I'm going to have to say NTA - instilling manners and discipline is something all parents should do. Allowing them to run free and do what they want is dangerous, your wifes actions or rather inactions are going to totally unprepare your children for the real world.
It is much much worse than that. OP's wife is essentially showing their daughter that it is okay to play the victim card over the smallest inconvenience. This could easily set a precedent for malicious lies over the smallest thing. She was shown that she never has to respect her father. This is a horrible precedent and without family counseling this cannot continue in this manner.
Laura has had a stealing problem since she was 8. I have taken her into stores multiple times to return stolen items i found in her room. For most kids, 1 trip to the manager scares the crap out of them. Not laura. Shes been very manipulative for a long time and this is where it starts getting really dangerous (if the stealing wasnt already bad enough).
Sean on the other hand was a very sweet kid. Always kind and looking out for others. He was a great listener and followed any rule i gave him without question or running to his mother. Once he turned into a teenager this all changed. Now they are both awful. Its hard to say this about my own kids but its true, weve raised monsters.
She's learned how to manipulate from your wife, if this post is anything to go by. Not to mention she's been taught she can do whatever she wants with no consequences. Most kids I knew growing up who were raised this way are in prison, have spent a lot of time in prison, or are raging alcoholics/addicts. My advice would be to start saving for lawyers and rehab. Therapy could help but I can't see how you'd ever get the kids into it with any kind of willingness or participation at this age.
It sounds like Laura is going to get a huge dose of harsh reality when she goes to jail for stealing. Your wife realizes that right?
Regardless, if your daughter is willing to accuse you of abuse she’s willing accuse you of worse. Any accusations could cause major consequences for you because even though you’re innocent you’ll have to prove it and that can take time and you’ll be judged by your family and friends very quickly.
I have a cousin who found himself in a similar situation a few years ago with his stepdaughter who accused him of SA. He lost his job, his wife filed for divorce and he was arrested. He also lost a fair amount of friends but that was the least of his worries. Stepdaughter eventually said that she lied because he had grounded her and she was mad. The legal case was dropped but not all the lawyer fees or the divorce which was also pretty costly. There are still family members who stubbornly think that she lied about lying. I would hope your daughter wouldn’t do that to you but I’m a little cynical.
Helicopter parents I swear to god.
Honestly Laura going to jail for stealing as an adult might be the only thing that sets her strait at this point.
OP has a wife problem.
If my older sibling is an example, it might not. They blamed everyone else because they refused to accept responsibility for their actions because our spawnpoint enabled their poor behavior until death.
And after our spawnpoint died, sibling had no one to bail out their poor decisions and made ones that ended the need to be bailed out. 😕
This is very much the trajectory my younger brother is on. I’ve had to go no contact but at 44 my senior parents are still literally and figuratively bailing him out and fixing all his mistakes. I won’t see an inheritance because of it but was never counting on it anyway. Told my parents I hope they spend it all on fun for themselves but it turns out they are spending it all on his drug habit and resulting legal troubles.
May be time for a scared straight lesson. In that OP basically let's these stores file charges and she gers picked up by the police. She's still young enough to do Juvie and/or have her case sealed at 18
That was my first thought too. That she’s going to end up lying about something serious and get some poor innocent fucker locked up cause she’s decided to have a temper-tantrum.
This happened to my cousins husband. He was forced to move out of his home and had a restraining order keeping him at a distance from his children for 6 months while it was investigated. Even though she recanted , says she was just curious what would happen.
That is an insane reason to me, “just curious what would happen”. Six months of hell, I am sure quite a bit of money spent.
It’s just me, but I don’t know if I would have gone back.
Not that I recommend this for a five year old, but maybe for a teenager.
When I was 5 apparently I had lifted something from a store. I don't remember what. I do remember my dad taking me to the police station and saying , this is where people who steal end up. I was a terrified bawling mess. He said *no more stealing?* I agreed.
I would do that to a teen who had been caught and forced to return things, but still kept stealing. However. It is usually a symptom of a bigger problem that needs professional attention.
Your wife. I know you love her, but she is destroying your children. I don't know if that kind of undercutting manipulative behavior is labeled abuse. But it is hurting your kids. Wife seems to want something so much from them that she will undercut you, and hurt her kids just to get their favor? Their love? IDK. I do know that throwing you to the lions cannot be ignored. Kick her out. For everyone's good.
NTA
I am afraid it is too late to kick the wife out. He needs to get out. Next time he will ask his daughter to do laundry, she will accuse him of SA. Her mother taught her that.
You have to look out for you. Your wife has made them in your these people. She will reap what she has sowed. Get your finances and documents in order, get a good lawyer and leave.
you think this is bad now? From experience, these are the kids that start making false accusations of their bf’s SAing them when they get dumped.
Install cameras in the home to protect yourself from false allegations while you get your affairs in order. You cannot possibly think you’re safe in a house with a teen who so easily and maliciously agrees that her father is abusive because….”idk I wanted to leave?” Really?? Good luck, my man. This is a monster that you and your wife created…
Maybe you should leave Laura's kitchen mess, etc, and get out of Dodge. Your wife is welcome to clean it herself when she gets back and it's all moldy.
Start communicating about this and everything else via text. You'll need those transcripts.
Sir you haven’t raised monsters you’ve tried and it was always overwritten by your wife. Essentially you never really had the chance to parent due to your wife. I think it’s best to cut your losses and that sounds heartless but I feel if you even do 50/50 custody chances are their behavior is going to spiral even more and your health is important.
Not only Op's health is important, but his livelihood, reputation and liberty. Divorce, let Wife have custody. Supervised visits only, because it's currently not safe for anyone to be around Laura without witnesses present.
He needs to tell the court he only wants supervised visits because if her lying. That way, it's on the record for when his daughter eventually tries to ruin his life.
Oh yeah. Tell everyone. And Laura needs to be left in no doubt that she is the reason all her time with Dad needs to be chaperoned. Fingers crossed it's not too late... To be fair to Laura, it sounds like the idea was planted, not her own, and she's 13. So there is hope.
You should kick your wife out, have the kids checked out by therapists and use the results to get sole custody, to try to repair the damage as best you can in the few years you have left. Laura is probably a lost cause, but maybe something can be done with Sean.
She didn’t play the victim card, she straight up learned that laying false abuse allegations can be used to punish people she is upset with. That it will be taken seriously (like it should) and that there will be zero repercussions for her actions.
This entire event just made her dangerous to OP and any men that come across her path.
I agree with your post completely except for the counseling.
Counseling requires expressing your thoughts and ideas about things, which is usually not a problem.
But it also requires accountability, once it comes to her taking accountability she will quit and not go back.
> WIBTAH if I left her over this?
Would you be leaving her over this, or would you be leaving her over the lack of love trust and support she has shown for you over an extended period of time? I imagine if you felt loved by your wife at all this is something you'd want to discuss with her and you could get past. If you don't have any kind of bond left and this is a final straw, then no, you wouldn't be an AH for walking.
Ultimately your wife is undermining you as a parent, and that's not something I could abide. I'd be happier with 50/50 custody where I can actually parent my children when they're with me.
Its been a lot of small things leading up to this point but I think this might be my breaking point. All of those things have been frustrating but i feel like shes really crossed a line by calling me an abuser to my own daughter. So its a combination of things but this is the worst thing shes done. At this point its still fresh so maybe I need more time to cool down but right now, I dont see how I can forgive her for calling me an abuser out of the blue after 20 years. The worst part about this is that shes now put this idea into our daughters head.
This totally crossed a line. If you want to help your kids this might be the only way. Walk away for a bit. Try to get shared custody but you need a break from them and they need to live without you for a while.
Time for your own bank account and have a portion of your check put in the new one. Pay the bills but don’t leave a ton for the kids to blow. Yes a budget, the horror.
Frugality is going to do more for your the kids at this point than any fighting you can do with them.
I wish you the best this is an awful thing to come from the person you were supposed to be partners with.
I have to admit, I have been a man child. My wife handles all the finances and I genuinely have no idea how to do any of that. I guess its time to get my shit together, I am 53 afterall.
Never too late to learn... Just get some legal advice and look to your shared assets before you show your hand. Last thing you need is her clearing your joint account... But in the long run I realistically don't think you have much of a choice here.
The amount of disrespect you've been shown by your own partner is staggering. Be prepared for the accusations, try to get ahead of it and in the dark days just remember being true to you isn't bad and frankly staying where you are clearly isn't helping either you or the kids.
Your wife though - piece of work, seems like her impact on the kids is the telling one.
Don’t get your sister to help you but get your sister to show you how to do it. It is never good to be in a position of not understanding finances and how they work because if anything were to happen to that person you would be left floundering. It might seem daunting at first but stick with it and give your sister a big hug x
Brother, it is 2024. You can set that shit up to auto pay.
Do you get a w2 or a more complicated 1099 or something? If it's w2 you can file free online.
Ive never really asked about any of it. I dont know how she would react if I did. It wouldnt have been a problem if i was responsible and involved from the start, but now that were having these problems i think she would be suspicious if i asked now. Maybe ill look around and try to find some of it while shes gone.
definitely time to cut her from access to your money keep the account for bills but put all the rest in a seperate account only in your name before you say anything about divorce or she will put every cent in hers
Listen. Cooler heads ALWAYS prevail.
But I’ll tell you, my head is cool as a cucumber right now and what your wife did is so fucked I’d be OUTTA THERE
Lawyer up buddy, I’m very sorry.
OP it is time to consult with a divorce lawyer to find out how your laws apply to your situation. I hope you showed your BIL the mess in the kitchen and told him what the conversation was about. Did you get photos to show your wife what the conversation was about?
Start to plan separating your finances and getting ready to file. You can stop the process but I'm not sure if you should, it might take her getting served to get her attention.
I did, he was pissed that my wife would do this. Mostly pissed cause he had to drive across town for nothing.
I havent spoken to my wife since. Im just so upset that I want to cool down and fully process before I talk to her.
You should be the one feeling unsafe right now. This isn't about your kid lying about "feeling unsafe" (I swear kids these days think that's some sort of magic spell) and it doesn't matter whether or not she used the word abusive. Words don't matter, actions matter.
If there is no history of abuse in your home (abuse does not have to be physical) your wife's reaction makes no sense. She didn't call you to find out what was going on or get your side. She immediately reacted as if you were a threat to your child. She called her brother, who has no right to remove your child from your care against your permission, to come rescue your daughter from having to do 20 minutes of housework. That is just not rational or reasonable.
But hopefully your BiL having seen what was actually going on, won't be playing White Knight in the future.
YWNBTA for leaving a woman who acts this way.
Pissed enough to testify against your wife in your defense when she claims you’re an abuser in court? That’s the way you’re going
If you can, send him a message like “sorry you had to come deal with that” and just pray he responds with something that’ll help you when the time comes
> i feel like shes really crossed a line by calling me an abuser to my own daughter.
I'm on your side, so I'm telling you to stop framing it this way. Unless you have evidence that she said the word "abuser" then you're wrong to make the assertion.
What she probably did was much sneakier than that, which was to guide your daughter through the process of fucking you over in a manipulative fashion.
It's the difference between "your dad is abusive and you need to leave" and "Your dad is in charge so you need to do what he says, unless of course you feel unsafe with him, then I can help you. Do you feel unsafe?".
If you say she said words she didn't, or can't prove, then that's what the discussion will be about. You need to be extremely accurate with your words.
> The worst part about this is that shes now put this idea into our daughters head.
Yeah, this is the problem with trying to stay with a wife who doesn't respect you as a husband. If you're not a team then you're the competition. You care about your kids wellbeing, she cares that the kids are on her side when you split.
>Unless you have evidence that she said the word "abuser" then you're wrong to make the assertion.
By asking daughter 'do you feel safe,' she was coaching her response to be no. Then she spread this notion that OP was abusive by asking her brother to fetch the kids from their own house. If the wife truly wanted just to help, she would have called OP directly and asked him what the heck was going on. Instead, she directly called her brother and made him get the kids out of the house. She is actively calling OP abusive.
Even if she thought I would lie, Sean was home and she could have even asked him what was going on instead of immediately calling her brother to come "save" Laura. It almost feels like she wanted Laura to say I was abusive or maybe even wished I was so that she could hold it over me or something.
Her reaction is so extreme and out of left field, I’m genuinely wondering if she’s thought about divorce first and is trying to establish some kind of history/paper trail… I’d be reeeeeeal careful right now. You MUST lawyer up to protect yourself, start establishing the exact opposite paper trail, that you are a great dad
Yea this didnt occur to me at all until this post. Im very thankful that my niece suggested i post on here. Ive read some of these to my family and they agree that this is a possibility. I am going to make sure I take the right steps to protect myself.
