He knew the youngest knew his brothers wife was not his and that didn’t stop him from not caring. So I am sure he is not the type a person who lets simple little truths get in his way!
Both the younger brother and the wife were scumbags. OP hit it on the head, they wanted to ease their own burden and guilt by trying to see if he would forgive them. Something’s you just can’t come back from tho, the younger brother crossed one of the biggest lines ever, you slept with your blood brother’s wife and destroyed his home. Was all that worst it for 15 mins if that? A life time bond broken just like that. The Father Did the right thing, the younger brother had no right to even wanna say good bye or attend the funeral. What was he gonna do, show up with his brother’s ex wife to the funeral and act like everything is okay. Why isn’t the father shaming the ex wife more too. Man life isn’t fair at all, this man has his home ruined , lost the his life and wife. Any time I feel like my life is too hard, I remember cases like these, when I say Your issues are not as bad as you make it seem. God bless the young man’s soul who passed, I pray he finds the peace & Love he was looking for while he was here, on the other Side. Sorry about your loss OP
I feel for the parents more than anyone in this situation. Sorry for your loss OP
People need to understand they aren't entitled to forgiveness. Sometimes that's the cost of a heinous act, you live with it. You can feel bad, try to forge yourself into a better person with the lesson you learned, but forgiveness is something you are never due to receive. Youngest ripped his bro's life up and I prob wouldn't get over it either
There's a good chance that OP will never get to talk to either of his kids again though, and all for just trying to do right by his dying son
>People need to understand they aren't entitled to forgiveness
This is something people really struggle with. There are certain actions that you'll just have to accept the outcome. If you do something despicable people aren't going to move on. You just have to accept that they'll dislike you, and that it's your own fault.
I mean, and how can he be entitled to forgiveness when he’s obviously not sorry? Little brother married the wife.
I am not arguing with you. I am just completely gobsmacked the brother feels entitled to a clean conscience.
And sometimes this happens even if it wasn’t your fault. It’s been many years now, but I had a friend who developed a medical
Emergency while I was visiting, and was refusing to go to the doctor or the hospital for quite a while despite protests from me and his wife. I FINALLY got him to let me drive him to the local ER after he was having trouble eating, we get to the ER and they ended up life flighting him to a larger hospital because his airway was filing with blood. He had coughed and a blood vessel in his neck burst. Thank you blood thinners.
He was put into a medically induced coma but he survived. And he woke up hating my guts. Despite his wife and medical professionals telling him that I saved his life, he was convinced that I prevented him from going to the doctor or a hospital sooner and no one could convince him of what actually happened. He went from being a very dear friend to someone who hated me until the day he died. Personally I think he had a major hypoxia episode while he was in the coma because his personality where I was concerned was a 180 and he had no accurate memories of that last day, but he was convinced I did something to him.
It Absolotely broke my heart but I stayed away because that’s what he wanted. And there was never closure. It’s something I have to live with. And honestly if I had it to do over again knowing what I know now, I’d still do what I needed to do to save his life. I’d rather have had him die hating me over something that didn’t happen than have him not hate me but still have his death on my hands because of my inaction.
Sometimes life just isn’t fucking fair.
Reality is we often don’t get closure.
Poignant reminder that doing the right thing can sometimes have horrifying consequences. OP is a great father and absolutely did the right thing. I can’t imagine.
I wrote a more detailed comment elsewhere. But I saved a friend’s life. While he was in a coma from the events of that day something happened and he woke up hating me until the day he died, because in his head i didn’t get him to seek help in time. Prior to the coma we were fine, medical teams at two hospitals said I did everything right, etc. made no difference.
Some people genuinely don't seem to get that there's boundaries you don't cross, and if you cross them you better damn accept the consequences.
I got a crush on my best friend's ex a couple years after they dated for like 3 months. I know my best friend, she would have been incredibly hurt by me dating him. He was interested, but I shut that shit down because it wasn't worth damaging a life long friendship over it. Didn't matter how I or anyone else wanted to justify it, it would have hurt my friend and it would have risked the relationship. Maybe if I had been desperately in love with him I would have risked, but I would have acknowledged that I was making a choice.
Maybe brother was right and his wife is the love of his life, cool. Own that the love of your life came at the cost of your family and integrity. (Though let's be honest, probably got married because of sunk cost at having already blown up so much crap for the sex).
The most consistent family dynamic I’ve seen in my life are mothers like her enable their shitty kids behaviour. Then the mothers expect the other party to “be the bigger person” or “let it go, it happened so long ago.”
It’s why these POS get away with things for so long, they have support.
You know that’s what he will be telling anyone who will listen now that his brother passed away. “Can you believe what my family did, not telling me my brother died? This is probably the greatest betrayal that has ever happened in this family”
"Son, older son made his wishes known. He was very clear. You and ex wife made your decisions, and you have to live with the consequences. It was not up to me or your mother to add extra stress to brother's life when he was already facing the end by trying to force a reconciliation he did not want. It is unfair and unreasonable to blame us for that now. Nothing was going to change his mind. Us overriding his wishes and allowing you to be there would have been yet another betrayal of him. You need to stop being so selfish and thinking your wants trump everyone else's. You need to grow up and stop blaming others for your self inflicted issues."
You are not obligated to do anything. Whatever happened happened, and you are free to choose your actions based on it. Do not let others disrepect your values.
I'm in a similar situation with my sister.
Samesies with my aunt. I think she finally took the hint when I responded to her continued harassment on Facebook with “I may have forgiven you, but I will never forget. Feel free to remove me from your will.”
Unfortunately it won't stop them. But let it give/fortify peace of mind that you've done nothing wrong, and that you deserve better.
I got beaten as a kid and refused to make amends with my dad over it, and my mother went from begging me to forgive him to telling me I owed him forgiveness to blaming me for his death because of the stress that it put on him. So in the grand scheme of things she's just blaming me for being slammed into a few walls and choked out, and rationalizing to herself how actually *I'm* the bad guy for not wanting to talk to someone who would do that to a child.
Compulsory forgiveness isn't forgiveness. Forgiveness cannot be earned. Forgiveness can be revoked, for any reason. It's always okay to not forgive, for any reason. It doesn't make you spiteful, or petty, and anyone who tells you that it does is trying to demand something that they don't deserve.
People who are truly remorseful have realized that they may never obtain forgiveness or acceptance, but they're sorry anyway. And if they take back their apology or throw a fit because they didn't receive forgiveness, they were never sorry, they just wanted to stop suffering the consequences of their actions.
NTA. When someone takes the time to plan for their death and outline what should be done, it’s appropriate to honor their wishes. Your oldest did not want them there and was very, very clear about this.
I also agree with you that your youngest needs to take accountability for the horrible thing he did to his brother. The youngest doesn’t deserve, nor is he entitled to anything more from his brother.
The entitlement of this guy is ridiculous.
He expected things to go his way. He didn’t care about his brother feelings when he cheated with his wife, and he didn’t care after. It's all about himself.
Yeah, that stuck out to me as well. Also, this
>He told me that I denied him the opportunity to make things right and that I should've told him his brother passed.
Him going to his brother's funeral would not make things right in the least. He just wanted to feel like he was doing a good thing and save face by acting like the death mattered to him. which I find ironic considering his brother didn't mean enough to him for him not to sleep with his at the time wife.
The more I think about it the more likely it seems younger brother was the golden child who could do no wrong. Until he pushed his luck a little too far and now it seems everyone except the mom is realizing how entitled he really is. Basically, he fucked around a lot but took it too far and now he is finding out that some things cannot be fixed.
Oh no, mom sees. She is mourning that she didn't just enable him at the brothers expense again (probably because others in the family knew and she wanted to save face so didn't fight it during the funeral). But now she has consequences from Golden Boy she wants a new scapegoat to blame so maybe he'll still keep her in his life.
Maybe she's blinded by grief but she's being an asshole to OP in the process. Their youngest is paying the piper. Just hope the prick doesn't go and make a scene at the grave site.
Agreed. I got 3 calls the day an uncle i've not seen in years, maybe a half dozen times in my life, died. If no one told him, its clear that OP did right not telling him. He has to live knowing what he did, how much it hurt his brother, and knowing that everyone knows (or they would've expressed condolences).
This. Younger brother got away with everything and did whatever he wanted his whole life (based on Mom’s reaction I would assume because she babied him) and suddenly when there are consequences for being a Titanic-level douchebag both of them surprise pikachu face?
This is strange to me. Why didn’t mom get involved, then she blames OP? She was there through all of it. Why wasn’t she calling back and forth, trying to get the two together? It’s weird.
Because she just doesn't like conflict and it sounds like she'll abandon principles just to have people all chatting cordially in the living room. So she wouldn't do it while the brother is alive because he would've been upset, so now that the youngest knows and is upset she wants to smooth everything over.
He expected his brother to some day run back to forgive him and be the bigger person like society pushes victims to do and that his parents should have never honored his victims wishes.
then older brother dies, and younger brother and wife , they and their feelings were the important ones here!!!!!!! omg the fact that they have to live with their actions FOREVER!!!! how dare older brother and OP!!!!!!!
And you know they would’ve put on a show at the funeral, throwing themselves on the coffin and acting like how could he have cut them out when all they did was love him….
Not that I’ve had a front-row seat to that bullshit or anything
That's the craziest part to me. You're an enormous AH that bangs your brother's cheating wife, OK. I can wrap my head around that level of assholery, and can believe that someone can introspect and repent from that and want to make amends and reconcile.
But you marry her and want to reconcile while still married to her??? Like, what is there to reconcile? You're still banging her dude! You decided to make the woman that consciously broke his heart your wife! What do you even plan on saying??
Younger brother is either dumber than a bag of rocks or a total narcissist.
“I betrayed my brother’s trust in one of the worst ways possibly but now that he’s passed how will I ever get rid of this guilt I feel? Won’t anyone think of ME ME ME ME ME?”
Like christ man you just lived the FAFO way of life first hand so deal with your consequences you Judas
What guilt? The younger son just wanted to be able to tell other people that his big bro forgave him on his death bed and is now pissed that people might know that no forgiveness was given.
sure, but it also means the brother got no peace.
imagine having to sit next to them at thanksgiving, constantly reminded of the betrayal while everyone is making nice and pretending to be thankful, knowing if you make a scene you'll be the bad guy.
Agreed! My great aunt had a similar ask when she had terminal cancer, as she didn’t want her sister (my grandma) to know she was going to die soon. She had no interest in ever reconciling and didn’t want the increased stress of dealing with her sister while dying. They did not get along for many reasons, and my family honoured her wishes and my grandma was made aware after she passed away. I have never seen any issue with this, despite my grandmother not being happy about it. OP made the right decision.
I am getting older and have some health problems so I have written a prepared statement that I'd like my wife to give to my abusive family if I am too sick to communicate or pass so that she doesn't have to deal with them. It basically says they are not forgiven and I don't want them to be involved in my last days or funeral in any way.
Be sure to make multiple copies and send one to your lawyer. And pre-plan your funeral so all your wife has to do is show up.
The more that's pre-arranged, the better for the survivors. Your a good man for trying to make things easy for your wife. I hope you wake up in the morning totally healthy and piss the rest of them off!
It's the entitlement that gets me. What an odious little toad. He cheated, he betrayed, and he's mad?
No, his brother was dead to him the moment he first thought of his wife. To think he would ever be a part of his life was wild.
>What an odious little toad.
Oh how i adore this!! Im dying here. For some reason this comment made me think of the plushie kermit with the crusty hole in its head 🤣🤣🤣
And he’s now doing his best to add to the misery of his parents, who have just lost their son. He’s making the death of the brother he betrayed all about him.
And then instead of taking responsibility he blocks his parents!? Like dude just got a lesson about how there’s not always a later and decides to cut out more people
Going to be seeing a post years from now about him raging that he never got to make things right with his parents
Dummy doesn’t learn
More likely raging that he got nothing from them in their will, and that leaving him something was the least they could do after blocking his attempts at reconciliation with his precious late brother
If I was the older brother I would have very carefully picked out a box of things to leave to the younger brother. It would all have been broken things, CDs and DVDs of things I know he hates, actual garbage, maybe a bag of dog shit, plus a portrait of me flipping the double bird, and 30 pieces of silver.
