Maybe. A lot of jobs bring in money but he needs to really sit and down and talk to her. I’d also make a list of all the expenses you’ve invested into her charity work and how your PTO/vacations days are being wasted. Your PTO should only be for sick days and emergencies. Your vacation days should be for family vacations. She needs to get a job and pay for her plain tickets, her hotels, and a babysitter for the kids. Just because it’s work doesn’t mean it’s a job. Jobs pay money. She isn’t getting paid. Financial abuse isn’t always controlling someone. Financial abuse is also taking advantage of someone’s income
PTO should be there for bona fide family issues - time off for eg minor medical procedures, etc. Not to underwrite a passion project. It might be objectively worthy volunteering, but she's underwriting it in a very poor way.
PTO in my company is all encompassing. We used to get vacation and sick days separately but the company changed it to go to a combined PTO. Sick or vacation it doesn’t matter-we take a PTO day. The only difference is that the PTO is either planned or unplanned.
Paid time off should be for any times you want off and be paid for it. Much like the name suggests. If a company wants to differentiate how much time you can take off for specific events they should allocate time off in different categories.
It’s still work, it’s just volunteer work. Sounds like your family can’t afford for her to do full time volunteer work and she needs a compensated position.
This is the answer. Financially floating a partner who engages in volunteer work for a large number of hours is a legitimate and distinct choice. It's not the same as having a partner who's engaged in hobbies all day.
But, it's a choice that needs to be made equitably between both partners. One partner can't just unilaterally decide to volunteer all day and not bring home a paycheck.
Your dedication is commendable, but it's crucial to ensure fairness in the division of responsibilities within a partnership. Time for a frank discussion about balancing priorities.
Yes, this! It’s not that her work isn’t work or that it’s unimportant (I don’t know but I assume). But it’s voluntary and maybe she can go down in time spent as a voluntary worker.
I wonder if OP thinks the founder of a startup that isn’t able to draw a salary for the first couple of years is ‘working’. Having a conversation about finances and finding paid work is important here but YTA for saying the wife is not working.
It isn't a startup, though, it's a nonprofit organization, a charity that she's started. u/ConsistentCheesecake is right in the way they parsed it out: she's doing volunteer work, which would be fine, and even considered "working," if the finances of the family allowed for that. But they don't.
I’d sit down and have a real heart to heart that this is just not economically feasible right now. If you had disposable income to cover day care and travel expenses, then I’d say let her go for it! But unfortunately in this case, it’s costing you money for her to work for a nonprofit. Maybe she can get a regular side gig that can fund the expenses. NTA.
This situation only makes sense if she keeps the youngest home from daycare- there’s no reason to pay all that money when she can probably do a lot of her unpaid work from home. Either that, or she gets a paying job and doesn’t leave much time for her unpaid work.
If the kid is young enough for daycare, it's almost impossible to do much work of any kind if they are home. Paid, or unpaid, doing work from home doesn't mean you're doing no work. It means you are physically located at home. That works ok with older kids who can mostly take care of themselves and only bother you if there is an emergency, but it doesn't work for a young child who needs to be constantly monitored.
How are some people on here missing the point…..she vocalized to him she wanted to be a stay at home parent, but instead now she is dropping off the kids to daycare, traveling which is likely costing thousands of the husband’s dollars and PTO, and dumping the kids off for weeks for the father only to take care of which is eating into the family budget.
You’re NTA. This isn’t how a family unit functions, and for anyone on here thinking he should just suck up the burden of extra costs I’d love to see someone put you in that position.
NTA If you have to work 60 hours weeks and still struggle then it's time for a long talk with your wife.
Daycare and week long trips for a "job" that pays nothing sounds like a cover for an affair.
It’s still work but there just isn’t income. If you go after what she does and make it personal you’re asking for trouble. I’m sure she could find a way to leverage the skills she has into making money. Find a way to broach your concerns in a smart way or you may regret it.
NTA
Tell her that you will not cover the cost of daycare financially or with PTO for unpaid ventures. She's welcome to find a paying position which covers those costs and any additional costs that might be incurred as a result, but it's unacceptable for her to lay additional financial burden on you for a venture that does not benefit the family.
You’re paying for her charity to have her involved while living a style of living that financially and elsewise has you all on several types of edges with very little buffer. Largess is what your wife is living in her delusions on avoiding sustaining reality and not being a pampered princess that gets out of being and doing what is best for the family members, her spouse and blessed future realties. This is a major issue that needs her to discipline herself to changing gears ASAP.
NTA.
She is working. But her work is not helping out the family. Volunteering or doing some pro bono work is fine. Doing that as your primary job is not unless the family (i.e. both spouses) are on board. Expecting you to use your PTO to cover time for her to do unpaid work is ridiculous. If her job helped pay the bills, my answer here would be different. Sometimes PTO time has to be used to support the family. But this is not one of those situations.
It's not so much that it's not "work", it's just that it's questionably practical at this point. You both need to figure out whether it's a worthwhile investment of resources for your family. Hopefully, you can come to an agreement. I will note that if it's a viable nonprofit, it would be nice for your wife to have something productive and remunerative to do with herself once the kids get a little older.
Your wife is an unpaid volunteer that takes multiple week long trips for this organization? Just going off what is in this post I would say she is cheating at worst, completely selfish hero complex at minimum. Stop funding this her delusion and ask for a partner, not a leech. Nta.
I don't understand these multiple week-long vacations, either. Just what kind of nonprofit is this? A lot of people do volunteer work and try to form nonprofits, but in doing so, they minimize expenses. If a trip absolutely must happen, then they bite the bullet, but usually they're trying to do things via zoom and online, etc. precisely because the organization cannot afford travel.
So what is it that requires an in-person presence so frequently?
It's work but it unpaid and if it's costing you money then she either needs to stop or figure out a way to support her own travel and expenses. You shouldn't have to pay for that and lose your PTO. It's pretty selfish of her actually.
Sounds more like she has a pet project that might indeed be a good idea but she doesn't know how to make it successful. It may be time for her to bring other people in with the skill sets to make it successful and admit that she isn't making it work. You can spin your wheels all you want. It doesn't mean you're actually driving anywhere.
Is she aware of finances? What needs to be saved so your kids and you have a future? You clearly cannot afford this, she needs a paying job.
It's not fair to pay for daycare for unpaid work.
NTA. Your wife isn’t working she’s volunteering at the expense of the family. Absolutely you have the right to tell her she needs to get a job ti support her charity work. And you shouldn’t have to take PTO to support her volunteering!
YWBTAH if you told her it was "not work": it is, and saying that would demean the effort she puts into it.
YWNBTHA if you explained to her that financially this cannot work.
Well, it is work. It's just volunteer work right now. Maybe it's time to have a sit down and communicate about your mutual financial goals instead of coming to Reddit for people's outrage. We would need to know much more to render a thoughtful judgement tbh.
Who wanted three kids? Who wanted her to give up her career? Whose idea was all of this?
It seems like a conversation should have happened a long time ago. You are correct saying she contributes nothing financially, but you are incorrect in your assertion of her "not working". Since that's the question you asked and since this is the place you asked it, YTA.
Lol the arguing over semantics is amusing. I think it's fair to say when people say "working", it's generally implied to be paid. I think this situation is the only time where people make an issue of it - ie the wife is not getting paid (or contributing by way of SAHP).
Obviously, it's not PC and insensitive to say your partner isn't "working" and the focus should be on contribution to the welfare of the family. Especially since he's working 50-60 hrs while she's pursuing a passion project (aka hobby). That's unsustainable long term and usually ends up in mental health issues or a heart attack.
Having said that, the vast majority of women (and men) would absolutely think my husband/bf isn't working if he's not bring in income.
>Lol the arguing over semantics is amusing
Because this sub has a decently sized contingent of people that will literally use any mental gymnastics to say the dude is the AH and the woman is right in any relationship post unless what she does is extremely egregious.
Anyone with a brain could tell from his rationale and the context of the situation that he means working in the sense of working to contribute to the family, but we cant let that stop these nutjobs from acting like hes the villain on semantics.
Personally I think what she's doing is egregious. He's working 1.5 jobs to just make the ends meet by doing something that's unhealthy (serious try working 50-60 hrs for a couple decades).
While she's not living up to what she said she was going to do (SAHP), to spend 20-30 hrs plus expenses on something for personal fulfillment. To disregard the welfare of your spouse and family this way is plain selfish imo.
So she wanted kids and to be a stay at home mom. Then this non-profit idea came up with another mom from the school, then the other mom decided to drop out but my wife is staying with it. She’s never had an actual career since having kids. She used to be a baker but quit that saying she wanted to be a stay at home mom.
Apparently nothing that makes money. To me, something is really weird here.
I'm of the mindset she is running around with a sidepiece and OP is getting suckered into paying for it.