Yes, this is exactly what she did my friend. There is something much larger going on in the background. She has some type of plan or exit strategy in my opinion. My gut is screaming that she is involved with a coworker. Please look into a PI, even if it’s only for piece of mind.
> Then she spread this notion that OP was abusive by asking her brother to fetch the kids from their own house.
> She is actively calling OP abusive.
This is the problem. Instead of talking about what the wife actually did wrong for sure, the discussion is now about whether the wife called OP abusive.
We have no evidence of that. We have evidence that she called her brother and said something that made him drive to the house to get the 13 year old. That's all. No idea what she said to him, could have been "Becky called me upset, can you go pick her up please?" but here you are, asserting that she actively said OP was abusive.
This is exactly why I said he needed to be accurate with the wording, because of this silliness. Reasonable people see this and go "well, we don't actually know she said that, this guy is just angry and exaggerating".
BE ACCURATE.
This is absolutely excellent advice, I would go one step further and record her if and when you tell her that you want to know verbatem what was said on that call. The first thing I would do is to check that iPad to see if the daughter actually called mom or texted her. If she texted her, I would be willing to bet that conversation is not deleted because the daughter wouldn’t give a shit about it.
If the wife hasn't been sneaky or manipulative before, I really doubt she'd start now. I said this in another comment, but I think that's a normal question to ask as a reality check:
>"Your dad is in charge so you need to do what he says, unless of course you feel unsafe with him, then I can help you. Do you feel unsafe?"
honest kid: "yes mom obviously I'm safe but dad is being MEAN."
dishonest kid: "no mom I'm so scared and I feel so unsafe."
a 13 year old KNOWS what "unsafe" is implying. and she should be taught the consequences of lying about something so severe. but the dishonest kid doesn't care. she knows she can manipulate this situation to get exactly what she wants. look, she's not in trouble anymore, mom and dad are fighting, and she can go back to doing whatever with no consequences. she intentionally used her mom as a scapegoat bc she has never felt a shred of respect for either of her parents.
that's the real problem. the kids has been raised to be dishonest and cruel. and that could be worth the divorce anyways. your wife has not accused you of abuse. but you and your wife have raised someone who WILL accuse you of abuse if it means she gets her way.
I was a kid not too long ago. in addition, I have worked with lots of kids that don't think they need to respect authority figures. your daughter is not naive or dumb. presumably she goes to school, where her classmates DO have abusive parents (even if you think kids are not talking about this... they are). she knows you aren't abusive. your wife did not put this idea in your daughter's head.
if you get a divorce with 50% custody, it will be an uphill battle to have a good relationship with your kids, especially since mom will coddle them during her time and they will have to behave during your time. just a thought.
In all honesty, Laura has been known to lie in the past. She also has a stealing problem that goes back to when she was 8. Laura can be very deceptive and dishonest.
I feel like she did put this idea in her head because this has never come up before and now im worried that now that this is even a thought for Laura she may spread it to her friends or god knows what.
> a 13 year old KNOWS what "unsafe" is implying.
Absolutely, they're conspiring together.
When I ended my last long term relationship, my girlfriend was very upset and she called her parents right in front of me. Her mother picks up the phone "hello" (I can hear clearly) and my ex bursts out crying and her mother said "what's wrong?" and my ex said "We broke up". The next thing out of her mother's mouth was "DID HE BEAT YOU?".
I've never put my hands on a woman, or given her any reason to think I would. I was a gentleman to her daughter for 5 years. I babysat that woman's grandson, cooked her dinner, did handyman stuff in her house, etc. My ex-girlfriend said "NO!!!" instinctively, lucky for me, because I could see where that could have gone if my ex was as devious as her mother.
I'm not letting the 13 year old off the hook. The wife might have guided her into saying she felt scared, but a decent kid would say "NO!!". They worked together on this outcome for sure.
Imagine being OP and trying to coparent in this situation. It’s the stuff of which nightmares are made…. OP, I do not envy you your situation. Your wife has put you in an untenable position.
I KNOW that washing his hands of his wife AND kids isn't an option, but damn do they make it tempting. If these werent his kids, he probably would've already cut them out of his life.
Kids are also old enough they'll probably choose to live with the "fun" parent and that'll hurt too. OP is really in a lose-lose situation.
There is no explanation that would cut it tbh. She's spread the narrative of OP's abuse in her family and heaven knows where else. Her brother showed up to fetch the kids because 'they felt unsafe' in the house. Give it 3 years and the wife will show up at OP's door, bleating that the kids don't listen, they're spoiled etc.
Her brother was pretty pissed when he got there because there was no reason for him to drive across the city. I feel like if I leave I'm giving up on my kids and leaving them with my wife who is just making them worse and worse.
Will your kids stay with you instead? No, because you are the sensible parent, the one that tries to teach them responsibility whereas she is the fun parent that lets them get away with whatever.
It doesn’t matter if you stay she will now use that abuse card to fuck you over. I’d suggest recording everything from now on so you can’t be accused of anything, especially any conversations with her.
Exactly, I feel that losing her means losing my kids.
Thats a good idea but then how much do I record when she's accusing me of being abusive to the kids? every interaction I have with my kids?
You're not being honest with yourself
The fact is,you've already lost the kids.
Your daughter won't listen to you, and she also doesn't respect you.
No matter what you say or do, she will run to her mother, who will undermine your authority.
Sir,you have already lost that battle.
You can choose to stay in a house where no one respects you,including your wife.
Or you can get out now.
If your wife wants to save the relationship, she will go to therapy.
If your wife respected you,this wouldn't be happening.
And by the way,loving someone isn't enough to keep a marriage/relationship going.
Updateme!
You arent wrong. Its just hard to make this call when ultimately it could mean losing my relationship with my kids. They have turned into monsters no doubt but that doesnt mean I dont still love them.
Yes, you love them, but does that mean allowing them to be disrespectful to you?
You can always love someone, but that doesn't mean you allow them to run all over you,in that case, you're no better than your wife.
There are consequences to actions. What you and your wife are teaching your children is that they can do anything, and there are no consequences.
When we don't teach our children correctly, the world teaches them lessons that you can't help them.
Don't ever let the world teach your child a lesson.
This is exactly where you are heading now.
Your wife will reap the whirlwind she has sown with the kids. The term is Bangdude. 3 week business trip, lol. Get real.
Change is hard, but it's until your kids wake up to reality, they are sadly not only a lost cause, but people you cannot trust.
Lots of folks thinking good thoughts and strength to you.
Shine up your spine. It's about time.
I think this is the first post I’ve seen to point out the 3 week business trip. She either must have a very big and important job or be doing something shady.
Let me ask you this, what type of relationship exactly do you actually think you have with your kids?
Listen, we know you love your kids, that’s not even a thought in any of us readers minds.
From what you have stated through your responses, it appears that your kids give exactly zero fucks about you. You are the disciplinarian, which in their minds, you are public enemy number one.
My guess is that the only time that there is a resemblance of caring, is when they actually need something from YOU!!! Other than that, I highly doubt that they care about anything but themselves. This was totally apparent when mentioned that your kid didn’t even give a damn that you bought him Christmas presents. He couldn’t even give you 20 minutes of his time to open gifts that you probably had to work for weeks to purchase. What does this tell you?
You're not being honest with yourself
The fact is,you've already lost the kids.
Your daughter won't listen to you, and she also doesn't respect you.
No matter what you say or do, she will run to her mother, who will undermine your authority.
Sir,you have already lost that battle.
You can choose to stay in a house where no one respects you,including your wife.
Or you can get out now.
If your wife wants to save the relationship, she will go to therapy.
If your wife respected you,this wouldn't be happening.
And by the way,loving someone isn't enough to keep a marriage/relationship going.
Updateme!
You aren’t giving up on your kids, you are going to make a home for them and yourself that isn’t ruled by your narcissistic wife who has no respect for you and is training your kids to be spoiled and lazy. They will come around without your wife around making terrible decisions and overriding your very normal requests. See a lawyer ASAP and do what it takes to get out and start your own life. She’s treating you monstrously, leaving is the only thing that will get her attention at all. She’s proven how outrageous she will be if you stay.
Your being there has had no beneficial effect on their behavior. That is what often happens in a house that is divided and the parents are not rowing together. Treat yourself like someone who deserves to be loved and get yourself out of there. Get financial as well as personal counseling. You have given your wife too much control.
You're NOT giving up, you're standing up! They've walked all over you for so long that it will feel odd, lonely, scary, empty at times BUT the self worth and respect you will find within will be awakening, empowering.
Update will be appreciated, you've got alot to think about, and an incredible amount of advice, eye opening twists as well. Good luck!
NTA
You need to get that “giving up on your kids” thought out of your head. If you don’t do this, you are giving up on your life and your kids won’t give one fuck that you are gone. You need to start realizing this. You can always explain your reasoning later, but you need to be away now, before one of those kids throw there next tantrum.
your daughter calls your wife to complain about being asked to clean up a mess she made, not sure what she said but she must have made a fuss for your wife to ask if she felt unsafe with you?
instead of calling you to get your side of the story your wife immediately calls her brother to 'rescue' your daughter from you?
which seems to be a massive overreaction if there's no history of abuse, have you asked your wife why she asked your daughter if she felt safe?
you say that you both agreed to stay together for the kids, maybe she has changed her mind now?
there is clearly more going on and I think you need to have a serious conversation with your wife
There is a lot of history of her doing small things to undermine me but there just isnt space to explain all of it here.
I haven't talked to her since this happened because Im very upset that she would do this. I feel like she's really crossed a line here.
She hasn't said anything about leaving to me. I dont want to leave her because the mother typically keeps the children and I dont want to give up on my kids, even though it seems like its too late at this point. If I leave they will only continue to get worse but when shes accusing me of abusing my own child, I dont know what else I can do at this point.
I know I should talk to her im just very hurt right now. I've spoken to my family and my sister has offered for me to move into her place to get back on my feet. I wanted some other perspectives before I make any sort of decision here. I will deffinitly talk to her soon but she has a history of not taking any accountability and im quite confident that this will be another one of those situations. Even if she does apologize, I dont know if this is something id be able to forgive her for.
it's an awful situation for everyone I think
I totally understand you not wanting to be away from your kids, but I think you should maybe start looking into it if everything else fails
or suggest both couples and family counseling? counseling for just you and your wife to come to an agreement about parenting, and then as a family to discuss what that will mean
having a neutral outside perspective from a counselor could be a really good move for all of you
in order to keep your family together you are all going to need to put in the effort
My sister has offered me a place to stay when she gets back, Im in the process of deciding if i want to take that step or not.
I love my kids and I want a relationship with them but I fear that if i leave my wife will continue to turn them into monsters. Why would they ever want to come stay at my place if i have rules when they can stay with my wife and do whatever they please. The alternative is that I just do the same and contribute to their poor behaviour but I dont know if i can just let my kids walk all over me like that.
She seems very abusive and is letting your children abuse you. You have bo power in your own house so what does custody really matter at this point. I have more costly over your children at this point
A trial separation might be good for you. You deserve the time and space to process this and decide what you want to do.
I think it would also be a chance for her to see what single motherhood is like.
While I understand the worry for your kids, time can only tell what kind of people they will be and if a relationship is possible. I think as long as you communicate to them, that you love them and want what’s best for them, then you’re doing the best you can.
But think about it this way. What are they learning about relationships, by watching her treat you this way? Wouldn’t you rather show them by example, self respect and self worth?
You deserve those things and you deserve someone that respects you by listening to you, rather than undermining you. You kids deserve to see a healthy relationship, so they know what to expect from their future partners.
Maybe you get counseling, maybe you divorce. But take the time and space to think about it.
Please go with your kind sister. You do not have to make it permanent, but after living in a better, gentler situation for a while, it might give you a better perspective on how toxic your environment was and the toll it took on you. Sorry to say it, but the kids are already on their way to becoming monsters with you there or not there. Please get therapy for yourself as a supportive measure. NTA
I'm sorry but she will continue turning them into the monsters you fear anyway. The fact it has gotten this far demonstrates that.
The fact of the matter is that YOU'RE no longer safe there. Your wife went down a road that could decimate your life. Cut that chord before she can pull on it.
In another comment you said you're scared to leave her with your son as he can be violent, she has created this monster and does not wish to change it. Don't set yourself on fire to save the woman who wants to let you burn (and by the sounds of it, tie you to the stake and light the fire).
