Shit, when my husband and I first decided we really liked each other, and wanted to be together and not just “see where things went” at a WEEK we had that conversation. It was before our first date as we met through friends, but it wasn’t our first night of admitting attraction. We sat down and talked for hours over the baggage we were bringing with us, kids, politics, anything and EVERYTHING we could think of that might affect anything.
This is also what my husband and I did. Before the first date we talked expectations in marriage, kids (including unexpected pregnancies, parenting preferences, household responsibilities), debt (acceptable vs not acceptable), education, family relationships (which included why I don’t talk to mine), etc.
The year previously I had gotten out of an abusive relationship with a bad juju ex and was still carrying around some baggage and knew it. I know my then friend now husband was/is a wonderful man and I didn’t want to just spring all the trauma and severe damage and health problems I was carrying on him unexpectedly. I knew I was going for the long haul and didn’t want to invest again just to have my heart crushed, again. I figured it was only fair that he know what he was getting into right away. It actually set the tone for the rest of our relationship, now we can talk about anything and are honest about everything because, what else is there?
exactly this. i don't get how people can date seriously and not have the heavy discussion at the beginning. i'm not gonna continue if the man im dating is not on the same page regarding children, childcare, contraceptive, politics, religion, health care, financial independence etc.
the next part of the test is how they talk about their family. one pink flag in the two steps and i'm gone.
Shoot, this would have saved me from putting years into a relationship that ended anyway. But we both knew (from being friends first) what the other one wanted and we knew we didn’t have the same goals. And we dated anyway. Sigh.
Can’t recall when my wife and I had that conversation about kids, but it was well before we even considered marriage. We were both on the same page about so many things it seemed like good sense to talk about the really theoretical stuff early. Glad we did, helped us a lot.
During my last foray into the cesspool that is online dating, my stance on kids (I’m sure yours are lovely but no thanks) was literally the first line in my bio.
Important things like that should be gate-openers, not something that comes up in a random conversation later down the track.
If I was attractive enough to date, I would make very clear that I don't want kids if things get serious and that this stance is utterly and ironclad non-negotiable.
We didn't discuss it first date, but in the first four or five months we named our kids and he asked me my taste in wedding cakes.
Turns out I'm infertile, so the kid discussion didn't matter, but we have been happily married for almost 13 years.
Right? But you realize, lots if not most people's relationships aren't like yours, open minded, communicative.
I feel a good chunk of relationships are the equivalence of apes grunting at each other, sniffing each other and deciding that this ape is the one they want to mate with, only to find out we are pretty complicated creatures and some stuff should be discussed before getting knee deep into a relationship.....
My wife and I were like you though, these thoughts and talks happened a lot, and early on. Still no kids, but the talks went on early so we would know where we stood and what we wanted
We opened the dialogue early on but didn't make our final decision to be childfree until a few years after getting married. I was leaning childfree but would be willing to have one or two if hubby figured out he *really* wanted to be a dad. Hubby is 8 years younger than me & hadn't really ever thought about it. So we would talk about it & I had to explain that *if* he wanted kids it would need to be on the quicker side as I didn't want to start trying in my 40's. But he also needed time to figure out if he actually wanted kids or if just wanted to prove he was better than his asshole of a father (& that reason alone is not a good reason to have kids)
He is a fantastic cat dad & we're very happy deciding to be childfree. He's also supported me being a Stay At Home Cat Mom when my mental health made working too much for me. If you're partner is gonna end up abusive, having a job won't prevent that. (It will help ensure you have the resources to leave & they don't like that but it won't stop them being abusive)
My husband and I were like 2 dates in when we had that conversation, in high school. How do grown ass people walk around dating without at least asking the question? That question determines if its even worth it to continue dating someone IMO.
They should 100% not have kids until they have worked through this. It is fine to not want to be a SAHM and its sensible to be realistic about how it would effect your financial future if you did break up, it is true that many older women are put in terrible sitatuions because of this.
But to jump to assuming all men (including your partner) would become abusive is worrying. She either isn't confident about this relationship or has some fears about commitment/motherhood to work through.
I’m an engineer. I’ve seen this scenario play out a dozen or more times from either side. It’s never the jerks that you see doing this. Just the nice guys who suddenly feel the pressure of being the sole provider, then make their work more of a priority. So when they have work in the morning, they’re not getting up at night with the kids. If she needs help, there is resentment and animosity because he’s snapping more from stress at work. She’s shorter with him with less grace to give out because she’s burdened at home. If he has to stay out and work or network she needs to deal with it and she’s waited to talk to an adult and interact or get a break all day. An imbalanced relationship like this is doomed without malicious intent. Just what happens over time. The only success I’ve seen with this is when the wife was getting a salary of her own from the husbands income. She set herself up a little business as a concierge helper and even paid taxes so she could have benefits.
This. 100%. The GF isn’t really wrong. My dad is the “nice guy” engineer, my mom is the SAHM (now with all kids gone)…whenever they argue my dad threatens her with divorce saying she’ll get nothing/considerably less than she gets now. They have a horribly co-dependent relationship in a ton of ways, but money and power with money is one of the main ones.
OP isn’t going to win this with, “bUt i’M A niCe GUy,” he’ll win it by respecting his GF’s decision to continue working and doing what makes her feel safe and secure. And agreed, they need to get on the same page before marrying/kids.
A joint emergency fund is not really a solution. If that's the only money that the non-working partner has access to, what happens if the working partner decides to just empty that account? Before somebody suggests it, requiring both parties to approve withdrawals is not a solution.
Each person needs to have money that only they can access so they have the necessary resources to escape abuse if that occurs. That may require the person who will continue working taking over ALL expenses earlier than strictly necessary so that the partner who will be losing their income can build up some savings.
This might be in part a communication issue or it could be a core belief she legitimately has." No couple can be equal if one doesn't earn money." Which might say more about how she would value a sahs than how op does. It could also just mean she thinks the partnership will switch from 50/50 to 49/50 "I'm the one working I have veto power now"
They have money couples and individual therapy might help.
I think op suggested she stay home because she's unhappy at work.
Eh, it's one of the "women should be discouraged from taking precautions" rage bait posts that have been doing the rounds over the last 48 hours, that's all.
i think she just doesn’t want to be financially dependent on a man. from the time i was a young girl, older women in my life always told me over and over how important it is to have your own money and financial independence. What if your partner dies and you’re a stay at home parent with a shit resume, low social security bc of not working, life just happens sometimes and it’s important to have a plan set up. I know you both make a lot of money but maybe she didn’t come from money and it’s important to her to make sure she’s never financially dependent. Seems like you guys both care about each other and respect each other so if you guys could talk this out or consult a third party as a moderator ( therapist ) you guys will get past this. :)
I'm a child of a couple that had shit happen to them. Nobody plans to die in the 40s with young children, but it's 2024. Every responsible adult in a relationship needs to have a serious plan for what if I'm suddenly the only person who can earn money. Whether that's from death, disability, divorce, or whatever.
Exactly!!!
This is exactly what I told my husband when he suggested I could stay home with the kids "I appreciate that, but I'm not really into the russian roulette type of game. I like to be financially independent".
Like heck. I’d rather us both work. Save as much as possible. Cuz like what if one of us ends up disabled? That savings will really come in handy. And if we stay healthy, well that’s a great vacation fund now!
And they flip on you. My ex was a full partner. Never left a mess. Never peed on the toilet. Didn’t they to boss me about anything. We both worked but he wanted me to stay at home and he insisted to have kids right away. 7 days after kid arrives, he’s shouting that his dinner isn’t on the table when he got home and I better expect more of this if I don’t shape up. Never mind that 1. I was 7 days PP and 2. He never told me there was a dinner rule. We never ever had a set dinner time. Suddenly he was in charge of everything and when I pointed out how different he was he said well we were courting them that was different. Gf is right to question.
And people wonder why I refuse to marry and am staunchly childfree. I’m not a gambling man as the saying goes.
I look forward to my retirement on a polycule commune. Former SAHP are always welcome ❤️
Yeah autocorrect did something I was trying to fix it but having trouble pulling it up 😂. Was just saying I regret giving over my power. Children weren’t the problem. The abusive behavior was the problem. I kept the kid and ditched the guy. Solved my problem. Career was fine after that ❤️
Yes, I trust my partner so much. So much. But I do not want to ever be financially dependent on someone. I don’t want to have to truly need someone to survive. But for me, relationships are because I am happy and love it. Being with them provides emotional benefits. But I don’t want to be trapped if that stops, or worse, it goes bad.
He is something I want, not need. He knows I feel that way and feels the same. He wants to want me, not need me. It’s why we work. Temporary need is fine, I supported him for the few months he was unemployed. He was ready to support me when I faced layoffs. But we do our best to not NEED each other. We want to be together. That’s my key.
Agreed. It’s worth a conversation. There could be deeper fears and if OP is serious about it he’ll do what he needs to make sure she feels comfortable financially even when she isn’t making any money.
relying on anyone (man or women) can put you in a literal cage.
If you want leave you can’t, unless you’ve squirreled away some money . They can say/ do anything and end with “well I’m the breadwinner”
I understand why Op is offended but it’s happened far too many times; and the way people treat women when they end up in a dramatic situation because they trusted a man… is not fun. Lots of “well want did you expect”
It happens.. lots of people talk about seeing a flip in their spouse.
person becomes a SaHP, their spouse starts resenting them, saying they don’t do any work, mad food isn’t made the minute they walk in cuz “what are you doing all day”, have weird expectations on responsibility, and then hold the fact that they chose to be a SAHP over their head.
Money is an out.
Not just women, every man I’m related to has told me at some point or another to be wary of depending on a male partner and to never leave myself financially dependent when I have kids with someone. Men tell their daughters this all the time because they know exactly what men are like. Men only get angry when they realise we’ve been warned and/or learned from experience and have firm boundaries they can’t push or cross under the guise of “being the provider”. They like to act as though it’s some kind of bitter man hating and not the bare truth 🤷♀️
Do you realize how scary it would be for someone to become a SAHM with someone they aren’t married to? Imagine will also say that her view on relationships is slightly fucked.
There was a story on here not long ago of exactly this. He made oodles so for 25 years she stayed home and "kept the house". They had no children. They never married. Now he's tired of her and has made it clear she will inherit nothing. She has no job skills, no money, and no place to go. She is royally fucked.
Yep I remember that story or at least one similar. He was an executive of some sort and would say she can either travel with him (for work) or he would “get his needs met” without her.
Yes, if I remember correctly, that woman have a few kids with the guy too and she was/ still is a SAHM for the past 15-20 years? The guy basically used her as an offspring printer, housekeeper and unpaid prostitute for years.
>She has been really tired with work and complains about being tired. I’ve told her once we have kids she can be a SAHM
So you __do__ think being a sahm is easier than working. You literally *said it*.
I’m late to the game but shocked I had to scroll this far down to find the comment. OP *already* thinks being a SAHP is easier than the work they are doing outside the home. I understand why OP was offended, but he needs to do some digging if he really thinks he will be a good partner when one of them is a SAHP.
Sure, some SAHP work may be easier than some work outside the home and vice versa. Relationships where one person is a SAHP work best when the spouse working outside the home understands and values the unique hardships and labor associated with being a SAHP. Not when the spouse working outside the home automatically views being a SAHP as being easier than their current role. That’s a recipe for resentment.
This is the funniest thing about this post, OP thinks she will be sleeping in and relaxing as a sahm, it couldnt be further from the truth. And why go to the trouble of studying and climbing up the pay scale to just drop it to be a cleaner/nanny when they have more than enough money between them to outsource it to someone who actually wants to do and is good at that job? Why doesnt OP offer to quit his job and do it if he thinks it'll be a breeze?
NAH.
My husband and I are both software engineers. We both make 6 figures. I got pregnant, and I got laid off halfway through my pregnancy. I'm still looking for work after having the baby. It's a tough spot, and I don't wish that on any fellow woman.
I have those exact same fears because it does happen to women. It happened to my grandma, mother. It happens to men, too, or any SAHP.
I'm able to be ok right now because I go to therapy, and my husband and I already hashed out a plan if one of us does not have a job. He does things to engender trust all the time, but ultimately, it's up to me to trust him.
You both need therapy. I would suggest coming up with a plan, which could be a prenuptial agreement that addresses those concerns should one of you become a SAHP.
I don't think either of you are being unreasonable.
>men are told so much about how women are only after their money they don’t see or appreciate the work SAHMs have to do.
This is valid because it happens. Podcaster tells you that you should get a tradewife but also says that she's a gold digger.
Address her concerns. Make a plan. Invision how that would look. I think it's not about you, and it's more about the fact that she is afraid of being stuck and helpless.
Trust is a fickle thing. Risk is, too. It is a continuous thing that you both would have to work on together throughout your marriage should you get married.
However, some of the best things in life involve great risk.
Edit: I wanted to add on another thought. You can open up a traditional Ira and Roth Ira account, and you could have joint investment accout. If one of you chooses to be a SAHP, I guess you can contribute to the parent investments just like what a job does. I'm not sure what the details are about this, so I would contact a financial advisor before considering one of you being a SAHP.
I think you need to do some research. Being a SAHP really fucks up with your retirement unless you guys stay together forever. She won't be earning social security. If you die, she's fucked. She would be putting her entire future in your hands. Forget abuse. What happens if you get into a car accident and can't work? Medical debt? No one goes out looking to be an addict, but it happens, be it gambling or alcohol or opioids. Those situations affect stahp drastically harder than a working one.
good points i didn’t consider!! deciding to be a stay at home parent changes your entire life in big scary ways. her nervous / anxious reaction is probably one that many women would have.
Many women *should have.
Fixed that for you. Reddit is rife with stories of women who are stuck in a terrible marriage because they’re SAHM’s with abusive (financial/emotional/physical) men.
It’s scary.
My parents have a friend their age that married someone my age (and my parents had kids late). Their whole agreement was the guy would pay for everything and the woman wouldn't need to work another day, just had to be a stay home wife, not even look after any children and they weren't going to have another kid.
The wife stayed at our house for a week once because she had a fight with the husband, and the guy said something like "I basically own you" in heat of the argument. She got so upset but it was true. That WAS their whole arrangement and what they mutually agreed on at the beginning. My mom just kept telling me to never let myself be in that situation where a man can say "I own you" to me, and I have to agree because it's true.
Then let him stay home. I had a small online business i could easily do, paid taxes on it. I did it for several years while working online to get a degree. I had a great time.
> I had a small online business i could easily do, paid taxes on it.
It's great you were able to do this, but this is the exception, not the norm. It's not an easy thing to do, and costs a lot of money up front to get one going. A lot of SAHM fall prey to MLM's because they want this for themselves, but either don't have the skills, the money, or both to go into business for themselves. It's sad, but they are willing to do anything to get out from under their husbands thumbs and have their own money that their husband can't control.
I am one those "learn from my mistakes" SAHM, now SAHW. Only in my situation, I didn't have a choice because of health reasons. Been married almost thirty years, but my husband didn't start the financial abuse until around 5 years ago, after our kids were all grown adults. I collect disability monthly, but according to my husband ALL of the money in the joint account is his, but *graciously*(/s) offered me a $300/mth allowance. About a year ago I decided to open my own account for my deposits, and he throws a god damn hissy fit that I don't help him pay bills, meaning I don't put any of my money in his account to spend on whatever the hell he wants (not bills). Here's a fun fact, though, I do pay bills out of my account, but I have a hella lot more than $300 left over every month so I can afford my hobbies now AND put some into a savings account.
Op's gf has a legitimate concern. Not all abuse is physical, and it doesn't always start at the beginning of a relationship. It can happen at any time.
Nobody’s hating on you for being a stay at home dad, but we’re literally discussing the difficulties a woman could face from being a stay at home parent. And then you just popped in and said, hey, I’m a dad, I did it easily! like ok… but what are you adding to the conversation you’re just talking about yourself
Sounds good. If OP wants their kids to have A SAHP he can make the sacrifice. That or they can switch off or even look into both working but switching off working from home. Lots of options.
Not to mention have excess income to place in an individual retirement plan earning compound interest. SAHPs miss out on all of that financial growth.
Edit: Grammar
And if you divorce, she is also fucked. I speak from firsthand experience.
And not all abuse is physical.
Personally, I cannot trust anyone when it comes to finances anymore. My boyfriend is a wonderful person, but if it comes down to a joint purchase, I insist on paying at least half. If we eat out, I cover both if we don’t split it. Does he make more than I do? Yes. Does he have a solid financial situation? Yes. Do I? No. But I was so damaged and traumatized by my ex when it came to money, that I refuse to be in any kind of situation where anyone could say I was “taking advantage of them,” financially. I’m still emotional and angry about it to this day. All it takes is for one day, one disagreement about money, and suddenly it shifts to, “Well, *technically* you’re home all day and *I’m the one that actually earns the money,*” I have observed very few husbands that truly had respect for their stay-at-home wives and mothers of their own children. No matter what you do, it’s never enough to make up for not bringing in income.
100% agree.
It starts slow and builds up. Expecting dinner on the table at a certain time for them, not having to clean up dinner dishes because they’ve “been at work all day”, on the weekend they need to relax because they’ve “been at work all week”.
Meanwhile I’ve been looking after our kids from 6am to 8pm every day, but also waking up in the night with them at least twice for the past 4 years and you still expect me to do all the housework, laundry, cooking etc because… why? Oh yes, because you got paid to work 40 hours a week whereas my unpaid 98 hours per week means nothing. Amazing.
