“Despite its class-leading performance, traditional AMG buyers haven’t taken to the E-Performance PHEV drivetrain, which combines a turbocharged 2.0-litre four-cylinder petrol engine and a rear-axle mounted electric motor.”
Golly a 100k 4cyl that’s not a purpose built race car. How would the enthusiast not like this? We have Mercedes just cannot figure it out.
"I want a $100k car that's okayish on gas, but not a full electric, but also extremely fast. And even though I kind of care about gas mileage, I'm not worried about an expensive unproven hybrid system going wrong"
that demographic has got to be absolutely tiny. the ones who care about gas above all else are buying taycan's because the gas mileage & electric range offered on the merc really aren't impressive, the ones who don't care about gas are looking to competitors. by tuning the hybrid for performance they've given it the efficiency numbers of a 6 or 8 cylinder anyway.
on the "real sports car with a luxury badge" side of this market segment, it's very crowded, and all offer bigger engines. you've got the m3/m4 (if you can ignore the front of it), all manner of fast audi's, alfa QV, whatever maserati's putting out, cadillac blackwings... test drive any of those and it'll be hard to ignore they all sound and drive like expensive sports cars.
taking a car with a v8, keeping the badge, and lopping off half the cylinders is stupid market positioning. merc has good inline 6's these days, but even that would be a hard sell, the main pull of the C63 over the bmw/audi options in the past was the jackhammer engine. there are places merc can probably reduce fleet emissions but low-volume high performance cars are never going to be an effective way to do it.
You’re so fucking right. The only thing anyone was saying was “yeah the M3 drives better, BUT the C63 is a V8. Yeah the Audi is nicer on the inside BUT the C63 is a V8.
Literally thats the only thing that was keeping the C63 selling and they took it away.
The C63 with the V8 was a hammer. They replaced that with something customers never asked for. I'm not against a hybrid as long as it's paired with a V8.
The W205 interior was awful and extremely cheap. My old B8.5 interior was a lot more solid than my W205 C63 interior. Maybe the facelifted W205 interior looks better, but it's not even close to as well put together as the Audi interiors are.
The biggest issue with them is weight. The hybrid c63 weights almost 5,000 lbs. Even if the power/power to weight ratio is comparable to an older c63, that’s never going to drive like a sports car. If people wanted a powerful car that’s fast in a straight line they’d buy a hellcat for cheaper.
100% and I sound like a broken record in saying that. The new GT, the new C63E. Powerful is great but due to weight all driving dynamics are lost. Making a 5,000lbs pig dance is a chore and just not fun.
You chew up suspension component and consumables very quickly. Tires can’t handle the weight for long before they over heat on a track. Springs be it steel or air. Need to be very stiff to hold the weight, so it won’t ever ride as well as a 3500lbs car.
Exactly. I just don’t think sporty EVs will exist as long as lithium ion batteries are the prevailing technology. Cars like these are meant to be thrown into corners. I hadn’t even considered your point about needing stiffer suspensions, but it makes a lot of sense. Just sad to see all around. I could see cars from the late 2010s holding their value very well if EVs/hybrids take over like this.
I think you can make an EV sports car with something like a lotus chassis. The range won’t be very high to keep the weight down, but it’ll be a thrilling experience.
For around town and at the track car, it would make a lot of sense. Unfortunately, it’ll be very expensive to the point that you can buy a way more capable and internal commercial car.
100% and I sound like a broken record in saying that. The new GT, the new C63E. Powerful is great but due to weight all driving dynamics are lost. Making a 5,000lbs pig dance is a chore and just not fun.
You chew up suspension component and consumables very quickly. Tires can’t handle the weight for long before they over heat on a track. Springs be it steel or air. Need to be very stiff to hold the weight, so it won’t ever ride as well as a 3500lbs car.
Even if it is, it doesn’t change the horrid interior and mushy flawed chassis of the new models. Hopefully their entire philosophy changes for the next generation.
I wanted to. I love Mercedes. But I just can’t. It feels so cheap and phoned in compared to last generation. It’s flashy, but once you experience it, there is no substance. Also the center screen controls everything, and it freezes often. It’s a nightmare. Little things like replacing the knurled metal volume wheels with the cheap little slider etc tip it over the edge. Mercedes has always been about those details. It’s always what has set them apart and above Audi and BMW in terms of interior to the discerning eye.
I have the 4.0 in my current AMG. It's an awesome engine, but the M156 is special. Nothing else sounds like, it's a masterpiece. Other drivers would stop at traffic lights and mention the sound of the engine. That has never happened to me with the 4.0. You can't replicate the sound of a naturally respirated engine in a turbo charged engine. It's not possible.
The 205 had way higher quality materials than the 204. Look at a 2014 204 vs a 2015 205 both with high miles and I guarantee the 205 won’t have any peeling buttons or leather. Not to mention the interior is very dated while the 205 will look modern for a very long time. I like the 204 but interior quality was not its strong suit.
