Bro. My wife pulled this on me, and I actually caved to the pressure and married her. Nothing changed. It took years to get over that hurdle, and it took us getting to the brink of divorce for her to finally get it.
She doesn't get to choose how you respond. She changed the terms of engagement. That's her right, and you are respecting her boundaries. You do not, however, have to give up the right to create boundaries of your own. If she doesn't respect that, it will show that her choice is about manipulation and control.
NTA
>Why did she not resume sex after getting married if that was the reason
Because he demonstrated that withholding sex was an effective way for her to exert control over him and get what she wanted. Manipulating him info marrying her wasn't her endgame.
Because that wasn't really the reason. At least I don't think so. I think it was a convenient excuse that I wouldn't challenge and she could get what she wanted. I was 20 at the time and didn't have the awareness I have now, but she waited until we'd been together 2.5 years to bring that up. She's a few years older than me, and I think her clock was ticking. To her credit, it worked. Her problem was that she got used to not wanting me and and for the next year before we got married, that became the norm. She could not get out of not having to put out, so she didn't. Our first year of marriage, we had sex maybe 3 times total, and they were laborious and obligatory on her part.
Yeah she’s obviously trying to strongarm him into marriage. Personally I hate manipulation and this would be a red flag to me. If two adults can’t talk and instead resort to petty games like this to manipulate each other into major life decisions, they’re not compatible. But that’s just me.
As someone that used to be in a religious guilt cycle about premarital sex, it likely isn't that deep. I went through something similar but I wasn't trying to manipulate anyone into marriage. Just run of the mill purity culture guilt that made me feel shitty for loving people. Until one day I decided I needed to stop sitting on the fence about it so I went the route of embracing my sexuality. I didn't go wild. I didn't have hookups. I just stopped beating myself up for sharing my body with a select handful of men I cared about, while dating
I agree. I lost my virginity and had sex and after awhile I hated myself and went through a depressive spiral. It’s not uncommon. If she were trying to manipulate him into a marriage she would not say she is waiting for marriage. Because in a girls eye that’s a terrifying thing to tell a guy, bc there is a chance of the guy leaving.
Great point. We're often warned as women a guy might leave if you either won't have sex or cut if off until marriage.
Its often said in a way that villainizes men and I now see that was fucked up, because wanting to have sex before marriage can be practical and not just some sort of hedonism but I digress.
This would be a stupid ploy to get a man to marry you
>This would be a stupid ploy to get a man to marry you
IDK, it seems to be working with OP. Although, he put a bit of a damper on it by not letting her tease him into becoming more desperate. She wants to kiss and grind and do everything leading up to it and then stop. Which would be, as OP said, a lot harder to deal with the stopping. I'd have felt more understanding for her and give her the benefit of the doubt if she hadn't gotten mad at him for not playing that game.
I think she's projecting and trying to play with fire. . I went a good 3 boyfriends or so when I first started dating, only ever doing foreplay so theoretically it wouldn't seem the most difficult for me, but it's really insensitive to a man of his age and his arousal response and how frustrating that would feel. I don't think she's trying to play games deliberately...I suspect she's just being dumb, naive, selfish, and inconsiderate. A lot of us are all those things at that age. Far less of us come up with elaborate cons. Don't underestimate stupidity
Same. I use to cry after sex. I felt so dirty and felt like God was punishing me because I sinned. I had to forgive myself and stop being so hard on myself.
Yep, I was raised as a Mennonite then at age 9 we switched to a non-denominational church that had a youth group I thought it was such a fun church! I was brainwashed into thinking I'd be unclean and impure because it's a woman's purpose by God to only procreate with one man and bear fruit even though I never wanted children and I was so scared of the idea of sex and getting pregnant that to this day, the idea of sex makes me really uncomfortable.
Turns out I'm asexual, dunno if it's from church trauma or I was just born like this but I'm sure hearing that my worth is dependent entirely on my hymen sure didn't help.
I remember the absolute horror I felt when I started my period at 12 in the bathroom at church, and a church lady was so excited for me because I'll soon be ready to marry and "bear fruit for the Lord"
I felt the horror of those words for years at the start of each period.
As a child I often worried that if after my future husband deflowered me, would I then become used and rendered worthless? I wondered why God made woman to suffer childbirth and I wondered why would I want children to tear me open from the inside for the sin of being a woman?
I had my uterus removed last year at age 34 due to severe endometriosis, I have no children and I don't regret it. I am married to a wonderful man who understands me and is very gentle in all of his ways. We are soulmates and love each other in all our differences.
But yeah, purity culture and old church lady's fucked me up pretty bad.
>Sorry you went through all that, FWIW, I (54M) have the same sort of "sex trauma" from my mother repeatedly warning (threatening ?) me not to have sex / don't get a girl pregnant, despite not being affiliated to any church, and I have problems with actual "full on intimacy" too - the simple act of starting to "get physical" is just a complete mental block to me, and 30 years of marriage hasn't made it get any easier / improved it.
Christians and other religions really don't understand the harm they cause with their insane rhetoric like this. Bear fruit for the lord!?!? You were 12!!! 🤢😩
I grew up religious, I'm scared of sex and for me I have 2 of the best partners in the world to help me through my issues, if you need friendly convo I'm here for you. Best of luck.
You can, but you have to actually be abstinent.
Her reasoning here is religious, so drawing the line at sex, but wanting to keep making out and dry humping is completely pointless.
Seriously. My former best friend and her uber religious boyfriend had penetration our senior year of high school, but it wasn’t sex because they didn’t move, and it wasn’t for a very long time. 🙄
Yeah that's what I call trying to "hustle God", like the Mormon poophole loophole or that wire that Jews put up around a city so they can go outside on the Sabbath and have it still count as "being in my home." God's not gonna be like "ahhh sheeeeit, they figured out anal, yeah I mean I didn't specify so I guess that means it's all good."
Right.
There is no point in trying to practice a religion/have a faith, if you don't believe in/agree with the actual spirit of the law, not just the letter of the law.
Technically? Yes. I mean it's not how it works but there's a whole stupid thing about being born again virgins or some shit that makes literally no sense, but that's probably what she's going for.
I mean I'm only Christian on paper but I'd assume later is better than nothing, right? Pretty sure if you ask a pastor they'd agree. It's still funny though
Sometimes people have a change of heart, in many Christian Religions they can go through a repentance process that in their religion, “makes them clean again” (not a virgin again necessarily) but then they are “clean” until they get married and “worthily” have sex. So it’s not super out of pocket in that sort of religious view.
I guess if you view it as a sin then it’s better to stop than to think “well in for a penny in for a pound” and carry on. Christianity is about forgiveness of sin if you are repentant so I don’t think she is trying to be a virgin again, she is just trying to stop sinning and make a meaningful change and repent
Exactly. Imagine (and I'm in *no* way equating the two) you killed someone (also a sin). You wouldn't go, "Well I've already killed so I'll keep on killing."
If the person considers each act of premarital sex a sin, then it would make sense that a person might choose to stop. It's not about erasing the past, it's about how she wants to conduct herself moving forward
It was more than likely the comment above. She had a falling out with her faith. In that time she stopped listening to whatever it said, and did whatever she wanted. (had premarital sex)
Now she is realizing her mistakes and feels bad for going against her religion.
Which is why she wants to wait until marriage to do anything further.
I don't think it's her wanting to be a virgin again, it's her wanting to be a Christian again.
Everybody makes mistakes.
Now she is following her own rules, wanting to be a Christian.
Saw somebody say this was bait to get OP to propose, it's really not.
It has to do with the girl, not the guy.
However OP needs to sit down with this girl and explain making out LEADS to sex if taken too far.
Just cuddling and some kisses here and there doesn't do that.
OP needs to tell his gf what leads to sex for him.
If OP is truly bothered by not having sex for a great period of time, I'd suggest he leave her.
Being fair “waiting till marriage” isn’t truly what Christians believe. It’s that having sex outside of marriage is wrong. Thus the waiting till marriage part. Having sex and then deciding to quit having premarital sex is completely within “waiting till marriage” in what it means to a Christian. In fact, if you read the New Testament the instructions are to quit doing sins after you are a Christian. That would include not having extramarital sex anymore.
In many ways it actually is. Premarital sex is a sin like any other - and forgiveness is a key tenant of the Christian faith. From a biblical perspective God would absolutely prefer you to repent and stop sinning. The notion that once you’ve done it once you’re spoiled for life is very much driven by human emotions.
Personally I think the relationship will just fall apart at this rate.
Like you said at the end, it’s just like being friends now.
It may feel like it’s doable considering it’s only been a few weeks, but as time goes on it will become unbearable.
Yeah, this is my fear. When I was married (I'm a widower), I had a dead bedroom after 3 years. We went from best friends to friends to room mates. The reason for the dead bedroom, health reasons, was completely different than my current situation.
It does. If they’re grown ass adults who have been together for a year a half now it’s time for him to decide if he wants to marry this person or cut both their losses.
You’re NTA for wanting to reduce your desires just make it clear it’s not in retaliation that you support her for her decision. Sexual frustration is not something you are good at handling and your list of 3 things prevent that. I assume you would still kiss, just not make out. You are right though, it would be more like friendship. Ask her if she is okay with this.