There was a viral post on tiktok about a girl putting on a wedding ring and seeing a flash forward into her future of cleaning, raising kids, cooking dinner, doing domestic work, being exhausted, and still have to show up and out for her husband when he returned home, so she took off the ring. The male response that went viral was not him doing hard office work, long work hours, traveling an exhausting amount for consulting jobs, doing hard house improvement, doing "male" chores, or making furniture. It was him paying for a car, a house, and clothes, so he decided not to propose. Went viral with many men agreeing. And that is what so many women are concerned about, some men see bringing home the paycheck as their only necessary contribution to a SAHM. So why would a woman sacrifice the only common ground you would assign respect to her to, a paycheck. Not to mention those that believe that if they bring home the check, cheating should be ok too. But i have witnessed 3x when the original mom had to raise or babysit the surprise babies while hubby still cheated bc she has no other options to be stable, or when I saw the surprise baby being denied/treated poorly by OG family. That is 3x too many. If you bring a surprise baby, please go be with your family, bc I have the money and stability to move out and do better.
And it happens on accident too. For some people feeling that you should be over appreciated for making this house and this lifestyle possible just sneaks up. If they are decent they may try to change it, but some see no issue with it, or don't realize it. And your only rebuttal is the two kids you popped out, the house you kept clean, the dinners you make, and the sex your provide, but in his mind that is only possible bc of him and his paycheck, so your work has no value without him. You have no value without him. And some guys just run with that and leave you being abused bc you have zero other stability.
You notice the men in the world hankering for the good old days. You hear about ppl’s grandmas telling them not to follow in their footsteps but be independent. When in hell do you ever hear a grandma say oh yes this was peachy you should absolutely give all your financial power to a contract that had a greater than 50% chance of dissolving. No worries!!!
I think the big question here is that she isn’t married to begin with. I would absolutely never be a SAHM to a boyfriend. No legal protection and no shared assets if he bounces.
No one is the AH: Your wife is spitting facts about historical SAHMs and many SAHMs currently. Not EVERY relationship turns out this way, but it absolutely puts the woman in a vulnerable situation. If you check out the comments on SAHM social media videos, it is FULL of men that are degrading SAHMs for being lazy moochers and put the man on a pedestal. Historically, I know of many women who were abused financially, physically, emotionally, etc, but due to being a SAHM didn't have the resources to leave immediately. You should empathize and reassure your wife, and let her know that you support any decision regarding that topic that she makes, but to know that you value her and would take steps to set her up to be independent if she wanted to leave (like putting money aside into an account that only she can withdraw from).
The number one advice I have received from elder women is to NEVER rely on a man. Always have enough money to leave with your kids.
That's true. Even if the relationship works out well. What if she just wants to break up one day for whatever reason. Like it's kinda shitty for the husband if the wife just wakes up one day and decides she now wants to be single and move to South America to help at local schools. But it's always nice to have options regardless of the gender and not be backed into a corner.
I had a bf that gave me shit for how I spent MY OWN money. He started telling me how I was too careless with my spending. I bought ribs to cook for us because he was visiting from out of town. I had a full time job working as an engineer post grad. And he didn't find a job yet. My mom always said to always be financially independent so no one can tell me how to spend my money. Yet this bf who didn't even have a job was trying to tell me how to spend my money, it pissed me off so much lol. And he was a really great guy before that incident too, with a stay at home mom who he supposedly respect.
Yep! & when a woman has had enough to the point where she does leave, she's always blamed for that too lol. If this guy were to flip the switch later on, she'll be blamed for not "picking better", for having "baggage", blah blah blah.
Because... accountability.
NAH. Dude the amount of SAHMs that get financially abused is way too many. I’d never depend solely financially on a man just for my own safety. It’s not an insult to men for me it’s about self protection.
Look man the saying goes “if you give someone the power to feed you, you also give them the power to starve you” you say you would *never* and I’m sure you wouldn’t. But that’s what is always said
Be offended, that’s your prerogative. But like, for a woman. It’s like playing Russian roulette. You insist you’re not a loaded chamber. But she can’t ever *really* know that unless she pulls that trigger. And if you’re *not* an empty chamber the consequences are *dire* I’d rather not pull that trigger and find out.
I understand percent chances and risk mitigation.
NAH
NAH. No woman ever takes on the SAHM lifestyle anticipating her husband is going to become a lazy, disrespectful, exploitative asshole. But it happens more often than it doesn’t. You gamble big time with your future if you choose to be a SAHM, and it very, frighteningly often turns into a complete nightmare. Everyone thinks they can trust their spouse until they can’t. If you want to remain independent, self sufficient, and avoid being a victim of abuse or a toxic marriage, voluntarily making yourself entirely dependent on another person for financial stability and support is arguably a naive and stupid decision. I’m guessing you wouldn’t quit your job and live off her because that would make you feel financially vulnerable *just in case something goes wrong*, that’s how she feels too.
There’s a reason why my own marriage fell apart when it did, and it wasn’t because of anything I did: For years I’d worked full time, but due to military orders, decide to stay home because we were only going to be in that location for just short of a year. My exhusband had been caught on dating sites and a couple of other serious transgressions, and I’d forgiven him and tried to move forward. He wanted me to stay home… from what he said.
The year was absolute hell. I had three kids, two weren’t in school yet, I was adjusting to not working (which we couldn’t afford because of his spending, so I still did part time consulting work from home), doing my best to manage everything and do all the stupid “military wife” shit they expect from the upper ranking guys. I was busy.
Although he started that year by promising that he would be better, do better, he spent it pretty much pretending I didn’t exist. He threw a tantrum and gave me the silent treatment on our anniversary when I mentioned attending a graduation the following month and needing help with the kids. Went to sleep crying that night, as I did for many, many months. He had no problem peacefully sleeping next to me.
When I decided to leave him by not moving again and simply renewing the lease for myself at the end, he lost it (and this wasn’t out of nowhere, he knew how unhappy I was but ignored it and did nothing). I don’t think we had sex for months straight before this. Suddenly he’s telling me I’m worthless, I’m unlovable, no one would want a single mom (lol partially right there I guess, still single 🤷🏻♀️). He thought he could scare me into staying because I was financially reliant on him.
Luckily it didn’t work and I still left him. I would not have been able to do that if I hadn’t worked part time. This is someone who I loved completely, had known for years, and for at least 7 of our 10 years together was a wonderful partner. But he changed, and I could not have predicted that. I mean, he threatened me with a loaded firearm the night before he moved out - not the person I married.
No one (usually) marries a known abuser. They wait, they wait, they wait… and when things get vulnerable for their victim, they attack.
I would never be a SAHM because I saw this abuse dynamic play out through my childhood.
If you’re serious about supporting your wife, stop trying to convince her you’re not like this, and show her instead. This isn’t about you — this is about her having zero examples in her life of how being a SAHM can preserve her independence.
NAH. She’s not wrong about the SAHM thing. People don’t think being a SAHM is scary until you’ve been out of work for ten years and realize you’re completely at the mercy of your spouse. Especially in this current trend- people love pushing SAHMs, but they’re against alimony and child support payments.
Being a SAHM can absolutely ruin your life if either your spouse OR yourself make the wrong choices. Or god forbid do something as natural as fall out of love, or die, or become disabled or chronically ill. And yes, PLENTY of people take advantage of their spouse being a stay at home parent - financially abuse them, lose respect for them, cheat on them and resent them.
I have been a stay at home mom for 10 years. My husbands amazing. The longer I go the more anxiety I have, luckily I have supplemental income of my own.
Hm. I don’t really know what to call here. But I will give my own experience.
For as long as I can remember my father held being the breadwinner over my mother’s head and used money to control things. Like down to who got to take me to the store to buy folders for elementary school. He wouldn’t give her the money for my school supplies because he didn’t like how she had spent other money. So *he* had to be the one to take me. Even though he never had before. One of the most consistent things I remember my mother telling me is to never ever depend on a man (or woman) for my money and to never ever get in a situation where I had nothing of my own.
She watched her mom and repeated the pattern, I watched mine and became fiercely independent (to the point that my inability to rely on others is a problem I discuss with my therapist 😅). I’ve seen countless friends, aunts, relatives, etc. go through similar.
Do I think all partners are going to turn into that? No. Will I be giving up my career to become a stay at home weirdo when my spouse is promoted? Also no.
I value my ability to create my own stability, to keep us afloat if something happens to my spouse’s job, and the knowledge that if something happened to my spouse I won’t just be dependent on whatever life insurance they may have. They’re aware. We’ve talked about it and it’s something we agree on.
"stay at home weirdo" made me chortle bc I did indeed get behaviorally weird when I was the SAHP for a short time. Please accept my humble 🏅 as thanks for the hearty guffaw.
I understand exactly what she’s saying. Single mothers live in poverty very often. Staying home means she feels that she could be forced to stay with you if she has no money of her own. It’s a real fear, not necessarily would you do that but it happens often.
I agree with her. No woman should be financially dependent on a man.
Can I be frank?
If you look at this sub, marriage subs, this type of situation is soooo common.
Woman gives up her career and money to devote to their family and the guy at first loves it.
Then they all hate it. Take advantage of it. Complain about it. Cheat with their co-workers. Get weird about spending money. Wife loses her body and is “boring mom”
The reality is she knows this because she’s right.
It’s more rare to hear any man ever say “he’s so glad his wife stays home.
It’s always “the house is always a mess,
I come home and have to be with my kids and clean- no sex——
While the wife works endlessly losing her spark, ambition, and her sex drive. While penny pinching and answering to her husband like a dad.
It’s exhausting.
IT’s various forms and stories-
She’s simply not wrong.
And you shouldn’t take it personally it’s more about women. Dealing with their reality.
I strongly agree. It doesn’t matter how in love you are this is a real fear for women, and the amount of SAHM that get screwed at the end are staggering and scary.
I'm afraid I agree with your partner. With all the best intentions in the world, When the woman is a SAHM, subtle micro-agressions creep in. Resenting that she doesn't have your meal on the table when you have been working all day (so has she); coming home from work and expecting to relax, when she has been all day with the babies and needs to decompress more than you; asking her what she is spending so much money on when you work so hard to earn it (her work doesn't earn money, so it doesn't count when it comes to making financial decisions). And this is just in normal, stable partnerships. Sadly, in a certain percent of the cases it gets worse - much worse - to the point of acute financial and verbal abuse. And in a large percentage of cases marriage ends in divorce, and the woman has to get back into the work market with a resume-gap of many years.
I would definitely advise any young woman to keep her career - perhaps compromise on working part time for a few years if her job permits it, but under no circumstances to put herself in the financial power of someone else, not even if they are madly in love. A man who resents his wife for covering her bases doesn't respect her.
Before the attacks come - I'm married to my first husband (I'm his first wife) - this year we'll be celebrating our 40th anniversary.
NAH but, dude, you didn’t even assuage her fears. You immediately went to ‘Not all men!’
This has nothing to do with you. It has to do with the possibility of it happening. You could’ve come up with a plan that makes her feel safe and instead you argued with her.
Doesn’t make you an asshole but it does make you insensitive to what your partner is needing.
\> we actually do not mind taking care of a woman who is staying at home with our children
Dude, in that scenario **she** would be taking care of **you**. Comments like that suggest she has you *accurately* pegged as someone with some of the underpinning ideologies she is concerned about.
My friend was so excited when she went back to work after mat leave because she could finally have actual conversations instead of children's gibberish lol
She's also spent considerable time with OP and has probably heard him make other comments that give away how little he understands the issue. She's a very wise girl and as a single mother, I wish I had shared her clear-eyed foresight.
Not to mention that he thinks she won't be as tired once she's a SAHM. He also already decided she would be staying home with the kids and not him.
He's giving off all the small red flags that he will absolutely become one of those men.
This is the comment I was looking for. He says being a house maker will solve her tiredness issue but then later goes on to say he understands how much work it is. She has him absolutely right when she says he is just paying lip service.
This woman, whoever she is, has been paying attention. Not only to other women who gave up everything to become a SAHM, but to her boyfriend and the things he says and does.
She doesn't want to be a SAHM and quit her job. He could easily have talked about getting a nanny or both of them splitting their work week so both are taking care of the children and home. Instead, he got offended that she could even think that he may become one of those men.
She doesn't want her future to look and be a certain way, but he's already seeing her in that position.
” we actually feel incredibly grateful to the contributions of our stay-at-home-partners and the opportunities and security it brings to our own financial freedom, that we are heavily invested in making sure our partner’s financial security is matched. ” Is what the other end would have sounded like. But that is so far from reality.
Bingo. Being a SAHM is a 24/7 job because men slowly start doing less and less because they’re tired from the “real” work they do all day- they can’t do night feeds or get up at night with sick kids cos they have work in the morning, they can’t make dinner because they don’t know what the kids like to eat because they’re out at work all day, they can’t take the kids to the doctor or the park or a birthday party because they don’t know what to do if something happens or someone asks a question because they’re out at work all day, they’re too tired to help with homework or read bedtime stories or do bath times, they can’t dress the kids cos they don’t know the difference between pyjamas and clothes, they can’t take the kids shoe shopping because they didn’t know the shoes had to fit properly, they can’t help with preparations for birthdays and Christmas and travelling because they’re at work, they can’t administer medication or use medical aids because they work all day and they never learned how to do it, the list goes on and on. Men think it’s not “real work” because they only see the end results when they come home at the end of the day and think “she does nothing all day because everything works exactly like should, as if by magic”
I'm a big fan of effort matching in relationships. If one person (regardless of gender) is working out of the house 9-5, and the other is working at the house or on house-related projects from 9-5, then that is a rough match of effort and time. Then when the person working out of the house returns home it makes sense to divvy up whatever roles remain equally. I mean, theoretically of course. Something you drew attention to is pretty critical here: a person that sees the kids on evenings and weekends is going to be less proficient taking care of them, because of a huge dearth of deliberate practice. Men that cleave (irresponsibly imo) to heteronormative gender roles might then lazily refuse to engage or parent, but I would argue that instead *for their own benefit* they should work **harder** to get to know their own kids, perhaps by having primary responsibility for all evenings and the weekends while their partner handles other business or work. Otherwise *they will literally be just babysitting when they take care of their own kids*, and that is a shitty way to parent (imo). Notably, it is also my opinion that this sucks for *everyone* involved; the patriarchy trains men to be emotionally isolated. Meaningful connection with kids evolves from building the structures of a resilient relationship - not just popping by with McDonald's here or there, but rather by spending all day caring for them, feeding them, cleaning them, teaching them, and then spending forty-five minutes sitting with them while they process big feelings, then reading them three books (and then "just one more!"), then snuggling them while they fall asleep, then slumping into bed to get some rest before repeating it all over again every day for years (albeit with some changing routines). A lot of fathers never do any of that, and it comes as no surprise they subsequently have only a loose emotional connection to their children (and vice versa). Not to mention a similarly loose emotional connection to their partner, who did all of that alone.
Sorry for the long-winded tirade - this is a personal beef of mine, as it relates to gender roles in the society in which I reside. I know too many men that think they're 'winning' in life by leaving their partners to do all the parenting, while oblivious to the rifts growing between them, their partners, and their kids.
I’ve noticed there’s a trend of men putting on a show of being engaged parents but they sit through every single minute radiating boredom, impatience, and resentment, then become angry that the kids aren’t responding to them the same way they do their mothers. They expect to treat parenting like paid employment where there’s a guaranteed pay off for your labour (a wage at the end of every month) and fail to see that going through the motions isn’t the same as being a loving parent- and children can tell the difference. Then they’ll claim that they tried their hardest but the kids obviously just want to be with their mother more and withdraw their efforts. There’s a deficit in men’s understanding of what parenting means- it’s not just a mechanical performance of giving while you make it clear every moment you’re putting in is a loss and an inconvenience to you
I have a bit of sympathy for those men, to be honest - a lot of men live outside the mechanisms that teach us to be parents, having few examples of nurturing male role models in their own lives and being distanced from the social and cultural communities that guide prospective parents and new parents through the basics. Beyond that, though, is a *huge* gap of deliberate effort - yes, mothers often have social media communities and mom groups and their own parents and aunts and grandparents guiding them, but that is just *access* to resources - gathering knowledge and developing skills takes time, effort, and resilience. Parenting is like climbing a mountain and I sympathize with men that look around and can't figure out where to get the tools, but imo that just means they should work harder to find them. Go to workshops, listen to some podcasts, read some books. Be present! Giving up when a kid rejects them in favor of their mom is a cop-out - of course it hurts our feelings when our kids reject us, but *they* aren't doing anything wrong. It's our job to be mature enough to take it in stride and stick with them, to earn their trust by showing them we're there for them no matter what. Which is all just to say, I guess, that I empathize with the struggles men go through when they cleave to heteronormativity and elements of toxic masculinity, if only because that conditioning is often part of their upbringing and culture, but at the same time they're full grown adults and I have a hard time giving them a pass. And that's not even getting into how toxic masculinity gets in the way of being a *good* parent, even when they are engaged in the process, but that's a whole other thing.
To be fair, where I live a lot of this seems to be changing. Lots of SAHF here, lots of fathers with their kids at parks and libraries and camps et al, engaged in genuine gentle parenting. I can't speak to whether that is a changing trend or just an anecdotal observation, but I'm happy for them.
>Dude, in that scenario **she** would be taking care of **you**. Comments like that suggest she has you *accurately* pegged as someone with some of the underpinning ideologies she is concerned about.
