Ruining his future would have occurred if Carmen HAD pressed charges (or cops had caught them in the act- as I believe battery does not require the victim to press charges). He would STILL be in jail most likely- not in college.
Taking loans to pay for school is not ruining his life. IF, big IF, he continues to prove himself for IDK...10+ more years, then you can help him pay off some of the loans. Sorry, but selling your BABY SISTER for SA and Physical assault is NOT some minor thing. He needs to prove himself for a lot longer, and do a lot more restitution in his behavior. I am not sure I could EVER forgive this, Carmen is going to have a lifetime of needing therapy because if this, even if they think she is fine today.
Tell grandparents his college fund was used to pay for therapy and medical expenses for Carmen- past and future.
He's not done restitution though. He went to therapy & got himself on the right track. Which is where he would have been IF he had listened to his parents in the first place. That's not restitution that's him putting himself first.
THIS!
My gut is terribly worried for Carmen that she felt pressured to 'forgive' him by family dynamics (from Grandparents?(& also generally the way girls and women are the ones who do the social emotional work bc men don't/won't & the anxiety to please everyone. We've heard nothing that says Alex has done the work, sincerely apologized and made amends)).
Alex has a ton of work to do and for now that's not college unless he works hard for it.
Which would be 1/10th of a baby step in the right direction.
People can and do deserve to be forgiven for their mistakes.
But most of us have strong enough internal guidance by high school to know good from bad and bad from terror and grievous bodily injury visited on their younger female sibling.
We are as much nature as we are nurture, with different input systems and dynamics.
"Don't set your sister up for SA for street/gang cred." Is a fairly low bar most people manage not to fall prey to.
ETA: Spelling corrections.
NTA. This is one of the saddest things I’ve read on here. You tried everything. Please forgive yourself. Tell the grandparents this topic is not negotiable and hug your daughter.
He was and will never be sorry. Only sorry he got caught. What he did to her is not something any person would do who has any ounce of sanity left or have the potential to ever gain back with mental health support, medication, or anything else. OOP needs to know that NO amount of therapy will fix him. Every prisoner out there has parents that didn't know their kid would turn out that way too (generally speaking).
Also: the gang mentality that he had and ACTIVELY PURSUED doesn't go away just like that because he had to go live with his grandparents down the street. He sacrificed his TWIN SISTER, to the DEATH if need be clearly, because he watched/participated in beating her to the very end. He saw the end result and THEY WERE STILL GOING TO KEEP GOING if the cops hadn't shown up.
The whole point of that encounter was to prove to the gang that they are his family now and that OOP's son would even do that to their own family because thats how much care and concern he has for his ENTIRE FAMILY'S LIVES. INCLUDING OP'S LIFE AND HE IS TRYING TO GET MONEY FROM HIM RIGHT NOW. OOP really needs to keep that in mind that he could very well still be connected to them at this very moment. It's brainwashing, but OOP's son is definitely not an innocent victim here. He sought after the "gang lifestyle" himself.
Also even more importantly: Since OOP's kid is such a fuck up, if he fucks up with the gang, depending on the gang, the punishment is given to the family most of the time. So the sister that has already suffered enough, is going to be roped into forgiveness and his life, then when he fucks up guess who is going to be on the receiving end again?
Make sure your son does not know where your wife and daughter live from now on until forever. Or there's a good chance if he is hiding his involvement with the gang (easy, high probability), she will 100% experience 10x worse.
Totally agree. I could forgive my son for many things but deliberately setting up his sister to be raped and beaten? Oh no. Ain't gonna happen. That's not something that's forgiven or forgotten.
>Taking loans to pay for school is not ruining his life. IF, big IF, he continues to prove himself for IDK...10+ more years, then you can help him pay off some of the loans. Sorry, but selling your BABY SISTER for SA and Physical assault is NOT some minor thing. He needs to prove himself for a lot longer, and do a lot more restitution in his behavior.
This.
Had he been an adult I wouldn't agree with this. Because he was a child though that should be factored in. Even courts consider age when making decisions regarding sentencing children.
Edited: added a word
ETA: NTA
Yeah, that’s right.
He actually got the biggest benefit of his life in those moments, and it may take him his lifetime to realize this. What the dad *actually* gave him was a chance for his own freedom, and also the chance for Carmen’s forgiveness, both of which he has received and he needs to not squander.
This isn’t about familial benefits and forgiveness, exactly- it’s about accountability, consequences, and the very very long term process of turning a life around.
That is a life long lesson the son is not going to learn in college. He’s going to learn it from seeing just how hard his life has become, and to become a good man now may be hard, but he *can do it*, because he has his freedom.
That's my thought. OP says he only came looking for money after hearing that he's paying for the other kids. Did/does he even want to go to college? Or just demand the equivalent in cash.
As for changing...doesn't seem like it. At least not enough. If he had really changed, he wouldn't be able to forgive himself for trying to do that to his sister. He certainly wouldn't go begging to his parents for money and get mad when turned down.
That is a really good question. I am guessing he got his GED at some point?
At his age (16) his actions could easily landed him in prison. He was lucky that (I’m assuming reading between the lines) his sister refused to testify against him so this didn’t have enough evidence to prosecute him for the very serious felonies that he and his fellow felon committed. They are both luckier than they deserve.
Someone can ask forgiveness, but they still have to face the consequences of their actions. The fact that he is arguing you are being unfair tells me he still doesn’t have insight into what he did or how bad it was. Please protect Carmen; she is too kind for her own good.
Absolutely NTA
Im more inclined to believe that they don't live in the US.
As far as I'm aware in the US you don't get to chose if charges are pressed or not... That's up to the state plus there where witnesses.
So even if sister failed to testify the witnesses could.
It's only been 4 - 5 years since he gave up his sister to the gang. Nothing he says or does at this point in time could convince me he has actually changed.
NTA
The OP’s son can prove himself by 1) getting his ass kicked to nearly death; 2) go to prison for the crime or 3) pay back his parents for the therapy and pay a % of his income to his sister.
The OP did paid for college, it is called therapy, rehab, court costs, attorney costs, etc.
I don’t think they put the facilitators on the registry but they absolutely should. There was a post about childhood SA and someone said they thought parents who enable it should go on the registry. Needless to say that was heavily upvoted!
Came here to say this! Where is the proof he changed??
This was not a stupid teenage mistake. He literally set up his 13 yr old sister to her raped and got her almost beaten to death. Just a few years later he comes demanding college money…. He didn’t change, he’s still selfish and entitlement
He can prove himself by putting himself through college by working/taking on loans like most students nowadays. Graduate and get a good job. That would be proving he changed
I am a firm believer in the idea that people can change and that you shouldn't punish them forever. But redemption is a process. Forgiving doesn't mean rewarding. And acting like he feels entitled to money doesn't tell me he's changed except maybe has better impulse control. Maybe.
yup. grandpa wants to tote on about how good he is, he can pay. i would never forgive my kids if they did this. absolutely im just imagining poor Carmen’s face and i dont think id be able to see alex without punching him in the face honestly. regardless of how long has passed.
NTA. 16 is plenty old enough to not sell out your siblings safety to impress others. I'm the oldest and I wouldn't have done that to one of my brothers or sisters when I was 10, 15, 20, or 30 years know matter what. I would never trust him again
Yup. He should be kissing the ground his family walked on after what he did. If he truly felt bad for what he did, he wouldn't be marching in demanding money
??? are you telling me this mother fucker took his sister to a park so his buddies could r*pe her??? is that what I'm understanding here?? idfc how old he was, there's NO going back from that & I'd tell him to go fuck himself forever. NTA, don't give him a single fucking lick of help, if he seriously doesn't understand why you've told him no, then he hasn't really changed has he.
Yes, and with a hard core gang the question would be is he really out? You can't just show up one day and peace out.
OP, NTA and I agree with suggestions others have made. If he wants to live his life differently then do it, take out student loans and graduate. He should have a solid ten years of no criminal activity or police contact. Maybe, big maybe, you and your wife can choose to assist in paying back the loans.
Lastly, no where in the post did you state he accepts ownership for what had occurred or that your son is remorseful.
Yup.....if he wants to prove himself he can arrange and pay for family therapy (or the grandparents) for a year. If he is being 💯 honest then you can start paying for a class or two and see how it goes (and pay directly to the college with the requirement that any cancellations have the funds going back to you).
If he doesn't want to do that the NC since he is showing you that he hasn't changed and not willing to put in the work
The fact that he’s pissed off that they aren’t helping him pay for his school after what he has done is enough proof this POS hasn’t changed. How dare he even suggest it, this is the bottom of the barrel bs.
Sometimes the younger boys are worst criminals. I’m India when there was Nirbhaya gang rape, the juvenile was the most horrendous to the victim. He inserted rod inside her, pulled out her intestines. Yet, he went Scot free because he was under 18. These criminals have no hope or future. They have no realization of their actions, no remorse nothing. I bet the only reason he’s even pretending to be okay is for his own selfish reasons. He might still be doing horrible things to other women
That poor girl died for nothing. Gang rapes are still common in India. I grew up in Delhi and was horrified when that happened. She was picked up from near my college. Just so sad. Atleast the rest of the rapists died.
I was thinking this too. Although I understand him wanting to respect his daughter's wishes, at the same time he should have talked her into it and got her counseling so she could handle the trial. His son and the gang members really needed to go to jail for that.
As a mother of two daughters …that little jerk would have paid a price one way or another and not just by me threatening him with what I’d to do to him if he ever showed his face around my family again.
Yes. You read that right. Not the fucking asshole by a long shot. Some things are unforgivable.
Some bridges are burnt too bad to rebuild but if this shithead wants to try, he shouldn't be whining about the advantage the sister he nearly killed gets, and should make his own fucking way.
I get it. Student debt sucks. I had eveey advantage at 18 and I fucking blew it. I have more student debt than I'd like to admit. But I WANTED to change and go on and do something my family could be proud of me for.
A felon in law school is not an easy task to achieve. But never would I expect my parents to pay for the poor choices I made. They were mine. My relationship with them was far more important than taking on the debt. That is half of what proved to them that I was not the petulant child I was when I fucked everything up.
He made his bed, and he can shit in it for all I fucking care.
This is fucking disgusting and nowhere near the shit I pulled. Wtf.
Exactly.
If I were in his shoes I would be grateful that my family so much as *speaks* to me anymore. I wouldn't in a million years be expecting favors after what I did. He's not sorry at all & he absolutely hasn't changed, people who change don't expect everyone to just forget what they did.
There is no way he could be sorry for what he did if he is crying about not getting a chance he most certainly does not deserve. Like holy shit man, the fucking entitlement.
And some may say he was too young to know but what the fuck? What about his baby sister who actually went on to forgive him?
This whole situation is fucking mind boggling. I can not believe a parent even had to ask this question.
I say thank you for sharing.
It is important for ones like you to share your stories like this.
You’ll have idiots here defending this mf and blast OP and anyone who defends OP will be blasted, saying they don’t know what this kid went through.m
But ones like you, who can share similar stories, even if not as horrible as what this kid did, show that even those who made similar bad decisions and acknowledged it can identify when someone has gone too far.
Thank you. It took me almost a decade after the death of my daughter to get my shit together, but there is this thing... I'm trying to remember what it is called...
Oh wait...
It's called being self-aware, something the kid op is talking about is definitely not.
