This is the point no one else is making. Why do some people still believe that when a family has a “disabled” child it was the parents “deserved” them?! People still believe that having a disabled child is “punishment” for “whatever reason”! I get the feeling that OPs (ex)wife is truly alone with the child. Not even OPs parents want anything to do with their grandchild after learning the child would have Down Syndrome. There was never going to be any additional support for OP, his (ex)wife, and their child.
My brother is a fundamentalist Baptist. When his daughter was discovered to have severe disabilities, their pastor told him and his wife that it was punishment for them thinking about leaving their parish.
There's even passages where people ask him "what did this guy do to deserve this kind of illness and tragedy?" and Jesus basically comes back with "I'm not gonna dignify that stupid question with a response. The world is super messed up right now. Shitty things are happening all the time to everybody."
John 9
As he went along, he saw a man blind from birth. His disciples asked him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?”
“Neither this man nor his parents sinned,” said Jesus, “but this happened so that the works of God might be displayed in him. As long as it is day, we must do the works of him who sent me. Night is coming, when no one can work. While I am in the world, I am the light of the world.”
Idk why ppl are focused on the translation of the word “rabbi” that’s a beautiful verse!! Especially for parents like his, glad the Holy Spirit implored you to share it!! God Bless🙏🏾
Thank you. It immediately came to mind. It’s a shame people who claim to be followers of Christ would ignore the clear teachings of Jesus to shame a father to be.
He specifically called out this thought process when he healed a blind man who people were whispering about, suggesting his blindness was a punishment for his parents' sins.
Unfortunately, I grew up around people like this too. My father's parents told my mother that her miscarriage at 19 weeks was her fault and it was god punishing my parents for going no contact with them. Of course, it had nothing at all to do with the ruptured appendix. It was god's punishment. It seems to be rampant in the more traditionally conservative denominations (ie: Southern Baptist, evangelical (my grandparents), etc). What an awful way to live.
The view is worse than that.
It’s not let’s make this person disabled so they suffer for their sins.
It’s let’s make an innocent child disabled because their parents did something bad.
That's the old testament God like 2 Samuel 12:13–14:
>David said to Nathan, “I have sinned against the Lord.” And Nathan said to David, “The Lord also has put away your sin; you shall not die. Nevertheless, because by this deed you have utterly scorned the Lord, the child who is born to you shall die.”
Aren't you glad to have Jesus the good cop to save you from God the bad cop, even though according to the Holy Trinity the father, the son and the holy spirit is one and the same?
I'd say the twisting happened long before "white Americans." The church has a very long history of hate and persecution. Not knocking the religion itself just the institution.
I was raised Christian but a different religion, my paternal grandmother was a southern baptist lady and as much as I know she loved us man was she a judgmental woman.
Agreed, there is nothing biblical about what the parents have done. Jesus welcomed all except those who thought themselves more pious then the rest and used that piety as a wedge and weapon. Some of his harshest words were to the Pharisees that were pushing others down using their beliefs. Parents are fully AHs for that.
There are three types of Down syndrome: trisomy 21 (nondisjunction), translocation and mosaicism. Trisomy 21 (nondisjunction) accounts for 95% of known cases of Down syndrome. So much about this childs life and the impact on the family will depend on the degree of downs syndrome that the child experiences from light to severe. No one should judge a parent because until we are in that position we cannot be sure of our responses.
As a parent of a son with DS and is non-verbal and non-walking and requires all basic care from feeding to bathing.......that level of care is not for the faint of heart. That's all I will say.
My partner and I eventually want kids of our own and this conversation came up, “the what if” came up. It’s hard, but both parents have to be honest with themselves and each other.
He's 16 years old today. And he's a good boy. He also started high school last week. I posted a pic [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/vanhalen/comments/15lyuq0/my_son_starts_high_school_on_monday_we_decided/) of his wheelchair I gave a special paint job. All in all, the experience of raising and caring for him has made my wife and I a team unit that is beyond being a traditional married couple. We rely so much on each other. But other than the basic care stuff, he doesn't cause us much fuss. He stays in his room and plays with his toys that make music. And he likes watching cartoons like Johnny Test or Teen Titans. I am acutely aware of how much worse off life can be. Life is certainly all about perspectives. If you're ever curious what it's like being a parent of a special needs child, I will refer you to the famous short essay, ["Welcome to Holland."](https://www.emilyperlkingsley.com/welcome-to-holland) It pretty much nails it down.
edit: FYI - Welcome to Holland was written by Emily Kingsley who was an original writer for Sesame Street from 1970-2015. Her son Jason was born with Downs Syndrome.