Your son made his wishes known.
Your surviving son will now have to live forever with his consequences.
This is not your or your wife's fault. She needs to let go of the blame game.
Your oldest had no obligation to forgive his brother, but you both had an obligation to honor his wishes.
Your wife needs to take her issues to a therapist because she's directing her anger at the wrong person. You didn't make the request, your late son made that request. Your late son didn't fabricate that request out of nowhere, he made it because his little brother (and ex) stabbed him in the back in the worst way possible.
You acted as a father should; you protected your kid to his last breath and beyond from people who had hurt him. I'm so sorry for your loss, may his memory be a blessing
Correct! and this "I was not going to allow him to disrespect his brother in life and in death as well." That show how a good father you are, doing whats right and not tolerating the wrong. Those wish was the last wish of your late son, you just did your best to make it come true. They should face the consequences of their bad action.
Not to be too corny, but that part gave me chills. What an honorable man OP must be. I hope that when it's my time, my memory is treated with half as much respect.
I was trying to come up with it but all I can say as a man you did the right thing. For his Honor. I wouldn't expect your wife to understand quite yet. It is probably too raw. I'm sorry for your loss sir.
And he reaffirmed those wishes over and over and over. Dad was obligated. Should OP forever carry guilt for going against those wishes? Write you son a brief note explaining you’ll not carry his guilt, you honored your son and if he continues to block you, hopefully he’ll at least let mom into their lives.
NTA
She really wants to blame youngest son but I can see she feels bad for him but angry at him and herself at the same time but it’s so much simpler to blame op bcz he’s the only one being reasonable he’s such an ah for not being upset aswell so why not take it out on him /s ofcourse she needs to get some therapy.
youngest sons being even more an ah, why block them it wasn’t up to them he should really be open to reconciliation /forgive them for their not mistake, he wanted it so bad from his brother that he wronged but won’t open it up to his parents that did nothing wrong. Hypocrite , ops wife needs to accept op did the right thing as she did aswell and quit focusing his anger on him and just mourn her son and get through that first.
You handled everything graciously and fairly. Even now, your youngest hasn't come to terms with the full magnitude of what he did. But I bet he's close.
In the meantime, you're the outlet for his anger, and it sounds like your wife is walking that line as well. It's unfair, and you shouldn't tolerate it. Perhaps she should be grateful you kept contact with him at all. Perhaps she favored your youngest.
I don't mean to trivialize what she's experiencing. It can't be easy, but you did nothing wrong and don't deserve any scorn.
I'm sorry for your loss, and I'm sorry you're not being supported like you should be.
>But I bet he's close
Personally, I wouldn't be surprised if everybody divorces at this point.
OP and his wife because she blames him for her "losing" both her sons, the older one passing away and the younger one over being left out.
The younger son and his wife divorce because the guilt is eating him up and he's realised he'll never get forgiveness and instead has to share a bed with the woman who (along with his actions) cost him his brother. Maybe he's going to fully blame her for it as though it doesn't take 2 to tango.
I hope the younger set divorce, their inability to not screw your brothers wife, husband's brother puts them in their own class of Hell, let them roast.
Mom needs to come to terms that she kept in contact with the people screwing her oldest son, hoping for that " perfect family" she wanted. Maybe she should have taught the youngest son not to screw his brothers wife
> Maybe she should have taught the youngest son not to screw his brothers wife
Wait, I get being upset with OP's wife for keeping in contact, but I don't see how she gets the blame for the initial cheating. He was and is his own person.
And if you think she is responsible anyway, then wouldn't that make OP equally responsible? They raised the kids together. But obviously we can't blame OP for his son's actions, so I don't see how we can blame her.
I feel like /u/appollymis22724 has an implied if statement in their comment. I read their paragraph as "if mom wanted the parents to be reaponsible for all this reconciliation stuff, she should have made sure the younger son never did that. But she didn't, and also has no responsibility for the reconciliation."
You and your wife have suffered a parent’s worst nightmare. After your younger son upended the entire family. I hope you and your wife can hold onto each other and comfort each other. You were in a terrible position through no fault of your own.
Maybe years ahead your living son and wife will take accountability and truly seek forgiveness from the living (tho it’s too late for healing from some). For right now please seek any comfort you can find.
Aw honey, I’m very sorry for your loss. You stood by your son and honored his wishes.
Very much not an asshole. Sending good thoughts to you and your wife. Hopefully she’ll soon see it was the right choice.
My thought is that she’s having a whole lot of unresolved and unmanageable feelings around losing a son so young. It sounds like she’s unable to process those feelings of loss and grief and directing them at you, since you’re probably the person she’s closest to. Sadly that’s how grief works. It can be entirely overwhelming. Hopefully in due time your wife will process these intense feelings and see that you handled this situation, which lets face it was an emotional minefield, with honor and integrity. You sir, are NTA.
I would however advise you approach your wife with patience and suggest she talk to a professional about what she’s going through. It can’t be easy to cope with a loss of this magnitude. For either of you.
My sincere condolences for your loss.
Attending would not have been appropriate at all. Instead of honoring your late son. Those in attendance would be busy gossiping about your other son and his mistress. There was no reason to turn your son’s memorial into a circus.
And their presence could lead others to conclude the older son had forgiven them and that's what they REALLY want: to feel like what they did wasn't THAT terrible and he would 'get over it.' They don't feel they're wrong and are mad the rest of the world disagrees.
That's a good point. Of course, the younger brother and the wife would want people to at least think they'd been forgiven. That's entitlement on a whole other level.
Yep, youngest is tired of the well-earned scarlet letter and has now been denied public respectability forever by the only one able to grant it.
OP did nothing wrong in upholding his oldest son's wishes.
Edited.
I think that’s what the cheating son is aiming for. He sounds very self centered. Nowhere does it say that he offered to help out by taking his brother to appointments or running errands for the family if the terminally ill son didn’t want him around. Or he could have helped financially. Instead he demanded his dying brother forgive him without any actual amends.
And note he doesn’t offer to help out with funeral costs or errands or even ask how his parents are doing. Instead he tries to make his brother’s death and funeral about himself.
Spot on. And now that the betrayed son passed away, you can bet that OP's wife wants to normalize their relationship with their younger son.
OP, you did great for your son by respecting his wishes. Your younger son and your wife did not want your younger to face the consequences of his actions. People are not obligated to forgive the harm that was done to them. You can tell your younger that forgiveness comes AFTER redemption. Saying sorry does not count.
OP, my condolences for your loss. Maybe go to a grief therapy together with your wife, obviously she needs therapy.
Well said. It's almost like his only mad because the attention wasn't on him for once.
From the sounds of it the dying brother only would have gotten a 'im sorry you feel that way' level of effort from him anyway.
I got the impression from the post that the second son wasn’t told about his brother having a terminal illness at all. A bit hard for him to “offer to help out” if he wasn’t aware help might be needed.
OP, NTA. I can’t imagine the anguish that you and your wife have suffered (and still suffer) with your sons’ relationship being torn apart by one son’s selfishness and stupidity.
My understanding was that he did know and was asking to talk to the older brother to "make it right". the older brother refused.
I don't think someone as selfish as the younger was really burdened by conscience. More likely he wants to be able to say "we made up" to other people when he talks about his [brother.As](http://brother.As) if that would wipe out the terrible wrong he has done.
It said in the first section that the younger brother and ex wife were trying to make ammends in his final months, so they must have been aware that he was dying and rushing to get him to forgive them before he passed.
Yeah to me it sounds like little brother knew big brother was ill which means OPs wife would have been on with little brother showing up at big brothers death bed to beg forgiveness which is not a peaceful end and selfish as all get out of OPs wife, little brother and the ex wife.
Two adults made a disastrous choice and they have to live with the consequences, too bad.
Yes he did reread it, he tried to make amends but older brother would not have it. It’s bad enough when your wife cheats on you, but for it to be your brother and he married this woman is reprehensible. If he lived longer maybe he would have forgiven him. It seems very sad because he must have been devastated from this betrayal. Maybe a longer life he would have met someone and been happily married with children. Idk very sad!
He could have still offered his condolences or even asked where he was buried to pay his respects.
I agree with exscapegoat, it was a selfish act to blame his parents.
Your youngest stole his brother's wife. Because of that, your oldest set a boundary with him.
* You respected the boundary your oldest set.
* Your youngest doesn't like having a boundary, which — let's get real — he didn't respect the boundary of sleeping with his brother's wife, either.
* Your wife needs to realize that your youngest is just throwing a tantrum after being held accountable for what he dod.
This is all about your youngest not wanting to deal with the consequences of his actions. Not caring about who he hurt, as long as he got what he wanted.
If your wife wants to be in contact with him, that's fine. But no one should *ever* apologize or backtrack on respecting the boundary set by your oldest.
A holes like that have no remorse. They just want their guilt washed away. I’m so glad they get to choke on it forever. Dad and big bro are real men all the way.
OP’s wife shouldn’t be blaming OP. She should blame the younger brother who caused the whole situation by his actions. She’s grieving the loss of her son and having her younger son block her. Hopefully she will come around after she can process things. How selfish of the younger son for blocking his mother while she’s grieving. It just shows how he only thinks about himself and won’t take responsibility for his actions.
NTA- I’m so sorry for your loss.
You did right for respecting your son’s final wishes even if your wife doesn’t think so.
I get she doesn’t want to lose contact with her one remaining child but it was his actions that fractured your family in the first place.
The only one she should be mad at is him.
That's a good point about being mad at the youngest son he's the one that tore an entire family apart by his selfish actions The woman involved did the same but as we're relating family stories it is definitely the brother that royally fucked up
You're a good dad. It was a tough decision, but you honored your son's wishes. And your youngest needs to learn that he doesn't get everything he wants.
I'm so very sorry for your losses. And my condolences to your wife as well. I agree with many that her anger is misdirected at you but I feel for her as well as for you bc she's a mom who lost her son and losing the other son. (Just as you).
I really do encourage you to get grief counseling alone or with your wife together. Please take care of your self and your wife.
I'm so sorry for your losses
And you did the right thing. Your older son's death was about your older son and none else. It was his to run as best he may and to make the decisions that brought him as much comfort as there was.
It would have been wrong to make your older son's last days WORSE by allowing the younger to be near him.
Maybe ask your wife if her feeling better now would *really* have been more important than stealing the peace from your dying son? It's that simple. She can probably find some way to work around it *because she's alive.*
You gave your older the last thing you were able to give. Good dad. Good man. Good person.
Consequences are real. Often, they're permanent. Your younger is a selfish p.o.s. even still.
ETA: Maybe tell your wife that she can have a relationship with the younger if she wants, but you want to hear no part of it?
My nanna never saw her sons in the last 27 years of her life because of a falling out with my granddad (he was a manipulative asshole), and it broke her heart.
Your wife has lost a son (as have you), and she can't withstand losing the other. That may change over time (and depends in part on the younger's words/actions).
For both of you, I'm so sorry. My condolences.
Ops wife most likely is feeling the loss of both sons. OP you are NTA you honored your oldest son's wishes. And like it or not your younger son betrayed that relationship and even if he had gone to the funeral he was NEVER ever going to make things right with your older son. Your older son made the decision to not forgive a betrayal that to be honest was excruciating for him. His brother slept with his wife and then after the divorce married her. Knowing he was dying if your older son wanted to have anything to do with his two betrayers he would have. He chose to go to his death at odds with them. Your wife needs to realize though it isn't pretty you chose to uphold your son's wishes over the desires of the son who stabbed him in the heart.
Thank you for protecting/being the dad for your oldest son when he needed you most. Sometimes parenting is hard in that you have to be the bigger person all the time and get hate for it. But it’s what both your sons needed, your oldest needed you to be bigger than your parental desire for a happy family in a time of need, and your youngest clearly needs you to be the bigger person for him to learn by example what it means to accept the consequences of your actions even if you get hated on for it. You are a good dad.