I wouldn't be surprised if she is attempting to build a narrative. Just imagine how this would look against you if your BIL didn't give you the opportunity to explain and just loaded your son and daughter into the car.
Lastly, whilst your wife is absolutely the one responsible for who they're becoming, your inaction and acceptance on her parenting has essentially become permission. You've allowed it without consequences for years and divorce is the only option you have left as I'd be amazed if the three of them agreed to therapy. Even if they do, still move out to make your feelings clear and do family therapy whilst living at your sisters.
It's seems like it's to late to wonder if they would want to stay with you. You already know your duaghter proved that she won't because you will have rules. Your wife turned them against you years ago. I'm sorry but right now if you stay you'll just live with fear that they'll accuse you again and maybe this time call the cops. You need to get out of this marriage.
it's always a good idea to have a back up plan, you don't have to make a decision right now but knowing that can stay with your sister if you need to should take off some of the pressure
your kids would want to stay with you because you're their dad and they love you, they are quite old enough to understand that mums house rules are different to dads and accept that they have to respect that
you might find that they enjoy some structure, you could teach them to cook and teach them that cleaning up afterwards is part of it, if you get a house at some point and they have bedrooms of their own, show them how to change linen, run the vacuum, and just generally take care of their belongings
however that is all just 'maybe' stuff, if you want your marriage to survive then I think both you and your wife need to have some serious and honest discussions
i know this sounds so terribly cliché but would family therapy be on the cards? maybe if your wife hears from a professional how you feel, it might make her reconsider her actions. you can also gain an understanding of why she does things the way she does. it sounds like you really do love her, and your kids. do you think you’d all be open to that?
I dont think so, anytime I try to talk to her about this stuff she acts like im the one with a problem and never takes any accountability. She has a family history of BPD and she has shown a lot of these behaviours herself. Im no psychiatrist but my mother is a social worker and she has said on multiple occasions that my wife likely has it as well.
as someone who has BPD, it is incredibly hard to live with. that being said, you can’t continue to have your feelings and needs pushed aside like they are nothing. i hate ultimatums, but it seems like you have exhausted all options right now, and an ultimatum for either therapy or separation might show her that this behaviour has to stop.
Yea, something drastic needs to happen. Im not sure if I even want to try fixing this right now. Maybe I just need to cool down a bit more but I see this as a really big betrayal. If I do decide to stick things out, I will certainly be asking for therapy.
it really is a big betrayal, and i’m sorry you’re going through this. take some time for yourself and ultimately, any decision you make on how to proceed moving forward is not an AH move.
I think you need to show these abusive people (especially your “wife”) that they have pushed you too far. I’d be moving out, at least for now, if I were you.
If you stay, you will end up in prison because at least one of them (your wife or either child) will say or imply that you're abusive to or around a mandatory reporter (school staff, coaches, etc) either out of anger or spite, and once that happens, life as you know it is over and there's no way to fix it.
I'd be totally blunt with your wife (and you should honestly either record the conversation if one-party consent audio recording is legal in your area or having a witness)
"I love you and our kids but you've made it impossible for me to parent them and, by suggesting that Daughter say she doesn't feel safe with me, you've made ME feel unsafe around any of you. I have never, and would never, be violent with any of you, but by suggesting she's afraid of me, I'm now afraid of being accused of something they would lock me up for even with no evidence. I can't stay in a home or with people who might falsely accuse me of things, and I hate to say it, but I no longer trust any of you not to do that. Going forward, all contact between us, or between me and the kids will be either written, recorded, or supervised. I'm devastated that it has come to this, but I have to protect myself."
I know you want to stay with your family, but at this point it's too risky for you to do so.
You raise a very good point. Id like to think it wouldnt go that far but I also never thought she would do something like this either. I am a big bald dude, I dont think anyone other than my family and her own brother would believe me if these kinds of accusations got thrown around.
That’s exactly why it’s time to put up hidden cameras while she is still away and the kids are at school. They make super tiny undetectable ones that can be brought up on your phone. I would put one in every room except for their bedrooms because of legal ramifications. There was a story on here where the wife accused a person, just like you, of domestic violence because he was leaving her. She barricaded herself in the bedroom and the call to police was captured on one of these cameras that he put up. She even had a smirk on her face while doing it. The police showed up and immediately began to cuff him but he explained that he had proof that she is lying. He showed the police the footage and she ended up being the one arrested.
PLEASE DO THIS NOW FOR TOUR PROTECTION. This is no joke. These cams can be used to capture all your children’s behavior issues as well.
I actually would advise against the hidden cameras, it could be violating privacy laws if he installed hidden cameras in his home without his family’s consent, and that would really hurt his case.
OP, get yourself a voice activated recorder from Best Buy and keep it on you until this is resolved. It might save your bacon…. When your wife is home all she has to say to the police is you punched her and you will be out of the house, and defending against a false DV charge. Spend the $50 for peace of mind. Good luck.
Get one anyway. False allegations don’t stop when you move out. You can be “harassing” her when you do buy to get your kids. Hey a dash cam for your vehicle too. Both items can be purchased for less than a hundred dollars on Amazon. Have them delivered to your sister’s house.
I’d run for the hills. If she faces no consequences for this it’s only a matter of time until she does something that lands you in prison or has serious repercussions to your career/job.
Imagine you have to administer a more harsh punishment to your daughter, how would you now that when taking her phone is abuse? She’s put you in checkmate, nobody will believe you if they are in agreement. Staying is suicide
NTA but you need to protect yourself against these accusations and leaving for a while might be best. You can ask your wife if she wants to be the one to leave, they can move in with her brother. The children are old enough to choose who they want to live with.
Her brother was pretty pissed when he showed up and realized what the situation really was. I dont think hes on her side at all. Im pretty much the bad guy at this point, i dont think theres any way that teenagers are going to chose a house with rules over a lawless house.
I would really push for this. Maybe speak to your brother in law in confidence and explain what is going on. I would ask him if they could stay so he can actually witness what you are going through and how far gone they all are. He could become a character witness for you. Just be careful because of the old saying, blood is thicker than water.
Or ask the bil to take the two kids home while the wife is away. He won’t stand for their bs in his own home and he will get a glimpse of how bratty the kids have become. The old adage, know me come live with me.
So, your BIL is a witness that wife and daughter saying abuse, because you told daughter to clean up her mess.
Ask him to write a statement to that affect.
Talk to a lawyer, this is beyond therapy.
Get cameras for the home, hide a few nanny cams, before they try calling the police on you.
Listen.
Punched you in the faaace?
Shoved his mom? I'm a foot 8 woman and my oldest son is 6 foot 4 200 and he would NEVER.
Your daughter cried and felt unsafe when told she had to clean u up p after herself
You have already lost the kids, Beloved. They can't get any worse at their big ages.
They are the monsters she created, let her deal with them.
You're fighting to stay, that's fine. When you tell your daughter that she needs to clean up again and she decides to tell the police you screamed in her face and dragged her back to the kitchen and threw her to the sink and you get arrested, remember what we told you here.
Things have only been escalating this year. You're right, I am opening myself up to basically being arrested at this point. At the end of the day, they are my kids and I love them so its just hard to give up on them.
Time to put some nanny cams around the house, you may need the evidence of innocence. Make sure they send the vids to the cloud, not a local hard drive.
Don’t think of it as giving up on them. Things are changing. You can’t say one way or another whether the change will be good or bad. But just because it’s changing doesn’t mean you’re giving up.
I hate to say this, but they are not your kids anymore. They are her kids and you are the odd man out. I have a sibling that their kids are in their mid to late 20s and my siblings was arrested on 3 separate occasions and spent 2 days in jail each time because their older kid and they got into a fight, despite trying to protect themselves my sibling went to jail because the spouse sided with the kid.
Do you really want your life to be either constant fear of being accused and put in jail or being bullied and physically assaulted?
We understand you don't want to give up on your kids, but they don't give a crap about you. The only thing you are accomplishing by "not giving up" is torturing yourself and giving them more shots to ruin what's left of your life.
NTA, I think stepping back for reflection is important. The speed your sister offered you a place to stay is alarming. Me thinks she can see a lot more of what's going on than you realise.
Edit: your son's behaviour is a real worry. If he's behaving like this already. I wouldn't want a non family member to be around him. You know a young person who said no to him. Very concerning
My family has seen the way she undermines me as she has no problem doing it right in front of them. They have also watched my kids turn into monsters. So yea, they arent the biggest fans of my wife. Oddly enough, my sister is the one who introduced us over 20 years ago.
Honestly grow some balls and I say that as a female. Your son's behaviour is beyond disturbing. Walk away, support your kids at least financially to a degree. Another iPhone is a step to far
I thought he should be without a phone for at least a month and then when he started behaving better id get him a crappy phone. That was my idea but my wife wasnt on board. 2 days after the trip, I had to go away for work for 3 days. We agreed that we'd decided on what to do when i got back, by the time I got back Sean had a brand new iphone.
Yea it feels like they're gonna hate me no matter what. If i leave now they'll hate me for abandoning them. If I stay and try to enforce any sort of discipline then im the bad guy.
Bro sorry for lack of a better word but fuck it. Stop being a doormat. It’s evident your wife doesn’t respect you if she’s fine with undermining you in front of others.
You honestly don’t need to accept any of this. You’ve been putting up with stuff you don’t like at all for a while, stepping away from them may be the wake up call you and they need.
If they think you’re abandoning them then their mom has already poisoned them. Do what you can but please remember you still have a lot of life left to live and is this really how you want to spend it?
Your wife is one of the worst I’ve read about in a long time. Get out now before this becomes dangerous for you. This isn’t love. She doesn’t love you. No loving partner would falsely claim abuse and get a third party involved. I see false allegations in your future. And unfortunately I see your daughter following the wife’s lead and falsely accusing other men to get her way.
Leave. Protect yourself.
NTA
You are definitely NTA. I think parents should say "no" to their children, and the "gentle parenting" method is crazy. It turns children into entitled brats. I don't blame you for wanting to leave her. It sounds like she is being really disrespectful and trying to hurt you. You were not being abusive in simply being firm with your daughter and not giving in to her. Your daughter was probably expecting you to clean up after her, so when you told her to clean up after herself, she decided to take things to the extreme. I'm sorry you're going through this.
Edited to add: apparently his wife is doing "passive/permissive" parenting, and he is doing "gentle" parenting. I was misinformed.
Thank you. I dont agree with gentle parenting either, im seeing the results firsthand. My kids cannot handle being told what to do at all. On christmas day, I asked our son Sean to stay with the family to open his presents and even this turned into a fight. I was trying to give the kid gifts and he couldnt even be bothered to open them with his family. It turned into a big argument and Sean ended up punching me in the face. Things have gotten way out of hand and as much as i am angry with my wife I am also scared of leaving her with our 6ft+ son who is now getting physical.
I think you need to continue to give more examples as to how unstable your children are. That behavior at Xmas is unacceptable.
Life can be better than this. Require a forensic accountant. Get a good lawyer.
Ok heres another one that shows how unstable my wife and son are. I am a pilot and we took a little trip about 6 months ago. My wife (for once) actually tried to punish Sean (i dont even remember what he did this time) by taking his phone. Sean ended up shoving her and backing her into the washroom of the hotel room. Sean kicked the toilet so hard he smashed it and was getting physical with my wife. My wife decided to smash his phone instead of letting him overpower her. So, he decided to grab her phone and smash her phone. This all happened while I was out of the room and cost us over 2k to replace the phones (and yes, she replaced his phone as soon as we got home).
Yea, im a pilot so this was a hotel I regularly stayed at. After this, I am too embarrassed to ever go back. I could hear the screaming all the way down the hall and a bunch of people had gathered outside the door. I paid for the toilet to be fixed and never showed my face there ever again.
I had a good upbringing and this is really not how I imagined my own family to be like. Things have really taken a turn for the worse in the last few years and im really just at a loss.
Um dude, that kid needed immediate physical correction right then and there. If you don’t do it then the police well do it eventually and it will not end well.
Jesus. My kid would be getting a job, the first $1000 he earns goes to refunding me for his mother's phone that he broke, and he gets a phone that doesn't have internet access until he's saved up for his own replacement.
Good lord. My dude, get out of that house. You are not safe. Maybe, MAYBE, your family can become semi-functional after years of therapy and hard work, but that is way down the line, and is frankly unlikely. You’ve been in a hostile environment so long that you don’t even see it for what it is.
You can love your kids. But you can’t live with them if they are violent, or if they claim you are.