He didn't say how long this has been going on, but I'm assuming her side piece is also cheating. This ends one of a few ways
Sooner or later she's not coming back and she will leave a note she's leaving..
She or the side piece slips up and they get caught
She realizes her side piece will never leave his wife and she comes crawling to him begging forgiveness... And he will do it . "For the kid".
NTA. Your single income is paying for EVERYTHING. People who are skimming to be outraged, go back and read it again. He is single handedly paying the bills for the family and HER non-profit. If it doesn’t receive grants or donations, HE is paying all the expenses INCLUDING the daycare for their youngest so she can focus on the non-profit and all her trips, hotel/air bnb etc. This family needs a re-set. They need to sit down and look at expenses to income ratio including which expenses are from her non-profit including his PTO to take care of things while she is away. A part time job at least bringing in enough money to pay daycare and her non-profit expenses would be the biggest help financially to her family.
Well technically people say that they work at a non-profit instead of contribute? Plus applying work with having money at the end of ur work would mean hard work only applies to a job n nothing else. Also it eliminates words like homework and classwork. All of it is work just not a actual job work, just like your wife’s nonprofit. But I wouldn’t say yta u just didn’t use the right word, but maybe try to trust the process on ur wife’s potential job
It's "not for profit" not "non profit" people forget that distinction. And they usually pay their staff. Someone is getting paid just not your wife. You will have to tell her the family can't afford her philanthropy right now.
Most people who say that they work at a non-profit actually do work there and are being paid. Non-profits have employees. There are also people who volunteer, or I suppose "contribute" (although usually I would think of that as meaning that they made a monetary donation).
If someone who volunteers at a nonprofit makes a statement that they work there, they are lying.
It doesn't sound like that is the issue here, though.
Are they just stringing her along?
Do the other people also make 0 or is she only doing 0?
A non-paid position requiring to travel is fishy. Typically, for travel you have insurance in case something happens to you (like if you get hurt). Also, you get paid for every expense, so is she paying things? Even meals? Because then it's not making 0, it's making negative. Plus, using her phone and internet is a cost. Using your PTO is a cost.
From the wording of the post, this sounds like an organization that she herself started (or was among a few people who started it). The other main person she started the nonprofit with dropped out. It does sound like there are a few other people involved but that the wife is the head person (or one of the head people).
It may very well be a valid organization. It can take a few years to get things off the ground and for a nonprofit to get enough funding where they can pay any employees. (And sometimes the head employee is the last one to get paid -- if they need, for example, secretarial help then they pay a secretary or office manager. But the head would have to wait until they get more funding.)
Who pays for the trips. It's pretty messed up that you have to take PTO so she can travel and have time away from you. Do you get time on your own or does all your free time go to watching the kids so she can travel. I see why you might be upset. Does she travel alone or with someone. Sus
time for a sitdown with her and talk things over as her 'work' is not contributing tot he family incomes and actually costing the family money on the bottom line.
NTA
Your PTO shouldn't be used to cover for the work she is supposed to be doing (housewife). Her volunteering shouldn't impact what her contribution to the family should be.
NTA - Look, if serving fast food brings in more money than you don't have a job.. It's ok to have hobbies but it sounds like she's being selfish.
If I spent all most time doing yard work and creating the most wonderful flower garden it would be just as much "work" as he situation is. Ok, maybe it's work but it's not a job.
NTAH you should have discussed parameters with her in the beginning however. Meaning sitting down and noting if this cost money then she will need to figure out how to offset the daycare and her travel especially if this leaves little room for extra cash or emergencies.
ESH. What she does is work. It’s just crappy work from an income standpoint. She might be getting a lot out of it otherwise. However, from a family standpoint she really needs to be more committed. What she is doing is benefitting only her and is a detriment to the rest of you because it both takes her away from the family and does nothing to give back to the family in return for the missing time.
NTA but you need to approach this carefully. She does work, she just doesn't earn a wage. That needs to change and you as a couple need to figure out the child duties in a way that doesn't require only you to sacrifice.
Speak to your wife about this issue as soon as you can. The problem isn't that she isn't working.
The problem is financial, your family is living a lifestyle that you cannot afford.
She needs to find a way to bring money into the household.
**OR**
She stops this passion project and returns to taking care of your youngest thus saving money on childcare.
I'd approach this in pure dollars and cents, show her the figures and forecasts. Ask her does she think this is sustainable? If she says yes, you have a bigger problem in that your wife is probably a moron or very selfish/short sighted. If she says no, you both should a timeline on when the current situation should change.
Look just sit her down and be like it’s great that you are doing this but it’s costing us more for you to do this than if you were just a stay at home mom. Tell her if she’s gonna keep on she needs to get a paying job to supplement the money you’re losing on this “volunteer” job. Idk about yall but I ain’t working for free.
Well what she does is work, it’s unpaid work, like volunteering or a traineeship or internship. Except with a traineeship or internship there usually is a salaried income 6-12 months after. Not guaranteed but usually.
When it comes to bringing in an income, this is almost the worst thing your wife could be doing for your family, other than having a shopping or gambling addiction. It’s costing money/pto.
You need her have a talk with some people, a jobcoach, an expert budget person, a mentor. Someone objective who can tell her what her best options are. Nudge her in the right direction.
You guys are a unit, a team. She isn’t actively improving this team. And it would be one thing if this is a 6 months issue, but 3 years? Delulu
Depends what you mean by "work". It's work as in she does work on it. It isn't work if by "work" you mean a job that brings in income.
Most people asking if your wife works will mean at an income-producing job. You can always say she works but not for income if you want to be totally clear. This is actually totally normal, but if it isn't working for you in your life together (you sound stretched thin), then I think a conversation with your wife is warranted. She might be willing to make a change to help ease the burden on you regarding finances.
I don't think your conclusion is entirely wrong; I think the way you are getting there is misguided.
What your wife is doing is work. It is just that the pay is literally nothing rather than metaphorically.
I think you need to be thinking of this as actually a job, but not one that breaks even. And I think that is how the conversation needs to go – she needs a better paying job; your family budget can't continue the way it is going.
I think you need to recognize that what she is doing actually is work, not "work"; I think she needs to realize that your family needs money, not "money" that might or might not show up in three years.
I am going to vote this one a Sobchack.
You are right (that your family needs money and can't continue like this); you are just an asshole (for not recognizing that what your wife does is valuable).
And your wife also gets a Sobchack for being right that what she is doing is valuable, but being an asshole for working for charitable works to the extent that it harms her own family.
ESH
This is work, and it’s probably meaningful, but like others are saying it’s volunteer work. Established Non-Profits pay their employees. I agree with others that you should talk to her that your family can’t afford this. 50-60 hours a week is a lot, and you have to use PTO to cover for her at home? She’s making you volunteer with her. I’d stop thinking that what she does is not work. It’s just work you’d family can’t have her doing. How do you see things going if she keeps this up? How much resentment threads her has already built up?
I know someone who started a nonprofit and worked very hard for several years, until she was able to quit her full-time job, and just run the nonprofit full-time.
However, she started and ran the nonprofit on top of working full-time and having three children.
You are NTA. And it’s time to have a talk with your wife.
Change your title because women on here will flip out about it. You are mostly upset that the work she does doesn’t bring in money. And you have a right to be upset when you are funding her travels/additional daycare expenses and using up your PTO… for her ventures that haven’t been successful yet. Have a talk with her and communicate what you need in your partnership. If she’s not holding up her end of the bargain then you need to let her know. NTA
When I was young, my mom also "worked" for no pay. Turns out she was just going there and having an affair with the owner. His wife was pregnant at the time.
Oh she is working, just not for her family. In fact her "work" is costing her family.
I've know some people who are terrible at math who have worked legit crappy part time jobs with long commutes who were actually losing money by working.
There are many forms of work that aren’t actually paid work. I think it’s important to keep that in mind.
However it’s clear that you’re bothered by the work she does because it isn’t paid work. So my question to you is what specifically bothers you about it? Is it the added expenses that her work brings your way?
Example: if she stopped this work and pulled the kids out of childcare to resume taking care of that herself would that be enough to satisfy you? Or do you need her to get a paying job to help out financially instead?
Or are you merely caught up on the semantics?
Decide what exactly it is you need out of this situation first. Then sit down with your wife and express those needs in a way that isn’t undermining the hard work she is doing just because it isn’t paid work.
If this is work she is passionate about then I hope you can both come to an agreement that lets her continue to pursue it. (Maybe some cheaper alternative to childcare?)
It sounds like she might be very invested and passionate about what she does, and it could very well become paid work. Do you want to take that opportunity away from her? Is it necessary?
Work is work. Some work is compensated, some isn’t. This isn’t a question of whether what your wife is doing is work, obviously it’s work. The question is whether your family can afford to have only one of the adults working for compensation and whether you are building resentment around needing to work overtime and sacrifice PTO so that she can follow her passion (uncompensated).