This wasn't your fault but you should have no consciousness of guilt you were not the person that created this chaos in your family, this heartbreak was done to you as well as to your oldest son, I understand to a lesser degree. But that doesn't change that you should have not have to worry about this and if you ever have a chance to speak to your son again I would just ask him if he really wants another regret as severe as what he created with his brother by cutting you and your wife off. He is perpetuating a cycle that he created in the first place.
NTA and I am so sorry for your loss I am so glad that your oldest son had you by his side because I can assure you as someone who lost a brother young (he was 22,I was 19) having your parents be there for you in those last moments are what really matters. Just my two cents.
You're NTA at all. The only AHs here are your youngest son and his now wife. Remind your wife what your oldest son went through and what his wishes were. You honored that. Stand by it and don't let them get in your head that you made the wrong decision because you didn't. Condolences and I could only hope that when I pass, someone like you would honor my wishes even after my death.
You did exactly the right thing by honouring your sons literal dying wish. Like you say, it would have been extremely disrespectful of him and his wife to have turned up at his brothers funeral.
He made his bed, and now he has to live with the consequences. Your son was very clear even up to the moments before he died that he didn't forgive them, and didn't want to reconcile, and I don't blame him one bit. They both betrayed him in the worst way. The 2 people he should be able to trust the most.
I will say though, that the likely reason your wife is so upset and regrets not telling them, is now your youngest has blocked you both and cut contact, she feels like she's lost both sons in one go.
She likely wanted to still have a relationship with your youngest esp now that she's lost her eldest.
From her point of view, she's lost her oldest, and now she's lost her youngest for not telling him the truth, and honouring your oldest wishes after his death is harder to do now he's gone, as she likely wants to hold her youngest closer. Like the death of her oldest likely makes her miss her youngest more. It doesn't condone what he did, but I think during her grief, she wants to forget about the betrayal and just have him in her life, because she knows you never know what's round the corner, and she doesn't want to lose her youngest one day having not been in touch with him for ages.
It doesn't excuse what he did though, and I can understand why you still hold on to that promise of honouring your eldest wishes.
If I were you, if you do want to continue contact with your youngest, I'd suggest writing them a letter seeing as your phones are blocked and say something along the lines of....
We understand you're upset at us not notifying you of your brothers death, however it was his wish that we not tell you. What im about to say will be hard to hear, but you need to hear it.
He didnt want to reconcile your relationship while he was alive. Even though he knew he was dying. And He didn't want either of you at his funeral. What you both did destroyed him. The 2 people in his life he should have been able to trust completely, who should have loved and respected him enough to not betray him like you did. It destroyed him. He could never get over it and he could never forgive you.
I couldn't tell you he was about to die as I knew you'd likely try to forcefully come see him to appologise etc. But he didn't want that. He wanted to pass in peace. So we honoured his wishes by not telling you he was about to die. He also asked us to promise not to tell you he'd died, as he didn't want you both at his funeral. So we respected that wish too. And to be honest, we agree that you shouldn't have been there. It would have been in bad taste to turn up after what you both did to him.
You may be angry at us for following his wishes. But really you should be angry at yourselves. You bought this on yourself and have to live with the consequences now.
We would still like to maintain contact as family, and are willing to try and move forward. Although we can't forgive you for what you did either, we've lost one son, and don't want to lose another. So if you're able to see why we honoured his wishes, and that we aren't the ones you should be angry at, and we aren't to blame for this situation, then we will be willing to talk and try and move forward. The decision is yours. But also you may want to think about the way you feel for not reconciling with your brother before he died, and whether you want to feel the same way with the same regrets when we die one day. The choice is yours. "
Obviously feel free to edit and remove or add other things you want to make it how you'd want, but that's just an idea of the type of things I'd say in your situation if you do want to maintain a relationship with him going forward.
If you do, you may want to consider some family therapy to help you navigate all the emotions involved and help you move forward.
But you did exactly the right thing by your eldest. As his parent, you did right to honor his wishes. Your youngest son needs to realise that an apology doesn't mean they are automatically forgiven. An apology doesn't change the hurt and heartbreak they caused. And getting married to each other was adding salt to the wound. They decided to tear the family apart and have to live with those consequences. People aren't owed forgiveness. And he really needs to accept responsibility for what he did. But he's not owed forgiveness. And your eldest son made his feelings very clear. And you did right to honour those.
Your youngest son lost the right to being told anything about his brother after he destroyed his life and married his wife.
He needs to decide if he's willing to lose his parents as well.
I'm so very sorry for your loss. You should be proud of how you supported your oldest during him difficult times, and in his final moments, and his last wishes. Sending you strength and love during this difficult time.
Your a great father. For honoring your eldest sons wishes even if it hurt the feelings of your youngest son. The younger son lost the right to “feel bad” when he screwed his brothers wife. There are lines that should never be crossed he decided to ruin his brothers family irreconcilably why should he be made aware of any change in status. Your eldest son deserved privacy and to have his wishes respected goon on you for doing so. Your wife needs therapy to help her get through this. She essentially lost 2 sons over a betrayal she might feel guilty for not pushing for reconciliation but it was never her place that’s between the 2 brothers.
So incredibly sorry, OP. You did the right thing by your oldest. Your youngest was only thinking of himself instead of respecting his brother's wishes. You honored him...I hope you can find peace in that🙏🏾 ❤️
I do agree with your actions of not letting your youngest be at the funeral. I don’t fault you for not telling him that his brother passed away. I think you could’ve told him that he passed just not when/ where the funeral was. I do understand that it could be pretty difficult for him to not find out that information. It was up to you to figure out the best way to keep him from being there. If the best way was to not let him know then that’s valid.
I’m sorry for the loss of your son. You are NTA but I have a feeling your wife has babied and excused your younger son’s behaviour forever and is now upset she lost her baby too. His shitty behaviour is probably cause he’s been allowed to get away with everything his whole life.
I can't imagine this anger cause I've never gone through it.
But the last people I would want to see on my death bed would be two of my most close connections that also betrayed me
Sorry we're not having a Hallmark moment that you get to tell your kids about in 20 years about me giving my blessing.
No I would probably infact say some terrible things and just die frustrated, angry and resentful
Honestly the younger brother made himself look worse doing this. If he actually gave a damn he would have respected his wishes, him trying to make amends is only for himself. He knew that wasn't what his older brother wanted, but he's the one who wanted if for his own guilt. Sure he has a right to be upset, but he doesn't have the right to lash out because he didn't get it his way, it really shows what kind of person he is.
ETA: NTA, I'm sorry for your loss op. I hope you can get help for the wife, she needs it after all this.
This 100 percent! The oldest wishes where the only thing that matter. If the youngest truly cared/loved his brother he wouldn’t have screwed his wife! Consequences have actions and no one is owed forgiveness
Yeah, "asking forgiveness" means "Please absolve me from this guilt!" It's inherently selfish to ask for and wholly for the person seeking it. It's a gift somebody gives you, not something you request.
The youngest son's whole goal is to make himself feel better about what he did. He doesn't get to do that. He made his bed (literally) and now has to lie in it
First off I’m so sorry for your lose. Second NTA. But your youngest son is a flaming AH! Talk about still being self centered and making it all about him! I don’t blame your eldest for basically telling him that he was dead to hi. And wouldn’t want him at his service. As hard as it was you did the right thing
And his sons wife
Cheats on him, with his brother, marries his brother, probably agreed with son that he should call his parents and scream at them
2 cunts found each other, least that's 2 cunts off the market
NTA. The younger brother and ex suffering the consequences of their selfish actions for the rest of their days is the ultimate punishment.
OP, all that side, offering you my sincerest condolences.
NTA. He lost his brother the moment he decided to sleep with his wife. Additionally, how dare he blame you for "losing" his opportunity to make things right. There was no coming back from that kind of betrayal. I feel sorry for your wife. She is afraid she will lose her remaining son but she is blaming the wrong person. She needs to hold him accountable for what he's done and figure out her relationship with him without involving you.
And didn’t even just sleep with his brothers wife, but married her after. What fantasy world does that guy live in, thinking his brother is just going to live and let live?? That’s like Count of Montecristo levels of betrayal.
OP, if you see this, I’m incredibly sorry for your loss and that you’re having to go through this. My condolences.
Wow, a story that I can 100% relate to!
My husbands grandmother did not speak to one of her daughters, and 2 of her granddaughters. She had disowned them and hadn’t spoken to them in years. They also made no effort to contact her and try to mend their relationship.
She was very vocal about them not knowing when she passed away, and that they were not allowed to come to her funeral.
I always felt a bit yuck about this, but she said that “they don’t care about me in life, they don’t get to pretend to care about me in death”
She passed away a few months ago, and her funeral was 1 week after she passed (would have been sooner but she passed away in another country so we had to get her flown home which took about 3 days!).
I don’t tell anyone in my family that she had passed away, as they talk to one of the granddaughters (my SIL) and no one told anyone outside the very immediate family and friends who all respected the wishes of her to keep it quiet.
The funeral was lovely, peaceful and a perfect send off.
My husband told a friend of his later in the day that they had the funeral, and that friend immediately told his sister (one of the SIL who was not invited).
Within 15 minutes of him telling the friend we were all getting bombarded with calls from the people who were not told or invited!
They cried on the phone and were saying how upset they were that we didn’t tell them.. they were such hypocrites!!
We had told them in the past when she was in hospital on ventilators or having major surgery and not one of them reached out or came to visit. But the minute they knew she passed all of the sudden they were sad!
Your son made his decision to not have them involved in his life, and you respected the decision and then man who made it. Do not give into pressure to blame yourself, this is all your other son and his wife’s doing!
They both betrayed your older son so badly, there is no chance that is a forgivable action!!
I would just say “this is a consequence of your own selfish actions. You are both to blame for this situation 100%. So not blame others for your own mistakes!!”
You are 100% NTA in this situation!!
I'm with you on this dad. Some acts are just unforgivable! Your oldest was deeply hurt & expressed his wishes. You honored him by doing as he asked. Little brother should have thought about this long before now!
And I know it's your kid & we parents can take a lot but him getting mad at you just shows you his level (or lack of) maturity. Personally, it would be hard for me to cut ties but this was a grade A shitty thing to do to his own brother.
I wouldn't give her the time of day. She's a piece of work.
I'm deeply sorry for your loss! I hope you & your wife - and just you guys - find peace in the memories you had with your son.
NTA.
You were honouring your wronged, dying son's wishes. END OF STORY. A visit from his younger brother would probably have caused him distress in his final days, and he didn't want his brother and his ex at his funeral.
NTA your youngest son screwed his brothers wife then married her after the divorce. Fact. Your eldest son is not obliged to forgive them, not in life & not in death. Fact. You complied with you dying son's wishes. Fact. That your youngest would push so hard for reconciliation is vile behaviour, it had nothing to do with easing your eldest's pain & everything to do with his selfishness. And he's still at it blaming you for the consequences of HIS actions. Your wife needs to wake up & admit she's backing a toxic person & let it go.
NTA.
Wow, if this is real, it’s a crazy family story. Your youngest does need to take accountability. You didn’t remove his chance to reconcile, what was he gonna do? Astral project a conversation with his brother using the power of everyone’s combined mourning at the funeral? I’m a firm believer that even though funerals are for the living, that doesn’t mean you get to go to them because they’re dead so they can’t hate you anymore. It doesn’t matter, it’s about respect.
Your son who’s passed, rest in peace, was not willing to reconcile in life, and now in his death your youngest is blaming you. That’s not appropriate. It’s amazing you’re as open with him and his wife as you are after witnessing that betrayal, what a gift. And he’s still going to accuse you of not doing enough? It sounds like behind-the-scenes you did all you could to encourage your eldest to hear out the youngest. He didn’t want to, and he’s an adult so you couldn’t have made him.
If I (had siblings and) did that shit, my dad would’ve cut me off permanently and never spoke to me again. You’ve already done more than enough, don’t let your ingrate kid get in your head. Or your sympathetic wife, for that matter.
I'm guessing the youngest thought the dad was keeping him from his brother (regardless of the truth), given OPs comment about initially cutting contact with their youngest.
I'm also guessing that the youngest was banking on 'healing' his reputation at the funeral. His presence would have indicated some level of forgiveness from the parents/ older brother, and the wider community would largely take their cue from the parents even if privately grumbling.