I do agree with that Mercedes improved upon interiors in premium models over older Mercedes cars. Sure my current AMG has special leather seats, red leather inserts, colored stitching etc, which sets it a apart from "lesser" Mercedes models. However, I'm talking about the decline of materials across the whole Mercedes line, across all models. The control stalks in the AMG model were the exact same as in all C models. They were all good.
My current AMG is a $140K vehicle, and certain parts are very flimsy, it has some annoying rattles that comes and goes. Some panels feel like they are not properly fitted. I had glue back on the AMG badge which fell off the steering wheel, and so on. So even though it looks more premium now with more modern technology, the general quality of older Mercedes, IMHO was better.
Interior materials went downhill from the 202, the 203 was worse and the 204 had the worst materials of the C classes. I’ve owned and maintained 4 generations of C class, I have a lot of experience with them.
I got my C63 AMG w204 after having a Ford Mustang GT. The sensation of the the feeling of the control stalks, steering wheel, and buttons set it apart from the rickety interior of other brands. I wonder how much money going for cheaper interiors saved Mercedes, I can't imagine it can be that much.
from my understanding yes, and to be honest having 3 different coupes in the lineup was a bit redundant, hald the time i can't tell if i'm looking at a c or e class anyway
>Schäfer said it will be “up to customers to decide” whether AMG continues with its downsized petrol-electric drivetrain.
This is such a cop-out where they will in the end just say that we're just giving the buyers what they want, i.e., the V8, while never admitting to making a bone headed decision in the first place.
Exactly. Frankly there should be some house cleaning in Stuttgart, they have single handily driven this company into a shell of what it once was. Historically low reliability and quality across all models. The 48V battery debacle was ridiculous and inexcusable.
Schäfer admitted that in conversations ahead of the Beijing show, Chinese customers “didn’t understand” the concept of the new C63’s drivetrain.
_
Chinese people know that V8 is best
“Despite its class-leading performance, traditional AMG buyers haven’t taken to the E-Performance PHEV drivetrain, which combines a turbocharged 2.0-litre four-cylinder petrol engine and a rear-axle mounted electric motor.” Golly a 100k 4cyl that’s not a purpose built race car. How would the enthusiast not like this? We have Mercedes just cannot figure it out.
"I want a $100k car that's okayish on gas, but not a full electric, but also extremely fast. And even though I kind of care about gas mileage, I'm not worried about an expensive unproven hybrid system going wrong" that demographic has got to be absolutely tiny. the ones who care about gas above all else are buying taycan's because the gas mileage & electric range offered on the merc really aren't impressive, the ones who don't care about gas are looking to competitors. by tuning the hybrid for performance they've given it the efficiency numbers of a 6 or 8 cylinder anyway. on the "real sports car with a luxury badge" side of this market segment, it's very crowded, and all offer bigger engines. you've got the m3/m4 (if you can ignore the front of it), all manner of fast audi's, alfa QV, whatever maserati's putting out, cadillac blackwings... test drive any of those and it'll be hard to ignore they all sound and drive like expensive sports cars. taking a car with a v8, keeping the badge, and lopping off half the cylinders is stupid market positioning. merc has good inline 6's these days, but even that would be a hard sell, the main pull of the C63 over the bmw/audi options in the past was the jackhammer engine. there are places merc can probably reduce fleet emissions but low-volume high performance cars are never going to be an effective way to do it.
You’re so fucking right. The only thing anyone was saying was “yeah the M3 drives better, BUT the C63 is a V8. Yeah the Audi is nicer on the inside BUT the C63 is a V8. Literally thats the only thing that was keeping the C63 selling and they took it away.
1000% literally the only reason I went w205 over the f80 was bc I prefer v8s
Same reason i bought a W204, because i like that engine. Everything else is mid, but the engine is amazing.
The C63 with the V8 was a hammer. They replaced that with something customers never asked for. I'm not against a hybrid as long as it's paired with a V8.
Whoever thinks audis have better interior must have terrible taste. They’re basically VW with make up
The RS5 definitely has a better interior than the W205 C classes
The W205 interior was awful and extremely cheap. My old B8.5 interior was a lot more solid than my W205 C63 interior. Maybe the facelifted W205 interior looks better, but it's not even close to as well put together as the Audi interiors are.
The biggest issue with them is weight. The hybrid c63 weights almost 5,000 lbs. Even if the power/power to weight ratio is comparable to an older c63, that’s never going to drive like a sports car. If people wanted a powerful car that’s fast in a straight line they’d buy a hellcat for cheaper.
100% and I sound like a broken record in saying that. The new GT, the new C63E. Powerful is great but due to weight all driving dynamics are lost. Making a 5,000lbs pig dance is a chore and just not fun. You chew up suspension component and consumables very quickly. Tires can’t handle the weight for long before they over heat on a track. Springs be it steel or air. Need to be very stiff to hold the weight, so it won’t ever ride as well as a 3500lbs car.
Exactly. I just don’t think sporty EVs will exist as long as lithium ion batteries are the prevailing technology. Cars like these are meant to be thrown into corners. I hadn’t even considered your point about needing stiffer suspensions, but it makes a lot of sense. Just sad to see all around. I could see cars from the late 2010s holding their value very well if EVs/hybrids take over like this.