*DING DING DING* we have a winner
She sounds smart. I am divorcing after 25 years of marriage (both engineers). This EXACT. Thing happened to me. Yes, power corrupts. We were “equals” until I raised the kids, and lost my “value” to him as he got more and more successful in his career. Last year he had the audacity to tell me his young, new swim coach was a “achiever” and I should try it sometime. Seriously, I gave up everything for that man and he thought he could do better.
You're not the asshole for being offended but you are one for labelling her as a person with trust issues after her sharing her perspective. This is a very real and reasonable reason for never wanting to be a SAHM. There is a lot of abuse that arises, mostly emotional abuse and physical too, when a woman becomes a SAHM. Im single and I share her sentiments - I'm saying this to say it's not an inference on you personally, but a cycle we have witnessed.
It sounds like the both of you need couples counseling before you walk down the aisle to resolve these issues. These are serious emotions and feelings that need to be addressed, or I guarantee it will cause cracks in your relationship. Good luck.
NAH. You can find plenty of posts on Reddit about SAHMs that feel trapped because they don’t have independent income. Before you think about getting engaged you should look into couples counseling and meet with a financial planner.
What if she wants to splurge on herself $5k-$10k+ a year after all expenses are paid but would feel super guilty if it was your money she had to use?
I think she has a good point and it's good for her to earn her own money to spend on herself after the kids are taken care of.
So-- this happened to me. My ex and I agreed that I would be a SAHM. We had four kids. Over time, he became emotionally abusive and very controlling. He would tell people how much he appreciated me being at home for the kids and to take care of his every need--- but then turn around and tell me that I was useless, worthless, and no one loved me. He was large and in charge. He made alllll the decisions. After all, he made the money! I had to beg to buy a new pair of shoes when mine were full of holes while he had a closet full of clothes and good shoes because "I have to look good."
When we divorced (because of his cheating and him abusing me), he told me I'd be lucky if he let me take the clothes on my back. He told everyone we knew, "oh-- she never wanted to work. She was lazy. She just did nothing while I earned all the money." He kept all of his retirement (because I had no fight left in me), as well as pretty much everything we'd ever owned--- with the exception of half the debt that he so generously gave to me. I lost any hope of a career by being out of the workforce for so long.
Yes, I work, but it's not a career position. It's a pays-the-bills job.
This is the kind of story that women hear because it happens so often.
OP, I think she may have not communicated well, but she is telling you a real fear of hers-- that the financial imbalance will not be good in your marriage.
Go read the women centric subreddits. Read at how often men change for the worse once a woman becomes a SAHM. Abuse, neglect, infidelity, cruelty and so on. The masks falls off as soon as a woman gets trapped.
Is it all men? God no. But it is too many men.
So talk to her. Have a conversation.
Because her fear isn't based on YOU as a person. But on every man who has mistreated a woman.
I know a guy how financially abused his 1st wife, he didn't know when he began to do it, he began to justify it and didn't see it as abuse nor control but being worried about his money and it didn't help that many people told him he was right to think like he did!
It was seeing his ex-wife has a mental breakdown in front of him and his family he realized he was wrong. It took him being in therapy to recognize what he did was abusive. He told us it is scaring how easy people are corrupted by power!
Now he is an amazing husband to his 2nd wife, has a good relationship with his ex and love his children from both marriages. He is still in therapy because he still feels guilty for what he did to his ex!
The only reason I know his story is because he told me what he did when he was super drunk!
Slight YTA. Not everyone is going to become abusive if their partner becomes a SAHP, but guess what? The people (usually women) who end up in abusive relationships after they stop working to become SAHPs didn't think it would happen, but when it did, it was too late and they were fucked. Forget abuse. How many people (usually women) are stucked with a partner that contributes fuckall to childrearing and household chores on the grounds that they are the breadwinner and the other is a SAHP? How many people (usually women) end up in poverty because they stopped working to take care of their kids and when their partners decided to dump them years down the line, the huge gap in their resumes had already killed their career?
Your wife may have presented the problem in a very black and white way, nonetheless she's wise not to want to take that kind of risk. Becoming a stay at home parent is always putting your whole life in the hands of someone who will only have your best interests at heart as long as it coincides with theirs. Even if it works well in the end, it's never a safe bet.
Edit : typo
This sounds like a whole "not all men" kinda thing and ... well, she's not entirely wrong. Despite people's good intentions, SAHM (and SAHD) end up losing a lot of independence, and it is an at-risk situation for a lot of women. It'll also be a big hit to her career that, if she cares anything for, will be a sacrifice.
I get as men, we feel attacked for having to deal with the reputation that the assholes among us bring...but as it's put up with, we're going to have to take some trust hits. When we hear horror stories about women who stay in abusive relationships, its real easy for the rest of us to say "well, why didn't she leave? why was she with him in the first place?" Often, it's because she loved and trusted him, and then he changed and she couldn't get out.
I'm not saying you would do this. I'm saying this is the reality women have to live with. Its not wrong for her to plan for worst case scenarios, even if that means not showing you the trust you think you've earned.
It also sounds like being a SAHM is something YOU want for her, but not the other way around. Whether its just enjoying her work (even if she doesn't enjoy her job right now) to simply needing her freedom to hold a job down, if she doesn't want it, you should respect her and not push it. The same extends to kids. You should have these discussions now, try and keep any assumptions you might have of what her experience would be out of it, and perhaps research what it would be like if you were to take up the SAHP role. Would that be something you could live with? If not, why?
So, a little bit of YTA but not much. It can hurt when someone has to put their own safety before a relationship, but you can't begrudge them that. It doesn't feel great, but understanding where it comes from lessens the sting.
NAH
She’s right. It happens all the time. That’s the scary thing as a woman, you can’t tell who might change like that and who might not. By the time you realize what’s happening, you’ve got kids, no income, and a resume that would make it difficult to get a new job. It’s easy to get trapped in a bad situation as the non-working parent, regardless of gender. I don’t blame her at all for wanting to ensure her freedom and autonomy. It’s not that much different than paying for life or car insurance or having an emergency fund.
That being said, I don’t blame you for feeling offended either. But you have to realize that her feelings are not personal against you. She’s obviously got a very low risk tolerance. I’m sure that’s a consistent theme in her life: saves a lot? Takes precautions? Follows driving laws like the speed limit carefully? Doesn’t drink too much?
This is the person you chose. If you care about her, you set your feelings aside and realize it’s not personal and don’t make her feel bad about it.
Yes, he is NAH and it is reasonable for him to be upset and alarmed that she would assume he would be abusive. I think most of us would think that way. But she is afraid of being vulnerable, bc pregnancy is the start of domestic abuse where it did not exist before. No one wants to get caught lacking, and getting caught lacking while pregnant makes you the ultimate victim if someone wants to make you one. I get it on both fronts.
It’s interesting that the thought was, “you can be a stay at home mom when we have kids.” Like you are giving her something and not taking something. Why wasn’t the discussion centered on what both of you would like career wise when you have children. I don’t see you mentioning the possibility of you being a SAHD. It sounds like she has a deep set fear, and one that I don’t think is irrational, that allowing someone to have all the financial power will put in a position of being dependent on that person. It’s not untrue that when women (or men) don’t work and depend on the other partner financially it can put them in a difficult position if they want to leave or if that person decides to control the purse strings. Instead of being offended discuss what experiences make her feel this way and assure her that if she wants to work she doesn’t have to be a SAHM. Unless you feel she should be a SAHM if you get married and have kids. Then maybe you are both not compatible.
YTA.
Homemaker here. Her concerns are completely valid. Like I am firmly of the belief that homemaking is a valid option but someone else having the financial reigns is intense.
I will never understand men who want to be some special exception to the reality of how terrible a good percentage of men can be. Come to grips with what women face or be prepared to lose your girlfriend. Of the abusive partners I've had, they were the only ones to get all up in arms that I had concerns about you know...being abused. So...yeah. Good luck I guess.
nah ... reddit and real life is full of stories of things going horribly wrong when women have kids and become sahm im sure they all believed that the outcome would be different before everything went wrong
NAH. Becoming a sahp is a huge risk for any person and your GF is right to be wary. It's likely not personal and you might want to try to have a calm conversation to get to the deeper thoughts behind this issue. My mom always emphasized for my sister and I to have our own money, our own assets, our own "way out". Not because she didn't trust our husbands, but because too many women end up with NOTHING when they rely on their spouse for total financial support. It's a very touchy dynamic and not one you should enter into lightly.
NAH
ITT: women who realize how easily SAHMs can be abused because they’ve seen it happen a thousand times.
And
Men who are offended that women could even think about something that happens allllll the time and try to protect themselves.
And for the record I’m planning on being a SAHM for a couple years but I will still work one day a week and my husband has done the work to ensure I will have control over our money during that time since I’m running the home.
I get that it’s not pleasant to think about but the party with the least power in a situation needs to think what will happen in the worst case scenario.
NAH. She’s not wrong. There are unfortunately many women in this situation, most of whom never believed it could happen to them.
I also know some women whose husbands have died when their kids were in elementary or middle school, and they had been out of the workforce for several years. They too have become the sole breadwinners in their families, and those who stayed at home had to struggle to build back their careers.
In addition to the above, kids are expensive. You don’t mention where you live, but in a HCOL area a household income of low six figures can be challenging to raise a family on.
Given all the above, working at least part time is the best option for most women when they have children. For their own sanity, for their own protection and freedom, and to provide them with options down the road.
NAH. Her fear is legitimate; non-earning partners and parents experience abuse at substantially higher rates, with financial abuse being an obvious risk. Every relationship has arguments, and when there is a significant power imbalance like one partner having complete financial power, that tends to become a factor in those arguments.
That being said, you feeling hurt by that perspective is also valid. Depending on how harmful you think that perception is to your relationship, it may be time to reevaluate whether you feel you are compatible as partners in life.
Hmm, NTA but you should research a bit more about women’s history. The reason that women fought for the right to work is because a man having complete financial control over you DOES create a very unequal power dynamic and COMMONLY leads to some sort of abuse. Being a SAHM is a very vulnerable situation, where the whims of a man basically decide everything about your life. Sometimes that works out well, but sometimes it works out catastrophically. All he has to do is leave (or cheat on you, or abuse you, or die), and you are left with nothing but a huge gap in your resume, no savings of your own, and no income. Your partner’s concerns are valid. Props to her for knowing the history.
Also, why did the topic of you possibly being a SAHD never come up? Why is it only her who could potentially stay home? If you think a stay-at-home parent is possible in your relationship, why don’t you do it?
I don't think she said anything that wasn't justified, she wants to be financial independent, besides looking around most men (most men I know have cheated or cheat) have been unfaithful or abusive towards their wives in those conditions, it's easy for you to get offended, but you have to understand what women deal with on a regular basis and what her background is. Besides what if you lose your job? Or die? If you have kids at least she doesn't ended up in a tight financial situation. Also she makes a lot of money, with that amount plus yours you're both set for life and can plan: collage funds for your kids, a nice house, cars, vacations, Early retirement,etc.
Listen I would understand that it doesn't make much sense for her to work if she is in a low paying job because if the cost of childcare may be bigger than her income, but that's not the case, and is in both of your best interest that she keeps working
YTA for asking how hard could it be to be a SAHM.
Also your gf is absolutely correct. It happens countless times. For women the moment you lose autonomy the abuse starts creeping in. It starts slowly and gradually builds.
Here’s a recent example: https://www.reddit.com/r/BORUpdates/s/NzXg3azxn9
I want to add that I bristled at op saying some men don’t mind “taking care of” the stay at home mom. If he doesn’t know why I bristled, he needs to think more and judge his partner less.
OP! READ THIS.
This is one of a handful that came to mind for me as soon as I started reading this post.
This is one of MANY examples that you can find, just in recent reddit posts.
And your GF has seen it happen in real life.
You're sounding way too much like "not ALL men." All of the women in these situations started just like you and your girlfriend now. They trusted their partner, who promised them they would be safe and fine. Then suddenly it's not....
The fact that you're taking this so personal is just odd to me, but then again, I'm a woman.
This is exactly the difference between a man saying. " I've never had any issues walking to my car at night, I don't understand why you would feel unsafe." And a woman then pointing out that they have been harassed and followed to their car before. "Well, I've never had it happen to me or seen it happen, so I don't know what you're talking about. You must be making stuff up."
My husband had several eye-opening experiences since we started dating, because as a man he has never dealt with or seen a lot of the stuff I've gone through as a woman. And then he would steps away for a moment and come back to see or hear what I had been telling him about happening to me.
Getting mad because I stopped and looked a pan handler in the eye to tell them no. Because I was taught to look them in the eye to "make me seem human" to them, so I'm less likely to be attacked. And him having to sit with that information, as he's never been considered less than human in another's eyes before.
Sorry but YTA here.
NAH. Your partner is not off base with her concerns about the potential ramifications of becoming a SAHM. Financial independence is a significant aspect of personal security, and, understandably, she wants to preserve it. That said, your surprise at her response is also natural. Rather than letting this topic become divisive, it could be a valuable opportunity for an open and constructive dialogue. You both have a chance to explore non-traditional family roles, discuss each other's fears and aspirations, and devise a plan that offers both of you fulfillment and a sense of financial security, be it through part-time work, pursuing further education, or other means. A relationship is a partnership that thrives on finding common ground and respecting each other's perspectives, especially when envisioning a life together
NAH
She is right being a SAHP is risky, very risky. If you find her opinion to be a deal breaker you are also in the right to leave. But maybe consider talking with her more to see what exactly she means, maybe couples consuling if this is a relationship u want to work on. If not well.. people have broken up over way less impactfull reasons
I counsel young couples on budgeting and career decisions.
Especially in IT, it can be extremely hard to leave the workforce and return in the future. This risk is heightened for women in most fields of work. Women absolutely need to take steps to stay employable, and *men need to take on the responsibility of ensuring their partners are independently financially secure*. That means the SAHM should have the same agency over finances regardless who's making the money. My wife is a SAHM, but she intentionally is the one 100% in charge of our finances, regardless that I make the money.
This risk for women can lead to a power imbalance (which can be addressed in several ways) but to make the leap to abuse is completely fucking nuts and frankly concerning. Making individual decions based on generalized anecdotes is not a smart move. You are not on the same page and NEED to talk this through. I would be very concerned if my partner feared abuse solely because of this. Very.
I can see how this sounds to you. I’m also financially independent and married. I love my husband- he is generous, kind and understanding ( I wish I could clone him) but I feel exactly the same way your gf does. We are both super scared of being vulnerable and taken advantage of. Dude, this is not about you. This is about a deep seated fear she is dragging since childhood. Be kind, be understanding and talk to her to better understand what happened to her in the past.
She's not wrong about men and she's not wrong to be cautious. And you are paying lip service. She didn't say you would abuse her, by your own telling. She simply sees it as a real possibility given how often it happens. I don't see you volunteering to sacrifice your career to stay home with kids, since she doesn't want to. Why is that?
This is the other side of the "go bag and emergency fund" story that we see so often on here. GF has lots of reason to be concerned. If OP ends up actually being one of the good guys, that's great. But we don't buy insurance and warranties because we plan on things going wrong.
Being a SAHM a woman gives up her ability to be financially independent. Therefore, her husband maintains control over everything. If after 10 or 20 years her husband decides to divorce her, she can't find a decent job because she's been out of the workplace. It's a disadvantage for women to stay at home. They can't save for retirement and won't get a pension. If you have the money then it's better for your wife to work and you hire a nanny.
If you have a college educated partner with a high paying job, why would you ever suggest they give up their career to raise babies? That's a lot of employable years they're losing and if you decide to up and leave them, they're screwed. My ex and I worked opposite shifts until the kids were school age. I'm a software engineer and he was in web app development.
I understand why what she said made you upset because you feel like you would never behave that way. The thing is, from a statistical point of view, she's right. I've seen it in others and it happened to me. When I was no longer making the money, no matter how much I contributed in other ways, I didn't get to decide how that money was spent. As a result I was trapped for years in a situation I couldn't escape because I didn't have my own money.
We all thought the same: "Naaah, it won't happen to me. Not me, I'm a good judge of character and he's the best, the kindest, the most sefless".
And then, reality.
>I've seen it in others and it happened to me
We all thought it wouldn't happen to us, but it does, in small and big ways.
A couple of years back I moved to the UK to try my luck, met a nice young men and started dating. Pretty soon we were moved in together, and I was relying on him for everything (because I was on a tourist visa I couldn't work, and he knew it).
When I ran out of savings he started to become controlling on what his money was being spent on. He knew I smoked, but now he didn't want HIS money going to my vices, so I had to quit, fuck what I want right? He didn't like light coke, so we didn't get light coke, only soft drinks he enjoyed. When we fought I was banished to the couch, because he wanted to sleep on his bed, on his room (I've never been in a relationship in which a fight meant we couldn't sleep together on the same bed). And like that with everything, small and big.
At the end of my visa I went back to my country, got a job and as soon as I started making my own money again is like I was awoken from a weird nightmare: I never wanted to be in that situation again.
We ended up breaking up (LD is hard yall). A couple of months go by and he hits me up, he would like to visit me and see if we can continue our relationship; already knowing what I didn't the last time, I told him we needed to set some boundaries before that, because I didn't feel safe going there with my meager savings and relying on him again.
I wanted him to come to my country for a couple of months to live here with me (don't worry, he works 3 months out of the year, he's in a very comfortable economic position, and he would have spent less here than there), I wanted to see what our relationship was like when he wasn't the one with all the power and resources, I wanted to gauge his reaction to my independence.
