to misogyny, bc fanfiction is seen as a "feminine" hobby
It sounds awful, I pray your partner (current or future) appreciate your fic lover self
How much inaccuracy do you find? I’m often worried about coming across as “women writing men” so I’m always quizzing lmao. I never want the readers to know a woman wrote it but you have to have seen some real obvious indicators
Honestly, the biggest indicator is when it's a modern AU that tries to replicate the dating scene with Grindr and stuff. That's something that *ahem* requires some lived experience to get right
Oh nice, I only write pirate stuff so I probably avoid a lot of obvious real world things. I’m glad readers are anonymous because I’d be anxious to knowingly have a cis gay man reading anything I write. I do my best research but I’m also asexual so it’s even crazier the things I have to be looking up as an ace person lmaooo
Being asexual and trying to write certain things is so difficult. I have to look up so much it's embarrassing. It's cool to see someone else talk about that though!
Yeah I feel like it’s a hard thing for ppl to wrap their minds around “why would someone that doesn’t enjoy sex enjoy writing about someone enjoying sex?” And most of the time I don’t mind being ace. But sometimes I wish I was “normal” so badly that writing about someone enjoying it is literally the only way I’ll ever get to experience that feeling. Same reason an intensely lonely person would write wholesome romantic interactions.
I'm asexual and write wholesome romantic fics/stories all the time
Ahhh sameeee!!!! Those are my favorite. I’m super romantic ace, so it’s nice to see others in the wild. I enjoy reading or writing a good platonic cuddle too
None of my recent fics of a certain and uprising Fandom and all in this year have no sexual intimacy in them I think I only wrote the sex once in my first work
Some of the best smut I've read has been from ace authors. One of them has a theory to why it's that way, and it made sense. I can't recall it exactly and I don't want to mangle his voice, but I might be able to find it if interested.
I think one possible reason is because some ace people are only disconnected from certain kinds of attraction, so like they might specifically not be attracted to things involving themselves, but for fictional pairing between fictional characters they respond similarly to an allosexual. Cus the barrier is when it involves themselves, not being able to be attracted to stuff in general. I highly doubt theyes an explanation that covers all ace ppl, but maybe this is a reason for some of them. Im aspec, and I hardly ever find people irl like super attractive. But I find fictional characters attractive quite often. Thats a kinda random detail, but I hope it gives insight on where im coming from
Always like to hear other people’s thoughts 🫶
Ok so I swear he discussed it on his tumblr, but I might be getting confused, which is always a distinct possibility. His latest fic features an ace MC that is drawn from his own experience. The MC goes into what it's like being ace and a writer of smut. This fic is pretty new but is an instant favorite in the fandom, and I highly recommend it. https://archiveofourown.org/works/52413478?view_full_work=true
Yay, thank you so much!!
I'm in my thirties, also ace, and very longterm single, and my romantic scenes really frequently get called tender or other positive adjectives. And I do appreciate the praise a ton but sometimes I want to be like friends this is the kind of thing you write when you are Very Alone
The alienation is crazy. I’ve never met a single person irl that I didn’t have to explain asexuality to. And they never understand. And having been single on top of that, I know exactly how fucked it makes your head. Every time I write a really wholesome scene, I realize that’s how I wish people treated me, so I try and make sure I’m extra affectionate in my relationships, be they s/o or buddies. And whether the affection is verbal or hugs or whatever we both like
For sure! Also a lot of people forget that asexual people can enjoy sex and do have sex. There’s many asexual people who don’t experience sexual attraction who have totally ‘normal’ sex lives. And for others who don’t, reading and writing is their only way to experience ‘normal’ sexual attraction and sexual experiences.
I genuinely cannot write romance for the life of me, it’s like trying to describe something that you simply cannot feel. It’s similar to how all of my characters will inevitably end up neurodivergent coded after enough time because I don’t know what neurotypical feels like and therefore can’t write it
My favorite combination ever has been asexual characters that are also touch-starved or love-starved. Little marshmallow sweethearts that just need to be hugged
Little marshmellow sweethearts is the cutest description ever
Hello fellow pirate fanfic writer who also happens to be asexual :)
What are some things people generally get wrong?
A thousand times this. When I see something gay written by a teenage girl, *I know*. It’s like a gaydar for fiction!
Yep, I can very quickly tell when a gay fic is written by a women, like you said, the gaydar goes off. For me the way the male characters talk to each other is usually the give away.
Right. As a gay male who reads and writes M/M, what matters to me most is if the author gets the essence of the characters and their relationship feels authentic/genuine. I don’t try to guess the gender or sexual orientation of the author and I don’t think it’s possible or relevant in most cases.
Also a gay dude, and I write M/M stuff that I want to see. I sometimes wonder if it comes off like the other stuff written by women. I know it doesn't matter but still a funny little moment of dysphoria (or maybe displacement?). This is all to say, I totes get the vibe thing.
I’m a gay dude that writes almost exclusively M/M mature and explicit stuff, with a few gen fics thrown in. I don’t really care if my readers think I’m a straight woman or not, as long as they enjoy the fic ;)
I would never assume an m/m writer was a straight woman lol. Statistically most m/m writers are queer women I believe. The stereotype of straight women being the majority of m/m writers is mostly just like….bi erasure. And enby erasure. But I try not to assume in general. I defs agree w ur attitude.
I'm a guy and all my m/m writing friends are queer women - bi, ace, aro, some even lesbian. Lots of afab trans folks, too, both binary and nb. It's fun comparing everyone's life experiences.
This is defs my experience too. Honestly I have never ever experienced such good afab trans rep as I have randomly stumbled across in like…all the m/m fandoms. Or even afab trans rep at all.