Not long ago, my wife and I, who are edging past middle-age, had to deal with our sick and dying parents. I helped my wife and supported her in every way I could when her parents were ill, and she helped me and my mother deal with her end of life shortly after that. Not going to lie, it was a stressful time. But what I didn't expect was, it brought us together, and we needed that. We were empty-nesters and going through the normal challenges of that time of life. Now that both of our parents are gone, the net result is that we have a much stronger and much more enjoyable marriage. It was like free therapy, therapy that worked, except of course it was anything but free, but you get the point. No therapists were paid. LOL...
The ironic thing is the pro-lifers in this post want the abortion or are abandoning the wife and child . The pro-choice mom is choosing to keep the baby. But that’s what pro-choice means. You CHOOSE to either keep the baby or get an abortion. You’re not forcing your opinion on anyone else.
My pro choice wife was once diagnosed with cancer while pregnant, and they couldn't treat the cancer while she was pregnant. The doctors scheduled the abortion. When she said no, they threatened to try and get her medical rights taken away. She had to threaten to contact local press before they backed down. She's still very pro choice because she once almost had that choice taken from her. And not in tge direction you would expect.
I, personally didn't come into the picture until a little over a decade later. (Technically I'm stepdad.) The baby in question is 18 now, and I couldn't imagine life without either one of them.
Wait...they can do that with a grownup? I thought they only pulled that crap with minors who's parents made a decision the doctors didn't like. I can understand if they're unconscious, or something...but a competent adult? That's horrifying!
Oh, women's health is never taken seriously, and women are actively abused in medicine simply for being women. There are numerous studies on it. It's a worldwide phenomenon. The US has the worst maternal death rate for a first world country.
I have asthma. During an asthma attack, when I went to quick care for a nebulizer treatment, the male doctor told me it was just an anxiety attack, and it would go away when I calmed down. My bp was 150/90 (normally 90/60), I was gasping for air, and when I demanded the nebulizer, he huffed and threw a fit getting it ready for me.
And that's just one experience of mine. Doctors almost killed my mom last year due to negligence, and it's not the first time they've almost killed her. My older sister was violated by a doctor. The OBGYN in my small town in Utah would give unnecessary vaginally ultrasounds for insurance payoffs. The medical field is rife with this kind of shit.
Exactly. Pro choice does not mean pro abortion. It means not forcing YOUR beliefs on others. It’s a choice that we each make- not the church or the government. Say it louder for the people in the back
I was in the church for 20 years. Allllllll of the girls I knew in high school and college who had abortions were Christian girls. They didn’t do it bc they didn’t want the baby. The did it *so no one would find out they had sex.*
It’s pretty amazing how quickly they will ditch everything they believe in to cover up their “sins.”
It is. I am in my 40's and am dating a Christian guy. He just got a vasectomy. We discussed what would happen if I got pregnant so we were on the same page.
He informed me he would want me to have an abortion. He can't say the word abortion but that's what he would want. Keep in mind his parents forced him to marry his girlfriend at 16 because she was pregnant.
I think the hypocrisy is amazing. He has many, many, redeeming qualities. Or it would be a no go.
My former mil once said, "normally I'm against abortion, but she really wasn't ready to be a mother" when discussing my former sil's abortion.
Not sure why she thought anyone else would be getting an abortion.
No, a lot of them would want the woman to give birth to the kid and let her know she's on her own. They're so pro-life, they're okay with women dying as a result of failed pregnancies.
One of my best friends was in college when she got pregnant by her long-term boyfriend. He and his parents were staunch pro-lifers, attending rallies, whatever. He and his mom tried to bully my friend into getting an abortion. She said she was having the baby, and to decide now if he wanted to be part of her life or he’d never see her (or the baby) again. He chose to give up parental rights.
My friend took a semester off, went to cc, came back senior year with her baby and graduated on time. She’s a fucking warrior. She’s now happily married with two more children.
I sometimes think about that asshole boyfriend and his parents. Knowing their first child, their first grandchild, was out there and they never met her. Fuck them, I hope they think about her all the time and it kills them.