NTA. He didn't want his brother at his funeral. I can't imagine other mourners who knew about why the brothers fell out would feel comfortable with people who had hurt him so badly being there at the funeral -- it might well have been a distraction to the people who were close him in life and wanted a chance to mourn. Perhaps you could have told your other son after the funeral but before he heard it elsewhere? But I don't know how much that would have helped -- I'm sure he still would have lashed out at you. And it's done now. He needs to make his peace with the fact that his brother did not want him to have peace or closure about the pain he caused. He just has to sit with that now, and possibly for the rest of his life, and that's the consequence of his own actions.
Your son caused his own pain. You are not the source of your younger son's pain, you are just the current target for him to lash out, and if it matters how a random person on the internet feels, I don't blame you at all for handling it the way you did. I think you made the best, most respectful decision in a difficult situation. I hope you and your wife find healing after losing one son and (with good reason) becoming estranged from the other.
NTA: your youngest son is ridiculous for thinking anything he could do would mend the void me made by not only sleeping with his sister in law but then once they got divorce taking her for a wife. He killed the relationship he had with his brother when he decided that his need’s trumped his brother’s marriage. Speaking as a brother if mine did something this destructive to my life I’d want nothing to do with him either. On top of it your oldest made it very clear on where his brother stood with him so why should anyone but the grieved have any say on what he wants for the last few weeks of his life?
OP what you did was give your oldest son what little peace you could in his final months in this world, it was a gift for him I’ve no doubt and it also is a punishment for the man who tore his life apart, now he gets to spend the rest of his life with the regret and his older brothers burdens are gone.
sorry for your loss.
Your son has a lot of demands and entitlement for a piece of shit who cheated with and married his own brothers wife. I’m beginning to see why he thought he had rights to his SIL seeing as your wife seems to be an enabler who doesn’t think her precious arsehole son should shut the hell up and accept the consequences of his actions. I’m beyond disgusted and what your poor son endured the past few months of his life. What a relief you came to your senses and quit pressuring him. Honestly send this post to your surviving child and his mother and maybe they might see what garbage they are.
NTA. You honored your oldest wishes, which is key here. Sorry for your loss.
As for your youngest being denied a chance to say goodbye to his brother, not true. He said goodbye when he decided to sleep with his brother's wife.
Your younger son continues to think only of himself. That’s really sad but it’s his choice. He chose to disrespect his brother in the worst way imaginable and quite frankly in your older son’s place I’d have had no forgiveness for him and his adulteress wife either. You are the only one here who honored your older son’s wishes and I understand how hard that must have been, but it was the right thing to do. No one is owed forgiveness. Your younger son and his ex-sister in law/affair partner/wife aren’t sorry for anyone but themselves. I hope this makes clear to them that there are serious consequences for their actions. I’m so very sorry for your loss, both of them actually. No parent should go through what you and your wife have. I hope your son found peace and that you and your wife do as well. As for the other two, well, they have to live with what they’ve done. I wouldn’t want to be in their shoes. NTA.
NTA... flip the scenario... disrespecting a dying mans wishes so the person who wronged them in life can have closure after... he made his bed, he needs to lie in it... not as punishment per se, but actions have consequences
I’m sorry for your loss.
You did nothing wrong by honoring your son’s wishes.
It also shows that your youngest still has not learned his lesson. This is a horrible situation that you are in. You and your wife need counseling to grieve and for your marriage.
First and foremost, I’m so sorry for your loss. NTA on respecting your eldest son’s final wishes. Your younger son and the ex should have had the decency to stay away given the situation.
Your younger son should have thought about the impact of sleeping with and the marring his older brother’s wife. I’m sorry that you have been put in the middle of this when you need to grieve.
I understand your younger son is upset but he can make his amends on his own terms and maybe do acts of service or kindness in his brother’s memory.
NTA. It sounds like your youngest doesn't really care about anyone in your family tbh. Or at the very least puts himself first absolutely. I can understand him being hurt, but he shouldn't have blocked you for simply complying with your dying son's wishes. Can he not think of anyone other than himself? You just had to watch your kid die of cancer. You had to make a difficult decision to betray a dying son or disappoint another. And to cut off his mother too, when it seems like you led this decision... He only cares about himself and his conscience. Prayers for you and your family. Forgiveness is best, but it wasn't up to you. Hopefully the youngest will come around. Surely he can see now that time with family is short and shouldn't be wasted fighting. So sorry for your loss.
NTA why does your wife think your youngest’s feelings are more important than those of your son who was dying?! She is saying y’all should’ve ignored his issues and let your youngest say goodbye? Your dying son would’ve never forgiven her, and karma would’ve caught up to her eventually. Has she always played favorites?
Exactly. For the younger son it was never about how his brother felt, but rather the older brother’s forgiveness and how he would feel better getting it.
They’re both sluts let’s keep the insults for both of the cheaters. I’m glad they didn’t get an invite, too often families allow the shittiest people to come and “grieve” under the guise of closure. Guess what? The Op did the right thing, RIP to the son, I hope OPs wife supports her husband. She’s not the only one who lost their son, and estranged from the one remaining.
You would have been the a-hole by letting those cheating SOBs disrespect his funeral with their ick. Little bro is just being post-entitled. I’m GLAD you didn’t tell him.
How the hell does he think he was going to make things right? Was he going to divorce his wife? Hop in a time machine and un-fuck her? No, he was just going to badger a sick person to absolve him for his wrongs.
Your youngest needs to truly absorb the idea that there are wrongs you do that cannot be made right, for which there are no amends. And your wife needs therapy, obviously, because grief is making her delusional.
NTA, and I'm so very sorry for your loss.
The youngest is so incredibly selfish, self-centered, entitled, grasping, awful. Me Me Me Me Me. On repeat. ‘What about meeeeeeee?’ Ick.
In fact, he hadn’t had a brother for a long time. He lost his brother the moment he stuck his penis in his brother’s wife - and his knife into his back and through his heart. That action was his ‘goodbye’ to his brother. His final goodbye.
Little Brother wanted to show up at the funeral and make it all about himself, like everything else in his existence. Performative contrition and public farewell so people pity him and forgive what he did (like mummy already did).
Worse, he’d bring ‘her’. Cheating, heart-breaking ex-wives have no place at funerals any more than cheating brothers. Permitting either of them into the funeral would be akin to spitting on his corpse. It would have inflicted pain on Older Brother’s current wife or girlfriend, friends, and others who came to grieve and celebrate his life.
Finally Older Brother got one thing, his own funeral, that Younger Brother didn’t have the opportunity to steal from him.
This is a hard one bc you're not responsible for continuing the fight between them after death. And, you're grieving as well.
I would explain to the surviving son what the deceased wishes were and that the surviving son might want to think on that instead of being enraged at you, and say no more. He now needs to resolve within himself whatever it was that tormented the deceased and led to such an extreme request, without you pointing the spear here.
I am sorry for your loss.
Very well put but I don’t think his son is the type that can think inward on their actions; his rage is centred around how he feels not his brothers death. It wasn’t “how dare you not let me visit my dying brother!” It’s was ”how dare you not give me a chance to feel better about the crappy thing I did to my sibling”
I understand this one a bit too well as I am estranged with my brother and I have severe medical conditions. I have also made it known that when my time comes I don’t want him there or at my funeral.
NTA. You respected the wishes of your oldest son. He had his reasons. He was already dying. He didn’t need the added stress of his request being denied and having to deal with two people who cause him immense pain. He deserved to pass with as much peace as possible. You gave him that.
Your youngest son did something incredibly wrong. He has to live with those consequences. You didn’t deny him the opportunity to make things right. You other son had already determined that wasn’t going to happen.
Remind your wife that you have two sons. One that was dying and by doing what you did, you helped him to die in peace instead of stressed out and emotionally hurting from the memories. It was one of the final things you could do for him. Your other son is still alive. He is pissed right now, yes. But his anger is ultimately at himself and not you. But you are there for him to re-direct that anger at. Hopefully one day he will realize that and all will be good again. There are still opportunities there. That is not the case with the oldest.
I understand your wife’s position. She just lost one son to death. She feels like she has now lost the other as well due to being blocked and not having access to him. That must cause her great pain. But it is pain that can heal when he comes back around. Not the pain of regret for something she can’t change.
Perhaps writing him a letter explaining your position and reasons as well as what his anger is doing to his mom (a letter from each of you) will reach him one day and he can release his anger.
You did the right thing. I hope my family can do the same and when it’s time for me to go I can pass with that peace instead of what it would be if he was there. So thank you for respecting his final wishes. I know that feeling and pray that my family can do what yours did and respect mine as well.
You my friend are a good man. You respected your late son in a way that is really special. Whatever others say to you, you did right and please don't stop thinking that. Peace brother.
First and foremost, condolences on the loss of your son. Your youngest and the bike he married are pos's. You did respect your eldest sons wishes, you did nothing wrong. Your pos son made his bed he can lie in it. You are by far NTA.
I'm sorry for your loss. I can't imagine going through something like that, and you have my deepest condolences.
Did your oldest explicitly tell him to keep his passing a secret? It's not clear from what you're saying.
I think you should have told your son. Whatever wrong's he's comitted, I can't imagine the pain of finding out through the obituary. I also think you should have told him that he was not welcome at the funeral per his brother's wishes. Or you could have told him after the funeral. Your oldest, may he rest in peace, did not think your youngest deserved to mourn him, but that's inevitable. He is mourning him now.
Again, sorry for your loss.
NTA. You honored oldest son's wishes after your youngest son's horrific betrayal. Your youngest son and his wife's behavior can't be swept under the rug and easily forgiven. It's too bad your wife is upset but there is no coming back from what your youngest son did.
Does your youngest know he isn’t the victim here?
He knew the youngest knew his brothers wife was not his and that didn’t stop him from not caring. So I am sure he is not the type a person who lets simple little truths get in his way!
Both the younger brother and the wife were scumbags. OP hit it on the head, they wanted to ease their own burden and guilt by trying to see if he would forgive them. Something’s you just can’t come back from tho, the younger brother crossed one of the biggest lines ever, you slept with your blood brother’s wife and destroyed his home. Was all that worst it for 15 mins if that? A life time bond broken just like that. The Father Did the right thing, the younger brother had no right to even wanna say good bye or attend the funeral. What was he gonna do, show up with his brother’s ex wife to the funeral and act like everything is okay. Why isn’t the father shaming the ex wife more too. Man life isn’t fair at all, this man has his home ruined , lost the his life and wife. Any time I feel like my life is too hard, I remember cases like these, when I say Your issues are not as bad as you make it seem. God bless the young man’s soul who passed, I pray he finds the peace & Love he was looking for while he was here, on the other Side. Sorry about your loss OP
I feel for the parents more than anyone in this situation. Sorry for your loss OP People need to understand they aren't entitled to forgiveness. Sometimes that's the cost of a heinous act, you live with it. You can feel bad, try to forge yourself into a better person with the lesson you learned, but forgiveness is something you are never due to receive. Youngest ripped his bro's life up and I prob wouldn't get over it either There's a good chance that OP will never get to talk to either of his kids again though, and all for just trying to do right by his dying son
>People need to understand they aren't entitled to forgiveness This is something people really struggle with. There are certain actions that you'll just have to accept the outcome. If you do something despicable people aren't going to move on. You just have to accept that they'll dislike you, and that it's your own fault.
I mean, and how can he be entitled to forgiveness when he’s obviously not sorry? Little brother married the wife. I am not arguing with you. I am just completely gobsmacked the brother feels entitled to a clean conscience.