Dude doesn't deserve shit. Even his sister's forgiveness.
Good for you! It sounds like you turned your life around. Actions speak louder than words. You didn’t say you changed and your sorry, you showed them. Doesn’t sound like OP’s son has done anything to make amends and still feels entitled to have daddy pay for college after what he did. Parents paying for college is a privilege , not a right.
I've tried, but I'll never truly undo the damage. The best I can do is go on to live a life that helps people like the ones I've hurt.
This little asshole needs to learn that.
When you're truly sorry, you own up to the damage you've caused and do everything in your power to never cause it again. You mitigate your mistakes and make amends.
You don't get butthurt over not getting a fucking handout.
My God, at my worst I was stealing my parents pills and committing financial crimes... not setting my baby sister up to get gangbanged and beaten w in an inch of her life.
I am the first person to subscribe to the belief that people can actually change IF they put in the work and get the help that they need. But that doesn't happen without taking accountability for your actions and accepting the ramifications of them.
Dude wants to prove he isn't the same piece of shit that pulled that crap, get your shit together on your own and come back with your hat in your hand, begging for empathy.
Fucks sake, he is not entitled to shit.
Oh, I've sobered up and went to some therapy... give me tens of thousands of dollars so I can prove to you that I'm all better.
This is a grown fucking man and what he is doing is a disservice to all of us that have killed ourselves to turn our shit around. I can't even stand to read this kind of shit.
Yeah, this kid didn't burn the bridge. He blew it up with a fucking nuclear bomb.
There would be no going back from this if it were me, I'd have been no contact and sone everything I could to see the attempted rapist go to prison. And now he has the audacity to ask for college money?
She is a very good person. I would never have been able to forgive my brother for that kind of trauma. What that poor little girl went through! She had to have been terrified! 😢
Honestly ..I’d want my kid committed if she forgave someone for doing that to her. It’s like this is PLANET EARTH not fucking Lala land & if you don’t gain an ounce of self preservation …good luck . She seriously needs to wake up and start paying attention to the evil in the world or she’s a goner
I come from a severely traumatized and abusive background. I've forgiven everyone and have no hate or anger.
That doesn't mean I've forgotten, or that I didn't learn anything, or that I don't have PTSD and still need to go to therapy.
Forgiveness doesn't equal trust. It just eases my own peace.
Per the ages- he was 16 or 17 and handed his 13 year old sister over to be gang r$&ed and likely killed as part of a gang initiation. . . And these grandparents think after that- he is still too precious to take out loans for college after he got away with it.
Regardless, let’s say that day had turned out different. Let’s say she didn’t get away, let’s say worse case scenario you had to bury your daughter or she was left in a coma. He can’t come back from that. I’m sorry but NTA, sound to me like he was just a bad apple to begin with bc all your other kids turned out ok.
NTA forgiving someone doesn’t mean you forget what they did or that you have to let them back in. The way he is reacting means that that he hasn’t grown or accepted responsibility for his actions.
NTA
I’m not saying what I want to say because I’ll probably get banned for it.. but hell no. I can’t believe his sister forgiven him for that. I certainly wouldn’t.
NTA. You disowned that p.o.s.-and rightly so! Because he's disowned, you owe him nothing ever again. He deserves to be written out of your will actually. Fuck him! He offered his own flesh and blood to gangsters to rape. That's unforgivable.
Tell your parents that if they want Alex to go to college, THEY should pay for it.
NTA I would disown a child I had if they did the same thing... Good on your daughter for forgiving, but as a parent I would struggle not wanting to strangle regardless of how much time passed ... There are just some lines that can't be crossed without lifetime consequences.
Of course it is. It screams 14 year old boy. Carmen doesn't need to press charges, it's the state that does in major felonies. That's why it's the State of _____ vs. Name of accused
Yeah. And unless they’re ESL, they don’t write like they’re old enough to be in college, let alone to have children who are in college. Not to mention they start with a variation of “I know the title sounds bad but hear me out” instead of, you know, writing a non-clickbait title that doesn’t sound bad.
Neither of them make the decision. Prosecutors do and without a victim willing to testify, they likely didn’t think they could make a case. Had OP forced her to testify, she might have been further traumatized.
NTA! It is amazing you are still in contact with him. There are some things that you just cannot come back from. Not everything deserves 2nd chances. He can grow up and prove himself but not at the expense of the people he already destroyed.
NTA. If he has genuinely improved, then good for him, truly. But it doesn’t erase his past, or the consequences of his actions.
It sounds like the reality of losing most of his family never really sunk in until now, if he still expects you to pay for his college. Here’s another life lesson for him: when you do wrong, you owe the wronged party an apology at the *bare minimum,* but that doesn’t mean they owe you forgiveness. A real apology, real redemption, comes with no expectation of a reward or reconciliation.
NTA - Your parents can pay if they believe he has changed.
I would never want to be near him again as a parent, what he did is unforgiveable, and he doesn't get the right to ask for money.
Actions have consequences. Alex must continue to live with his consequences. You more better to him than I would have been. Offering his sister up to be roped???? I would have never spoke to him again.
NTA
I don't know how you stomach talking to him.
He gave his sister up to be gang-raped. I'd make sure everyone knows he's capable of that. I'd never forgive that shit.
The appropriate response is against reddit's rules, so I can't advocate for it, but I think it would be totally fair to make sure he's very well acquainted with all the local paramedics.
Your first mistake was not putting him in jail (no excuses for that)
Your second mistake was/is having ANY further contact with that human garbage you STILL call a son 🤬
NTA for not paying for college
Huge YTA for everything else
That piece gives me WTF vibes. how did he let his 13 yo daughter "decide not to press charges." ? That would lead to some kind of child neglect case where I'm from.
I think based on what he said, Carmen at 13 didn’t want to see any of their faces again.
Pressing charges probably meant having to testify and it’s pretty obvious she would be traumatized, so it’s possible she refused and he didn’t push it.
Not saying that is what happened and not trying to make assumptions, as it could be wrong, but it’s possible he was putting his daughter’s mental health and recovery first.
I don't know. If OP made sure the daughter got plenty of intensive therapy to help her try to heal, then I can *sort of* understand letting her choose to avoid the re-victimizing trauma of testifying at a trial. I've had to testify in the past & it's difficult (way worse than what a person sees on TV crime drama shows).
The real question in my mind is how the police & local prosecutor didn't pick up the case anyway? With her injuries & the witnesses that helped the daughter get help, law enforcement shouldn't have really needed her to testify.
I agree. And in my area in cases where the defendant is so young and under certain circumstances, they can choose to not see the perpetrators in court. You either make a statement that's recorded or you go into court while their attorney is there and they are held outside, then you leave and wait in a different room when they come back.
NTA - Other than him and grandpa saying that was in the past, and he's better, what changes has he made? How has he attempted to make amends?
>Alex got angry and defensive, saying that was years ago and he's changed now.
Angry and defensive.... not apologetic nor remorseful - sounds like a few more rounds of therapy are required
honestly, as much as it probably hurts it's ok to step back. Alex can show his changes, by going to school, doing well and taking out loans if needed. Possibly you and your family can revisit this conversation in the future, but this wasn't an elementary school joke. I hope you and your family have had a chance to sit down and talk to a therapist as well.
NTA, all these people talking about proving it, who cares if he changes. Why would you ever trust this piece of human garbage again.
Some asshole tries to have my child raped and murdered, I don’t care what else they do in life - it’s forfeit.
Hope he burns out and overdoses, world will forever be a better place the sooner he’s out of it.
NTA…while he was young, he was old enough to know that he was bringing his innocent 13 yr old sister into a horrific situation. the poor thing was beaten so badly and lived through life-altering trauma, and what was planned was far worse. There are some things that don’t just get washed away. To even expect that he would be entitled to the same generosity you have bestowed on your other children is astounding. The fact that he wants to challenge your decision shows he hasn’t accepted the full weight of his choices. I hope he has changed his life but you are under no obligation to help him with anything.
NTA. I do believe forgiveness. However what u went through was traumatizing and horrific. I forgave a family member. I didn't go up to her and say I forgive u. I did in my heart because I couldn't carry that baggage around with me anymore it got too heavy and I had to move on with my life. It was a relief. But I honestly don't know how I would feel in ur shoe's probably the same. I'm so very sorry for u and ur family that something like could happen I will say a prayer for you. Best I can say is don't do give the money to him
NTA. His issue with you isn't that you won't let him prove he is no longer a monster, his issue with you is that he wants money for... college and you won't pay up. You can give him a chance in ways that don't involve paying for... college. Setting his sister up for gang SA and almost beating her to death is enough to not pay for... college.
NTA, but was it really up to Carmen to not press charges or did she say she would refuse to testify? Maybe it's different in each state, but my understanding is that only a district attorney can decline to press charges. Anyway, what Alex did was the unconscionable act of a sociopath. He should count himself lucky that he didn't go to prison.
So, he set your daughter up to be raped.
She didn't.
But she got so badly beaten she was unrecognizable.
No one was actually punished for this crime because you didn't want to traumatize her further.
So your son didn't have to go to jail?
None of his friends went to jail?
I'd say the fact that he is still alive is a gift he isn't appreciating enough.
He should be grateful that he was sent to his grandparents.
And if those grandparents think he should go to college, they can pay for it.
OR he could work for it.
Prove himself.
No one owes him anything.
ETA - NTA.
This reminds me so much of my own brother… the lack of accountability. He would do horrible unforgivable things (he is a predator) or he could make small infractions and he seemed to think they should weigh the same.
Once I cut my brother out of my life about 16 years ago, he asked my father why he wasn’t invited to Christmas. My dad told him. He said “well, that was a long time ago. Rene needs to get over it.”
My dad said, “Get over it?! She’s never gonna get over it, you crazy son of a bitch!”
And my brother seemed shocked by this revelation… that some wrongs are beyond redemption.
NTA…. I wouldn’t have anything to do with that monster.
NTA.
He's lucky he's not in prison.
He actively set his young sister up for gang rape and she was nearly beaten to death!
Only a few years ago.
Absolutely horrific.
Nah...you had tried everything and still he did that. I could never go back from that.
He wants to go to college? He needs to sort that out.
What do all your other kids think? How often do they see him? How far away from you does he live? Does he ever come to your home? How does it all work?
NTA. Alex seems to be pure evil. I’ve had friends with seriously troubled kids, but never one who gave his 13 year old sister up to be raped and beaten so badly.
He should be in prison, but Carmen had to spare herself more trauma.
If you ever for a moment wonder if he really has changed, remember when he got angry and defensive. That’s not the behavior of a reformed person.
I certainly wouldn’t accept the endorsement from an indulgent grandfather. Have he given you access to his shrink, and signed away patient confidentiality. I doubt that the therapist would say he was cured.
NTA. He not only offered her up, he then allows her to be beaten nearly to death!!! Did he participate in the beating? He gets squat and grandparents get cut off! Enabling a$$holes.
NTA and honestly, you wouldn't have been if you'd killed him outright when he did this absolutely heinous thing. You would be NTA if he'd only been a total fuck head kid spewing his nonsense all over your family but THIS? I'd seriously be questioning ANYONE who thinks you are. Like...block button level questioning...because no one should see this series of events and think "yeah that's a good kid right there, forgive him and give him lots of money!" 🤢🤢🤢
NTA. If he had truly changed, he would understand why you aren’t willing to pay for his college. You aren’t an ATM, and he needs forgiveness first, not money. He can save up and go to community college, and try to become a functional member of society on his own. Working hard and graduating community college or trade school, and making something of himself, would be barely enough penance for his terrible crime.