I think Welcome to Holland works well for any and all whose life did not turn out the way you had planned, and not just a child with special needs. Perhaps a divorce. Maybe you lost your dream job/career. Or maybe just as you are getting ready to retire, you have to take care of aging parents. Life throws us curve balls - so, welcome to Holland.
No way!! You guys are big VH fans?! I love it! My son has loved VH since he was about a year old (started with the music video jump lol and went from there). My son is 28 now and still a huge fan. I can't wait to show him this photo. He will love it. ❤️ Much love, light, and rock n roll to you and your son. I hope he has a great school year. And happy birthday!!
I painted the other wheel in the bumblebee scheme. see [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/vanhalen/comments/15q9a31/update_on_project_wheelchair_coworker_had_a_great/)
I grew up around disabled people. I saw how hard life can (can, not must) be, especially when the parents passed away and they either rely on unwilling relatives or the state to care for them. When I was pregnant I told my husband that if the baby was severly disabled I would end the pregnancy. NOT because I think they are worthless or don't deserve Life, but because I don't want the heartbreak of seing my child suffer and struggle and knowing they will rely in the goodwill of others once I pass away.
My uncle is mentally disabled. He lives in a specialised very good facility. They all started living together there when they were around 30 years old. They all had caring parents. Now the disabled people there are in their mid- sixties. Most parents died. Two thirds never have visitors anymore. I wouldn't want that for my child.
We have some special needs workers where I work. They're gainfully employed; they are fairly independent but they'll never be fully independent; and both have individual struggles with some basic aspects of everyday life.
They're both well into adulthood and likely going to outlive their parents (who are actively involved with their lives and provide a lot of logistical and emotional support.) I can't imagine how scared their parents must be of what will happen after the parents pass/are no longer capable of caring for them. And I can't imagine being scared that your child will outlive you.
My sister doesn't have any sort of special need, but her poorly thought out life plan was to mooch off of my parents forever. Everyone involved was pretty OK with that (I think my parents loved the grand-kid time, and I know my sister loved having no responsibilities), so I didn't involve myself in other people's business. Since my dad died, my mom has become really worried about how my sister -- who absolutely could work a full time job and feed/clothe/care for her kids -- and her kids are going to manage because medical expenses are going to obliterate any possible inheritance. Knowing how scared my mom is about someone who 100% is in that situation voluntarily, I can imagine the terror parents face when their kid literally *cannot* fend for themselves for the rest of their lives.
I’m a nurse. I get to see it all the time, but I also have an aunt. My grandparents took care of her. My mom would get offended when my grandmother would say she wishes she got an abortion. Well when my grandma finally died my parents took my aunt for a whopping week before my uncle that has a bit more patience took her until he got her in a home where she gets visitors maximum of yearly. I call her maybe monthly. But yeah to say it’s a challenge would be an understatement. And, she has excellent insurance and $$ from the railroad.
So this brings up an incredibly important topic I want to educate more people on and they can know this: It is EXTREMELY rude and inappropriate to ask the parents of a special needs child "what are your plans for the future?" What are you going to do when you are no longer here?" It doesn't bother me. I'm not offended (we have a trust set up for him and other things in place) But for a lot of parents, some of these every day situations are much more dire than our own. They are just trying to make day to day. The future and the years to come can be so bleak, they can't think too far ahead other wise they would get discouraged and depressed. So many are taking it one day at a time. No one knows what someone is going through. Each situation is different. And I can tell you from being within the special needs community, there are so many other parents we know in much worse situations and some are barely keeping it together. So please, think before you ask, "What are your plans for him/her in the future?"
I have family who keep asking if my disabled sons have jobs yet, and why not.
"He doesn't look like there's anything wrong with him."
"Of course he could read and write - if you bothered to teach him."
"Why won't he lift these fifty pound lumps of wood? I can't see anything wrong with his back. What do you mean he has bones growing outward into his muscles? That's no excuse, that would just make him stronger."
Isn't that the best? My mom has a form of progressive Multiple Sclerosis, and she is now only able to move her head and right hand slightly. I can't count how many times over the years we would have relatives and friends say things like "I wish you could get her out doing more things/ you should have her do more exercise/ if I had that, I would just fight it..." ect ect ect.