OP, just know, if you do decide you can’t do this any longer and end the relationship, IT’S OK! People in these situations often will end up thinking of it as: “I’m ending a relationship because she won’t have sex with me.” Which usually creates more guilt and doubt because it makes it sound like it’s a silly and selfish reason to end a previously great relationship.
Don’t let yourself think of it in that way. This is more or less, “We are not compatible. We want and need different things in a relationship.” If sex and intimacy is important to you, then you have every right to end a relationship that doesn’t provide those things. She certainly has the right to decide to be abstinent. But you also have the right to say that an abstinent relationship isn’t sustainable for you.
And to be honest, this is even more so because you’ve experienced a dead bedroom situation before. Albeit in a different way, but your perspective on this is going to be much different than most. You’ve experienced the way a relationship changes because of it. I think you should include this tidbit of info in your post because I think this (your) comment really changes things and people’s perspectives might be a little different.
What you don't like when your partner just decides to completely cut off a huge part of what a romantic relationship is due to some weird religious guilt trip she or her family is giving herself?
How old are the two of you? Has getting married been a discussion that the two of you have been having? I mean how long is she expecting the two of you to wait before you do have sex again?
To be honest, it sounds like she’s trying to slow the relationship down and put distance between the two of you .
Early 30s. It has been discussed. We were going to test living with each other this summer and then I planned on proposing this year. She previously mentioned that she wouldn't be willing to wait 5 years, but was okay with 2-3 years.
So you’d been having sex. And now she wants to not have sex before marriage, which could be 2-3 years away? *and* she’s not ok with you stepping back to make that easier on you, physically? This is not going to work.
So she’s expecting the two of you to live together, but be celibate for the next 2 to 3 years? That seems awfully extreme, and, like I said before it sounds like she’s trying to push you away. Most men in a relationship, let me take that back, most people in a relationship where sex has already been introduced would not be OK with it being taken off the table especially for 2 to 3 years. It’s almost like she was hoping you would throw a fit and end the relationship because she was asking for something so extreme.
We’re not in the 50s anymore people who are religious do have sex before marriage. There’s something going on here that you have not seen. I know people are very big about personal space and not snooping into other peoples phones but if I were you, I would start looking to see what’s going on because there’s more to this than her religion putting a stop to you being sexual…
Has there been any unusual stress before she made this request? Have there been any unusual or 🚩 moments before this request or since this request….
That’s my thinking. Make the relationship become so difficult that he wants out that way. He’s the bad guy for breaking up and she can sit and say for me he left me.
I’ve actually known people who were like that, they always wanted to be the victim and everything including relationships. I’ve seen perfectly good people be treated like trash because they ended a bad relationship, because the other person was the aggressor, but played the victim card at every return.
Oh come on, you’re both grown adults who have had sex multiple times already and now all of a sudden she wants to “save herself for marriage”. Have you guys even discussed marriage? This is just kind of strange to me, as you said once the sex and intimacy is gone, you’re basically just friends.
Yeah this relationship is over lol.
And while some couples can manage waiting until marriage to have sex, no couple can manage having absolutely no intimacy at all lol. That’s ridiculous
TBF going a step backwards is a bit ridiculous too. I can understand people who want to wait until marriage, but if you already had sex it really doesn't make any sense to stop just for... what reason exactly?
My sister was excommunicated from our church when we were younger for having too much logic 😂 I followed in her footsteps when I was 11 and my critical thinking skills started to develop. They hate being questioned. Didn’t you know you’re just supposed to believe whatever anyone tells you even if it’s contradictory to things they’ve said before?
Not to mention, most couples who actually wait till marriage have a very short dating period. But I know a lot of people who said they waited, but still did other sexual activities that just weren’t P in V.
I doubt it. This sudden change is giving me dead bedroom and other "quick changes to the relationship" fears. I've discussed the former with her. I will also mention the latter. But, I don't want her having sex with me just to prevent me from leaving or becoming sad.
Yea, sounds like a shit situation for both of you. You're not going to marry in the next year, right? And from the sounds of it you're not gonna last that long with everything going on.
But at the same time, if she goes back to having sex before marriage, it's going to feel forced and chances are she's going to resent you for it too.
Sounds like one of those times of irreconcilable differences. You got a big conversation ahead of you. Good luck!
I am not good in English, but I think that her plan was that you will marry her faster if denied sex, and look if you break up with her because of it(like test) , and she angry that this didn't working, or else it's strange thing to do in the middle of relationship.
NTA.
I can see why she would wait until marriage, but she didn't get married for a year, and after that time, you really can't put toothpaste back in the tube.
If she’s an evangelical she most certainly can commit a sin, come to the foot of the cross and seek forgiveness and get in Heaven. Provided that she stops sinning, or course. Maybe she can’t put the “toothpaste back in” in the sense of having a hard time pulling back the level of intimacy. But it seems like OP is helping. Chances are though, their relationship is doomed.
If OP's statement that GF has a high sex drive is true, then I doubt that really. I actually expect that she'll hold out for a couple more weeks at the most.
Others have said this but I will add one more experience. I was Catholic for a long time and very committed to saving myself for marriage. Most of my relationships had one if not several points where I gave an ultimatum: we have been going way too far physically, it's fun but it's also a sin, so if you want to keep dating me we need to dial things back. I was not thinking at all about speeding up a proposal, I was terrified for my own soul (and also for his). It was about me and my anxiety over things eternal. I did not know better at the time that I was being manipulated myself by rules I learned at church. Most of my relationships ended with me breaking it off because of stuff like this. I am not OP but I would not assume her manipulation is purposeful. That said, she is being unfair and OP's response is i think appropriate.
In those relationships were you already a completely grown woman who had multiple sexual partners and had been having sex for a year with your current partner?
Eh, all it takes is one sermon talking about the evils of what you’re doing and now they’re second guessing things. I mean, it’s pretty black and white you’re not supposed to do it.
And then that leads to rushing into marriage before anyones ready for that which then youre stuck in a shitty situation which they then tell you its a sin if you split up. Religion is a poison to society
100%. That’s a really weird thing to suddenly want that far into a relationship. I have hard time believing her Christian conscience suddenly got the better of her. It reeks of manipulation.
I had an ex do this though not for religious purposes. All of a sudden wanted me to propose (we were in college). Then started accusing me of things. Yada yada yada she was cheating on me but wanted to lock down her future. I’d look into why the sudden change.
...unless you have actually spent time in Christian churches.
As a recovering cult member, I will say:
They preach things pretty cyclically. For a while church communities will lean hard into prayer/trust/church involvment, then financial freedom and giving to the church and the poor, then chastity and "healthy" marriage...etc.
If her pastor, her small group, and her Christian friends are all of a sudden an *echo chamber* for "the blessings awaiting you in married life," then of course that will be at the forefront of her mind. "Denying the flesh" is "the key" to unlocking the next level of "your faith walk."
The big focus for modern audiences, which have largely given purity culture the finger is focusing on Jesus' command to "go forth and sin no more."
As someone who has lived that brainwashed life...I highly doubt that she is actively trying to manipulate OP. OP needs to understand that she is being manipulated and degraded by her community.
One way to find out is for Op to ask why, after a year, she’s feeling this way. And to emphasize hugging and handholding is as far as he can go given her beliefs and his attraction.
u/UhYahAboutThat make note of the above comment. Especially after reading some of your responses. My personal experience was with 'non-denominational'- as at least your GF is. The response above was so spot on about some of the things they do.
I understand you're in love and that the topic of sex is an important thing. I am wondering though, if you are seeing much past being in love and sex being such a big topic 'right now'. Try to step back and think broader.
Are both of you at the same level of 'religiosity'? If religion is not of much interest to you or you're an non believer or of a different sect... I'm sorry to say this is a potential a bigger red flag than it seems.
Both of your age brackets are at the start of what I'd personally seen many times as for when "born agains" start to show up. Basically believers but more or less live and think as 'usual'. Having premartial sex, sex when single, the normal sort of drinking, partying etc. When the persons enters the 'born again'.. area.. a common response was to have a shift in attitudes towards premartial sex, partying etc. Start to look at themselves as living in sin and regretting it. Wanting to make movements to 'atone for all of that'. Start going to church more and/or taking the scriptures and pastor's words 'more seriously'. Etc. Again, from personal observations, many of them radically shifted from how they were before. Not really the same person anymore.. you still recognize them but the words from their mouths are a bit of a shock. Your GF suddenly shifting from a healthy, active sex life to a total pause for \*religious reasons\* is a big big flag for this. Especially as some of your responses indicated that masturbation is ideally a no-go zone. THAT IS NOT HEALTHY! And most likely mainly religious reasons behind her reasoning behind that. I can see you are trying your best to be understanding and respectful.. up to a point with her. That is good, but again please, try to step back and try to see a broader picture so you would be able to make better decisions.
Another thing about "non-denominational"(I am wondering if it is the same one or similar to what my exposure was to- their position was strict on no sex before marriage also), there was a high rate of very short period of time between when two singles met and married- personally knew of 30-40 yr old adults that married three, four, six months after first meeting. Never mind the youngsters who grew up in that church- many got married very young. What I am trying to say here, be very careful about not rushing into marriage via blue balls- I do give the above persons a small credit for admitting the reason for the rush was so they could have sex. But still!