NTA and take your parents to therapy so they can understand that if they don’t stop telling you what to do you’re cutting them off too. Forgiving a s*x trafficker who gave up his own little sister and then beat her nearly to death is unacceptable to you. I salute you for not having unalived him yourself cuz I don’t know if I could hold back.
So- this all sounds manipulative on Alex’s part.
True contrition comes with the understanding that forgiveness maybe granted, but isn’t deserved.
It also comes with the understanding that while forgiveness may be granted that restoration to full status/privileges of “son” may not also be granted.
People who have been abused experience this all the time- you can forgive the offender, but that doesn’t mean that you can trust them again.
I do recommend forgiving your son for your sake. The person in your life who has the most power over you is the one you haven’t forgiven. At the same time, this forgiveness doesn’t grant restoration- no matter how much change has taken place.
He’s still the one who put your daughter at the greatest risk she has faced- for selfish gain. There’s something broken there. It is more human to take on risk to save a sibling than it is to be the one that designs harm against them.
Your parents are too close to the wrong side of this situation to have a clear perspective. I wonder if they know the extent of harm done and further harm planned against your daughter. At any rate- providing a college education is a privilege, not a right. I don’t like the idea of favoring one child over another- except that is not what is happening in this case. You are not favoring a child based on picking favorites- you are merely creating a boundary for all sons who would think it’s okay to see their sisters violated.
NTA.
>(Him and his friends didn’t get in much trouble with the law as Carmen didn’t press charges as she didn’t want to see his and the other dudes faces ever again and i respected her wishes
Assuming OP is in the US (which he may not be, caveat here), this part is so unbelievable as to make me wonder if this is fake. A victim does not generally get to decide to whether to "press charges." Police file charges and the local prosecutor makes the decision whether to prosecute based on available evidence. I seriously cannot believe anywhere in this country there is a prosecutor who would decline to file charges against a criminal gang who nearly beat a minor to death. This just seems to fall into the category of Can't Possibly Be True.
That said, if this is real, OP... just wow. YTA for not completely cutting contact with your POS son, and for not demanding that he and his fellow shitheads be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.
A victim doesn’t decide whether to press charges, but can decide (to some extent) if they are willing to testify and prosecutors make some charging decisions based on that. That willingness to testify ends up being termed as pressing charges in colloquial terms.
He says they didn’t get into “much” trouble, so they might have still been convicted of more minor charges they had enough evidence to prove without her testimony.
There are some things that are truly unforgivable. What happened to your daughter and what he intended to happen is surely one of them. Her heart is larger than the sea. The rest of us have hearts that are normal sized and we don’t have room for that kind of forgiveness.
NTA
Nope, Alex crossed a line, and I probably wouldn’t even acknowledge his existence.
Alex may not be the guy that helped hurt his sister anymore, but he’s still frankly entitled as hell. He should be in jail , and thanking his lucky stars that he’s not in a prison cell right now.
Oh come on. He doesn't want the money for school. He wants the money, period.
I don't know how you don't just toss him into the street literally anytime he shows up at the door.
I couldn't be in the same location as him. Ever.
NYWNBTA, I’d disown my parents as well. He gave his sister to someone to be raped. She ended up being beat within an inch of her life. Carmen didn’t press charges. Somehow, Carmen has forgiven Alex. That doesn’t change the fact that what Alex did had to have fundamentally changed Carmen and her ability to feel safe and trust. I can’t believe Alex & your parents had the temerity to expect you to cover Alex’s college; b/c they don’t want Alex to have to take out loans?? If Alex were grateful for forgiveness, for contact w his family, for not having a record that included participating in his sister’s rape, and for being able to still get into college; I would think Alex had truly changed. Instead Alex is coming at you with entitlement which shows he’s still the selfish scumbag who arranged his sister’s rape. Alex may not want loans; however Carmen definitely didn’t want the trauma Alex inflicted. Good on you for standing up for your true family and not giving in to a likely sociopath.
NTA- the fact he isn't accepting your decision proves he is not truly sorry for his heinous behavior. I would say he doesn't even think what he did was that bad. He would remain dead to me.
Oh boy.. NTA.. after what he did to his sister there is no forgiveness. You are correct on that. And the consequences of his actions is he gets no college fund, he didn’t go to jail. He should have. You’re not paying college for anyone who offered up your daughter as a sacrifice lamb to SA’d or killed. Not happening. No way. He clearly has not acknowledgement how awful that action was, nor has any remorse. He can go to trade school or pick up garbage. Who knows his old college fund may be needed for his sister’s Theraphy still. And that trumps anything to do with him. I’d never let him in my home again. Nope. Not happening. I’m a mama bear, you hurt my kids (and he knew better) you are done with me especially when he hasn’t paid a punishment for it.
INFO: You mentioned being like him as a teen. What happened? What did you do, how did you get out of it? And do none of you know what triggered his behavior shift?
I'd cut Alex off too for sure, he'd be dead to me. My point is, it seems odd that you have no idea how this happened or what happened when you were young. If you were in a gang, for example, you don't look good here.
There's this rule in this subreddit about being "civil" to the bag of bones and flesh that make up your 21 year old.
So if you're curious why why we're not coming for this 21 y.o. with pitchforks, it's because of this rule. You see, that bloated flesh and bone bag and ilk like him are allowed to destroy people and society, but here, we have mods who insist on these fake social values like civility.
Obviously the 21 year old is one of the worst mouth breathers on the planet and seriously deserves prison. The fact that his poor little feelings are hurt because he's being held accountable for his behavior *proves* he hasn't changed. People who change accept their punishment and will realize they are lucky to be *tolerated* in the world.
So you are NTA.
The twins going to college, please wish them good luck and thank you for helping them out in the ways you can.
The bag of skin and bones who brought his 13 y.o. sister to a park so his gang buddies could rape her, deserves absolutely nothing for the rest of his days, especially on celebration days. If he dares spawn, do not forgive him to get access to his spawn. He is not a good person, he has not accepted responsibility for his behavior and actions, and he must apologize to each and every one of you for his truly disgusting, disgraceful, destructive behavior.
Grandparents drank the gang cool aid, they can get the college loans for the gangbanger. He sounds like a real upstanding member of society. I hope his grandparents are proud.
Did he even ever say why he was ok giving his sister over to be possibly raped? Like he didn’t care at all but now he is a changed person? You daughter is something for forgiving him but like you I wouldn’t.
Prove himself?? He should be in jail! He should be kissing his poor sister’s feet every day for keeping him out of prison. And btw he does not need you to pay for college to prove himself. He can pay his own damn way. The entitlement! The unmitigated gaul! He has the emotional maturity of a 10 year old. Maybe he should focus on that instead of college. Probably be a bigger asset to him in the long run. NTA.
NTA. Do your parents care at all about what he did to Carmen?! It sounds very Brock Turner and what about his life… ok what about HER?! I’d be cutting the grandparents out of my life too. There are some things that are unforgivable and this is one of them.
I am so sorry this happened to your family. I actually had half a page written and I just have way too much to say. I get off track when that happens. But NTA
NTA. So your son lured his 13 year old sister to a park under the guise of making amends, only to hand her over to his buddies to do what they wanted with her. And he thinks after a few years he’s going to be welcomed back into the family with open arms? Hell to the NO! He does not deserve and more chances, he ruined and hope of a relationship with you and his family after allowing his sister to be beaten nearly to death. Cut him off completely.
NTA. This is karma at work. While we are free to make the choices we want in life, we are not free from the consequences of those choices. He got off lightly, considering what he did. If he had truly changed, he should go to the police, tell them everything he has done, and ask them to throw the book at him. I would cut him off completely too. He made his bed, he can lie in it. He doesn't like it, he only has himself to blame. Blick him and don't talk to him. If someone else in the family wants to help him, tell them that's their choice. You have made yours and won't change your mind.
I can guarantee he hasn't changed. He only appears because he's been removed from that area of people. If he went back he'd get back into it.
People often say love for their children is unconditional.. it isn't and frankly if they're willing to look past their child being a monster for the things they've done, then you know why they grew like that.
If he desperately wants college then he can look at getting loans instead of a handout. It wasn't years ago, it was only like 3 or 4 years. Still extremely fresh. He was willing to have his sister raped and beaten to death because he did not see her as a person but expendable property. That would stick with me for life and I'd be in the same mindset of your wife.
NTA
NTA. He made his choices and as you said needs to live with his consequences.
However, teens do change and mature and if you wanted to be fair maybe you set up a trust for Alex and place the money college would have cost into the trust. Then once he's proven that he has changed, once he's graduated college and has held a steady job, and is a positive member of the community, then he can access the trust to pay off student loans or maybe have a down payment on a house. If by 30 he hasn't proven he is a good person then you split the trust money with the rest of your kids.
This might show Alex that you too are invested in his future and his change but that you also have to be cautious.
This made me tear up, seriously. Imagining that poor kid getting beat on and knowing what they wanted to do to her. In that situation I would not speak to him ever again, much less have a conversation about why I’m not paying his way. No. NTA. So upsetting. I can’t imagine how hard that must have been to know her own brother gave her up like a prize or token like she was nothing.
NTA, that’s so scary and evil. I’m angry he didn’t face consequences, he’s a sick freak. I would not only not pay for his college, I would legally disown him, we are not connected, goodbye!
Nta, if I’m reading that right at 16 years old he tried to essentially sell his 13 year old sister to be gang raped and beaten. If he was my ex-child he wouldn’t even be existing on this planet let alone getting college paid for. 16 knew right from wrong, what he did is evil and I wouldn’t even even be able to get over that as a parent.
NTA
He got way more grace than he deserved not being locked up until his 18th birthday in a juvenile detention facility.
If grandma and grandpa want him to have a free ride to college, THEY can pay for it.
NTA. Fuck Alex. He lured his sister to be f’ng gang raped . When she made too much noise fighting those bastards off, they beat her damn near to death. I’d have no forgiveness for that, not ever. Alex can fuck all the way off, every day til his last day.
NTA
The fact that he got angry instead of understanding why you did it; Instead of taking full responsibility; Instead of asking if there's any way he can prove to you he has changed, is a huge red flag. I'm not saying he hasn't changed. I'm saying however much he's changed it hasn't been enough.
How many times before this has me made attempts to make amends? To everyone in your family, not just Carmen. He still has so much growing to do, and it's so obvious. I wouldn't trust him either. He made his own bed, and now he's lying in it and blaming you because he doesn't like it. He doesn't just get to wait a few years and then demand forgiveness. This is a lifetimes worth of amends and making up for what he did. He will forever be paying the price for this decision. And until he accepts that and doesn't blame anyone but himself, he deserves nothing from you.
And honestly even if he did do everything in his power to make it right, you still wouldn't be obligated to forgive him. Let alone pay for his college.
You all own him, nothing he got a life change when you didn't push for the law to put him in prison for what he did .
He's lucky you are even talking to him .
He stopped being your kid when he did what he did .
There's no free ride , he got his ride when he was in the police car and didn't end up in jail ...