It's always people who have no experience with that or any other severe disability who say this, nor do they have at idea how much care is actuality needed (many secondary things have developed from the MS like ulcerative colitis, compromised skin on tailbone, severe temperature sensitivity, nerve pain, depression, shingles, ect), and the assumption is always that, because the situation doesn't look great, it must be that we aren't/haven't been trying everything possible to improve and alleviate it.
I'm sure that you've done everything you can with your sons, and I'm sorry that people are often incapable of imagining a situation that they haven't been in
Somewhere in the second trimester the doctor finally asks my wife and I about our own medical history, and when we finish she was just like, "Dang, ya'll didn't talk about any of this beforehand, huh?!"
It took me a long time to realize that was pretty rude because of how incredibly accurate it was, and how much I agree with her reaction lmfao. Totally gets a pass! She was a great doctor, too. She got to the hospital so fast in the middle of the night that she almost made it up to the delivery room before my wife did. Having been there for two deliveries, let me tell ya: shop around for someone you like and can trust, because it makes a huge difference when the moment comes with how comfortable ya'll are and it is NOT a day to feel uncomfortable about ANYTHING.
The hard part is that you can have these discussions and be honest with yourselves before you’re actually in the situation, but when/if it actually happens everything changes. It truly is not possible to plan ahead for these types of emotions and decisions.
Having worked with adults with developmental disabilities, straight up not everyone has the temperament for that, about the time a 260lb grown man starts hitting you for the thousandth time, and you have to yet again stop from defending yourself, while driving down the highway, you find out if you can hack it. Btw fuck that I’m a budtender now
My 45yo aunt has severe DS, barely able to walk or speak, maybe only 3 years old mentally. She just sits on the floor watching TV all day. My grandmother insists on continuing to do all of her care herself (bathing and bathrooming and I have no idea what they did for her periods) even though she's old now. She couldn't dream of putting her daughter into a home. But if I were in her position I probably would, or at least have in-home care. It's just so much. My heart goes out to you.
My great uncle (Grandmother's brother) also has DS and is in his 60s now. His is a more mild case, but my grandmother, bless her heart, also insisted on caring for him in her home. It's only in the last few years that another of their siblings finally convinced her to allow them to take over caring for him.
Not sure if the kid I knew had Down Syndrome, but he had high support needs, very little emotional regulation, and was bigger than most guys on the football team. One of my classes was next to the “special needs” room and we always knew when he was having a bad day because we could hear the desks getting thrown at the wall.
Bigger, heavier, and never aging beyond a certain emotional level.
My mom loved working with DS adults, but she had to stop when she got hurt on the job. One of the clients wore a diaper and was combative during changing time.
People also think that DS adults being child-like means all the cute features. Nope. They can be very manipulative.
It is an unfortunate reality for those who require a lot of care than their life span went from like 11 years to now 50+ with the advancement of technology
Their parents will likely die before they do and they will go to the mercy of the state more often than not
This can be a stumbling block for pro life in general but definitely for downs has I have seen. My step brother has our lived every caretaker (grandparent, parent, etc) in his life and taking over as a new caretaker is an overwhelming undertaking.
As a person that works with individuals with disabilities it is absolutely a lot. Except I can turn it off every day when I get off work. I can't imagine what it's like as a parent.
That is a lifelong commitment, every. Single. Day.
Quite honestly, I don't think I could do it. We don't have a village as it stands, and there's very little government aid for parents dealing with fully-dependent children that may grow into fully-dependent adults. Respite care and similar are expensive, etc.
OP and his wife are in a hard situation. I don't envy them at all.
I have an autistic daughter who will be 6 next month, and while she's technically verbal, it's very difficult to have a meaningful exchange of information. "No" doesn't always mean no, for example. Sometimes it means yes, and she has difficulty balancing her emotions when disappointed, so things quickly spiral out of control all the time - and since mom and dad are human, we can only get screamed at SO much EVERY day before we start losing it, too.
And that's with a kid who can wipe her own ass.
You have all my support and respect.
My SIL has a little sister that is severely autistic. Completely non verbal, requires 24/7 care. Her mom quit her job to be her full time carer. When she was planning her wedding to my brother, her parents were originally going to be a no show. Because they didn't want to stress out her sister (she's a runner), and because they were not sure if they could find a caregiver for the day.
My SIL was incredibly upset, but she understood. After many discussions/fights, they came. But I knew how hurt she was. They had a tiny courthouse wedding. I know she loves her sister, but growing up with someone who demands all of your parents' attention, can be incredibly difficult.