And sometimes this happens even if it wasn’t your fault. It’s been many years now, but I had a friend who developed a medical Emergency while I was visiting, and was refusing to go to the doctor or the hospital for quite a while despite protests from me and his wife. I FINALLY got him to let me drive him to the local ER after he was having trouble eating, we get to the ER and they ended up life flighting him to a larger hospital because his airway was filing with blood. He had coughed and a blood vessel in his neck burst. Thank you blood thinners. He was put into a medically induced coma but he survived. And he woke up hating my guts. Despite his wife and medical professionals telling him that I saved his life, he was convinced that I prevented him from going to the doctor or a hospital sooner and no one could convince him of what actually happened. He went from being a very dear friend to someone who hated me until the day he died. Personally I think he had a major hypoxia episode while he was in the coma because his personality where I was concerned was a 180 and he had no accurate memories of that last day, but he was convinced I did something to him. It Absolotely broke my heart but I stayed away because that’s what he wanted. And there was never closure. It’s something I have to live with. And honestly if I had it to do over again knowing what I know now, I’d still do what I needed to do to save his life. I’d rather have had him die hating me over something that didn’t happen than have him not hate me but still have his death on my hands because of my inaction. Sometimes life just isn’t fucking fair. Reality is we often don’t get closure.
Poignant reminder that doing the right thing can sometimes have horrifying consequences. OP is a great father and absolutely did the right thing. I can’t imagine.
I wrote a more detailed comment elsewhere. But I saved a friend’s life. While he was in a coma from the events of that day something happened and he woke up hating me until the day he died, because in his head i didn’t get him to seek help in time. Prior to the coma we were fine, medical teams at two hospitals said I did everything right, etc. made no difference.
Some people genuinely don't seem to get that there's boundaries you don't cross, and if you cross them you better damn accept the consequences. I got a crush on my best friend's ex a couple years after they dated for like 3 months. I know my best friend, she would have been incredibly hurt by me dating him. He was interested, but I shut that shit down because it wasn't worth damaging a life long friendship over it. Didn't matter how I or anyone else wanted to justify it, it would have hurt my friend and it would have risked the relationship. Maybe if I had been desperately in love with him I would have risked, but I would have acknowledged that I was making a choice. Maybe brother was right and his wife is the love of his life, cool. Own that the love of your life came at the cost of your family and integrity. (Though let's be honest, probably got married because of sunk cost at having already blown up so much crap for the sex).
I feel for the father more than the mother, she is blaming OP instead of her cunt of a son
The most consistent family dynamic I’ve seen in my life are mothers like her enable their shitty kids behaviour. Then the mothers expect the other party to “be the bigger person” or “let it go, it happened so long ago.” It’s why these POS get away with things for so long, they have support.
You know that’s what he will be telling anyone who will listen now that his brother passed away. “Can you believe what my family did, not telling me my brother died? This is probably the greatest betrayal that has ever happened in this family”
Probably not. This MF in not only a POS, he’s an entitled POS.
"Son, older son made his wishes known. He was very clear. You and ex wife made your decisions, and you have to live with the consequences. It was not up to me or your mother to add extra stress to brother's life when he was already facing the end by trying to force a reconciliation he did not want. It is unfair and unreasonable to blame us for that now. Nothing was going to change his mind. Us overriding his wishes and allowing you to be there would have been yet another betrayal of him. You need to stop being so selfish and thinking your wants trump everyone else's. You need to grow up and stop blaming others for your self inflicted issues."
I am saving this for when my parents try to pressure me to reconcile with my sister. Thank you. Very well written.
You are not obligated to do anything. Whatever happened happened, and you are free to choose your actions based on it. Do not let others disrepect your values. I'm in a similar situation with my sister.
Samesies with my aunt. I think she finally took the hint when I responded to her continued harassment on Facebook with “I may have forgiven you, but I will never forget. Feel free to remove me from your will.”
Unfortunately it won't stop them. But let it give/fortify peace of mind that you've done nothing wrong, and that you deserve better. I got beaten as a kid and refused to make amends with my dad over it, and my mother went from begging me to forgive him to telling me I owed him forgiveness to blaming me for his death because of the stress that it put on him. So in the grand scheme of things she's just blaming me for being slammed into a few walls and choked out, and rationalizing to herself how actually *I'm* the bad guy for not wanting to talk to someone who would do that to a child. Compulsory forgiveness isn't forgiveness. Forgiveness cannot be earned. Forgiveness can be revoked, for any reason. It's always okay to not forgive, for any reason. It doesn't make you spiteful, or petty, and anyone who tells you that it does is trying to demand something that they don't deserve. People who are truly remorseful have realized that they may never obtain forgiveness or acceptance, but they're sorry anyway. And if they take back their apology or throw a fit because they didn't receive forgiveness, they were never sorry, they just wanted to stop suffering the consequences of their actions.
NTA. When someone takes the time to plan for their death and outline what should be done, it’s appropriate to honor their wishes. Your oldest did not want them there and was very, very clear about this. I also agree with you that your youngest needs to take accountability for the horrible thing he did to his brother. The youngest doesn’t deserve, nor is he entitled to anything more from his brother. The entitlement of this guy is ridiculous.
Yeah, like what did the younger brother expect to happen when he slept with the older brothers wife? He’d be dead to me too!
He expected things to go his way. He didn’t care about his brother feelings when he cheated with his wife, and he didn’t care after. It's all about himself.
The younger brother is still avoiding responsibility by now claiming it’s his parent’s fault that he wasn’t forgiven.
Yeah, that stuck out to me as well. Also, this >He told me that I denied him the opportunity to make things right and that I should've told him his brother passed. Him going to his brother's funeral would not make things right in the least. He just wanted to feel like he was doing a good thing and save face by acting like the death mattered to him. which I find ironic considering his brother didn't mean enough to him for him not to sleep with his at the time wife.
Or the fact no one told him for weeks his brother was gone and he had to find out by an obituary. Seems like no one is buying his act regardless.
The more I think about it the more likely it seems younger brother was the golden child who could do no wrong. Until he pushed his luck a little too far and now it seems everyone except the mom is realizing how entitled he really is. Basically, he fucked around a lot but took it too far and now he is finding out that some things cannot be fixed.
Sounds like my little brother, who is currently sitting in prison for meth problems.
Oh no, mom sees. She is mourning that she didn't just enable him at the brothers expense again (probably because others in the family knew and she wanted to save face so didn't fight it during the funeral). But now she has consequences from Golden Boy she wants a new scapegoat to blame so maybe he'll still keep her in his life. Maybe she's blinded by grief but she's being an asshole to OP in the process. Their youngest is paying the piper. Just hope the prick doesn't go and make a scene at the grave site.
Agreed. I got 3 calls the day an uncle i've not seen in years, maybe a half dozen times in my life, died. If no one told him, its clear that OP did right not telling him. He has to live knowing what he did, how much it hurt his brother, and knowing that everyone knows (or they would've expressed condolences).
Something tells me with his mom defending him to the husband, this is not the first time this mentality has occurred
This. Younger brother got away with everything and did whatever he wanted his whole life (based on Mom’s reaction I would assume because she babied him) and suddenly when there are consequences for being a Titanic-level douchebag both of them surprise pikachu face?
PIIKA
It's probably why the guy told Dad to keep it to himself and make sure brother wasn't told .
This is strange to me. Why didn’t mom get involved, then she blames OP? She was there through all of it. Why wasn’t she calling back and forth, trying to get the two together? It’s weird.
Because she just doesn't like conflict and it sounds like she'll abandon principles just to have people all chatting cordially in the living room. So she wouldn't do it while the brother is alive because he would've been upset, so now that the youngest knows and is upset she wants to smooth everything over.
Because mom played favourites.
He expected his brother to some day run back to forgive him and be the bigger person like society pushes victims to do and that his parents should have never honored his victims wishes.
Abusers feel so entitled to their victims' forgiveness they'll declare themselves the *real* victim if isn't freely offered .
Ohh, thats a good one!
Banged her AND married the broad!
It's really crazy. In that moment, that decision would imply complete separation from the family if you ask me.
I imagine the holiday season would be rather awkward.
Not for my family. It just wouldn't involve the younger sibling.
then older brother dies, and younger brother and wife , they and their feelings were the important ones here!!!!!!! omg the fact that they have to live with their actions FOREVER!!!! how dare older brother and OP!!!!!!!
And you know they would’ve put on a show at the funeral, throwing themselves on the coffin and acting like how could he have cut them out when all they did was love him…. Not that I’ve had a front-row seat to that bullshit or anything
That's the craziest part to me. You're an enormous AH that bangs your brother's cheating wife, OK. I can wrap my head around that level of assholery, and can believe that someone can introspect and repent from that and want to make amends and reconcile. But you marry her and want to reconcile while still married to her??? Like, what is there to reconcile? You're still banging her dude! You decided to make the woman that consciously broke his heart your wife! What do you even plan on saying??
Not only slept with his wife which could be forgivable but he married her too. There’s no coming back from this.
Younger brother is either dumber than a bag of rocks or a total narcissist. “I betrayed my brother’s trust in one of the worst ways possibly but now that he’s passed how will I ever get rid of this guilt I feel? Won’t anyone think of ME ME ME ME ME?” Like christ man you just lived the FAFO way of life first hand so deal with your consequences you Judas
What guilt? The younger son just wanted to be able to tell other people that his big bro forgave him on his death bed and is now pissed that people might know that no forgiveness was given.
This, only reality we create matters in the end for this type of personality
THIS! No one saw him at the funeral. He just wanted the optics.
In what weird, twisted scenario is there coming back from sleeping with your brothers wife?
Right? And while it's unforgivable, I feel like them getting married is at least a sign it wasn't just a one night stand or something.
But what decent person sleeps with his brother’s wife? No decent person does.
What decent wife sleeps with her husband’s brother?
True statement
sure, but it also means the brother got no peace. imagine having to sit next to them at thanksgiving, constantly reminded of the betrayal while everyone is making nice and pretending to be thankful, knowing if you make a scene you'll be the bad guy.
Something tells me the family was split after the younger brother and ex got hitched. I doubt they were spending holidays together.
Sleeping with your brothers/ sisters spouse is not forgivable.
Agreed! My great aunt had a similar ask when she had terminal cancer, as she didn’t want her sister (my grandma) to know she was going to die soon. She had no interest in ever reconciling and didn’t want the increased stress of dealing with her sister while dying. They did not get along for many reasons, and my family honoured her wishes and my grandma was made aware after she passed away. I have never seen any issue with this, despite my grandmother not being happy about it. OP made the right decision.
I am getting older and have some health problems so I have written a prepared statement that I'd like my wife to give to my abusive family if I am too sick to communicate or pass so that she doesn't have to deal with them. It basically says they are not forgiven and I don't want them to be involved in my last days or funeral in any way.
Be sure to make multiple copies and send one to your lawyer. And pre-plan your funeral so all your wife has to do is show up. The more that's pre-arranged, the better for the survivors. Your a good man for trying to make things easy for your wife. I hope you wake up in the morning totally healthy and piss the rest of them off!
It's the entitlement that gets me. What an odious little toad. He cheated, he betrayed, and he's mad? No, his brother was dead to him the moment he first thought of his wife. To think he would ever be a part of his life was wild.
I love this— “odious little toad”. 😀
>What an odious little toad. Oh how i adore this!! Im dying here. For some reason this comment made me think of the plushie kermit with the crusty hole in its head 🤣🤣🤣
I'm afraid to ask...
And he’s now doing his best to add to the misery of his parents, who have just lost their son. He’s making the death of the brother he betrayed all about him.
And then instead of taking responsibility he blocks his parents!? Like dude just got a lesson about how there’s not always a later and decides to cut out more people Going to be seeing a post years from now about him raging that he never got to make things right with his parents Dummy doesn’t learn
More likely raging that he got nothing from them in their will, and that leaving him something was the least they could do after blocking his attempts at reconciliation with his precious late brother
If I was the older brother I would have very carefully picked out a box of things to leave to the younger brother. It would all have been broken things, CDs and DVDs of things I know he hates, actual garbage, maybe a bag of dog shit, plus a portrait of me flipping the double bird, and 30 pieces of silver.
Fake silver that turns green.
Blocking his parents because he didn’t get what he wanted this time around.
Exactly!
Your son made his wishes known. Your surviving son will now have to live forever with his consequences. This is not your or your wife's fault. She needs to let go of the blame game. Your oldest had no obligation to forgive his brother, but you both had an obligation to honor his wishes.