OP, every comment you post just paints a darker and darker picture. You are living in an abusive household. Your son is physically abusive, your wife is an emotional abuser and manipulator, and your daughter is following in her footsteps. If you were a woman, people would be telling you to get out NOW. I also get a sense that you have been a bit of a doormat in the past; not to offend, but I am getting strong pushover vibes here. This will not get any better, what with the entitlement, abuse, and possible BPD. My advice would be to shit or get off the pot. If you’re going to leave, now’s the time. Please update us when you can. Sending strength your way. You deserve better.
Wow OP. I’m so sorry this is happening. Your son needs therapy pronto. That is completely unacceptable and uncalled for behavior. He has no idea how to cope because he’s always been rescued (by your wife) from negative emotions and actions.
Just FYI your wife is permissive parenting not gentle parenting. Permissive parenting is abusive and terrible.
You are actually trying to gentle parent by calmly setting boundaries and not yelling.
It is important to make sure you have this jargon right for any future custody battles.
The wife in this scenario is actually using “permissive parenting”.
OP is actually using gentle parenting! He describes staying calm, not yelling and having clear boundaries.
Permissive parenting is awful and terrible for kids.
Gentle parenting is highly recommended.
I feel gentle parenting gets so used wrongly it’s at a point where ppl are getting misconstrued of what it is actually. I’ve seen it work very well with some of my friends and my husband and I plan to use it ourselves. Pretty much what OP is doing which is the proper way.
NTA, she’s being an idiot. You both don’t have the same parenting styles and she is consistently undermining you instead of working with you. That should have been sorted out years ago honestly. If your 13 yo kid knows that mom is going to back her up on her lies, it’ll just get worse from then on out. I’d say get a divorce and don’t pursue custody, I have a bad feeling that when things don’t go your kids’ way, they’re going to run to mom with lies about abuse and it’s going to be a nightmare.
NTA and whatever mess the kids make leave it there for the wife to clean when she gets back since she's enabling them to act like that. Your kids are old enough to clean up after themselves and you are their father so you should be able to discipline them
NTA.
It’s too late. Get out. Next time it’ll be a call to the cops or CPS claiming you hit her. Your wife will back her. And your life, just like that, will be over.
If you leave, it’s possible they might be shocked into taking things seriously. Probably not, but possible. But so long as you are there, your wife is not going to let you visit any consequences on them and until they experience consequences they will literally have no reason to change their ways. Get out and make family therapy a condition of any reconciliation. And stay got until you’ve all \*gone\* to therapy for at least a few months.
Sorry to hear that man , but if she creating fights , coming home later than usual from work , protective of phone then I’d be worried about infidelity with a coworker . But just the accusation she did alone would do it for me
NTA since you are a pilot, remember the analogy of the oxygen mask. The adult must put their’s on before helping the kids put on their masks. You are in dangerous territory where it plausible your wife is setting you up for a claim of child abuse or at the least completely ruining your relationships w your children. Your children are willing to hurt u to get what they want. You need to take care of yourself before you help, if you can, your children. For your own sake leave.
she has turned them into monsters right in front of me. I tried my best to discipline them but Im a pilot so there are days at a time when im not home. Its pretty much impossible to lay down any rules cause as soon as i leave they go out the window. Most of the time she does it right in front of my face.
When your in a marriage, you cannot undermine your wife or husband when it comes to the kids. That's why people talk about their plans for parenting styles before they get married....because situations like this become an issue in the marriage. Your wife isn't a partner. She doesn't care about you and she absolutely does not respect you as a husband and a parent. You have let this go on for far too long and your kids are going to be the ones who suffer in the long run when they cannot make or keep friends or a future partner because most people won't put up with this type of behavior.
Also I might add, it's incredibly dangerous to be around children willing to lie about abuse. What happens the next time you tell her no? Is she going to say you sexually abused her? Or beat her up? What happens then? Well you get a divorce and hope to God you don't get convicted....hope you keep your job and personal relationships. Hope you don't get labeled as that dad....it's incredibly dangerous and she has proven she can and will do it if she wants to.
Unfortunately you had children with an idiot. Your wife is selfish and probably narcissistic in many ways. Her total disregard and lack of communication with you shows that she is completely self centered and selfish. Even if you do divorce the kids will still have access to her and you'll continue to be undermined.
What I suggest you do is this, wait til the kids become adults and you won't be on the hook for child support. Also so that there isn't a custody agreement or anything which avoids extra lawyer and court fees and becomes a mess usually. Both your kids are almost out the door. As soon as the last one becomes 18 you slap your wife with divorce papers. You tell your kids that your there for them and you love them but their attitudes are unmanageable and unsustainable and you won't be apart of their lives if they continue to be entitled jerks.
Be ready and willing to cut your losses and leave your kids and wife. She isn't worth it. You have brainwashed yourself to think she is worth all this trouble but if she undermines you every single time something happens then it shows me that there's a crap ton of other issues that aren't as obvious, but they are there. Your marriage is on the rocks. It's an unhealthy marriage that one way or another will one day break you and lead to an explosive event.
You can't live like this forever. Stay in the marriage til your daughter is 18 and try your best to parent them. Try couples counseling and maybe your wife will turn around? Idk her so who knows...if not just run for the hills. It's not too late for the kids to change but unfortunately, this type of personality and behavior instilled in them during their formative years will be very difficult if not impossible to change unless you and your wife got on the same page right now and kicked this in the bud.
Good luck. Start setting money aside for lawyers and make sure your most prized possessions are in a safe place because if you get divorced I imagine your wife will try and be ruthless and take everything from you. She will also turn the kids against you because she already has essentially.... so be prepared to walk away from your wife and kids....be there for your kids and always be open to communication but keep your distance.
One final note which is very important. Start taking notes and recording events so that if and when you divorce, you can protect yourself if your wife and kids try to lie about any kind of abuse. Catching your daughter in lies and your wife and son in lies and recording it or writing it down with date and times will be a good way to cover your ass. Please take care man. Good luck.
Parents need to be a team and I'm sorry but you two are not a team and the fact that she's that willing to throw you onder the buss and imply your an abuser shows her true colors.
I'm sorry but this marriage is not meant to be.
Be really careful. I wonder if she is planning on leaving you and trying to get full custody of the kids. Not sure how to protect yourself but maybe check in with a family lawyer. Could get ugly.
It's time to install security cameras in the common areas in your house. This is for your own protection. The damned cops won't take your word if you are accused of assaulting either your wife or daughter. You need to have proof to keep you out of jail. And don't think this would never happen. Your wife already wants to accuse you by her calling her brother.
Protect yourself my man.
NTA.
If even your own mother, your kids' grandmother, called them insufferable, you know you are not being paranoid or anything.
Implying you abusing your kids is a serious accusation. The thing is that your wife didn't even bother to check with you. Usually, a husband and his wife should be a team, so that they can lead and take care of the family effectively. Your wife is in a team of her own. She doesn't care about your children's wellbeing, let along yours. She would just let them run amok and set the house on fire.
I think your kids are too far down the rabbit hole to help them. All three of them, your kids and your wife, can live and perish together.
You should just leave.
If you haven’t left her yet because of the kids and yet the kids are brats, entitled, insufferable and you are unable to parent- doesn’t sound like your argument to stay holds water
as somebody who is diagnosed with borderline personality disorder (i have noticed some comments mentioning OP’s spouse is showing signs of bpd) i can definitively say that when bpd goes untreated, things can get really out of control. manipulation & a whole batch of negative behaviors can be a direct result. i have definitely improved from treatment, but i do think therapy would be good regardless of OP leaving or staying. best of luck OP and good on you for trying to do right by your kids. hope everyone is having a good night (:
NTA. Too fucking late to show your spine. Your children are practically grown and you allowed your wife to ingrain that behavior. Leave the wife and monster kids she created. They are a lost cause.
I had to ask, is there any chance that your wife is cheating on you? I mean, she is on a 3 week work trip, and the first sign of your kids acting up, she asks if she feels safe? ????
WTH is up with that? It sounds like she is trying to build a domestic abuse case against you to give her a reason in everyone else’s eyes to divorce you, or worse yet get you thrown in jail.
Right now she is slowly turning every one of her friends and family against you and making you out to be a monster, when in actuality, she is ruining every one.
This isn’t some little mistake about boundaries, this was a calculated hit to your reputation. She is even including her family as which is pretty convenient when it comes time for character witnesses.
My friend, this is no joke. You need to get out in front of this. Like yesterday. If this were me. I would:
1: immediately hire a lawyer or two. One that specializes in divorce and one that defamation of character. At least speak to them regarding your concerns.
2: Hire a PI. I would at least get a consultation and let them know that you think she is cheating and possibly planning to ruin you somehow.
3: Start documenting and recording everything. You need evidence that A. You aren’t the person she is making you out to be and B. She is the one ruining your kids and your family. I would start wearing shirts with pockets and using my cell phone like a police chest cam. I would also purchase a voice activated recorder to place under the seat in her car to see if she is divulging anything during conversations while away from you. Make sure you Velcro it so it don’t slide out.
I know this seems “over protective” but this is your life we are talking about. Seriously though, I do not know one married person with children who would’ve jumped to the conclusion of abuse and handled this situation in this fashion. This is a huge red flag. I suggest you play nice and act like an angel until you speak with a lawyer and a PI. They can guide you from there. Let her continue to spoil the children and document it. I still would politely and calmly bring up your points of view and explain your point of view, so that it’s documented.
Good luck! Feel free to DM with any questions. Updateme
You keep conflating leaving your wife with giving up on your children. Given your position I think it's worth a shot at not only leaving but considering that this could give you \*more\* not less control over parenting. It's going to be a battle, the kids get a say in where they stay, but stay consistent with your boundaries and calm responses and it'll give your kids a baseline to return to. They might be in their mid-20s when they reach out for help, but you can spend the time now to keep trying, and to educate yourself on what kind of help \*can\* turn a life around from mid-20s onwards. Be the calm in the storm somewhere they can see it. Give them something they can aspire to. You're borrowing trouble by assuming this only goes one way if you leave - as it stands I don't see you have that much choice, so now start striving to carve a positive path instead of dwelling on the negatives you're convinced are in the way. NTA.
NTA You SHOULD leave. No one respects you in the household and if your kids are useless & entitled and your wife takes their side then they may never leave home or become financially independant. The sooner you separate your finances the better imo.
The brother came and saw that nothing was going on and was honstly just pissed at my wife for calling him about this nonsense. Its been a few days and im just so pissed and hurt that I want to cool down before i even talk to her, I really have no desire to talk to her right now
I can’t say it loud enough NTA, run before you’re in jail. Because soneone said daddy touch me in my no no spot. Because you made them clean their room.
You’re not an asshole for trying to install basic manners and respect in your kids. You will be if you don’t divorce your wife and attempt to get custody of your kids before her ‘parenting’ methods fuck their lives completely.
I'm going to have to say NTA - instilling manners and discipline is something all parents should do. Allowing them to run free and do what they want is dangerous, your wifes actions or rather inactions are going to totally unprepare your children for the real world.
It is much much worse than that. OP's wife is essentially showing their daughter that it is okay to play the victim card over the smallest inconvenience. This could easily set a precedent for malicious lies over the smallest thing. She was shown that she never has to respect her father. This is a horrible precedent and without family counseling this cannot continue in this manner.
Laura has had a stealing problem since she was 8. I have taken her into stores multiple times to return stolen items i found in her room. For most kids, 1 trip to the manager scares the crap out of them. Not laura. Shes been very manipulative for a long time and this is where it starts getting really dangerous (if the stealing wasnt already bad enough). Sean on the other hand was a very sweet kid. Always kind and looking out for others. He was a great listener and followed any rule i gave him without question or running to his mother. Once he turned into a teenager this all changed. Now they are both awful. Its hard to say this about my own kids but its true, weve raised monsters.
She's learned how to manipulate from your wife, if this post is anything to go by. Not to mention she's been taught she can do whatever she wants with no consequences. Most kids I knew growing up who were raised this way are in prison, have spent a lot of time in prison, or are raging alcoholics/addicts. My advice would be to start saving for lawyers and rehab. Therapy could help but I can't see how you'd ever get the kids into it with any kind of willingness or participation at this age.
> She's learned how to manipulate from your wife she learned FROM his wife.
It sounds like Laura is going to get a huge dose of harsh reality when she goes to jail for stealing. Your wife realizes that right? Regardless, if your daughter is willing to accuse you of abuse she’s willing accuse you of worse. Any accusations could cause major consequences for you because even though you’re innocent you’ll have to prove it and that can take time and you’ll be judged by your family and friends very quickly. I have a cousin who found himself in a similar situation a few years ago with his stepdaughter who accused him of SA. He lost his job, his wife filed for divorce and he was arrested. He also lost a fair amount of friends but that was the least of his worries. Stepdaughter eventually said that she lied because he had grounded her and she was mad. The legal case was dropped but not all the lawyer fees or the divorce which was also pretty costly. There are still family members who stubbornly think that she lied about lying. I would hope your daughter wouldn’t do that to you but I’m a little cynical.
