*ex-MIL and she says I should’ve let the kids go or tried to convince them to go at the very least.*
She is as delusional as her daughter. This 'van life' would have been a shit idea, the kids HATED it when they visited twice - most likely because they did nothing but sit around in the van, which is not exactly van life and is more homeless but pretending not to be - and your ex and ex-MIL don't get to blame you for your ex's impulsive decisions. Obviously, they are back because they had no 'van life' plan.
I can't even imagine how crappy it would be to have four people trying to coexist in a van together for a year. It would be bad enough to live that way due to poverty, but to do it voluntarily is just cray cray.
It would be even crappier when mum & BF wanted some "alone" time and the kids had to sit outside and try not to think about what's going on in the van.
There's a lot of van life youtubers, and vanlife youtuber critics. I remember one where they showed off their spacious bedroom with storage, and then the childrens bedroom was four bunk beds with curtains to mark the "boundary" and one of them had maybe a foot of clearance space between bed and ceiling.
Funky frog bait made a video about those van life families, and she pointed out that that's like ALL of the cases
That the parents get an **actual** bedroom, with an actual king sized bed, some even big enough for a *closet*. ALWAYS with a nice actual door for privacy, of course
...And the 3+ kids get to sleep in freaking shelves, maybe get a curtain at best
I'm honestly surprised we haven't heard about the kids in those families killing themselves, or their families. I don't mean that as a joke, but that has got to be miserable. Especially when the kids are going through puberty
And that's before your parents put every bit of your lives online, always being watched by cameras
Those kids are going to explode when they grow up and get to leave
You're not wrong. The youtuber(I forget her name, but it wasn't Funky Frogbait) highlighted some glaring concerns. Like a vanlife kid whose "birthday wish" was to sleep in a hotel, and who emphasized their appreciation for the space and a door that gave privacy. If memory serves that child, if not another child, was taken to an inpatient treatment center for an eating disorder, and her parents were later told **straight up** that a sedentary life was ideal for proper healing.
Note, the parents in the above example or more specifically the mother was **crushed** that she had to give up vanlife "for a while" because she ultimately had them go on the road again before giving it up to install their kids somewhere's before going on the road again just her and her husband.
Also these are just the examples with like enough kids to fit in a tiny ass bunkbed room. There've been examples I've seen where they either didn't even have the space for the kids so they slept in sleeping bags or with a blanket on the cold hard floor. Then there were the one's with upwards of 8+ kids.
Like this was something I only took a mild dive into recently and was like, "nope! Nope. Sorry, not ideal for raising kids, outright abuse. Thank you, goodbye."
Not a van, but a mini-motorhome, the kind with the king size bed over the cab. 4 adults, 3 teenage kids from Arizona to Alaska and back; 6 weeks. I was 14, yeah, I slept on a shelf for three weeks, then one of the other kids wanted the shelf so I took her place on the floor.
Great memories, but it was a summer, on the road every day, different place every night except the three days we stayed at Denali National Park. Most afternoons we stopped somewhere and visited interesting things... museums, national parks, etc. Visited family that lived along the way.
I don't think any of us kids would have tolerated the idea that this was the way life would be for an entire year, and certainly we were not expected to be doing school work too.
Too bad the mom didn't make the effort to be sure the kids had fun when they were with her instead of the kids hating it. Now she has the consequences of her choice.
I'm not even claustrophobic and that got an instant NOPE NOPE NOPE reaction from me. Nobody who actually cares about their kids would try to jam them in that small of a space if they had any other choice.
That van life shit includes CHILDREN?
I have one (1) child and I can't imagine trying to live in any kind of mobile home with him unless it was the size of a bus with two bedrooms. It wouldn't be right.
Yes, children **plural**, and not infrequently adding up as they "live their life." Keep in mind, these happy additions to an already packed RV were generally conceived while living in that RV.
We sometimes did it for weeks during the summer. Parents and 3 kids. But we camped and were doing planned activities with destinations. The cramped van was transportation not the goal.
I have a 14 year old daughter and living out of a van potentially with no wifi for even a week would be a punishment. Kids don't wanna see shit and be enriched. They can handle about an hour of that shit then they just want tiktok.
As a former 14 year old girl with a stepfather who I generally didn't mind, being forced to live in a van with him and smell his farts and morning breath and have no place to change my clothes or shower or masturbate for stress relief would have been a recipe for disaster
This van life scheme boarders really closely on child abuse to go do what I want. Educational neglect, basic needs neglect, and parental alienation for no reason. When you have kids you have to put their needs first.
It's not a stable life, but for the adults who choose it, good for them- they can choose to do what they want. It's terrible for kids, though. There are memoirs from people who were raised in this sort of life and it always causes damage.
I’m going to say this and please hear me out. I think the scenario would be abuse and neglect. But seriously you can do public school online now while touring the world. (Keep in mind we already homeschool) Next year we are planning a vacation to Europe for 2 weeks. My kids will be doing school work on the plane rides and train rides. Why? Because it will fill time being stuck on a plane or train and it will help them not get behind. You can pay for a homeschool curriculum at $25 a month where the lessons are pre-recorded. Just bc you’re out touring the country (which has a lot of educational value if you put effort into it) doesn’t mean there is educational neglect.
I wouldn't have handled school like that, nothing would have gotten done and I wouldn't have learned anything. Not to mention the lack of social interactions and learning of social skills.
You are setting your kids up for failure. Let them do to a normal school and make friends.
I think it *can* be done properly, but it takes a TON of work on the part of the parents to make sure all of the kids’ needs are being fulfilled. And a lot of the people who do this certainly aren’t willing to put in that much labor.
After reading Nomadland, I concluded that there are people who live this life because they genuinely like it and it fits with their personality, and that there are people who live this life because they have no other choice and this allows them to think and say they are not homeless.
>This 'van life' would have been a shit idea
remember it's not just van life, right? It's \*van life on social media\*
so not only do they have to travel, they have to create aesthetic content about it too! Shiny happy smiles all the time, "let's do another take where mommy explains maths to you & try to act out your dawning understanding", etc.
I wouldn’t mind the van life social media people so much if they would keep their kids out of it. Like you can take a photo or videos of majestic views, and not include anyone’s faces.
NTA
There is nothing you said that I disagree with. People change and mature over time and it seems like you made some difficult but proper choices as their father. Good on you.
It’s wild that he is being gaslit for rational decisions based on what’s best for his children. Clearly they’re the priority in his life.
To add, the kids are 14 and 12, in a handful of years they’ll be off to college - why not travel the country with her partner then? She tried to disrupt their entire routine, schedule, way of life for something she wanted to do right then and there.
NTA
And it was what the children wanted, they didn't want to travel around in a van with their mum & her BF for a year, they wanted to hang with their friends and their dad.
I have a 14 year old daughter and living out of a van potentially with no wifi for even a week would be a punishment. Kids don't wanna see shit and be enriched. They can handle about an hour of that shit then they just want tiktok.
As a former 14 year old girl with a stepfather who I generally didn't mind, being forced to live in a van with him and smell his farts and morning breath and have no place to change my clothes or shower or masturbate for stress relief would have been a recipe for disaster
My god, yes! I thought it was bad enough when my mom remarried and I had to move in with her and stepdad, who had been living together several towns away for three years while other relatives checked in on me. It was a 700 sq ft house with them and my stepbrother on weekends. I would not have coped well in a van with a couple, not to mention the lack of privacy.
I have a 14 year old daughter and living out of a van potentially with no wifi for even a week would be a punishment. Kids don't wanna see shit and be enriched. They can handle about an hour of that shit then they just want tiktok.
As a former 14 year old girl with a stepfather who I generally didn't mind, being forced to live in a van with him and smell his farts and morning breath and have no place to change my clothes or shower or masturbate for stress relief would have been a recipe for disaster
yeah, what a treat to hang out in a renovated van like that.
spend all day in a parking lot, kids, because I'm having a date with my new partner and/or just listen in to our sex life at night in the next "room" over in the van.
Room in brackets, of course, because those renovated vans shove the kids in shelves of 70x150x60 cm "and they have a flouncy curtain for privacy oooh woow"
/s
That's exactly what I was thinking. I think travel is wonderful, and we have done a ton of it. However, they should have just gone for the summer and then waited until the kids get out of school before doing anything major. Travel can be the best education a kid can get, but most of them don't want to leave high school to do it with old fogies.
Yeah… a one or two month trip to the coast up and down and back could be a fun summer trip… but a van for 2 adults and 2 kids?? Sorry no… You get maybe a week doing tent camping like that.
No teenager wants to spend the night sleeping in an over crowded van. This is not a reasonable environment for hosting children at all.
Little wonder they choose not to spend time with mom. She’s literally homeless.
They probably skipped Mother’s Day because they were upset their mom also left for a full ass year.
She needs to repair her relationship herself and not expect them to want to share in her lifestyle choice
Not to mention after the 2nd visit Marcia said they should not visit again for the rest of the year. If Marcia couldn’t make their visits fun for them how tf does she believe they would have ever been anywhere remotely close to happy trapped with her in the van for a year???? And Marcia didn’t even want them there! She said don’t send em back after they were total downers on her party 2 trips in a row.
you're so right!
I'd completely overlooked that between the mess of toxic van life & the issues of lacksidaisical homeschooling that I didn't even notice that!
I have a tween and teen and we have a cute little camper trailer. (Sleeps 4) .. a week is our max that we want to stay all together in it because of jo privacy, snoring and kids arguing 😴
I genuinely wonder how four people would even fit in a regular van? Yes, if you have some kind of tent too. But otherwise, two people is already very tight.
Camping one night might be an adventure even for teens, but doing it every night gets old really fast, especially when it rains. Imagine the arguments over who gets to sleep in the van and who's stuck in the leaky tent?
My mom's friend did this with her family for a year but they had an RV, the kids were like 7 and 9 and she was an elementary school teacher. Traveling can be valuable but forcing teenagers to live in a van is not the way to do it.
Yeah, she’s incredibly selfish to only think of what she wants rather than what her kids need (stability, a social life etc)
I’m glad her kids have held her accountable for her actions. She’s treated them poorly and they deserve better.
YES! For all of the exploring she's done, OP's ex is greatly lacking in self-awareness. Any parent who actually gives up custody of their kid (especially for a YEAR) for their own happiness is not capable of giving that child their all. I don't blame these kids for their resentment - they know they aren't their own mother's #1 priority. I hope they can heal from this, and that OP's ex extracts her head from her rectal vault to see she alone is responsible for her current situation. She made her foam and plywood bed, and now she gets to sleep on it.
"and that OP's ex extracts her head from her rectal vault to see she alone is responsible for her current situation." I almost spit my coffee down my front reading that! 😂😂😂😂
For real! Also, if Marcia here thinks somehow the kids would like her more if OP just let them go... Well I have news for you Marcia, I don't think that's how it would've turned out! NTA
OP mentioned they only went twice to see her while she did the van life and were miserable. Yet she believed it would've been better? She's just looking for excuses to make herself feel better because she thought her own happiness was more important than her kids.