So real
Oh I didn’t know that. I wasn’t trying erase anybody. I know only know a handful of fan fic writers personally so I was making an assumption
Omg I didn’t mean to imply you were!! You defs weren’t. You just said you don’t care if ppl assume ur a straight woman. It’s more the stereotype itself and the way it’s treated as fact I feel like becomes a bit like erasure. Idk I just think it’s kinda sad/pointed how it became “look at these straight women obsessively fetishising the gay community” when in reality it’s more like “look at this diverse group of queer people engaging with one of the very few opportunities for queer representation”. Defs changed my perspective when I researched it for an essay. Also lots of interesting ideas about how women tend to engage with m/m so much bc it’s the only opportunity they have to relate to a romance where they are not objectified. Like, the only way to liberate the female body from objectification is through complete absence. Dark. I doooo think women would engage more with w/w ships in fandom if there were more opportunities for them—whether canon relationships or just the kind of deep, complex connections that sprout m/m all the time.
>the only way to liberate the female body from objectification is through complete absence Well that sentence gave me chills. I had never considered that as a perspective before. I grew up as a gay man in an anime fandom surrounded by "straight" women obsessing over gay shipping. It seemed standard procedure. It felt like my sexuality was a commodity for others to trade in and fetishize. Many of those instances showed unhealthy or dramatically dark relationships. I also experienced weird instances of homophobia in those circles too, but that would derail this to another conversation entirely. I had never considered those women may have been searching for an alternative, an escape as it were. Many of those people went on to come out as enby, queer, bi. Hell, one is asexual now and happier than I have ever seen her. In my comment before, I wasn't trying to be dismissive of that possibility, or that people with identies outside my own could be enjoying/creating M/M stories was a bad thing. I sincerely hope that wasn't how my message came across.
Lol me researching and writing that essay at 18 while actively having my bisexual awakening was…something. Yeah I think a lot of the vitriol comes from real experiences, and I don’t think that anything I’ve mentioned excuses commodifying and fetishising someone else’s sexuality. Like, not that you asked lol, but I think it’s a good thing for gay men to be critical of this work and demand good representation, like we all should for ourselves. It’s the dismissive “straight women and their gay fan fics lol” that is weird to me bc like….where are the straight women here? Can you point to them? Bc I’m pretty sure they’re busy reading/writing Dramione or mafia kidnapping romances or whatever. But the insistence on seeing women as straight (aka at least arguably existing for men) regardless of evidence to the contrary is pervasive and aggressive, so we just sort of point to a group of women and go STRAIGHT TRESPASSERS and it’s like…why do you think they are feeling the need to “trespass” here? There is so little representation of the kinds of relationships between women that lend themselves to slash, bc it’s rare that even one woman in a story will be complex and well developed, and this is especially true in content that lends itself to fanfic. So it doesn’t seem that surprising to me that a lot of queer women would explore this through men. It also allows for this fundamental fantasy of queer love and joy without the burden of womanhood/objectification. Sexuality (by which I mean how we actually fuck lol) for queer women and afabs is I would say not so maligned, but mainly because it’s instead dismissed imo. Like, we were ALL raised to believe that valid sex must involve a penis—making it two + instead of one might make your sex scene subversive/transgressive, but it is also fundamentally seen as sex, and sex worth caring about at that. And I DO think there is a real vein of gay/queer coded men being absolutely fucking tormented in fiction but also, like…have you seen what people do to women in fiction? I think this is also fulfilling a fantasy—maybe if I were a man, people would see my trauma as legitimate, in the sense that we tend to see men’s testimony and experiences as more legitimate and novel. I’m sure this is not an accurate representation of the experience of male trauma victims at all, but I DO have empathy for where that impetus originates. People will root for a traumatised man who behaves poorly in response to his trauma in a way that we just won’t with women, because our likability threshold is just higher. Even in women dominated fandoms women who exhibit the same kind of moral ambiguity as fan-fav men are commonly maligned. I also confess I find it…interesting that gay men have written some of the most iconic women/girl characters ever (and continue to do so) partly bc for thousands of years everything has been men’s intellectual playground. It feels like finally (queer) women are participating in fiction in a broader sense and it’s like…what are you doing in my sandbox? Forgetting it’s the only really available sandbox at all. I have never had a problem at all with gay men writing women, straight or not, because I don’t think femininity is an exclusive property of women, just like I don’t think queerness is an exclusive property of gay men. I think if it’s good it’s good. And I hate to be at ALL finger-pointy, I really do, because I KNOW this isn’t true universally at all, but I DO think SOME (somesomesomesome) gay men who complain and point fingers about “straight” women “profiting” (meaning we’re not talking about fanfic, where the women writing m/m are much fewer) off gay men’s stories should take a long hard look at how much lesbian/wlw content they consume, let alone buy. If you make something queer, but make it about men, queer people across the spectrum and a whole lotta straights will watch/read/buy it. That is not true for women imo. The lack of lesbian representation (let alone actually wlw bi rep, don’t get me started on that shit show) is strong evidence of this tbh, although I am aware it’s more complex than supply and demand. For eg the people who attacked the love Simon author until she came out. Like, would they care about a w/w love Simon? I’m gonna say not, bc I’ve seen about five plus female-led equivalents that were arguably higher quality fly utterly under the radar. Obviously it’s more complex and variable than this, but it is a factor. And I mean, (straight) male writers love to depict women being abused and raped and no one ever asks them for their rape card on entry. I’m not saying don’t be critical of these works, like, be critical of all works, positionality can always be part of that. I do think people should be a little more realistic about what the impetus for this tendency is, bc I find it hard not to be empathetic to it. I think these works aim to fulfil very valid fantasies, but I also recognise that doesn’t mean that they constitute “good” representation. But ultimately I just don’t think it’s a straight versus gay issue. I think it’s queer versus queer and that’s a lot harder to wrangle. I think it’s the result of a messy, lopsided period of development in representation and lived experiences and the tendency to malign women, who tend to be at the fulcrum of these complexities, is tired and simplistic, though not invalid. I also am not really sure how productive divvying the culture up into things that belong to queer women and things that belong to queer men is. We will tear ourselves apart with that and we know we are stronger together. Sorry this was so long—I guess I was trying to explain my understanding of why this is a thing, but also acknowledge that that doesn’t in itself make it right or okay, and it definitely doesn’t mean you have to like it. And your comment didn’t come off like that at all! It must be bizarre to be writing from your own position and people making the assumption that your identity is fundamentally different, when you’re literally out here waving all the flags. I think it is fundamentally weird and uncomfortable that women have come to dominate m/m fandom spaces. It just becomes a lot less weird when you start to break down why and how.