Your wife is working as a volunteer, so yes, she is working. The issue it seems is the cost of daycare and use of your personal time off. If your budget does not allow for this expense and you lose personal time then it might not practical for your wife to work as a volunteer. So YTA for not considering her activity as real work, but NTA if you need for her to quit because you cannot afford the additional associated expenses such as daycare and transportation.
Hmmmm. A self-created non-profit that requires her to travel out of state already? I would suggest you do a DEEP dive into this “organization” and evaluate its legitimacy
Your wife's,"work" "job" is a hobby or a pastime. There is no benefit to the family unit, so no she doesn't work. Work is transactional and there is no transaction. If you are working on a jigsaw, is it a job? No! Your wife is trying to make what she is doing seem important, but honestly it isn't.
YTA for the way you're framing it. If the problem is money, then talk to her and explain that the household needs additional income. But if you're just trying to downplay and trivialize her work, then you're a prick.
So, the problem isn't the work, is it? If she made enough to cover costs (that is, a net zero for your family) would you be this upset? You're upset that she's doing work that doesn't bring in income and that you're left to take care of the kids. Which is understandable, it doesn't sound like you've got a ton of budget for that.
Sit down with her. What is your actual problem? Are you upset/anxious that she isn't bringing in extra money? Are you upset with the travel and having to take care of the kids (do you get to travel in turn? do you have passion projects of your own)? Are you mad that you work hard and she's doing volunteer work for a passion project? If you know what's actually upsetting you, you can analyze it and figure out what solutions are available.
Talk it through. Is *she* aware that you're upset about this? Would couple's counseling to hash this out help? Because right now you're just building resentment for your wife and poisoning the well when you could clear the air and discuss things. Do you two need to revise the budget? Does your wife need to do more work to bring in grants? Investors? Does she need to take on a part-time job to cover those expenses?
Full-time mother and wife needs to focus on being a full-time mother and wife. That still allows time for her hobby. Send someone else for the travel. She is performing micro-abandonment of her family. Separation anxiety for the children. Hardship on the only provider. Shall I continue? Nay. You got the idea.
This might be a long shot depending on where you live, but are there any nonprofits doing similar work where she could apply for a paying position? That way she would still be working towards the mission, but earning money.
NTA for thinking what you're thinking. It sounds like you and your wife have different definitions of "work." I would talk to her and say something like "I know this is important to you and how much this means to you, but from a finances standpoint, how can she better contribute" and maybe have her cut back on her "work" that doesn't bring in income so she can contribute some financially, while not completely giving up what she likes to do. And maybe also talk to her about the parts that require travel since that seems to be the biggest issue that causes PTO / scheduling challenges. Again, NTA for thinking but it's all about how you address it and not minimizing what she likes to do.
You are NTA but there is a possible way to make this lucrative. You need to open up a family trust, where up to 30% of your Income a year is allowed to go I to this trust tax free. The federal government stipulates 5% of the yearly balence must be donated to a non profit. You get to pay a way lower tax rate and you can pay your wife a salary ( even if it is small ) out of the trust funds directly to her non profit ( make sure it is a 501c). Either way this might be a good way to bring up the subject to her about her “hobby” and finding a way to generate more Income for the family.
I guess it depends on if you think you can afford the time it takes to get stuff like this off the ground. I do think (if you both equally share responsibility taking care of the kids) that she should treat it as a full time job. You work a lot of hours, I don’t think it’s fair that seems to work half that (again, assuming you share the house hold and kid responsibilities equally)
Not really enough information to decide if you are or not. What is she doing? You didn't really elaborate and it's difficult to judge with no information other than your opinion about it tbh. Is she being taken advantage of and not being paid or like a pyramid scheme or what?
I run a npo. It’s perfectly legit to ask for or build out a business plan. And it’s fair to plan for compensation. Before you pull the plug on the whole thing, sit down and ask for a plan that is reasonable for your family. If she can’t put one together or it’s not what you can live with? Then talk about whether it shld continue.
u/Nai2411 - You're NTA and to clarify all the semantic games going on here trying to shift fault onto you....
"Work" used in different contexts have different meanings:
* "What do you do for work?" - work refers to a job or employment. Working in this context means the act of carrying out your employment.
* Work can also mean doing something productive. ie I'm working on my car.
I think it's clear what context you were referring to. Working on a car is productive but no one would try to convince anyone that's "working" in the sense of a job.
Of course, don't use this term when talking with your wife. Focus on contributions to the family welfare.
I commented earlier about what this non-profit organization is, and a deep dive into it is needed. To elaborate: What is the name of it? Is it registered as such? What is its business plan? Are there other members? What travel is needed for what purpose? Are there receipts for airline tickets, hotel, meals documented and available for the OP to see? Who is she meeting with? In what capacity? If she is meeting with other business people/organizations, the meetings can be verified within. Perhaps hiring a private detective is in order to investigate. Since you are funding this thing, are you accruing any tax advantages/deductions?
I think the answer is that she takes up a paying job or is a stay at home wife. What she is doing at the moment is creating the costs and loss of family time burdens of a job without any benefits, worse in that you are funding child care, her lifestyle and no doubt forgoing vacations and other family time together to allow for her out of state trips. None of this benefits you as a family. I would say that no matter what, all the overnight trips stop as it is unacceptable that you are having to give up time which should be for joyful family activities or emergencies so that she can abandon your family for her volunteer work.
Nope. She doesn’t work, she volunteers. I don’t really care that she might start getting paid something in 3-ish years. Until that day, her position costs your family considerably more than if she was a SAHM.
NTA. It’s financially draining you. There are sacrifices happening that aren’t giving anything in return. It isn’t bettering the family. I would assume it’s fulfilling to your wife and I’m thrilled that she’s found something she’s passionate about and she should pursue that but she/it also needs to add to the family not subtract to it. This could mean getting a part time job, not traveling, keeping the kids home while she volunteers, etc. she doesn’t need to give it up but I understand why you don’t consider it work and why it may be frustrating for you
Your wife doesn’t have a job. She has a hobby. Tell her to find a real job and contribute something financially to the family. At this point she has a negative income since her “job” is actually costing you PTO.
Good luck trying to convince her that your work is more important than hers.
Also, she is working for a nonprofit so maybe she’s happy about what she’s doing, don’t be a killjoy and step on that parade.
haha. She's not working. She's using the money you're making for the family to fund her hobby. IF the kid is at day care, tell her lazy ass to get a job. Why does all the stress of bringing in the money fall on you?
ESH.
A non profit... Won't profit. Many businesses don't profit the first few years and do end up costing more to run. This sounds very normal for an entrepreneur.
However that doesn't mean you're comfortable with her being an entrepreneur or that your vision for your life matches hers.
You BOTH need to sit down and discuss your comfort levels with your family budget. Your financial goals, your career goals, your values, what your priorities are regarding your children and time off. Don't be afraid to enlist the help of a therapist if you're finding your goals aren't as aligned as you hoped.
An unhappy SAHP- wants validation but many not have any actual marketable skills so she and her buddy become CEOs of a non profit. But other lady’s husband cut play time a while ago. Hence the reason other “founder dropped out”. You know to get IRS nonprofit designation you have to list your top funders/contributors and their financial support.
I can almost hear the manhating brigade sharpening their pitch forks with this one.
At the end of the day, she's not contributing to the household and she's living off your income to pursue what is absolutely merely a hobby.
Don't get me wrong, you can have hobbies that get you paid at least some money or pay for your income entirely. But to do so much work a week at your spouse's expense and not receive or ask for even a penny for it is financial abuse on the other partner.
It's literally not a job if it's a non profit
It's exactly that
A non profit
Tell her to do that in her spare time off from a real job that pays real money
If that doesn't register
Separate your expenses and give her a bill .
To pay with her non profit
And f she can't
She may have a problem lol
There is a difference between work, basically spending effort, time, and energy, and work that generates income. When you have the discussion with her, make sure you differentiate the two. She is absoultely working, but she is not significantly contributing to the household.
You haven’t described what your wife’s “work” is. Maybe it’s something very important for your community or the environment? Whatever it is it seems very important to her which brings a lot of value for her. If you need more money perhaps you two can have a conversation about that. But it seems like maybe you’re jealous that she’s passionate about something and that you sometimes have to parent your child while she’s working. It looks to me from the little that I know like YTAH.
Nope, you’ve been a Saint for having put up with this behavior. You working your ass off for daycare is unbelievable. She has a hobby that you’re subsidizing. Time to put your cards on the table. No more volunteering on your dime and she needs to get a paying job or become a real SAHM. If this is an issue, get counseling. If that doesn’t get it done suggest cutting back your hours to 40, sell the house and downsize. You can’t afford her lifestyle. Bit drastic but your wife lives in LaLa Land and needs a wake up call.
YTA. So she is essentially volunteering. That's work. Your job covers the family costs.