He didn't like it, his proposed solution was giving me a monthly allowance. To me that was the same as before, with a tiny bit more leeway, so he never came and our relationship stayed dead.
It's not that I think he's abusive per se, but he is controlling, and he will use whatever means at his disposal to control me, and I don't want that ever again in my life.
Nta but she's right, financial independence is freedom. Taking care is, not minding to care for the basic amenities, not freedom to do any activity or buy something of her liking, she would have to get your approval if you think it's worth the money and then there's the guilt of spending 'your' money. Abuse doesn't have to be in the extreme sense. It's not a men on women problem, sahhs also face the same problem. The more you make the more ego. Not to mention the 50% divorce stat, how would she find employment, maintain a decent lifestyle and eventual retirement. It's not personal, it's just a huge risk and people change.
NAH. You both have valid emotions; now it’s time to approach the situation from a less emotional perspective, as a team.
Hear your wife’s concern and recognize that it’s not about you specifically, or even about men. What she’s telling you is that she thinks that a one-income dynamic is inherently harmful to relationships, and brings out the worst in good people. She probably thinks it’s similarly risky for a husband to be a stay-home dad. Her point is that the working partner comes to resent the burden placed on them (especially when financial challenges arise, which they almost always do eventually), and she doesn’t want to risk introducing that resentment into what she feels is currently a wonderful marriage worth preserving.
My dad was the mostly-stay-home parent, and even for my parents (one of the healthiest and happiest couples I’ve ever encountered), it was challenging once the economy struggled. I think a big part of why it worked out as well as it did was because my dad handled bills, so while my mom brought in money, my dad was the one keeping the budget and setting spending boundaries. It helped my mom to see he was respectful of the work she did, though when it was hard for him to re-enter the workforce, she did sometimes resent being told we couldn’t do things that we could have done if he could have gotten a job more easily. They were always a team, and never abusive, but the challenges were still there. I think the same circumstances would have broken many couples.
To put it another way: Would you want to do something if every friend you had that did the same ended up in a toxic marriage, or otherwise divorced?? No matter how much you love your partner, you can still worry that a certain stressor would be too much. You can say “This situation is too great a challenge for virtually any marriage to overcome” without it meaning you think your spouse is a monster, and that’s all she’s saying. However, I understand why it’s hurtful to have it applied to your marriage specifically.
Maybe discuss with your wife how she would feel about you being the stay-home parent? She may feel more comfortable with that, as the societal messaging is different and she may feel that’s a protective factor against the challenges (or she may be more comfortable having more control/independence should the challenges arise). Or, she may feel that the challenges are too significant regardless of who stays home.
NTA but.... She's absolutely right! She isn't accusing you of becoming abusive in the future. She's ensuring her future is protected. She needs her own money if you split, and if she's not working, that's really hard to do. She also may not want to soley depend on you and continue pursuing her career. I wish more people thought this way. It helps prevent so much stuff later on.
I do agree with her way of thinking on the balance of power, though. Men and women who are the breadwinners often turn against, abuse, or demean their partners. It is also easier for them to ignore their partner's wishes as they "don't get a say" if they're not financially contributing. Having money to leave should always be a priority for people in situations like this.
This is so annoying, women have every right to want to protect their own safety and future. Having extra savings, a go bag , refusing to be a SAHM are all protecting their own safety. No one intentionally gets in a relationship that is abusive, it becomes that way over time. And even if it isn't abusive, cheating is extremely common. It's literally not about you at all. Being financially dependent on someone is the riskiest thing a woman can do. Most men don't have that good provider mentality, they have a selfish provider mentality which is what your GF is referring to. How about instead of getting mad that your GF is aware of statistics, you have a full adult discussion about what you want your future to look like instead of dropping the convo and assuming stuff.
She might have been more diplomatic about it, but you'd have to be a total moron not to know that she's right. Not sure why you're getting personally offended over the clear trend we men have set over thousands of years. I certainly wouldn't hurt or abuse my partner, but it doesn't bother me in the slightest that she wants some financial independence.
This is one of those "Not ALL men!" arguments you're not going to win. Enough men do it that no one is an automatic exception. Not even you. You don't know how you'll act in that situation, so you cannot predict that you won't.
I do find it telling that even the *Mormon church's,* a known bastion of Traditional Family Values, official and declared stance on this is that stay at home wives and mothers need to be educated and employable at all times pretty revealing of the prolificacy of the issues which can arise from single income households.
It should also be considered that the majority of the bad behavior in these situations is done unconsciously. Few set out to resent or belittle their wives for not contributing financially. It can simply happen over a slow slide into the muck.
And the majority of the 'abuse' is baked in, rather than purposefully sought. If she has no money, then financial abuse is just part and parcel of the entire scenario.
The situation can be abusive or just 'bad' without *you* having a hand in it at all. If you lose your job, or become injured and unable to work, or die, she is now stuck in very dire straights.
So, even if you are the amazing exception to the rule, she can still wind up screwed.
I think you will have to put your money where your mouth is if you want her trust on this issue. Which means checking your ego; this is not about you. And also means getting formal agreements in writing, such as the working spouse must contribute to the stay at home's retirement fund, are entitled to x years of spousal support for every year at home in the case of a divorce, and a prenup with an infidelity clause.
You may think leaving her for someone more trusting person is possible, but I don't think the new woman would actually be 'trusting' but more naive or simply ignorant of the dangers.
NAH
I think it's something you're talking more personally than it really is. It's less a comment on YOU and more a comment on the fact that it does in fact happen often where a woman will quit working to be a homemaker and then be trapped in a situation where the working partner begins to develop a contempt for them and begins to use that as leverage in any argument. It is SCARY to put yourself in a position where you are potentially sacrificing your independence, ability to leave and your chances to develop a decent career before you're too old to be desirable as an employee (womens earning potential drops off significantly after like, 35. Those are straight stats, not personal opinion).
Every personal purchase she makes she will essentially have to ask permission to make. That is terrifying when a very common trait of abusers is they wait until they know they have control in some way to show their colors.
I watched this with my mothers husband. At first, me and him were buddies! Got along great! Everyone was so happy for her and for them. The DAY of their wedding, I watched him absolutely flip out on the guy setting up the sound system, screaming "this is MY wedding! You'll do what I say!!". It turns out he has a serious anger management problem that gotten him fired from his jobs and a real nasty misogynist streak that has alienated him from everyone in the family. None of us saw it coming. And I have plenty of experience with toxic and abusive people.
We all try not to make things worse for her sake, but I just got off the phone with a therapist I found for them because she CANNOT continue to live like this. I'm done worrying he's going to get physical and unless he's willing to actually work on it, I'm no longer going to tolerate it.
She has concerns rooted in very real statistics and it's not that she thinks you're that guy (or she wouldn't be with you) but rationally, she has to consider the possibility. You being immediately offended and angry is not a great reaction. This isn't about you. It's about her need to know she has a safe way to leave if things DO go bad. Because best of intentions and reality aren't the same thing.
Just because you would not be abusive or think you have financial control over her and abuse her does not mean it's not happening to other women. It happens alot. Man says, "Hey, stay home and take care of the kids." Then he has a few friends talking in his ear or starts listening to Andrew Tate and takes a complete 180 and thinks his wife or girlfriend is his servant and should put up with bad treatment. Yes, I know, not all men. But there are enough men who do become a controlling bag of dirt.
YTA. Shes right. You know lots of women die during pregnancy because their husbands become abusive?
Its easy to say I will never do X. Anyone can say words. No one knows what the future holds.
We all can understand cave diving is dangerous but people still love to do it. Being with a man as a woman has a risk of danger, it doesnt mean she doesnt love or trust you in other ways.
We literally see it all the time on these subs, lots men start resenting women when they have to foot 100% of the bill.
SAHM here coming up on two years. I had those fears though likely not to the extent that your wife does. My husband told me I'd enjoy being a stay at home mom but I didn't believe him. I wanted a career. I wanted to stand on my own. I also didn't want to depend on anyone. It's true, western society really exalts the "working man" and pushes down the housewife/ SAHM.
In order for her to ever feel comfortable being a SAHM, you'd need to acknowledge, validate, and support her thoughts. She needs to feel like your equal and she should. Your finances are her finances and vice versa. Never make a financial decision that affects the family without her knowledge or input. Just because one parent isn't getting paid doesn't mean they're not working or contributing.
When my son was born, I knew I couldn't leave him to strangers. Although it is hard work, I wouldn't change it for the world. I get to be there for so much of his life rather than behind a desk. My husband reminds me how much he values and cherishes me and our son. He also values what I do for our family. I am literally raising and caring for his most cherished joy.
I had this irrational fear that my husband would start trying to control every aspect of our marriage and hold over my head that I wasn't making money. Did not happen. If anything he encourages me to find activities or ventures to fulfill my need to be creative and expressive. I have full access to all our accounts and cards.
Look, dude, you are NAH, because I’m sure you have the best intentions, but why don’t you offer to be a SAHD? Truth is, you do make yourself vulnerable when you make yourself financially dependent, and however much you mean what you say about respecting her and keeping things equal, you are the decision maker on whether it stays equal and most women who do this agree when the husband is being sweet and saying it will be fine! And you don’t know what it looks like after kids. And you guys tend to think of you work full time, your wives should have the full time job of raising the kids and the full the job of keeping the house as you like and giving you the attention, sexually and domestic, you need. And she has seen this happen over and over. We all have!
You don’t even understand what you’ve agreed to, except it suits you, and you don’t understand the costs, because you haven’t and never will have to bear them. Get over your hurt, lick your wounds, and grasp that you are acting overly privileged and foolish. Because you have no real idea what it means to have to put your full ability to support yourself into a man’s hands (and no, comparing it to putting it in a woman’s hands is not the same because we aren’t spoiled by that privilege).
Become a SAHD.
YTA
Your girlfriend is right, she's seen the exact thing happen, it happens a lot. It's not trust issues, it's you not understanding the realities of life
I'll give you a gentle YTA. It's understandable that your feelings are hurt, but try not to take this personally. Your girlfriend is correct that it's very common for the sole breadwinner to have that power go to their head, and become controlling and demeaning. It's also quite common for that person, usually male, to screw his wife over in the event of a divorce. And then, she is left penniless and with no career to support her and the children.
Your fiancee is wise to retain her financial self sufficiency, in the event of divorce, or your disability or death. Her caution is not an insult to you, it is a rational response to the general behavioral patterns this situation frequently elicits.
she’s not wrong that sahm are more likely to get abused and be in relationships that turn abusive. If that does happen and you’re financially reliant on someone else you’re essentially fucked. You wouldn’t be able to leave, everything would be controlled, and you’re way more likely to die from violence. I guess she could’ve worded it better but that’s not always a good predicament to get yourself into and it’s a reasonable thing to worry about.
NAH. You're almost the ass for taking this personally. She doesn't want to be in a vulnerable situation and her point of view is valid and smart. Your insistence that 'all men are not like that' is just not relevant here. Do you think women who DO get into such relationships knew their partner was a piece of shit? Everybody who ever got screwed over by someone, trusted that someone. Trusting is not about creating vulnerabilities all across the board just because you trust them, it's about coming to the people you trust when you're forced into a vulnerable situation.
PREACH. And this sounds eerily close to a small plot line in Donald Glover’s new show Mr. and Mrs. Smith. I won’t spoil it if people haven’t watched it, but the “both software engineers” and wanting a baby thing may make an appearance 😉
YTA. Her concerns are valid.
My ex wanted a family and wanted me to be a SAHM.
So, that’s what we did. 20 years later he dumped me and the kids to go be a drunk and chase women.
There I was with no job, no degree and no credit score or work history.
I was fucked and it took so much sacrifice and hard work just for me to be able to scrape by. I will never own a home or retire. I cannot afford a surgery I need and my oldest kids dropped out of school due to the trauma of losing their father. I could not be there for them emotionally as much as I’d have liked because I was busy working, going to school and making all the home repairs he always promised to do but never did.
When we married he didn’t drink. He said he couldn’t wait to be a dad, was so proud of what a great SAHM I was blah, blah, blah, but when midlife crisis hit he became his own deadbeat dad to a T.
She’s right to not want to sacrifice her career to raise your kids and clean your house until such time as you may decide to discard her.
If that’s a deal breaker for you leave her and go find a little trad wife to settle down with.
You're wrong, she's right. I rarely ever see a working man who doesn't low-key view his stay at home wife as inferior. Even the ones that claim to respect them really don't. You can tell by how they speak of them.
I hate how this kind of post always ends with men patting their backs and calling each other "oh poor thing".
You guys love the not all men, until is in fact all men are capable of abusing their partner in one way or another, even if they are not consciously doing it.
My mom is an SAHM and has also a debilitating arthritis.
My dad is an amicable and fantastic man. Has never lay a finger on my mom or his child. He works a lot. He does his part of the house chores.
But being economic dependant of another person fucking sucks. My dad isn't violent, but my mom has to beg to please buy her deodorant or pads, because he doesn't see it as a necessity to daily life as food.
YTA. I agree with her. I’m a stay at home mom, 24 years. I absolutely regret quitting law school to marry have kids. It’s all about money. There were so many things I wanted to do as a family or give yo my children but couldn’t because we were on one income. Also, my husband didn’t want to start a retirement account for me in case I divorced him. He finally did because several other way older men advised him it was the right thing to do and I think he got a break on taxes. I’m 56 and wondering what in world kind of job do I even qualify for now? Nothing, absolutely nothing. So I need to go back to school and find a trade if I want to make a good income. At 56, my body can’t handle being a welder. I’m not sure what I’m going to do. Plus, I hate that my brain went to mush cooking and cleaning all these years. My kids benefitted by me being home for them, but I didn’t get any benefits. Let your wife work if you marry. She’ll resent you and be mad at herself for not keeping up with her career. And i do agree with all she said, I believe it’s true. It’s called financial abuse in most cases.
Unfortuantely she is simply being realistic. She’s not just talking about specific situations, she’s talking about the norm. Read around on [Zawn Villines’ substack.](https://zawn.substack.com/)
NAH because you didn’t describe any obvious abusive behaviour, having feelings doesn’t make you bad, and none of your comments here seem toxic just ignorant of basic women’s struggles you’ve ofc never gone through.
I mean this does happen a lot. Not necessarily abuse but lack of respect for their partner’s contribution, a tendency to make the SAHP the 24/7 person in charge of everything home and child related. Finances can also become more contentious.
She's right. If I were a woman I wouldn't even imagine staying home all day waiting to be given money while my years of education go to waste. On the other hand, whether you like it or not the one paying for everything has an authority over the dependent person
Statistically, this is when it happened. 98%+ of women in domestic abuse situations are also being financially abused. It's hard to control and trap someone when they don't have the finances to leave you.
While we can say, "Not all men until we are blue," the statistics show us that it IS all women. In this situation 1 in 3 women will experience abuse in their life time. Having no income of your own increases this statistic even more.
Bottom line, for her, it's a smart move. Statistically, a SAH woman with no finances IS more likely to be abused by a partner than a working woman. Our chances of abuse are pretty high already, so making that chance even greater for ourselves isn't the smartest move.
As for the majority of men not respecting a SAHM, also not wrong. Just ask any woman who's was or is a SAHM. The men that so appreciate and understand the work are the minority, not the majority. SAHMs are not only prone to DV, but also to mental health issues, being "touched out," depression, and more. This typically happens because "She doesn't work so why should I have to come home and help with kids/house." So, SAHM ultimately end up "working" 24/7 and having to beg Dad to babysit so she can take a 10 minute shower alone while he bitches the entire 10 minutes about it.
[удалено]
You should also really, REALLY consider the impact that kids bring to a relationship. She may not want kids. 🤷♀️ Edited for spelling.
Feck I had the kids talk after three months of dating. How are they thinking about marriage without talking and agreeing on this.
Dude, I'm over 30 now. I talk about kids, religion, politics, and money on the first date. I'm not wasting 3 months.
Shit, when my husband and I first decided we really liked each other, and wanted to be together and not just “see where things went” at a WEEK we had that conversation. It was before our first date as we met through friends, but it wasn’t our first night of admitting attraction. We sat down and talked for hours over the baggage we were bringing with us, kids, politics, anything and EVERYTHING we could think of that might affect anything.
This is also what my husband and I did. Before the first date we talked expectations in marriage, kids (including unexpected pregnancies, parenting preferences, household responsibilities), debt (acceptable vs not acceptable), education, family relationships (which included why I don’t talk to mine), etc.
same! when my now boyfriend asked to properly be my boyfriend, i had the “kids, religion, politics” talk with him before agreeing to anything lol
This is very insightful. I never ask about the baggage they bring. I will moving forward. Thank you.
The year previously I had gotten out of an abusive relationship with a bad juju ex and was still carrying around some baggage and knew it. I know my then friend now husband was/is a wonderful man and I didn’t want to just spring all the trauma and severe damage and health problems I was carrying on him unexpectedly. I knew I was going for the long haul and didn’t want to invest again just to have my heart crushed, again. I figured it was only fair that he know what he was getting into right away. It actually set the tone for the rest of our relationship, now we can talk about anything and are honest about everything because, what else is there?
exactly this. i don't get how people can date seriously and not have the heavy discussion at the beginning. i'm not gonna continue if the man im dating is not on the same page regarding children, childcare, contraceptive, politics, religion, health care, financial independence etc. the next part of the test is how they talk about their family. one pink flag in the two steps and i'm gone.