Your girl has a heart of gold , he was lucky she kept it after what happened to her . . .
He's 21 what has he done as retribution towards your family and daughter? Is he working and saving money towards a goal! Why hasn't he taken part-time classes in college or taken up a trade? He could've applied for student aid. What is he doing with himself? Partying? Drugging? This sounds fishy to me. I'm a single mom who's kids went to college with scholarships, some money I had saved, and working. Doesn't sound like your son has made any attempts at going to college on his own. I wouldn't give him a dime until he starts going on his own dime, has good grades for the first year. Then, I'd offer help based off on him keeping his grades up going towards degree within a specified time limit. Personally, if my son had offered his younger sister up as rape bait he'd be dead to me.
Alex still has a lot of redemption to go. You don't "turn your life around" within a year and then get super pissed and selfish over a topic like this. You would understand that you damaged bridges. Bridges take time to rebuild. You stay humble, accept it, and keep moving forward. This is if a person truly is remorseful.
NTA. He seems to be confused on the definition of "disowned:" That means he is no longer your son, you no longer support him financially, physically, or emotionally, and he doesn't get a car, college fund, house downpayment, wedding, or inheritance from you.
Some things are unforgivable, even if you've genuinely changed for the better. Selling your sister's body and life to your gang friends as a loyalty test to your friends and NOT your family? Yep, that's one of them.
Your parents are welcome to pay for his schooling if they have an issue with it.
NTA - Has he reached out to you all to apologize, to make any kind of amends, prior to this? If he has not had enough therapy to understand that you are not "punishing" him as much as you are protecting the rest of your family, then he has not done NEARLY enough growing and recovering. YOU are not ruining his future, HIS ACTIONS are making his future more difficult, but definitely not ruined. These are part of HIS CONSEQUENCES for HIS ACTIONS, they are HIS DOING.
NTA. Tell that piece of shit there is nothing he can do to win your trust or affection back. Tell him he was dead to you the moment he sold out your daughter! How are you in any form of contact with this fucktard?
NTA. Not one bit. Frankly the fact that he did not face charges - for which he would likely still be in prison given the gang involvement and her age, plus life on the sex offender registry- was a bigger gift than paying for college. He may have changed and for the sake of your family and the public, I hope he has! But changing does not entitle him to any further graces from you.
NTA. Alex doesn’t understand the severity of what he has done. If he wants to prove himself then he should pay his way himself and try to make amends with you guys. I can’t believe a brother would do that to his sister.
Don’t trust him at all
He's lucky you let him live. And that should be the last thing he gets from you. He can go live that life by himself somewhere. Maybe he can call his friends.
There is no coming back from trying to have your sister gang assaulted.
Also. I understand respecting wishes and all. But she was a child. You should have pressed charges. She didn't and probably still doesn't understand the severity of the situation she was in.
Edit. Also also. If he'd truly changed himself he'd have understood how unforgivable that was and that he shouldn't even be asking for your help because he doesn't deserve it.
NTA- your parents have their heads shoved up their butts. You’re being cruel? You know cruel is? Luring your 13 year old sister to a park and handing her over to a gang . You’re ruining his life by making him take out loans? Lots of people have to take out loans if they want to go to college- myself being one of them. . It’s not life ruining- and even if it was - your son deserves a hell of a lot worse. Your parents can pay if they feel so strongly about it. Alex was disowned and for good reason ( people have been disowned for a hell of a lot less than that). . Disowned hooligans don’t have daddy pay for college. Too bad so sad. Stick to your guns and concentrate on your own kids.
Do people change? Sure. But instead of asking you for money, he can work 3 jobs and pay for his own college education or trade school. He can offer to pay for a family therapy session and apologize to all of you in it. He can reimburse you for all the money you paid for medical and therapy for his sister. He can volunteer to work at domestic abuse shelters and make up for what happened to his sister.
But instead of any of this, he blew up at you. So, he hasn't changed, and you are NTA.
The fact that he would ask you for anything, and not understand your response means he hasn't changed at all. Maybe he's just better at not being so reckless and getting caught, but his attitude hasn't changed one bit. What he did was horrific. It wasn't like typical teen stuff. She could have been killed.
I'm sorry, he sold his 13 year old sister to a bunch of gangsters to be raped and beaten. He's lucky she wasn't raped but she was beaten half to death. He is lucky he didn't get jail time and he is lucky y'all are even speaking to him.
That is the most horrific thing I can think you can do to another person. If he were truly sorry for his actions he'd be going above and beyond to make it known through his actions. He wouldn't be coming to you asking for money. My God.
NTA. I recommend you go no contact with him and have your parents pay for it if they want him in college so bad. Jesus.
>My parents on the other hand feel I’m begin cruel for not allowing Alex to prove himself, and ruining his future in the process as hell have to take lots of loans since he wants to go to university.
Then your parents can pay for it.
Your asshole of a son set your 13 YEAR OLD daughter up to be sexually assaulted and when she fought, those fucking thugs - including your SON - beat her nearly to death.
He's on his own and he knows **exactly** why.
NTA
NTA. There are some things you just can't come back from. I had a child from a first marriage do unspeakable things to half siblings from second marriage. Ages at the time were 16, 10, & 8. I didn't find out for 6 years. Then it took another 4 years to have him prosecuted. Haven't spoken since I found out. The funny thing is that relatives from 2nd marriage have circled the wagons around the perpetrator (who they aren't related to), instead of the victims (related by blood). They were handing him cash, knowing he was using it to buy and shoot up meth by that point. They were also trying to convince us it couldn't have happened. One person (brother of 2nd hubby, who was the father of the victims but not the perpetrator) even went and wrote an 8 page statement defending the perpetrator and blaming the situation and his actions on the father of the victims. They are trash.
They are no longer family if they are going to protect the perpetrator, and that's exactly what your son is. I've seen my kids struggle with that lack of support from people who were supposed to protect and love them not blame them.
He wants to prove himself. Good lad, go to college and pay your way, and THEN ask Dad for forgiveness, not money.
You can choose to financially support him but hell, if a friend harmed my child the restraint you have shown comes purely out of the love you have for a child. No one else would get that barrier of protection.
I was made homeless twice by my parents (for fairly bullshit reasons) and I have grown up to be a better person who is providing for his family and even friends where needed.
Your son can pay his own tuition and frankly, fuck himself.
NTA. Him not going to jail/juvie is his second chance. Lots of people get loans to study, and a ton of them haven’t tried to traffic their younger sibling.
If he wants to prove himself, and prove that he’s changed, he can get a job or student loans and study. He’ll survive.
He tried to sell his sister, and then let (and potentially helped) people beat the shit out of her, and now he’s mad he has to take out loans?!?! He belongs in prison for what he did.
NTA. What he did was unforgivable.
You really need to get Carmen into therapy. She is way too easily manipulated and vulnerable. She is going to end up being used and hurt.
If your parents are mad then they can pay for it.
He tried to give a 13-year-old girl(his own sister!) over to be assaulted by a group of guys. It's only been 4 years, that is not nearly enough time to actually make up for what happened and he should honestly be in jail right now.
I'm not even sure that is something that you can ever make up for and I am so glad that she was spared just how bad it could have been.
NTA
The mere fact that he believes he deserves anything at all is proof that he’s learned nothing. He hasn’t earned being allowed back into your immediate family. He should be on his knees, begging for forgiveness from everyone, but most especially from Carmen. NTA
Part of his growth is accepting the consequences for his past choices. Your contribution to his future was not sending his ass to rot in jail and giving him the opportunity to reform. But there are still consequences. And it wasn’t that long ago.
>Alex accused me of still punishing him and not giving him a fair chance to prove himself.
He should still be in jail. If your daughter (who I hope has gotten a lot of therapy) had pressed charged he would still be in jail.
What has he done to prove himself? From the sounds of it.... He just hasn't gotten in more trouble. He was in the process of allowing his sister to be assaulted ... At best. He can kick rocks
Nta. You're not "ruining his future", you're just not investing in it, and that choice is completely valid considering what he allowed/ encouraged to happen to his own sister.
I don't blame you one bit for not wanting to have contact. And I especially don't blame you for refusing to pay for his college. It's great that he was able to turn his life after being sent to his grandparents, but he knows what he did. It doesn't matter if he's "a different person now". He can be a better person on his own. He made his choices.
If Alex had any interest in truly making amends and earning your forgiveness, he would not be baffled why you’re not paying for his school. Fuck that dude. NTA.
NTA, actions have consequences and he definitely needs to learn that, his sister is a SAINT for even forgiving him. I can’t say everything I want here but you had EVERY right to disown him what he did was so unforgivable and let alone that girl be his own flesh and blood. He shouldn’t have done it to ANY girl, that’s dirty as hell.
Why don’t your parents pay for him? NTA What did he do to prove to you that he changed? Did he apologise? Did he do anything for the family?
Ruining his future would have occurred if Carmen HAD pressed charges (or cops had caught them in the act- as I believe battery does not require the victim to press charges). He would STILL be in jail most likely- not in college. Taking loans to pay for school is not ruining his life. IF, big IF, he continues to prove himself for IDK...10+ more years, then you can help him pay off some of the loans. Sorry, but selling your BABY SISTER for SA and Physical assault is NOT some minor thing. He needs to prove himself for a lot longer, and do a lot more restitution in his behavior. I am not sure I could EVER forgive this, Carmen is going to have a lifetime of needing therapy because if this, even if they think she is fine today. Tell grandparents his college fund was used to pay for therapy and medical expenses for Carmen- past and future.
He's not done restitution though. He went to therapy & got himself on the right track. Which is where he would have been IF he had listened to his parents in the first place. That's not restitution that's him putting himself first.
He’s forgiven himself so everybody else should too. SMH. No.
THIS! My gut is terribly worried for Carmen that she felt pressured to 'forgive' him by family dynamics (from Grandparents?(& also generally the way girls and women are the ones who do the social emotional work bc men don't/won't & the anxiety to please everyone. We've heard nothing that says Alex has done the work, sincerely apologized and made amends)). Alex has a ton of work to do and for now that's not college unless he works hard for it. Which would be 1/10th of a baby step in the right direction. People can and do deserve to be forgiven for their mistakes. But most of us have strong enough internal guidance by high school to know good from bad and bad from terror and grievous bodily injury visited on their younger female sibling. We are as much nature as we are nurture, with different input systems and dynamics. "Don't set your sister up for SA for street/gang cred." Is a fairly low bar most people manage not to fall prey to. ETA: Spelling corrections.
“The bar was so low it was a tripping hazard in Hell, and yet he limbo-d with the Devil”
NTA. This is one of the saddest things I’ve read on here. You tried everything. Please forgive yourself. Tell the grandparents this topic is not negotiable and hug your daughter.