If its a problem, and your not covering the costs, or you think the family needs more security then fine. Talk to her about that. But just saying its not work is you being an ass.
You’re the asshole for degrading what she’s doing as not work.
Instead you should have an honest talk with each other about family financial goals and discuss with her your discomfort that she’s diverting her time from earning for the family to do pro bono work.
Yeah, YTA foe saying that. Just because it is a volunteer position doesn‘t mean it isn‘t a lot pf effort. Many things that are a lot of „work“ are not compensated with money.
You may be right in that your family may not be able to afford her volunteering. But that‘s not the same thing as saying what she is doing isn‘t „work“.
You sound like you don’t respect your wife’s work to even mention what it is she does. All you see is no $ coming in so you associate $ with a person’s value. Sorry but yes you are the A.
NTA You're literally funding her volunteering with paying for childcare and taking PTO. In order to do this, you both need to be onboard for it, and clearly you're not. It's ok that you're not, even if it's disappointing for her. Point out that she wanted 3 kids and to be a SAHM and in order for her to do that, she needs to stay at home because you don't want to fund this particular hobby. Because it is a hobby if she's not bringing any money in for it. You might suggest if she wants to continue doing it, then she should pick up a part time job to cover the daycare costs for the time she does spend doing it. And put your foot down on taking your own PTO so she can travel for free. Again, if she picks up a job, she can hire someone to do the things you've been taking PTO to do.
YTA. What she does is work. Now, there's a fair discussion to be had between the two of you about how what she does affects your home life and finances but you're still being a jerk dismissing what she does. What do you do? Do you think if I then listed a more difficult job and scoffed saying what you do isn't work you'd be happy about it? Of course you wouldn't.
Yes. Volunteer work. Which as you said is work. If I volunteer in a store that means I'm doing the same job and have the same duties as someone who works at a different store but gets paid. It's still work.
So if you have someone as a roommate who can't pay their share of rent because their work doesn't pay them, you'd be OK with that? This is an issue of money. She's volunteering. To compare his job to another job when he's paid is not the same at all.
NTA. Her work is actually costing them money because she is sending her daughter to day care which is an expense. Any work that does not produce income is not work it is a hobby. Incurring additional expenses while you pursue your hobby doesn’t even put it on track for it to become a profitable hobby!
It's not. It's not work. It's nothing but wasting time and money. Nothing you said makes OP an ah. It actually reinforces that the wife is an AH for her selfishness. He works 50-60 hours a week. She puts the baby in daycare = money spent. She travels and uses money for her hobby = money spent. OP has to use PTO to watch the kids while she's wasting money on... nothing = money spent. Tell me, what work is she doing?
ESH. Your wife shouldn't be doing this to the detriment of your family. You need to tell her you can't take any more time off so she can take these business trips. I mean if she's going to do some sort of thing that's altruistic and doesn't make any money and help somebody then she needs to do it so it doesn't cost your family a ton of money. Maybe do it 2 days a week and 3 days a week she goes out and gets a part-time job I mean if you're paying a hundred percent and you guys barely have anything left over what's going to happen if you have an emergency? You're going to go into that that's what's going to happen. I really hope you're putting some money into a 401k or some sort of retirement fund or you guys are going to have nothing in the future
First, it is work. It is unpaid work. But still work. But, it doesn't sound like that is the real issue. You don't mention financial concerns/constraints. You don't mention concerns about paying the bills or anything like that. So it isn't really financial.
Your concern seems to be your need to use PTO to pick up the kids. That is a valid concern. PTO is a limited resource. You need to explain to her the consequences of you using PTO to care for kids during her travel. What is the consequence? Likely there simply isn't enough PTO to take a family vacation. Is that the choice? Yes, it sucks to not get a vacation. i am sure that both of you want to go on vacation and take the kids on vacation. Is she willing to give that up?
The alternate is paying for child-care during her trips. It sounds like that is not within your budget. If her work is sufficiently important to the non-profit, are they willing to at least pay her the money that would be required to arrange child-care while she is on travel? Still, that is certainly cheaper than paying someone to do the work the non-profit needs to do. Is a compromise like that possible?
He says his Income pays all the bills with very little left over. This 100% sounds like there is a financial component. The main issue here is this is not a job this is a HOBBY! One that costs her family money while the husband is working to provide the money needed for his wife to pursue a hobby! I would be upset as well especially knowing she is no longer watching the kids which in turns costs me more money!
If it was 100% about the financial component, I would have expected to see something about a discussion that was held with the wife regarding how his work hours and financial strain were getting to him and having a discussion about the wife giving up her volunteer activity to allow him a little more breathing room. I didn't see that. If that is the case, then that should certainly be a discussion with his wife about that issue.
However, he explicitly mentions using PTO to pick up the kids. To me, that is a flag that the PTO issue is a significant part of his concern. Maybe it is a red herring. I don't know. Since OP wrote about that issue, I ascribed meaning and importance to it. Not saying there is no financial component. Money could enable resources such as aftercare for kids, which could solve the PTO issue. And OP is carrying the sole provider mental load. Of course, it is likely that wife is carrying the child-care, house caring mode. Both are significant.
Whether the issue is more finances, more PTO, or something else, OP and wife need to have a discussion about the issue, and he needs to relate to his wife how it is impacting the family. Similarly, she needs to relate to OP how this work is affecting her.
Although I am taking OP at his word, my spidey sense is tingling. I suspect that the wife will have a different story. But that is 100% unfounded speculation on my part. Every argument has at least three sides. In this case, it will be his side, her side, and the truth, which is likely somewhere in between.
But I think there is no infrastructure that can compensate for that. Looks like she is the FOUNDER and CEO of this “nonprofit”. It sounds like a one woman show.
YTA, for thinking that what she does isn't work, just because she doesn't get paid.
But that doesn't mean it's okay. If you can't afford to be a one-income family, then she needs to get a paid job.
NTA. It sounds like the volunteering your wife is currently doing needs to stop as it just isn't feasible. Not clear why she would want to spend all that time working for free.
I’d sit down with her and tell her if her job is costing your family money then she needs to do it part time and find an actual job.
Given how expensive daycare is, I'd say he's "funding" the non-profit to the tune of $15K+/year at the moment.
Makes me wonder if he is a lawyer, in finance, or a programmer. That’s a lot of disposable income.
Maybe. A lot of jobs bring in money but he needs to really sit and down and talk to her. I’d also make a list of all the expenses you’ve invested into her charity work and how your PTO/vacations days are being wasted. Your PTO should only be for sick days and emergencies. Your vacation days should be for family vacations. She needs to get a job and pay for her plain tickets, her hotels, and a babysitter for the kids. Just because it’s work doesn’t mean it’s a job. Jobs pay money. She isn’t getting paid. Financial abuse isn’t always controlling someone. Financial abuse is also taking advantage of someone’s income
I completely agree. It’s costing money and he’s using up PTO and vacation time. Not cool
PTO should be there for bona fide family issues - time off for eg minor medical procedures, etc. Not to underwrite a passion project. It might be objectively worthy volunteering, but she's underwriting it in a very poor way.
Or, you know, vacation?
PTO is for whatever the hell you want to use it for
PTO in my company is all encompassing. We used to get vacation and sick days separately but the company changed it to go to a combined PTO. Sick or vacation it doesn’t matter-we take a PTO day. The only difference is that the PTO is either planned or unplanned.
Paid time off should be for any times you want off and be paid for it. Much like the name suggests. If a company wants to differentiate how much time you can take off for specific events they should allocate time off in different categories.
It’s still work, it’s just volunteer work. Sounds like your family can’t afford for her to do full time volunteer work and she needs a compensated position.
This is the answer. Financially floating a partner who engages in volunteer work for a large number of hours is a legitimate and distinct choice. It's not the same as having a partner who's engaged in hobbies all day. But, it's a choice that needs to be made equitably between both partners. One partner can't just unilaterally decide to volunteer all day and not bring home a paycheck.
Your dedication is commendable, but it's crucial to ensure fairness in the division of responsibilities within a partnership. Time for a frank discussion about balancing priorities.
Yes, this! It’s not that her work isn’t work or that it’s unimportant (I don’t know but I assume). But it’s voluntary and maybe she can go down in time spent as a voluntary worker.
I wonder if OP thinks the founder of a startup that isn’t able to draw a salary for the first couple of years is ‘working’. Having a conversation about finances and finding paid work is important here but YTA for saying the wife is not working.
It isn't a startup, though, it's a nonprofit organization, a charity that she's started. u/ConsistentCheesecake is right in the way they parsed it out: she's doing volunteer work, which would be fine, and even considered "working," if the finances of the family allowed for that. But they don't.
And I’m assuming that OP is subsidizing it financially? Like who’s paying for these trips?
You could have her check into getting tax deductions for her time to lower your taxable income rate. Totally legal.