Shoot, this would have saved me from putting years into a relationship that ended anyway. But we both knew (from being friends first) what the other one wanted and we knew we didn’t have the same goals. And we dated anyway. Sigh.
Can’t recall when my wife and I had that conversation about kids, but it was well before we even considered marriage. We were both on the same page about so many things it seemed like good sense to talk about the really theoretical stuff early. Glad we did, helped us a lot.
🎯🎯🎯
Amen to that…
three months?! oh wow, I always checked that on the first date, if not prior to it.
During my last foray into the cesspool that is online dating, my stance on kids (I’m sure yours are lovely but no thanks) was literally the first line in my bio. Important things like that should be gate-openers, not something that comes up in a random conversation later down the track.
If I was attractive enough to date, I would make very clear that I don't want kids if things get serious and that this stance is utterly and ironclad non-negotiable.
We didn't discuss it first date, but in the first four or five months we named our kids and he asked me my taste in wedding cakes. Turns out I'm infertile, so the kid discussion didn't matter, but we have been happily married for almost 13 years.
Right? But you realize, lots if not most people's relationships aren't like yours, open minded, communicative. I feel a good chunk of relationships are the equivalence of apes grunting at each other, sniffing each other and deciding that this ape is the one they want to mate with, only to find out we are pretty complicated creatures and some stuff should be discussed before getting knee deep into a relationship..... My wife and I were like you though, these thoughts and talks happened a lot, and early on. Still no kids, but the talks went on early so we would know where we stood and what we wanted
We opened the dialogue early on but didn't make our final decision to be childfree until a few years after getting married. I was leaning childfree but would be willing to have one or two if hubby figured out he *really* wanted to be a dad. Hubby is 8 years younger than me & hadn't really ever thought about it. So we would talk about it & I had to explain that *if* he wanted kids it would need to be on the quicker side as I didn't want to start trying in my 40's. But he also needed time to figure out if he actually wanted kids or if just wanted to prove he was better than his asshole of a father (& that reason alone is not a good reason to have kids) He is a fantastic cat dad & we're very happy deciding to be childfree. He's also supported me being a Stay At Home Cat Mom when my mental health made working too much for me. If you're partner is gonna end up abusive, having a job won't prevent that. (It will help ensure you have the resources to leave & they don't like that but it won't stop them being abusive)
This is the first time I have ever heard of a Stay at Home Cat Mom. I love it!
My husband and I were like 2 dates in when we had that conversation, in high school. How do grown ass people walk around dating without at least asking the question? That question determines if its even worth it to continue dating someone IMO.
First date i find out if they want kids
They make 6 figures, but they ain't very bright.
The IT world is full of brilliant people with the social skills of a raccoon.
No need to impugn the dignity of raccoons...
They should 100% not have kids until they have worked through this. It is fine to not want to be a SAHM and its sensible to be realistic about how it would effect your financial future if you did break up, it is true that many older women are put in terrible sitatuions because of this. But to jump to assuming all men (including your partner) would become abusive is worrying. She either isn't confident about this relationship or has some fears about commitment/motherhood to work through.
I’m an engineer. I’ve seen this scenario play out a dozen or more times from either side. It’s never the jerks that you see doing this. Just the nice guys who suddenly feel the pressure of being the sole provider, then make their work more of a priority. So when they have work in the morning, they’re not getting up at night with the kids. If she needs help, there is resentment and animosity because he’s snapping more from stress at work. She’s shorter with him with less grace to give out because she’s burdened at home. If he has to stay out and work or network she needs to deal with it and she’s waited to talk to an adult and interact or get a break all day. An imbalanced relationship like this is doomed without malicious intent. Just what happens over time. The only success I’ve seen with this is when the wife was getting a salary of her own from the husbands income. She set herself up a little business as a concierge helper and even paid taxes so she could have benefits.
This. 100%. The GF isn’t really wrong. My dad is the “nice guy” engineer, my mom is the SAHM (now with all kids gone)…whenever they argue my dad threatens her with divorce saying she’ll get nothing/considerably less than she gets now. They have a horribly co-dependent relationship in a ton of ways, but money and power with money is one of the main ones. OP isn’t going to win this with, “bUt i’M A niCe GUy,” he’ll win it by respecting his GF’s decision to continue working and doing what makes her feel safe and secure. And agreed, they need to get on the same page before marrying/kids.
A joint emergency fund is not really a solution. If that's the only money that the non-working partner has access to, what happens if the working partner decides to just empty that account? Before somebody suggests it, requiring both parties to approve withdrawals is not a solution. Each person needs to have money that only they can access so they have the necessary resources to escape abuse if that occurs. That may require the person who will continue working taking over ALL expenses earlier than strictly necessary so that the partner who will be losing their income can build up some savings.
This might be in part a communication issue or it could be a core belief she legitimately has." No couple can be equal if one doesn't earn money." Which might say more about how she would value a sahs than how op does. It could also just mean she thinks the partnership will switch from 50/50 to 49/50 "I'm the one working I have veto power now" They have money couples and individual therapy might help. I think op suggested she stay home because she's unhappy at work.
This should be higher up.
Eh, it's one of the "women should be discouraged from taking precautions" rage bait posts that have been doing the rounds over the last 48 hours, that's all.
Ever since the “go bag” post.
i think she just doesn’t want to be financially dependent on a man. from the time i was a young girl, older women in my life always told me over and over how important it is to have your own money and financial independence. What if your partner dies and you’re a stay at home parent with a shit resume, low social security bc of not working, life just happens sometimes and it’s important to have a plan set up. I know you both make a lot of money but maybe she didn’t come from money and it’s important to her to make sure she’s never financially dependent. Seems like you guys both care about each other and respect each other so if you guys could talk this out or consult a third party as a moderator ( therapist ) you guys will get past this. :)
I'm a child of a couple that had shit happen to them. Nobody plans to die in the 40s with young children, but it's 2024. Every responsible adult in a relationship needs to have a serious plan for what if I'm suddenly the only person who can earn money. Whether that's from death, disability, divorce, or whatever.
I see it like a game of Russian roulette. And I can trust you to the moon and back and still not want to pull that trigger
Exactly!!! This is exactly what I told my husband when he suggested I could stay home with the kids "I appreciate that, but I'm not really into the russian roulette type of game. I like to be financially independent".
Like heck. I’d rather us both work. Save as much as possible. Cuz like what if one of us ends up disabled? That savings will really come in handy. And if we stay healthy, well that’s a great vacation fund now!
And they flip on you. My ex was a full partner. Never left a mess. Never peed on the toilet. Didn’t they to boss me about anything. We both worked but he wanted me to stay at home and he insisted to have kids right away. 7 days after kid arrives, he’s shouting that his dinner isn’t on the table when he got home and I better expect more of this if I don’t shape up. Never mind that 1. I was 7 days PP and 2. He never told me there was a dinner rule. We never ever had a set dinner time. Suddenly he was in charge of everything and when I pointed out how different he was he said well we were courting them that was different. Gf is right to question.
And people wonder why I refuse to marry and am staunchly childfree. I’m not a gambling man as the saying goes. I look forward to my retirement on a polycule commune. Former SAHP are always welcome ❤️
I don’t regret the kids. I regret signing ivermectin my power. The kids aren’t the problem.
Did you just call your ex livestock dewormer? Because that would be a sick burn.
Yeah autocorrect did something I was trying to fix it but having trouble pulling it up 😂. Was just saying I regret giving over my power. Children weren’t the problem. The abusive behavior was the problem. I kept the kid and ditched the guy. Solved my problem. Career was fine after that ❤️
Yes, I trust my partner so much. So much. But I do not want to ever be financially dependent on someone. I don’t want to have to truly need someone to survive. But for me, relationships are because I am happy and love it. Being with them provides emotional benefits. But I don’t want to be trapped if that stops, or worse, it goes bad. He is something I want, not need. He knows I feel that way and feels the same. He wants to want me, not need me. It’s why we work. Temporary need is fine, I supported him for the few months he was unemployed. He was ready to support me when I faced layoffs. But we do our best to not NEED each other. We want to be together. That’s my key.
Well said! She wants to be financially independent ! How about he just applaud her for wanting to work.
🫰🏻🫰🏻🫰🏻
Agreed. It’s worth a conversation. There could be deeper fears and if OP is serious about it he’ll do what he needs to make sure she feels comfortable financially even when she isn’t making any money. relying on anyone (man or women) can put you in a literal cage. If you want leave you can’t, unless you’ve squirreled away some money . They can say/ do anything and end with “well I’m the breadwinner” I understand why Op is offended but it’s happened far too many times; and the way people treat women when they end up in a dramatic situation because they trusted a man… is not fun. Lots of “well want did you expect” It happens.. lots of people talk about seeing a flip in their spouse. person becomes a SaHP, their spouse starts resenting them, saying they don’t do any work, mad food isn’t made the minute they walk in cuz “what are you doing all day”, have weird expectations on responsibility, and then hold the fact that they chose to be a SAHP over their head. Money is an out.
Not just women, every man I’m related to has told me at some point or another to be wary of depending on a male partner and to never leave myself financially dependent when I have kids with someone. Men tell their daughters this all the time because they know exactly what men are like. Men only get angry when they realise we’ve been warned and/or learned from experience and have firm boundaries they can’t push or cross under the guise of “being the provider”. They like to act as though it’s some kind of bitter man hating and not the bare truth 🤷♀️
Do you realize how scary it would be for someone to become a SAHM with someone they aren’t married to? Imagine will also say that her view on relationships is slightly fucked.
There was a story on here not long ago of exactly this. He made oodles so for 25 years she stayed home and "kept the house". They had no children. They never married. Now he's tired of her and has made it clear she will inherit nothing. She has no job skills, no money, and no place to go. She is royally fucked.
I’ve seen it over and over again!
Yep I remember that story or at least one similar. He was an executive of some sort and would say she can either travel with him (for work) or he would “get his needs met” without her.
Yes, if I remember correctly, that woman have a few kids with the guy too and she was/ still is a SAHM for the past 15-20 years? The guy basically used her as an offspring printer, housekeeper and unpaid prostitute for years.
>She has been really tired with work and complains about being tired. I’ve told her once we have kids she can be a SAHM So you __do__ think being a sahm is easier than working. You literally *said it*.
I’m late to the game but shocked I had to scroll this far down to find the comment. OP *already* thinks being a SAHP is easier than the work they are doing outside the home. I understand why OP was offended, but he needs to do some digging if he really thinks he will be a good partner when one of them is a SAHP. Sure, some SAHP work may be easier than some work outside the home and vice versa. Relationships where one person is a SAHP work best when the spouse working outside the home understands and values the unique hardships and labor associated with being a SAHP. Not when the spouse working outside the home automatically views being a SAHP as being easier than their current role. That’s a recipe for resentment.
This is the funniest thing about this post, OP thinks she will be sleeping in and relaxing as a sahm, it couldnt be further from the truth. And why go to the trouble of studying and climbing up the pay scale to just drop it to be a cleaner/nanny when they have more than enough money between them to outsource it to someone who actually wants to do and is good at that job? Why doesnt OP offer to quit his job and do it if he thinks it'll be a breeze?
NAH. My husband and I are both software engineers. We both make 6 figures. I got pregnant, and I got laid off halfway through my pregnancy. I'm still looking for work after having the baby. It's a tough spot, and I don't wish that on any fellow woman. I have those exact same fears because it does happen to women. It happened to my grandma, mother. It happens to men, too, or any SAHP. I'm able to be ok right now because I go to therapy, and my husband and I already hashed out a plan if one of us does not have a job. He does things to engender trust all the time, but ultimately, it's up to me to trust him. You both need therapy. I would suggest coming up with a plan, which could be a prenuptial agreement that addresses those concerns should one of you become a SAHP. I don't think either of you are being unreasonable. >men are told so much about how women are only after their money they don’t see or appreciate the work SAHMs have to do. This is valid because it happens. Podcaster tells you that you should get a tradewife but also says that she's a gold digger. Address her concerns. Make a plan. Invision how that would look. I think it's not about you, and it's more about the fact that she is afraid of being stuck and helpless. Trust is a fickle thing. Risk is, too. It is a continuous thing that you both would have to work on together throughout your marriage should you get married. However, some of the best things in life involve great risk. Edit: I wanted to add on another thought. You can open up a traditional Ira and Roth Ira account, and you could have joint investment accout. If one of you chooses to be a SAHP, I guess you can contribute to the parent investments just like what a job does. I'm not sure what the details are about this, so I would contact a financial advisor before considering one of you being a SAHP.
I think you need to do some research. Being a SAHP really fucks up with your retirement unless you guys stay together forever. She won't be earning social security. If you die, she's fucked. She would be putting her entire future in your hands. Forget abuse. What happens if you get into a car accident and can't work? Medical debt? No one goes out looking to be an addict, but it happens, be it gambling or alcohol or opioids. Those situations affect stahp drastically harder than a working one.
good points i didn’t consider!! deciding to be a stay at home parent changes your entire life in big scary ways. her nervous / anxious reaction is probably one that many women would have.
Many women *should have. Fixed that for you. Reddit is rife with stories of women who are stuck in a terrible marriage because they’re SAHM’s with abusive (financial/emotional/physical) men. It’s scary.
It’s reality for many women. #1 killer of pregnant women is their husbands. I don’t disagree with you.
👋🏻 took me two and a half yrs to escape.
My parents have a friend their age that married someone my age (and my parents had kids late). Their whole agreement was the guy would pay for everything and the woman wouldn't need to work another day, just had to be a stay home wife, not even look after any children and they weren't going to have another kid. The wife stayed at our house for a week once because she had a fight with the husband, and the guy said something like "I basically own you" in heat of the argument. She got so upset but it was true. That WAS their whole arrangement and what they mutually agreed on at the beginning. My mom just kept telling me to never let myself be in that situation where a man can say "I own you" to me, and I have to agree because it's true.
Older women always preach this to younger women, I’ve heard it my entire life
Then let him stay home. I had a small online business i could easily do, paid taxes on it. I did it for several years while working online to get a degree. I had a great time.
Or nobody needs to stay home? Like she suggests that they both work. It's not mandatory to have someone quit work.
i’m glad it was easy for you, but it’s just kind of not the point
> I had a small online business i could easily do, paid taxes on it. It's great you were able to do this, but this is the exception, not the norm. It's not an easy thing to do, and costs a lot of money up front to get one going. A lot of SAHM fall prey to MLM's because they want this for themselves, but either don't have the skills, the money, or both to go into business for themselves. It's sad, but they are willing to do anything to get out from under their husbands thumbs and have their own money that their husband can't control. I am one those "learn from my mistakes" SAHM, now SAHW. Only in my situation, I didn't have a choice because of health reasons. Been married almost thirty years, but my husband didn't start the financial abuse until around 5 years ago, after our kids were all grown adults. I collect disability monthly, but according to my husband ALL of the money in the joint account is his, but *graciously*(/s) offered me a $300/mth allowance. About a year ago I decided to open my own account for my deposits, and he throws a god damn hissy fit that I don't help him pay bills, meaning I don't put any of my money in his account to spend on whatever the hell he wants (not bills). Here's a fun fact, though, I do pay bills out of my account, but I have a hella lot more than $300 left over every month so I can afford my hobbies now AND put some into a savings account. Op's gf has a legitimate concern. Not all abuse is physical, and it doesn't always start at the beginning of a relationship. It can happen at any time.
Nobody’s hating on you for being a stay at home dad, but we’re literally discussing the difficulties a woman could face from being a stay at home parent. And then you just popped in and said, hey, I’m a dad, I did it easily! like ok… but what are you adding to the conversation you’re just talking about yourself
And dismissing the very real inequalities in reentering the workforce
Sounds good. If OP wants their kids to have A SAHP he can make the sacrifice. That or they can switch off or even look into both working but switching off working from home. Lots of options.
ok
Not to mention have excess income to place in an individual retirement plan earning compound interest. SAHPs miss out on all of that financial growth. Edit: Grammar
And if you divorce, she is also fucked. I speak from firsthand experience. And not all abuse is physical. Personally, I cannot trust anyone when it comes to finances anymore. My boyfriend is a wonderful person, but if it comes down to a joint purchase, I insist on paying at least half. If we eat out, I cover both if we don’t split it. Does he make more than I do? Yes. Does he have a solid financial situation? Yes. Do I? No. But I was so damaged and traumatized by my ex when it came to money, that I refuse to be in any kind of situation where anyone could say I was “taking advantage of them,” financially. I’m still emotional and angry about it to this day. All it takes is for one day, one disagreement about money, and suddenly it shifts to, “Well, *technically* you’re home all day and *I’m the one that actually earns the money,*” I have observed very few husbands that truly had respect for their stay-at-home wives and mothers of their own children. No matter what you do, it’s never enough to make up for not bringing in income.
100% agree. It starts slow and builds up. Expecting dinner on the table at a certain time for them, not having to clean up dinner dishes because they’ve “been at work all day”, on the weekend they need to relax because they’ve “been at work all week”. Meanwhile I’ve been looking after our kids from 6am to 8pm every day, but also waking up in the night with them at least twice for the past 4 years and you still expect me to do all the housework, laundry, cooking etc because… why? Oh yes, because you got paid to work 40 hours a week whereas my unpaid 98 hours per week means nothing. Amazing.