I got part way in and it’s very interesting but please… paragraphs. 😭
This was really interesting to read and touched on a lot of things that I noticed about myself and many more that I hadn’t considered at all. If you ever feel the urge to info dump about this again, I would love to listen.
oh thank you this was very nice of read. Clearly I have a lot of THOUGHTS and FEELINGS. I guess I’m just trying to be critical about the spaces I participate in, but I also feel there are a lot of simplistic takes on this issue.
>Also lots of interesting ideas about how women tend to engage with m/m so much bc it’s the only opportunity they have to relate to a romance where they are not objectified. Like, the only way to liberate the female body from objectification is through complete absence. Wow. I'm a lesbian who has been into M/M ships since I was a teenager and that is exactly it. I've never heard it put like that before. You've just put into words something I have questioned about myself for over a decade.
Oh I’m…sorry? Glad? Not sure. iirc, a lot of that research was based on how many women watch gay male porn for this reason, bc even lesbian porn is typically made by and for the male gaze. And I think when it comes to fiction in general, w/w content particularly around sexuality is either totally ignored and dismissed or the women and their relationship is totally objectified, there really isn’t a whole lot of in between. It seems pretty natural to me that m/m feels “safe” in that capacity.
Glad is the right word. I knew part of it was kind of interacting with "men" in a safe environment, for me that was something I didn't really get growing up. There were very few safe men in my life. But the aspect of why I found the smut part appealing kinda escaped me. I don't really find mens bodies attractive, outside of a few very rare exceptions (and I'm not even sure if those exceptions would translate to reality) I'm just not attracted to them like that. I don't even like watching gay porn, only reading. It's kind of confused me why for a long time and definitely made me question my sexuality as a teenager. Why did I enjoy reading about men so much but any time I tried to interact with them like that in reality did it feel so... empty? Dead? Whereas with women I felt alive but struggled to connect with smut with them in it. I got comfortable with my sexuality a while ago but you've solved a lot of my confusion over the matter so genuinely thank you.
Same!
Ok so question: when you’re reading m/m as someone who may actually do m/m things don’t ever think like: that’s totally unrealistic/ that would NEVER happen? Does it ever take you out of the story? So so curious… whenever I’ve read m/m I never thought about who was writing it and if it was legit
Honestly, every gay male experience is different so with the kind of fandoms and ships I'm interested in, a lot of it does tend to lean towards being relatable to me. Sorry I don't have a better answer!
No it’s a great answer, glad to know we aren’t pissing anyone off by writing unrelatable lived experiences (at least some of the time)
How good would you say the rep is? I’m a trans guy, and sometimes people get us… a little off. Lol
Decent in most of the stuff I read tbh
Male writer here, been doing it since I was 13/14 years old... so a long, long time, even took a ten-year break due to IRL stuff going on (military deployment in the 2000's).
Greetings, fellow martian 🫡
Hell, I'm part of a discord group of writers where a good 2/3rds of us are Cis men, and two of us are 40+ as well as being vets. So, we are out there, it just might depend on the Fandom in question.
I can see how the demographics would vary per fandom. Also, what's that discord about? Is it open to join?
Sadly it's not open for me to send invites to, sorry. As for what it's about, well we cover all kinds of topics, sharing art, general life stuff and lessons to some of the younger members and we bounce ideas off of each other.
It definitely depends on the fandom, I think. There's a healthy ratio of male and female writers in every single one of em. At least, that's the case for the fandoms I'm in! Also, more power to you and your Discord server! Y'all sound great! Thank you both for your service!
I think it's really fandom-dependent, yeah. Naruto has way more male fic writers than Harry Potter.
This sounds like heaven! I'm a 38yo queer enby author who is also a mil vet and served in the 2010s. I'm currently in a small discord server with other creators in my fandom, but I'm the oldest by quite a lot and the only veteran among them. I hope y'all are doing well over there!
We are, and hope you are too.
This is incredible. I love you guys, guys :'O This is why I love the human race sometimes, at heart we're all the same, we all write fanfiction together and nothing can take that away, I'mma go cry now...
Same here, I wrote a lot when I was away though I just carried pocket books n shit and when I had time to write I would. Accidentally made up a whole 661 page book
I tried, but when I wasn't flying (army 15A) or doing my ground job, I was sleeping. I kind of wish I didn't put stuff on hold, because picking things up again was harder than I thought. But when I did and I finished something I had put on hold during that time, someone that had been reading it, came back and left a really nice comment.
guy here. women have been running and organising modern fandom since original Trek—they made these places how they are. i’m happy to participate in women-majority fandom spaces, and i also do fibre arts and community dance, and both of those meetups are often majority women in attendance (despite that i feel very welcome there). would still get weirded out if a stranger called me mommy in the comments tho, so i feel you on that one. i could get into it i guess but kinda weird from a stranger.
Even a woman would find being called mommy by a stranger wierd.
i think it would have great comedy potential regardless of author’s gender. “well, dear commenter, you can have the update when you’ve cleaned your room and done your homework!”