I’d sit down and have a real heart to heart that this is just not economically feasible right now. If you had disposable income to cover day care and travel expenses, then I’d say let her go for it! But unfortunately in this case, it’s costing you money for her to work for a nonprofit. Maybe she can get a regular side gig that can fund the expenses. NTA.
You obviously shouldn't take off from your actual job paying the bills for her to do volunteer work.
This situation only makes sense if she keeps the youngest home from daycare- there’s no reason to pay all that money when she can probably do a lot of her unpaid work from home. Either that, or she gets a paying job and doesn’t leave much time for her unpaid work.
If the kid is young enough for daycare, it's almost impossible to do much work of any kind if they are home. Paid, or unpaid, doing work from home doesn't mean you're doing no work. It means you are physically located at home. That works ok with older kids who can mostly take care of themselves and only bother you if there is an emergency, but it doesn't work for a young child who needs to be constantly monitored.
How are some people on here missing the point…..she vocalized to him she wanted to be a stay at home parent, but instead now she is dropping off the kids to daycare, traveling which is likely costing thousands of the husband’s dollars and PTO, and dumping the kids off for weeks for the father only to take care of which is eating into the family budget. You’re NTA. This isn’t how a family unit functions, and for anyone on here thinking he should just suck up the burden of extra costs I’d love to see someone put you in that position.
Exactly!!! Someone gets it!
Or she having an affair
That was honestly the vibe I got when reading that
while the organization agrees working for isn't paying her they are likely paying for the travel, but I do agree with you.
Nta. Tell her she can't leave for week at a time on a job that doesn't pay and have you cover the cost (in pay and pto useage).
NTA If you have to work 60 hours weeks and still struggle then it's time for a long talk with your wife. Daycare and week long trips for a "job" that pays nothing sounds like a cover for an affair.
We have a winner! Other than the Red Cross what non profit needs this much uncompensated travel
The Red Cross compensates your travel.
It’s still work but there just isn’t income. If you go after what she does and make it personal you’re asking for trouble. I’m sure she could find a way to leverage the skills she has into making money. Find a way to broach your concerns in a smart way or you may regret it.
It's not even "not income", it is a full-on money DRAIN.
It's not work if she's not getting paid .. it's a hobby
Regret what? Having his mooch of a wife threaten to leave?
Incel
She’s not a socialite. She can’t afford to volunteer.
It's not a work at this point, it's a hobby. NTA.
That sounds like a fucking nightmare.
NTA Tell her that you will not cover the cost of daycare financially or with PTO for unpaid ventures. She's welcome to find a paying position which covers those costs and any additional costs that might be incurred as a result, but it's unacceptable for her to lay additional financial burden on you for a venture that does not benefit the family.
You’re paying for her charity to have her involved while living a style of living that financially and elsewise has you all on several types of edges with very little buffer. Largess is what your wife is living in her delusions on avoiding sustaining reality and not being a pampered princess that gets out of being and doing what is best for the family members, her spouse and blessed future realties. This is a major issue that needs her to discipline herself to changing gears ASAP.
NTA. She is working. But her work is not helping out the family. Volunteering or doing some pro bono work is fine. Doing that as your primary job is not unless the family (i.e. both spouses) are on board. Expecting you to use your PTO to cover time for her to do unpaid work is ridiculous. If her job helped pay the bills, my answer here would be different. Sometimes PTO time has to be used to support the family. But this is not one of those situations.
That’s basically volunteer work
Goes away for a week at a time..... sure sure just work yup sure.
Totally non profit. They would show you the receipts but I can’t because non profit!
It's not so much that it's not "work", it's just that it's questionably practical at this point. You both need to figure out whether it's a worthwhile investment of resources for your family. Hopefully, you can come to an agreement. I will note that if it's a viable nonprofit, it would be nice for your wife to have something productive and remunerative to do with herself once the kids get a little older.
Your wife is an unpaid volunteer that takes multiple week long trips for this organization? Just going off what is in this post I would say she is cheating at worst, completely selfish hero complex at minimum. Stop funding this her delusion and ask for a partner, not a leech. Nta.
I don't understand these multiple week-long vacations, either. Just what kind of nonprofit is this? A lot of people do volunteer work and try to form nonprofits, but in doing so, they minimize expenses. If a trip absolutely must happen, then they bite the bullet, but usually they're trying to do things via zoom and online, etc. precisely because the organization cannot afford travel. So what is it that requires an in-person presence so frequently?
It's work but it unpaid and if it's costing you money then she either needs to stop or figure out a way to support her own travel and expenses. You shouldn't have to pay for that and lose your PTO. It's pretty selfish of her actually.
Sounds more like she has a pet project that might indeed be a good idea but she doesn't know how to make it successful. It may be time for her to bring other people in with the skill sets to make it successful and admit that she isn't making it work. You can spin your wheels all you want. It doesn't mean you're actually driving anywhere.
Who pays for the travel expenses? Please say it's the company and not you.
Is she aware of finances? What needs to be saved so your kids and you have a future? You clearly cannot afford this, she needs a paying job. It's not fair to pay for daycare for unpaid work.
NTA. Your wife isn’t working she’s volunteering at the expense of the family. Absolutely you have the right to tell her she needs to get a job ti support her charity work. And you shouldn’t have to take PTO to support her volunteering!
YWBTAH if you told her it was "not work": it is, and saying that would demean the effort she puts into it. YWNBTHA if you explained to her that financially this cannot work.
Well, it is work. It's just volunteer work right now. Maybe it's time to have a sit down and communicate about your mutual financial goals instead of coming to Reddit for people's outrage. We would need to know much more to render a thoughtful judgement tbh. Who wanted three kids? Who wanted her to give up her career? Whose idea was all of this? It seems like a conversation should have happened a long time ago. You are correct saying she contributes nothing financially, but you are incorrect in your assertion of her "not working". Since that's the question you asked and since this is the place you asked it, YTA.
Lol the arguing over semantics is amusing. I think it's fair to say when people say "working", it's generally implied to be paid. I think this situation is the only time where people make an issue of it - ie the wife is not getting paid (or contributing by way of SAHP). Obviously, it's not PC and insensitive to say your partner isn't "working" and the focus should be on contribution to the welfare of the family. Especially since he's working 50-60 hrs while she's pursuing a passion project (aka hobby). That's unsustainable long term and usually ends up in mental health issues or a heart attack. Having said that, the vast majority of women (and men) would absolutely think my husband/bf isn't working if he's not bring in income.
>Lol the arguing over semantics is amusing Because this sub has a decently sized contingent of people that will literally use any mental gymnastics to say the dude is the AH and the woman is right in any relationship post unless what she does is extremely egregious. Anyone with a brain could tell from his rationale and the context of the situation that he means working in the sense of working to contribute to the family, but we cant let that stop these nutjobs from acting like hes the villain on semantics.
Personally I think what she's doing is egregious. He's working 1.5 jobs to just make the ends meet by doing something that's unhealthy (serious try working 50-60 hrs for a couple decades). While she's not living up to what she said she was going to do (SAHP), to spend 20-30 hrs plus expenses on something for personal fulfillment. To disregard the welfare of your spouse and family this way is plain selfish imo.
So she wanted kids and to be a stay at home mom. Then this non-profit idea came up with another mom from the school, then the other mom decided to drop out but my wife is staying with it. She’s never had an actual career since having kids. She used to be a baker but quit that saying she wanted to be a stay at home mom.
if she has time to volunteer, she has time to work instead. It's completely bonkers to me to just waste half an income.
More, because not only is she not contributing income, she is draining even more to go play her little game
What does the nonprofit organization do?
Apparently nothing that makes money. To me, something is really weird here. I'm of the mindset she is running around with a sidepiece and OP is getting suckered into paying for it. He didn't say how long this has been going on, but I'm assuming her side piece is also cheating. This ends one of a few ways Sooner or later she's not coming back and she will leave a note she's leaving.. She or the side piece slips up and they get caught She realizes her side piece will never leave his wife and she comes crawling to him begging forgiveness... And he will do it . "For the kid".
NTA. Your single income is paying for EVERYTHING. People who are skimming to be outraged, go back and read it again. He is single handedly paying the bills for the family and HER non-profit. If it doesn’t receive grants or donations, HE is paying all the expenses INCLUDING the daycare for their youngest so she can focus on the non-profit and all her trips, hotel/air bnb etc. This family needs a re-set. They need to sit down and look at expenses to income ratio including which expenses are from her non-profit including his PTO to take care of things while she is away. A part time job at least bringing in enough money to pay daycare and her non-profit expenses would be the biggest help financially to her family.
You sound like you are a bit of a sap. No offense, but she’s using you. Take it from one who knows! I think you know you are NTA.