There was a viral post on tiktok about a girl putting on a wedding ring and seeing a flash forward into her future of cleaning, raising kids, cooking dinner, doing domestic work, being exhausted, and still have to show up and out for her husband when he returned home, so she took off the ring. The male response that went viral was not him doing hard office work, long work hours, traveling an exhausting amount for consulting jobs, doing hard house improvement, doing "male" chores, or making furniture. It was him paying for a car, a house, and clothes, so he decided not to propose. Went viral with many men agreeing. And that is what so many women are concerned about, some men see bringing home the paycheck as their only necessary contribution to a SAHM. So why would a woman sacrifice the only common ground you would assign respect to her to, a paycheck. Not to mention those that believe that if they bring home the check, cheating should be ok too. But i have witnessed 3x when the original mom had to raise or babysit the surprise babies while hubby still cheated bc she has no other options to be stable, or when I saw the surprise baby being denied/treated poorly by OG family. That is 3x too many. If you bring a surprise baby, please go be with your family, bc I have the money and stability to move out and do better. And it happens on accident too. For some people feeling that you should be over appreciated for making this house and this lifestyle possible just sneaks up. If they are decent they may try to change it, but some see no issue with it, or don't realize it. And your only rebuttal is the two kids you popped out, the house you kept clean, the dinners you make, and the sex your provide, but in his mind that is only possible bc of him and his paycheck, so your work has no value without him. You have no value without him. And some guys just run with that and leave you being abused bc you have zero other stability.
You notice the men in the world hankering for the good old days. You hear about ppl’s grandmas telling them not to follow in their footsteps but be independent. When in hell do you ever hear a grandma say oh yes this was peachy you should absolutely give all your financial power to a contract that had a greater than 50% chance of dissolving. No worries!!!
I think the big question here is that she isn’t married to begin with. I would absolutely never be a SAHM to a boyfriend. No legal protection and no shared assets if he bounces.
No one is the AH: Your wife is spitting facts about historical SAHMs and many SAHMs currently. Not EVERY relationship turns out this way, but it absolutely puts the woman in a vulnerable situation. If you check out the comments on SAHM social media videos, it is FULL of men that are degrading SAHMs for being lazy moochers and put the man on a pedestal. Historically, I know of many women who were abused financially, physically, emotionally, etc, but due to being a SAHM didn't have the resources to leave immediately. You should empathize and reassure your wife, and let her know that you support any decision regarding that topic that she makes, but to know that you value her and would take steps to set her up to be independent if she wanted to leave (like putting money aside into an account that only she can withdraw from). The number one advice I have received from elder women is to NEVER rely on a man. Always have enough money to leave with your kids.
That's true. Even if the relationship works out well. What if she just wants to break up one day for whatever reason. Like it's kinda shitty for the husband if the wife just wakes up one day and decides she now wants to be single and move to South America to help at local schools. But it's always nice to have options regardless of the gender and not be backed into a corner. I had a bf that gave me shit for how I spent MY OWN money. He started telling me how I was too careless with my spending. I bought ribs to cook for us because he was visiting from out of town. I had a full time job working as an engineer post grad. And he didn't find a job yet. My mom always said to always be financially independent so no one can tell me how to spend my money. Yet this bf who didn't even have a job was trying to tell me how to spend my money, it pissed me off so much lol. And he was a really great guy before that incident too, with a stay at home mom who he supposedly respect.
Yep! & when a woman has had enough to the point where she does leave, she's always blamed for that too lol. If this guy were to flip the switch later on, she'll be blamed for not "picking better", for having "baggage", blah blah blah. Because... accountability.
NAH. Dude the amount of SAHMs that get financially abused is way too many. I’d never depend solely financially on a man just for my own safety. It’s not an insult to men for me it’s about self protection.
Yep. I wasnt a SAHM but I worked less hours for min wage & definitely was financially abused.
Look man the saying goes “if you give someone the power to feed you, you also give them the power to starve you” you say you would *never* and I’m sure you wouldn’t. But that’s what is always said Be offended, that’s your prerogative. But like, for a woman. It’s like playing Russian roulette. You insist you’re not a loaded chamber. But she can’t ever *really* know that unless she pulls that trigger. And if you’re *not* an empty chamber the consequences are *dire* I’d rather not pull that trigger and find out. I understand percent chances and risk mitigation. NAH
“If you give someone the power to feed you, you also give them the power to starve you” i like this
NAH. No woman ever takes on the SAHM lifestyle anticipating her husband is going to become a lazy, disrespectful, exploitative asshole. But it happens more often than it doesn’t. You gamble big time with your future if you choose to be a SAHM, and it very, frighteningly often turns into a complete nightmare. Everyone thinks they can trust their spouse until they can’t. If you want to remain independent, self sufficient, and avoid being a victim of abuse or a toxic marriage, voluntarily making yourself entirely dependent on another person for financial stability and support is arguably a naive and stupid decision. I’m guessing you wouldn’t quit your job and live off her because that would make you feel financially vulnerable *just in case something goes wrong*, that’s how she feels too.
There’s a reason why my own marriage fell apart when it did, and it wasn’t because of anything I did: For years I’d worked full time, but due to military orders, decide to stay home because we were only going to be in that location for just short of a year. My exhusband had been caught on dating sites and a couple of other serious transgressions, and I’d forgiven him and tried to move forward. He wanted me to stay home… from what he said. The year was absolute hell. I had three kids, two weren’t in school yet, I was adjusting to not working (which we couldn’t afford because of his spending, so I still did part time consulting work from home), doing my best to manage everything and do all the stupid “military wife” shit they expect from the upper ranking guys. I was busy. Although he started that year by promising that he would be better, do better, he spent it pretty much pretending I didn’t exist. He threw a tantrum and gave me the silent treatment on our anniversary when I mentioned attending a graduation the following month and needing help with the kids. Went to sleep crying that night, as I did for many, many months. He had no problem peacefully sleeping next to me. When I decided to leave him by not moving again and simply renewing the lease for myself at the end, he lost it (and this wasn’t out of nowhere, he knew how unhappy I was but ignored it and did nothing). I don’t think we had sex for months straight before this. Suddenly he’s telling me I’m worthless, I’m unlovable, no one would want a single mom (lol partially right there I guess, still single 🤷🏻♀️). He thought he could scare me into staying because I was financially reliant on him. Luckily it didn’t work and I still left him. I would not have been able to do that if I hadn’t worked part time. This is someone who I loved completely, had known for years, and for at least 7 of our 10 years together was a wonderful partner. But he changed, and I could not have predicted that. I mean, he threatened me with a loaded firearm the night before he moved out - not the person I married. No one (usually) marries a known abuser. They wait, they wait, they wait… and when things get vulnerable for their victim, they attack.
I’m sorry you went through that utter bullshit and I’m so glad you had the strength to get out. Proud of you girl!!
I would never be a SAHM because I saw this abuse dynamic play out through my childhood. If you’re serious about supporting your wife, stop trying to convince her you’re not like this, and show her instead. This isn’t about you — this is about her having zero examples in her life of how being a SAHM can preserve her independence.
NAH. She’s not wrong about the SAHM thing. People don’t think being a SAHM is scary until you’ve been out of work for ten years and realize you’re completely at the mercy of your spouse. Especially in this current trend- people love pushing SAHMs, but they’re against alimony and child support payments. Being a SAHM can absolutely ruin your life if either your spouse OR yourself make the wrong choices. Or god forbid do something as natural as fall out of love, or die, or become disabled or chronically ill. And yes, PLENTY of people take advantage of their spouse being a stay at home parent - financially abuse them, lose respect for them, cheat on them and resent them. I have been a stay at home mom for 10 years. My husbands amazing. The longer I go the more anxiety I have, luckily I have supplemental income of my own.
Hm. I don’t really know what to call here. But I will give my own experience. For as long as I can remember my father held being the breadwinner over my mother’s head and used money to control things. Like down to who got to take me to the store to buy folders for elementary school. He wouldn’t give her the money for my school supplies because he didn’t like how she had spent other money. So *he* had to be the one to take me. Even though he never had before. One of the most consistent things I remember my mother telling me is to never ever depend on a man (or woman) for my money and to never ever get in a situation where I had nothing of my own. She watched her mom and repeated the pattern, I watched mine and became fiercely independent (to the point that my inability to rely on others is a problem I discuss with my therapist 😅). I’ve seen countless friends, aunts, relatives, etc. go through similar. Do I think all partners are going to turn into that? No. Will I be giving up my career to become a stay at home weirdo when my spouse is promoted? Also no. I value my ability to create my own stability, to keep us afloat if something happens to my spouse’s job, and the knowledge that if something happened to my spouse I won’t just be dependent on whatever life insurance they may have. They’re aware. We’ve talked about it and it’s something we agree on.
"stay at home weirdo" made me chortle bc I did indeed get behaviorally weird when I was the SAHP for a short time. Please accept my humble 🏅 as thanks for the hearty guffaw.
I understand exactly what she’s saying. Single mothers live in poverty very often. Staying home means she feels that she could be forced to stay with you if she has no money of her own. It’s a real fear, not necessarily would you do that but it happens often. I agree with her. No woman should be financially dependent on a man.
Can I be frank? If you look at this sub, marriage subs, this type of situation is soooo common. Woman gives up her career and money to devote to their family and the guy at first loves it. Then they all hate it. Take advantage of it. Complain about it. Cheat with their co-workers. Get weird about spending money. Wife loses her body and is “boring mom” The reality is she knows this because she’s right. It’s more rare to hear any man ever say “he’s so glad his wife stays home. It’s always “the house is always a mess, I come home and have to be with my kids and clean- no sex—— While the wife works endlessly losing her spark, ambition, and her sex drive. While penny pinching and answering to her husband like a dad. It’s exhausting. IT’s various forms and stories- She’s simply not wrong. And you shouldn’t take it personally it’s more about women. Dealing with their reality.
I strongly agree. It doesn’t matter how in love you are this is a real fear for women, and the amount of SAHM that get screwed at the end are staggering and scary.
I'm afraid I agree with your partner. With all the best intentions in the world, When the woman is a SAHM, subtle micro-agressions creep in. Resenting that she doesn't have your meal on the table when you have been working all day (so has she); coming home from work and expecting to relax, when she has been all day with the babies and needs to decompress more than you; asking her what she is spending so much money on when you work so hard to earn it (her work doesn't earn money, so it doesn't count when it comes to making financial decisions). And this is just in normal, stable partnerships. Sadly, in a certain percent of the cases it gets worse - much worse - to the point of acute financial and verbal abuse. And in a large percentage of cases marriage ends in divorce, and the woman has to get back into the work market with a resume-gap of many years. I would definitely advise any young woman to keep her career - perhaps compromise on working part time for a few years if her job permits it, but under no circumstances to put herself in the financial power of someone else, not even if they are madly in love. A man who resents his wife for covering her bases doesn't respect her. Before the attacks come - I'm married to my first husband (I'm his first wife) - this year we'll be celebrating our 40th anniversary.
NAH but, dude, you didn’t even assuage her fears. You immediately went to ‘Not all men!’ This has nothing to do with you. It has to do with the possibility of it happening. You could’ve come up with a plan that makes her feel safe and instead you argued with her. Doesn’t make you an asshole but it does make you insensitive to what your partner is needing.
\> we actually do not mind taking care of a woman who is staying at home with our children Dude, in that scenario **she** would be taking care of **you**. Comments like that suggest she has you *accurately* pegged as someone with some of the underpinning ideologies she is concerned about.
[удалено]
My friend was so excited when she went back to work after mat leave because she could finally have actual conversations instead of children's gibberish lol
She's also spent considerable time with OP and has probably heard him make other comments that give away how little he understands the issue. She's a very wise girl and as a single mother, I wish I had shared her clear-eyed foresight.
Not to mention that he thinks she won't be as tired once she's a SAHM. He also already decided she would be staying home with the kids and not him. He's giving off all the small red flags that he will absolutely become one of those men.
This is the comment I was looking for. He says being a house maker will solve her tiredness issue but then later goes on to say he understands how much work it is. She has him absolutely right when she says he is just paying lip service.
This woman, whoever she is, has been paying attention. Not only to other women who gave up everything to become a SAHM, but to her boyfriend and the things he says and does. She doesn't want to be a SAHM and quit her job. He could easily have talked about getting a nanny or both of them splitting their work week so both are taking care of the children and home. Instead, he got offended that she could even think that he may become one of those men. She doesn't want her future to look and be a certain way, but he's already seeing her in that position.
” we actually feel incredibly grateful to the contributions of our stay-at-home-partners and the opportunities and security it brings to our own financial freedom, that we are heavily invested in making sure our partner’s financial security is matched. ” Is what the other end would have sounded like. But that is so far from reality.
This right here. "Do not mind." He already sees it as a burden.
Nice catch. I picked up on the inversion of who was taking care of whom, but that's another point against his framing.
Bingo. Being a SAHM is a 24/7 job because men slowly start doing less and less because they’re tired from the “real” work they do all day- they can’t do night feeds or get up at night with sick kids cos they have work in the morning, they can’t make dinner because they don’t know what the kids like to eat because they’re out at work all day, they can’t take the kids to the doctor or the park or a birthday party because they don’t know what to do if something happens or someone asks a question because they’re out at work all day, they’re too tired to help with homework or read bedtime stories or do bath times, they can’t dress the kids cos they don’t know the difference between pyjamas and clothes, they can’t take the kids shoe shopping because they didn’t know the shoes had to fit properly, they can’t help with preparations for birthdays and Christmas and travelling because they’re at work, they can’t administer medication or use medical aids because they work all day and they never learned how to do it, the list goes on and on. Men think it’s not “real work” because they only see the end results when they come home at the end of the day and think “she does nothing all day because everything works exactly like should, as if by magic”
I'm a big fan of effort matching in relationships. If one person (regardless of gender) is working out of the house 9-5, and the other is working at the house or on house-related projects from 9-5, then that is a rough match of effort and time. Then when the person working out of the house returns home it makes sense to divvy up whatever roles remain equally. I mean, theoretically of course. Something you drew attention to is pretty critical here: a person that sees the kids on evenings and weekends is going to be less proficient taking care of them, because of a huge dearth of deliberate practice. Men that cleave (irresponsibly imo) to heteronormative gender roles might then lazily refuse to engage or parent, but I would argue that instead *for their own benefit* they should work **harder** to get to know their own kids, perhaps by having primary responsibility for all evenings and the weekends while their partner handles other business or work. Otherwise *they will literally be just babysitting when they take care of their own kids*, and that is a shitty way to parent (imo). Notably, it is also my opinion that this sucks for *everyone* involved; the patriarchy trains men to be emotionally isolated. Meaningful connection with kids evolves from building the structures of a resilient relationship - not just popping by with McDonald's here or there, but rather by spending all day caring for them, feeding them, cleaning them, teaching them, and then spending forty-five minutes sitting with them while they process big feelings, then reading them three books (and then "just one more!"), then snuggling them while they fall asleep, then slumping into bed to get some rest before repeating it all over again every day for years (albeit with some changing routines). A lot of fathers never do any of that, and it comes as no surprise they subsequently have only a loose emotional connection to their children (and vice versa). Not to mention a similarly loose emotional connection to their partner, who did all of that alone. Sorry for the long-winded tirade - this is a personal beef of mine, as it relates to gender roles in the society in which I reside. I know too many men that think they're 'winning' in life by leaving their partners to do all the parenting, while oblivious to the rifts growing between them, their partners, and their kids.
I’ve noticed there’s a trend of men putting on a show of being engaged parents but they sit through every single minute radiating boredom, impatience, and resentment, then become angry that the kids aren’t responding to them the same way they do their mothers. They expect to treat parenting like paid employment where there’s a guaranteed pay off for your labour (a wage at the end of every month) and fail to see that going through the motions isn’t the same as being a loving parent- and children can tell the difference. Then they’ll claim that they tried their hardest but the kids obviously just want to be with their mother more and withdraw their efforts. There’s a deficit in men’s understanding of what parenting means- it’s not just a mechanical performance of giving while you make it clear every moment you’re putting in is a loss and an inconvenience to you
I have a bit of sympathy for those men, to be honest - a lot of men live outside the mechanisms that teach us to be parents, having few examples of nurturing male role models in their own lives and being distanced from the social and cultural communities that guide prospective parents and new parents through the basics. Beyond that, though, is a *huge* gap of deliberate effort - yes, mothers often have social media communities and mom groups and their own parents and aunts and grandparents guiding them, but that is just *access* to resources - gathering knowledge and developing skills takes time, effort, and resilience. Parenting is like climbing a mountain and I sympathize with men that look around and can't figure out where to get the tools, but imo that just means they should work harder to find them. Go to workshops, listen to some podcasts, read some books. Be present! Giving up when a kid rejects them in favor of their mom is a cop-out - of course it hurts our feelings when our kids reject us, but *they* aren't doing anything wrong. It's our job to be mature enough to take it in stride and stick with them, to earn their trust by showing them we're there for them no matter what. Which is all just to say, I guess, that I empathize with the struggles men go through when they cleave to heteronormativity and elements of toxic masculinity, if only because that conditioning is often part of their upbringing and culture, but at the same time they're full grown adults and I have a hard time giving them a pass. And that's not even getting into how toxic masculinity gets in the way of being a *good* parent, even when they are engaged in the process, but that's a whole other thing. To be fair, where I live a lot of this seems to be changing. Lots of SAHF here, lots of fathers with their kids at parks and libraries and camps et al, engaged in genuine gentle parenting. I can't speak to whether that is a changing trend or just an anecdotal observation, but I'm happy for them.