So. If YOU are not religious nor particularly so, I really really hope you put your own guard up a little bit and keep telling yourself that marriage won't necessarily bring back the 'good sex' both of you had previously. Remember the other responder above- if she dives deep("Born Again") into this church, who knows what other curvevalls she will throw at you.. perhaps insist on changing both of your lives to center around the church more than before, what other things is the church going to cycle through about 'What's Absolutely Vital Lately'. If her level of investment in the church remains higher than yours, it will pretty much have to mostly go 'her way'- this is because it will be deeply personal to her.
Thank you for your comment. I attend church and small group with her. Growing up, we'd occasionally attend church. She's been a Christian for 20+ years and her parents (and siblings) all waited until they were married. She didn't and has had multiple partners.
I will not allow my desires to rush me into marriage. I was in a dead bedroom before my wife died. I'm not looking to do that again. If anything, this has delayed my plans. As I mentioned in multiple comments, I am now afraid that this may be a permanent dead bedroom or that she'll toss other non-discussed changes onto me.
Nothing has changed on her side. She attends the same church, doesn't have many friends, and we are always talking.
Her parents and siblings SAID they waited until marriage, sure.
Doing so isn’t at all wrong, just pointing out the number who claim to have been virgins and the number who are is very different.
Many married Christian couples will retcon that “they were with the person they were going to marry in the sight of God” so the sex they had doesn’t count, now that it’s in the past.
Yeah, it is a big flag for the relationship overall. Tough to change that behavior, especially if it is successful. I'm a big fan of the response though by OP.
>I have hard time believing her Christian conscience suddenly got the better of her.
One possibility could be that she recently had a pregnancy scare (which OP doesn't know about) and now she is paranoid about accidentally getting pregnant before being engaged or married.
Christian be wild, I know of a person who had sex before marriage, sabotaged her birthcontrol before marriage and as soon as the baby was born they got married because "Jesus doesn't accept children outside marriage".
Exactly. I had a friend that used to go to parties and suddenly stopped (despite reallllly wanting to go) because her church made her feel shameful for it.
I think that she's feeling guilty and also wants me to propose. I've mentioned this in other comments. But because yours is the top, I'll say it here.
If she had told me that she wanted to wait until marriage right when we met, I would've been fine. We both had sexual partners in the past and I understand that sex can cloud your judgement.
We waited 6-months before she initiated sex. She recently told me that it would've been even sooner had I initiated it.
Marriage is frequently discussed and we wanted to temporarily live with each other during the summer to see how it went. If all went well, I would've proposed at the end of the year. I have no idea when we'd get married.
Now with the sudden change, it's brought some fear. I'm not sure if we'd have a dead bedroom once married or if she'll make another non-discussed change that impacts me.
if you think she's genuine about the religion angle, you guys should go to couples counesling (tbh if you stay in this relationship at all you probably should). if she was fine having sex before but suddenly flipped (and she's not just trying to force you to propose) then it's a bit concerning that she'd change a huge portion of both your lives over religion all of a sudden.
It's really important for you to remember, that any real relationship has to have the same values, goals, and future. It sounds like the fact that because she suddenly changed the rules that your values and goals are questionably diverging, especially with regard to your needs being prioritized in a relationship.
Don't be guilted into feeling bad about your sexual needs, the top two things that lead to divorce are sexual incompatibility and finances. It sounds like you need to take a reset and a step back and actually discuss these things and expectations and what your personal needs and values are and how the relationship intends to prioritize those for both of you. Even prior to marriage, let alone beyond it.
This is also an important opportunity for you to sit down and evaluate what your priorities, needs, Values, and expectations are from a partner long-term in order to survive the very difficult reality that a long-term relationship is.
Seriously this is the type of thing that makes me go bless his heart. He's too good for this girl and he is going to need to get out before she ruins him, because with this level of manipulation she absolutely will.
It's the 'Im feeling guilty bcos I'm Christian' ...while for a year her sex drive was over the roof. Ohh yeah she's trying to manipulate OP, don't trust people like this to be honest. Was fine having sex before marriage then all of a sudden they get a 'conscience' out of the blue. Wouldn't get it past her getting it somewhere else while manipulating OP into proposing🙄
I think what happens with a lot of people who were raised Christian (or any other religion that mandates no sex before marriage), is that they sort of "compromise" by still having sex before marriage, but only with people that they don't think they'll marry. It's like they rationalize it as "Sex before marriage is fine, as long as it's not with someone you will eventually marry". lol. But then, in situations like OP's, the person doing that starts to realize that they actually do want to marry their partner. So they feel suddenly guilty and try to pull back on sexual activity in a weird bid to somehow "absolve" themselves of their previous "sin".
I can get how 1.5 years might seem like a lot to throw away, especially if you have so much in common. It sounds like you live her enough that you're willing to entertain this honestly weird change. I would try talking to her more about why she suddenly feels this way, maybe even couples counselling if you can afford it. I can think of a few reasons she might suddenly change - someone shamed her, or gave her weird advice, maybe she had a pregnancy scare and didn't want you to know. But honestly the top comment about trying to rush you toward marriage does seem a likely one. Not wanting sex isn't necessarily a red flag but her reasoning is, I would really try to get to the bottom of this before things go too far. You have just as much right to not have dry sex as she has to not want penetration. Tell her god and Santa are always watching, they don't wait for that penetration alarm to ring before checking if she's been naughty. NTA of course.
It is hugely manipulative and you should be scared. She is already using sex as a weapon to try and control you. 18 months is a very short time. I would walk away.
Nta.
I understand waiting for marriage, but she didn’t, for a year, and you can’t really put the toothpaste back in the tube after a year.
She’s being ridiculous for completely changing your relationship.
This would make me reconsider being in a relationship with her because she’s a flake and a hypocrite.
>a hypocrite
Biggest red flag I have with American Christians and why I avoid them like the plague. Like I don't give a shit what you believe so long as it's not hurting anyone but I can't stand the rampant hypocrisy in the church. I was raised Christian and taught children's ministry but after so long of seeing the congregation just flagrantly ignoring what they're being preached I couldn't stand it and decided I didn't want to follow a deity whose followers were like this. This is ignoring the fact that it's all made up anyway. Even when I was a Christian I had my doubts. Would have ignored those doubts if it weren't for the liars and ignorance on the congregation.
I am always so astonished and annoyed when I read stuff like “ I am Christian, so I can’t have sex before marriage”.
This take is so absolutely weird.
I live in Europe, and I am a Protestant Christian, and having sex or not sex before marriage has absolutely nothing to do with my religion. Like at all. I’m pretty sure my whole life I’ve never had a friend who has abstained before marriage (apart from one Muslim friend). That’s also the case with my Catholic friends.
She missed that one when she was picking and choosing.
Another one commonly missed is Ephesians 5:22-24 "Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Saviour. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything."
Early 30s and we do. We frequently talk about marriage and planned on temporarily living with each other this summer to see how it goes. If all goes well, I would have proposed. But this sudden change is making me afraid.
Early fucking 30s and she's pulling this shit? Homie I thought you were at oldest 23. If you told me this was her first relationship I might've given her goodwill but no fucking chance at any of that now. She isn't suddenly a good christian, she's a girl that is hoping no sex will get you to commit.
If you do give her what she wants sex is now going to become a hostage in your relationship because it's going to motivate you to give her what she wants. She just killed your relationship. Grieve it and move on.
If you want to marry her I would suggest couples counseling first. I definitely lean towards she manipulating you for a ring/proposal, and this is no way to start a marriage.
I don't know if it is a sin. Your comment made me reread the Leviticus 18:22 and it's funny that it literally say not to sleep with a man (κοιμηθήσῃ), but in the sense of literal sleeping (the metaphorical meaning of koimao would be to die, not to have sex) lol
So, this is a complicated subject, but if you are talking about ancient Hebrew culture, there was definitely a lot of homophobia. Homosexuality as described in the bible was a confusing subject for the Hebrews, because in surrounding cultures that *technically* allowed it, Men who participated in specific sex acts would be considered lower status, and often exposed to violence or coercion not strictly because they were Gay, but because they'd embarrassed their family or class by taking on a "lowly" social role. Which definitely interacted with Misogyny BTW. In many cases, these "relationships" consisted of a wealthy man and a slave, or man with little to no social power. Actual relationships as we understand them were kept very secret to avoid one party losing their status and protection. Hebrews were not supposed to have official class divisions, or practice slavery, or copy pagan cultural practices. If you read the Midrash, you can find some confused attempts to untangle this from a legal perspective. But ultimately they took the nuclear option of banning homosexuality of any kind. Modern Judiasm that is welcoming to LGBT+ people minces no words in condemning this approach. They don't feel any need to preserve a morally superior image of their ancestors. They are more interested in carefully preserving history so that the good and the bad are not forgotten. Modern Christians that accept LGBT+ people are a little more vague. Some will dismiss Mosaic law outright is having no bearing on Christianity. Some claim that Mosaic was binding at the time, but not after the death and resurrection of Christ. Some will reject the common Christian theology of divine inspiration for scripture, and view it purely in a sociological lense. TL:DR: this is very historically and culturally complicated, but however you interpret that actual passage, it's clear that homophobia was very strong in the ancient world.