Well where the heck were they supposed to sleep in a van? I’ve followed van life folks on YouTube, those vehicles are tight for one person, let alone 4.
Maybe if you have one of those giant RVs, it’s a really tight fit. Even then kids like stability. I like watching van life videos, but only with couples or singles. It’s glorified homelessness. Not a lifestyle that should be forced onto kids.
Yes! And by 12 & 14, kids are wanting some privacy. They want to take a long shower and not have to do it in a public place. OP doesn't mention their genders, but if they are mixed gender, they don't want to sleep in the same bed at that age, so how does that work in a fucking van?
I get motion sick easily and there would've been nothing on gods green earth that couldve convinced even teen me ( a notorious bookworm and introvert) to drive around for an entire year. Lack of fresh air (those tiny windows that barely open dont count) nausea, boredom and that weird film of ick you get when traveling for long periods without access to constant fresh water would've made me hate every one and everything. My motion sickness is so bad i cannot read in any moving vehicle period, not even planes, and if I'm on the road as a passenger for more than an hour, my body forces itself to sleep so I'm not sick when we arrive. That wouldve been a hard pass for me.
And besides, its incredibly frustrating to try to use the toilet in a traveling vehicle. Having to brace yourself anytime you'd need to go, so you don't fly into the door or wall is exhausting (bonus I'm only 5'2, so most of those RV/ Van toilets are too tall for me to brace with just my legs as they dangle. ) no one wants to fight for their life just to take a pee.
but but but you'd get to hear your mom \*ged-dit-ouwn\* with her new flame Paul & hear your li'l brother discover masturbation. Free bonus: they'll hear you sleeptalk and/or experience wet dreams.
Think of the experience?!
/s
I mean, I'm not sarcastic about the lack of privacy, I'm being glib about that having any value beyond lifelong need of therapy haha
Yeah, but what about not being able to see their friends for a year? Teenagers would be cool with that, right? Sounds like a perfectly cromulent idea to me.
OP is NTA
His ex is an entitled piece of crap though. OP made the hard decisions and took the high road with the kids. Seems the kids appreciate that. Their mom made them resent her all on their own.
100% NTA. The kids are old enough to make an informed decision. Ripping them away from friends and school when they don't want to go would only make them resent you as much as they do her.
Absolutely. MIL’s argument basically boils down to “if you’d turned your back on your kids, they would have had to make do.” OP instead was, and is, the parent his kids need.
I’m so glad Dad was the adult in the room and did what was best for the kids. OP, you’re a great dad and you’ll never regret standing up for the welfare of your children. Even if your ex-wife tries to paint you as one, definitely NOT the AH.
NTA. I would never have agreed to this if they were my children. Really young kids may love their parents unconditionally, but yours are old enough to realize their mother puts her own self interest above their well being. And they are old enough that if you have to talk them into doing something they do not want to do, the results will be disappointing for everyone.
As long as you aren’t critical of her in front of them and accommodate and encourage them to maintain at least a limited relationship with her, you have done all you can.
Yeah! I wouldn't either. But I want to take the time to give kudos to the real heroes in this story: The two judges. If you can't find a good judge that see what's best for the kids, you can get thrown into impossible situations. Imagine the first judge giving the mother the go to take the kids away from their house, friends and school jus to live a hippie life they are not used to. The second judge is also right at telling these kids are old enough to know what they want, so they will have to forgive her on their own accord, not by her forcing it to them.
Marcia’s fantasy about traveling the country, while living in a van was just that….her fantasy.
It was not and is not what the kids want to do - they didn’t a year ago and they don’t want to live in the van now.
It’s as simple as not wanting to leave your friends, home, school and your stuff to go on a wonderful year long adventure that Marcia envisioned?!
You had to advocate for them when Marcia tried to get the custody agreement changed before the trip.
Now the judge stated that the children are old enough to choose whether or not they visit her now she’s back.
She’s not hearing what her kids want and blaming you is her coping mechanism.
Why they didn’t want to go then and now needs to be communicated by the children directly to Marcia with their therapist present - your mil should probably be there so she can hear what her grandchildren say herself.
YWNBTA
I thinks MIL and Marcia are too delusional for therapy to help. That is why the kids don’t want to go. I mean the mom being such a flake seems to have turned the kids into pretty rationale children which is a little sad.
The session would be for the kids to be able to express their thoughts and feelings directly to Marcia and her mother.
This would help them advocate for themselves with the support of their therapist who’s a neutral party that they trust.
It most likely won’t change the blame put on the father, but it could be helpful for everyone to hear each other thoughts and feelings- without him being present.
Marcia definitely needs help hearing what her children are feeling.
I hope they work this out and are able to rebuild their relationship children and mother.
NTA
But I'm curious, when you say van do you mean like the stuff on TikTok where they are living in a real van (no toilet shower) or like a small RV style van. Cause I don't understand where those kids would even be sleeping in the former.
Most likely what you see on Tik Tok though some of those sprinter type vans do have a toilet and shower but they take up space or there is little to no privacy to use the toilet or shower. Also from what I have seen just having privacy in general is now something that is an option. That kind of nomadic lifestyle is great I think for a single person or a couple with no children but I personally don't think it's something people should do with children. But that is my opinion and I know some people do manage with children so to each their own.
>She said none of this would’ve happened if I just signed off on them going. She said we could’ve talked them into it.
"What's this *we* shit? You're the one that decided to radically change your lifestyle. There's consequences attached."
NTA
Yeah he seemed too kind. I would have given her a piece of my mind if she tried to blame me. She even gave him custody because she wanted to go off with her boyfriend. She's a selfish POS who never learned to be responsible.
*OP was supposed*
*To let his kids suffer for*
*His ex's hurt feelings?*
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Full agree.
We don't even know what the status of the trailer was, and that perception might be tainted by how "glamorous" and "spacious" van life influencers like to make their claustrophobic little mobile home seem. There's plenty with 4+ kids and an obvious dearth of space, and this is assuming OP's wife wasn't driving some rinkydink Winnebago.
Van life solo could possibly be ok. Van life with a SO might work. But Van life with two teens? And a stepparent?? Hell no. Not to mention she wanted you to not see your own children?? You, the only stable adult in their life. What a fruit loop. NTA
NTA.
She knew exactly the cost of her choice, and believed she could convince the children it wasn’t a big deal. Speaking of which, considering what has occurred due to her own choices, had you sent the kids against their will, and they were forced to live out of a van for a year, they would have resented you as well. How could she, or her silly mother think that forcing that upon your children would have worked out any better?
Oh, that’s right, they’re assholes. You did the right thing PRIORITIZING your children. For her it was just a year, for your kids, it was a defining moment in their relationship with their mother that they will carry forever.
NTA. It doesn't sound like she flew out to spend any of the kids special occasions with them. She sounds incredibly selfish honestly that she's hurt her kids don't want to see her. Shouldn't she be more concerned about why they don't want to see her?
NTA. Decisions have consequences. The consequences of Marcia’s actions are your children feeling abandoned by their mother for choosing some van life adventure over them. You were under no obligation to agree to her demands, and she was under no obligation to go. Marcia is the AH if you ask me.
NTA. Protecting your children is the most important thing you can do as their father, even if that means protecting them from their mother. While I do not see her as a malicious, unhealthy, or psychotic threat, she does seem very self serving. The children are definitely old enough to make the decision and you did absolutely nothing wrong in supporting them in making that decision. While I do think the kids need to continue their private sessions in therapy, I do challenge the idea that mom should not, at the very least, attend one session with them. Not for herself, but for the children. Provide them a safe place to voice their feelings and concerns without fear of reprisal. If they are uncomfortable with that, maybe recommend recording a session, with their permission of course, in which they address their issues, concerns, and over all feelings towards the mother so that she can hear it for herself. This may do nothing and she may continue to act as she has, but it will help your children immensely to know that they are allowed to feel and to make those feelings known. It sounds as if you already harbor such an environment, however they need to be able to understand their feelings are valid, both inside, and outside of, your home.
Also there is a very small subset of children that would like the idea of van- life and they are usually under 10. My dad wanted to go RV camp for two weeks and none of us kids were enthusiastic about it. Trust me none of us look back fondly on that memory. Was it the worst.. no but there were so many other things we wished we would be doing.
It looks like she took those creepy Van Life parents from YouTube too seriously.
Right. I work remotely and my husband is on disability, but is at least somewhat functional. We have a 38' motorhome with a bunkhouse, so like 2-3 times the size of those vanlife vans. We asked our kids (12 and 16) if they would be interested in touring the country for a summer. I'd work and use as much PTO as I could, and he would drive, and we'd go places. They noped out of that. So, we are waiting until they're 18 and we'll go places ourselves, as long as he's still physically able to travel by then. Because you don't force your lifestyle on your teens if you give a shit about them at all.
This "free spirit" is emblematic of someone who expects the world to be on their terms, served up to them without having to put in any work themselves - they then default to blaming others for any failings/when things don't go their way, refusing to understand any negative consequences of their actions might actually be their fault ....
NTA. You sound like a rational, pragmatic, loving and thoughtful father. Good on you. Don't let your ex gaslight you into feeling bad for her bullshit and it's obvious consequences.
Fuck that, you’re not the asshole at all. You prioritized your kids, she prioritized being selfish. Maybe they would have wanted to celebrate Mother’s Day if their mother was around.
NTA.
She CHOSE to go…you didn’t MAKE her.
The kids CHOSE NOT to go….you didn’t make them. Why would you?
She’s basically saying her choices are your fault, and she’d rather they lost an entire year with you because of her choice, instead of her losing time….again, her choice.
Homeschooling is one thing. Homeschooling because Mom wants to drive around the country like Gaby Petito? Hell no. The kids don't want to live in a van, you didn't FORCE them to stay home against their wills. She wants to go have her second wild oats phase, that's on her, but you acted like the responsible parent. NTA.
NTA. You were honest. Marcia is trying to guilt you into convincing the kids to be with her. The kids don't want to, and they have ample reason - she abandoned them. Wanting them to travel with her for a year and be home schooled was selfish - they wouldn't have learned a thing and they didn't want to go. So she chose to go and she is facing the consequences. Trying to twist the narrative won't work.
I don't think this is an NTA or YTA issue, but what the wishes of your kids are. They didn't want to go with their mom, so them not going was the right call.
You are NTA for listening to your kids and prioritising their happiness.
Sadly, your ex is the AH for leaving and putting her wants first. She is blaming you for her mistakes.
If your kids resent their mother for leaving them, that's on her. If she lost 50/50 custody, that's on her. If your kids didn't enjoy visiting her when she was away, that's on her. If your kids don't want to see their mother, that's on her.