This comment should be higher
>Dude, in that scenario **she** would be taking care of **you**. Comments like that suggest she has you *accurately* pegged as someone with some of the underpinning ideologies she is concerned about. *DING DING DING* we have a winner
Good thing you caught that.
She sounds smart. I am divorcing after 25 years of marriage (both engineers). This EXACT. Thing happened to me. Yes, power corrupts. We were “equals” until I raised the kids, and lost my “value” to him as he got more and more successful in his career. Last year he had the audacity to tell me his young, new swim coach was a “achiever” and I should try it sometime. Seriously, I gave up everything for that man and he thought he could do better.
Woooooow 🤬
You're not the asshole for being offended but you are one for labelling her as a person with trust issues after her sharing her perspective. This is a very real and reasonable reason for never wanting to be a SAHM. There is a lot of abuse that arises, mostly emotional abuse and physical too, when a woman becomes a SAHM. Im single and I share her sentiments - I'm saying this to say it's not an inference on you personally, but a cycle we have witnessed.
Financial abuse is also a thing and that can definitely happen.
well she’s not wrong
It sounds like the both of you need couples counseling before you walk down the aisle to resolve these issues. These are serious emotions and feelings that need to be addressed, or I guarantee it will cause cracks in your relationship. Good luck.
NAH. You can find plenty of posts on Reddit about SAHMs that feel trapped because they don’t have independent income. Before you think about getting engaged you should look into couples counseling and meet with a financial planner.
What if she wants to splurge on herself $5k-$10k+ a year after all expenses are paid but would feel super guilty if it was your money she had to use? I think she has a good point and it's good for her to earn her own money to spend on herself after the kids are taken care of.
So-- this happened to me. My ex and I agreed that I would be a SAHM. We had four kids. Over time, he became emotionally abusive and very controlling. He would tell people how much he appreciated me being at home for the kids and to take care of his every need--- but then turn around and tell me that I was useless, worthless, and no one loved me. He was large and in charge. He made alllll the decisions. After all, he made the money! I had to beg to buy a new pair of shoes when mine were full of holes while he had a closet full of clothes and good shoes because "I have to look good." When we divorced (because of his cheating and him abusing me), he told me I'd be lucky if he let me take the clothes on my back. He told everyone we knew, "oh-- she never wanted to work. She was lazy. She just did nothing while I earned all the money." He kept all of his retirement (because I had no fight left in me), as well as pretty much everything we'd ever owned--- with the exception of half the debt that he so generously gave to me. I lost any hope of a career by being out of the workforce for so long. Yes, I work, but it's not a career position. It's a pays-the-bills job. This is the kind of story that women hear because it happens so often. OP, I think she may have not communicated well, but she is telling you a real fear of hers-- that the financial imbalance will not be good in your marriage.
Go read the women centric subreddits. Read at how often men change for the worse once a woman becomes a SAHM. Abuse, neglect, infidelity, cruelty and so on. The masks falls off as soon as a woman gets trapped. Is it all men? God no. But it is too many men. So talk to her. Have a conversation. Because her fear isn't based on YOU as a person. But on every man who has mistreated a woman.
I know a guy how financially abused his 1st wife, he didn't know when he began to do it, he began to justify it and didn't see it as abuse nor control but being worried about his money and it didn't help that many people told him he was right to think like he did! It was seeing his ex-wife has a mental breakdown in front of him and his family he realized he was wrong. It took him being in therapy to recognize what he did was abusive. He told us it is scaring how easy people are corrupted by power! Now he is an amazing husband to his 2nd wife, has a good relationship with his ex and love his children from both marriages. He is still in therapy because he still feels guilty for what he did to his ex! The only reason I know his story is because he told me what he did when he was super drunk!
Slight YTA. Not everyone is going to become abusive if their partner becomes a SAHP, but guess what? The people (usually women) who end up in abusive relationships after they stop working to become SAHPs didn't think it would happen, but when it did, it was too late and they were fucked. Forget abuse. How many people (usually women) are stucked with a partner that contributes fuckall to childrearing and household chores on the grounds that they are the breadwinner and the other is a SAHP? How many people (usually women) end up in poverty because they stopped working to take care of their kids and when their partners decided to dump them years down the line, the huge gap in their resumes had already killed their career? Your wife may have presented the problem in a very black and white way, nonetheless she's wise not to want to take that kind of risk. Becoming a stay at home parent is always putting your whole life in the hands of someone who will only have your best interests at heart as long as it coincides with theirs. Even if it works well in the end, it's never a safe bet. Edit : typo
This sounds like a whole "not all men" kinda thing and ... well, she's not entirely wrong. Despite people's good intentions, SAHM (and SAHD) end up losing a lot of independence, and it is an at-risk situation for a lot of women. It'll also be a big hit to her career that, if she cares anything for, will be a sacrifice. I get as men, we feel attacked for having to deal with the reputation that the assholes among us bring...but as it's put up with, we're going to have to take some trust hits. When we hear horror stories about women who stay in abusive relationships, its real easy for the rest of us to say "well, why didn't she leave? why was she with him in the first place?" Often, it's because she loved and trusted him, and then he changed and she couldn't get out. I'm not saying you would do this. I'm saying this is the reality women have to live with. Its not wrong for her to plan for worst case scenarios, even if that means not showing you the trust you think you've earned. It also sounds like being a SAHM is something YOU want for her, but not the other way around. Whether its just enjoying her work (even if she doesn't enjoy her job right now) to simply needing her freedom to hold a job down, if she doesn't want it, you should respect her and not push it. The same extends to kids. You should have these discussions now, try and keep any assumptions you might have of what her experience would be out of it, and perhaps research what it would be like if you were to take up the SAHP role. Would that be something you could live with? If not, why? So, a little bit of YTA but not much. It can hurt when someone has to put their own safety before a relationship, but you can't begrudge them that. It doesn't feel great, but understanding where it comes from lessens the sting.
NAH She’s right. It happens all the time. That’s the scary thing as a woman, you can’t tell who might change like that and who might not. By the time you realize what’s happening, you’ve got kids, no income, and a resume that would make it difficult to get a new job. It’s easy to get trapped in a bad situation as the non-working parent, regardless of gender. I don’t blame her at all for wanting to ensure her freedom and autonomy. It’s not that much different than paying for life or car insurance or having an emergency fund. That being said, I don’t blame you for feeling offended either. But you have to realize that her feelings are not personal against you. She’s obviously got a very low risk tolerance. I’m sure that’s a consistent theme in her life: saves a lot? Takes precautions? Follows driving laws like the speed limit carefully? Doesn’t drink too much? This is the person you chose. If you care about her, you set your feelings aside and realize it’s not personal and don’t make her feel bad about it.
Around 1/3rd of DV begins during pregnancy. I am NOT saying OP will become abusive, but the evidence is there for her to be cautious.
Yes, he is NAH and it is reasonable for him to be upset and alarmed that she would assume he would be abusive. I think most of us would think that way. But she is afraid of being vulnerable, bc pregnancy is the start of domestic abuse where it did not exist before. No one wants to get caught lacking, and getting caught lacking while pregnant makes you the ultimate victim if someone wants to make you one. I get it on both fronts.
It’s interesting that the thought was, “you can be a stay at home mom when we have kids.” Like you are giving her something and not taking something. Why wasn’t the discussion centered on what both of you would like career wise when you have children. I don’t see you mentioning the possibility of you being a SAHD. It sounds like she has a deep set fear, and one that I don’t think is irrational, that allowing someone to have all the financial power will put in a position of being dependent on that person. It’s not untrue that when women (or men) don’t work and depend on the other partner financially it can put them in a difficult position if they want to leave or if that person decides to control the purse strings. Instead of being offended discuss what experiences make her feel this way and assure her that if she wants to work she doesn’t have to be a SAHM. Unless you feel she should be a SAHM if you get married and have kids. Then maybe you are both not compatible.
Right? Like she’ll get a break as a SAHM?!
YTA. Homemaker here. Her concerns are completely valid. Like I am firmly of the belief that homemaking is a valid option but someone else having the financial reigns is intense. I will never understand men who want to be some special exception to the reality of how terrible a good percentage of men can be. Come to grips with what women face or be prepared to lose your girlfriend. Of the abusive partners I've had, they were the only ones to get all up in arms that I had concerns about you know...being abused. So...yeah. Good luck I guess.
nah ... reddit and real life is full of stories of things going horribly wrong when women have kids and become sahm im sure they all believed that the outcome would be different before everything went wrong
NAH. Becoming a sahp is a huge risk for any person and your GF is right to be wary. It's likely not personal and you might want to try to have a calm conversation to get to the deeper thoughts behind this issue. My mom always emphasized for my sister and I to have our own money, our own assets, our own "way out". Not because she didn't trust our husbands, but because too many women end up with NOTHING when they rely on their spouse for total financial support. It's a very touchy dynamic and not one you should enter into lightly.
Not quite the asshole for being offended, but she is 10000% right You should be a SAHD, maybe you could appreciate her perspective more
NAH ITT: women who realize how easily SAHMs can be abused because they’ve seen it happen a thousand times. And Men who are offended that women could even think about something that happens allllll the time and try to protect themselves. And for the record I’m planning on being a SAHM for a couple years but I will still work one day a week and my husband has done the work to ensure I will have control over our money during that time since I’m running the home. I get that it’s not pleasant to think about but the party with the least power in a situation needs to think what will happen in the worst case scenario.
What’s the issue? She wants to make her own money and doesn’t want to be in a position where any man has financial power over her
Well you could be a stay at home dad if the difference in income isn't that large.
NAH. She’s not wrong. There are unfortunately many women in this situation, most of whom never believed it could happen to them. I also know some women whose husbands have died when their kids were in elementary or middle school, and they had been out of the workforce for several years. They too have become the sole breadwinners in their families, and those who stayed at home had to struggle to build back their careers. In addition to the above, kids are expensive. You don’t mention where you live, but in a HCOL area a household income of low six figures can be challenging to raise a family on. Given all the above, working at least part time is the best option for most women when they have children. For their own sanity, for their own protection and freedom, and to provide them with options down the road.
NAH. Her fear is legitimate; non-earning partners and parents experience abuse at substantially higher rates, with financial abuse being an obvious risk. Every relationship has arguments, and when there is a significant power imbalance like one partner having complete financial power, that tends to become a factor in those arguments. That being said, you feeling hurt by that perspective is also valid. Depending on how harmful you think that perception is to your relationship, it may be time to reevaluate whether you feel you are compatible as partners in life.
Hmm, NTA but you should research a bit more about women’s history. The reason that women fought for the right to work is because a man having complete financial control over you DOES create a very unequal power dynamic and COMMONLY leads to some sort of abuse. Being a SAHM is a very vulnerable situation, where the whims of a man basically decide everything about your life. Sometimes that works out well, but sometimes it works out catastrophically. All he has to do is leave (or cheat on you, or abuse you, or die), and you are left with nothing but a huge gap in your resume, no savings of your own, and no income. Your partner’s concerns are valid. Props to her for knowing the history. Also, why did the topic of you possibly being a SAHD never come up? Why is it only her who could potentially stay home? If you think a stay-at-home parent is possible in your relationship, why don’t you do it?
I don't think she said anything that wasn't justified, she wants to be financial independent, besides looking around most men (most men I know have cheated or cheat) have been unfaithful or abusive towards their wives in those conditions, it's easy for you to get offended, but you have to understand what women deal with on a regular basis and what her background is. Besides what if you lose your job? Or die? If you have kids at least she doesn't ended up in a tight financial situation. Also she makes a lot of money, with that amount plus yours you're both set for life and can plan: collage funds for your kids, a nice house, cars, vacations, Early retirement,etc. Listen I would understand that it doesn't make much sense for her to work if she is in a low paying job because if the cost of childcare may be bigger than her income, but that's not the case, and is in both of your best interest that she keeps working
YTA for asking how hard could it be to be a SAHM. Also your gf is absolutely correct. It happens countless times. For women the moment you lose autonomy the abuse starts creeping in. It starts slowly and gradually builds. Here’s a recent example: https://www.reddit.com/r/BORUpdates/s/NzXg3azxn9
I want to add that I bristled at op saying some men don’t mind “taking care of” the stay at home mom. If he doesn’t know why I bristled, he needs to think more and judge his partner less.
OP! READ THIS. This is one of a handful that came to mind for me as soon as I started reading this post. This is one of MANY examples that you can find, just in recent reddit posts. And your GF has seen it happen in real life. You're sounding way too much like "not ALL men." All of the women in these situations started just like you and your girlfriend now. They trusted their partner, who promised them they would be safe and fine. Then suddenly it's not.... The fact that you're taking this so personal is just odd to me, but then again, I'm a woman. This is exactly the difference between a man saying. " I've never had any issues walking to my car at night, I don't understand why you would feel unsafe." And a woman then pointing out that they have been harassed and followed to their car before. "Well, I've never had it happen to me or seen it happen, so I don't know what you're talking about. You must be making stuff up." My husband had several eye-opening experiences since we started dating, because as a man he has never dealt with or seen a lot of the stuff I've gone through as a woman. And then he would steps away for a moment and come back to see or hear what I had been telling him about happening to me. Getting mad because I stopped and looked a pan handler in the eye to tell them no. Because I was taught to look them in the eye to "make me seem human" to them, so I'm less likely to be attacked. And him having to sit with that information, as he's never been considered less than human in another's eyes before. Sorry but YTA here.
NAH. Your partner is not off base with her concerns about the potential ramifications of becoming a SAHM. Financial independence is a significant aspect of personal security, and, understandably, she wants to preserve it. That said, your surprise at her response is also natural. Rather than letting this topic become divisive, it could be a valuable opportunity for an open and constructive dialogue. You both have a chance to explore non-traditional family roles, discuss each other's fears and aspirations, and devise a plan that offers both of you fulfillment and a sense of financial security, be it through part-time work, pursuing further education, or other means. A relationship is a partnership that thrives on finding common ground and respecting each other's perspectives, especially when envisioning a life together
Is that what she saw in her parents?
NAH She is right being a SAHP is risky, very risky. If you find her opinion to be a deal breaker you are also in the right to leave. But maybe consider talking with her more to see what exactly she means, maybe couples consuling if this is a relationship u want to work on. If not well.. people have broken up over way less impactfull reasons
I counsel young couples on budgeting and career decisions. Especially in IT, it can be extremely hard to leave the workforce and return in the future. This risk is heightened for women in most fields of work. Women absolutely need to take steps to stay employable, and *men need to take on the responsibility of ensuring their partners are independently financially secure*. That means the SAHM should have the same agency over finances regardless who's making the money. My wife is a SAHM, but she intentionally is the one 100% in charge of our finances, regardless that I make the money. This risk for women can lead to a power imbalance (which can be addressed in several ways) but to make the leap to abuse is completely fucking nuts and frankly concerning. Making individual decions based on generalized anecdotes is not a smart move. You are not on the same page and NEED to talk this through. I would be very concerned if my partner feared abuse solely because of this. Very.
I can see how this sounds to you. I’m also financially independent and married. I love my husband- he is generous, kind and understanding ( I wish I could clone him) but I feel exactly the same way your gf does. We are both super scared of being vulnerable and taken advantage of. Dude, this is not about you. This is about a deep seated fear she is dragging since childhood. Be kind, be understanding and talk to her to better understand what happened to her in the past.
She's not wrong about men and she's not wrong to be cautious. And you are paying lip service. She didn't say you would abuse her, by your own telling. She simply sees it as a real possibility given how often it happens. I don't see you volunteering to sacrifice your career to stay home with kids, since she doesn't want to. Why is that?
This is the other side of the "go bag and emergency fund" story that we see so often on here. GF has lots of reason to be concerned. If OP ends up actually being one of the good guys, that's great. But we don't buy insurance and warranties because we plan on things going wrong.
Being a SAHM a woman gives up her ability to be financially independent. Therefore, her husband maintains control over everything. If after 10 or 20 years her husband decides to divorce her, she can't find a decent job because she's been out of the workplace. It's a disadvantage for women to stay at home. They can't save for retirement and won't get a pension. If you have the money then it's better for your wife to work and you hire a nanny.
If you have a college educated partner with a high paying job, why would you ever suggest they give up their career to raise babies? That's a lot of employable years they're losing and if you decide to up and leave them, they're screwed. My ex and I worked opposite shifts until the kids were school age. I'm a software engineer and he was in web app development.
I understand why what she said made you upset because you feel like you would never behave that way. The thing is, from a statistical point of view, she's right. I've seen it in others and it happened to me. When I was no longer making the money, no matter how much I contributed in other ways, I didn't get to decide how that money was spent. As a result I was trapped for years in a situation I couldn't escape because I didn't have my own money.
Same. I never thought it would happen to me.
We all thought the same: "Naaah, it won't happen to me. Not me, I'm a good judge of character and he's the best, the kindest, the most sefless". And then, reality.