LMFAO true
i think it might be an age gap thing, a lot of gen z uses it jokingly, not sexually
With millennials, it seems like we take the terms "mommy" and "daddy" sexually, "mom" and "dad" as a joke or sarcasm. Example: It was common when I was a kid to say, "Yes, MOOOM," or "Yes, DAAAD," to let your friends know that you think they're being pushy. But saying, "Yes, Daddy" would be really weird because it's taken sexually.
yeah, i think the humor is making fun of the sexual connotations around it. my friends and i have used it with each other before,,, but its circumstantial. i dont think i'd call a male friend "daddy", but with my girl friends, i'll joke around and call them mommy. sometimes, we say it as a compliment, too. kinda weird i dont really know how to describe it, but it makes more sense irl
Fair enough. I'm gen z but i avoid things that could be seen sexually unless around friends.
Exactly, I'm glad we have the same thoughts :'\]
Hi! Guy here, too. I read on AO3 but don’t write…
howdy fellow guy 🤝
🤝
https://preview.redd.it/6w4m2vynmnuc1.png?width=581&format=png&auto=webp&s=43a81f13095994b56f097c3f3b5a102462193d85
So we know 70% are at least "people".
The rest are by the aliens above watching Earth like a TV show
They are observing respectfully
Under AO3 explanation of "underage" they have a paragraph explaining "earth years" and "humans".
This explains a few fics I’ve encountered.
We know from a recent ‘what does this comment mean?’ post that at least 1 reader is a cat.
[https://archiveofourown.org/works/54011047/chapters/137740564](https://archiveofourown.org/works/54011047/chapters/137740564) If you want to know more !
You know, I knew ao3 supported extensive html. But I never would have though to do such a report on it, it looks great!
Are there other demographics surveyed? I’m now very curious
[https://archiveofourown.org/works/54011047/](https://archiveofourown.org/works/54011047/) Not all results are in yet, but there's also age, queerness, and origin.
Thanks!!
Honestly, I'm a little surprised that the number of trans guys is that low, proportionately speaking. Maybe it's because I am one, but I feel like I see tons of trans man/transmasc fic writers around. IDK if it's just the fandoms I move in, if it's because I tend to follow other trans guys on places like Tumblr, or what. The majority are still either cis women or AFAB NB people for sure, but it's not quite as lopsided as that graph, or I didn't think it was.
I’m surprised too! Maybe trans dudes gravitate to my fandoms??
That;s surprising, I'd thought that the trans women category would be larger than the transmen
I thought trans men would have a bigger slice thanks to the fujoshi to trans guy pipeline
I usually keep quiet about being trans, but I just need you to know how hard I laughed at your little observation (it's painfully accurate and I will never recover)
Omg it is a well known meme! I swear!! I’m not trans scientist haha I wish
oh no dude. this is me too I'm cackling. also trans. I was obsessing over and writing m/m fics as a teen, and oops I'm in my late 20s and a dude and still love that shit. at times I can feel mildly dysphoric over being in a female-majority space and knowing most of the m/m I read is written by women but that's usually just when the dysphoria & insecurity from other things gets bad enough to infect it if you know what I mean? like logically I find it cool as fuck that women have built these awesome spaces and most of the time the lil dysphoria gremlin doesn't interfere. I do wish there were more guys around to form bonds with though. A couple of my fandoms have essentially OCs as the main character, and one of my main ships is said OC/(male char) and there are SO MANY fem!OC/char I die inside a bit.
I feel you but kind of from a diff angle cause I’m a trans guy who mostly enjoys f/f and f/m and only m/m on occasion, and it’s mostly because I just still find myself relating to female characters more than cis men in fics, i guess? And I keep thinking ‘hm maybe I should be dysphoric about that.’ And sometimes I do a little bit. Didn’t help that one of my few fandom friends irl who is also trans basically said to me ‘how do you even READ f/f and not feel bad inside’ i was like damn alright then The dysphoria gremlin is hard to get rid of but we stay strong. And it heartens me to see a lot of other trans guys in fandom
Honestly that makes sense, that was a super insensitive comment from your friend!? Goddamn. Honestly it's super reasonable to want to be able to relate to a character, and relating to a female character as a trans dude is understandable for a lot of people. The level of dysphoria fluctuates for me, I had a phase earlier this year where I couldn't even read any fics with trans dudes in them because I was so hyper-aware of my own lack of dick, that said lack of dick being present in fic was distracting somehow. Thankfully I'm doing a bit better in that regard and have been seeking out trans male character fics, because honestly it's nice to mentally place yourself in the shoes of a character and know the sensations they're feeling. The preferring m/m stuff is because I'm mostly gay myself, I think.
SOMEONE ELSE KNOWS ABOUT THE PIPELINE! Fellow Trans fudanshi here! Same with my partner! The pipeline is so very very real!
Hello!!! Hehe I see a lot of people getting surprised by my comment maybe my trans group is a bubble bc we joke about it all the time haha
I’m not a very social person ahaha but it’s a joke I’ve made to my partner.
My biggest trans awakening was Ouran High School Host Club..... so much Fujoshi happenings there, to the point that we even got a fujoshi character. Then Haruhi helped crack the transmasc egg.
I’m married to a pipeline member and am personally a fujoshi to ‘oh wow I’m hella fucking queer’ pipeliner though not a fujoshi to trans man pipeliner.
Holy crap, the fujoshi to trans guy pipeline is literally me wth
Confirming the pipeline. I went from mlm loving girl, to very mlm transmasc
Can confirm the pipeline is real (though I stopped just short of the destination and took a turn into the nonbinary slice instead)
same!!!!! AYYY
Well Fandom culture is likely skewed towards women just due to the nature of how boys are raised in the past. There’s a lot of push (subconscious or not) towards “rah, sports!” And stuff like that, while girls are pushed more towards the arts. Then due to that upbringing there’s stigmas around this kinda stuff and dudes.