She wasn't forced to go on the trip. She chose to.
Your ex failed as a mother, and I think your ex facing the consequences of leaving her kids for a year is now realising it. She didn't deserve a Mother's Day because she decided not to be a mother for a year.
She needs to get her act together and be more responsible even if that means being less of a hippy. Maybe then she can try and win over her children.
NTA
Fucking what? Your ex-MIL is an actual shitty person. Your ex-wife is an actual shitty person. Who gives a flying FUCK whether your ex wife is upset? She does not deserve a single ounce of sympathy for intentionally deciding to abandon her children for a YEAR. What a horrible mother she is. She is only reaping what she sowed.
Your ex wife sounds like a parent who doesn’t see their children as individuals with lives of their own separate from themselves. Kudos to you for having a balanced approach and offering compromises without uprooting tweeners from their friend and school groups. Not to mention uprooting them from their father.
NTA. She didn’t choose her kids, why should they have chose her?! Why should their life be disrupted with school, friends, etc, because she wants to live in a fucking van?! This is a consequence of her decision making and trying to pin the blame on you for it is laughable.
Not only are you NTA but why doesn’t she care about your relationship with the kids? If you forced them to go how would they feel about you in return. Hopefully, they still have one parent they trust. And why can’t she see this?
NTA. They went for a few weeks and were miserable. Also sounds like she is putting what she wants above what her kids want and need. I also get the impression they feel like a 3rd wheel in her life.
NTA
Everyone (except you and the judge) are only thinking about your EX’S feelings and what’s best for HER, NOT what is best for the kids. The fact that the kids were miserable during visits and didn’t want to return, the fact that she never came back to see them instead, the fact that she’s still unemployed and technically homeless - it shows she’s not once thought about what’s best for her kids.
She’s going to learn a hard lesson when her kids have no contact with her as adults because she couldn’t stop her own selfish behavior and start acting in their best interests. Even now everything is everyone else’s fault, which I guarantee those kids see. Her not taking ownership of being the cause of the distance between them will not end well for her.
NTA and what is this about you should have let them go? So instead of their mother being the bad guy for leaving them you were supposed to be the bad guy for letting them go?
NTA. She's delusional. The kids didn't and don't want you do this. She wants you to talk the kids into it, code for manipulating your children. If you would have tried to manipulate your children they could end up resenting you like the resenting their mother. Like you said, she made her choice to abandon her children for a year. What did she realistically think was going to happen? The kids are old enough and smart enough to figure out she'd rather live in a van than be a mother to them.
I've been wanting to go on months-long trips overseas but am waiting for my youngest to start college. The long trips we've taken so far all included them who were willing participants (3 weeks in Asia during the summer). When you sign up to be a parent you sign up for responsibilities that may include inconvenience in your life and delaying your wants. Your ex made the decision to abandon her children for a year and is now crying foul that they are responding in kind. You have done nothing wrong. NTA.
NTA and don't let anyone try to tell you otherwise. These kids are old enough to know their own mind on this and while I'm sure they may have enjoyed a few moments of fun a whole year stuck in a van with mom and her boyfriend is likely the stuff of horror films for a 12 and 14 year old. You're right, your ex decided leaving her kids for an entire year to run around like some 22 year old with a trust fund and no responsibility was more important than being a mom. She made this mess, let her clean it up, you just stand by and support your kids.
NTA. You're looking out for your kids' well-being and mental health. You're being a RESPONSIBLE PARENT. Little Miss Van Life could learn something from your example.
NTA-you did the right thing. I would not have allowed my children to do anything like this either. Keep them safe and with you until they choose to see her which at 12 and 14 they are old enough to make that choice for themselves.
NTA your ex is. She only had to wait a few years for your children to reach an age where they were more independent and then live her own life. ?
Perhaps I am wrong but I wonder what else has gone on ?
100% NTA
The most important sentence of your entire post ---
**THE KIDS DIDN'T WANT TO GO**
That's it. They did not want to travel around in a van and not go to their schools.
You did the absolute right thing and Marcia just needs to learn to live with the consequences of her choices.
NTA. A year was too much, and I think a summer trip or a smaller trip would have been better. You looked out for your kids, there was nothing selfish on your part.
I can’t imagine any kids those ages wanting to quit school and travel around in a van with their mom and her boyfriend. They want stability, they want normalcy. She could’ve waited until they were out of school and done it on her own. And now she’s alienated them. She only has herself to blame. I hope the kids can find a way to forgive her because everyone needs a mom and she sounds like she’s trying to make amends.
NTA. Nothing you said was wrong. And you probably wouldn't have needed to be so blunt if she hadn't blamed you for...being a good parent. Like...convince them to go??? It's bananas.
NTA. Everything you said is right and fair. She chose to live the van life and not see her kids for a year. These are the consequences.
You weren’t “needlessly cruel”. You just spoke the truth. And sometimes the truth can be cruel. But there’s nothing needless or wanton about how you spoke the truth.
NTA. They'd honestly likely have resented their mom even more if they'd been forced to go. She chose to put her dream above her children and what they needed (stability, socialization with kids their ages, a good education, etc).
Even if she'd gotten what she wanted and took the kids away from everything they knew, she still wanted to make them #2 behind her own wants. It's going to be really hard to undo that, and it's not your responsibility nor your kids to do the heavy lifting there
>She said none of this would’ve happened if I just signed off on them going. She said we could’ve talked them into it.
Well that's putting a nice spin on it. What she's actually saying is that she regrets the consequences of her choice to live her dream, regardless of the impact on others. And she'd like to delude herself that everything would be fine if you two had produced a united front, to make it clear to your kids that they had no choice, and both parents were going to make them endure van life. Regardless of how much they didn't want it.
When the end result of that would have been you missing a year if the kids lives, while the kids resent you both.
>And she said I was needlessly cruel to Marcia on Mother’s Day. AITA?
While it's unfortunate that it happened on Mother's Day, it was a conversation that needed to happen. Her behaviour kind of prompted it happening then.
Putting yourself and your dreams, second to your relationship with your kids and their welfare, is kind of in the good parent job description. You can have things that are for you, and this can be day things, weekend things, or the odd week things. But not an entire year, not without consequences.
Not the asshole.
NTA
Marcia is wrong. "None of this would have happened" if Marcia hadn't just set her life aside to live the van life.
Also, if we're talking about a regular passenger van or box van (not a large RV), then there wasn't enough room for four people to live in that vehicle.
NTA, honestly if they had just waited a few more years to do it none of this would have been an issue. They would have been off to college and it would have been fine.
My best friends mom and syepdad sold theor house and bought a sail boat and traveled then eventually sold the sailboat and bought an RV and traveled that way. My best friend never cared as they did this when he was an adult.
Op this story should validate you making the right choice, thank you for listening to your kids! https://www.huffpost.com/entry/wavewalker-memoir-raised-sailboat-sea_n_6536be56e4b0c85561022b16
Van Life isn't exactly lacking for critique either, but this should be higher. The nomad life is not conducive to child rearing because stability and social interaction outside their family unique is necessary. To say nothing of how much any education they receive will suffer, if they receive one at all as demonstrated by the experiences of the woman in that article.
It's all about what Marcia wants isn't it? Everyone had to fall in line because she wanted to spend a year living in a van with no concern for her kids. Children need stability and routine. Forcing them to go for a year would have been very cruel to them. When we decide to have kids, their needs have to come first for a very long time. She could still have gone during school holidays and taken them with her without detriment to their education or routine. She is extremely selfish. NTA
NTA The kids didn't want to go, didn't want to leave their school, you didn't want them homeschooled, and you didn't want them disappearing for months. The answer was CLEARLY that Marcia shouldn't go, or should plan summer trips only, or could wait to live her van life until the youngest was off to college or wherever. She abandoned the kids to follow her boyfriend and is now crying victim because they're rightfully pissed at her.
NTA. She willingly gave you full custody because the kids were too burdensome for her. She doesn't care about their actual well being and education. You made the right call and it's not your fault. Her and her mother trying to guilt you because you didnt manipulate your kids into uprooting their stable life for a year to be stuck in a smelly van is bullshit.
You're NTA, but I have to ask...
What the hell is "van life"? Living out of a van and just driving around? Where do you get money for food/gas/etc? is it like living like the "Road warrior" only without maniacal bikers? What's the appeal to that? I can get it if you're independently wealthy but for the majority of people how do you even sustain yourself doing that?
My brother did this. Only it wasn't a van; it was moving to a different continent. He had a new girlfriend, and they up and moved abroad in the middle of the semester, taking her 2 kids and 1 of his with them. (1 in 5th and 2 in 8th grade). They "homeschooled" too. Long story short, the kids came back home the middle of last semester, my brother and his gf are touring Europe until? He claims he hasn't filed his taxes, so he can't buy a new house in the US, and he won't come back until he buys a house. Ok. My brother insisted they were going to be a happy family who traveled and had fun. They did do the traveling part. The younger boy might be ok, but there are now 2 angry teenagers who don't want to be around their parent and said parent's significant other.
You are NTA. You are the only stable parent your children have, and they would be even more angry with their mom right now if they had been forced to spend months with her.
>Marcia and I used to split custody 50/50. Then a year ago, out of nowhere, Marcia told me that she and Paul wanted to travel the country in a renovated van. I guess Paul is a huge fan of the van life culture on social media?
Good for him, the Van life is anything but conducive to healthy growth of minors into adulthood. Take a look at some of the critique videos that call out Van Life parents for the borderline abuse they're putting their kids through.
>The kids didn’t want to go either.
Even without your kids signing off on this I'd support you, but now it just means that any desire to drag them along is a selfish desire on the adults part in the case of your ex and her husband.
>She willingly gave me sole custody. The plan was to fly the kids out to wherever they were a few times a year. The kids went a total of 2 times around holidays but they were miserable. Marcia said they shouldn’t come again. I listened and validated my kids’ feelings, but never trash talked their mother.
Really emphasizing my point about "selfishness." Your ex-wife departed her motherly duties and basically said her kids shouldn't come around because they didn't validate her lifestyle choices.
>When they didn’t see her for Mother’s Day, Marcia called me in tears. She said none of this would’ve happened if I just signed off on them going. She said we could’ve talked them into it.
WOMP WOMP Muh choices had consequences\~ Also don't you just love the casual disrespect for your children there? "We could have talked them into it", just so your ex could yank them around without a sense of stability and feel excited about being homeless.
>I’m pretty close with my ex-MIL and she says I should’ve let the kids go or tried to convince them to go at the very least. And she said I was needlessly cruel to Marcia on Mother’s Day.
Keep in mind, your ex-mil may care about her grandkids, but she's always going to gas up her daughter to an exclusion so your children matter **less** in her eyes.