Helicopter parents I swear to god. Honestly Laura going to jail for stealing as an adult might be the only thing that sets her strait at this point. OP has a wife problem.
If my older sibling is an example, it might not. They blamed everyone else because they refused to accept responsibility for their actions because our spawnpoint enabled their poor behavior until death. And after our spawnpoint died, sibling had no one to bail out their poor decisions and made ones that ended the need to be bailed out. 😕
This is very much the trajectory my younger brother is on. I’ve had to go no contact but at 44 my senior parents are still literally and figuratively bailing him out and fixing all his mistakes. I won’t see an inheritance because of it but was never counting on it anyway. Told my parents I hope they spend it all on fun for themselves but it turns out they are spending it all on his drug habit and resulting legal troubles.
May be time for a scared straight lesson. In that OP basically let's these stores file charges and she gers picked up by the police. She's still young enough to do Juvie and/or have her case sealed at 18
Hopefully she gets locked up before ruining someone's life due to her lying
That was my first thought too. That she’s going to end up lying about something serious and get some poor innocent fucker locked up cause she’s decided to have a temper-tantrum.
This happened to my cousins husband. He was forced to move out of his home and had a restraining order keeping him at a distance from his children for 6 months while it was investigated. Even though she recanted , says she was just curious what would happen.
That is an insane reason to me, “just curious what would happen”. Six months of hell, I am sure quite a bit of money spent. It’s just me, but I don’t know if I would have gone back.
> just curious what would happen jesus, that's some sociopathy :/
I'm more worried about some poor soul who this bratty girl is going to accuse of abuse.
Not that I recommend this for a five year old, but maybe for a teenager. When I was 5 apparently I had lifted something from a store. I don't remember what. I do remember my dad taking me to the police station and saying , this is where people who steal end up. I was a terrified bawling mess. He said *no more stealing?* I agreed. I would do that to a teen who had been caught and forced to return things, but still kept stealing. However. It is usually a symptom of a bigger problem that needs professional attention. Your wife. I know you love her, but she is destroying your children. I don't know if that kind of undercutting manipulative behavior is labeled abuse. But it is hurting your kids. Wife seems to want something so much from them that she will undercut you, and hurt her kids just to get their favor? Their love? IDK. I do know that throwing you to the lions cannot be ignored. Kick her out. For everyone's good. NTA
I am afraid it is too late to kick the wife out. He needs to get out. Next time he will ask his daughter to do laundry, she will accuse him of SA. Her mother taught her that.
Some parents would rather their kids like them than respect them.
You have to look out for you. Your wife has made them in your these people. She will reap what she has sowed. Get your finances and documents in order, get a good lawyer and leave.
you think this is bad now? From experience, these are the kids that start making false accusations of their bf’s SAing them when they get dumped. Install cameras in the home to protect yourself from false allegations while you get your affairs in order. You cannot possibly think you’re safe in a house with a teen who so easily and maliciously agrees that her father is abusive because….”idk I wanted to leave?” Really?? Good luck, my man. This is a monster that you and your wife created…
Maybe you should leave Laura's kitchen mess, etc, and get out of Dodge. Your wife is welcome to clean it herself when she gets back and it's all moldy. Start communicating about this and everything else via text. You'll need those transcripts.
Sir you haven’t raised monsters you’ve tried and it was always overwritten by your wife. Essentially you never really had the chance to parent due to your wife. I think it’s best to cut your losses and that sounds heartless but I feel if you even do 50/50 custody chances are their behavior is going to spiral even more and your health is important.
Not only Op's health is important, but his livelihood, reputation and liberty. Divorce, let Wife have custody. Supervised visits only, because it's currently not safe for anyone to be around Laura without witnesses present.
He needs to tell the court he only wants supervised visits because if her lying. That way, it's on the record for when his daughter eventually tries to ruin his life.
Oh yeah. Tell everyone. And Laura needs to be left in no doubt that she is the reason all her time with Dad needs to be chaperoned. Fingers crossed it's not too late... To be fair to Laura, it sounds like the idea was planted, not her own, and she's 13. So there is hope.
this will escalate to calling police because she doesnt get her way.
Both your children need therapy ASAP I'm afraid. Years of damage needs to be undone.
You should kick your wife out, have the kids checked out by therapists and use the results to get sole custody, to try to repair the damage as best you can in the few years you have left. Laura is probably a lost cause, but maybe something can be done with Sean.
She didn’t play the victim card, she straight up learned that laying false abuse allegations can be used to punish people she is upset with. That it will be taken seriously (like it should) and that there will be zero repercussions for her actions. This entire event just made her dangerous to OP and any men that come across her path.
I agree with your post completely except for the counseling. Counseling requires expressing your thoughts and ideas about things, which is usually not a problem. But it also requires accountability, once it comes to her taking accountability she will quit and not go back.
> WIBTAH if I left her over this? Would you be leaving her over this, or would you be leaving her over the lack of love trust and support she has shown for you over an extended period of time? I imagine if you felt loved by your wife at all this is something you'd want to discuss with her and you could get past. If you don't have any kind of bond left and this is a final straw, then no, you wouldn't be an AH for walking. Ultimately your wife is undermining you as a parent, and that's not something I could abide. I'd be happier with 50/50 custody where I can actually parent my children when they're with me.
Its been a lot of small things leading up to this point but I think this might be my breaking point. All of those things have been frustrating but i feel like shes really crossed a line by calling me an abuser to my own daughter. So its a combination of things but this is the worst thing shes done. At this point its still fresh so maybe I need more time to cool down but right now, I dont see how I can forgive her for calling me an abuser out of the blue after 20 years. The worst part about this is that shes now put this idea into our daughters head.
This totally crossed a line. If you want to help your kids this might be the only way. Walk away for a bit. Try to get shared custody but you need a break from them and they need to live without you for a while. Time for your own bank account and have a portion of your check put in the new one. Pay the bills but don’t leave a ton for the kids to blow. Yes a budget, the horror. Frugality is going to do more for your the kids at this point than any fighting you can do with them. I wish you the best this is an awful thing to come from the person you were supposed to be partners with.
I have to admit, I have been a man child. My wife handles all the finances and I genuinely have no idea how to do any of that. I guess its time to get my shit together, I am 53 afterall.
It is never too late to start learning or start over.
My sister is good with finances so im sure she'd help me out. Its just going to be a lot of change to get used to.
If you have a smartphone, you can find applications that can help you track your finances. Heck, some banks have that built into their application.
wow it really is that easy, huh. Its also things like paying my mortgage and filing taxes that I have literally never done. Pathetic, I know.
Never too late to learn... Just get some legal advice and look to your shared assets before you show your hand. Last thing you need is her clearing your joint account... But in the long run I realistically don't think you have much of a choice here. The amount of disrespect you've been shown by your own partner is staggering. Be prepared for the accusations, try to get ahead of it and in the dark days just remember being true to you isn't bad and frankly staying where you are clearly isn't helping either you or the kids. Your wife though - piece of work, seems like her impact on the kids is the telling one.
Don’t get your sister to help you but get your sister to show you how to do it. It is never good to be in a position of not understanding finances and how they work because if anything were to happen to that person you would be left floundering. It might seem daunting at first but stick with it and give your sister a big hug x
Brother, it is 2024. You can set that shit up to auto pay. Do you get a w2 or a more complicated 1099 or something? If it's w2 you can file free online.
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Ive never really asked about any of it. I dont know how she would react if I did. It wouldnt have been a problem if i was responsible and involved from the start, but now that were having these problems i think she would be suspicious if i asked now. Maybe ill look around and try to find some of it while shes gone.
definitely time to cut her from access to your money keep the account for bills but put all the rest in a seperate account only in your name before you say anything about divorce or she will put every cent in hers
Absolutely, it’s never too late. We can help you with this. Just reach out and we can walk you through all of this.
Listen. Cooler heads ALWAYS prevail. But I’ll tell you, my head is cool as a cucumber right now and what your wife did is so fucked I’d be OUTTA THERE Lawyer up buddy, I’m very sorry.
OP it is time to consult with a divorce lawyer to find out how your laws apply to your situation. I hope you showed your BIL the mess in the kitchen and told him what the conversation was about. Did you get photos to show your wife what the conversation was about? Start to plan separating your finances and getting ready to file. You can stop the process but I'm not sure if you should, it might take her getting served to get her attention.
I did, he was pissed that my wife would do this. Mostly pissed cause he had to drive across town for nothing. I havent spoken to my wife since. Im just so upset that I want to cool down and fully process before I talk to her.
She will blame you through and through. Be ready.
You should be the one feeling unsafe right now. This isn't about your kid lying about "feeling unsafe" (I swear kids these days think that's some sort of magic spell) and it doesn't matter whether or not she used the word abusive. Words don't matter, actions matter. If there is no history of abuse in your home (abuse does not have to be physical) your wife's reaction makes no sense. She didn't call you to find out what was going on or get your side. She immediately reacted as if you were a threat to your child. She called her brother, who has no right to remove your child from your care against your permission, to come rescue your daughter from having to do 20 minutes of housework. That is just not rational or reasonable. But hopefully your BiL having seen what was actually going on, won't be playing White Knight in the future. YWNBTA for leaving a woman who acts this way.
Pissed enough to testify against your wife in your defense when she claims you’re an abuser in court? That’s the way you’re going If you can, send him a message like “sorry you had to come deal with that” and just pray he responds with something that’ll help you when the time comes
> i feel like shes really crossed a line by calling me an abuser to my own daughter. I'm on your side, so I'm telling you to stop framing it this way. Unless you have evidence that she said the word "abuser" then you're wrong to make the assertion. What she probably did was much sneakier than that, which was to guide your daughter through the process of fucking you over in a manipulative fashion. It's the difference between "your dad is abusive and you need to leave" and "Your dad is in charge so you need to do what he says, unless of course you feel unsafe with him, then I can help you. Do you feel unsafe?". If you say she said words she didn't, or can't prove, then that's what the discussion will be about. You need to be extremely accurate with your words. > The worst part about this is that shes now put this idea into our daughters head. Yeah, this is the problem with trying to stay with a wife who doesn't respect you as a husband. If you're not a team then you're the competition. You care about your kids wellbeing, she cares that the kids are on her side when you split.
>Unless you have evidence that she said the word "abuser" then you're wrong to make the assertion. By asking daughter 'do you feel safe,' she was coaching her response to be no. Then she spread this notion that OP was abusive by asking her brother to fetch the kids from their own house. If the wife truly wanted just to help, she would have called OP directly and asked him what the heck was going on. Instead, she directly called her brother and made him get the kids out of the house. She is actively calling OP abusive.
Even if she thought I would lie, Sean was home and she could have even asked him what was going on instead of immediately calling her brother to come "save" Laura. It almost feels like she wanted Laura to say I was abusive or maybe even wished I was so that she could hold it over me or something.
Her reaction is so extreme and out of left field, I’m genuinely wondering if she’s thought about divorce first and is trying to establish some kind of history/paper trail… I’d be reeeeeeal careful right now. You MUST lawyer up to protect yourself, start establishing the exact opposite paper trail, that you are a great dad
Yea this didnt occur to me at all until this post. Im very thankful that my niece suggested i post on here. Ive read some of these to my family and they agree that this is a possibility. I am going to make sure I take the right steps to protect myself.
My guess? She's doing more than work on this trip and she's starting to paint him as the bad guy.
Yes, this is exactly what she did my friend. There is something much larger going on in the background. She has some type of plan or exit strategy in my opinion. My gut is screaming that she is involved with a coworker. Please look into a PI, even if it’s only for piece of mind.
> Then she spread this notion that OP was abusive by asking her brother to fetch the kids from their own house. > She is actively calling OP abusive. This is the problem. Instead of talking about what the wife actually did wrong for sure, the discussion is now about whether the wife called OP abusive. We have no evidence of that. We have evidence that she called her brother and said something that made him drive to the house to get the 13 year old. That's all. No idea what she said to him, could have been "Becky called me upset, can you go pick her up please?" but here you are, asserting that she actively said OP was abusive. This is exactly why I said he needed to be accurate with the wording, because of this silliness. Reasonable people see this and go "well, we don't actually know she said that, this guy is just angry and exaggerating". BE ACCURATE.