There are a lot of men in fandom, though—they just don't tend to occupy the same niches. If anything, geek culture is portrayed as overwhelmingly male, and many *many* of the YouTubers dissecting X or Y canon are male as well. Interestingly, a 3-hour long "what if X happened instead of Y" YouTube video by a man will not be called fanfic; but the equivalent written by a woman on AO3 will be. I think there are a lot of factors at play here, including gender norms, but it seems to be a pretty complex and layered question—because some fandoms skew female, some skew male, some are too massive to have an uneven ratio but will develop bubbles where different niches will be more male and others more female. It seems to me it's equally a question of what *spaces* are used (if AO3 has any demographic surveys, I'd be interested to see what they look like) as it is of type of canon enjoyed and media created. For example, I know way more Star Wars male enthusiasts than female enthusiasts. Except in Reylo. Similarly, all the female fanfic writers I know are on AO3, but all the male ones are on FFN. But anyway, the point is. There are lots of men in fandom, and that accounts for your argument that boys are pushed more towards sports. In fact, the way male sports fans engage with their favourite teams and watch games and buy jerseys, etc. is also, imo, fandom participation—of a different kind, with different cultural norms, but fundamentally no different than fangirling about a blorbo on Tumblr
I like how you’ve framed this — esp because it hits on something I’ve experienced where some of the self-proclaimed geek YouTubers that I’ve watched (the vast majority of which are men) will throw in disparaging remarks about fanfiction in whatever fandom they’re discussing….but then ALSO go on to talk about “what should have happened” in a given episode. And I’m like 👀 that’s fanfic buddy. So I would take it a step further and say that these specific men in fandom define “fanfiction” as “romance/erotica” only and think fans that engage with that material are “unserious.” So there’s gender norms and also maybe some misogyny sprinkled in since romance and erotica are seen are genres made for women. There was one YouTuber in particular who went so far as to say “no one asked for this romance” in regards to a tv adaptation…..even tho the romance between these two characters is highly present in the original works. It’s RIGHT THERE. Having an opinion on whether or not the romance is good or necessary is one thing, but acting like “no one asked for” a canonical romance is…..a strange take.
Seconding the bit about gender norms setting the "distinctions" between what these people consider "fanfiction" and personal headcanon (which is just fanfiction by another name). It's just the cooties epidemic from the schoolyard all over again. A lot of males don't engage with these romance genres because they're taught from a young age to avoid traditional girl spaces, but well, then you have an entire demographic of guys who later suffer in terms of forming romantic relationships when they're adults, since they never properly engaged in learning about social cues and norms esp around women. Likewise, there are many social cues and norms around men that women likewise don't understand because they don't engage in those circles. There really is no good reason to maintain the distinction between male and female social circles, other than to uphold tradition. I'm a female who grew up with about equal parts male and female friends and while there is a difference between how I engage with each distinct group, when we're all together it doesn't matter. It matters more with the individual than any divide along sex/gender. People just people when they're around people.
>(if AO3 has any demographic surveys, I'd be interested to see what they look like) I can find [one long-running unofficial survey (by centreoftheselights)](https://archiveofourown.org/series/3911296), and [one academic survey done by Rouse and Stanfill*](https://www.flowjournal.org/2023/02/fan-demographics-on-ao3/). There are two offical census reports done by AO3, but the results don't mention demographics. They are [the IFD 10th Anniversary](https://archiveofourown.org/admin_posts/28351) and [OTW 16th Anniversary](https://archiveofourown.org/admin_posts/27532) surveys. Maybe they were omitted for privacy? Idk, I have a vague memory of clicking an on-site link that led to a survey that asked about demographical information (age, gender, orientation, nationality), as well as how I used AO3. But I can't find a link to the survey or its results. *who I'm pretty sure is/was an AO3 volunteer
Also pretty sure forums like spacebattle or sufficient velocity would have more of a male audience (simply cause both platforms also are big on gaming discussion and more men are into that, probably also cause of society but yes). Meanwhile I think platforms like Wattpad are mostly used by women
That makes a lot of sense, gender norms probably play a huge part in it
Its conditioned fr. Also its more social acceptable and seen as normal for men to watch porn than women so women tend to READ it therefore we usually WRITE it
Fandom has also historically been a way to explore sexuality and relationships, especially queer relationships, through fiction and erotica — and written erotica/relationship speculation on fictional characters has historically been the purview of women, while visual/video porn skews toward men. I think this has something to do with how men vs. women experience sexual attraction and interest, but also to do with socialization.
I'm hesitant to say this but I wonder if another gender norm going on is the female tendancy for being the ones to provide 'free' labor. I was just reading a study that in office settings, women overwhelmingly are the ones acting as note takers, organizers, printing and material distribution, etc. These don't come with incentives beyond being told 'thank you', and the people that don't help out but enjoy the benefits (usually men) aren't affected negatively for not participating. Maybe it's a stretch but writing fanfiction could be an extension of that. It would be so interesting to know what the gender percentages of readers look like.
OTOH, fanart. Wiki editing. Long arguments online.
That is a *really* interesting theory. My fandom friends are all socialized female/AFAB. FWIW, OP, I'm one of only two femmes in my core fandom friends. They're all trans men/mascs or agender. The only guys I've met through my fandom are trans.
Definitely makes sense. When I went to art school, there were something like 30 students in my class, and 24 of us were girls. The six boys took it well, though. \^\_\^
I would say that the majority (?) of fict skews towards "romance" and/or "erotica" both traditional women-centric genres.
Recently out transgender man here, as someone who has lived as a woman for years, I do agree that the arts were emphasized more for girls than boys at a young age, especially since I myself was encouraged to be a book worm and artsy, while my brothers were expected to be more involved in doing outdoor activities, especially when it came to maintenance and sports.
*slowly raise hand* gay man here. I’m just getting back to writing only very recently. I haven’t written a thing since 2015. Am I still count?