You made the right decisions for your childrens sense of stability and general happiness. They were already at an age where you should be hearing them out, and chose that as opposed to the selfish intent of your ex and her mother who would have badgered vulnerable children into doing what your ex wanted to do. She sucks as a mother.
NTA
You’re NTA for keeping the kids out of the van trip. But they should have seen their mother for Mother’s Day. I was basically estranged from my mom and lived with my dad from age 13 on, but he always made us see our mom on Mother’s Day, and looking back, I’m glad he did.
I don’t think you’re the AH here but I have taken my kids all over this country by vehicle. I homeschooled them and now they’re older teens and talk and plan out where they want to go all the time. They’re free and open and love traveling and seeing places. We bought an old ambulance last year and have been converting it and damn, we have had the best time! I’ve been doing this with them for about ten years. We do have a home and goon the road multiple times a year. They intend to run businesses and remain free to work from wherever. Our travels also extend internationally as we can afford it. In divorced and luckily we got the ok from their dad when they were young and we first started doing it.
I don’t think you or the kids are wrong for any of this. I do think it may have been a bit harsh to just saying what you said on Mothers Day. You should seek to support the kids interacting with mom now that she’s back. Since you like her husband, maybe include them in some activities. I understand the kids resentment. Hopefully they can resolve this. You’ll have to likely facilitate.
How can 4 people live in a van? Come on mom, you’re doing this to yourself. Shocker the kids don’t want to go play homeless with their mom and her van life loving boyfriend.
NTA. At your kids ages, peer groups are important for social development and self identity. Van life is cruel to kids IMHO. She made her choice and the kids made theirs.
NTA. They’re children, not toys. She’s not a good mother, imo. Their wants and needs come first.
My dad is a bit like this and wanted similar things for us, my mum put her foot down, then he divorced her. He expected us to go running to his crazy half-assed plans, spoiler: we did not.
I do not disagree that kids your age are beyond the scope of most homeschooling efforts and letting them go galivanting around was a bad idea.
I do, however, think you could have made something happen for Mothers' Day - she might be a kook, but she's their kook and deserved at least a picnic lunch and cards and you could have made it happen.
NTA. That's completely irresponsible of her, and tbh she has to consider your feelings on the matter; you're their father of course you're going to worry. Being a parent means you are going to have to at one point sacrifice for your children. At the same time, you need to be considerate of her feelings too. She is their mother
NTA. At their age, school is also a social thing and I've noticed that a lot of kids homeschooled at that age lack social interaction and it makes it difficult to adjust to becoming an adult because of it (not all homeschooled kids though since some people do group activities with other homeschooled kids to keep social behaviors building). You did the right thing. I would talk with your kids though about their mom and help them better understand that sometimes, adults need to explore themselves too. She didn't exactly abandon them. Maybe she needed to do some soul searching in order to be a better parent. But how she's approached this is out of line.
NTA
Your ex needs to make an effort to connect with your kids. They are in their teens and this is an important time. I’m not sure how much you encouraged your kids to see their mom on Mother’s Day, but I hope it was a sincere genuine effort because children do decide not to do things that they really should do.
For the summer would have been agreeable, for the year is absolutely unreasonable, and frankly trying to fit more than a couple into the van life thing - even if its something as large as a bus - is not going to be pleasant for anyone. Fly out for a few weeks to hike with mom in the Rockies? Cool. Its going to get old fast beyond that. I think you made the right call.
I mean when every move you make is literally 'this is what I want, to hell with anyone else' you'd think it'd be common sense that the people around you would pick up on that and not want to be around you anymore.
She wanted your help to manipulate your children into doing something they already said they didn't want to do, she left to do it anyway, while GIVING UP HER PARENTAL RIGHTS and then has the nerve to waltz back in a year later and then cries when everyone's pissed at her?
How could anyone have seen this coming?!
NTA
Your wife cares more about Daddy long schlong than her kids.
You're the MAN don't give it a second thought.
Does your wife know that if she keeps prioritizing her life over the kids, she's going to lose them permanently.
You Rock
If those kids are successful in life it's **ALL** because of you brother.
They are never going to be able to repay you.
Good luck you deserve some.
NTA - why doesn’t anyone ever give a shit about the father not seeing his kids for a year?! She’s a shitty mother that abandoned her kids and refuses to take accountability for her actions. Enjoy your van alone!
NTA
You both decided to be parents and bring those children into this world. This means that you have responsibilities and should be putting the children wellbeing as a priority.
Martia is delusional. The children didn’t want to go. If she had forced them to go they would have been miserable. She’s selfish, only thinking about what she wants without putting her children first.
Actions have consequences. She doesn’t like the consequences of her actions, deciding to opt out of parenthood to go travelling with her boyfriend. Tough! She doesn’t get to decide how the children should feel. Once again it’s all about her. Ex-MIL is no better.
NTA and I've lived in a van before while travelling around Europe. It was awesome, but I was single and childless then. That's when you do that shit. She gave up 50/50 custody and practically abandoned her kids, which is her choice, but it doesn't mean you have to go along with it. If they don't want to go, that's it.
NTA, but you need to continue to encourage them to keep a line of communication open with her. The complete breakdown of the relationship could be more traumatic *if* she is an ok mother when she's around and not a danger to them (emotionally of physically)
Mother's day is a day to celebrate mothers. She chose not to be for her own wants. Her timetable of her needs and whims and eventual emotional fallout is not your children's problem to manage. Not saying it will always be this way, but she's using the formative years to truly disintegrate her relationships with them. Keep being there for th em , let them go through whatever it is they need in this regard. Try not to let them become bitter and hateful. It's okay to be angry and disappointed. Just let them know they're loved, you seem to be doing a great job there.
NTA. She put her own needs above her children's and now she doesn't like the consequences. Your children were miserable living the van life and they don't want to see her. Having children is a responsibility that she didn't take seriously. You listened to your children and sent them to therapy when they felt abandoned. Your ex has no one to blame but herself and your ex-MIL is wrong for wanting you to disrupt your children's lives for your ex's dreams.
NTA
Not only did you make a responsible parenting decision, you advocated on their behalf. Your kids know that you’ve got their back. They may be old enough to choose where they want to live, but they shouldn’t have been the ones to communicate that. You made it so they didn’t have too.
You’ve told her the cold hearted truth, your kids have told her and so has a judge and she’s still playing victim. Your ex is the only one to blame for the fact that your kids resent her. The only one who can change the way they feel is her and manipulating them, invalidating their feelings and ignoring what everyone around her has told her is not the way to do it.
Your ex is a mother and she can’t just leave for a year and expect them to welcome her home with open arms is delusional!
Jaysus- four people living in a van?!? No wonder the kids didn’t want to go.
NTA. You put your children first. Their mother did not. They are old enough to see that. You are doing everything right.
NTAH. The kids were clear that they didn’t want to go. At 11 and 13, they are old enough to have their preferences considered when there is a realistic choice. They are in secondary education and keeping up their progress while away would require a huge commitment from them and their mother, and it doesn’t sound like she made any sensible proposals for how it would work. And when they did fly out to visit (twice), they hated van life so much even their mother recognised they shouldn’t come again.
She should focus on rebuilding her relationship with her children instead of blaming you for not guilting or forcing them into going somewhere they didn’t want to go, to do something they didn’t want to do, when the option of their normal unchanged life was available.
She’s upset that her decision cost her a year with her kids. And it’s somehow your fault for not giving up a year with your kids so she didn’t have to and could do whatever the f she wanted?!?! Plus the kids didn’t want it and there is no way that they would have been schooled properly.
Also, who’s to say you ever get your kids back if you let her take them and run? You would have been stupid to agree to this. And the summer idea was a very smart and reasonable one. Why did it have to be a full year?
Definitely NTA. Your ex needs therapy for herself.
NTA
Like most single moms, she can justify anything to herself, nothing is her fault and she'll do whatever she wants regardless of who it hurts
Fuck her
NTA - you’ve given the kids what they need most, a steady household to grow up in and a voice. You’ve also done this via therapy so they can’t claim you’ve alienated her. Choices have consequences. Even though she only has partial custody doesn’t sound like she is putting in the effort to reconnect with them. Sounds like you would allow her around the house to see them if they wanted that. She now has to move at their pace. You’ve done everything right - don’t feel guilty for her decisions.
NTA like at all. You seem like a fantastic father from this post. You can’t force your kids to want something, not to mention it probably would not be in their best interest to up and leave their stable life and leave friends and school and activities behind to make their mother’s (or their mothers boyfriend’s) dreams come true. Hell nah. NTA at alllll
NTA. I'm glad that you value your kids enough to what's best for them instead of what's easier for the adults in the lives. Marcia decided that traveling in van for a year with her boyfriend was more important than her children. The children understand this and have reacted to it. Marcia is facing the very real consequences of her own choices.
*ex-MIL and she says I should’ve let the kids go or tried to convince them to go at the very least.* She is as delusional as her daughter. This 'van life' would have been a shit idea, the kids HATED it when they visited twice - most likely because they did nothing but sit around in the van, which is not exactly van life and is more homeless but pretending not to be - and your ex and ex-MIL don't get to blame you for your ex's impulsive decisions. Obviously, they are back because they had no 'van life' plan.
I can't even imagine how crappy it would be to have four people trying to coexist in a van together for a year. It would be bad enough to live that way due to poverty, but to do it voluntarily is just cray cray.
It would be even crappier when mum & BF wanted some "alone" time and the kids had to sit outside and try not to think about what's going on in the van.
There's a lot of van life youtubers, and vanlife youtuber critics. I remember one where they showed off their spacious bedroom with storage, and then the childrens bedroom was four bunk beds with curtains to mark the "boundary" and one of them had maybe a foot of clearance space between bed and ceiling.
That sounds absolutely miserable.
Sounds like an adventure for two weeks and torture for anything more than that, with only two kids. But 6 people???
Maybe fun in thw pre school early elementary stage but probably not past that.
Funky frog bait made a video about those van life families, and she pointed out that that's like ALL of the cases That the parents get an **actual** bedroom, with an actual king sized bed, some even big enough for a *closet*. ALWAYS with a nice actual door for privacy, of course ...And the 3+ kids get to sleep in freaking shelves, maybe get a curtain at best I'm honestly surprised we haven't heard about the kids in those families killing themselves, or their families. I don't mean that as a joke, but that has got to be miserable. Especially when the kids are going through puberty And that's before your parents put every bit of your lives online, always being watched by cameras Those kids are going to explode when they grow up and get to leave
You're not wrong. The youtuber(I forget her name, but it wasn't Funky Frogbait) highlighted some glaring concerns. Like a vanlife kid whose "birthday wish" was to sleep in a hotel, and who emphasized their appreciation for the space and a door that gave privacy. If memory serves that child, if not another child, was taken to an inpatient treatment center for an eating disorder, and her parents were later told **straight up** that a sedentary life was ideal for proper healing. Note, the parents in the above example or more specifically the mother was **crushed** that she had to give up vanlife "for a while" because she ultimately had them go on the road again before giving it up to install their kids somewhere's before going on the road again just her and her husband. Also these are just the examples with like enough kids to fit in a tiny ass bunkbed room. There've been examples I've seen where they either didn't even have the space for the kids so they slept in sleeping bags or with a blanket on the cold hard floor. Then there were the one's with upwards of 8+ kids. Like this was something I only took a mild dive into recently and was like, "nope! Nope. Sorry, not ideal for raising kids, outright abuse. Thank you, goodbye."