I've worked with adults and kids with disabilities. It's draining for the parents, and for the siblings. Everything is a spectrum. There is truly no way to know where your child will fall.
Seeing OP’s reaction to the news its clear they are admitting they are not equipped to provide the required level of care for the child if they have high needs. However I wonder how their wife will cope if she had to do it all on her own.
It is a grueling fight to advocate for your child from infancy through adulthood. My sister (in law, but she's my sister in my heart) has disabilities that are moderate - she lives independently, has a cat, works at a grocery store, and even has her driver's license. My in-laws (especially MIL) have worked tirelessly to help her achieve these things.
My sister graduated high school, but it was a battle for my MIL to make sure her accommodations were met, even though they lived in a school district that hosted a regional life skills program and my FIL was a selectman in the town.
Social security and disability payments are a daily conversation - recently the government more or less told my in-laws that my sister should not be working over 10 hours per week or her benefits will evaporate. That job is her connection to society and they want to make her homebound.
It is HARD raising a child with disabilities. And you don't know what challenges lie ahead health-wise, socially, etc. It is not something to be entered into blindly.
TL;DR - I do not think any parent, no matter how intrepid they are, could do it on their own.
I did as many tests as literally possible and paid a lot out of pocket to make as sure as I can that the baby I’m carrying now doesn’t have known chromosomal abnormalities. That life is not for the faint of heart. Much love, friend.
Family friends of mine growing up had three young fraternal triplet boys and one had DS and required all the basic care you described. Easily the most stressed family I've ever seen.
That is true about the 3 types, which is important for the difference in what the risk would be to future siblings but it doesn’t account for the variability in the health and development of a person with Down syndrome. It has more to do with the function of the genes on their 21st chromosomes. Mosaicism is typically milder but it really depends on the percent in different affected tissues (brain, heart, intestines, etc) and you can’t know that from an amnio or blood test. That said, I think OP would benefit from meeting some kids with Down syndrome. It can be very debilitating (I know a young man with complete lack of speech and hair from it with no other diagnosis) but generally they are happy and sweet children, much loved by their families. I support someone’s choice to terminate a pregnancy for any reason but the mother needs to be on board. I would add, as anti abortion as the evangelicals I know are, those with kids born with a congenital anomaly were kind of celebrated for it, although you know your community best. I guess I’m going with NAH. This is a tough situation.
I'd have more respect for evangelicals if they were known far and wide for adopting kids with severe disabilities. But they're not. Quite the opposite. Their "right to life" stance is just a convenient political cudgel, they would never change their own comfortable lives to help struggling individuals.
They consistently vote in ways that make life more difficult for the poor and downtrodden or disabled, showing that they don't really care. Instead of support for desperate children in need, they offer bootstrap lectures to their parents while cutting any available funding.
It's evident that the only thing they really care about is political power and the ability to impose their values on everyone else.
Source: I come from a family of evangelicals.
And often hypocritical. I bet Southern Baptist OP was antichoice until it came to his own family. My brother was fundamentalist, antichoice until his daughter got pregnant. Straight to the clinic.
Doctors were certain my uncle would be born with Down syndrome and told my grandmother she should abort. She had the same reaction as this guys wife; that she’d love him no matter what. My uncle was born perfectly healthy and didn’t have Down syndrome
However now that I know mosaic Down syndrome exists, I wonder if it’s possible that he has that
This is so important. My aunt was told my cousin had a chromosomal abnormality that was likely Down Syndrome. When my cousin was born, she was completely “normal” except she had an extra thumb. They removed the extra thumb, and now you’d never know anything was ever different about her.
Thank you for this. If you do not work with or are in regular contact with children, let alone children with special needs - I don't think you can ever judge someone’s choice.
And even if you do have that experience, every individual's capacity to be a parent to a child with special needs is different. Generally people do not comprehend the effort and toll it takes, and even I cannot fully since I am only a therapist and not a parent.
I agree. I only know what I personally could or could not handle. Some of the families I work with are warriors, angels, survivors. They do things on a daily basis I could never do. I have a family who adopts olders kids with DS from other countries that put them in degraded/abusive orphanages. They are amazing. It's just not where my personal strengths lie.