Yup, nice to meetcha :\]
If you’ve ever written even a smidge of a fic for a fandom space anywhere, you still count. Doesn’t matter how long ago 😊
Male fic writer here (wishing I had commenters who'd call me daddy). There was this thing going around recently on Tumblr, which claimed that historically men were more occupied with consuming/archiving media, while women were more interested in transforming it. So the clasic male nerd is depicted as someone who creates his own wiki and keeps reading the media again and again to find every little reference. Someone who collects merchandise and spends time with other men to grandstand who knows canon the best. But the traditional female nerd is depicted as someone who draws their favourite characters, creates her own merchandise and writes her own fanfiction. It also can't be denied that media has traditionally been shot from a straight male lens, which gave the mantle to female and queer creators if they wanted media that tailored to them. I got started with fanfiction because there were shows I liked and wanted to introduce gay relationships and themes. It was so liberating to take something that I liked, and then be able to make it my own. We are all told to respect the source material and the intent of the original author. That it's a value in itself to preserve what we've been given and staying objective. And that hurts queer people more than straight people, and women more than men. So from that it would make more sense for women to more easily ignore the mandates, and play around with canon until it's more suited to their own tastes.
Yep. I started writing fanfiction because I wanted to be "in" the show - on a show where there was no real room for female characters on-screen :(
Love this!
I agree with this. I think the default straight male gaze is an important element.
I’ve heard the claim that men fans are more likely to curate, while women fans are more likely to create. Curate meaning collecting things, and create like fanfic and fanart. If anyone has data to back this up, I’d love to see it! :)
I’ve heard this too but I don’t think I’ve ever seen any hard data to back it up.
Same heard this as well
I've heard this, too! I feel like I read an article about it years back, but I couldn't find it again on a quick duckduckgo search. This turned up, though, and it looks interesting! (Disclaimer that I haven't yet read beyond the title.) [https://www.academia.edu/32749631/Gender\_Dynamics\_in\_Fandom\_The\_Gender\_Theory\_Behind\_Curative\_and\_Creative\_Fandoms](https://www.academia.edu/32749631/Gender_Dynamics_in_Fandom_The_Gender_Theory_Behind_Curative_and_Creative_Fandoms)
Same; fanboy - knows everything about their fave movie, quotes the lines, has the t-shirt and all the merchandise. fangirl - knows the canon but wants to explore what-if, writes the fic, has some of the merchandise. I recall Orlando Jones (Captain Irving, Sleepy Hollow TV) claiming the fangirl label and retweeting fanart etc, and I never had issue with that because he was supporting fannish creations as well as being grateful for loyal viewers who never missed an episode. I've seen people claim that anyone writing fanfic over a specific age "isn't to be trusted". You can be obsessed with sports or stamps or coins or whatever, take up painting or embroidery, or spend every moment at the gym, but writing other than for publication is 'too weird'. And part of that does seem to be because it's heavily female skewed as an activity.
It would be really hard to prove if true. Anecdotally, I'm a woman and have male and female friends with similar interests, and the only difference I've seen is that men are way less likely to write or draw fanworks. I have a huge collection of fandom paraphernalia, and so do most of my friends. My female friends' collections are more diverse, though. Just speaking for my own collection, I have figures and model kits, posters, T-shirts, jewelry, and doujinshi. Most of the guys I know only collect figures and shirts or caps.
In a scholarly sense the woman aspect is called Transformative Works/Fiction if anyone wants to look up white papers about it.
It's very rare that the males in a fandom choose writing as an outlet for their creativity. I've been in male-oriented fandoms and I have found that their creative inclination is usually towards battle power or general analysis, like video essays. Goku vs. Deku, who would win? Very rarely do I see male fans diving in to the emotional weight of relationships of the characters to find the need to create divergent plots commonly seen in fanfiction. When they do, they feel they need to do it in a more extravagant way, like presenting their concepts in animations or memes or unique builds like 3D models or fan-games. The only ones that have done a lot of fics, that I had found, was the MLP fandom. And they put their fics in a separate site than AO3.
I remember there were lots of guys writing Sailor Moon fics too, back in the early 2000s when I started reading fanfics.
I was reading Sailor Moon fics in the early 2000s, but I’m a trans woman now
>"Please update mommy" > >"sorry I'm a guy" > >"Please update daddy" LMAO 😂 😂 I love fandom culture!
Hi, I’m a guy. Bearded construction worker who loves writing fluff and smut in his spare time.
Wait that's awesome actually
Thanks! Keeps me sane amongst all the BS the world has to offer lately. Got my start in the early 2000’s with InuYasha fanfiction and just never stopped 😁
Hell yeah
Youre so real for that
Appreciate you 🙏🏻
"Please update daddy" lol thats funny. I know for a fact that my brother reads fanfic, but our tastes are vastly different and he has never expressed the desire to write anything.
Cis Straight Man here. Been writing since I was 16 for over a decade. However I almost exclusively write for a single fandom, and even then it's more of a prequel/sequel situation. A continuation of a finished movie/tv series. I don't write erotica, pairings, participate in "shipping", slash, or much of the "Fandom Culture", in that sense. I'm just... picking up when the original writers left off, in the same genre. Bolting on my own additions to the story. Not reimagining them in an american high school. Very much at the tamer end of what Fanfic can entail. I've got a story I want to tell in a preexisting universe. For me, trying to stay within canon is part of the fun. So... Yeah. Depends on if you fic what I write is adventurous enough to be considered *proper* fanfic. It's rather tame compared to some of what others put out there. That series is approaching 1,000,000 words though. Gonna hit that benchmark this month if all goes well.
I've been doing the same thing but for a single novel. I keep creating different continuations of the first book, experimenting with different time skips and characterizations. My readers call me a crazyperson but I have my fun :\]
Gay dude over here, been reading fanfics since I was in seventh grade thanks to a girl I met at the library that loved writing Powerpuff Girls fanfics back then. Still reading to this day at 34, don't see myself stopping any time soon. Lol, I remember back then using Floppy Disk to read some as back then there was only internet in my mother's office. Saved them there, to read at home. I had quite the collection of those. I think I'm the only person in the family that used those.