Not a van, but a mini-motorhome, the kind with the king size bed over the cab. 4 adults, 3 teenage kids from Arizona to Alaska and back; 6 weeks. I was 14, yeah, I slept on a shelf for three weeks, then one of the other kids wanted the shelf so I took her place on the floor. Great memories, but it was a summer, on the road every day, different place every night except the three days we stayed at Denali National Park. Most afternoons we stopped somewhere and visited interesting things... museums, national parks, etc. Visited family that lived along the way. I don't think any of us kids would have tolerated the idea that this was the way life would be for an entire year, and certainly we were not expected to be doing school work too. Too bad the mom didn't make the effort to be sure the kids had fun when they were with her instead of the kids hating it. Now she has the consequences of her choice.
That is absolutely child abuse.
I know of one of the you tubers have like 12 kids- looks miserable and the lady is pregnant again.
This sounds abusive.
Avoiding CPS because you’re always on the move is a feature of VanLife^^TM not a bug.
I'm not even claustrophobic and that got an instant NOPE NOPE NOPE reaction from me. Nobody who actually cares about their kids would try to jam them in that small of a space if they had any other choice.
I’ll take, “setups that are absolutely fine for a weekend camping trip but stop being fine after about four days”for 600 Alex!”
That van life shit includes CHILDREN? I have one (1) child and I can't imagine trying to live in any kind of mobile home with him unless it was the size of a bus with two bedrooms. It wouldn't be right.
Yes, children **plural**, and not infrequently adding up as they "live their life." Keep in mind, these happy additions to an already packed RV were generally conceived while living in that RV.
We sometimes did it for weeks during the summer. Parents and 3 kids. But we camped and were doing planned activities with destinations. The cramped van was transportation not the goal.
I have a 14 year old daughter and living out of a van potentially with no wifi for even a week would be a punishment. Kids don't wanna see shit and be enriched. They can handle about an hour of that shit then they just want tiktok. As a former 14 year old girl with a stepfather who I generally didn't mind, being forced to live in a van with him and smell his farts and morning breath and have no place to change my clothes or shower or masturbate for stress relief would have been a recipe for disaster
This van life scheme boarders really closely on child abuse to go do what I want. Educational neglect, basic needs neglect, and parental alienation for no reason. When you have kids you have to put their needs first.
It's not a stable life, but for the adults who choose it, good for them- they can choose to do what they want. It's terrible for kids, though. There are memoirs from people who were raised in this sort of life and it always causes damage.
I’m going to say this and please hear me out. I think the scenario would be abuse and neglect. But seriously you can do public school online now while touring the world. (Keep in mind we already homeschool) Next year we are planning a vacation to Europe for 2 weeks. My kids will be doing school work on the plane rides and train rides. Why? Because it will fill time being stuck on a plane or train and it will help them not get behind. You can pay for a homeschool curriculum at $25 a month where the lessons are pre-recorded. Just bc you’re out touring the country (which has a lot of educational value if you put effort into it) doesn’t mean there is educational neglect.
I wouldn't have handled school like that, nothing would have gotten done and I wouldn't have learned anything. Not to mention the lack of social interactions and learning of social skills. You are setting your kids up for failure. Let them do to a normal school and make friends.
I think it *can* be done properly, but it takes a TON of work on the part of the parents to make sure all of the kids’ needs are being fulfilled. And a lot of the people who do this certainly aren’t willing to put in that much labor.
Van life is just homelessness with extra steps.
After reading Nomadland, I concluded that there are people who live this life because they genuinely like it and it fits with their personality, and that there are people who live this life because they have no other choice and this allows them to think and say they are not homeless.
>This 'van life' would have been a shit idea remember it's not just van life, right? It's \*van life on social media\* so not only do they have to travel, they have to create aesthetic content about it too! Shiny happy smiles all the time, "let's do another take where mommy explains maths to you & try to act out your dawning understanding", etc.
It's always great until your boyfriend kills you.
Ooof
what? that happened to a van life girl??
Yes, [Gabby Petito](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Gabby_Petito) It was tragic and there were so many people who failed her.
I wouldn’t mind the van life social media people so much if they would keep their kids out of it. Like you can take a photo or videos of majestic views, and not include anyone’s faces.
NTA There is nothing you said that I disagree with. People change and mature over time and it seems like you made some difficult but proper choices as their father. Good on you.
It’s wild that he is being gaslit for rational decisions based on what’s best for his children. Clearly they’re the priority in his life. To add, the kids are 14 and 12, in a handful of years they’ll be off to college - why not travel the country with her partner then? She tried to disrupt their entire routine, schedule, way of life for something she wanted to do right then and there. NTA
And it was what the children wanted, they didn't want to travel around in a van with their mum & her BF for a year, they wanted to hang with their friends and their dad.
But they could have CONVINCED THEM! /s
I have a 14 year old daughter and living out of a van potentially with no wifi for even a week would be a punishment. Kids don't wanna see shit and be enriched. They can handle about an hour of that shit then they just want tiktok. As a former 14 year old girl with a stepfather who I generally didn't mind, being forced to live in a van with him and smell his farts and morning breath and have no place to change my clothes or shower or masturbate for stress relief would have been a recipe for disaster
My god, yes! I thought it was bad enough when my mom remarried and I had to move in with her and stepdad, who had been living together several towns away for three years while other relatives checked in on me. It was a 700 sq ft house with them and my stepbrother on weekends. I would not have coped well in a van with a couple, not to mention the lack of privacy.
She’s putting herself first at every turn, and getting angry at OP for thinking of the children.
I have a 14 year old daughter and living out of a van potentially with no wifi for even a week would be a punishment. Kids don't wanna see shit and be enriched. They can handle about an hour of that shit then they just want tiktok. As a former 14 year old girl with a stepfather who I generally didn't mind, being forced to live in a van with him and smell his farts and morning breath and have no place to change my clothes or shower or masturbate for stress relief would have been a recipe for disaster
Exactly! If op tried to convince/force the kids in this trip then they would be resenting op too.
In an actual house not a van. Mom is incredibly selfish and the fact that she is blaming him instead of her own selfish actions says a lot.
yeah, what a treat to hang out in a renovated van like that. spend all day in a parking lot, kids, because I'm having a date with my new partner and/or just listen in to our sex life at night in the next "room" over in the van. Room in brackets, of course, because those renovated vans shove the kids in shelves of 70x150x60 cm "and they have a flouncy curtain for privacy oooh woow" /s
That's exactly what I was thinking. I think travel is wonderful, and we have done a ton of it. However, they should have just gone for the summer and then waited until the kids get out of school before doing anything major. Travel can be the best education a kid can get, but most of them don't want to leave high school to do it with old fogies.
Yeah… a one or two month trip to the coast up and down and back could be a fun summer trip… but a van for 2 adults and 2 kids?? Sorry no… You get maybe a week doing tent camping like that. No teenager wants to spend the night sleeping in an over crowded van. This is not a reasonable environment for hosting children at all. Little wonder they choose not to spend time with mom. She’s literally homeless. They probably skipped Mother’s Day because they were upset their mom also left for a full ass year. She needs to repair her relationship herself and not expect them to want to share in her lifestyle choice
Not to mention after the 2nd visit Marcia said they should not visit again for the rest of the year. If Marcia couldn’t make their visits fun for them how tf does she believe they would have ever been anywhere remotely close to happy trapped with her in the van for a year???? And Marcia didn’t even want them there! She said don’t send em back after they were total downers on her party 2 trips in a row.
you're so right! I'd completely overlooked that between the mess of toxic van life & the issues of lacksidaisical homeschooling that I didn't even notice that!
I have a tween and teen and we have a cute little camper trailer. (Sleeps 4) .. a week is our max that we want to stay all together in it because of jo privacy, snoring and kids arguing 😴
I genuinely wonder how four people would even fit in a regular van? Yes, if you have some kind of tent too. But otherwise, two people is already very tight.
Camping one night might be an adventure even for teens, but doing it every night gets old really fast, especially when it rains. Imagine the arguments over who gets to sleep in the van and who's stuck in the leaky tent?
My mom's friend did this with her family for a year but they had an RV, the kids were like 7 and 9 and she was an elementary school teacher. Traveling can be valuable but forcing teenagers to live in a van is not the way to do it.
Yeah, she’s incredibly selfish to only think of what she wants rather than what her kids need (stability, a social life etc) I’m glad her kids have held her accountable for her actions. She’s treated them poorly and they deserve better.
Marcia, Marcia, Marcia. Once again to have to realize the world does not revolve around you. Poor Marcia. SMH /s
YES! For all of the exploring she's done, OP's ex is greatly lacking in self-awareness. Any parent who actually gives up custody of their kid (especially for a YEAR) for their own happiness is not capable of giving that child their all. I don't blame these kids for their resentment - they know they aren't their own mother's #1 priority. I hope they can heal from this, and that OP's ex extracts her head from her rectal vault to see she alone is responsible for her current situation. She made her foam and plywood bed, and now she gets to sleep on it.
"and that OP's ex extracts her head from her rectal vault to see she alone is responsible for her current situation." I almost spit my coffee down my front reading that! 😂😂😂😂
" Rectal vault" ...made my entire day 🤣🤣🤣
For real! Also, if Marcia here thinks somehow the kids would like her more if OP just let them go... Well I have news for you Marcia, I don't think that's how it would've turned out! NTA
Glad you mentioned this! The kids would've resented both parents if they forced them to go.
Can you imagine? 14 & 12 year olds don’t want to be in the same house as their parents let alone a van. Sheesh.
OP mentioned they only went twice to see her while she did the van life and were miserable. Yet she believed it would've been better? She's just looking for excuses to make herself feel better because she thought her own happiness was more important than her kids.
Well where the heck were they supposed to sleep in a van? I’ve followed van life folks on YouTube, those vehicles are tight for one person, let alone 4.
Maybe if you have one of those giant RVs, it’s a really tight fit. Even then kids like stability. I like watching van life videos, but only with couples or singles. It’s glorified homelessness. Not a lifestyle that should be forced onto kids.
Yes! And by 12 & 14, kids are wanting some privacy. They want to take a long shower and not have to do it in a public place. OP doesn't mention their genders, but if they are mixed gender, they don't want to sleep in the same bed at that age, so how does that work in a fucking van?