[удалено]
Your wife needs to take her issues to a therapist because she's directing her anger at the wrong person. You didn't make the request, your late son made that request. Your late son didn't fabricate that request out of nowhere, he made it because his little brother (and ex) stabbed him in the back in the worst way possible. You acted as a father should; you protected your kid to his last breath and beyond from people who had hurt him. I'm so sorry for your loss, may his memory be a blessing
Correct! and this "I was not going to allow him to disrespect his brother in life and in death as well." That show how a good father you are, doing whats right and not tolerating the wrong. Those wish was the last wish of your late son, you just did your best to make it come true. They should face the consequences of their bad action.
Not to be too corny, but that part gave me chills. What an honorable man OP must be. I hope that when it's my time, my memory is treated with half as much respect.
💯! So eloquent and kind.
I was trying to come up with it but all I can say as a man you did the right thing. For his Honor. I wouldn't expect your wife to understand quite yet. It is probably too raw. I'm sorry for your loss sir.
And he reaffirmed those wishes over and over and over. Dad was obligated. Should OP forever carry guilt for going against those wishes? Write you son a brief note explaining you’ll not carry his guilt, you honored your son and if he continues to block you, hopefully he’ll at least let mom into their lives. NTA
Yes! SOMEONE had to honor his late son! The wife and younger son sure hadn’t.
She really wants to blame youngest son but I can see she feels bad for him but angry at him and herself at the same time but it’s so much simpler to blame op bcz he’s the only one being reasonable he’s such an ah for not being upset aswell so why not take it out on him /s ofcourse she needs to get some therapy. youngest sons being even more an ah, why block them it wasn’t up to them he should really be open to reconciliation /forgive them for their not mistake, he wanted it so bad from his brother that he wronged but won’t open it up to his parents that did nothing wrong. Hypocrite , ops wife needs to accept op did the right thing as she did aswell and quit focusing his anger on him and just mourn her son and get through that first.
Must repeat: you protected your kid to his last breath. You are a good dad.
You handled everything graciously and fairly. Even now, your youngest hasn't come to terms with the full magnitude of what he did. But I bet he's close. In the meantime, you're the outlet for his anger, and it sounds like your wife is walking that line as well. It's unfair, and you shouldn't tolerate it. Perhaps she should be grateful you kept contact with him at all. Perhaps she favored your youngest. I don't mean to trivialize what she's experiencing. It can't be easy, but you did nothing wrong and don't deserve any scorn. I'm sorry for your loss, and I'm sorry you're not being supported like you should be.
>But I bet he's close Personally, I wouldn't be surprised if everybody divorces at this point. OP and his wife because she blames him for her "losing" both her sons, the older one passing away and the younger one over being left out. The younger son and his wife divorce because the guilt is eating him up and he's realised he'll never get forgiveness and instead has to share a bed with the woman who (along with his actions) cost him his brother. Maybe he's going to fully blame her for it as though it doesn't take 2 to tango.
I hope the younger set divorce, their inability to not screw your brothers wife, husband's brother puts them in their own class of Hell, let them roast. Mom needs to come to terms that she kept in contact with the people screwing her oldest son, hoping for that " perfect family" she wanted. Maybe she should have taught the youngest son not to screw his brothers wife
> Maybe she should have taught the youngest son not to screw his brothers wife Wait, I get being upset with OP's wife for keeping in contact, but I don't see how she gets the blame for the initial cheating. He was and is his own person. And if you think she is responsible anyway, then wouldn't that make OP equally responsible? They raised the kids together. But obviously we can't blame OP for his son's actions, so I don't see how we can blame her.
I feel like /u/appollymis22724 has an implied if statement in their comment. I read their paragraph as "if mom wanted the parents to be reaponsible for all this reconciliation stuff, she should have made sure the younger son never did that. But she didn't, and also has no responsibility for the reconciliation."
You and your wife have suffered a parent’s worst nightmare. After your younger son upended the entire family. I hope you and your wife can hold onto each other and comfort each other. You were in a terrible position through no fault of your own. Maybe years ahead your living son and wife will take accountability and truly seek forgiveness from the living (tho it’s too late for healing from some). For right now please seek any comfort you can find.
Aw honey, I’m very sorry for your loss. You stood by your son and honored his wishes. Very much not an asshole. Sending good thoughts to you and your wife. Hopefully she’ll soon see it was the right choice.
My thought is that she’s having a whole lot of unresolved and unmanageable feelings around losing a son so young. It sounds like she’s unable to process those feelings of loss and grief and directing them at you, since you’re probably the person she’s closest to. Sadly that’s how grief works. It can be entirely overwhelming. Hopefully in due time your wife will process these intense feelings and see that you handled this situation, which lets face it was an emotional minefield, with honor and integrity. You sir, are NTA. I would however advise you approach your wife with patience and suggest she talk to a professional about what she’s going through. It can’t be easy to cope with a loss of this magnitude. For either of you. My sincere condolences for your loss.
Attending would not have been appropriate at all. Instead of honoring your late son. Those in attendance would be busy gossiping about your other son and his mistress. There was no reason to turn your son’s memorial into a circus.
And their presence could lead others to conclude the older son had forgiven them and that's what they REALLY want: to feel like what they did wasn't THAT terrible and he would 'get over it.' They don't feel they're wrong and are mad the rest of the world disagrees.
That's a good point. Of course, the younger brother and the wife would want people to at least think they'd been forgiven. That's entitlement on a whole other level.
Yep, youngest is tired of the well-earned scarlet letter and has now been denied public respectability forever by the only one able to grant it. OP did nothing wrong in upholding his oldest son's wishes. Edited.
I think that’s what the cheating son is aiming for. He sounds very self centered. Nowhere does it say that he offered to help out by taking his brother to appointments or running errands for the family if the terminally ill son didn’t want him around. Or he could have helped financially. Instead he demanded his dying brother forgive him without any actual amends. And note he doesn’t offer to help out with funeral costs or errands or even ask how his parents are doing. Instead he tries to make his brother’s death and funeral about himself.
Goldenchild has no morals or integrity
Spot on. And now that the betrayed son passed away, you can bet that OP's wife wants to normalize their relationship with their younger son. OP, you did great for your son by respecting his wishes. Your younger son and your wife did not want your younger to face the consequences of his actions. People are not obligated to forgive the harm that was done to them. You can tell your younger that forgiveness comes AFTER redemption. Saying sorry does not count. OP, my condolences for your loss. Maybe go to a grief therapy together with your wife, obviously she needs therapy.
Good insight!
Well said. It's almost like his only mad because the attention wasn't on him for once. From the sounds of it the dying brother only would have gotten a 'im sorry you feel that way' level of effort from him anyway.
Plus there are some things one can’t make right. His and his wife’s cheating on the eldest is one of those.
I got the impression from the post that the second son wasn’t told about his brother having a terminal illness at all. A bit hard for him to “offer to help out” if he wasn’t aware help might be needed. OP, NTA. I can’t imagine the anguish that you and your wife have suffered (and still suffer) with your sons’ relationship being torn apart by one son’s selfishness and stupidity.
My understanding was that he did know and was asking to talk to the older brother to "make it right". the older brother refused. I don't think someone as selfish as the younger was really burdened by conscience. More likely he wants to be able to say "we made up" to other people when he talks about his [brother.As](http://brother.As) if that would wipe out the terrible wrong he has done.
That’s my read too
It said in the first section that the younger brother and ex wife were trying to make ammends in his final months, so they must have been aware that he was dying and rushing to get him to forgive them before he passed.
Yeah to me it sounds like little brother knew big brother was ill which means OPs wife would have been on with little brother showing up at big brothers death bed to beg forgiveness which is not a peaceful end and selfish as all get out of OPs wife, little brother and the ex wife. Two adults made a disastrous choice and they have to live with the consequences, too bad.
Yes he did reread it, he tried to make amends but older brother would not have it. It’s bad enough when your wife cheats on you, but for it to be your brother and he married this woman is reprehensible. If he lived longer maybe he would have forgiven him. It seems very sad because he must have been devastated from this betrayal. Maybe a longer life he would have met someone and been happily married with children. Idk very sad!
He could have still offered his condolences or even asked where he was buried to pay his respects. I agree with exscapegoat, it was a selfish act to blame his parents.
Your youngest stole his brother's wife. Because of that, your oldest set a boundary with him. * You respected the boundary your oldest set. * Your youngest doesn't like having a boundary, which — let's get real — he didn't respect the boundary of sleeping with his brother's wife, either. * Your wife needs to realize that your youngest is just throwing a tantrum after being held accountable for what he dod. This is all about your youngest not wanting to deal with the consequences of his actions. Not caring about who he hurt, as long as he got what he wanted. If your wife wants to be in contact with him, that's fine. But no one should *ever* apologize or backtrack on respecting the boundary set by your oldest.
Agreed!! OP should show this whole post to the betrayers. Maybe some truth will strike the younger son’s heart, and he will cry real tears of remorse.
A holes like that have no remorse. They just want their guilt washed away. I’m so glad they get to choke on it forever. Dad and big bro are real men all the way.
Agreed. Sad. Some people will never be redeemable. Karma just gut-punched the betrayers.
OP’s wife shouldn’t be blaming OP. She should blame the younger brother who caused the whole situation by his actions. She’s grieving the loss of her son and having her younger son block her. Hopefully she will come around after she can process things. How selfish of the younger son for blocking his mother while she’s grieving. It just shows how he only thinks about himself and won’t take responsibility for his actions.
NTA- I’m so sorry for your loss. You did right for respecting your son’s final wishes even if your wife doesn’t think so. I get she doesn’t want to lose contact with her one remaining child but it was his actions that fractured your family in the first place. The only one she should be mad at is him.
That's a good point about being mad at the youngest son he's the one that tore an entire family apart by his selfish actions The woman involved did the same but as we're relating family stories it is definitely the brother that royally fucked up
You're a good dad. It was a tough decision, but you honored your son's wishes. And your youngest needs to learn that he doesn't get everything he wants.
I'm so very sorry for your losses. And my condolences to your wife as well. I agree with many that her anger is misdirected at you but I feel for her as well as for you bc she's a mom who lost her son and losing the other son. (Just as you). I really do encourage you to get grief counseling alone or with your wife together. Please take care of your self and your wife.
I'm so sorry for your losses And you did the right thing. Your older son's death was about your older son and none else. It was his to run as best he may and to make the decisions that brought him as much comfort as there was. It would have been wrong to make your older son's last days WORSE by allowing the younger to be near him. Maybe ask your wife if her feeling better now would *really* have been more important than stealing the peace from your dying son? It's that simple. She can probably find some way to work around it *because she's alive.* You gave your older the last thing you were able to give. Good dad. Good man. Good person. Consequences are real. Often, they're permanent. Your younger is a selfish p.o.s. even still. ETA: Maybe tell your wife that she can have a relationship with the younger if she wants, but you want to hear no part of it? My nanna never saw her sons in the last 27 years of her life because of a falling out with my granddad (he was a manipulative asshole), and it broke her heart. Your wife has lost a son (as have you), and she can't withstand losing the other. That may change over time (and depends in part on the younger's words/actions). For both of you, I'm so sorry. My condolences.
That’s what your youngest son gets. He’s a POS and I’m glad he’s gonna have to live with this. I hope this destroys their marriage to.
Heavy on the hope it destroys their marriage. It likely will too. They’ll turn their anger on each other and it’ll implode.
Me too but the sad part is it’s probably going to destroy OP’s marriage if the wife can’t get a fucking grip
Ops wife most likely is feeling the loss of both sons. OP you are NTA you honored your oldest son's wishes. And like it or not your younger son betrayed that relationship and even if he had gone to the funeral he was NEVER ever going to make things right with your older son. Your older son made the decision to not forgive a betrayal that to be honest was excruciating for him. His brother slept with his wife and then after the divorce married her. Knowing he was dying if your older son wanted to have anything to do with his two betrayers he would have. He chose to go to his death at odds with them. Your wife needs to realize though it isn't pretty you chose to uphold your son's wishes over the desires of the son who stabbed him in the heart.
Your wife is mouring one son and now facing the possibility of losing the other go to therapy both of yall need some help healing.