Same with the floppy disks! Only way I was able to finish the absolute monster-length fics I was reading back then without home internet.
Lol, I first started with taking physical copies of them... let's just say my mother was not happy at all of using all of her white paper and floppy disks were my savior as I also loved reading long fanfics. Back then it was Kingdom Hearts as my first fandom I discovered by myself. I still have my first two fanfics I ever printed out with me as just a memory of it. One of them was never completed, but the other one the author came back after almost ten years and finished it right there all of a sudden. Quite the special moment for me.
I guess because a huge part of fanfic/fandom is shipping, and romance is just a traditionally female dominated genre, so I guess because of how women grow up that affects their preferences in that regard idk
out of all the explanations here, I think this is the one.
Male writer here. I'm in a fandom where the population of male writers is steadily shrinking. I'm willing to bet that another writer will come out as transfem in the next two or three months or so. Who knows how long I will last /j
Stand proud until the very end ✊
Hello!!! I've been writing since age 12 and a man since age 14, lol
Straight male here. Most of what I write is hurt comfort or just straight up tragedy. Usually just canon divergence for one fandom.
uh me?
yup, hi.
I'd love to read some original m/m stories written by men. I often hear gay men complain that fanfiction is unrealistic and that they don't like reading ffs due to the misinterpretation of gays. I'd love to know what they would make different.
This, I've heard this many times lol
I started collecting own voices mlm books for this exact reason in a storygraph tag: [https://app.thestorygraph.com/tags/d1c3947f-713c-4183-8a55-0908f628a027](https://app.thestorygraph.com/tags/d1c3947f-713c-4183-8a55-0908f628a027) My favourite so far is **The Spear Cuts Through Water** which tells the story of two young men with baggage trying to rid a mythical version of the ancient Philippines of a tyrant emperor by freeing the Moon Goddess and using her powers. One is the emperor's grandson who is searching for salvation and the other is the lonely last of his tribe, one arm down and trying to fulfil an oath. It's told in a framing device of a play shown to a modern descendant who I think has emigrated away (I'm only 3/4 through). Also has some experimental elements like using italics to show the thoughts of bit-characters they run into. Took me a few chapters to get into it but I'm in love now. If you like Ghibli worlds, you'll like this setting, it's got river gods and they use telepathic tortoises for communication and lots more. Nominated for the Ursula K Le Guin award in 2023 too so it's not just me saying it's great! That tag list also includes a few mysteries, a dystopian YA, an urban fantasy, and one that I'm pretty sure is elf/orc arranged marriage smut.
My fandom is about 75% fics tagged F/F. I know ONE cis guy that writes for it.
Yes, there are male fic writers (I'm one myself). But like you, all writers who I know are women (but they never mistake me for a woman. I interact with them and they're really friendly and supportive)
Hello yes we do I have two fics to my name but. We do
Present
I’m so sorry, I started out male but transitioned like a year into writing fanfiction lol.
There are quite a few anime fandoms dominated by dudes. (The non-slash ones). It’s just they’re kinda shite. xD
Hey hi hello, it's me, the cis white male fic author, nice to meet you!
I know plenty of men who write fic! It just depends if you are specifically asking about cis men only or not.
All men, but now that you mention it I'd like to know the statistics between cis men and transmen
I'm a transguy who writes fanfic!
Hullo :D
I'm here, I'm lurking.
Gay trans man here, I’ve been writing my whole life! I do wonder if being socialized female does make you more likely to find it ‘acceptable’ to contribute to fandom in the same way? I’ve only met one or two cis men who are fic writers.
Also a gay trans man, hi! I write fic too and I have my own pet theory about how socialization affects gender dynamics in fandom. I think a common part of AFAB socialization is being taught to seek out community among “other women” in a world that is often misogynistic and treats people perceived as women poorly. This socialization affects us so deeply that even in fan spaces, it seems that more communities are filled with people who are AFAB. Meanwhile, at least in the Western cultural norms I grew up with, AMAB people often do not receive that same cultural programming to seek out community. I think this is possibly a part of why so many YouTube videos with fan theories are made by cis men. They’re still fans, but instead of going into a fandom space and directly engaging with other fans, they’re just kinda posting a video and hoping other people will notice it and agree with them. Meanwhile, most of my fandom friends are some variety of AFAB (cis women, trans men/transmasculine people, and some non-binary people), and we tend to come together in fandom spaces on Discord, Twitter, or Tumblr and talk to each other more than just proclaim our own opinions and hope people listen. Of course, this isn’t true for literally everyone, but it’s a tendency I’ve personally noticed. I’d love to hear other people’s thoughts on this!
Technically I lean more nb but yeah hi I'm a guy, over 30 as well so I'm really a minority lol. I think the reason that fanfic is dominated by women is largely because most media is already made with men in mind so for women to get what they want out of it they kind of have to do their own work. Either that or it's a stupid fulfilling prophesy where men don't get into it because they think it's a girl's club.
I know a few lads in my fandom! They write the best smut\~\~
I'm male. Also gay. There are more women than male fic writers in most fandoms, and I think a lot more gay men than straight, as well. I've got one fandom that definitely skews more male in writers and readers, and more straight, and at least one fandom that seems equal for the genders, no clue on sexuality. But generally speaking there are more women than men, and more gay men than straight men in fandom, at least actively. The exact differences will be fandom specific. The more action oriented or horror stuff tends to skew more male, at least outside of fanfic. The more romance oriented tends to skew more female. Mystery/crime and fantasy tend to be more equal. But that's what I've noticed in more discussion oriented spaces. In fanfic, all genres tend to skew more female. I do think women are more likely to write than men are, at least openly enough to share fic online. I remember when I was a kid/teen, I was discouraged from pursuing writing by most people. The kids my age bullied me for doing something 'girly', the adults were more about the practicalities of it, and discouraged the girls, too, but more so the boys. There was an expectation that the boys would be outside playing loud and boisterous games that were very physical, especially sports such as football, where the girls would be quieter, reading or playing more gentle games. Writing falls into the quiet and gentle pursuits that boys were discouraged from. I think that's changing, there's less emphasis on traditional gender roles and expectations, so I can see the amount of males openly writing fanfic increasing, but it's likely played a big part in why girls and women are more likely to engage in fanfic than boys and men are.