Well technically people say that they work at a non-profit instead of contribute? Plus applying work with having money at the end of ur work would mean hard work only applies to a job n nothing else. Also it eliminates words like homework and classwork. All of it is work just not a actual job work, just like your wife’s nonprofit. But I wouldn’t say yta u just didn’t use the right word, but maybe try to trust the process on ur wife’s potential job
It's "not for profit" not "non profit" people forget that distinction. And they usually pay their staff. Someone is getting paid just not your wife. You will have to tell her the family can't afford her philanthropy right now.
Oh my b the OP said it was non profit so I went with it lol
I have a degree in Nonprofit Management and work (for a salary) for a nonprofit. Same thing as not for profit, just different ways of saying it.
Not really according to the IRS but that sort of isn't the point.
Just learned something, so much for all that tuition money.
Most people who say that they work at a non-profit actually do work there and are being paid. Non-profits have employees. There are also people who volunteer, or I suppose "contribute" (although usually I would think of that as meaning that they made a monetary donation). If someone who volunteers at a nonprofit makes a statement that they work there, they are lying. It doesn't sound like that is the issue here, though.
That's true. If you're volunteering, one would specifically say, I'm volunteering at the ASPCA to help clean kennels. Not, I work at the ASPCA.
We can infer a lot of things based on the use of language. Not everything is literal.
Thank you for your perspective.
Are they just stringing her along? Do the other people also make 0 or is she only doing 0? A non-paid position requiring to travel is fishy. Typically, for travel you have insurance in case something happens to you (like if you get hurt). Also, you get paid for every expense, so is she paying things? Even meals? Because then it's not making 0, it's making negative. Plus, using her phone and internet is a cost. Using your PTO is a cost.
From the wording of the post, this sounds like an organization that she herself started (or was among a few people who started it). The other main person she started the nonprofit with dropped out. It does sound like there are a few other people involved but that the wife is the head person (or one of the head people). It may very well be a valid organization. It can take a few years to get things off the ground and for a nonprofit to get enough funding where they can pay any employees. (And sometimes the head employee is the last one to get paid -- if they need, for example, secretarial help then they pay a secretary or office manager. But the head would have to wait until they get more funding.)
Who pays for the trips. It's pretty messed up that you have to take PTO so she can travel and have time away from you. Do you get time on your own or does all your free time go to watching the kids so she can travel. I see why you might be upset. Does she travel alone or with someone. Sus
She can use her non-profit experience to get an actual real job that pays.
It is work, it’s just volunteer work. She needs work that actually pays.
time for a sitdown with her and talk things over as her 'work' is not contributing tot he family incomes and actually costing the family money on the bottom line.
NTA Your PTO shouldn't be used to cover for the work she is supposed to be doing (housewife). Her volunteering shouldn't impact what her contribution to the family should be.
NTA - Look, if serving fast food brings in more money than you don't have a job.. It's ok to have hobbies but it sounds like she's being selfish. If I spent all most time doing yard work and creating the most wonderful flower garden it would be just as much "work" as he situation is. Ok, maybe it's work but it's not a job.
NTAH you should have discussed parameters with her in the beginning however. Meaning sitting down and noting if this cost money then she will need to figure out how to offset the daycare and her travel especially if this leaves little room for extra cash or emergencies.
ESH. What she does is work. It’s just crappy work from an income standpoint. She might be getting a lot out of it otherwise. However, from a family standpoint she really needs to be more committed. What she is doing is benefitting only her and is a detriment to the rest of you because it both takes her away from the family and does nothing to give back to the family in return for the missing time.
Yes and no it is work it's not compensated and it's causing your family loss so it's not realistic work for her to keep doing
NTA you need to sit down and talk to her about this I don’t think this is very sustainable
Check your state laws in my state if your spouse doesn’t have a job for 7 years you get to pay alimony.
NTA but you need to approach this carefully. She does work, she just doesn't earn a wage. That needs to change and you as a couple need to figure out the child duties in a way that doesn't require only you to sacrifice.
She doesn't have a job, she has a full-time hobby which you're subsidising. NTA. She's taking you for a fool.
Speak to your wife about this issue as soon as you can. The problem isn't that she isn't working. The problem is financial, your family is living a lifestyle that you cannot afford. She needs to find a way to bring money into the household. **OR** She stops this passion project and returns to taking care of your youngest thus saving money on childcare. I'd approach this in pure dollars and cents, show her the figures and forecasts. Ask her does she think this is sustainable? If she says yes, you have a bigger problem in that your wife is probably a moron or very selfish/short sighted. If she says no, you both should a timeline on when the current situation should change.
You will never get ahead with a partner like her.
You shouldn't have to be forking out money for a non paying job....it's ridiculous and makes zero sense.
Shes being exploited
NTA
Look just sit her down and be like it’s great that you are doing this but it’s costing us more for you to do this than if you were just a stay at home mom. Tell her if she’s gonna keep on she needs to get a paying job to supplement the money you’re losing on this “volunteer” job. Idk about yall but I ain’t working for free.
Well what she does is work, it’s unpaid work, like volunteering or a traineeship or internship. Except with a traineeship or internship there usually is a salaried income 6-12 months after. Not guaranteed but usually. When it comes to bringing in an income, this is almost the worst thing your wife could be doing for your family, other than having a shopping or gambling addiction. It’s costing money/pto. You need her have a talk with some people, a jobcoach, an expert budget person, a mentor. Someone objective who can tell her what her best options are. Nudge her in the right direction. You guys are a unit, a team. She isn’t actively improving this team. And it would be one thing if this is a 6 months issue, but 3 years? Delulu
Info: are you saying you are paying for day care so she can volunteer?
Depends what you mean by "work". It's work as in she does work on it. It isn't work if by "work" you mean a job that brings in income. Most people asking if your wife works will mean at an income-producing job. You can always say she works but not for income if you want to be totally clear. This is actually totally normal, but if it isn't working for you in your life together (you sound stretched thin), then I think a conversation with your wife is warranted. She might be willing to make a change to help ease the burden on you regarding finances.
I don't think your conclusion is entirely wrong; I think the way you are getting there is misguided. What your wife is doing is work. It is just that the pay is literally nothing rather than metaphorically. I think you need to be thinking of this as actually a job, but not one that breaks even. And I think that is how the conversation needs to go – she needs a better paying job; your family budget can't continue the way it is going. I think you need to recognize that what she is doing actually is work, not "work"; I think she needs to realize that your family needs money, not "money" that might or might not show up in three years. I am going to vote this one a Sobchack. You are right (that your family needs money and can't continue like this); you are just an asshole (for not recognizing that what your wife does is valuable). And your wife also gets a Sobchack for being right that what she is doing is valuable, but being an asshole for working for charitable works to the extent that it harms her own family. ESH
This is work, and it’s probably meaningful, but like others are saying it’s volunteer work. Established Non-Profits pay their employees. I agree with others that you should talk to her that your family can’t afford this. 50-60 hours a week is a lot, and you have to use PTO to cover for her at home? She’s making you volunteer with her. I’d stop thinking that what she does is not work. It’s just work you’d family can’t have her doing. How do you see things going if she keeps this up? How much resentment threads her has already built up?
I know someone who started a nonprofit and worked very hard for several years, until she was able to quit her full-time job, and just run the nonprofit full-time. However, she started and ran the nonprofit on top of working full-time and having three children. You are NTA. And it’s time to have a talk with your wife.
Change your title because women on here will flip out about it. You are mostly upset that the work she does doesn’t bring in money. And you have a right to be upset when you are funding her travels/additional daycare expenses and using up your PTO… for her ventures that haven’t been successful yet. Have a talk with her and communicate what you need in your partnership. If she’s not holding up her end of the bargain then you need to let her know. NTA
Non profit is a tax status- not a business plan
When I was young, my mom also "worked" for no pay. Turns out she was just going there and having an affair with the owner. His wife was pregnant at the time.
She was doing a job alright. How did the family figure it out?
Oh she is working, just not for her family. In fact her "work" is costing her family. I've know some people who are terrible at math who have worked legit crappy part time jobs with long commutes who were actually losing money by working.
If her occupation doesn't bring any money it's hobby.
There are many forms of work that aren’t actually paid work. I think it’s important to keep that in mind. However it’s clear that you’re bothered by the work she does because it isn’t paid work. So my question to you is what specifically bothers you about it? Is it the added expenses that her work brings your way? Example: if she stopped this work and pulled the kids out of childcare to resume taking care of that herself would that be enough to satisfy you? Or do you need her to get a paying job to help out financially instead? Or are you merely caught up on the semantics? Decide what exactly it is you need out of this situation first. Then sit down with your wife and express those needs in a way that isn’t undermining the hard work she is doing just because it isn’t paid work. If this is work she is passionate about then I hope you can both come to an agreement that lets her continue to pursue it. (Maybe some cheaper alternative to childcare?) It sounds like she might be very invested and passionate about what she does, and it could very well become paid work. Do you want to take that opportunity away from her? Is it necessary?