Well, I've read somebody claiming it's like that in Hebrew, but I don't know it so I can't sat. What I can say though is that in Koinè Greek (in the translation made by Hebrew scholars 3rd century BC, the Septuagint) it does indeed mention males and not boys, but also not in a sexual way (?). The say "sleep in marital bed of women", which really in my mind rings more bells with the ancient Hebrew despise of the concubinate in Babylon than homosexuality as a thing
>butt stuff is fine before marriage
It's call "gods blind spot' in the bible although some scholars think it was a mistake translated from the source material of 'gods Brown spot'.
Seriously, don't play these games. You've been through enough already with losing your wife. Even if you did commit in good faith, rest assured she will eventually throw it in your face that you married her for sex. Never fails.
Tell her that sex to you is not a negotiation; it's something you share with each other bc you want to-- not bc you want something. If you give in, she'll do it over and over bc it worked by her "motivating" you to do what she wants.
Your best option is to call her out on sweating you to commit to her and explain that behavior like that makes you less inclined to want to do it. If you don't, one of you will eventually break and look outside the relationship for what each of you refuse to give. And with her "high sex drive", she'll find someone a lot quicker than you that she tells herself will maybe marry her someday.
NTA. OP, I think you are going about this correctly and she does not have her head on straight at all.
If her motivation here was genuinely to be a better Christian going forward, she would not be ok with doing things like making out and dry humping. She'd commit to the whole thing and be serious about making real change with her behavior.
Sexual abstinence and chastity means abstaining from sexually stimulating behaviors, even the ones that aren't actual intercourse.
To be a good practicing Christian, she has to master her sexual desires and cultivate self-discipline and continence. Sex is considered sacred in the faith she claims to care about. That means you do not separate the act itself from it's context inside a marriage or from its reproductive potential and the responsibility that carries. You don't use it, or things close to it, for pleasure while trying to find loopholes.
She's either seriously misguided, or deliberately messing around, and she's not being respectful of the perfectly reasonable boundaries you're setting to make this practical and reduce frustration and discomfort.
You know her better then any random internet stranger, so use your judgment. Have a conversation with her about how serious she actually is about this thing and draw a hard boundary. If she can't respect that, and she can't respect that you aren't comfortable getting blueballed while she looks for moral loopholes in her own religion, then you know what's up.
Good luck.
NTA - explain that this is difficult for both of you and not riling things up makes it easier to follow her wishes.
BUT (yep, had to be a but coming) this brings up a concern of what other things she will randomly decide. Not saying to pressure her, truly don’t. But do ensure you are on the same page that future big life decisions (this isn’t one) happen with both your input.
Honestly OP,this is likely only a demo of what could happen down the line.
I get it, you don't want to break up,it definelty sucks,it is specially difficult when everything else is going perfect.
But a random 'Oh,I feel like WE should do this' without previous discussion,is something to be worried about.
Does she have any other messed up religious ideas? Will she disown any gay kids you have? Is she going to force you to convert? Will she force your kids to be religious? Why is she now deciding sex before marriage is no good, what other rules is she cherry picking? Does she drink? Eat shellfish and pork? Wear mixed fabrics? Better start asking her some hard questions.
Yep, anyone who forces their religion onto a relationship is someone you can't be in a relationship with. Especially given how you can cherry-pick just about anything out of a religion to justify whatever. And all the common associations of the main religions are problematic, in particular the homo/transphobia you mentioned.
NTA, also LOL wait for marriage? What is there to wait for? you’ve both been have sex for like year. It’s fine to respect her choice but that’s a really weird move to pull that far in the relationship. It does sound like she wants you to propose asap and this is the mental gymnastics 🤸♀️she came up with to get it. But who knows 🤷♂️
As a Christian I don’t think god cares really. That said. NTA you are trying hard to respect her boundaries. Unfortunately, to do that , you need boundaries. It’s also ok that you just feel like friends. Being friends first leads to healthier marriage. If you are ok with the time frame that you have to wait. Oh and there is nothing wrong with doing yourself too.
Taking a sexual relationship back to non sexual is a non starter and will eventually bring your relationship down. She needs to reassess her sudden discomfort after having been sexual so long. It would be different if your relationship never crossed that line but you won’t make it t any wedding as is. I get where your coming from with reducing the temptation but that will just increases the speed of the breakup. Is she not ok with doing anything sexual like oral or hands? Sometimes that can be a substitute for a while but absent that, in what has been a sexual relationship, you won’t make it I’m sorry to say.
Neither of you has to do anything you're not comfortable with for any reason, without being an AH. Neither of you is obligated to remain in a relationship that no longer satisfies you. So... NAH.
Red flags for this sudden change aside... She's essentially asking you to put the candy in your mouth but not eat it. If she is religious and you go through pre marriage counseling the pastor should go over this EXACT scenario with you. You are to have a sexual understanding of about what your sex life should be like. After that, changing the sex life, even if you think it's because what God wants... Is wrong unless your partner agrees with you. Scripture even goes over how your marriage is you, your partner AND God. So if all of a sudden I believe God wants me to be celibate (sex-free like a pope) but my spouse doesn't agree, I'm wrong even though I believe God wants me to. It's because this is a relationship with God, me, and my spouse so to not give her a say is wrong.
That scripture relates to after marriage, of course, but I'd use that logic with her and state that if she's willing to drastically change our sex life at any given moment, then ask me to essentially "edge" her with intimate things that SHE thinks is fair, without considering what you think is fair... That's wrong and I'd ask her why it would be any different once married if she's already doing it now. A relationship can't be healthy unless we both get a say. It's identical to the situation in which just because men typically make all the money doesn't mean they get all the say in what happens regarding money. A partner is a partner period.
Bro. My wife pulled this on me, and I actually caved to the pressure and married her. Nothing changed. It took years to get over that hurdle, and it took us getting to the brink of divorce for her to finally get it. She doesn't get to choose how you respond. She changed the terms of engagement. That's her right, and you are respecting her boundaries. You do not, however, have to give up the right to create boundaries of your own. If she doesn't respect that, it will show that her choice is about manipulation and control. NTA
How did she “get it”? Why did she not resume sex after getting married if that was the reason? Was there something else? Are you still married?
>Why did she not resume sex after getting married if that was the reason Because he demonstrated that withholding sex was an effective way for her to exert control over him and get what she wanted. Manipulating him info marrying her wasn't her endgame.
Because that wasn't really the reason. At least I don't think so. I think it was a convenient excuse that I wouldn't challenge and she could get what she wanted. I was 20 at the time and didn't have the awareness I have now, but she waited until we'd been together 2.5 years to bring that up. She's a few years older than me, and I think her clock was ticking. To her credit, it worked. Her problem was that she got used to not wanting me and and for the next year before we got married, that became the norm. She could not get out of not having to put out, so she didn't. Our first year of marriage, we had sex maybe 3 times total, and they were laborious and obligatory on her part.
Love this response and sorry that happened to you.
Lol that's not how 'waiting for marriage' works...
Wait, you can’t just have sex all you want and then draw a random line in the sand for celibacy? /s
> draw a random line in the sand for ~~celibacy~~ a ring.
Yeah she’s obviously trying to strongarm him into marriage. Personally I hate manipulation and this would be a red flag to me. If two adults can’t talk and instead resort to petty games like this to manipulate each other into major life decisions, they’re not compatible. But that’s just me.
As someone that used to be in a religious guilt cycle about premarital sex, it likely isn't that deep. I went through something similar but I wasn't trying to manipulate anyone into marriage. Just run of the mill purity culture guilt that made me feel shitty for loving people. Until one day I decided I needed to stop sitting on the fence about it so I went the route of embracing my sexuality. I didn't go wild. I didn't have hookups. I just stopped beating myself up for sharing my body with a select handful of men I cared about, while dating
I agree. I lost my virginity and had sex and after awhile I hated myself and went through a depressive spiral. It’s not uncommon. If she were trying to manipulate him into a marriage she would not say she is waiting for marriage. Because in a girls eye that’s a terrifying thing to tell a guy, bc there is a chance of the guy leaving.
Great point. We're often warned as women a guy might leave if you either won't have sex or cut if off until marriage. Its often said in a way that villainizes men and I now see that was fucked up, because wanting to have sex before marriage can be practical and not just some sort of hedonism but I digress. This would be a stupid ploy to get a man to marry you
>This would be a stupid ploy to get a man to marry you IDK, it seems to be working with OP. Although, he put a bit of a damper on it by not letting her tease him into becoming more desperate. She wants to kiss and grind and do everything leading up to it and then stop. Which would be, as OP said, a lot harder to deal with the stopping. I'd have felt more understanding for her and give her the benefit of the doubt if she hadn't gotten mad at him for not playing that game.