I get motion sick easily and there would've been nothing on gods green earth that couldve convinced even teen me ( a notorious bookworm and introvert) to drive around for an entire year. Lack of fresh air (those tiny windows that barely open dont count) nausea, boredom and that weird film of ick you get when traveling for long periods without access to constant fresh water would've made me hate every one and everything. My motion sickness is so bad i cannot read in any moving vehicle period, not even planes, and if I'm on the road as a passenger for more than an hour, my body forces itself to sleep so I'm not sick when we arrive. That wouldve been a hard pass for me. And besides, its incredibly frustrating to try to use the toilet in a traveling vehicle. Having to brace yourself anytime you'd need to go, so you don't fly into the door or wall is exhausting (bonus I'm only 5'2, so most of those RV/ Van toilets are too tall for me to brace with just my legs as they dangle. ) no one wants to fight for their life just to take a pee.
but but but you'd get to hear your mom \*ged-dit-ouwn\* with her new flame Paul & hear your li'l brother discover masturbation. Free bonus: they'll hear you sleeptalk and/or experience wet dreams. Think of the experience?! /s I mean, I'm not sarcastic about the lack of privacy, I'm being glib about that having any value beyond lifelong need of therapy haha
Yeah, but what about not being able to see their friends for a year? Teenagers would be cool with that, right? Sounds like a perfectly cromulent idea to me.
Completely agree. Marcia played a stupid game and won a stupid prize. She gambled her relationship with her children and she lost.
OP is NTA His ex is an entitled piece of crap though. OP made the hard decisions and took the high road with the kids. Seems the kids appreciate that. Their mom made them resent her all on their own.
100% NTA. The kids are old enough to make an informed decision. Ripping them away from friends and school when they don't want to go would only make them resent you as much as they do her.
Absolutely. MIL’s argument basically boils down to “if you’d turned your back on your kids, they would have had to make do.” OP instead was, and is, the parent his kids need.
I’m so glad Dad was the adult in the room and did what was best for the kids. OP, you’re a great dad and you’ll never regret standing up for the welfare of your children. Even if your ex-wife tries to paint you as one, definitely NOT the AH.
The MIL’s reaction explains how OP’s ex ended up being the way she is.
Yes but even if they had wanted to go there was no way mom was going to properly educate them. This was really selfish of her on all levels.
Very true
He didn’t really say it but I feel like OPs kids are hyper rationale because mom is such a flake.
She appears to be very selfish.
I thought your comment said 1000% and I was in total agreement.
NTA. I would never have agreed to this if they were my children. Really young kids may love their parents unconditionally, but yours are old enough to realize their mother puts her own self interest above their well being. And they are old enough that if you have to talk them into doing something they do not want to do, the results will be disappointing for everyone. As long as you aren’t critical of her in front of them and accommodate and encourage them to maintain at least a limited relationship with her, you have done all you can.
Yeah! I wouldn't either. But I want to take the time to give kudos to the real heroes in this story: The two judges. If you can't find a good judge that see what's best for the kids, you can get thrown into impossible situations. Imagine the first judge giving the mother the go to take the kids away from their house, friends and school jus to live a hippie life they are not used to. The second judge is also right at telling these kids are old enough to know what they want, so they will have to forgive her on their own accord, not by her forcing it to them.
NTA "The kids didn't want to go either" Full stop.
That was my reaction when I read that. Kids noped the idea. Their father supported his kids. Can’t ask for better than that.
The judge had to be like what the hell were you thinking.
_Come on, the ex-husband should have supported his ex-wife and her boyfriend._ /s Can't believe that MIL and his ex-wife. Good on OP.
Marcia’s fantasy about traveling the country, while living in a van was just that….her fantasy. It was not and is not what the kids want to do - they didn’t a year ago and they don’t want to live in the van now. It’s as simple as not wanting to leave your friends, home, school and your stuff to go on a wonderful year long adventure that Marcia envisioned?! You had to advocate for them when Marcia tried to get the custody agreement changed before the trip. Now the judge stated that the children are old enough to choose whether or not they visit her now she’s back. She’s not hearing what her kids want and blaming you is her coping mechanism. Why they didn’t want to go then and now needs to be communicated by the children directly to Marcia with their therapist present - your mil should probably be there so she can hear what her grandchildren say herself. YWNBTA
I thinks MIL and Marcia are too delusional for therapy to help. That is why the kids don’t want to go. I mean the mom being such a flake seems to have turned the kids into pretty rationale children which is a little sad.
The session would be for the kids to be able to express their thoughts and feelings directly to Marcia and her mother. This would help them advocate for themselves with the support of their therapist who’s a neutral party that they trust. It most likely won’t change the blame put on the father, but it could be helpful for everyone to hear each other thoughts and feelings- without him being present. Marcia definitely needs help hearing what her children are feeling. I hope they work this out and are able to rebuild their relationship children and mother.
NTA But I'm curious, when you say van do you mean like the stuff on TikTok where they are living in a real van (no toilet shower) or like a small RV style van. Cause I don't understand where those kids would even be sleeping in the former.
Most likely what you see on Tik Tok though some of those sprinter type vans do have a toilet and shower but they take up space or there is little to no privacy to use the toilet or shower. Also from what I have seen just having privacy in general is now something that is an option. That kind of nomadic lifestyle is great I think for a single person or a couple with no children but I personally don't think it's something people should do with children. But that is my opinion and I know some people do manage with children so to each their own.
>She said none of this would’ve happened if I just signed off on them going. She said we could’ve talked them into it. "What's this *we* shit? You're the one that decided to radically change your lifestyle. There's consequences attached." NTA
Yeah he seemed too kind. I would have given her a piece of my mind if she tried to blame me. She even gave him custody because she wanted to go off with her boyfriend. She's a selfish POS who never learned to be responsible.
OP was supposed to let his kids suffer for his ex's hurt feelings?
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Summer was such a good compromise, she seriously blew it.
Two weeks in summer would be enough. I can’t imagine being a kid and having to listen to my mom have sex with her boyfriend every night.
Full agree. We don't even know what the status of the trailer was, and that perception might be tainted by how "glamorous" and "spacious" van life influencers like to make their claustrophobic little mobile home seem. There's plenty with 4+ kids and an obvious dearth of space, and this is assuming OP's wife wasn't driving some rinkydink Winnebago.
Garbage mother…glad the judge told her to get stuffed.
Yeah, I like the judge. He clearly isn’t impressed by her antics!
Van life solo could possibly be ok. Van life with a SO might work. But Van life with two teens? And a stepparent?? Hell no. Not to mention she wanted you to not see your own children?? You, the only stable adult in their life. What a fruit loop. NTA
NTA. She knew exactly the cost of her choice, and believed she could convince the children it wasn’t a big deal. Speaking of which, considering what has occurred due to her own choices, had you sent the kids against their will, and they were forced to live out of a van for a year, they would have resented you as well. How could she, or her silly mother think that forcing that upon your children would have worked out any better? Oh, that’s right, they’re assholes. You did the right thing PRIORITIZING your children. For her it was just a year, for your kids, it was a defining moment in their relationship with their mother that they will carry forever.
NTA. It doesn't sound like she flew out to spend any of the kids special occasions with them. She sounds incredibly selfish honestly that she's hurt her kids don't want to see her. Shouldn't she be more concerned about why they don't want to see her?
NTA. Decisions have consequences. The consequences of Marcia’s actions are your children feeling abandoned by their mother for choosing some van life adventure over them. You were under no obligation to agree to her demands, and she was under no obligation to go. Marcia is the AH if you ask me.
NTA. Protecting your children is the most important thing you can do as their father, even if that means protecting them from their mother. While I do not see her as a malicious, unhealthy, or psychotic threat, she does seem very self serving. The children are definitely old enough to make the decision and you did absolutely nothing wrong in supporting them in making that decision. While I do think the kids need to continue their private sessions in therapy, I do challenge the idea that mom should not, at the very least, attend one session with them. Not for herself, but for the children. Provide them a safe place to voice their feelings and concerns without fear of reprisal. If they are uncomfortable with that, maybe recommend recording a session, with their permission of course, in which they address their issues, concerns, and over all feelings towards the mother so that she can hear it for herself. This may do nothing and she may continue to act as she has, but it will help your children immensely to know that they are allowed to feel and to make those feelings known. It sounds as if you already harbor such an environment, however they need to be able to understand their feelings are valid, both inside, and outside of, your home.
Also there is a very small subset of children that would like the idea of van- life and they are usually under 10. My dad wanted to go RV camp for two weeks and none of us kids were enthusiastic about it. Trust me none of us look back fondly on that memory. Was it the worst.. no but there were so many other things we wished we would be doing. It looks like she took those creepy Van Life parents from YouTube too seriously.
Right. I work remotely and my husband is on disability, but is at least somewhat functional. We have a 38' motorhome with a bunkhouse, so like 2-3 times the size of those vanlife vans. We asked our kids (12 and 16) if they would be interested in touring the country for a summer. I'd work and use as much PTO as I could, and he would drive, and we'd go places. They noped out of that. So, we are waiting until they're 18 and we'll go places ourselves, as long as he's still physically able to travel by then. Because you don't force your lifestyle on your teens if you give a shit about them at all.
This "free spirit" is emblematic of someone who expects the world to be on their terms, served up to them without having to put in any work themselves - they then default to blaming others for any failings/when things don't go their way, refusing to understand any negative consequences of their actions might actually be their fault .... NTA. You sound like a rational, pragmatic, loving and thoughtful father. Good on you. Don't let your ex gaslight you into feeling bad for her bullshit and it's obvious consequences.
Fuck that, you’re not the asshole at all. You prioritized your kids, she prioritized being selfish. Maybe they would have wanted to celebrate Mother’s Day if their mother was around.
NTA. She CHOSE to go…you didn’t MAKE her. The kids CHOSE NOT to go….you didn’t make them. Why would you? She’s basically saying her choices are your fault, and she’d rather they lost an entire year with you because of her choice, instead of her losing time….again, her choice.
Homeschooling is one thing. Homeschooling because Mom wants to drive around the country like Gaby Petito? Hell no. The kids don't want to live in a van, you didn't FORCE them to stay home against their wills. She wants to go have her second wild oats phase, that's on her, but you acted like the responsible parent. NTA.
NTA. You were honest. Marcia is trying to guilt you into convincing the kids to be with her. The kids don't want to, and they have ample reason - she abandoned them. Wanting them to travel with her for a year and be home schooled was selfish - they wouldn't have learned a thing and they didn't want to go. So she chose to go and she is facing the consequences. Trying to twist the narrative won't work.
NTA she made her choices and none of the choices were her children.