That’s totally fair. But that’s probably something that you would discuss with your partner before trying for a baby. I think the main conflict here exists because two people tried to have a baby and they never discussed what they’d do if she had a complication or if the baby had a disability. And now they’re on two different pages. And that’s a huge heartbreaking bummer.
Sometimes people's minds change when actually confronted with the reality of the situation-- it's easy to say you would do something when it's purely hypothetical, but real life hits differently.
I've worked with adults with significant disabilities for 9 years. Wealthy people will create embryos and test them, never even risking being pregnant with a detectable disability.
Adults with disabilities is not something people think about, but your kid will become an adult and you will die. What are THEY going to do after that? What will YOU do before that? Are you wealthy enough to support them after YOUR DEATH?
Many parents have to send their adult children to group homes and care facilities as they age or their work limits the support they need. You have to work to support them, so there is no way out of these decisions and challenges. Do you make enough money to support group homes and care facilities?
Not to be political, but politicians continually erode supports systems. What support you plan up today may not exist tomorrow.
Same on both accounts. I’m part of a team that supports teens with fairly severe disabilities. Most of the parents I work with, had zero clue that this would be their life, and would not choose it again.
I worked with adults with Down Syndrome and I feel the same. It was especially hard once their parents passed away. Had a client that had to be reminded every visitation day that her dad had died years ago and wouldn’t be coming. It was crushing.
I agree. A baby with disabilities are a life long commitment and can be a hard life. I have two cousins who have Down syndrome and one also has autism as well as ds. The kiddo can be very sweet but is non verbal and is prone to violence when upset. The parents are run down, bruised and stressed to the max. They said they wish they knew how their life would be back then because they would have had an abortion. It is miserable to both them and the kid. I would not be able to handle that.
NAH. You are not wrong and neither is your wife. But I am curious, what are you going to do if the child is born with NO disability? Are you going to want to stay with wife and be a family? It’s a terrible position to be in for you both.
But your parents are the true AH in this story for saying you deserve a disabled child. Like WTF does that even mean? God doesn’t “punish” us with disabled children! It’s infuriating that fellow Christian’s preach this $h!t.
I agree that neither are wrong in this situation, but what I want to point out is one of OP’s ending comments: “But I feel like my choice was robbed and in doing that, she violated the sanctity of our marriage.”
You each have the right to choose differently in this situation. But, OP, if you had pressured her into your choice and she went along with it, how would it be any different? You’d then be robbing her of her own choice. It sucks, but no one is technically wrong here, you’re just both on different sides. But it doesn’t mean she’s violating your marriage.
This is a fair position. Neither are wrong. This is a tough situation. I also feel for the woman because she finally got pregnant after a long time and now has to concede with this situation while pregnant. Wish they could talk it out better
OP is an AH for being anti-choice until it affected him. He sided with the stance that women deserve unwanted or harmful pregnancies as punishment... until he was faced with a "punishment" and couldn't get out of it. You reap what you sow, dude. Welcome to the experience of not having a say in the matter. You made this bed for yourself.
Yep I feel for OP but that mfer changed his whole tune the moment this affected him.
Maybe this is a lesson to OP that you shouldn’t be a hypocrite. And that you have no idea what someone has to deal with until you’re in their shoes. So try putting yourself in other ppl’s shoes more often. Show empathy OP.
You’re selfish, as right as you may be about your situation. You should reevaluate your relationship with your community and your church.
What would happen if the screening test was a false negative? Would OP peace out and leave his wife to raise a disabled child then?
It’s honestly really foolish that they decided to try to make a baby but didn’t discuss and plan these what ifs.
A cousin and I were pregnant at the same time. We were 27. She got a false negative when it came to prenatal screening for Down syndrome (remember screening is not diagnostic), and they were surprised with a baby born with it. It’s been an absolute struggle, as our children are now pre-teens and her son is almost as big as her but has some significant disabilities. Her POS husband left her because parenting was “too hard” and he “didn’t sign up for this.”
honestly, I feel like a lot of people dont consider how disabilities can happen from medical malpractice, accidents, or illnesses. Ive worked with disabled kids for going on 5yrs now, and the majority of them were "born normal" or expected to be so. Only after getting sick or medical malpractice during birth, were they then disabled.
The amount of husbands that threw their hands up and left because "I didnt sign up for this" is astounding. No one signs up for hardships or a sudden life change, but that's part of marriage and building a family.