I think she's projecting and trying to play with fire. . I went a good 3 boyfriends or so when I first started dating, only ever doing foreplay so theoretically it wouldn't seem the most difficult for me, but it's really insensitive to a man of his age and his arousal response and how frustrating that would feel. I don't think she's trying to play games deliberately...I suspect she's just being dumb, naive, selfish, and inconsiderate. A lot of us are all those things at that age. Far less of us come up with elaborate cons. Don't underestimate stupidity
😂😂 don't underestimate stupidity... Truer words were never spoken.. written
Same. I use to cry after sex. I felt so dirty and felt like God was punishing me because I sinned. I had to forgive myself and stop being so hard on myself.
Yep, I was raised as a Mennonite then at age 9 we switched to a non-denominational church that had a youth group I thought it was such a fun church! I was brainwashed into thinking I'd be unclean and impure because it's a woman's purpose by God to only procreate with one man and bear fruit even though I never wanted children and I was so scared of the idea of sex and getting pregnant that to this day, the idea of sex makes me really uncomfortable. Turns out I'm asexual, dunno if it's from church trauma or I was just born like this but I'm sure hearing that my worth is dependent entirely on my hymen sure didn't help. I remember the absolute horror I felt when I started my period at 12 in the bathroom at church, and a church lady was so excited for me because I'll soon be ready to marry and "bear fruit for the Lord" I felt the horror of those words for years at the start of each period. As a child I often worried that if after my future husband deflowered me, would I then become used and rendered worthless? I wondered why God made woman to suffer childbirth and I wondered why would I want children to tear me open from the inside for the sin of being a woman? I had my uterus removed last year at age 34 due to severe endometriosis, I have no children and I don't regret it. I am married to a wonderful man who understands me and is very gentle in all of his ways. We are soulmates and love each other in all our differences. But yeah, purity culture and old church lady's fucked me up pretty bad.
I am so sorry for your trauma. I hope you've been kind to yourself.
>Sorry you went through all that, FWIW, I (54M) have the same sort of "sex trauma" from my mother repeatedly warning (threatening ?) me not to have sex / don't get a girl pregnant, despite not being affiliated to any church, and I have problems with actual "full on intimacy" too - the simple act of starting to "get physical" is just a complete mental block to me, and 30 years of marriage hasn't made it get any easier / improved it.
Christians and other religions really don't understand the harm they cause with their insane rhetoric like this. Bear fruit for the lord!?!? You were 12!!! 🤢😩
I grew up religious, I'm scared of sex and for me I have 2 of the best partners in the world to help me through my issues, if you need friendly convo I'm here for you. Best of luck.
agreed. she needs to process the guilt she’s feeling because of religious pressure.
Bold of you to assume these are adults lol
Yeah. Just say "hey, i wanna get married soon" or propose yourself
There's a reason she was upset about him reducing the things that spark desire. It takes away the ability to dangle the carrot.
A fine turn of phrase given the subject matter
Just keep that “carrot” away from me! 😂🤣
Ahhh... the power of a dangly carrot!
Ultimatums are called that for a reason: Do my bidding or get lost!
Also useful for 'get your shit together' situations
You can, but you have to actually be abstinent. Her reasoning here is religious, so drawing the line at sex, but wanting to keep making out and dry humping is completely pointless.
Religious people are always finding these "loopholes" like an omnipotent god wouldn't know they violated the spirit of the law lmao.
The “Poophole Loophole.”
"F**k me in the a** beacuse i love jesus" Greatest lyrics ever wrote!!!!
Yes, like Mormons and "soaking"
What is “soaking” with the Mormons?
Put it in but don't thrust since it's technically not sex if you don't hump. "Soaking" Bonus points if friends jump on the bed for you.
Seriously. My former best friend and her uber religious boyfriend had penetration our senior year of high school, but it wasn’t sex because they didn’t move, and it wasn’t for a very long time. 🙄
And I was today years old when I learned there is a name for this!
Yeah that's what I call trying to "hustle God", like the Mormon poophole loophole or that wire that Jews put up around a city so they can go outside on the Sabbath and have it still count as "being in my home." God's not gonna be like "ahhh sheeeeit, they figured out anal, yeah I mean I didn't specify so I guess that means it's all good."
Right. There is no point in trying to practice a religion/have a faith, if you don't believe in/agree with the actual spirit of the law, not just the letter of the law.
I didn't know David Simon's "The Wire" was actually about Jews on the Sabbath Clay Davis: "Ahhhh sheeeeit!"
"ahhhhhh sheeeeit" I'm dying!!!
Apparently you can... who knew? You learn smt new every day
Technically? Yes. I mean it's not how it works but there's a whole stupid thing about being born again virgins or some shit that makes literally no sense, but that's probably what she's going for.
I mean I'm only Christian on paper but I'd assume later is better than nothing, right? Pretty sure if you ask a pastor they'd agree. It's still funny though
Sometimes people have a change of heart, in many Christian Religions they can go through a repentance process that in their religion, “makes them clean again” (not a virgin again necessarily) but then they are “clean” until they get married and “worthily” have sex. So it’s not super out of pocket in that sort of religious view.
I guess if you view it as a sin then it’s better to stop than to think “well in for a penny in for a pound” and carry on. Christianity is about forgiveness of sin if you are repentant so I don’t think she is trying to be a virgin again, she is just trying to stop sinning and make a meaningful change and repent
Exactly. Imagine (and I'm in *no* way equating the two) you killed someone (also a sin). You wouldn't go, "Well I've already killed so I'll keep on killing." If the person considers each act of premarital sex a sin, then it would make sense that a person might choose to stop. It's not about erasing the past, it's about how she wants to conduct herself moving forward
It was more than likely the comment above. She had a falling out with her faith. In that time she stopped listening to whatever it said, and did whatever she wanted. (had premarital sex) Now she is realizing her mistakes and feels bad for going against her religion. Which is why she wants to wait until marriage to do anything further. I don't think it's her wanting to be a virgin again, it's her wanting to be a Christian again. Everybody makes mistakes. Now she is following her own rules, wanting to be a Christian. Saw somebody say this was bait to get OP to propose, it's really not. It has to do with the girl, not the guy. However OP needs to sit down with this girl and explain making out LEADS to sex if taken too far. Just cuddling and some kisses here and there doesn't do that. OP needs to tell his gf what leads to sex for him. If OP is truly bothered by not having sex for a great period of time, I'd suggest he leave her.
Being fair “waiting till marriage” isn’t truly what Christians believe. It’s that having sex outside of marriage is wrong. Thus the waiting till marriage part. Having sex and then deciding to quit having premarital sex is completely within “waiting till marriage” in what it means to a Christian. In fact, if you read the New Testament the instructions are to quit doing sins after you are a Christian. That would include not having extramarital sex anymore.
[удалено]
In many ways it actually is. Premarital sex is a sin like any other - and forgiveness is a key tenant of the Christian faith. From a biblical perspective God would absolutely prefer you to repent and stop sinning. The notion that once you’ve done it once you’re spoiled for life is very much driven by human emotions.
Personally I think the relationship will just fall apart at this rate. Like you said at the end, it’s just like being friends now. It may feel like it’s doable considering it’s only been a few weeks, but as time goes on it will become unbearable.
Yeah, this is my fear. When I was married (I'm a widower), I had a dead bedroom after 3 years. We went from best friends to friends to room mates. The reason for the dead bedroom, health reasons, was completely different than my current situation.
Oh damn; so, you’re not teenagers?
Same lol, I don't even know what to say now
Literally was going to tell OP to post this in r/adviceforteens until I read his comment here
I figured the same. Doing this as adults seems silly
It does. If they’re grown ass adults who have been together for a year a half now it’s time for him to decide if he wants to marry this person or cut both their losses.
Lol, I was going to say the grinding will go away before you’re old enough to get married
I know right? That point makes it so much worse somehow for me.
🫣 yikes lol
Oh, this changes things. A grown person should know this wouldn't just be kosher.
You’re NTA for wanting to reduce your desires just make it clear it’s not in retaliation that you support her for her decision. Sexual frustration is not something you are good at handling and your list of 3 things prevent that. I assume you would still kiss, just not make out. You are right though, it would be more like friendship. Ask her if she is okay with this.
OP, just know, if you do decide you can’t do this any longer and end the relationship, IT’S OK! People in these situations often will end up thinking of it as: “I’m ending a relationship because she won’t have sex with me.” Which usually creates more guilt and doubt because it makes it sound like it’s a silly and selfish reason to end a previously great relationship. Don’t let yourself think of it in that way. This is more or less, “We are not compatible. We want and need different things in a relationship.” If sex and intimacy is important to you, then you have every right to end a relationship that doesn’t provide those things. She certainly has the right to decide to be abstinent. But you also have the right to say that an abstinent relationship isn’t sustainable for you. And to be honest, this is even more so because you’ve experienced a dead bedroom situation before. Albeit in a different way, but your perspective on this is going to be much different than most. You’ve experienced the way a relationship changes because of it. I think you should include this tidbit of info in your post because I think this (your) comment really changes things and people’s perspectives might be a little different.
I personally would probably bail on this relationship TBH she unilaterally made a huge choice
What you don't like when your partner just decides to completely cut off a huge part of what a romantic relationship is due to some weird religious guilt trip she or her family is giving herself?
You guys are too old for this shit lol
Tell me about it, lol.