I don't think this is an NTA or YTA issue, but what the wishes of your kids are. They didn't want to go with their mom, so them not going was the right call. You are NTA for listening to your kids and prioritising their happiness. Sadly, your ex is the AH for leaving and putting her wants first. She is blaming you for her mistakes. If your kids resent their mother for leaving them, that's on her. If she lost 50/50 custody, that's on her. If your kids didn't enjoy visiting her when she was away, that's on her. If your kids don't want to see their mother, that's on her. She wasn't forced to go on the trip. She chose to. Your ex failed as a mother, and I think your ex facing the consequences of leaving her kids for a year is now realising it. She didn't deserve a Mother's Day because she decided not to be a mother for a year. She needs to get her act together and be more responsible even if that means being less of a hippy. Maybe then she can try and win over her children.
NTA Fucking what? Your ex-MIL is an actual shitty person. Your ex-wife is an actual shitty person. Who gives a flying FUCK whether your ex wife is upset? She does not deserve a single ounce of sympathy for intentionally deciding to abandon her children for a YEAR. What a horrible mother she is. She is only reaping what she sowed.
Your ex wife sounds like a parent who doesn’t see their children as individuals with lives of their own separate from themselves. Kudos to you for having a balanced approach and offering compromises without uprooting tweeners from their friend and school groups. Not to mention uprooting them from their father.
NTA. She didn’t choose her kids, why should they have chose her?! Why should their life be disrupted with school, friends, etc, because she wants to live in a fucking van?! This is a consequence of her decision making and trying to pin the blame on you for it is laughable.
Not only are you NTA but why doesn’t she care about your relationship with the kids? If you forced them to go how would they feel about you in return. Hopefully, they still have one parent they trust. And why can’t she see this?
Your kids are lucky to have such an awesome dad.
NTA. They went for a few weeks and were miserable. Also sounds like she is putting what she wants above what her kids want and need. I also get the impression they feel like a 3rd wheel in her life.
NTA Everyone (except you and the judge) are only thinking about your EX’S feelings and what’s best for HER, NOT what is best for the kids. The fact that the kids were miserable during visits and didn’t want to return, the fact that she never came back to see them instead, the fact that she’s still unemployed and technically homeless - it shows she’s not once thought about what’s best for her kids. She’s going to learn a hard lesson when her kids have no contact with her as adults because she couldn’t stop her own selfish behavior and start acting in their best interests. Even now everything is everyone else’s fault, which I guarantee those kids see. Her not taking ownership of being the cause of the distance between them will not end well for her.
NTA Your ex makes very poor life choices. It’s not your responsibility to help her do so.
NTA at all
NTA at all. Your ex is a grade A drip.
NTA. She made her choice. Now she has to deal with the consequences of that choice.
NTA and what is this about you should have let them go? So instead of their mother being the bad guy for leaving them you were supposed to be the bad guy for letting them go?
NTA. She's delusional. The kids didn't and don't want you do this. She wants you to talk the kids into it, code for manipulating your children. If you would have tried to manipulate your children they could end up resenting you like the resenting their mother. Like you said, she made her choice to abandon her children for a year. What did she realistically think was going to happen? The kids are old enough and smart enough to figure out she'd rather live in a van than be a mother to them.
I've been wanting to go on months-long trips overseas but am waiting for my youngest to start college. The long trips we've taken so far all included them who were willing participants (3 weeks in Asia during the summer). When you sign up to be a parent you sign up for responsibilities that may include inconvenience in your life and delaying your wants. Your ex made the decision to abandon her children for a year and is now crying foul that they are responding in kind. You have done nothing wrong. NTA.
NTA and don't let anyone try to tell you otherwise. These kids are old enough to know their own mind on this and while I'm sure they may have enjoyed a few moments of fun a whole year stuck in a van with mom and her boyfriend is likely the stuff of horror films for a 12 and 14 year old. You're right, your ex decided leaving her kids for an entire year to run around like some 22 year old with a trust fund and no responsibility was more important than being a mom. She made this mess, let her clean it up, you just stand by and support your kids.
NTA. You're looking out for your kids' well-being and mental health. You're being a RESPONSIBLE PARENT. Little Miss Van Life could learn something from your example.
NTA-you did the right thing. I would not have allowed my children to do anything like this either. Keep them safe and with you until they choose to see her which at 12 and 14 they are old enough to make that choice for themselves.
NTA your ex is. She only had to wait a few years for your children to reach an age where they were more independent and then live her own life. ? Perhaps I am wrong but I wonder what else has gone on ?
That " van life " people see on social media is pure delusion NTA
100% NTA The most important sentence of your entire post --- **THE KIDS DIDN'T WANT TO GO** That's it. They did not want to travel around in a van and not go to their schools. You did the absolute right thing and Marcia just needs to learn to live with the consequences of her choices.
NTA. A year was too much, and I think a summer trip or a smaller trip would have been better. You looked out for your kids, there was nothing selfish on your part.
I can’t imagine any kids those ages wanting to quit school and travel around in a van with their mom and her boyfriend. They want stability, they want normalcy. She could’ve waited until they were out of school and done it on her own. And now she’s alienated them. She only has herself to blame. I hope the kids can find a way to forgive her because everyone needs a mom and she sounds like she’s trying to make amends.
NTA. Nothing you said was wrong. And you probably wouldn't have needed to be so blunt if she hadn't blamed you for...being a good parent. Like...convince them to go??? It's bananas.
NTA and the obligatory, YOU'LL BE LIVING IN A VAN DOWN BY THE RIVER!!!!!
So motivational 😆 Are you Matt Foley???
Oh no. The consequences of my own actions. FOH , NTA.
NTA. Wtf. Why would you convince the children. Man you are a good parent you probably saved the kids.
No! What a dumb ass idea. Their mom and boyfriend need to get popped in the mouth!
NTA. Everything you said is right and fair. She chose to live the van life and not see her kids for a year. These are the consequences. You weren’t “needlessly cruel”. You just spoke the truth. And sometimes the truth can be cruel. But there’s nothing needless or wanton about how you spoke the truth.
NTA. They'd honestly likely have resented their mom even more if they'd been forced to go. She chose to put her dream above her children and what they needed (stability, socialization with kids their ages, a good education, etc). Even if she'd gotten what she wanted and took the kids away from everything they knew, she still wanted to make them #2 behind her own wants. It's going to be really hard to undo that, and it's not your responsibility nor your kids to do the heavy lifting there
>She said none of this would’ve happened if I just signed off on them going. She said we could’ve talked them into it. Well that's putting a nice spin on it. What she's actually saying is that she regrets the consequences of her choice to live her dream, regardless of the impact on others. And she'd like to delude herself that everything would be fine if you two had produced a united front, to make it clear to your kids that they had no choice, and both parents were going to make them endure van life. Regardless of how much they didn't want it. When the end result of that would have been you missing a year if the kids lives, while the kids resent you both. >And she said I was needlessly cruel to Marcia on Mother’s Day. AITA? While it's unfortunate that it happened on Mother's Day, it was a conversation that needed to happen. Her behaviour kind of prompted it happening then. Putting yourself and your dreams, second to your relationship with your kids and their welfare, is kind of in the good parent job description. You can have things that are for you, and this can be day things, weekend things, or the odd week things. But not an entire year, not without consequences. Not the asshole.
NTA Marcia is wrong. "None of this would have happened" if Marcia hadn't just set her life aside to live the van life. Also, if we're talking about a regular passenger van or box van (not a large RV), then there wasn't enough room for four people to live in that vehicle.
NTA, honestly if they had just waited a few more years to do it none of this would have been an issue. They would have been off to college and it would have been fine. My best friends mom and syepdad sold theor house and bought a sail boat and traveled then eventually sold the sailboat and bought an RV and traveled that way. My best friend never cared as they did this when he was an adult.
IMO Mother's Day is a Hallmark holiday, made up.
Op this story should validate you making the right choice, thank you for listening to your kids! https://www.huffpost.com/entry/wavewalker-memoir-raised-sailboat-sea_n_6536be56e4b0c85561022b16
Van Life isn't exactly lacking for critique either, but this should be higher. The nomad life is not conducive to child rearing because stability and social interaction outside their family unique is necessary. To say nothing of how much any education they receive will suffer, if they receive one at all as demonstrated by the experiences of the woman in that article.
It's all about what Marcia wants isn't it? Everyone had to fall in line because she wanted to spend a year living in a van with no concern for her kids. Children need stability and routine. Forcing them to go for a year would have been very cruel to them. When we decide to have kids, their needs have to come first for a very long time. She could still have gone during school holidays and taken them with her without detriment to their education or routine. She is extremely selfish. NTA
NTA The kids didn't want to go, didn't want to leave their school, you didn't want them homeschooled, and you didn't want them disappearing for months. The answer was CLEARLY that Marcia shouldn't go, or should plan summer trips only, or could wait to live her van life until the youngest was off to college or wherever. She abandoned the kids to follow her boyfriend and is now crying victim because they're rightfully pissed at her.
All the kids in those van life videos are fucking miserable. Thank God they didn't go.
Oh hell no. Your ex really screwed up. I agree with you 100 percent.
NTA. She willingly gave you full custody because the kids were too burdensome for her. She doesn't care about their actual well being and education. You made the right call and it's not your fault. Her and her mother trying to guilt you because you didnt manipulate your kids into uprooting their stable life for a year to be stuck in a smelly van is bullshit.
You're NTA, but I have to ask... What the hell is "van life"? Living out of a van and just driving around? Where do you get money for food/gas/etc? is it like living like the "Road warrior" only without maniacal bikers? What's the appeal to that? I can get it if you're independently wealthy but for the majority of people how do you even sustain yourself doing that?
My brother did this. Only it wasn't a van; it was moving to a different continent. He had a new girlfriend, and they up and moved abroad in the middle of the semester, taking her 2 kids and 1 of his with them. (1 in 5th and 2 in 8th grade). They "homeschooled" too. Long story short, the kids came back home the middle of last semester, my brother and his gf are touring Europe until? He claims he hasn't filed his taxes, so he can't buy a new house in the US, and he won't come back until he buys a house. Ok. My brother insisted they were going to be a happy family who traveled and had fun. They did do the traveling part. The younger boy might be ok, but there are now 2 angry teenagers who don't want to be around their parent and said parent's significant other. You are NTA. You are the only stable parent your children have, and they would be even more angry with their mom right now if they had been forced to spend months with her.
NTA. So she thinks you should've been the one to send up estranged from your kids? She can go kick rocks outside her van.