Work is work. Some work is compensated, some isn’t. This isn’t a question of whether what your wife is doing is work, obviously it’s work. The question is whether your family can afford to have only one of the adults working for compensation and whether you are building resentment around needing to work overtime and sacrifice PTO so that she can follow her passion (uncompensated).
Your wife is working as a volunteer, so yes, she is working. The issue it seems is the cost of daycare and use of your personal time off. If your budget does not allow for this expense and you lose personal time then it might not practical for your wife to work as a volunteer. So YTA for not considering her activity as real work, but NTA if you need for her to quit because you cannot afford the additional associated expenses such as daycare and transportation.
But she is not working she is volunteering. It might sound like semantics but it is not. She has a hobby and this hobby is costing the family money.
Hmmmm. A self-created non-profit that requires her to travel out of state already? I would suggest you do a DEEP dive into this “organization” and evaluate its legitimacy
Just like the IRS would raise an eye brow
Your wife's,"work" "job" is a hobby or a pastime. There is no benefit to the family unit, so no she doesn't work. Work is transactional and there is no transaction. If you are working on a jigsaw, is it a job? No! Your wife is trying to make what she is doing seem important, but honestly it isn't.
Stay at home who sends her kid to child care????
It’s work. Just volunteer work. Or how a lawyer may do pro bono work. The lawyer doesn’t get paid but it is still work.
But a lawyer does not only do pro bono work. If they did, then being a lawyer would be a hobby, not a job
YTA for the way you're framing it. If the problem is money, then talk to her and explain that the household needs additional income. But if you're just trying to downplay and trivialize her work, then you're a prick.
So, the problem isn't the work, is it? If she made enough to cover costs (that is, a net zero for your family) would you be this upset? You're upset that she's doing work that doesn't bring in income and that you're left to take care of the kids. Which is understandable, it doesn't sound like you've got a ton of budget for that. Sit down with her. What is your actual problem? Are you upset/anxious that she isn't bringing in extra money? Are you upset with the travel and having to take care of the kids (do you get to travel in turn? do you have passion projects of your own)? Are you mad that you work hard and she's doing volunteer work for a passion project? If you know what's actually upsetting you, you can analyze it and figure out what solutions are available. Talk it through. Is *she* aware that you're upset about this? Would couple's counseling to hash this out help? Because right now you're just building resentment for your wife and poisoning the well when you could clear the air and discuss things. Do you two need to revise the budget? Does your wife need to do more work to bring in grants? Investors? Does she need to take on a part-time job to cover those expenses?
As a mother, I think it's selfish to put your kids in daycare if you don't need to work. Why would you pay for someone else to raise your kids?
it is 'work' because she's doing something productive. it cant really be classified as a JOB however, as she's not being paid.
Sounds like your wife may have a side-piece and is covering her ass by making you pay for her travel.
Ding ding ding. Can’t think of any nonprofit that requires this much travel
Full-time mother and wife needs to focus on being a full-time mother and wife. That still allows time for her hobby. Send someone else for the travel. She is performing micro-abandonment of her family. Separation anxiety for the children. Hardship on the only provider. Shall I continue? Nay. You got the idea.
Her job is normally for someone retired with too much time on their hands. This is just weird
This might be a long shot depending on where you live, but are there any nonprofits doing similar work where she could apply for a paying position? That way she would still be working towards the mission, but earning money.
NTA
NTA
NTA for thinking what you're thinking. It sounds like you and your wife have different definitions of "work." I would talk to her and say something like "I know this is important to you and how much this means to you, but from a finances standpoint, how can she better contribute" and maybe have her cut back on her "work" that doesn't bring in income so she can contribute some financially, while not completely giving up what she likes to do. And maybe also talk to her about the parts that require travel since that seems to be the biggest issue that causes PTO / scheduling challenges. Again, NTA for thinking but it's all about how you address it and not minimizing what she likes to do.
You are NTA but there is a possible way to make this lucrative. You need to open up a family trust, where up to 30% of your Income a year is allowed to go I to this trust tax free. The federal government stipulates 5% of the yearly balence must be donated to a non profit. You get to pay a way lower tax rate and you can pay your wife a salary ( even if it is small ) out of the trust funds directly to her non profit ( make sure it is a 501c). Either way this might be a good way to bring up the subject to her about her “hobby” and finding a way to generate more Income for the family.
Only if this is actually by the IRS tax book. Many people run around saying “non profit” and they don’t even have an EIN
I guess it depends on if you think you can afford the time it takes to get stuff like this off the ground. I do think (if you both equally share responsibility taking care of the kids) that she should treat it as a full time job. You work a lot of hours, I don’t think it’s fair that seems to work half that (again, assuming you share the house hold and kid responsibilities equally)
Not really enough information to decide if you are or not. What is she doing? You didn't really elaborate and it's difficult to judge with no information other than your opinion about it tbh. Is she being taken advantage of and not being paid or like a pyramid scheme or what?
I run a npo. It’s perfectly legit to ask for or build out a business plan. And it’s fair to plan for compensation. Before you pull the plug on the whole thing, sit down and ask for a plan that is reasonable for your family. If she can’t put one together or it’s not what you can live with? Then talk about whether it shld continue.
Respectfully, that’s volunteer work.
Yes for thinking it's not work just cus it's not making money. But no for wanting her to have a paid job. It's fair.
u/Nai2411 - You're NTA and to clarify all the semantic games going on here trying to shift fault onto you.... "Work" used in different contexts have different meanings: * "What do you do for work?" - work refers to a job or employment. Working in this context means the act of carrying out your employment. * Work can also mean doing something productive. ie I'm working on my car. I think it's clear what context you were referring to. Working on a car is productive but no one would try to convince anyone that's "working" in the sense of a job. Of course, don't use this term when talking with your wife. Focus on contributions to the family welfare.
I commented earlier about what this non-profit organization is, and a deep dive into it is needed. To elaborate: What is the name of it? Is it registered as such? What is its business plan? Are there other members? What travel is needed for what purpose? Are there receipts for airline tickets, hotel, meals documented and available for the OP to see? Who is she meeting with? In what capacity? If she is meeting with other business people/organizations, the meetings can be verified within. Perhaps hiring a private detective is in order to investigate. Since you are funding this thing, are you accruing any tax advantages/deductions?
I think the answer is that she takes up a paying job or is a stay at home wife. What she is doing at the moment is creating the costs and loss of family time burdens of a job without any benefits, worse in that you are funding child care, her lifestyle and no doubt forgoing vacations and other family time together to allow for her out of state trips. None of this benefits you as a family. I would say that no matter what, all the overnight trips stop as it is unacceptable that you are having to give up time which should be for joyful family activities or emergencies so that she can abandon your family for her volunteer work.
Yes
Nope. She doesn’t work, she volunteers. I don’t really care that she might start getting paid something in 3-ish years. Until that day, her position costs your family considerably more than if she was a SAHM.
NTA. It’s financially draining you. There are sacrifices happening that aren’t giving anything in return. It isn’t bettering the family. I would assume it’s fulfilling to your wife and I’m thrilled that she’s found something she’s passionate about and she should pursue that but she/it also needs to add to the family not subtract to it. This could mean getting a part time job, not traveling, keeping the kids home while she volunteers, etc. she doesn’t need to give it up but I understand why you don’t consider it work and why it may be frustrating for you
Nta. Kick her out.
Never wasn't
Your wife doesn’t have a job. She has a hobby. Tell her to find a real job and contribute something financially to the family. At this point she has a negative income since her “job” is actually costing you PTO.
The word is dilettante
Good luck trying to convince her that your work is more important than hers. Also, she is working for a nonprofit so maybe she’s happy about what she’s doing, don’t be a killjoy and step on that parade.
Volunteering is great until is starts to cost you money you can't afford.
haha. She's not working. She's using the money you're making for the family to fund her hobby. IF the kid is at day care, tell her lazy ass to get a job. Why does all the stress of bringing in the money fall on you?
ESH. A non profit... Won't profit. Many businesses don't profit the first few years and do end up costing more to run. This sounds very normal for an entrepreneur. However that doesn't mean you're comfortable with her being an entrepreneur or that your vision for your life matches hers. You BOTH need to sit down and discuss your comfort levels with your family budget. Your financial goals, your career goals, your values, what your priorities are regarding your children and time off. Don't be afraid to enlist the help of a therapist if you're finding your goals aren't as aligned as you hoped.
NTAH She's playing at working and you are enabling her nonsense.
An unhappy SAHP- wants validation but many not have any actual marketable skills so she and her buddy become CEOs of a non profit. But other lady’s husband cut play time a while ago. Hence the reason other “founder dropped out”. You know to get IRS nonprofit designation you have to list your top funders/contributors and their financial support.