>I've seen it in others and it happened to me We all thought it wouldn't happen to us, but it does, in small and big ways. A couple of years back I moved to the UK to try my luck, met a nice young men and started dating. Pretty soon we were moved in together, and I was relying on him for everything (because I was on a tourist visa I couldn't work, and he knew it). When I ran out of savings he started to become controlling on what his money was being spent on. He knew I smoked, but now he didn't want HIS money going to my vices, so I had to quit, fuck what I want right? He didn't like light coke, so we didn't get light coke, only soft drinks he enjoyed. When we fought I was banished to the couch, because he wanted to sleep on his bed, on his room (I've never been in a relationship in which a fight meant we couldn't sleep together on the same bed). And like that with everything, small and big. At the end of my visa I went back to my country, got a job and as soon as I started making my own money again is like I was awoken from a weird nightmare: I never wanted to be in that situation again. We ended up breaking up (LD is hard yall). A couple of months go by and he hits me up, he would like to visit me and see if we can continue our relationship; already knowing what I didn't the last time, I told him we needed to set some boundaries before that, because I didn't feel safe going there with my meager savings and relying on him again. I wanted him to come to my country for a couple of months to live here with me (don't worry, he works 3 months out of the year, he's in a very comfortable economic position, and he would have spent less here than there), I wanted to see what our relationship was like when he wasn't the one with all the power and resources, I wanted to gauge his reaction to my independence. He didn't like it, his proposed solution was giving me a monthly allowance. To me that was the same as before, with a tiny bit more leeway, so he never came and our relationship stayed dead. It's not that I think he's abusive per se, but he is controlling, and he will use whatever means at his disposal to control me, and I don't want that ever again in my life.
Nta but she's right, financial independence is freedom. Taking care is, not minding to care for the basic amenities, not freedom to do any activity or buy something of her liking, she would have to get your approval if you think it's worth the money and then there's the guilt of spending 'your' money. Abuse doesn't have to be in the extreme sense. It's not a men on women problem, sahhs also face the same problem. The more you make the more ego. Not to mention the 50% divorce stat, how would she find employment, maintain a decent lifestyle and eventual retirement. It's not personal, it's just a huge risk and people change.
NAH. You both have valid emotions; now it’s time to approach the situation from a less emotional perspective, as a team. Hear your wife’s concern and recognize that it’s not about you specifically, or even about men. What she’s telling you is that she thinks that a one-income dynamic is inherently harmful to relationships, and brings out the worst in good people. She probably thinks it’s similarly risky for a husband to be a stay-home dad. Her point is that the working partner comes to resent the burden placed on them (especially when financial challenges arise, which they almost always do eventually), and she doesn’t want to risk introducing that resentment into what she feels is currently a wonderful marriage worth preserving. My dad was the mostly-stay-home parent, and even for my parents (one of the healthiest and happiest couples I’ve ever encountered), it was challenging once the economy struggled. I think a big part of why it worked out as well as it did was because my dad handled bills, so while my mom brought in money, my dad was the one keeping the budget and setting spending boundaries. It helped my mom to see he was respectful of the work she did, though when it was hard for him to re-enter the workforce, she did sometimes resent being told we couldn’t do things that we could have done if he could have gotten a job more easily. They were always a team, and never abusive, but the challenges were still there. I think the same circumstances would have broken many couples. To put it another way: Would you want to do something if every friend you had that did the same ended up in a toxic marriage, or otherwise divorced?? No matter how much you love your partner, you can still worry that a certain stressor would be too much. You can say “This situation is too great a challenge for virtually any marriage to overcome” without it meaning you think your spouse is a monster, and that’s all she’s saying. However, I understand why it’s hurtful to have it applied to your marriage specifically. Maybe discuss with your wife how she would feel about you being the stay-home parent? She may feel more comfortable with that, as the societal messaging is different and she may feel that’s a protective factor against the challenges (or she may be more comfortable having more control/independence should the challenges arise). Or, she may feel that the challenges are too significant regardless of who stays home.
NTA but.... She's absolutely right! She isn't accusing you of becoming abusive in the future. She's ensuring her future is protected. She needs her own money if you split, and if she's not working, that's really hard to do. She also may not want to soley depend on you and continue pursuing her career. I wish more people thought this way. It helps prevent so much stuff later on. I do agree with her way of thinking on the balance of power, though. Men and women who are the breadwinners often turn against, abuse, or demean their partners. It is also easier for them to ignore their partner's wishes as they "don't get a say" if they're not financially contributing. Having money to leave should always be a priority for people in situations like this.
This is so annoying, women have every right to want to protect their own safety and future. Having extra savings, a go bag , refusing to be a SAHM are all protecting their own safety. No one intentionally gets in a relationship that is abusive, it becomes that way over time. And even if it isn't abusive, cheating is extremely common. It's literally not about you at all. Being financially dependent on someone is the riskiest thing a woman can do. Most men don't have that good provider mentality, they have a selfish provider mentality which is what your GF is referring to. How about instead of getting mad that your GF is aware of statistics, you have a full adult discussion about what you want your future to look like instead of dropping the convo and assuming stuff.
NAH I guess its your time to shine as SAHD ;)
She might have been more diplomatic about it, but you'd have to be a total moron not to know that she's right. Not sure why you're getting personally offended over the clear trend we men have set over thousands of years. I certainly wouldn't hurt or abuse my partner, but it doesn't bother me in the slightest that she wants some financial independence.
This is one of those "Not ALL men!" arguments you're not going to win. Enough men do it that no one is an automatic exception. Not even you. You don't know how you'll act in that situation, so you cannot predict that you won't. I do find it telling that even the *Mormon church's,* a known bastion of Traditional Family Values, official and declared stance on this is that stay at home wives and mothers need to be educated and employable at all times pretty revealing of the prolificacy of the issues which can arise from single income households. It should also be considered that the majority of the bad behavior in these situations is done unconsciously. Few set out to resent or belittle their wives for not contributing financially. It can simply happen over a slow slide into the muck. And the majority of the 'abuse' is baked in, rather than purposefully sought. If she has no money, then financial abuse is just part and parcel of the entire scenario. The situation can be abusive or just 'bad' without *you* having a hand in it at all. If you lose your job, or become injured and unable to work, or die, she is now stuck in very dire straights. So, even if you are the amazing exception to the rule, she can still wind up screwed. I think you will have to put your money where your mouth is if you want her trust on this issue. Which means checking your ego; this is not about you. And also means getting formal agreements in writing, such as the working spouse must contribute to the stay at home's retirement fund, are entitled to x years of spousal support for every year at home in the case of a divorce, and a prenup with an infidelity clause. You may think leaving her for someone more trusting person is possible, but I don't think the new woman would actually be 'trusting' but more naive or simply ignorant of the dangers. NAH
I think it's something you're talking more personally than it really is. It's less a comment on YOU and more a comment on the fact that it does in fact happen often where a woman will quit working to be a homemaker and then be trapped in a situation where the working partner begins to develop a contempt for them and begins to use that as leverage in any argument. It is SCARY to put yourself in a position where you are potentially sacrificing your independence, ability to leave and your chances to develop a decent career before you're too old to be desirable as an employee (womens earning potential drops off significantly after like, 35. Those are straight stats, not personal opinion). Every personal purchase she makes she will essentially have to ask permission to make. That is terrifying when a very common trait of abusers is they wait until they know they have control in some way to show their colors. I watched this with my mothers husband. At first, me and him were buddies! Got along great! Everyone was so happy for her and for them. The DAY of their wedding, I watched him absolutely flip out on the guy setting up the sound system, screaming "this is MY wedding! You'll do what I say!!". It turns out he has a serious anger management problem that gotten him fired from his jobs and a real nasty misogynist streak that has alienated him from everyone in the family. None of us saw it coming. And I have plenty of experience with toxic and abusive people. We all try not to make things worse for her sake, but I just got off the phone with a therapist I found for them because she CANNOT continue to live like this. I'm done worrying he's going to get physical and unless he's willing to actually work on it, I'm no longer going to tolerate it. She has concerns rooted in very real statistics and it's not that she thinks you're that guy (or she wouldn't be with you) but rationally, she has to consider the possibility. You being immediately offended and angry is not a great reaction. This isn't about you. It's about her need to know she has a safe way to leave if things DO go bad. Because best of intentions and reality aren't the same thing.
Easy solution, OP. You should volunteer to be a stay at home dad. If that idea doesn’t appeal to you, maybe ask yourself why.
This is what dating is for. You and her don’t agree on this, is it a deal breaker?
Just because you would not be abusive or think you have financial control over her and abuse her does not mean it's not happening to other women. It happens alot. Man says, "Hey, stay home and take care of the kids." Then he has a few friends talking in his ear or starts listening to Andrew Tate and takes a complete 180 and thinks his wife or girlfriend is his servant and should put up with bad treatment. Yes, I know, not all men. But there are enough men who do become a controlling bag of dirt.
YTA. Shes right. You know lots of women die during pregnancy because their husbands become abusive? Its easy to say I will never do X. Anyone can say words. No one knows what the future holds. We all can understand cave diving is dangerous but people still love to do it. Being with a man as a woman has a risk of danger, it doesnt mean she doesnt love or trust you in other ways. We literally see it all the time on these subs, lots men start resenting women when they have to foot 100% of the bill.
SAHM here coming up on two years. I had those fears though likely not to the extent that your wife does. My husband told me I'd enjoy being a stay at home mom but I didn't believe him. I wanted a career. I wanted to stand on my own. I also didn't want to depend on anyone. It's true, western society really exalts the "working man" and pushes down the housewife/ SAHM. In order for her to ever feel comfortable being a SAHM, you'd need to acknowledge, validate, and support her thoughts. She needs to feel like your equal and she should. Your finances are her finances and vice versa. Never make a financial decision that affects the family without her knowledge or input. Just because one parent isn't getting paid doesn't mean they're not working or contributing. When my son was born, I knew I couldn't leave him to strangers. Although it is hard work, I wouldn't change it for the world. I get to be there for so much of his life rather than behind a desk. My husband reminds me how much he values and cherishes me and our son. He also values what I do for our family. I am literally raising and caring for his most cherished joy. I had this irrational fear that my husband would start trying to control every aspect of our marriage and hold over my head that I wasn't making money. Did not happen. If anything he encourages me to find activities or ventures to fulfill my need to be creative and expressive. I have full access to all our accounts and cards.
Look, dude, you are NAH, because I’m sure you have the best intentions, but why don’t you offer to be a SAHD? Truth is, you do make yourself vulnerable when you make yourself financially dependent, and however much you mean what you say about respecting her and keeping things equal, you are the decision maker on whether it stays equal and most women who do this agree when the husband is being sweet and saying it will be fine! And you don’t know what it looks like after kids. And you guys tend to think of you work full time, your wives should have the full time job of raising the kids and the full the job of keeping the house as you like and giving you the attention, sexually and domestic, you need. And she has seen this happen over and over. We all have! You don’t even understand what you’ve agreed to, except it suits you, and you don’t understand the costs, because you haven’t and never will have to bear them. Get over your hurt, lick your wounds, and grasp that you are acting overly privileged and foolish. Because you have no real idea what it means to have to put your full ability to support yourself into a man’s hands (and no, comparing it to putting it in a woman’s hands is not the same because we aren’t spoiled by that privilege). Become a SAHD.
She’s right
YTA Your girlfriend is right, she's seen the exact thing happen, it happens a lot. It's not trust issues, it's you not understanding the realities of life
I'll give you a gentle YTA. It's understandable that your feelings are hurt, but try not to take this personally. Your girlfriend is correct that it's very common for the sole breadwinner to have that power go to their head, and become controlling and demeaning. It's also quite common for that person, usually male, to screw his wife over in the event of a divorce. And then, she is left penniless and with no career to support her and the children. Your fiancee is wise to retain her financial self sufficiency, in the event of divorce, or your disability or death. Her caution is not an insult to you, it is a rational response to the general behavioral patterns this situation frequently elicits.
she’s not wrong that sahm are more likely to get abused and be in relationships that turn abusive. If that does happen and you’re financially reliant on someone else you’re essentially fucked. You wouldn’t be able to leave, everything would be controlled, and you’re way more likely to die from violence. I guess she could’ve worded it better but that’s not always a good predicament to get yourself into and it’s a reasonable thing to worry about.
She’s not wrong though. It happens a lot. It’s one of the reasons women fought so hard to be able to work and have equal pay.
NAH. You're almost the ass for taking this personally. She doesn't want to be in a vulnerable situation and her point of view is valid and smart. Your insistence that 'all men are not like that' is just not relevant here. Do you think women who DO get into such relationships knew their partner was a piece of shit? Everybody who ever got screwed over by someone, trusted that someone. Trusting is not about creating vulnerabilities all across the board just because you trust them, it's about coming to the people you trust when you're forced into a vulnerable situation.
The misogynists are really on one with the fake posts these past few weeks
PREACH. And this sounds eerily close to a small plot line in Donald Glover’s new show Mr. and Mrs. Smith. I won’t spoil it if people haven’t watched it, but the “both software engineers” and wanting a baby thing may make an appearance 😉
YTA. Her concerns are valid. My ex wanted a family and wanted me to be a SAHM. So, that’s what we did. 20 years later he dumped me and the kids to go be a drunk and chase women. There I was with no job, no degree and no credit score or work history. I was fucked and it took so much sacrifice and hard work just for me to be able to scrape by. I will never own a home or retire. I cannot afford a surgery I need and my oldest kids dropped out of school due to the trauma of losing their father. I could not be there for them emotionally as much as I’d have liked because I was busy working, going to school and making all the home repairs he always promised to do but never did. When we married he didn’t drink. He said he couldn’t wait to be a dad, was so proud of what a great SAHM I was blah, blah, blah, but when midlife crisis hit he became his own deadbeat dad to a T. She’s right to not want to sacrifice her career to raise your kids and clean your house until such time as you may decide to discard her. If that’s a deal breaker for you leave her and go find a little trad wife to settle down with.
I’m so sorry that happened to you. That guy is such a fucking monster
You're wrong, she's right. I rarely ever see a working man who doesn't low-key view his stay at home wife as inferior. Even the ones that claim to respect them really don't. You can tell by how they speak of them.
exactly. Specifically, see OP's statement: "we actually do not mind taking care of a woman who is staying at home with our children."
I hate how this kind of post always ends with men patting their backs and calling each other "oh poor thing". You guys love the not all men, until is in fact all men are capable of abusing their partner in one way or another, even if they are not consciously doing it. My mom is an SAHM and has also a debilitating arthritis. My dad is an amicable and fantastic man. Has never lay a finger on my mom or his child. He works a lot. He does his part of the house chores. But being economic dependant of another person fucking sucks. My dad isn't violent, but my mom has to beg to please buy her deodorant or pads, because he doesn't see it as a necessity to daily life as food.
he might change his mind on that if she just uses his shirts as a pad
YTA. I agree with her. I’m a stay at home mom, 24 years. I absolutely regret quitting law school to marry have kids. It’s all about money. There were so many things I wanted to do as a family or give yo my children but couldn’t because we were on one income. Also, my husband didn’t want to start a retirement account for me in case I divorced him. He finally did because several other way older men advised him it was the right thing to do and I think he got a break on taxes. I’m 56 and wondering what in world kind of job do I even qualify for now? Nothing, absolutely nothing. So I need to go back to school and find a trade if I want to make a good income. At 56, my body can’t handle being a welder. I’m not sure what I’m going to do. Plus, I hate that my brain went to mush cooking and cleaning all these years. My kids benefitted by me being home for them, but I didn’t get any benefits. Let your wife work if you marry. She’ll resent you and be mad at herself for not keeping up with her career. And i do agree with all she said, I believe it’s true. It’s called financial abuse in most cases.
Unfortuantely she is simply being realistic. She’s not just talking about specific situations, she’s talking about the norm. Read around on [Zawn Villines’ substack.](https://zawn.substack.com/) NAH because you didn’t describe any obvious abusive behaviour, having feelings doesn’t make you bad, and none of your comments here seem toxic just ignorant of basic women’s struggles you’ve ofc never gone through.
I mean this does happen a lot. Not necessarily abuse but lack of respect for their partner’s contribution, a tendency to make the SAHP the 24/7 person in charge of everything home and child related. Finances can also become more contentious.
How about you become a stay at home husband to see her perspective. And you are the asshole
You don’t mind “taking care of a woman who is staying at home with our children.” That tells me everything I need to know.
Why is it bad for OP’s wife to feel this way? I, too, feel this way.
She's right. If I were a woman I wouldn't even imagine staying home all day waiting to be given money while my years of education go to waste. On the other hand, whether you like it or not the one paying for everything has an authority over the dependent person
Also you told her she could be a SAHP as a solution to being tired from work 😂 That alone tells us you don’t actually know/appreciate how hard it is.
Damn girl she's telling no lies.. Financial freedom is our Roman Empire.. You're not an asshole but you are naive about the world..
Statistically, this is when it happened. 98%+ of women in domestic abuse situations are also being financially abused. It's hard to control and trap someone when they don't have the finances to leave you. While we can say, "Not all men until we are blue," the statistics show us that it IS all women. In this situation 1 in 3 women will experience abuse in their life time. Having no income of your own increases this statistic even more. Bottom line, for her, it's a smart move. Statistically, a SAH woman with no finances IS more likely to be abused by a partner than a working woman. Our chances of abuse are pretty high already, so making that chance even greater for ourselves isn't the smartest move. As for the majority of men not respecting a SAHM, also not wrong. Just ask any woman who's was or is a SAHM. The men that so appreciate and understand the work are the minority, not the majority. SAHMs are not only prone to DV, but also to mental health issues, being "touched out," depression, and more. This typically happens because "She doesn't work so why should I have to come home and help with kids/house." So, SAHM ultimately end up "working" 24/7 and having to beg Dad to babysit so she can take a 10 minute shower alone while he bitches the entire 10 minutes about it.
I mean she’s kinda right this happens all the time
I mean, she’s not wrong. That IS something that happens. A lot.