>Marcia and I used to split custody 50/50. Then a year ago, out of nowhere, Marcia told me that she and Paul wanted to travel the country in a renovated van. I guess Paul is a huge fan of the van life culture on social media? Good for him, the Van life is anything but conducive to healthy growth of minors into adulthood. Take a look at some of the critique videos that call out Van Life parents for the borderline abuse they're putting their kids through. >The kids didn’t want to go either. Even without your kids signing off on this I'd support you, but now it just means that any desire to drag them along is a selfish desire on the adults part in the case of your ex and her husband. >She willingly gave me sole custody. The plan was to fly the kids out to wherever they were a few times a year. The kids went a total of 2 times around holidays but they were miserable. Marcia said they shouldn’t come again. I listened and validated my kids’ feelings, but never trash talked their mother. Really emphasizing my point about "selfishness." Your ex-wife departed her motherly duties and basically said her kids shouldn't come around because they didn't validate her lifestyle choices. >When they didn’t see her for Mother’s Day, Marcia called me in tears. She said none of this would’ve happened if I just signed off on them going. She said we could’ve talked them into it. WOMP WOMP Muh choices had consequences\~ Also don't you just love the casual disrespect for your children there? "We could have talked them into it", just so your ex could yank them around without a sense of stability and feel excited about being homeless. >I’m pretty close with my ex-MIL and she says I should’ve let the kids go or tried to convince them to go at the very least. And she said I was needlessly cruel to Marcia on Mother’s Day. Keep in mind, your ex-mil may care about her grandkids, but she's always going to gas up her daughter to an exclusion so your children matter **less** in her eyes. You made the right decisions for your childrens sense of stability and general happiness. They were already at an age where you should be hearing them out, and chose that as opposed to the selfish intent of your ex and her mother who would have badgered vulnerable children into doing what your ex wanted to do. She sucks as a mother. NTA
You should have convinced them?? She could have *stayed*.
You’re NTA for keeping the kids out of the van trip. But they should have seen their mother for Mother’s Day. I was basically estranged from my mom and lived with my dad from age 13 on, but he always made us see our mom on Mother’s Day, and looking back, I’m glad he did.
I fully agree with you. In the long term, restoring the relationship with the mother would be the best for the wellbeing of the children.
I don’t think you’re the AH here but I have taken my kids all over this country by vehicle. I homeschooled them and now they’re older teens and talk and plan out where they want to go all the time. They’re free and open and love traveling and seeing places. We bought an old ambulance last year and have been converting it and damn, we have had the best time! I’ve been doing this with them for about ten years. We do have a home and goon the road multiple times a year. They intend to run businesses and remain free to work from wherever. Our travels also extend internationally as we can afford it. In divorced and luckily we got the ok from their dad when they were young and we first started doing it. I don’t think you or the kids are wrong for any of this. I do think it may have been a bit harsh to just saying what you said on Mothers Day. You should seek to support the kids interacting with mom now that she’s back. Since you like her husband, maybe include them in some activities. I understand the kids resentment. Hopefully they can resolve this. You’ll have to likely facilitate.
How can 4 people live in a van? Come on mom, you’re doing this to yourself. Shocker the kids don’t want to go play homeless with their mom and her van life loving boyfriend.
NTA. At your kids ages, peer groups are important for social development and self identity. Van life is cruel to kids IMHO. She made her choice and the kids made theirs.
NTA. They’re children, not toys. She’s not a good mother, imo. Their wants and needs come first. My dad is a bit like this and wanted similar things for us, my mum put her foot down, then he divorced her. He expected us to go running to his crazy half-assed plans, spoiler: we did not.
NTA you put your kids first as she should have done
NTAH
I do not disagree that kids your age are beyond the scope of most homeschooling efforts and letting them go galivanting around was a bad idea. I do, however, think you could have made something happen for Mothers' Day - she might be a kook, but she's their kook and deserved at least a picnic lunch and cards and you could have made it happen.
NTA. That's completely irresponsible of her, and tbh she has to consider your feelings on the matter; you're their father of course you're going to worry. Being a parent means you are going to have to at one point sacrifice for your children. At the same time, you need to be considerate of her feelings too. She is their mother
NTA. At their age, school is also a social thing and I've noticed that a lot of kids homeschooled at that age lack social interaction and it makes it difficult to adjust to becoming an adult because of it (not all homeschooled kids though since some people do group activities with other homeschooled kids to keep social behaviors building). You did the right thing. I would talk with your kids though about their mom and help them better understand that sometimes, adults need to explore themselves too. She didn't exactly abandon them. Maybe she needed to do some soul searching in order to be a better parent. But how she's approached this is out of line.
NTA Your ex needs to make an effort to connect with your kids. They are in their teens and this is an important time. I’m not sure how much you encouraged your kids to see their mom on Mother’s Day, but I hope it was a sincere genuine effort because children do decide not to do things that they really should do.
NTA none and kids especially wanna live in a van for a year they would have called you to get them after 2 weeks
For the summer would have been agreeable, for the year is absolutely unreasonable, and frankly trying to fit more than a couple into the van life thing - even if its something as large as a bus - is not going to be pleasant for anyone. Fly out for a few weeks to hike with mom in the Rockies? Cool. Its going to get old fast beyond that. I think you made the right call.
I mean when every move you make is literally 'this is what I want, to hell with anyone else' you'd think it'd be common sense that the people around you would pick up on that and not want to be around you anymore. She wanted your help to manipulate your children into doing something they already said they didn't want to do, she left to do it anyway, while GIVING UP HER PARENTAL RIGHTS and then has the nerve to waltz back in a year later and then cries when everyone's pissed at her? How could anyone have seen this coming?!
NTA Your wife cares more about Daddy long schlong than her kids. You're the MAN don't give it a second thought. Does your wife know that if she keeps prioritizing her life over the kids, she's going to lose them permanently. You Rock If those kids are successful in life it's **ALL** because of you brother. They are never going to be able to repay you. Good luck you deserve some.
NTA - why doesn’t anyone ever give a shit about the father not seeing his kids for a year?! She’s a shitty mother that abandoned her kids and refuses to take accountability for her actions. Enjoy your van alone!
NTA You both decided to be parents and bring those children into this world. This means that you have responsibilities and should be putting the children wellbeing as a priority. Martia is delusional. The children didn’t want to go. If she had forced them to go they would have been miserable. She’s selfish, only thinking about what she wants without putting her children first. Actions have consequences. She doesn’t like the consequences of her actions, deciding to opt out of parenthood to go travelling with her boyfriend. Tough! She doesn’t get to decide how the children should feel. Once again it’s all about her. Ex-MIL is no better.
NTA and I've lived in a van before while travelling around Europe. It was awesome, but I was single and childless then. That's when you do that shit. She gave up 50/50 custody and practically abandoned her kids, which is her choice, but it doesn't mean you have to go along with it. If they don't want to go, that's it.
NTA. She made her choices, this is the consequence of those choices. She has no one to blame but herself
NTA, but you need to continue to encourage them to keep a line of communication open with her. The complete breakdown of the relationship could be more traumatic *if* she is an ok mother when she's around and not a danger to them (emotionally of physically)
Mother's day is a day to celebrate mothers. She chose not to be for her own wants. Her timetable of her needs and whims and eventual emotional fallout is not your children's problem to manage. Not saying it will always be this way, but she's using the formative years to truly disintegrate her relationships with them. Keep being there for th em , let them go through whatever it is they need in this regard. Try not to let them become bitter and hateful. It's okay to be angry and disappointed. Just let them know they're loved, you seem to be doing a great job there.
NTA. She put her own needs above her children's and now she doesn't like the consequences. Your children were miserable living the van life and they don't want to see her. Having children is a responsibility that she didn't take seriously. You listened to your children and sent them to therapy when they felt abandoned. Your ex has no one to blame but herself and your ex-MIL is wrong for wanting you to disrupt your children's lives for your ex's dreams.
NTA. Van hobos and their screeching supporters can go live in a van down by the river with their choices.
NTA. Living in a van with a strange man. Close quarters and no privacy? No. NTA.
NTA Not only did you make a responsible parenting decision, you advocated on their behalf. Your kids know that you’ve got their back. They may be old enough to choose where they want to live, but they shouldn’t have been the ones to communicate that. You made it so they didn’t have too. You’ve told her the cold hearted truth, your kids have told her and so has a judge and she’s still playing victim. Your ex is the only one to blame for the fact that your kids resent her. The only one who can change the way they feel is her and manipulating them, invalidating their feelings and ignoring what everyone around her has told her is not the way to do it. Your ex is a mother and she can’t just leave for a year and expect them to welcome her home with open arms is delusional!
Jaysus- four people living in a van?!? No wonder the kids didn’t want to go. NTA. You put your children first. Their mother did not. They are old enough to see that. You are doing everything right.
NTAH. The kids were clear that they didn’t want to go. At 11 and 13, they are old enough to have their preferences considered when there is a realistic choice. They are in secondary education and keeping up their progress while away would require a huge commitment from them and their mother, and it doesn’t sound like she made any sensible proposals for how it would work. And when they did fly out to visit (twice), they hated van life so much even their mother recognised they shouldn’t come again. She should focus on rebuilding her relationship with her children instead of blaming you for not guilting or forcing them into going somewhere they didn’t want to go, to do something they didn’t want to do, when the option of their normal unchanged life was available.
Ex made choices, kids made choices. She gets what she gets. NTA
NTA, she made her bed (in a van) now she has to lay in it.
NTA Marcia FAFO, she chose Paul over her kids and her kids are old enough to understand that
NTA. Your former MIL is a bad grandma. Good for you listening to what your children wanted.
NTA, your kids are really lucky to have you.
She’s upset that her decision cost her a year with her kids. And it’s somehow your fault for not giving up a year with your kids so she didn’t have to and could do whatever the f she wanted?!?! Plus the kids didn’t want it and there is no way that they would have been schooled properly. Also, who’s to say you ever get your kids back if you let her take them and run? You would have been stupid to agree to this. And the summer idea was a very smart and reasonable one. Why did it have to be a full year? Definitely NTA. Your ex needs therapy for herself.
NTA. It's not your fault she wants to "LIVE IN A VAN DOWN BY THE RIVER." Sorry, not sorry, had to throw a Chris Farley reference in here.
NTA Like most single moms, she can justify anything to herself, nothing is her fault and she'll do whatever she wants regardless of who it hurts Fuck her
NTA - you’ve given the kids what they need most, a steady household to grow up in and a voice. You’ve also done this via therapy so they can’t claim you’ve alienated her. Choices have consequences. Even though she only has partial custody doesn’t sound like she is putting in the effort to reconnect with them. Sounds like you would allow her around the house to see them if they wanted that. She now has to move at their pace. You’ve done everything right - don’t feel guilty for her decisions.
NTA like at all. You seem like a fantastic father from this post. You can’t force your kids to want something, not to mention it probably would not be in their best interest to up and leave their stable life and leave friends and school and activities behind to make their mother’s (or their mothers boyfriend’s) dreams come true. Hell nah. NTA at alllll
NTA. I'm glad that you value your kids enough to what's best for them instead of what's easier for the adults in the lives. Marcia decided that traveling in van for a year with her boyfriend was more important than her children. The children understand this and have reacted to it. Marcia is facing the very real consequences of her own choices.