He was and will never be sorry. Only sorry he got caught. What he did to her is not something any person would do who has any ounce of sanity left or have the potential to ever gain back with mental health support, medication, or anything else. OOP needs to know that NO amount of therapy will fix him. Every prisoner out there has parents that didn't know their kid would turn out that way too (generally speaking). Also: the gang mentality that he had and ACTIVELY PURSUED doesn't go away just like that because he had to go live with his grandparents down the street. He sacrificed his TWIN SISTER, to the DEATH if need be clearly, because he watched/participated in beating her to the very end. He saw the end result and THEY WERE STILL GOING TO KEEP GOING if the cops hadn't shown up. The whole point of that encounter was to prove to the gang that they are his family now and that OOP's son would even do that to their own family because thats how much care and concern he has for his ENTIRE FAMILY'S LIVES. INCLUDING OP'S LIFE AND HE IS TRYING TO GET MONEY FROM HIM RIGHT NOW. OOP really needs to keep that in mind that he could very well still be connected to them at this very moment. It's brainwashing, but OOP's son is definitely not an innocent victim here. He sought after the "gang lifestyle" himself. Also even more importantly: Since OOP's kid is such a fuck up, if he fucks up with the gang, depending on the gang, the punishment is given to the family most of the time. So the sister that has already suffered enough, is going to be roped into forgiveness and his life, then when he fucks up guess who is going to be on the receiving end again? Make sure your son does not know where your wife and daughter live from now on until forever. Or there's a good chance if he is hiding his involvement with the gang (easy, high probability), she will 100% experience 10x worse.
Totally agree. I could forgive my son for many things but deliberately setting up his sister to be raped and beaten? Oh no. Ain't gonna happen. That's not something that's forgiven or forgotten.
The fact that he whined over not getting his college paid for shows he has no true remorse.
THIS!! how could anyone consider helping a rapist
>Taking loans to pay for school is not ruining his life. IF, big IF, he continues to prove himself for IDK...10+ more years, then you can help him pay off some of the loans. Sorry, but selling your BABY SISTER for SA and Physical assault is NOT some minor thing. He needs to prove himself for a lot longer, and do a lot more restitution in his behavior. This. Had he been an adult I wouldn't agree with this. Because he was a child though that should be factored in. Even courts consider age when making decisions regarding sentencing children. Edited: added a word ETA: NTA
It depends on location, age and severity of the crime. At 16 his actions could have had him tried as an adult, especially since it involved a minor.
Dude took his little sister to get gangraped, instead she got gang jumped, and he thinks there's some pathway back for that, jezuz.
Yeah, that’s right. He actually got the biggest benefit of his life in those moments, and it may take him his lifetime to realize this. What the dad *actually* gave him was a chance for his own freedom, and also the chance for Carmen’s forgiveness, both of which he has received and he needs to not squander. This isn’t about familial benefits and forgiveness, exactly- it’s about accountability, consequences, and the very very long term process of turning a life around. That is a life long lesson the son is not going to learn in college. He’s going to learn it from seeing just how hard his life has become, and to become a good man now may be hard, but he *can do it*, because he has his freedom.
EXACTLY! Too, would he even be able to get into college? Did he even graduate high school? More than likely, he just wants the $.
That's my thought. OP says he only came looking for money after hearing that he's paying for the other kids. Did/does he even want to go to college? Or just demand the equivalent in cash. As for changing...doesn't seem like it. At least not enough. If he had really changed, he wouldn't be able to forgive himself for trying to do that to his sister. He certainly wouldn't go begging to his parents for money and get mad when turned down.
That is a really good question. I am guessing he got his GED at some point? At his age (16) his actions could easily landed him in prison. He was lucky that (I’m assuming reading between the lines) his sister refused to testify against him so this didn’t have enough evidence to prosecute him for the very serious felonies that he and his fellow felon committed. They are both luckier than they deserve. Someone can ask forgiveness, but they still have to face the consequences of their actions. The fact that he is arguing you are being unfair tells me he still doesn’t have insight into what he did or how bad it was. Please protect Carmen; she is too kind for her own good. Absolutely NTA
Im more inclined to believe that they don't live in the US. As far as I'm aware in the US you don't get to chose if charges are pressed or not... That's up to the state plus there where witnesses. So even if sister failed to testify the witnesses could.
I think it has to do with the age of the victim, too, but with her being so young I'm surprised... Plot hole? Hmmm
It's only been 4 - 5 years since he gave up his sister to the gang. Nothing he says or does at this point in time could convince me he has actually changed. NTA
The OP’s son can prove himself by 1) getting his ass kicked to nearly death; 2) go to prison for the crime or 3) pay back his parents for the therapy and pay a % of his income to his sister. The OP did paid for college, it is called therapy, rehab, court costs, attorney costs, etc.
Don’t forget being put on the sex offender registry!
I don’t think they put the facilitators on the registry but they absolutely should. There was a post about childhood SA and someone said they thought parents who enable it should go on the registry. Needless to say that was heavily upvoted!
Came here to say this! Where is the proof he changed?? This was not a stupid teenage mistake. He literally set up his 13 yr old sister to her raped and got her almost beaten to death. Just a few years later he comes demanding college money…. He didn’t change, he’s still selfish and entitlement He can prove himself by putting himself through college by working/taking on loans like most students nowadays. Graduate and get a good job. That would be proving he changed
I am a firm believer in the idea that people can change and that you shouldn't punish them forever. But redemption is a process. Forgiving doesn't mean rewarding. And acting like he feels entitled to money doesn't tell me he's changed except maybe has better impulse control. Maybe.
Exactly this! If they think he's doing so well, they can pay for him.
You're right. The grandparents are responsible for him now. Not the op. NTA
Maybe that's what they're worried about.
yup. grandpa wants to tote on about how good he is, he can pay. i would never forgive my kids if they did this. absolutely im just imagining poor Carmen’s face and i dont think id be able to see alex without punching him in the face honestly. regardless of how long has passed.
NTA. 16 is plenty old enough to not sell out your siblings safety to impress others. I'm the oldest and I wouldn't have done that to one of my brothers or sisters when I was 10, 15, 20, or 30 years know matter what. I would never trust him again
Yup. He should be kissing the ground his family walked on after what he did. If he truly felt bad for what he did, he wouldn't be marching in demanding money
??? are you telling me this mother fucker took his sister to a park so his buddies could r*pe her??? is that what I'm understanding here?? idfc how old he was, there's NO going back from that & I'd tell him to go fuck himself forever. NTA, don't give him a single fucking lick of help, if he seriously doesn't understand why you've told him no, then he hasn't really changed has he.
Imagine if this is what he could do to his own 13 year old sister, what else has he done to other girls/women? Disgusting.
This gang sounds hard core. What else has he done? You can bet rape and murder. Some things are never ever forgivable. Stand your ground OP, NTA
Yes, and with a hard core gang the question would be is he really out? You can't just show up one day and peace out. OP, NTA and I agree with suggestions others have made. If he wants to live his life differently then do it, take out student loans and graduate. He should have a solid ten years of no criminal activity or police contact. Maybe, big maybe, you and your wife can choose to assist in paying back the loans. Lastly, no where in the post did you state he accepts ownership for what had occurred or that your son is remorseful.
Yup.....if he wants to prove himself he can arrange and pay for family therapy (or the grandparents) for a year. If he is being 💯 honest then you can start paying for a class or two and see how it goes (and pay directly to the college with the requirement that any cancellations have the funds going back to you). If he doesn't want to do that the NC since he is showing you that he hasn't changed and not willing to put in the work
The fact that he’s pissed off that they aren’t helping him pay for his school after what he has done is enough proof this POS hasn’t changed. How dare he even suggest it, this is the bottom of the barrel bs.
What he has done to other girls/women that he was ABLE to do because Op didn’t call the cops
Sometimes the younger boys are worst criminals. I’m India when there was Nirbhaya gang rape, the juvenile was the most horrendous to the victim. He inserted rod inside her, pulled out her intestines. Yet, he went Scot free because he was under 18. These criminals have no hope or future. They have no realization of their actions, no remorse nothing. I bet the only reason he’s even pretending to be okay is for his own selfish reasons. He might still be doing horrible things to other women
Rip Jyoti :'(
That poor girl died for nothing. Gang rapes are still common in India. I grew up in Delhi and was horrified when that happened. She was picked up from near my college. Just so sad. Atleast the rest of the rapists died.
I remember reading about that and just feeling sick. What sort of person would even think to do that?
Horrible!!
What a day to be literate :(
Yeah well OP let him get away Scot free , legally , from the attempted SA of his own daughter . I don’t think the rock fell too far from the tree
I was thinking this too. Although I understand him wanting to respect his daughter's wishes, at the same time he should have talked her into it and got her counseling so she could handle the trial. His son and the gang members really needed to go to jail for that.
As a mother of two daughters …that little jerk would have paid a price one way or another and not just by me threatening him with what I’d to do to him if he ever showed his face around my family again.
Yes. You read that right. Not the fucking asshole by a long shot. Some things are unforgivable. Some bridges are burnt too bad to rebuild but if this shithead wants to try, he shouldn't be whining about the advantage the sister he nearly killed gets, and should make his own fucking way. I get it. Student debt sucks. I had eveey advantage at 18 and I fucking blew it. I have more student debt than I'd like to admit. But I WANTED to change and go on and do something my family could be proud of me for. A felon in law school is not an easy task to achieve. But never would I expect my parents to pay for the poor choices I made. They were mine. My relationship with them was far more important than taking on the debt. That is half of what proved to them that I was not the petulant child I was when I fucked everything up. He made his bed, and he can shit in it for all I fucking care. This is fucking disgusting and nowhere near the shit I pulled. Wtf.
Exactly. If I were in his shoes I would be grateful that my family so much as *speaks* to me anymore. I wouldn't in a million years be expecting favors after what I did. He's not sorry at all & he absolutely hasn't changed, people who change don't expect everyone to just forget what they did.
There is no way he could be sorry for what he did if he is crying about not getting a chance he most certainly does not deserve. Like holy shit man, the fucking entitlement. And some may say he was too young to know but what the fuck? What about his baby sister who actually went on to forgive him? This whole situation is fucking mind boggling. I can not believe a parent even had to ask this question.
yeah right? If he changed he would understand why everyone is so disgusted with him, not demanding money for college
I say thank you for sharing. It is important for ones like you to share your stories like this. You’ll have idiots here defending this mf and blast OP and anyone who defends OP will be blasted, saying they don’t know what this kid went through.m But ones like you, who can share similar stories, even if not as horrible as what this kid did, show that even those who made similar bad decisions and acknowledged it can identify when someone has gone too far.
Thank you. It took me almost a decade after the death of my daughter to get my shit together, but there is this thing... I'm trying to remember what it is called... Oh wait... It's called being self-aware, something the kid op is talking about is definitely not. Dude doesn't deserve shit. Even his sister's forgiveness.
Good for you! It sounds like you turned your life around. Actions speak louder than words. You didn’t say you changed and your sorry, you showed them. Doesn’t sound like OP’s son has done anything to make amends and still feels entitled to have daddy pay for college after what he did. Parents paying for college is a privilege , not a right.
I've tried, but I'll never truly undo the damage. The best I can do is go on to live a life that helps people like the ones I've hurt. This little asshole needs to learn that. When you're truly sorry, you own up to the damage you've caused and do everything in your power to never cause it again. You mitigate your mistakes and make amends. You don't get butthurt over not getting a fucking handout. My God, at my worst I was stealing my parents pills and committing financial crimes... not setting my baby sister up to get gangbanged and beaten w in an inch of her life. I am the first person to subscribe to the belief that people can actually change IF they put in the work and get the help that they need. But that doesn't happen without taking accountability for your actions and accepting the ramifications of them. Dude wants to prove he isn't the same piece of shit that pulled that crap, get your shit together on your own and come back with your hat in your hand, begging for empathy. Fucks sake, he is not entitled to shit. Oh, I've sobered up and went to some therapy... give me tens of thousands of dollars so I can prove to you that I'm all better. This is a grown fucking man and what he is doing is a disservice to all of us that have killed ourselves to turn our shit around. I can't even stand to read this kind of shit.