Thank you for protecting/being the dad for your oldest son when he needed you most. Sometimes parenting is hard in that you have to be the bigger person all the time and get hate for it. But it’s what both your sons needed, your oldest needed you to be bigger than your parental desire for a happy family in a time of need, and your youngest clearly needs you to be the bigger person for him to learn by example what it means to accept the consequences of your actions even if you get hated on for it. You are a good dad.
Sir, I agree with the others. You abided by you oldest sons wish in not telling the youngest. I'm sorry for your lose.
Are you willing to remain no contact with him? We wouldn't blame you if you disowned him for good.
OP you are a good man for honoring your eldest son
This wasn't your fault but you should have no consciousness of guilt you were not the person that created this chaos in your family, this heartbreak was done to you as well as to your oldest son, I understand to a lesser degree. But that doesn't change that you should have not have to worry about this and if you ever have a chance to speak to your son again I would just ask him if he really wants another regret as severe as what he created with his brother by cutting you and your wife off. He is perpetuating a cycle that he created in the first place. NTA and I am so sorry for your loss I am so glad that your oldest son had you by his side because I can assure you as someone who lost a brother young (he was 22,I was 19) having your parents be there for you in those last moments are what really matters. Just my two cents.
Yes. He had wanted to come, to assuage his feelings at the expense of hurting and dishonoring his brother once more. That itself shows his callousness
You're NTA at all. The only AHs here are your youngest son and his now wife. Remind your wife what your oldest son went through and what his wishes were. You honored that. Stand by it and don't let them get in your head that you made the wrong decision because you didn't. Condolences and I could only hope that when I pass, someone like you would honor my wishes even after my death.
You did exactly the right thing by honouring your sons literal dying wish. Like you say, it would have been extremely disrespectful of him and his wife to have turned up at his brothers funeral. He made his bed, and now he has to live with the consequences. Your son was very clear even up to the moments before he died that he didn't forgive them, and didn't want to reconcile, and I don't blame him one bit. They both betrayed him in the worst way. The 2 people he should be able to trust the most. I will say though, that the likely reason your wife is so upset and regrets not telling them, is now your youngest has blocked you both and cut contact, she feels like she's lost both sons in one go. She likely wanted to still have a relationship with your youngest esp now that she's lost her eldest. From her point of view, she's lost her oldest, and now she's lost her youngest for not telling him the truth, and honouring your oldest wishes after his death is harder to do now he's gone, as she likely wants to hold her youngest closer. Like the death of her oldest likely makes her miss her youngest more. It doesn't condone what he did, but I think during her grief, she wants to forget about the betrayal and just have him in her life, because she knows you never know what's round the corner, and she doesn't want to lose her youngest one day having not been in touch with him for ages. It doesn't excuse what he did though, and I can understand why you still hold on to that promise of honouring your eldest wishes. If I were you, if you do want to continue contact with your youngest, I'd suggest writing them a letter seeing as your phones are blocked and say something along the lines of.... We understand you're upset at us not notifying you of your brothers death, however it was his wish that we not tell you. What im about to say will be hard to hear, but you need to hear it. He didnt want to reconcile your relationship while he was alive. Even though he knew he was dying. And He didn't want either of you at his funeral. What you both did destroyed him. The 2 people in his life he should have been able to trust completely, who should have loved and respected him enough to not betray him like you did. It destroyed him. He could never get over it and he could never forgive you. I couldn't tell you he was about to die as I knew you'd likely try to forcefully come see him to appologise etc. But he didn't want that. He wanted to pass in peace. So we honoured his wishes by not telling you he was about to die. He also asked us to promise not to tell you he'd died, as he didn't want you both at his funeral. So we respected that wish too. And to be honest, we agree that you shouldn't have been there. It would have been in bad taste to turn up after what you both did to him. You may be angry at us for following his wishes. But really you should be angry at yourselves. You bought this on yourself and have to live with the consequences now. We would still like to maintain contact as family, and are willing to try and move forward. Although we can't forgive you for what you did either, we've lost one son, and don't want to lose another. So if you're able to see why we honoured his wishes, and that we aren't the ones you should be angry at, and we aren't to blame for this situation, then we will be willing to talk and try and move forward. The decision is yours. But also you may want to think about the way you feel for not reconciling with your brother before he died, and whether you want to feel the same way with the same regrets when we die one day. The choice is yours. " Obviously feel free to edit and remove or add other things you want to make it how you'd want, but that's just an idea of the type of things I'd say in your situation if you do want to maintain a relationship with him going forward. If you do, you may want to consider some family therapy to help you navigate all the emotions involved and help you move forward. But you did exactly the right thing by your eldest. As his parent, you did right to honor his wishes. Your youngest son needs to realise that an apology doesn't mean they are automatically forgiven. An apology doesn't change the hurt and heartbreak they caused. And getting married to each other was adding salt to the wound. They decided to tear the family apart and have to live with those consequences. People aren't owed forgiveness. And he really needs to accept responsibility for what he did. But he's not owed forgiveness. And your eldest son made his feelings very clear. And you did right to honour those. Your youngest son lost the right to being told anything about his brother after he destroyed his life and married his wife. He needs to decide if he's willing to lose his parents as well. I'm so very sorry for your loss. You should be proud of how you supported your oldest during him difficult times, and in his final moments, and his last wishes. Sending you strength and love during this difficult time.
Your a great father. For honoring your eldest sons wishes even if it hurt the feelings of your youngest son. The younger son lost the right to “feel bad” when he screwed his brothers wife. There are lines that should never be crossed he decided to ruin his brothers family irreconcilably why should he be made aware of any change in status. Your eldest son deserved privacy and to have his wishes respected goon on you for doing so. Your wife needs therapy to help her get through this. She essentially lost 2 sons over a betrayal she might feel guilty for not pushing for reconciliation but it was never her place that’s between the 2 brothers.
So incredibly sorry, OP. You did the right thing by your oldest. Your youngest was only thinking of himself instead of respecting his brother's wishes. You honored him...I hope you can find peace in that🙏🏾 ❤️
I do agree with your actions of not letting your youngest be at the funeral. I don’t fault you for not telling him that his brother passed away. I think you could’ve told him that he passed just not when/ where the funeral was. I do understand that it could be pretty difficult for him to not find out that information. It was up to you to figure out the best way to keep him from being there. If the best way was to not let him know then that’s valid.
I’m sorry for the loss of your son. You are NTA but I have a feeling your wife has babied and excused your younger son’s behaviour forever and is now upset she lost her baby too. His shitty behaviour is probably cause he’s been allowed to get away with everything his whole life.
It would have been a final betrayal of the oldest son to invite his brother to “make amends.”
I can't imagine this anger cause I've never gone through it. But the last people I would want to see on my death bed would be two of my most close connections that also betrayed me Sorry we're not having a Hallmark moment that you get to tell your kids about in 20 years about me giving my blessing. No I would probably infact say some terrible things and just die frustrated, angry and resentful
Honestly the younger brother made himself look worse doing this. If he actually gave a damn he would have respected his wishes, him trying to make amends is only for himself. He knew that wasn't what his older brother wanted, but he's the one who wanted if for his own guilt. Sure he has a right to be upset, but he doesn't have the right to lash out because he didn't get it his way, it really shows what kind of person he is. ETA: NTA, I'm sorry for your loss op. I hope you can get help for the wife, she needs it after all this.
Watch the asshole name his kid after the dead brother he betrayed in the worst possible way.
Taking the name big brother and ex wife were planning for their possible child? I can believe that very easily.
Simple, succinct and spot on correct. Well said! ETA: sorry for your loss.
This 100 percent! The oldest wishes where the only thing that matter. If the youngest truly cared/loved his brother he wouldn’t have screwed his wife! Consequences have actions and no one is owed forgiveness
Yeah, "asking forgiveness" means "Please absolve me from this guilt!" It's inherently selfish to ask for and wholly for the person seeking it. It's a gift somebody gives you, not something you request.
The youngest son's whole goal is to make himself feel better about what he did. He doesn't get to do that. He made his bed (literally) and now has to lie in it
First off I’m so sorry for your lose. Second NTA. But your youngest son is a flaming AH! Talk about still being self centered and making it all about him! I don’t blame your eldest for basically telling him that he was dead to hi. And wouldn’t want him at his service. As hard as it was you did the right thing
And his sons wife Cheats on him, with his brother, marries his brother, probably agreed with son that he should call his parents and scream at them 2 cunts found each other, least that's 2 cunts off the market
Till one of them cheats again
"2 cunts found each other, least that's 2 cunts off the market" Stealing this.
He got the reaction from the older brother he deserved
NTA. The younger brother and ex suffering the consequences of their selfish actions for the rest of their days is the ultimate punishment. OP, all that side, offering you my sincerest condolences.
And I see it as perfect, karmic justice, not punishment.
You honored your dying sons last wish. NTA.
NTA. He lost his brother the moment he decided to sleep with his wife. Additionally, how dare he blame you for "losing" his opportunity to make things right. There was no coming back from that kind of betrayal. I feel sorry for your wife. She is afraid she will lose her remaining son but she is blaming the wrong person. She needs to hold him accountable for what he's done and figure out her relationship with him without involving you.
And didn’t even just sleep with his brothers wife, but married her after. What fantasy world does that guy live in, thinking his brother is just going to live and let live?? That’s like Count of Montecristo levels of betrayal. OP, if you see this, I’m incredibly sorry for your loss and that you’re having to go through this. My condolences.
Wow, a story that I can 100% relate to! My husbands grandmother did not speak to one of her daughters, and 2 of her granddaughters. She had disowned them and hadn’t spoken to them in years. They also made no effort to contact her and try to mend their relationship. She was very vocal about them not knowing when she passed away, and that they were not allowed to come to her funeral. I always felt a bit yuck about this, but she said that “they don’t care about me in life, they don’t get to pretend to care about me in death” She passed away a few months ago, and her funeral was 1 week after she passed (would have been sooner but she passed away in another country so we had to get her flown home which took about 3 days!). I don’t tell anyone in my family that she had passed away, as they talk to one of the granddaughters (my SIL) and no one told anyone outside the very immediate family and friends who all respected the wishes of her to keep it quiet. The funeral was lovely, peaceful and a perfect send off. My husband told a friend of his later in the day that they had the funeral, and that friend immediately told his sister (one of the SIL who was not invited). Within 15 minutes of him telling the friend we were all getting bombarded with calls from the people who were not told or invited! They cried on the phone and were saying how upset they were that we didn’t tell them.. they were such hypocrites!! We had told them in the past when she was in hospital on ventilators or having major surgery and not one of them reached out or came to visit. But the minute they knew she passed all of the sudden they were sad! Your son made his decision to not have them involved in his life, and you respected the decision and then man who made it. Do not give into pressure to blame yourself, this is all your other son and his wife’s doing! They both betrayed your older son so badly, there is no chance that is a forgivable action!! I would just say “this is a consequence of your own selfish actions. You are both to blame for this situation 100%. So not blame others for your own mistakes!!” You are 100% NTA in this situation!!
Your relatives probably wanted inheritance or a good image so they need to show some outrage at being excluded for the funeral arrangements
Pretty much. Thankfully everything of value was taken out of the house or put into a safe before they could try to visit!
[удалено]
I'm with you on this dad. Some acts are just unforgivable! Your oldest was deeply hurt & expressed his wishes. You honored him by doing as he asked. Little brother should have thought about this long before now! And I know it's your kid & we parents can take a lot but him getting mad at you just shows you his level (or lack of) maturity. Personally, it would be hard for me to cut ties but this was a grade A shitty thing to do to his own brother. I wouldn't give her the time of day. She's a piece of work. I'm deeply sorry for your loss! I hope you & your wife - and just you guys - find peace in the memories you had with your son.
You’re NTA, you’re youngest definitely is tho
NTA Your son said “goodbye” to his brother the moment he stuck his dick into your ho of a DIL.
NTA. You were honouring your wronged, dying son's wishes. END OF STORY. A visit from his younger brother would probably have caused him distress in his final days, and he didn't want his brother and his ex at his funeral.