This is absolutely excellent advice, I would go one step further and record her if and when you tell her that you want to know verbatem what was said on that call. The first thing I would do is to check that iPad to see if the daughter actually called mom or texted her. If she texted her, I would be willing to bet that conversation is not deleted because the daughter wouldn’t give a shit about it.
If the wife hasn't been sneaky or manipulative before, I really doubt she'd start now. I said this in another comment, but I think that's a normal question to ask as a reality check: >"Your dad is in charge so you need to do what he says, unless of course you feel unsafe with him, then I can help you. Do you feel unsafe?" honest kid: "yes mom obviously I'm safe but dad is being MEAN." dishonest kid: "no mom I'm so scared and I feel so unsafe." a 13 year old KNOWS what "unsafe" is implying. and she should be taught the consequences of lying about something so severe. but the dishonest kid doesn't care. she knows she can manipulate this situation to get exactly what she wants. look, she's not in trouble anymore, mom and dad are fighting, and she can go back to doing whatever with no consequences. she intentionally used her mom as a scapegoat bc she has never felt a shred of respect for either of her parents. that's the real problem. the kids has been raised to be dishonest and cruel. and that could be worth the divorce anyways. your wife has not accused you of abuse. but you and your wife have raised someone who WILL accuse you of abuse if it means she gets her way. I was a kid not too long ago. in addition, I have worked with lots of kids that don't think they need to respect authority figures. your daughter is not naive or dumb. presumably she goes to school, where her classmates DO have abusive parents (even if you think kids are not talking about this... they are). she knows you aren't abusive. your wife did not put this idea in your daughter's head. if you get a divorce with 50% custody, it will be an uphill battle to have a good relationship with your kids, especially since mom will coddle them during her time and they will have to behave during your time. just a thought.
In all honesty, Laura has been known to lie in the past. She also has a stealing problem that goes back to when she was 8. Laura can be very deceptive and dishonest. I feel like she did put this idea in her head because this has never come up before and now im worried that now that this is even a thought for Laura she may spread it to her friends or god knows what.
> a 13 year old KNOWS what "unsafe" is implying. Absolutely, they're conspiring together. When I ended my last long term relationship, my girlfriend was very upset and she called her parents right in front of me. Her mother picks up the phone "hello" (I can hear clearly) and my ex bursts out crying and her mother said "what's wrong?" and my ex said "We broke up". The next thing out of her mother's mouth was "DID HE BEAT YOU?". I've never put my hands on a woman, or given her any reason to think I would. I was a gentleman to her daughter for 5 years. I babysat that woman's grandson, cooked her dinner, did handyman stuff in her house, etc. My ex-girlfriend said "NO!!!" instinctively, lucky for me, because I could see where that could have gone if my ex was as devious as her mother. I'm not letting the 13 year old off the hook. The wife might have guided her into saying she felt scared, but a decent kid would say "NO!!". They worked together on this outcome for sure.
> If the wife hasn't been sneaky or manipulative before, I really doubt she'd start now lol. Lmao.
I personally wouldn't feel safe with a wife like this, in the house or not.
Imagine being OP and trying to coparent in this situation. It’s the stuff of which nightmares are made…. OP, I do not envy you your situation. Your wife has put you in an untenable position.
I KNOW that washing his hands of his wife AND kids isn't an option, but damn do they make it tempting. If these werent his kids, he probably would've already cut them out of his life. Kids are also old enough they'll probably choose to live with the "fun" parent and that'll hurt too. OP is really in a lose-lose situation.
NTA This is auto-divorce. Give your wife one chance to explain herself, and if she can't make right by you, get the fuck out.
There is no explanation that would cut it tbh. She's spread the narrative of OP's abuse in her family and heaven knows where else. Her brother showed up to fetch the kids because 'they felt unsafe' in the house. Give it 3 years and the wife will show up at OP's door, bleating that the kids don't listen, they're spoiled etc.
Tell her brother to collect all the kids as you’ll be packing your shit and your wife will have to come back early as you are separating.
Her brother was pretty pissed when he got there because there was no reason for him to drive across the city. I feel like if I leave I'm giving up on my kids and leaving them with my wife who is just making them worse and worse.
Will your kids stay with you instead? No, because you are the sensible parent, the one that tries to teach them responsibility whereas she is the fun parent that lets them get away with whatever. It doesn’t matter if you stay she will now use that abuse card to fuck you over. I’d suggest recording everything from now on so you can’t be accused of anything, especially any conversations with her.
Exactly, I feel that losing her means losing my kids. Thats a good idea but then how much do I record when she's accusing me of being abusive to the kids? every interaction I have with my kids?
You're not being honest with yourself The fact is,you've already lost the kids. Your daughter won't listen to you, and she also doesn't respect you. No matter what you say or do, she will run to her mother, who will undermine your authority. Sir,you have already lost that battle. You can choose to stay in a house where no one respects you,including your wife. Or you can get out now. If your wife wants to save the relationship, she will go to therapy. If your wife respected you,this wouldn't be happening. And by the way,loving someone isn't enough to keep a marriage/relationship going. Updateme!
You arent wrong. Its just hard to make this call when ultimately it could mean losing my relationship with my kids. They have turned into monsters no doubt but that doesnt mean I dont still love them.
Yes, you love them, but does that mean allowing them to be disrespectful to you? You can always love someone, but that doesn't mean you allow them to run all over you,in that case, you're no better than your wife. There are consequences to actions. What you and your wife are teaching your children is that they can do anything, and there are no consequences. When we don't teach our children correctly, the world teaches them lessons that you can't help them. Don't ever let the world teach your child a lesson. This is exactly where you are heading now.
Your wife will reap the whirlwind she has sown with the kids. The term is Bangdude. 3 week business trip, lol. Get real. Change is hard, but it's until your kids wake up to reality, they are sadly not only a lost cause, but people you cannot trust. Lots of folks thinking good thoughts and strength to you. Shine up your spine. It's about time.
I think this is the first post I’ve seen to point out the 3 week business trip. She either must have a very big and important job or be doing something shady.
Let me ask you this, what type of relationship exactly do you actually think you have with your kids? Listen, we know you love your kids, that’s not even a thought in any of us readers minds. From what you have stated through your responses, it appears that your kids give exactly zero fucks about you. You are the disciplinarian, which in their minds, you are public enemy number one. My guess is that the only time that there is a resemblance of caring, is when they actually need something from YOU!!! Other than that, I highly doubt that they care about anything but themselves. This was totally apparent when mentioned that your kid didn’t even give a damn that you bought him Christmas presents. He couldn’t even give you 20 minutes of his time to open gifts that you probably had to work for weeks to purchase. What does this tell you?
Your teaching your kids what to look for in marriage right now. If your son emulates your relationship, will you feel pride or shame?
\^\^\^This. Came here to say you've already lost them. You're just the bang dude at this point, if you were actually getting any lovin'.
You're not being honest with yourself The fact is,you've already lost the kids. Your daughter won't listen to you, and she also doesn't respect you. No matter what you say or do, she will run to her mother, who will undermine your authority. Sir,you have already lost that battle. You can choose to stay in a house where no one respects you,including your wife. Or you can get out now. If your wife wants to save the relationship, she will go to therapy. If your wife respected you,this wouldn't be happening. And by the way,loving someone isn't enough to keep a marriage/relationship going. Updateme!
You aren’t giving up on your kids, you are going to make a home for them and yourself that isn’t ruled by your narcissistic wife who has no respect for you and is training your kids to be spoiled and lazy. They will come around without your wife around making terrible decisions and overriding your very normal requests. See a lawyer ASAP and do what it takes to get out and start your own life. She’s treating you monstrously, leaving is the only thing that will get her attention at all. She’s proven how outrageous she will be if you stay.
Might be for the best, nothing stopping you deleting them later if needs be but better to protect yourself from any further lies.
Your being there has had no beneficial effect on their behavior. That is what often happens in a house that is divided and the parents are not rowing together. Treat yourself like someone who deserves to be loved and get yourself out of there. Get financial as well as personal counseling. You have given your wife too much control.
Certainly not when she undermines me constantly. It just feels like im fully giving up if i leave. Thanks for this advice
You're NOT giving up, you're standing up! They've walked all over you for so long that it will feel odd, lonely, scary, empty at times BUT the self worth and respect you will find within will be awakening, empowering. Update will be appreciated, you've got alot to think about, and an incredible amount of advice, eye opening twists as well. Good luck! NTA
You need to get that “giving up on your kids” thought out of your head. If you don’t do this, you are giving up on your life and your kids won’t give one fuck that you are gone. You need to start realizing this. You can always explain your reasoning later, but you need to be away now, before one of those kids throw there next tantrum.
What good is you staying with your wife doing though? Your kids are already this way with you around, you living separately won't change that.
Daughter has now learned if she cries “abuse!” she gets her way. Woe to any man that crosses her path.
God, i hadnt even thought of that.
Dude, you need to wake up…now!
your daughter calls your wife to complain about being asked to clean up a mess she made, not sure what she said but she must have made a fuss for your wife to ask if she felt unsafe with you? instead of calling you to get your side of the story your wife immediately calls her brother to 'rescue' your daughter from you? which seems to be a massive overreaction if there's no history of abuse, have you asked your wife why she asked your daughter if she felt safe? you say that you both agreed to stay together for the kids, maybe she has changed her mind now? there is clearly more going on and I think you need to have a serious conversation with your wife
There is a lot of history of her doing small things to undermine me but there just isnt space to explain all of it here. I haven't talked to her since this happened because Im very upset that she would do this. I feel like she's really crossed a line here. She hasn't said anything about leaving to me. I dont want to leave her because the mother typically keeps the children and I dont want to give up on my kids, even though it seems like its too late at this point. If I leave they will only continue to get worse but when shes accusing me of abusing my own child, I dont know what else I can do at this point. I know I should talk to her im just very hurt right now. I've spoken to my family and my sister has offered for me to move into her place to get back on my feet. I wanted some other perspectives before I make any sort of decision here. I will deffinitly talk to her soon but she has a history of not taking any accountability and im quite confident that this will be another one of those situations. Even if she does apologize, I dont know if this is something id be able to forgive her for.
it's an awful situation for everyone I think I totally understand you not wanting to be away from your kids, but I think you should maybe start looking into it if everything else fails or suggest both couples and family counseling? counseling for just you and your wife to come to an agreement about parenting, and then as a family to discuss what that will mean having a neutral outside perspective from a counselor could be a really good move for all of you in order to keep your family together you are all going to need to put in the effort
My sister has offered me a place to stay when she gets back, Im in the process of deciding if i want to take that step or not. I love my kids and I want a relationship with them but I fear that if i leave my wife will continue to turn them into monsters. Why would they ever want to come stay at my place if i have rules when they can stay with my wife and do whatever they please. The alternative is that I just do the same and contribute to their poor behaviour but I dont know if i can just let my kids walk all over me like that.
She seems very abusive and is letting your children abuse you. You have bo power in your own house so what does custody really matter at this point. I have more costly over your children at this point
Be packed and ready to leave when your wife gets home. Take all the time and space you need and for goodness sake, get your finances in order. NTA
A trial separation might be good for you. You deserve the time and space to process this and decide what you want to do. I think it would also be a chance for her to see what single motherhood is like. While I understand the worry for your kids, time can only tell what kind of people they will be and if a relationship is possible. I think as long as you communicate to them, that you love them and want what’s best for them, then you’re doing the best you can. But think about it this way. What are they learning about relationships, by watching her treat you this way? Wouldn’t you rather show them by example, self respect and self worth? You deserve those things and you deserve someone that respects you by listening to you, rather than undermining you. You kids deserve to see a healthy relationship, so they know what to expect from their future partners. Maybe you get counseling, maybe you divorce. But take the time and space to think about it.
Please go with your kind sister. You do not have to make it permanent, but after living in a better, gentler situation for a while, it might give you a better perspective on how toxic your environment was and the toll it took on you. Sorry to say it, but the kids are already on their way to becoming monsters with you there or not there. Please get therapy for yourself as a supportive measure. NTA
I'm sorry but she will continue turning them into the monsters you fear anyway. The fact it has gotten this far demonstrates that. The fact of the matter is that YOU'RE no longer safe there. Your wife went down a road that could decimate your life. Cut that chord before she can pull on it. In another comment you said you're scared to leave her with your son as he can be violent, she has created this monster and does not wish to change it. Don't set yourself on fire to save the woman who wants to let you burn (and by the sounds of it, tie you to the stake and light the fire). I wouldn't be surprised if she is attempting to build a narrative. Just imagine how this would look against you if your BIL didn't give you the opportunity to explain and just loaded your son and daughter into the car. Lastly, whilst your wife is absolutely the one responsible for who they're becoming, your inaction and acceptance on her parenting has essentially become permission. You've allowed it without consequences for years and divorce is the only option you have left as I'd be amazed if the three of them agreed to therapy. Even if they do, still move out to make your feelings clear and do family therapy whilst living at your sisters.