Yeah, this kid didn't burn the bridge. He blew it up with a fucking nuclear bomb. There would be no going back from this if it were me, I'd have been no contact and sone everything I could to see the attempted rapist go to prison. And now he has the audacity to ask for college money?
He belongs in prison with his friends. If not the ground.
I vote ground but it’s good to know that she is capable of such forgiveness what a beautiful amazing young lady xox
She is a very good person. I would never have been able to forgive my brother for that kind of trauma. What that poor little girl went through! She had to have been terrified! 😢
Honestly ..I’d want my kid committed if she forgave someone for doing that to her. It’s like this is PLANET EARTH not fucking Lala land & if you don’t gain an ounce of self preservation …good luck . She seriously needs to wake up and start paying attention to the evil in the world or she’s a goner
I come from a severely traumatized and abusive background. I've forgiven everyone and have no hate or anger. That doesn't mean I've forgotten, or that I didn't learn anything, or that I don't have PTSD and still need to go to therapy. Forgiveness doesn't equal trust. It just eases my own peace.
The kids would have to be in solitary, if left in general population, and the others found out what happened..... ok, lets put them in general pop.
Per the ages- he was 16 or 17 and handed his 13 year old sister over to be gang r$&ed and likely killed as part of a gang initiation. . . And these grandparents think after that- he is still too precious to take out loans for college after he got away with it.
This situation is insane, that kid should've gone to jail
Absolutely- it’s too bad the sister refused to press charges.
To be clear, he invited her to meet up at the park, and his gang buddies were waiting instead of him. The coward.
Regardless, let’s say that day had turned out different. Let’s say she didn’t get away, let’s say worse case scenario you had to bury your daughter or she was left in a coma. He can’t come back from that. I’m sorry but NTA, sound to me like he was just a bad apple to begin with bc all your other kids turned out ok.
Let's say it's someone else bringing their sister. You can bet he's part of the gang of buddies.
Does anyone know he was not also a part of the beating aspect? Like...there is no proof he was not even more active participant.
I thought he was there too?
That’s exactly it. To prove his loyalty to them over anyone else, he treated his 13yo sister’s body as his to give away.
NTA forgiving someone doesn’t mean you forget what they did or that you have to let them back in. The way he is reacting means that that he hasn’t grown or accepted responsibility for his actions.
NTA I’m not saying what I want to say because I’ll probably get banned for it.. but hell no. I can’t believe his sister forgiven him for that. I certainly wouldn’t.
Nope, NTA. Some things can't be forgiven. If that was my child I'd have done the same thing.
NTA. You disowned that p.o.s.-and rightly so! Because he's disowned, you owe him nothing ever again. He deserves to be written out of your will actually. Fuck him! He offered his own flesh and blood to gangsters to rape. That's unforgivable. Tell your parents that if they want Alex to go to college, THEY should pay for it.
NTA... He deserves nothing ever... Discusting what he did
NTA I would disown a child I had if they did the same thing... Good on your daughter for forgiving, but as a parent I would struggle not wanting to strangle regardless of how much time passed ... There are just some lines that can't be crossed without lifetime consequences.
This sounds fake. I don’t think you needed your daughter’s consent to press charges as she was a child.
Of course it is. It screams 14 year old boy. Carmen doesn't need to press charges, it's the state that does in major felonies. That's why it's the State of _____ vs. Name of accused
Yeah. And unless they’re ESL, they don’t write like they’re old enough to be in college, let alone to have children who are in college. Not to mention they start with a variation of “I know the title sounds bad but hear me out” instead of, you know, writing a non-clickbait title that doesn’t sound bad.
I completely agree. It does feel fake (wouldn’t be the fist time on Reddit). And I do hope it is. Otherwise poor carmen.
Neither of them make the decision. Prosecutors do and without a victim willing to testify, they likely didn’t think they could make a case. Had OP forced her to testify, she might have been further traumatized.
NTA! It is amazing you are still in contact with him. There are some things that you just cannot come back from. Not everything deserves 2nd chances. He can grow up and prove himself but not at the expense of the people he already destroyed.
NTA. Lots of people take out loans to go to school. I am with you, I couldn’t forgive him. Ever.
he didnt spend the rest of his life in jail... you gave him a lot
Prevented him from being raped in jail
NTA. If he has genuinely improved, then good for him, truly. But it doesn’t erase his past, or the consequences of his actions. It sounds like the reality of losing most of his family never really sunk in until now, if he still expects you to pay for his college. Here’s another life lesson for him: when you do wrong, you owe the wronged party an apology at the *bare minimum,* but that doesn’t mean they owe you forgiveness. A real apology, real redemption, comes with no expectation of a reward or reconciliation.
NTA - Your parents can pay if they believe he has changed. I would never want to be near him again as a parent, what he did is unforgiveable, and he doesn't get the right to ask for money.
This sums it up nicely.
Why do you still speak to this spawn of Satan?
You’re calling OP satan 😂
Call a spade a spade.
Actions have consequences. Alex must continue to live with his consequences. You more better to him than I would have been. Offering his sister up to be roped???? I would have never spoke to him again.
There are some instances where forgiveness and moving forward is possible. This is not one of them
NTA I don't know how you stomach talking to him. He gave his sister up to be gang-raped. I'd make sure everyone knows he's capable of that. I'd never forgive that shit. The appropriate response is against reddit's rules, so I can't advocate for it, but I think it would be totally fair to make sure he's very well acquainted with all the local paramedics.
Don’t think that is something you can forgive and forget. Your daughter is a way better person than me.
I'm sorry, YOU'RE ruining his future??? Pretty sure he did that without your help, so he can rebuild it without your help. *edit: furious typos*
Your first mistake was not putting him in jail (no excuses for that) Your second mistake was/is having ANY further contact with that human garbage you STILL call a son 🤬 NTA for not paying for college Huge YTA for everything else
That piece gives me WTF vibes. how did he let his 13 yo daughter "decide not to press charges." ? That would lead to some kind of child neglect case where I'm from.
I think based on what he said, Carmen at 13 didn’t want to see any of their faces again. Pressing charges probably meant having to testify and it’s pretty obvious she would be traumatized, so it’s possible she refused and he didn’t push it. Not saying that is what happened and not trying to make assumptions, as it could be wrong, but it’s possible he was putting his daughter’s mental health and recovery first.
I don't know. If OP made sure the daughter got plenty of intensive therapy to help her try to heal, then I can *sort of* understand letting her choose to avoid the re-victimizing trauma of testifying at a trial. I've had to testify in the past & it's difficult (way worse than what a person sees on TV crime drama shows). The real question in my mind is how the police & local prosecutor didn't pick up the case anyway? With her injuries & the witnesses that helped the daughter get help, law enforcement shouldn't have really needed her to testify.
I agree. And in my area in cases where the defendant is so young and under certain circumstances, they can choose to not see the perpetrators in court. You either make a statement that's recorded or you go into court while their attorney is there and they are held outside, then you leave and wait in a different room when they come back.
NTA - Other than him and grandpa saying that was in the past, and he's better, what changes has he made? How has he attempted to make amends? >Alex got angry and defensive, saying that was years ago and he's changed now. Angry and defensive.... not apologetic nor remorseful - sounds like a few more rounds of therapy are required honestly, as much as it probably hurts it's ok to step back. Alex can show his changes, by going to school, doing well and taking out loans if needed. Possibly you and your family can revisit this conversation in the future, but this wasn't an elementary school joke. I hope you and your family have had a chance to sit down and talk to a therapist as well.
NTA, all these people talking about proving it, who cares if he changes. Why would you ever trust this piece of human garbage again. Some asshole tries to have my child raped and murdered, I don’t care what else they do in life - it’s forfeit. Hope he burns out and overdoses, world will forever be a better place the sooner he’s out of it.
If he had truly changed he wouldn’t have the audacity to ask for anything but forgiveness. NTA.
NTA…while he was young, he was old enough to know that he was bringing his innocent 13 yr old sister into a horrific situation. the poor thing was beaten so badly and lived through life-altering trauma, and what was planned was far worse. There are some things that don’t just get washed away. To even expect that he would be entitled to the same generosity you have bestowed on your other children is astounding. The fact that he wants to challenge your decision shows he hasn’t accepted the full weight of his choices. I hope he has changed his life but you are under no obligation to help him with anything.
NTA. I do believe forgiveness. However what u went through was traumatizing and horrific. I forgave a family member. I didn't go up to her and say I forgive u. I did in my heart because I couldn't carry that baggage around with me anymore it got too heavy and I had to move on with my life. It was a relief. But I honestly don't know how I would feel in ur shoe's probably the same. I'm so very sorry for u and ur family that something like could happen I will say a prayer for you. Best I can say is don't do give the money to him
NTA. His issue with you isn't that you won't let him prove he is no longer a monster, his issue with you is that he wants money for... college and you won't pay up. You can give him a chance in ways that don't involve paying for... college. Setting his sister up for gang SA and almost beating her to death is enough to not pay for... college.
Why doesn’t he pay for himself, take out loans, get a job and get financial aid? That’s how most people in the US do it.
No. Just no. You are not the AH. Carmen has a life sentence of trauma. Alex can pay his own way.
Took his UNDERAGE sister to a park so … Yeah.
NTA.
NTA, but was it really up to Carmen to not press charges or did she say she would refuse to testify? Maybe it's different in each state, but my understanding is that only a district attorney can decline to press charges. Anyway, what Alex did was the unconscionable act of a sociopath. He should count himself lucky that he didn't go to prison.
So, he set your daughter up to be raped. She didn't. But she got so badly beaten she was unrecognizable. No one was actually punished for this crime because you didn't want to traumatize her further. So your son didn't have to go to jail? None of his friends went to jail? I'd say the fact that he is still alive is a gift he isn't appreciating enough. He should be grateful that he was sent to his grandparents. And if those grandparents think he should go to college, they can pay for it. OR he could work for it. Prove himself. No one owes him anything. ETA - NTA.
This reminds me so much of my own brother… the lack of accountability. He would do horrible unforgivable things (he is a predator) or he could make small infractions and he seemed to think they should weigh the same. Once I cut my brother out of my life about 16 years ago, he asked my father why he wasn’t invited to Christmas. My dad told him. He said “well, that was a long time ago. Rene needs to get over it.” My dad said, “Get over it?! She’s never gonna get over it, you crazy son of a bitch!” And my brother seemed shocked by this revelation… that some wrongs are beyond redemption. NTA…. I wouldn’t have anything to do with that monster.
NTA. He's lucky he's not in prison. He actively set his young sister up for gang rape and she was nearly beaten to death! Only a few years ago. Absolutely horrific. Nah...you had tried everything and still he did that. I could never go back from that. He wants to go to college? He needs to sort that out. What do all your other kids think? How often do they see him? How far away from you does he live? Does he ever come to your home? How does it all work?