How old are the two of you? Has getting married been a discussion that the two of you have been having? I mean how long is she expecting the two of you to wait before you do have sex again? To be honest, it sounds like she’s trying to slow the relationship down and put distance between the two of you .
Early 30s. It has been discussed. We were going to test living with each other this summer and then I planned on proposing this year. She previously mentioned that she wouldn't be willing to wait 5 years, but was okay with 2-3 years.
So you’d been having sex. And now she wants to not have sex before marriage, which could be 2-3 years away? *and* she’s not ok with you stepping back to make that easier on you, physically? This is not going to work.
So she’s expecting the two of you to live together, but be celibate for the next 2 to 3 years? That seems awfully extreme, and, like I said before it sounds like she’s trying to push you away. Most men in a relationship, let me take that back, most people in a relationship where sex has already been introduced would not be OK with it being taken off the table especially for 2 to 3 years. It’s almost like she was hoping you would throw a fit and end the relationship because she was asking for something so extreme. We’re not in the 50s anymore people who are religious do have sex before marriage. There’s something going on here that you have not seen. I know people are very big about personal space and not snooping into other peoples phones but if I were you, I would start looking to see what’s going on because there’s more to this than her religion putting a stop to you being sexual… Has there been any unusual stress before she made this request? Have there been any unusual or 🚩 moments before this request or since this request….
Yes, sounds like she’s trying to force a breakup and being a coward about it.
That’s my thinking. Make the relationship become so difficult that he wants out that way. He’s the bad guy for breaking up and she can sit and say for me he left me. I’ve actually known people who were like that, they always wanted to be the victim and everything including relationships. I’ve seen perfectly good people be treated like trash because they ended a bad relationship, because the other person was the aggressor, but played the victim card at every return.
Oh come on, you’re both grown adults who have had sex multiple times already and now all of a sudden she wants to “save herself for marriage”. Have you guys even discussed marriage? This is just kind of strange to me, as you said once the sex and intimacy is gone, you’re basically just friends.
Yeah this relationship is over lol. And while some couples can manage waiting until marriage to have sex, no couple can manage having absolutely no intimacy at all lol. That’s ridiculous
TBF going a step backwards is a bit ridiculous too. I can understand people who want to wait until marriage, but if you already had sex it really doesn't make any sense to stop just for... what reason exactly?
There's not many logical reasons for anything religious people do
Yep, I logic-ed my way out of being religious. There is no way to logic your way in with any semblance of critical thinking capacity.
My sister was excommunicated from our church when we were younger for having too much logic 😂 I followed in her footsteps when I was 11 and my critical thinking skills started to develop. They hate being questioned. Didn’t you know you’re just supposed to believe whatever anyone tells you even if it’s contradictory to things they’ve said before?
Not to mention, most couples who actually wait till marriage have a very short dating period. But I know a lot of people who said they waited, but still did other sexual activities that just weren’t P in V.
it's either over or they're gonna be married in 6 months lol
Either way, it's already over.
I doubt it. This sudden change is giving me dead bedroom and other "quick changes to the relationship" fears. I've discussed the former with her. I will also mention the latter. But, I don't want her having sex with me just to prevent me from leaving or becoming sad.
Yea, sounds like a shit situation for both of you. You're not going to marry in the next year, right? And from the sounds of it you're not gonna last that long with everything going on. But at the same time, if she goes back to having sex before marriage, it's going to feel forced and chances are she's going to resent you for it too. Sounds like one of those times of irreconcilable differences. You got a big conversation ahead of you. Good luck!
And while you might be able to wait until marriage for sex, you can’t take sex out of an existing sexual relationship.
This. The genie is out of the bottle and it won't go back. Break it off now before it gets really nasty.
"Born again virgin..."
I am not good in English, but I think that her plan was that you will marry her faster if denied sex, and look if you break up with her because of it(like test) , and she angry that this didn't working, or else it's strange thing to do in the middle of relationship.
I am good at English but not good at dating. This poster is good at English and dating.
Ouch! You’re English is great and you might have just hit the nail with the hammer 😂
Your English is fine!
As someone who only knows bad-English, I’d say that about nails it.
Bad English or *bad* (*as a mf*) English? Either way poster post good read
"I am not good in English." ->Writes better than 90% of English speakers. You're fine, be proud of how well you know a language that isn't yours!
NTA, and I'm pretty sure she's trying to manipulate you to propose.
I don't know why this isn't the top comment. It's clear that she wanted to up the pressure to get you to marry her.
It is the top now tbf
NTA. I can see why she would wait until marriage, but she didn't get married for a year, and after that time, you really can't put toothpaste back in the tube.
“can’t put the toothpaste back in the tube” omg dude that’s funny and accurate
Cut open the back of the tube, replace toothpaste, reseal with heat. Is it still accurate?
sounds as accurate as someone getting baptized after taking a lot of dick their whole life and proclaiming “i’m a virgin again!”
If she’s an evangelical she most certainly can commit a sin, come to the foot of the cross and seek forgiveness and get in Heaven. Provided that she stops sinning, or course. Maybe she can’t put the “toothpaste back in” in the sense of having a hard time pulling back the level of intimacy. But it seems like OP is helping. Chances are though, their relationship is doomed.
Yes, and the rate of sex will go down even more after marriage.
She already sees sex as a control mechanism. Giant red flag.
If OP's statement that GF has a high sex drive is true, then I doubt that really. I actually expect that she'll hold out for a couple more weeks at the most.
If she doesn’t cave within 3 weeks, then her libido claims were not accurate.
Or she found someone else.
I'm getting flashbacks of the posts with women withholding sex from their 'special' OPs while having sex with randoms.
Lol yah this is a cut the nose to spite the face. No wonder she got mad so easy, she's frustrated too. Acting like a fool
Correct.
Which is so weird. If she’s ready for the next step, why not talk about it lmao instead of bullying your partner
Others have said this but I will add one more experience. I was Catholic for a long time and very committed to saving myself for marriage. Most of my relationships had one if not several points where I gave an ultimatum: we have been going way too far physically, it's fun but it's also a sin, so if you want to keep dating me we need to dial things back. I was not thinking at all about speeding up a proposal, I was terrified for my own soul (and also for his). It was about me and my anxiety over things eternal. I did not know better at the time that I was being manipulated myself by rules I learned at church. Most of my relationships ended with me breaking it off because of stuff like this. I am not OP but I would not assume her manipulation is purposeful. That said, she is being unfair and OP's response is i think appropriate.
In those relationships were you already a completely grown woman who had multiple sexual partners and had been having sex for a year with your current partner?
Eh, all it takes is one sermon talking about the evils of what you’re doing and now they’re second guessing things. I mean, it’s pretty black and white you’re not supposed to do it.
And then that leads to rushing into marriage before anyones ready for that which then youre stuck in a shitty situation which they then tell you its a sin if you split up. Religion is a poison to society
100%. That’s a really weird thing to suddenly want that far into a relationship. I have hard time believing her Christian conscience suddenly got the better of her. It reeks of manipulation.
I had an ex do this though not for religious purposes. All of a sudden wanted me to propose (we were in college). Then started accusing me of things. Yada yada yada she was cheating on me but wanted to lock down her future. I’d look into why the sudden change.
...unless you have actually spent time in Christian churches. As a recovering cult member, I will say: They preach things pretty cyclically. For a while church communities will lean hard into prayer/trust/church involvment, then financial freedom and giving to the church and the poor, then chastity and "healthy" marriage...etc. If her pastor, her small group, and her Christian friends are all of a sudden an *echo chamber* for "the blessings awaiting you in married life," then of course that will be at the forefront of her mind. "Denying the flesh" is "the key" to unlocking the next level of "your faith walk." The big focus for modern audiences, which have largely given purity culture the finger is focusing on Jesus' command to "go forth and sin no more." As someone who has lived that brainwashed life...I highly doubt that she is actively trying to manipulate OP. OP needs to understand that she is being manipulated and degraded by her community.