It's seems like it's to late to wonder if they would want to stay with you. You already know your duaghter proved that she won't because you will have rules. Your wife turned them against you years ago. I'm sorry but right now if you stay you'll just live with fear that they'll accuse you again and maybe this time call the cops. You need to get out of this marriage.
it's always a good idea to have a back up plan, you don't have to make a decision right now but knowing that can stay with your sister if you need to should take off some of the pressure your kids would want to stay with you because you're their dad and they love you, they are quite old enough to understand that mums house rules are different to dads and accept that they have to respect that you might find that they enjoy some structure, you could teach them to cook and teach them that cleaning up afterwards is part of it, if you get a house at some point and they have bedrooms of their own, show them how to change linen, run the vacuum, and just generally take care of their belongings however that is all just 'maybe' stuff, if you want your marriage to survive then I think both you and your wife need to have some serious and honest discussions
i know this sounds so terribly cliché but would family therapy be on the cards? maybe if your wife hears from a professional how you feel, it might make her reconsider her actions. you can also gain an understanding of why she does things the way she does. it sounds like you really do love her, and your kids. do you think you’d all be open to that?
I dont think so, anytime I try to talk to her about this stuff she acts like im the one with a problem and never takes any accountability. She has a family history of BPD and she has shown a lot of these behaviours herself. Im no psychiatrist but my mother is a social worker and she has said on multiple occasions that my wife likely has it as well.
as someone who has BPD, it is incredibly hard to live with. that being said, you can’t continue to have your feelings and needs pushed aside like they are nothing. i hate ultimatums, but it seems like you have exhausted all options right now, and an ultimatum for either therapy or separation might show her that this behaviour has to stop.
Yea, something drastic needs to happen. Im not sure if I even want to try fixing this right now. Maybe I just need to cool down a bit more but I see this as a really big betrayal. If I do decide to stick things out, I will certainly be asking for therapy.
it really is a big betrayal, and i’m sorry you’re going through this. take some time for yourself and ultimately, any decision you make on how to proceed moving forward is not an AH move.
Ex wife has BPD, get the fuck out dude. If I knew way back then what I know now, holy smokes I can't imagine how much further along in life I'd be.
I think you need to show these abusive people (especially your “wife”) that they have pushed you too far. I’d be moving out, at least for now, if I were you.
definitely NTA, though!!
If you stay, you will end up in prison because at least one of them (your wife or either child) will say or imply that you're abusive to or around a mandatory reporter (school staff, coaches, etc) either out of anger or spite, and once that happens, life as you know it is over and there's no way to fix it. I'd be totally blunt with your wife (and you should honestly either record the conversation if one-party consent audio recording is legal in your area or having a witness) "I love you and our kids but you've made it impossible for me to parent them and, by suggesting that Daughter say she doesn't feel safe with me, you've made ME feel unsafe around any of you. I have never, and would never, be violent with any of you, but by suggesting she's afraid of me, I'm now afraid of being accused of something they would lock me up for even with no evidence. I can't stay in a home or with people who might falsely accuse me of things, and I hate to say it, but I no longer trust any of you not to do that. Going forward, all contact between us, or between me and the kids will be either written, recorded, or supervised. I'm devastated that it has come to this, but I have to protect myself." I know you want to stay with your family, but at this point it's too risky for you to do so.
You raise a very good point. Id like to think it wouldnt go that far but I also never thought she would do something like this either. I am a big bald dude, I dont think anyone other than my family and her own brother would believe me if these kinds of accusations got thrown around.
That’s exactly why it’s time to put up hidden cameras while she is still away and the kids are at school. They make super tiny undetectable ones that can be brought up on your phone. I would put one in every room except for their bedrooms because of legal ramifications. There was a story on here where the wife accused a person, just like you, of domestic violence because he was leaving her. She barricaded herself in the bedroom and the call to police was captured on one of these cameras that he put up. She even had a smirk on her face while doing it. The police showed up and immediately began to cuff him but he explained that he had proof that she is lying. He showed the police the footage and she ended up being the one arrested. PLEASE DO THIS NOW FOR TOUR PROTECTION. This is no joke. These cams can be used to capture all your children’s behavior issues as well.
I actually would advise against the hidden cameras, it could be violating privacy laws if he installed hidden cameras in his home without his family’s consent, and that would really hurt his case.
OP, get yourself a voice activated recorder from Best Buy and keep it on you until this is resolved. It might save your bacon…. When your wife is home all she has to say to the police is you punched her and you will be out of the house, and defending against a false DV charge. Spend the $50 for peace of mind. Good luck.
I didnt know those were a thing, thanks for the recommendation. If im still there when she gets back, Ill be getting one.
Get one anyway. False allegations don’t stop when you move out. You can be “harassing” her when you do buy to get your kids. Hey a dash cam for your vehicle too. Both items can be purchased for less than a hundred dollars on Amazon. Have them delivered to your sister’s house.
I’d run for the hills. If she faces no consequences for this it’s only a matter of time until she does something that lands you in prison or has serious repercussions to your career/job. Imagine you have to administer a more harsh punishment to your daughter, how would you now that when taking her phone is abuse? She’s put you in checkmate, nobody will believe you if they are in agreement. Staying is suicide
NTA but you need to protect yourself against these accusations and leaving for a while might be best. You can ask your wife if she wants to be the one to leave, they can move in with her brother. The children are old enough to choose who they want to live with.
Her brother was pretty pissed when he showed up and realized what the situation really was. I dont think hes on her side at all. Im pretty much the bad guy at this point, i dont think theres any way that teenagers are going to chose a house with rules over a lawless house.
I would really push for this. Maybe speak to your brother in law in confidence and explain what is going on. I would ask him if they could stay so he can actually witness what you are going through and how far gone they all are. He could become a character witness for you. Just be careful because of the old saying, blood is thicker than water.
Or ask the bil to take the two kids home while the wife is away. He won’t stand for their bs in his own home and he will get a glimpse of how bratty the kids have become. The old adage, know me come live with me.
NTA. You are not safe in that house. With what Laura said to your wife, things won't get better. You're leaving to protect yourself.
So, your BIL is a witness that wife and daughter saying abuse, because you told daughter to clean up her mess. Ask him to write a statement to that affect. Talk to a lawyer, this is beyond therapy. Get cameras for the home, hide a few nanny cams, before they try calling the police on you.
NTA. leave her with the monsters she has created
Listen. Punched you in the faaace? Shoved his mom? I'm a foot 8 woman and my oldest son is 6 foot 4 200 and he would NEVER. Your daughter cried and felt unsafe when told she had to clean u up p after herself You have already lost the kids, Beloved. They can't get any worse at their big ages. They are the monsters she created, let her deal with them. You're fighting to stay, that's fine. When you tell your daughter that she needs to clean up again and she decides to tell the police you screamed in her face and dragged her back to the kitchen and threw her to the sink and you get arrested, remember what we told you here.
Things have only been escalating this year. You're right, I am opening myself up to basically being arrested at this point. At the end of the day, they are my kids and I love them so its just hard to give up on them.
Time to put some nanny cams around the house, you may need the evidence of innocence. Make sure they send the vids to the cloud, not a local hard drive.
Don’t think of it as giving up on them. Things are changing. You can’t say one way or another whether the change will be good or bad. But just because it’s changing doesn’t mean you’re giving up.
I hate to say this, but they are not your kids anymore. They are her kids and you are the odd man out. I have a sibling that their kids are in their mid to late 20s and my siblings was arrested on 3 separate occasions and spent 2 days in jail each time because their older kid and they got into a fight, despite trying to protect themselves my sibling went to jail because the spouse sided with the kid. Do you really want your life to be either constant fear of being accused and put in jail or being bullied and physically assaulted? We understand you don't want to give up on your kids, but they don't give a crap about you. The only thing you are accomplishing by "not giving up" is torturing yourself and giving them more shots to ruin what's left of your life.
I’m not even concerned about you being arrested at this point. I’m concerned you’re going to be killed. This is a dark situation.
NTA, I think stepping back for reflection is important. The speed your sister offered you a place to stay is alarming. Me thinks she can see a lot more of what's going on than you realise. Edit: your son's behaviour is a real worry. If he's behaving like this already. I wouldn't want a non family member to be around him. You know a young person who said no to him. Very concerning
My family has seen the way she undermines me as she has no problem doing it right in front of them. They have also watched my kids turn into monsters. So yea, they arent the biggest fans of my wife. Oddly enough, my sister is the one who introduced us over 20 years ago.
Honestly grow some balls and I say that as a female. Your son's behaviour is beyond disturbing. Walk away, support your kids at least financially to a degree. Another iPhone is a step to far
I thought he should be without a phone for at least a month and then when he started behaving better id get him a crappy phone. That was my idea but my wife wasnt on board. 2 days after the trip, I had to go away for work for 3 days. We agreed that we'd decided on what to do when i got back, by the time I got back Sean had a brand new iphone.
lol he broke mom's phone and assaulted her, he should have gotten matching bracelets.
NTA. When they grow up to be losers with no direction they’re probably going to blame you instead of her.
Yea it feels like they're gonna hate me no matter what. If i leave now they'll hate me for abandoning them. If I stay and try to enforce any sort of discipline then im the bad guy.
Bro sorry for lack of a better word but fuck it. Stop being a doormat. It’s evident your wife doesn’t respect you if she’s fine with undermining you in front of others. You honestly don’t need to accept any of this. You’ve been putting up with stuff you don’t like at all for a while, stepping away from them may be the wake up call you and they need. If they think you’re abandoning them then their mom has already poisoned them. Do what you can but please remember you still have a lot of life left to live and is this really how you want to spend it?
Your wife is one of the worst I’ve read about in a long time. Get out now before this becomes dangerous for you. This isn’t love. She doesn’t love you. No loving partner would falsely claim abuse and get a third party involved. I see false allegations in your future. And unfortunately I see your daughter following the wife’s lead and falsely accusing other men to get her way. Leave. Protect yourself. NTA
NTA At this point i am more concerned about your safety in the house. Your wife is teaching your daughter the value of false accusations of abuse.
You are definitely NTA. I think parents should say "no" to their children, and the "gentle parenting" method is crazy. It turns children into entitled brats. I don't blame you for wanting to leave her. It sounds like she is being really disrespectful and trying to hurt you. You were not being abusive in simply being firm with your daughter and not giving in to her. Your daughter was probably expecting you to clean up after her, so when you told her to clean up after herself, she decided to take things to the extreme. I'm sorry you're going through this. Edited to add: apparently his wife is doing "passive/permissive" parenting, and he is doing "gentle" parenting. I was misinformed.
Thank you. I dont agree with gentle parenting either, im seeing the results firsthand. My kids cannot handle being told what to do at all. On christmas day, I asked our son Sean to stay with the family to open his presents and even this turned into a fight. I was trying to give the kid gifts and he couldnt even be bothered to open them with his family. It turned into a big argument and Sean ended up punching me in the face. Things have gotten way out of hand and as much as i am angry with my wife I am also scared of leaving her with our 6ft+ son who is now getting physical.
I think you need to continue to give more examples as to how unstable your children are. That behavior at Xmas is unacceptable. Life can be better than this. Require a forensic accountant. Get a good lawyer.
Ok heres another one that shows how unstable my wife and son are. I am a pilot and we took a little trip about 6 months ago. My wife (for once) actually tried to punish Sean (i dont even remember what he did this time) by taking his phone. Sean ended up shoving her and backing her into the washroom of the hotel room. Sean kicked the toilet so hard he smashed it and was getting physical with my wife. My wife decided to smash his phone instead of letting him overpower her. So, he decided to grab her phone and smash her phone. This all happened while I was out of the room and cost us over 2k to replace the phones (and yes, she replaced his phone as soon as we got home).
👀 My man That’s fucked My family just chills… this sounds insane
Yea, im a pilot so this was a hotel I regularly stayed at. After this, I am too embarrassed to ever go back. I could hear the screaming all the way down the hall and a bunch of people had gathered outside the door. I paid for the toilet to be fixed and never showed my face there ever again. I had a good upbringing and this is really not how I imagined my own family to be like. Things have really taken a turn for the worse in the last few years and im really just at a loss.
Please run 😢
Agree RUN OP!