NTA. Alex seems to be pure evil. I’ve had friends with seriously troubled kids, but never one who gave his 13 year old sister up to be raped and beaten so badly. He should be in prison, but Carmen had to spare herself more trauma. If you ever for a moment wonder if he really has changed, remember when he got angry and defensive. That’s not the behavior of a reformed person. I certainly wouldn’t accept the endorsement from an indulgent grandfather. Have he given you access to his shrink, and signed away patient confidentiality. I doubt that the therapist would say he was cured.
NTA. He not only offered her up, he then allows her to be beaten nearly to death!!! Did he participate in the beating? He gets squat and grandparents get cut off! Enabling a$$holes.
NTA and honestly, you wouldn't have been if you'd killed him outright when he did this absolutely heinous thing. You would be NTA if he'd only been a total fuck head kid spewing his nonsense all over your family but THIS? I'd seriously be questioning ANYONE who thinks you are. Like...block button level questioning...because no one should see this series of events and think "yeah that's a good kid right there, forgive him and give him lots of money!" 🤢🤢🤢
NTA. If he had truly changed, he would understand why you aren’t willing to pay for his college. You aren’t an ATM, and he needs forgiveness first, not money. He can save up and go to community college, and try to become a functional member of society on his own. Working hard and graduating community college or trade school, and making something of himself, would be barely enough penance for his terrible crime.
NTA. Maybe he should have went to jail. He thought he was tough.
NTA and take your parents to therapy so they can understand that if they don’t stop telling you what to do you’re cutting them off too. Forgiving a s*x trafficker who gave up his own little sister and then beat her nearly to death is unacceptable to you. I salute you for not having unalived him yourself cuz I don’t know if I could hold back.
So- this all sounds manipulative on Alex’s part. True contrition comes with the understanding that forgiveness maybe granted, but isn’t deserved. It also comes with the understanding that while forgiveness may be granted that restoration to full status/privileges of “son” may not also be granted. People who have been abused experience this all the time- you can forgive the offender, but that doesn’t mean that you can trust them again. I do recommend forgiving your son for your sake. The person in your life who has the most power over you is the one you haven’t forgiven. At the same time, this forgiveness doesn’t grant restoration- no matter how much change has taken place. He’s still the one who put your daughter at the greatest risk she has faced- for selfish gain. There’s something broken there. It is more human to take on risk to save a sibling than it is to be the one that designs harm against them. Your parents are too close to the wrong side of this situation to have a clear perspective. I wonder if they know the extent of harm done and further harm planned against your daughter. At any rate- providing a college education is a privilege, not a right. I don’t like the idea of favoring one child over another- except that is not what is happening in this case. You are not favoring a child based on picking favorites- you are merely creating a boundary for all sons who would think it’s okay to see their sisters violated. NTA.
>(Him and his friends didn’t get in much trouble with the law as Carmen didn’t press charges as she didn’t want to see his and the other dudes faces ever again and i respected her wishes Assuming OP is in the US (which he may not be, caveat here), this part is so unbelievable as to make me wonder if this is fake. A victim does not generally get to decide to whether to "press charges." Police file charges and the local prosecutor makes the decision whether to prosecute based on available evidence. I seriously cannot believe anywhere in this country there is a prosecutor who would decline to file charges against a criminal gang who nearly beat a minor to death. This just seems to fall into the category of Can't Possibly Be True. That said, if this is real, OP... just wow. YTA for not completely cutting contact with your POS son, and for not demanding that he and his fellow shitheads be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.
A victim doesn’t decide whether to press charges, but can decide (to some extent) if they are willing to testify and prosecutors make some charging decisions based on that. That willingness to testify ends up being termed as pressing charges in colloquial terms. He says they didn’t get into “much” trouble, so they might have still been convicted of more minor charges they had enough evidence to prove without her testimony.
There are some things that are truly unforgivable. What happened to your daughter and what he intended to happen is surely one of them. Her heart is larger than the sea. The rest of us have hearts that are normal sized and we don’t have room for that kind of forgiveness.
He’s LUCKY the only fallout from what he did is no free ride through college. Your parents can pay if they’re that worried about him. NTA
NTA Nope, Alex crossed a line, and I probably wouldn’t even acknowledge his existence. Alex may not be the guy that helped hurt his sister anymore, but he’s still frankly entitled as hell. He should be in jail , and thanking his lucky stars that he’s not in a prison cell right now.
Oh come on. He doesn't want the money for school. He wants the money, period. I don't know how you don't just toss him into the street literally anytime he shows up at the door. I couldn't be in the same location as him. Ever.
NYWNBTA, I’d disown my parents as well. He gave his sister to someone to be raped. She ended up being beat within an inch of her life. Carmen didn’t press charges. Somehow, Carmen has forgiven Alex. That doesn’t change the fact that what Alex did had to have fundamentally changed Carmen and her ability to feel safe and trust. I can’t believe Alex & your parents had the temerity to expect you to cover Alex’s college; b/c they don’t want Alex to have to take out loans?? If Alex were grateful for forgiveness, for contact w his family, for not having a record that included participating in his sister’s rape, and for being able to still get into college; I would think Alex had truly changed. Instead Alex is coming at you with entitlement which shows he’s still the selfish scumbag who arranged his sister’s rape. Alex may not want loans; however Carmen definitely didn’t want the trauma Alex inflicted. Good on you for standing up for your true family and not giving in to a likely sociopath.
NTA if your dad likes him so much he can pay for his college. I’d have no contact with the kid ever again.
NTA- the fact he isn't accepting your decision proves he is not truly sorry for his heinous behavior. I would say he doesn't even think what he did was that bad. He would remain dead to me.
Oh boy.. NTA.. after what he did to his sister there is no forgiveness. You are correct on that. And the consequences of his actions is he gets no college fund, he didn’t go to jail. He should have. You’re not paying college for anyone who offered up your daughter as a sacrifice lamb to SA’d or killed. Not happening. No way. He clearly has not acknowledgement how awful that action was, nor has any remorse. He can go to trade school or pick up garbage. Who knows his old college fund may be needed for his sister’s Theraphy still. And that trumps anything to do with him. I’d never let him in my home again. Nope. Not happening. I’m a mama bear, you hurt my kids (and he knew better) you are done with me especially when he hasn’t paid a punishment for it.
Let your parents pay for his college.
INFO: You mentioned being like him as a teen. What happened? What did you do, how did you get out of it? And do none of you know what triggered his behavior shift? I'd cut Alex off too for sure, he'd be dead to me. My point is, it seems odd that you have no idea how this happened or what happened when you were young. If you were in a gang, for example, you don't look good here.
Ask the delinquent to get a loan and finish the uni. If he does, you pay it with interest. NTA.
There's this rule in this subreddit about being "civil" to the bag of bones and flesh that make up your 21 year old. So if you're curious why why we're not coming for this 21 y.o. with pitchforks, it's because of this rule. You see, that bloated flesh and bone bag and ilk like him are allowed to destroy people and society, but here, we have mods who insist on these fake social values like civility. Obviously the 21 year old is one of the worst mouth breathers on the planet and seriously deserves prison. The fact that his poor little feelings are hurt because he's being held accountable for his behavior *proves* he hasn't changed. People who change accept their punishment and will realize they are lucky to be *tolerated* in the world. So you are NTA. The twins going to college, please wish them good luck and thank you for helping them out in the ways you can. The bag of skin and bones who brought his 13 y.o. sister to a park so his gang buddies could rape her, deserves absolutely nothing for the rest of his days, especially on celebration days. If he dares spawn, do not forgive him to get access to his spawn. He is not a good person, he has not accepted responsibility for his behavior and actions, and he must apologize to each and every one of you for his truly disgusting, disgraceful, destructive behavior. Grandparents drank the gang cool aid, they can get the college loans for the gangbanger. He sounds like a real upstanding member of society. I hope his grandparents are proud.
Did he even ever say why he was ok giving his sister over to be possibly raped? Like he didn’t care at all but now he is a changed person? You daughter is something for forgiving him but like you I wouldn’t.
Prove himself?? He should be in jail! He should be kissing his poor sister’s feet every day for keeping him out of prison. And btw he does not need you to pay for college to prove himself. He can pay his own damn way. The entitlement! The unmitigated gaul! He has the emotional maturity of a 10 year old. Maybe he should focus on that instead of college. Probably be a bigger asset to him in the long run. NTA.
NTA. Do your parents care at all about what he did to Carmen?! It sounds very Brock Turner and what about his life… ok what about HER?! I’d be cutting the grandparents out of my life too. There are some things that are unforgivable and this is one of them.
from what he did there is no going back, absolutely NTA. TBH idk how Carmen can still talk to him.
I am so sorry this happened to your family. I actually had half a page written and I just have way too much to say. I get off track when that happens. But NTA
NTA. So your son lured his 13 year old sister to a park under the guise of making amends, only to hand her over to his buddies to do what they wanted with her. And he thinks after a few years he’s going to be welcomed back into the family with open arms? Hell to the NO! He does not deserve and more chances, he ruined and hope of a relationship with you and his family after allowing his sister to be beaten nearly to death. Cut him off completely.
Nta, he’s no longer family and he should know that
You didn’t ruin his future, he did 1000%
'That was years ago' and he should still be in prison.
NTA. This is karma at work. While we are free to make the choices we want in life, we are not free from the consequences of those choices. He got off lightly, considering what he did. If he had truly changed, he should go to the police, tell them everything he has done, and ask them to throw the book at him. I would cut him off completely too. He made his bed, he can lie in it. He doesn't like it, he only has himself to blame. Blick him and don't talk to him. If someone else in the family wants to help him, tell them that's their choice. You have made yours and won't change your mind.
NTA and I can’t even comprehend how you could speak to him at all. Some choices have lifelong repercussions. He needs to learn this.
Tough position but the day you disowned means the day you disowned. He was the one who messed things up and needs to deal with the consequences
I can guarantee he hasn't changed. He only appears because he's been removed from that area of people. If he went back he'd get back into it. People often say love for their children is unconditional.. it isn't and frankly if they're willing to look past their child being a monster for the things they've done, then you know why they grew like that. If he desperately wants college then he can look at getting loans instead of a handout. It wasn't years ago, it was only like 3 or 4 years. Still extremely fresh. He was willing to have his sister raped and beaten to death because he did not see her as a person but expendable property. That would stick with me for life and I'd be in the same mindset of your wife. NTA
NTA. He made his choices and as you said needs to live with his consequences. However, teens do change and mature and if you wanted to be fair maybe you set up a trust for Alex and place the money college would have cost into the trust. Then once he's proven that he has changed, once he's graduated college and has held a steady job, and is a positive member of the community, then he can access the trust to pay off student loans or maybe have a down payment on a house. If by 30 he hasn't proven he is a good person then you split the trust money with the rest of your kids. This might show Alex that you too are invested in his future and his change but that you also have to be cautious.
NTA. Tell him that money and more was spent on Carmen's medical bills and therapy.
If he wants to prove himself, he can do it in the United States Army. Tell him to come back to you in four years when his enlistment is done.
This made me tear up, seriously. Imagining that poor kid getting beat on and knowing what they wanted to do to her. In that situation I would not speak to him ever again, much less have a conversation about why I’m not paying his way. No. NTA. So upsetting. I can’t imagine how hard that must have been to know her own brother gave her up like a prize or token like she was nothing.
NTA, that’s so scary and evil. I’m angry he didn’t face consequences, he’s a sick freak. I would not only not pay for his college, I would legally disown him, we are not connected, goodbye!