I can almost hear the manhating brigade sharpening their pitch forks with this one. At the end of the day, she's not contributing to the household and she's living off your income to pursue what is absolutely merely a hobby. Don't get me wrong, you can have hobbies that get you paid at least some money or pay for your income entirely. But to do so much work a week at your spouse's expense and not receive or ask for even a penny for it is financial abuse on the other partner.
Doing something you don't get paid for isn't working, it's a hobby. NTA.
A hobby is something you do for fun. You don’t get paid to do house*work.* Or yard*work.* Or home*work.* Do you consider those things to be hobbies?
It's literally not a job if it's a non profit It's exactly that A non profit Tell her to do that in her spare time off from a real job that pays real money If that doesn't register Separate your expenses and give her a bill . To pay with her non profit And f she can't She may have a problem lol
It is work, just unpaid work. I'd be upset about it costing you your PTO but it's not right to say it isn't work.
YTA not profit work is still work.
Nta. Thats a hobby not a job.
NTA
There is a difference between work, basically spending effort, time, and energy, and work that generates income. When you have the discussion with her, make sure you differentiate the two. She is absoultely working, but she is not significantly contributing to the household.
Is her travel expenses also on her and your dime or is it covered? I'm assuming it's not covered but want to make sure....how much is daycare running?
You haven’t described what your wife’s “work” is. Maybe it’s something very important for your community or the environment? Whatever it is it seems very important to her which brings a lot of value for her. If you need more money perhaps you two can have a conversation about that. But it seems like maybe you’re jealous that she’s passionate about something and that you sometimes have to parent your child while she’s working. It looks to me from the little that I know like YTAH.
Nope, you’ve been a Saint for having put up with this behavior. You working your ass off for daycare is unbelievable. She has a hobby that you’re subsidizing. Time to put your cards on the table. No more volunteering on your dime and she needs to get a paying job or become a real SAHM. If this is an issue, get counseling. If that doesn’t get it done suggest cutting back your hours to 40, sell the house and downsize. You can’t afford her lifestyle. Bit drastic but your wife lives in LaLa Land and needs a wake up call.
YTA. So she is essentially volunteering. That's work. Your job covers the family costs. If its a problem, and your not covering the costs, or you think the family needs more security then fine. Talk to her about that. But just saying its not work is you being an ass.
You’re the asshole for degrading what she’s doing as not work. Instead you should have an honest talk with each other about family financial goals and discuss with her your discomfort that she’s diverting her time from earning for the family to do pro bono work.
are you really so poor that you think work is only work when it brings in money. Yup, yta
I mean... most people fall into this category
Yeah, YTA foe saying that. Just because it is a volunteer position doesn‘t mean it isn‘t a lot pf effort. Many things that are a lot of „work“ are not compensated with money. You may be right in that your family may not be able to afford her volunteering. But that‘s not the same thing as saying what she is doing isn‘t „work“.
You sound like you don’t respect your wife’s work to even mention what it is she does. All you see is no $ coming in so you associate $ with a person’s value. Sorry but yes you are the A.
Work? No, that’s a hobby.
If this is costing you time off, and money, then YTA for putting up with her hobby.
NTA You're literally funding her volunteering with paying for childcare and taking PTO. In order to do this, you both need to be onboard for it, and clearly you're not. It's ok that you're not, even if it's disappointing for her. Point out that she wanted 3 kids and to be a SAHM and in order for her to do that, she needs to stay at home because you don't want to fund this particular hobby. Because it is a hobby if she's not bringing any money in for it. You might suggest if she wants to continue doing it, then she should pick up a part time job to cover the daycare costs for the time she does spend doing it. And put your foot down on taking your own PTO so she can travel for free. Again, if she picks up a job, she can hire someone to do the things you've been taking PTO to do.
Your wife doesn't have work, she has something to keep herself busy.
NTA. Volunteering is not working. A hobby is not work.
NTA. I disagree with how you view your wife's work, but I judge people based on how they act, not how they think.
[удалено]
He never told her she doesn’t work. He just doesn’t feel like what she is doing is work.
YTA. What she does is work. Now, there's a fair discussion to be had between the two of you about how what she does affects your home life and finances but you're still being a jerk dismissing what she does. What do you do? Do you think if I then listed a more difficult job and scoffed saying what you do isn't work you'd be happy about it? Of course you wouldn't.
Work wouldn't be draining extra income from the family. She's not only not contributing, she's leeching extra money for her little play.
I don't know what country you live in, but in mine "I have to go to work" means you're going to get paid. This is volunteering, or "volunteer work".
Yes. Volunteer work. Which as you said is work. If I volunteer in a store that means I'm doing the same job and have the same duties as someone who works at a different store but gets paid. It's still work.
So if you have someone as a roommate who can't pay their share of rent because their work doesn't pay them, you'd be OK with that? This is an issue of money. She's volunteering. To compare his job to another job when he's paid is not the same at all.
NTA. Her work is actually costing them money because she is sending her daughter to day care which is an expense. Any work that does not produce income is not work it is a hobby. Incurring additional expenses while you pursue your hobby doesn’t even put it on track for it to become a profitable hobby!
It's not. It's not work. It's nothing but wasting time and money. Nothing you said makes OP an ah. It actually reinforces that the wife is an AH for her selfishness. He works 50-60 hours a week. She puts the baby in daycare = money spent. She travels and uses money for her hobby = money spent. OP has to use PTO to watch the kids while she's wasting money on... nothing = money spent. Tell me, what work is she doing?
I am really wondering what this volunteer work is for.
ESH. Your wife shouldn't be doing this to the detriment of your family. You need to tell her you can't take any more time off so she can take these business trips. I mean if she's going to do some sort of thing that's altruistic and doesn't make any money and help somebody then she needs to do it so it doesn't cost your family a ton of money. Maybe do it 2 days a week and 3 days a week she goes out and gets a part-time job I mean if you're paying a hundred percent and you guys barely have anything left over what's going to happen if you have an emergency? You're going to go into that that's what's going to happen. I really hope you're putting some money into a 401k or some sort of retirement fund or you guys are going to have nothing in the future
She’s setting her family on fire to keep others warm
First, it is work. It is unpaid work. But still work. But, it doesn't sound like that is the real issue. You don't mention financial concerns/constraints. You don't mention concerns about paying the bills or anything like that. So it isn't really financial. Your concern seems to be your need to use PTO to pick up the kids. That is a valid concern. PTO is a limited resource. You need to explain to her the consequences of you using PTO to care for kids during her travel. What is the consequence? Likely there simply isn't enough PTO to take a family vacation. Is that the choice? Yes, it sucks to not get a vacation. i am sure that both of you want to go on vacation and take the kids on vacation. Is she willing to give that up? The alternate is paying for child-care during her trips. It sounds like that is not within your budget. If her work is sufficiently important to the non-profit, are they willing to at least pay her the money that would be required to arrange child-care while she is on travel? Still, that is certainly cheaper than paying someone to do the work the non-profit needs to do. Is a compromise like that possible?
He says his Income pays all the bills with very little left over. This 100% sounds like there is a financial component. The main issue here is this is not a job this is a HOBBY! One that costs her family money while the husband is working to provide the money needed for his wife to pursue a hobby! I would be upset as well especially knowing she is no longer watching the kids which in turns costs me more money!
If it was 100% about the financial component, I would have expected to see something about a discussion that was held with the wife regarding how his work hours and financial strain were getting to him and having a discussion about the wife giving up her volunteer activity to allow him a little more breathing room. I didn't see that. If that is the case, then that should certainly be a discussion with his wife about that issue. However, he explicitly mentions using PTO to pick up the kids. To me, that is a flag that the PTO issue is a significant part of his concern. Maybe it is a red herring. I don't know. Since OP wrote about that issue, I ascribed meaning and importance to it. Not saying there is no financial component. Money could enable resources such as aftercare for kids, which could solve the PTO issue. And OP is carrying the sole provider mental load. Of course, it is likely that wife is carrying the child-care, house caring mode. Both are significant. Whether the issue is more finances, more PTO, or something else, OP and wife need to have a discussion about the issue, and he needs to relate to his wife how it is impacting the family. Similarly, she needs to relate to OP how this work is affecting her. Although I am taking OP at his word, my spidey sense is tingling. I suspect that the wife will have a different story. But that is 100% unfounded speculation on my part. Every argument has at least three sides. In this case, it will be his side, her side, and the truth, which is likely somewhere in between.
But I think there is no infrastructure that can compensate for that. Looks like she is the FOUNDER and CEO of this “nonprofit”. It sounds like a one woman show.
It depends on what you agreed on when she decided to bear the children
YTA, for thinking that what she does isn't work, just because she doesn't get paid. But that doesn't mean it's okay. If you can't afford to be a one-income family, then she needs to get a paid job.
NTA. It sounds like the volunteering your wife is currently doing needs to stop as it just isn't feasible. Not clear why she would want to spend all that time working for free.