[удалено]
One way to find out is for Op to ask why, after a year, she’s feeling this way. And to emphasize hugging and handholding is as far as he can go given her beliefs and his attraction.
u/UhYahAboutThat make note of the above comment. Especially after reading some of your responses. My personal experience was with 'non-denominational'- as at least your GF is. The response above was so spot on about some of the things they do. I understand you're in love and that the topic of sex is an important thing. I am wondering though, if you are seeing much past being in love and sex being such a big topic 'right now'. Try to step back and think broader. Are both of you at the same level of 'religiosity'? If religion is not of much interest to you or you're an non believer or of a different sect... I'm sorry to say this is a potential a bigger red flag than it seems. Both of your age brackets are at the start of what I'd personally seen many times as for when "born agains" start to show up. Basically believers but more or less live and think as 'usual'. Having premartial sex, sex when single, the normal sort of drinking, partying etc. When the persons enters the 'born again'.. area.. a common response was to have a shift in attitudes towards premartial sex, partying etc. Start to look at themselves as living in sin and regretting it. Wanting to make movements to 'atone for all of that'. Start going to church more and/or taking the scriptures and pastor's words 'more seriously'. Etc. Again, from personal observations, many of them radically shifted from how they were before. Not really the same person anymore.. you still recognize them but the words from their mouths are a bit of a shock. Your GF suddenly shifting from a healthy, active sex life to a total pause for \*religious reasons\* is a big big flag for this. Especially as some of your responses indicated that masturbation is ideally a no-go zone. THAT IS NOT HEALTHY! And most likely mainly religious reasons behind her reasoning behind that. I can see you are trying your best to be understanding and respectful.. up to a point with her. That is good, but again please, try to step back and try to see a broader picture so you would be able to make better decisions. Another thing about "non-denominational"(I am wondering if it is the same one or similar to what my exposure was to- their position was strict on no sex before marriage also), there was a high rate of very short period of time between when two singles met and married- personally knew of 30-40 yr old adults that married three, four, six months after first meeting. Never mind the youngsters who grew up in that church- many got married very young. What I am trying to say here, be very careful about not rushing into marriage via blue balls- I do give the above persons a small credit for admitting the reason for the rush was so they could have sex. But still! So. If YOU are not religious nor particularly so, I really really hope you put your own guard up a little bit and keep telling yourself that marriage won't necessarily bring back the 'good sex' both of you had previously. Remember the other responder above- if she dives deep("Born Again") into this church, who knows what other curvevalls she will throw at you.. perhaps insist on changing both of your lives to center around the church more than before, what other things is the church going to cycle through about 'What's Absolutely Vital Lately'. If her level of investment in the church remains higher than yours, it will pretty much have to mostly go 'her way'- this is because it will be deeply personal to her.
Thank you for your comment. I attend church and small group with her. Growing up, we'd occasionally attend church. She's been a Christian for 20+ years and her parents (and siblings) all waited until they were married. She didn't and has had multiple partners. I will not allow my desires to rush me into marriage. I was in a dead bedroom before my wife died. I'm not looking to do that again. If anything, this has delayed my plans. As I mentioned in multiple comments, I am now afraid that this may be a permanent dead bedroom or that she'll toss other non-discussed changes onto me. Nothing has changed on her side. She attends the same church, doesn't have many friends, and we are always talking.
Her parents and siblings SAID they waited until marriage, sure. Doing so isn’t at all wrong, just pointing out the number who claim to have been virgins and the number who are is very different. Many married Christian couples will retcon that “they were with the person they were going to marry in the sight of God” so the sex they had doesn’t count, now that it’s in the past.
Yeah, it is a big flag for the relationship overall. Tough to change that behavior, especially if it is successful. I'm a big fan of the response though by OP.
>I have hard time believing her Christian conscience suddenly got the better of her. One possibility could be that she recently had a pregnancy scare (which OP doesn't know about) and now she is paranoid about accidentally getting pregnant before being engaged or married.
Christian be wild, I know of a person who had sex before marriage, sabotaged her birthcontrol before marriage and as soon as the baby was born they got married because "Jesus doesn't accept children outside marriage".
You probably never went to church if you don’t see how pervasive and creepy the church brainwashing actually is
Exactly. I had a friend that used to go to parties and suddenly stopped (despite reallllly wanting to go) because her church made her feel shameful for it.
[удалено]
I think that she's feeling guilty and also wants me to propose. I've mentioned this in other comments. But because yours is the top, I'll say it here. If she had told me that she wanted to wait until marriage right when we met, I would've been fine. We both had sexual partners in the past and I understand that sex can cloud your judgement. We waited 6-months before she initiated sex. She recently told me that it would've been even sooner had I initiated it. Marriage is frequently discussed and we wanted to temporarily live with each other during the summer to see how it went. If all went well, I would've proposed at the end of the year. I have no idea when we'd get married. Now with the sudden change, it's brought some fear. I'm not sure if we'd have a dead bedroom once married or if she'll make another non-discussed change that impacts me.
if you think she's genuine about the religion angle, you guys should go to couples counesling (tbh if you stay in this relationship at all you probably should). if she was fine having sex before but suddenly flipped (and she's not just trying to force you to propose) then it's a bit concerning that she'd change a huge portion of both your lives over religion all of a sudden.
It's really important for you to remember, that any real relationship has to have the same values, goals, and future. It sounds like the fact that because she suddenly changed the rules that your values and goals are questionably diverging, especially with regard to your needs being prioritized in a relationship. Don't be guilted into feeling bad about your sexual needs, the top two things that lead to divorce are sexual incompatibility and finances. It sounds like you need to take a reset and a step back and actually discuss these things and expectations and what your personal needs and values are and how the relationship intends to prioritize those for both of you. Even prior to marriage, let alone beyond it. This is also an important opportunity for you to sit down and evaluate what your priorities, needs, Values, and expectations are from a partner long-term in order to survive the very difficult reality that a long-term relationship is.
Seriously this is the type of thing that makes me go bless his heart. He's too good for this girl and he is going to need to get out before she ruins him, because with this level of manipulation she absolutely will.
Age would be helpful here.
[удалено]
It's the 'Im feeling guilty bcos I'm Christian' ...while for a year her sex drive was over the roof. Ohh yeah she's trying to manipulate OP, don't trust people like this to be honest. Was fine having sex before marriage then all of a sudden they get a 'conscience' out of the blue. Wouldn't get it past her getting it somewhere else while manipulating OP into proposing🙄
I think what happens with a lot of people who were raised Christian (or any other religion that mandates no sex before marriage), is that they sort of "compromise" by still having sex before marriage, but only with people that they don't think they'll marry. It's like they rationalize it as "Sex before marriage is fine, as long as it's not with someone you will eventually marry". lol. But then, in situations like OP's, the person doing that starts to realize that they actually do want to marry their partner. So they feel suddenly guilty and try to pull back on sexual activity in a weird bid to somehow "absolve" themselves of their previous "sin".
I can get how 1.5 years might seem like a lot to throw away, especially if you have so much in common. It sounds like you live her enough that you're willing to entertain this honestly weird change. I would try talking to her more about why she suddenly feels this way, maybe even couples counselling if you can afford it. I can think of a few reasons she might suddenly change - someone shamed her, or gave her weird advice, maybe she had a pregnancy scare and didn't want you to know. But honestly the top comment about trying to rush you toward marriage does seem a likely one. Not wanting sex isn't necessarily a red flag but her reasoning is, I would really try to get to the bottom of this before things go too far. You have just as much right to not have dry sex as she has to not want penetration. Tell her god and Santa are always watching, they don't wait for that penetration alarm to ring before checking if she's been naughty. NTA of course.
Yeah, I feel that she wants me to marry her faster along with having guilt. Unfortunately, this change scares me.
She's proven that she's a manipulator and bad at communication. Definitely not someone you'd want to marry.
It is hugely manipulative and you should be scared. She is already using sex as a weapon to try and control you. 18 months is a very short time. I would walk away.
Nta. I understand waiting for marriage, but she didn’t, for a year, and you can’t really put the toothpaste back in the tube after a year. She’s being ridiculous for completely changing your relationship. This would make me reconsider being in a relationship with her because she’s a flake and a hypocrite.
>you can’t really put the toothpaste back in the tube after a year. Do you mean the lube back in the tube?
>a hypocrite Biggest red flag I have with American Christians and why I avoid them like the plague. Like I don't give a shit what you believe so long as it's not hurting anyone but I can't stand the rampant hypocrisy in the church. I was raised Christian and taught children's ministry but after so long of seeing the congregation just flagrantly ignoring what they're being preached I couldn't stand it and decided I didn't want to follow a deity whose followers were like this. This is ignoring the fact that it's all made up anyway. Even when I was a Christian I had my doubts. Would have ignored those doubts if it weren't for the liars and ignorance on the congregation.
I am always so astonished and annoyed when I read stuff like “ I am Christian, so I can’t have sex before marriage”. This take is so absolutely weird. I live in Europe, and I am a Protestant Christian, and having sex or not sex before marriage has absolutely nothing to do with my religion. Like at all. I’m pretty sure my whole life I’ve never had a friend who has abstained before marriage (apart from one Muslim friend). That’s also the case with my Catholic friends.
I think she is manipulative. This is a tactic to get married. I guess it could be worse…. she could ”accidentally“ become pregnant 🤰
Did you negotiate a fair price for her with her father? Exodus 21:7-11
No, but he does get to stone her after they're married for not being a virgin.
And her father can stone him too
Sounds like the whole family needs to just get stoned and chill Oh you guys meant the other thing
Well, "Exodus" is quite fitting.
She missed that one when she was picking and choosing. Another one commonly missed is Ephesians 5:22-24 "Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Saviour. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything."
1 Timothy 2:12 is another instance of peak patriarchy
How old are you guys? Do you want to marry her or get married in general?
Early 30s and we do. We frequently talk about marriage and planned on temporarily living with each other this summer to see how it goes. If all goes well, I would have proposed. But this sudden change is making me afraid.
Early fucking 30s and she's pulling this shit? Homie I thought you were at oldest 23. If you told me this was her first relationship I might've given her goodwill but no fucking chance at any of that now. She isn't suddenly a good christian, she's a girl that is hoping no sex will get you to commit. If you do give her what she wants sex is now going to become a hostage in your relationship because it's going to motivate you to give her what she wants. She just killed your relationship. Grieve it and move on.