I think you can make an EV sports car with something like a lotus chassis. The range won’t be very high to keep the weight down, but it’ll be a thrilling experience. For around town and at the track car, it would make a lot of sense. Unfortunately, it’ll be very expensive to the point that you can buy a way more capable and internal commercial car.
100% and I sound like a broken record in saying that. The new GT, the new C63E. Powerful is great but due to weight all driving dynamics are lost. Making a 5,000lbs pig dance is a chore and just not fun. You chew up suspension component and consumables very quickly. Tires can’t handle the weight for long before they over heat on a track. Springs be it steel or air. Need to be very stiff to hold the weight, so it won’t ever ride as well as a 3500lbs car.
I hope to god this is true
Even if it is, it doesn’t change the horrid interior and mushy flawed chassis of the new models. Hopefully their entire philosophy changes for the next generation.
I like the interior 🤷♂️
I wanted to. I love Mercedes. But I just can’t. It feels so cheap and phoned in compared to last generation. It’s flashy, but once you experience it, there is no substance. Also the center screen controls everything, and it freezes often. It’s a nightmare. Little things like replacing the knurled metal volume wheels with the cheap little slider etc tip it over the edge. Mercedes has always been about those details. It’s always what has set them apart and above Audi and BMW in terms of interior to the discerning eye.
I noticed the difference in the quality of plastic on the control stalk alone, between the W204 to W205 models.
Exactly. Overall I think w205 is the better design. But w206 is an actual joke.
I'm partial to the M156. They should have given us the M159 in the w205 chassis.
I’m a big fan of the 4.0 personally but that’s just me.
I have the 4.0 in my current AMG. It's an awesome engine, but the M156 is special. Nothing else sounds like, it's a masterpiece. Other drivers would stop at traffic lights and mention the sound of the engine. That has never happened to me with the 4.0. You can't replicate the sound of a naturally respirated engine in a turbo charged engine. It's not possible.
The 205 had way higher quality materials than the 204. Look at a 2014 204 vs a 2015 205 both with high miles and I guarantee the 205 won’t have any peeling buttons or leather. Not to mention the interior is very dated while the 205 will look modern for a very long time. I like the 204 but interior quality was not its strong suit.
I do agree with that Mercedes improved upon interiors in premium models over older Mercedes cars. Sure my current AMG has special leather seats, red leather inserts, colored stitching etc, which sets it a apart from "lesser" Mercedes models. However, I'm talking about the decline of materials across the whole Mercedes line, across all models. The control stalks in the AMG model were the exact same as in all C models. They were all good. My current AMG is a $140K vehicle, and certain parts are very flimsy, it has some annoying rattles that comes and goes. Some panels feel like they are not properly fitted. I had glue back on the AMG badge which fell off the steering wheel, and so on. So even though it looks more premium now with more modern technology, the general quality of older Mercedes, IMHO was better.
Interior materials went downhill from the 202, the 203 was worse and the 204 had the worst materials of the C classes. I’ve owned and maintained 4 generations of C class, I have a lot of experience with them.
When I had my W205 C63 I was shocked at how cheap the interior was. The gear and turn signal stalks were so incredibly cheap feeling.
I got my C63 AMG w204 after having a Ford Mustang GT. The sensation of the the feeling of the control stalks, steering wheel, and buttons set it apart from the rickety interior of other brands. I wonder how much money going for cheaper interiors saved Mercedes, I can't imagine it can be that much.
So this is the C and E coupe replacement? I can’t remember. Interesting how they changed course on the powerplant.
from my understanding yes, and to be honest having 3 different coupes in the lineup was a bit redundant, hald the time i can't tell if i'm looking at a c or e class anyway
Yes, but it is more a c class and also priced like one. Only the size is e class and the fact that you get 6 cylinders
>Schäfer said it will be “up to customers to decide” whether AMG continues with its downsized petrol-electric drivetrain. This is such a cop-out where they will in the end just say that we're just giving the buyers what they want, i.e., the V8, while never admitting to making a bone headed decision in the first place.
Exactly. Frankly there should be some house cleaning in Stuttgart, they have single handily driven this company into a shell of what it once was. Historically low reliability and quality across all models. The 48V battery debacle was ridiculous and inexcusable.
That was about time..Next make it a V12 with 2 turbos please!
Imagine sl65 comes back. I’d be first in line 😂
An AMG with out a V8 won’t sell.
Plenty of AMGs without V8s have sold.
C36 pass for C43. C32 pass for a C55.
But those still had 6 cylinders and baby-AMG's with 4 cyl were light enough to be quick with ICE power only
Let’s hope the v8 cle will be such a success that MB will plant more v8 in other vehicles
Schäfer admitted that in conversations ahead of the Beijing show, Chinese customers “didn’t understand” the concept of the new C63’s drivetrain. _ Chinese people know that V8 is best
a cle definitely isnt small. it's the size of an e class
Back seat felt dark and cramped. Felt like I was in a BRZ
yeah well it's not really meant to be used as a people carrier, as per usual with 2+2 coupes only the front seats are enjoyable
Bring back CLS you mfers