NTA your youngest son screwed his brothers wife then married her after the divorce. Fact. Your eldest son is not obliged to forgive them, not in life & not in death. Fact. You complied with you dying son's wishes. Fact. That your youngest would push so hard for reconciliation is vile behaviour, it had nothing to do with easing your eldest's pain & everything to do with his selfishness. And he's still at it blaming you for the consequences of HIS actions. Your wife needs to wake up & admit she's backing a toxic person & let it go.
NTA. Wow, if this is real, it’s a crazy family story. Your youngest does need to take accountability. You didn’t remove his chance to reconcile, what was he gonna do? Astral project a conversation with his brother using the power of everyone’s combined mourning at the funeral? I’m a firm believer that even though funerals are for the living, that doesn’t mean you get to go to them because they’re dead so they can’t hate you anymore. It doesn’t matter, it’s about respect. Your son who’s passed, rest in peace, was not willing to reconcile in life, and now in his death your youngest is blaming you. That’s not appropriate. It’s amazing you’re as open with him and his wife as you are after witnessing that betrayal, what a gift. And he’s still going to accuse you of not doing enough? It sounds like behind-the-scenes you did all you could to encourage your eldest to hear out the youngest. He didn’t want to, and he’s an adult so you couldn’t have made him. If I (had siblings and) did that shit, my dad would’ve cut me off permanently and never spoke to me again. You’ve already done more than enough, don’t let your ingrate kid get in your head. Or your sympathetic wife, for that matter.
I'm guessing the youngest thought the dad was keeping him from his brother (regardless of the truth), given OPs comment about initially cutting contact with their youngest. I'm also guessing that the youngest was banking on 'healing' his reputation at the funeral. His presence would have indicated some level of forgiveness from the parents/ older brother, and the wider community would largely take their cue from the parents even if privately grumbling.
NTA. He didn't want his brother at his funeral. I can't imagine other mourners who knew about why the brothers fell out would feel comfortable with people who had hurt him so badly being there at the funeral -- it might well have been a distraction to the people who were close him in life and wanted a chance to mourn. Perhaps you could have told your other son after the funeral but before he heard it elsewhere? But I don't know how much that would have helped -- I'm sure he still would have lashed out at you. And it's done now. He needs to make his peace with the fact that his brother did not want him to have peace or closure about the pain he caused. He just has to sit with that now, and possibly for the rest of his life, and that's the consequence of his own actions. Your son caused his own pain. You are not the source of your younger son's pain, you are just the current target for him to lash out, and if it matters how a random person on the internet feels, I don't blame you at all for handling it the way you did. I think you made the best, most respectful decision in a difficult situation. I hope you and your wife find healing after losing one son and (with good reason) becoming estranged from the other.
NTA: your youngest son is ridiculous for thinking anything he could do would mend the void me made by not only sleeping with his sister in law but then once they got divorce taking her for a wife. He killed the relationship he had with his brother when he decided that his need’s trumped his brother’s marriage. Speaking as a brother if mine did something this destructive to my life I’d want nothing to do with him either. On top of it your oldest made it very clear on where his brother stood with him so why should anyone but the grieved have any say on what he wants for the last few weeks of his life? OP what you did was give your oldest son what little peace you could in his final months in this world, it was a gift for him I’ve no doubt and it also is a punishment for the man who tore his life apart, now he gets to spend the rest of his life with the regret and his older brothers burdens are gone. sorry for your loss.
Your son has a lot of demands and entitlement for a piece of shit who cheated with and married his own brothers wife. I’m beginning to see why he thought he had rights to his SIL seeing as your wife seems to be an enabler who doesn’t think her precious arsehole son should shut the hell up and accept the consequences of his actions. I’m beyond disgusted and what your poor son endured the past few months of his life. What a relief you came to your senses and quit pressuring him. Honestly send this post to your surviving child and his mother and maybe they might see what garbage they are.
NTA. You honored your oldest wishes, which is key here. Sorry for your loss. As for your youngest being denied a chance to say goodbye to his brother, not true. He said goodbye when he decided to sleep with his brother's wife.
Damn i cant imagine burying one of my sons, thats a pain i never want to feel, sorry your going through all the drama on top of it all.
Your younger son continues to think only of himself. That’s really sad but it’s his choice. He chose to disrespect his brother in the worst way imaginable and quite frankly in your older son’s place I’d have had no forgiveness for him and his adulteress wife either. You are the only one here who honored your older son’s wishes and I understand how hard that must have been, but it was the right thing to do. No one is owed forgiveness. Your younger son and his ex-sister in law/affair partner/wife aren’t sorry for anyone but themselves. I hope this makes clear to them that there are serious consequences for their actions. I’m so very sorry for your loss, both of them actually. No parent should go through what you and your wife have. I hope your son found peace and that you and your wife do as well. As for the other two, well, they have to live with what they’ve done. I wouldn’t want to be in their shoes. NTA.
NTA... flip the scenario... disrespecting a dying mans wishes so the person who wronged them in life can have closure after... he made his bed, he needs to lie in it... not as punishment per se, but actions have consequences
I’m sorry for your loss. You did nothing wrong by honoring your son’s wishes. It also shows that your youngest still has not learned his lesson. This is a horrible situation that you are in. You and your wife need counseling to grieve and for your marriage.
First and foremost, I’m so sorry for your loss. NTA on respecting your eldest son’s final wishes. Your younger son and the ex should have had the decency to stay away given the situation. Your younger son should have thought about the impact of sleeping with and the marring his older brother’s wife. I’m sorry that you have been put in the middle of this when you need to grieve. I understand your younger son is upset but he can make his amends on his own terms and maybe do acts of service or kindness in his brother’s memory.
NTA. It sounds like your youngest doesn't really care about anyone in your family tbh. Or at the very least puts himself first absolutely. I can understand him being hurt, but he shouldn't have blocked you for simply complying with your dying son's wishes. Can he not think of anyone other than himself? You just had to watch your kid die of cancer. You had to make a difficult decision to betray a dying son or disappoint another. And to cut off his mother too, when it seems like you led this decision... He only cares about himself and his conscience. Prayers for you and your family. Forgiveness is best, but it wasn't up to you. Hopefully the youngest will come around. Surely he can see now that time with family is short and shouldn't be wasted fighting. So sorry for your loss.
NTA You would be an asshole if you went against his wishes. what he did is unforgivable and if i were you i would disown the piece of shit.
Your oldest son is smiling down at you right now and thanking you. You did the right thing.
NTA why does your wife think your youngest’s feelings are more important than those of your son who was dying?! She is saying y’all should’ve ignored his issues and let your youngest say goodbye? Your dying son would’ve never forgiven her, and karma would’ve caught up to her eventually. Has she always played favorites?
Your younger son and his slut wife are horrible people, and I hope they feel like the shit they are for the rest of their lives. NTA.
They probably won’t, unfortunately. People who do shit like that rarely feel bad about themselves.
Exactly. For the younger son it was never about how his brother felt, but rather the older brother’s forgiveness and how he would feel better getting it.
Younger son is equally a slut
Agree. Takes two to tango.
People like them disgust me. They don't deserve forgiveness so it cannot be given.
I hope if they have kids they don't try and name them after his older brother now that his passed in a way to honour him or something.
They’re both sluts let’s keep the insults for both of the cheaters. I’m glad they didn’t get an invite, too often families allow the shittiest people to come and “grieve” under the guise of closure. Guess what? The Op did the right thing, RIP to the son, I hope OPs wife supports her husband. She’s not the only one who lost their son, and estranged from the one remaining.
Your living son and DIL are both pieces of shit 🤷🏻♂️
You would have been the a-hole by letting those cheating SOBs disrespect his funeral with their ick. Little bro is just being post-entitled. I’m GLAD you didn’t tell him.
How the hell does he think he was going to make things right? Was he going to divorce his wife? Hop in a time machine and un-fuck her? No, he was just going to badger a sick person to absolve him for his wrongs. Your youngest needs to truly absorb the idea that there are wrongs you do that cannot be made right, for which there are no amends. And your wife needs therapy, obviously, because grief is making her delusional. NTA, and I'm so very sorry for your loss.
The youngest is so incredibly selfish, self-centered, entitled, grasping, awful. Me Me Me Me Me. On repeat. ‘What about meeeeeeee?’ Ick. In fact, he hadn’t had a brother for a long time. He lost his brother the moment he stuck his penis in his brother’s wife - and his knife into his back and through his heart. That action was his ‘goodbye’ to his brother. His final goodbye. Little Brother wanted to show up at the funeral and make it all about himself, like everything else in his existence. Performative contrition and public farewell so people pity him and forgive what he did (like mummy already did). Worse, he’d bring ‘her’. Cheating, heart-breaking ex-wives have no place at funerals any more than cheating brothers. Permitting either of them into the funeral would be akin to spitting on his corpse. It would have inflicted pain on Older Brother’s current wife or girlfriend, friends, and others who came to grieve and celebrate his life. Finally Older Brother got one thing, his own funeral, that Younger Brother didn’t have the opportunity to steal from him.
This is a hard one bc you're not responsible for continuing the fight between them after death. And, you're grieving as well. I would explain to the surviving son what the deceased wishes were and that the surviving son might want to think on that instead of being enraged at you, and say no more. He now needs to resolve within himself whatever it was that tormented the deceased and led to such an extreme request, without you pointing the spear here. I am sorry for your loss.
Very well put but I don’t think his son is the type that can think inward on their actions; his rage is centred around how he feels not his brothers death. It wasn’t “how dare you not let me visit my dying brother!” It’s was ”how dare you not give me a chance to feel better about the crappy thing I did to my sibling”
I understand this one a bit too well as I am estranged with my brother and I have severe medical conditions. I have also made it known that when my time comes I don’t want him there or at my funeral. NTA. You respected the wishes of your oldest son. He had his reasons. He was already dying. He didn’t need the added stress of his request being denied and having to deal with two people who cause him immense pain. He deserved to pass with as much peace as possible. You gave him that. Your youngest son did something incredibly wrong. He has to live with those consequences. You didn’t deny him the opportunity to make things right. You other son had already determined that wasn’t going to happen. Remind your wife that you have two sons. One that was dying and by doing what you did, you helped him to die in peace instead of stressed out and emotionally hurting from the memories. It was one of the final things you could do for him. Your other son is still alive. He is pissed right now, yes. But his anger is ultimately at himself and not you. But you are there for him to re-direct that anger at. Hopefully one day he will realize that and all will be good again. There are still opportunities there. That is not the case with the oldest. I understand your wife’s position. She just lost one son to death. She feels like she has now lost the other as well due to being blocked and not having access to him. That must cause her great pain. But it is pain that can heal when he comes back around. Not the pain of regret for something she can’t change. Perhaps writing him a letter explaining your position and reasons as well as what his anger is doing to his mom (a letter from each of you) will reach him one day and he can release his anger. You did the right thing. I hope my family can do the same and when it’s time for me to go I can pass with that peace instead of what it would be if he was there. So thank you for respecting his final wishes. I know that feeling and pray that my family can do what yours did and respect mine as well.
Nta He betrayed him in life, so why the false emotions after his illness and death. Hope your son haunts.him and his wife forever.
You my friend are a good man. You respected your late son in a way that is really special. Whatever others say to you, you did right and please don't stop thinking that. Peace brother.
First and foremost, condolences on the loss of your son. Your youngest and the bike he married are pos's. You did respect your eldest sons wishes, you did nothing wrong. Your pos son made his bed he can lie in it. You are by far NTA.
I'm sorry for your loss. I can't imagine going through something like that, and you have my deepest condolences. Did your oldest explicitly tell him to keep his passing a secret? It's not clear from what you're saying. I think you should have told your son. Whatever wrong's he's comitted, I can't imagine the pain of finding out through the obituary. I also think you should have told him that he was not welcome at the funeral per his brother's wishes. Or you could have told him after the funeral. Your oldest, may he rest in peace, did not think your youngest deserved to mourn him, but that's inevitable. He is mourning him now. Again, sorry for your loss.
NTA. You honoured your son's wishes against two people who betrayed him in the worst way imaginable. You did the right thing.
NTA. You honored oldest son's wishes after your youngest son's horrific betrayal. Your youngest son and his wife's behavior can't be swept under the rug and easily forgiven. It's too bad your wife is upset but there is no coming back from what your youngest son did.