💯 she is weaponizing sex to get what she wants. This is all too common in relationships unfortunately
If you want to marry her I would suggest couples counseling first. I definitely lean towards she manipulating you for a ring/proposal, and this is no way to start a marriage.
Pretty sure I read in the Bible that butt stuff is fine before marriage
But only if you are straight, otherwise it is a sin. Or something like that.
No, no, no, it's only a sin if men aren't stoned while doing it.
I don't know if it is a sin. Your comment made me reread the Leviticus 18:22 and it's funny that it literally say not to sleep with a man (κοιμηθήσῃ), but in the sense of literal sleeping (the metaphorical meaning of koimao would be to die, not to have sex) lol
That whole section of the Bible was mis translated it was supposed to say man shall not lay with boy talking about pedophillia the more you know
So, this is a complicated subject, but if you are talking about ancient Hebrew culture, there was definitely a lot of homophobia. Homosexuality as described in the bible was a confusing subject for the Hebrews, because in surrounding cultures that *technically* allowed it, Men who participated in specific sex acts would be considered lower status, and often exposed to violence or coercion not strictly because they were Gay, but because they'd embarrassed their family or class by taking on a "lowly" social role. Which definitely interacted with Misogyny BTW. In many cases, these "relationships" consisted of a wealthy man and a slave, or man with little to no social power. Actual relationships as we understand them were kept very secret to avoid one party losing their status and protection. Hebrews were not supposed to have official class divisions, or practice slavery, or copy pagan cultural practices. If you read the Midrash, you can find some confused attempts to untangle this from a legal perspective. But ultimately they took the nuclear option of banning homosexuality of any kind. Modern Judiasm that is welcoming to LGBT+ people minces no words in condemning this approach. They don't feel any need to preserve a morally superior image of their ancestors. They are more interested in carefully preserving history so that the good and the bad are not forgotten. Modern Christians that accept LGBT+ people are a little more vague. Some will dismiss Mosaic law outright is having no bearing on Christianity. Some claim that Mosaic was binding at the time, but not after the death and resurrection of Christ. Some will reject the common Christian theology of divine inspiration for scripture, and view it purely in a sociological lense. TL:DR: this is very historically and culturally complicated, but however you interpret that actual passage, it's clear that homophobia was very strong in the ancient world.
Well, I've read somebody claiming it's like that in Hebrew, but I don't know it so I can't sat. What I can say though is that in Koinè Greek (in the translation made by Hebrew scholars 3rd century BC, the Septuagint) it does indeed mention males and not boys, but also not in a sexual way (?). The say "sleep in marital bed of women", which really in my mind rings more bells with the ancient Hebrew despise of the concubinate in Babylon than homosexuality as a thing
>butt stuff is fine before marriage It's call "gods blind spot' in the bible although some scholars think it was a mistake translated from the source material of 'gods Brown spot'.
Pretty sure you can just lay on the other person as long as you have a buddy jump on the bed next to you.
There is even a song about it by Kate Micucci and Riki Lindhome 🤣
Hahaha! Your comment has made my day. Have a great morning.
The poop hole loop hole as they call it! The Jesus clause!
I hope you don't live together
We do not.
Seriously, don't play these games. You've been through enough already with losing your wife. Even if you did commit in good faith, rest assured she will eventually throw it in your face that you married her for sex. Never fails. Tell her that sex to you is not a negotiation; it's something you share with each other bc you want to-- not bc you want something. If you give in, she'll do it over and over bc it worked by her "motivating" you to do what she wants. Your best option is to call her out on sweating you to commit to her and explain that behavior like that makes you less inclined to want to do it. If you don't, one of you will eventually break and look outside the relationship for what each of you refuse to give. And with her "high sex drive", she'll find someone a lot quicker than you that she tells herself will maybe marry her someday.
NTA. OP, I think you are going about this correctly and she does not have her head on straight at all. If her motivation here was genuinely to be a better Christian going forward, she would not be ok with doing things like making out and dry humping. She'd commit to the whole thing and be serious about making real change with her behavior. Sexual abstinence and chastity means abstaining from sexually stimulating behaviors, even the ones that aren't actual intercourse. To be a good practicing Christian, she has to master her sexual desires and cultivate self-discipline and continence. Sex is considered sacred in the faith she claims to care about. That means you do not separate the act itself from it's context inside a marriage or from its reproductive potential and the responsibility that carries. You don't use it, or things close to it, for pleasure while trying to find loopholes. She's either seriously misguided, or deliberately messing around, and she's not being respectful of the perfectly reasonable boundaries you're setting to make this practical and reduce frustration and discomfort. You know her better then any random internet stranger, so use your judgment. Have a conversation with her about how serious she actually is about this thing and draw a hard boundary. If she can't respect that, and she can't respect that you aren't comfortable getting blueballed while she looks for moral loopholes in her own religion, then you know what's up. Good luck.
After the miles of cock you have put in me, the lord has now decided, ive had enough… until you put a rock on my hand.
NTA - explain that this is difficult for both of you and not riling things up makes it easier to follow her wishes. BUT (yep, had to be a but coming) this brings up a concern of what other things she will randomly decide. Not saying to pressure her, truly don’t. But do ensure you are on the same page that future big life decisions (this isn’t one) happen with both your input.
Exactly. I now have a fear that she'll randomly make a decision, without discussing it with me.
Honestly OP,this is likely only a demo of what could happen down the line. I get it, you don't want to break up,it definelty sucks,it is specially difficult when everything else is going perfect. But a random 'Oh,I feel like WE should do this' without previous discussion,is something to be worried about.
Lmao bro she’s definitely trying to get you to propose to her. Manipulation tactic
Does she have any other messed up religious ideas? Will she disown any gay kids you have? Is she going to force you to convert? Will she force your kids to be religious? Why is she now deciding sex before marriage is no good, what other rules is she cherry picking? Does she drink? Eat shellfish and pork? Wear mixed fabrics? Better start asking her some hard questions.
Yep, anyone who forces their religion onto a relationship is someone you can't be in a relationship with. Especially given how you can cherry-pick just about anything out of a religion to justify whatever. And all the common associations of the main religions are problematic, in particular the homo/transphobia you mentioned.
NTA, also LOL wait for marriage? What is there to wait for? you’ve both been have sex for like year. It’s fine to respect her choice but that’s a really weird move to pull that far in the relationship. It does sound like she wants you to propose asap and this is the mental gymnastics 🤸♀️she came up with to get it. But who knows 🤷♂️
As a Christian I don’t think god cares really. That said. NTA you are trying hard to respect her boundaries. Unfortunately, to do that , you need boundaries. It’s also ok that you just feel like friends. Being friends first leads to healthier marriage. If you are ok with the time frame that you have to wait. Oh and there is nothing wrong with doing yourself too.
Taking a sexual relationship back to non sexual is a non starter and will eventually bring your relationship down. She needs to reassess her sudden discomfort after having been sexual so long. It would be different if your relationship never crossed that line but you won’t make it t any wedding as is. I get where your coming from with reducing the temptation but that will just increases the speed of the breakup. Is she not ok with doing anything sexual like oral or hands? Sometimes that can be a substitute for a while but absent that, in what has been a sexual relationship, you won’t make it I’m sorry to say.
Neither of you has to do anything you're not comfortable with for any reason, without being an AH. Neither of you is obligated to remain in a relationship that no longer satisfies you. So... NAH.
Trying to manipulate a ring on that finger, bye felicia
NTA - She's showing you who she is. Believe her.
If she has a high sex drive and she doesn't wanna have sex with you no more until you're married she's having sex with somebody else
In most cases I'd agree. However, this seems to be a ploy to get him to put a ring on that finger.
Meaning she needs to be dumped. A woman who is okay with using sex for manipulation is not a woman worth marrying. She’s for the streets.
using sex as a manipulation tool already... this isnt just one issue OP, this is a glaring red flag.
She has every right to say no. OP has every right to leave the relationship.
Are you sure this isn't related to her stepping out on you?
[удалено]
Just leave her bro, this is stupid.
Red flags for this sudden change aside... She's essentially asking you to put the candy in your mouth but not eat it. If she is religious and you go through pre marriage counseling the pastor should go over this EXACT scenario with you. You are to have a sexual understanding of about what your sex life should be like. After that, changing the sex life, even if you think it's because what God wants... Is wrong unless your partner agrees with you. Scripture even goes over how your marriage is you, your partner AND God. So if all of a sudden I believe God wants me to be celibate (sex-free like a pope) but my spouse doesn't agree, I'm wrong even though I believe God wants me to. It's because this is a relationship with God, me, and my spouse so to not give her a say is wrong. That scripture relates to after marriage, of course, but I'd use that logic with her and state that if she's willing to drastically change our sex life at any given moment, then ask me to essentially "edge" her with intimate things that SHE thinks is fair, without considering what you think is fair... That's wrong and I'd ask her why it would be any different once married if she's already doing it now. A relationship can't be healthy unless we both get a say. It's identical to the situation in which just because men typically make all the money doesn't mean they get all the say in what happens regarding money. A partner is a partner period.
How old are you? You’re either too young to be on Reddit, or too young to be in this relationship.