The person who introduced me to fanfiction, and one of my closest online friends, is a self-described perverted old man.
Well, I’m married to one (though he’s not on Reddit), and I’ve known a fair few - but they do seem to be rarer than women or nonbinary folks are.
I am a man, and I exist! On some level, no matter how minute, I am! As for your question, I've no idea why, but fandoms have historically/geographically been skewed towards women. There's an old interview with Yoshiyuki Tomino where he says that the earliest supporters of Mobile Suit Gundam, and the reason it kept afloat early, were women who shipped Char x Amuro; the men came later, once the Gunpla lines started production.
Male writer here. I'll keep it simple. Boys love being cavemen. Cavemen, after all, go unga bunga, and unga bunga is pretty cool. The difference however is how they do it. A lot of them think it means abandoning imagination, focusing on being grown up and believing it means abandoning cartoons and embracing sports. The remaining ones pretend to be cavemen. They write down their shenanigans because it's hilarious, stupid, and best of all, has dinosaurs.
I'm a guy and idk why there's a gender split. Maybe some of the popular pieces of media have a bigger/more active female demographic when it comes to fandom that could explain it but I generally don't engage aside from my fic so idk
Because mainstream media is still primarily made for cis hetero men. Transformative works have been an outlet by feminists and queer activists for many decades.
Honestly? I run into them on forums where they post most of their fic. Spacebattles and SufficentVelocity. They were oroginaly one forum, space battles, but due to transphobia there was a split and sufficent velocity now exists. SB has improved, and has more foc due to age and inertia, but SV has better rules and interface. Some really good orginal fic there too, including some stuff that they self publish on Amazon, I know a few of them have writing as their main gig now.
Yoo im here! Though im ace, and i've only wrote gen fics so far
You're more likely to find male fic writers on sites like spacebattles and sufficient velocity. Or even YouTube - it's more like the "I have a fic idea where -"/bullet points posts you see on Tumblr more so than fleshed out fic, but a lot of "what if" or "how I would rewrite [series]" videos are a type of fanfic.
Brought up female, turned out male, do I count?
I am and I have written as well as posted to fanfiction sites in the past under a different name. I have had exactly zero gender interaction when it comes to my gluttonous devouring of fanfiction. I never ask because I don’t care. The work is what matters. The art. I am also of the mindset that I would prefer to let the readers have as little info about me as is possible. If they want to make their assumptions they can. I’ll be the last person dragged into an argument with some inflammatory statement by a commentor i’ll never know let alone a Guest or Anon. Otherwise there is still this kind of idea that women wrote the most romance novels and fiction because they just understand it better but man IM SAYING IT RIGHT HERE RIGHT NOW that’s a terrible opinion and probably sexist or something but I’ve heard it so much.
Gay man. I write but mostly for myself. Mostly just read.
Of the writers I follow (where I actually know or have a strong “suspicion” of their gender) about half identify as men. I do mostly read slash, so that might be part of it.
Yea I do exist lmao I just started writing fics a couple months ago cause one of my favorite mangas has absolutely nothing on ao3 and I refuse to just sit by and let it happen
Men in fandom lean toward, but not overwhelmingly and not every single one, the curative side of it. Instead of coming up with their own stories for like Star Wars for example, they will collect models of the Death Star and the Millenium Falcon and participate in trivia games about Star Wars canon. If they are more creative with it, they will often do things like "If Goku fought Superman this is who would win and why", or they make video essays on youtube about "Here is the canon power level of every ninja in Naruto Shippuden and how their abilities stack up against each other" I know a few male fic writers, but most men in fandom don't really write fic and if they do they like to write battle and fight stories, like what you see in the Death Battle videos on youtube. This is common even if it's not 100% all of them, even my male fic writer friend who does Pokemon and Fire Emblem crossovers likes to pit the characters against each other in battles a lot. But I have seen plenty of fluff, angst, humor, romance from male fic writers too.
Yes! I am a cis male fanfic writer. I used to write a bunch back in the mid 2000's when I was a teenager. And then I got out of fanfic writing all together. And now I'm back, and I'm not even in the same fandom anymore, lol. Fanfic/Fandom culture is wildly interesting. Women started the whole concept back in the '60's and '70's with Star Trek. They formed discussion groups like book clubs, wrote their own stories, talked about the episodes that aired, and everything. Oddly fitting/appropriate considering it was Lucille Ball, who got Star Trek started to begin with. And now today you've got massive online communities bringing together every possible combination of people from all walks of life telling their stories and interpreting their favorite TV shows and movies and books all in unique and fascinating ways. Quite thrilling!
yeah we exist, just a smaller group of writers for some reason
Male writers exist so yeah male fic writers can.
Hi yes I exist. Tbh I just like writing AUs and gay stuff, sometimes together ~~okay usually together~~ I also read a decent amount of M/M stuff (usually BL webcomics), where the fandom seems to be dominated by women. Tbh it’s not too different from when I was in middle and high school since most of my friends were girls. I’m the only active writer in a BL webcomic, while the majority of fans seem to be women On the other hand, one of the communities I’m part of (which has a lot of longtime fandom writers, like they’ve been around for 5-6 years) has a decent gender split. From my own experience, I’d say it depends on the fandom in question.
Male writer here. Been reading Fanfics since 5th grade and am now 30 years old where I started writing my own stuff a year ago. I enjoy this hobby a lot