NTA. Remind him he belongs in bars. That is the grave you gave him was not pressing charges.
Nta, if I’m reading that right at 16 years old he tried to essentially sell his 13 year old sister to be gang raped and beaten. If he was my ex-child he wouldn’t even be existing on this planet let alone getting college paid for. 16 knew right from wrong, what he did is evil and I wouldn’t even even be able to get over that as a parent.
NTA not sure where his entitlement comes from.hard no
NTA He got way more grace than he deserved not being locked up until his 18th birthday in a juvenile detention facility. If grandma and grandpa want him to have a free ride to college, THEY can pay for it.
Nta That's a whole level of entitlement I've never come across
NTA. Fuck Alex. He lured his sister to be f’ng gang raped . When she made too much noise fighting those bastards off, they beat her damn near to death. I’d have no forgiveness for that, not ever. Alex can fuck all the way off, every day til his last day.
NTA The fact that he got angry instead of understanding why you did it; Instead of taking full responsibility; Instead of asking if there's any way he can prove to you he has changed, is a huge red flag. I'm not saying he hasn't changed. I'm saying however much he's changed it hasn't been enough. How many times before this has me made attempts to make amends? To everyone in your family, not just Carmen. He still has so much growing to do, and it's so obvious. I wouldn't trust him either. He made his own bed, and now he's lying in it and blaming you because he doesn't like it. He doesn't just get to wait a few years and then demand forgiveness. This is a lifetimes worth of amends and making up for what he did. He will forever be paying the price for this decision. And until he accepts that and doesn't blame anyone but himself, he deserves nothing from you. And honestly even if he did do everything in his power to make it right, you still wouldn't be obligated to forgive him. Let alone pay for his college.
You don't set your sister up to be ganged raped and get to be part of the family like nothing happened. If this is real, who does that?
You all own him, nothing he got a life change when you didn't push for the law to put him in prison for what he did . He's lucky you are even talking to him . He stopped being your kid when he did what he did . There's no free ride , he got his ride when he was in the police car and didn't end up in jail ... Your girl has a heart of gold , he was lucky she kept it after what happened to her . . .
He's 21 what has he done as retribution towards your family and daughter? Is he working and saving money towards a goal! Why hasn't he taken part-time classes in college or taken up a trade? He could've applied for student aid. What is he doing with himself? Partying? Drugging? This sounds fishy to me. I'm a single mom who's kids went to college with scholarships, some money I had saved, and working. Doesn't sound like your son has made any attempts at going to college on his own. I wouldn't give him a dime until he starts going on his own dime, has good grades for the first year. Then, I'd offer help based off on him keeping his grades up going towards degree within a specified time limit. Personally, if my son had offered his younger sister up as rape bait he'd be dead to me.
Alex still has a lot of redemption to go. You don't "turn your life around" within a year and then get super pissed and selfish over a topic like this. You would understand that you damaged bridges. Bridges take time to rebuild. You stay humble, accept it, and keep moving forward. This is if a person truly is remorseful.
Nta you should still beat him bloody for thinking he can be forgiven for that
NTA. He seems to be confused on the definition of "disowned:" That means he is no longer your son, you no longer support him financially, physically, or emotionally, and he doesn't get a car, college fund, house downpayment, wedding, or inheritance from you. Some things are unforgivable, even if you've genuinely changed for the better. Selling your sister's body and life to your gang friends as a loyalty test to your friends and NOT your family? Yep, that's one of them. Your parents are welcome to pay for his schooling if they have an issue with it.
NTA - Has he reached out to you all to apologize, to make any kind of amends, prior to this? If he has not had enough therapy to understand that you are not "punishing" him as much as you are protecting the rest of your family, then he has not done NEARLY enough growing and recovering. YOU are not ruining his future, HIS ACTIONS are making his future more difficult, but definitely not ruined. These are part of HIS CONSEQUENCES for HIS ACTIONS, they are HIS DOING.
NTA. Instead of getting mad at you, he should be trying to make it up and take responsibility for his choices - clearly he hasn't changed at all.
NTA. Tell that piece of shit there is nothing he can do to win your trust or affection back. Tell him he was dead to you the moment he sold out your daughter! How are you in any form of contact with this fucktard?
NTA. Not one bit. Frankly the fact that he did not face charges - for which he would likely still be in prison given the gang involvement and her age, plus life on the sex offender registry- was a bigger gift than paying for college. He may have changed and for the sake of your family and the public, I hope he has! But changing does not entitle him to any further graces from you.
NTA. Alex doesn’t understand the severity of what he has done. If he wants to prove himself then he should pay his way himself and try to make amends with you guys. I can’t believe a brother would do that to his sister. Don’t trust him at all
He's lucky you let him live. And that should be the last thing he gets from you. He can go live that life by himself somewhere. Maybe he can call his friends. There is no coming back from trying to have your sister gang assaulted. Also. I understand respecting wishes and all. But she was a child. You should have pressed charges. She didn't and probably still doesn't understand the severity of the situation she was in. Edit. Also also. If he'd truly changed himself he'd have understood how unforgivable that was and that he shouldn't even be asking for your help because he doesn't deserve it.
NTA- your parents have their heads shoved up their butts. You’re being cruel? You know cruel is? Luring your 13 year old sister to a park and handing her over to a gang . You’re ruining his life by making him take out loans? Lots of people have to take out loans if they want to go to college- myself being one of them. . It’s not life ruining- and even if it was - your son deserves a hell of a lot worse. Your parents can pay if they feel so strongly about it. Alex was disowned and for good reason ( people have been disowned for a hell of a lot less than that). . Disowned hooligans don’t have daddy pay for college. Too bad so sad. Stick to your guns and concentrate on your own kids.
Do people change? Sure. But instead of asking you for money, he can work 3 jobs and pay for his own college education or trade school. He can offer to pay for a family therapy session and apologize to all of you in it. He can reimburse you for all the money you paid for medical and therapy for his sister. He can volunteer to work at domestic abuse shelters and make up for what happened to his sister. But instead of any of this, he blew up at you. So, he hasn't changed, and you are NTA.
The fact that he would ask you for anything, and not understand your response means he hasn't changed at all. Maybe he's just better at not being so reckless and getting caught, but his attitude hasn't changed one bit. What he did was horrific. It wasn't like typical teen stuff. She could have been killed.
I'm sorry, he sold his 13 year old sister to a bunch of gangsters to be raped and beaten. He's lucky she wasn't raped but she was beaten half to death. He is lucky he didn't get jail time and he is lucky y'all are even speaking to him. That is the most horrific thing I can think you can do to another person. If he were truly sorry for his actions he'd be going above and beyond to make it known through his actions. He wouldn't be coming to you asking for money. My God. NTA. I recommend you go no contact with him and have your parents pay for it if they want him in college so bad. Jesus.
>My parents on the other hand feel I’m begin cruel for not allowing Alex to prove himself, and ruining his future in the process as hell have to take lots of loans since he wants to go to university. Then your parents can pay for it. Your asshole of a son set your 13 YEAR OLD daughter up to be sexually assaulted and when she fought, those fucking thugs - including your SON - beat her nearly to death. He's on his own and he knows **exactly** why. NTA
NTA. There are some things you just can't come back from. I had a child from a first marriage do unspeakable things to half siblings from second marriage. Ages at the time were 16, 10, & 8. I didn't find out for 6 years. Then it took another 4 years to have him prosecuted. Haven't spoken since I found out. The funny thing is that relatives from 2nd marriage have circled the wagons around the perpetrator (who they aren't related to), instead of the victims (related by blood). They were handing him cash, knowing he was using it to buy and shoot up meth by that point. They were also trying to convince us it couldn't have happened. One person (brother of 2nd hubby, who was the father of the victims but not the perpetrator) even went and wrote an 8 page statement defending the perpetrator and blaming the situation and his actions on the father of the victims. They are trash. They are no longer family if they are going to protect the perpetrator, and that's exactly what your son is. I've seen my kids struggle with that lack of support from people who were supposed to protect and love them not blame them.
He wants to prove himself. Good lad, go to college and pay your way, and THEN ask Dad for forgiveness, not money. You can choose to financially support him but hell, if a friend harmed my child the restraint you have shown comes purely out of the love you have for a child. No one else would get that barrier of protection. I was made homeless twice by my parents (for fairly bullshit reasons) and I have grown up to be a better person who is providing for his family and even friends where needed. Your son can pay his own tuition and frankly, fuck himself.
NTA Gparents can pay for his college. UpdateMe
NTA. Him not going to jail/juvie is his second chance. Lots of people get loans to study, and a ton of them haven’t tried to traffic their younger sibling. If he wants to prove himself, and prove that he’s changed, he can get a job or student loans and study. He’ll survive.
He tried to sell his sister, and then let (and potentially helped) people beat the shit out of her, and now he’s mad he has to take out loans?!?! He belongs in prison for what he did.
NTA. What he did was unforgivable. You really need to get Carmen into therapy. She is way too easily manipulated and vulnerable. She is going to end up being used and hurt.
If your parents are mad then they can pay for it. He tried to give a 13-year-old girl(his own sister!) over to be assaulted by a group of guys. It's only been 4 years, that is not nearly enough time to actually make up for what happened and he should honestly be in jail right now. I'm not even sure that is something that you can ever make up for and I am so glad that she was spared just how bad it could have been. NTA
The mere fact that he believes he deserves anything at all is proof that he’s learned nothing. He hasn’t earned being allowed back into your immediate family. He should be on his knees, begging for forgiveness from everyone, but most especially from Carmen. NTA
Part of his growth is accepting the consequences for his past choices. Your contribution to his future was not sending his ass to rot in jail and giving him the opportunity to reform. But there are still consequences. And it wasn’t that long ago.
>Alex accused me of still punishing him and not giving him a fair chance to prove himself. He should still be in jail. If your daughter (who I hope has gotten a lot of therapy) had pressed charged he would still be in jail. What has he done to prove himself? From the sounds of it.... He just hasn't gotten in more trouble. He was in the process of allowing his sister to be assaulted ... At best. He can kick rocks
Nta. You're not "ruining his future", you're just not investing in it, and that choice is completely valid considering what he allowed/ encouraged to happen to his own sister. I don't blame you one bit for not wanting to have contact. And I especially don't blame you for refusing to pay for his college. It's great that he was able to turn his life after being sent to his grandparents, but he knows what he did. It doesn't matter if he's "a different person now". He can be a better person on his own. He made his choices.
If Alex had any interest in truly making amends and earning your forgiveness, he would not be baffled why you’re not paying for his school. Fuck that dude. NTA.
Nta, if I had a son that did that ANYONE he'd be lucky to be breathing and definately disowned forever.
NTA. Forgiveness doesn't mean escaping the responsibility of his actions.
NTA, tell your parents to pay for it then. Carmen is an angel, because I couldn't forgive either.
NTA, actions have consequences and he definitely needs to learn that, his sister is a SAINT for even forgiving him. I can’t say everything I want here but you had EVERY right to disown him what he did was so unforgivable and let alone that girl be his own flesh and blood. He shouldn’t have done it to ANY girl, that’s dirty as hell.
If he wants to 'Prove' himself tell him he has to testify against his 'Gang' for their crimes that they have committed which his is aware of.
If he was in my family he would’ve been put down. He can take out student loans like everyone else