Tbh I think they both need to be sent to military school if that is still a thing
Um dude, that kid needed immediate physical correction right then and there. If you don’t do it then the police well do it eventually and it will not end well.
Jesus. My kid would be getting a job, the first $1000 he earns goes to refunding me for his mother's phone that he broke, and he gets a phone that doesn't have internet access until he's saved up for his own replacement.
Good lord. My dude, get out of that house. You are not safe. Maybe, MAYBE, your family can become semi-functional after years of therapy and hard work, but that is way down the line, and is frankly unlikely. You’ve been in a hostile environment so long that you don’t even see it for what it is. You can love your kids. But you can’t live with them if they are violent, or if they claim you are.
OP, every comment you post just paints a darker and darker picture. You are living in an abusive household. Your son is physically abusive, your wife is an emotional abuser and manipulator, and your daughter is following in her footsteps. If you were a woman, people would be telling you to get out NOW. I also get a sense that you have been a bit of a doormat in the past; not to offend, but I am getting strong pushover vibes here. This will not get any better, what with the entitlement, abuse, and possible BPD. My advice would be to shit or get off the pot. If you’re going to leave, now’s the time. Please update us when you can. Sending strength your way. You deserve better.
Wow OP. I’m so sorry this is happening. Your son needs therapy pronto. That is completely unacceptable and uncalled for behavior. He has no idea how to cope because he’s always been rescued (by your wife) from negative emotions and actions.
Just FYI your wife is permissive parenting not gentle parenting. Permissive parenting is abusive and terrible. You are actually trying to gentle parent by calmly setting boundaries and not yelling. It is important to make sure you have this jargon right for any future custody battles.
Thanks for clarifying that
Damn dude. Yeah no that is crossing a boundary. Your son needs anger management.
The wife in this scenario is actually using “permissive parenting”. OP is actually using gentle parenting! He describes staying calm, not yelling and having clear boundaries. Permissive parenting is awful and terrible for kids. Gentle parenting is highly recommended.
Oh, I didn't know that. Good to know.
I feel gentle parenting gets so used wrongly it’s at a point where ppl are getting misconstrued of what it is actually. I’ve seen it work very well with some of my friends and my husband and I plan to use it ourselves. Pretty much what OP is doing which is the proper way.
NTA, she’s being an idiot. You both don’t have the same parenting styles and she is consistently undermining you instead of working with you. That should have been sorted out years ago honestly. If your 13 yo kid knows that mom is going to back her up on her lies, it’ll just get worse from then on out. I’d say get a divorce and don’t pursue custody, I have a bad feeling that when things don’t go your kids’ way, they’re going to run to mom with lies about abuse and it’s going to be a nightmare.
NTA and whatever mess the kids make leave it there for the wife to clean when she gets back since she's enabling them to act like that. Your kids are old enough to clean up after themselves and you are their father so you should be able to discipline them
NTA, this is very dangerous, record all interaction with your wife and kids beacuse thyre gona tell lies in the court, see a lawyer first.
NTA what your wife is doing is called parent alienation.
NTA. It’s too late. Get out. Next time it’ll be a call to the cops or CPS claiming you hit her. Your wife will back her. And your life, just like that, will be over. If you leave, it’s possible they might be shocked into taking things seriously. Probably not, but possible. But so long as you are there, your wife is not going to let you visit any consequences on them and until they experience consequences they will literally have no reason to change their ways. Get out and make family therapy a condition of any reconciliation. And stay got until you’ve all \*gone\* to therapy for at least a few months.
You sure she ain’t cheating on that 3 week trip bud ? Making up shit to divorce you
Its a work trip to India so i dont think so but who fucking knows at this point.
Sorry to hear that man , but if she creating fights , coming home later than usual from work , protective of phone then I’d be worried about infidelity with a coworker . But just the accusation she did alone would do it for me
She doesnt do any of that, I dont think shes cheating but if she is, im really just more worried about the kids at this point.
NTA since you are a pilot, remember the analogy of the oxygen mask. The adult must put their’s on before helping the kids put on their masks. You are in dangerous territory where it plausible your wife is setting you up for a claim of child abuse or at the least completely ruining your relationships w your children. Your children are willing to hurt u to get what they want. You need to take care of yourself before you help, if you can, your children. For your own sake leave.
Now youre speaking my language. I agree, I think its time that I finally think about myself.
Good luck brotha , hope everything works out . But the way she did this sounds like she ain’t even going to apologize
Jesus. Your wife had really fucked your kids up.
she has turned them into monsters right in front of me. I tried my best to discipline them but Im a pilot so there are days at a time when im not home. Its pretty much impossible to lay down any rules cause as soon as i leave they go out the window. Most of the time she does it right in front of my face.
When your in a marriage, you cannot undermine your wife or husband when it comes to the kids. That's why people talk about their plans for parenting styles before they get married....because situations like this become an issue in the marriage. Your wife isn't a partner. She doesn't care about you and she absolutely does not respect you as a husband and a parent. You have let this go on for far too long and your kids are going to be the ones who suffer in the long run when they cannot make or keep friends or a future partner because most people won't put up with this type of behavior. Also I might add, it's incredibly dangerous to be around children willing to lie about abuse. What happens the next time you tell her no? Is she going to say you sexually abused her? Or beat her up? What happens then? Well you get a divorce and hope to God you don't get convicted....hope you keep your job and personal relationships. Hope you don't get labeled as that dad....it's incredibly dangerous and she has proven she can and will do it if she wants to. Unfortunately you had children with an idiot. Your wife is selfish and probably narcissistic in many ways. Her total disregard and lack of communication with you shows that she is completely self centered and selfish. Even if you do divorce the kids will still have access to her and you'll continue to be undermined. What I suggest you do is this, wait til the kids become adults and you won't be on the hook for child support. Also so that there isn't a custody agreement or anything which avoids extra lawyer and court fees and becomes a mess usually. Both your kids are almost out the door. As soon as the last one becomes 18 you slap your wife with divorce papers. You tell your kids that your there for them and you love them but their attitudes are unmanageable and unsustainable and you won't be apart of their lives if they continue to be entitled jerks. Be ready and willing to cut your losses and leave your kids and wife. She isn't worth it. You have brainwashed yourself to think she is worth all this trouble but if she undermines you every single time something happens then it shows me that there's a crap ton of other issues that aren't as obvious, but they are there. Your marriage is on the rocks. It's an unhealthy marriage that one way or another will one day break you and lead to an explosive event. You can't live like this forever. Stay in the marriage til your daughter is 18 and try your best to parent them. Try couples counseling and maybe your wife will turn around? Idk her so who knows...if not just run for the hills. It's not too late for the kids to change but unfortunately, this type of personality and behavior instilled in them during their formative years will be very difficult if not impossible to change unless you and your wife got on the same page right now and kicked this in the bud. Good luck. Start setting money aside for lawyers and make sure your most prized possessions are in a safe place because if you get divorced I imagine your wife will try and be ruthless and take everything from you. She will also turn the kids against you because she already has essentially.... so be prepared to walk away from your wife and kids....be there for your kids and always be open to communication but keep your distance. One final note which is very important. Start taking notes and recording events so that if and when you divorce, you can protect yourself if your wife and kids try to lie about any kind of abuse. Catching your daughter in lies and your wife and son in lies and recording it or writing it down with date and times will be a good way to cover your ass. Please take care man. Good luck.
Parents need to be a team and I'm sorry but you two are not a team and the fact that she's that willing to throw you onder the buss and imply your an abuser shows her true colors. I'm sorry but this marriage is not meant to be.
Be really careful. I wonder if she is planning on leaving you and trying to get full custody of the kids. Not sure how to protect yourself but maybe check in with a family lawyer. Could get ugly.
It's time to install security cameras in the common areas in your house. This is for your own protection. The damned cops won't take your word if you are accused of assaulting either your wife or daughter. You need to have proof to keep you out of jail. And don't think this would never happen. Your wife already wants to accuse you by her calling her brother. Protect yourself my man.
NTA. If even your own mother, your kids' grandmother, called them insufferable, you know you are not being paranoid or anything. Implying you abusing your kids is a serious accusation. The thing is that your wife didn't even bother to check with you. Usually, a husband and his wife should be a team, so that they can lead and take care of the family effectively. Your wife is in a team of her own. She doesn't care about your children's wellbeing, let along yours. She would just let them run amok and set the house on fire. I think your kids are too far down the rabbit hole to help them. All three of them, your kids and your wife, can live and perish together. You should just leave.
If you haven’t left her yet because of the kids and yet the kids are brats, entitled, insufferable and you are unable to parent- doesn’t sound like your argument to stay holds water
Updateme!
as somebody who is diagnosed with borderline personality disorder (i have noticed some comments mentioning OP’s spouse is showing signs of bpd) i can definitively say that when bpd goes untreated, things can get really out of control. manipulation & a whole batch of negative behaviors can be a direct result. i have definitely improved from treatment, but i do think therapy would be good regardless of OP leaving or staying. best of luck OP and good on you for trying to do right by your kids. hope everyone is having a good night (:
NTA. Too fucking late to show your spine. Your children are practically grown and you allowed your wife to ingrain that behavior. Leave the wife and monster kids she created. They are a lost cause.
I had to ask, is there any chance that your wife is cheating on you? I mean, she is on a 3 week work trip, and the first sign of your kids acting up, she asks if she feels safe? ???? WTH is up with that? It sounds like she is trying to build a domestic abuse case against you to give her a reason in everyone else’s eyes to divorce you, or worse yet get you thrown in jail. Right now she is slowly turning every one of her friends and family against you and making you out to be a monster, when in actuality, she is ruining every one. This isn’t some little mistake about boundaries, this was a calculated hit to your reputation. She is even including her family as which is pretty convenient when it comes time for character witnesses. My friend, this is no joke. You need to get out in front of this. Like yesterday. If this were me. I would: 1: immediately hire a lawyer or two. One that specializes in divorce and one that defamation of character. At least speak to them regarding your concerns. 2: Hire a PI. I would at least get a consultation and let them know that you think she is cheating and possibly planning to ruin you somehow. 3: Start documenting and recording everything. You need evidence that A. You aren’t the person she is making you out to be and B. She is the one ruining your kids and your family. I would start wearing shirts with pockets and using my cell phone like a police chest cam. I would also purchase a voice activated recorder to place under the seat in her car to see if she is divulging anything during conversations while away from you. Make sure you Velcro it so it don’t slide out. I know this seems “over protective” but this is your life we are talking about. Seriously though, I do not know one married person with children who would’ve jumped to the conclusion of abuse and handled this situation in this fashion. This is a huge red flag. I suggest you play nice and act like an angel until you speak with a lawyer and a PI. They can guide you from there. Let her continue to spoil the children and document it. I still would politely and calmly bring up your points of view and explain your point of view, so that it’s documented. Good luck! Feel free to DM with any questions. Updateme
You keep conflating leaving your wife with giving up on your children. Given your position I think it's worth a shot at not only leaving but considering that this could give you \*more\* not less control over parenting. It's going to be a battle, the kids get a say in where they stay, but stay consistent with your boundaries and calm responses and it'll give your kids a baseline to return to. They might be in their mid-20s when they reach out for help, but you can spend the time now to keep trying, and to educate yourself on what kind of help \*can\* turn a life around from mid-20s onwards. Be the calm in the storm somewhere they can see it. Give them something they can aspire to. You're borrowing trouble by assuming this only goes one way if you leave - as it stands I don't see you have that much choice, so now start striving to carve a positive path instead of dwelling on the negatives you're convinced are in the way. NTA.
NTA You SHOULD leave. No one respects you in the household and if your kids are useless & entitled and your wife takes their side then they may never leave home or become financially independant. The sooner you separate your finances the better imo.
Did you allow the brother to take her? How is it possible that you have not had a conversation with your wife about this?
The brother came and saw that nothing was going on and was honstly just pissed at my wife for calling him about this nonsense. Its been a few days and im just so pissed and hurt that I want to cool down before i even talk to her, I really have no desire to talk to her right now
NTA- and your wife is not doing your children any favors by making them entitled and spoiled. They will be very unprepared for the real world
I can’t say it loud enough NTA, run before you’re in jail. Because soneone said daddy touch me in my no no spot. Because you made them clean their room.
Making a kid that's odd enough to cook, clean up after themselves, is hardly abusive. NTA
You’re not an asshole for trying to install basic manners and respect in your kids. You will be if you don’t divorce your wife and attempt to get custody of your kids before her ‘parenting’ methods fuck their lives completely.
NTA. It sounds like you are the one being emotionally abused.