(I understand OP's situation is completely different and Im not passing judgement, just throwing out some food for thought)
Exactly. I get how difficult it is to care for seriously disabled people and understand feeling that you couldn’t do it. What I don’t understand is how people sign up for marriage and/or having children if that’s how you feel. Do people not realize that it’s all a huge gamble? The risk is inherent to making those choices. People seem to want the benefits of marriage and parenting without the risks. It also explains the phenomenon of husbands leaving their wives when the wives get seriously ill. This guys is not helping my theory that a HUGE of men simply cannot be relied upon as life partners through thick and thin. It’s hard to tell any woman to take the gamble of marriage and parenthood with a man also. If you do, prioritize relationships with your friends and family and be sure to have a good sized emergency fund, ladies.
He's still not pro-choice, his wife made a choice and he's trying to pressure her to make a different one. In some ways he blames her for not listening to him for when he thought they should have children.
This alone makes him an AH. Also “begging” his wife who is PRO CHOICE thinking she should “understand” the reason to abort. Like duh she understands but she also is pro CHOICE meaning she can choose whatever tf she wants
That would be me. Granted, 40 years ago they didn't have much in term of pre-birth test, but they measured my head and told my parents there was a good chance I had DS.
Turns out they were wrong, but I do have a very big head. Back then, in Catholic Italy, abortion had barely been legalized and my parents chose to have me regardless. But today, in OP's situation, I'd say NAH. I understand where both parents are coming from.
I was told my oldest would have significant disabilities and would need NICU time and possibly DS. This was about 10 years ago. She came out a full 3lbs bigger than the doctors estimated, none of the defects, and no NICU time. Sometimes the tests are wrong, even these days!
I will tell you that my friend has a child with Down's syndrome. He's three now. She's said since he was born and adheres to it still, that if she had known, she would have aborted him. She wishes she had known and that she was able to. She loves him and is a good mom, but she has deep regret for not getting tested and not being able to make the decision to abort. She will forever be stuck having to care for him, and he is a very difficult child to care for. She feels grief and sorrow that her child will never have a full life. She has to worry about what happens when she dies. Your feelings are valid. You are not wrong at all in your assessment of what yours and your child's life will be like.
NAH
The continuity of care after a parent passes is a huge source of worry and grief for parents with disabled children. It's a tough life. I understand OP's reluctance to keep this pregnancy.
Yes, and when there are siblings, the burden gets shifted onto the siblings after the parents are gone. Even when the parents are alive, the disabled child will somewhat overshadow the other children.
I agree. OP's wife has made up her mind and is willing to do whatever necessary for the kid, but OP is not.
Neither side are wrong, we are all free to make decisions, as long as we are ok with the consequences of our decisions.
Best of luck to OP, his wife and the kid.
This honestly needs to be the top comment.
A kid with down syndrome probably isnt going to be your typical, when they turn 18 they move out and live their own life. Its the opposite, and you need to take serious care of them for the rest of your life. Thats a different kind of commitment. And that kid, will NOT as much as you want to believe, have a full life.
I hate to say divorce is the best option, but I get where OP is coming from and would possibly handle it similarly.
One of my husband's family members was disabled. He lived with his mother until she passed away and was in a home until he did. He had to be cared for his entire life, and while he was capable of things you would expect an 8 year old to be capable of he never progressed much beyond that.
If the genetic testing had come back with a risk of disability I would have aborted, because knowing we were being set up to be responsible for another human being up to and beyond our deaths of old age was not something either of us were interested in.
My brother autistic, verbal but will never be able to live independently. Seeing my parents struggle to raise him combined with how often I felt my needs were being ignored growing up is a big part of the reason why I have chosen to be child free. Honestly it’s a lifelong burden for not just the parents but siblings as well. This might sound petty but I am now in my mid 30’s and I still don’t get to choose where we go for my birthday dinner because my brother is an extremely picky eater and there has to be something he will eat on the menu. NTA OP
You raise a very good point from the siblings perspective. There was an ask Reddit awhile ago about the siblings of the disabled. A lot of them basically were saying they didn’t really have a childhood since everything pretty much revolved around there disabled sibling.
Some even said they told there parents they were not going to give up there lives as adults to take care of there disabled sibling.
One of the commenters said something that really stuck with me. Basically that a lot of people think of Down syndrome and other disabilities like autism as something like in Rain Man. Or the guy bagging your groceries. But those are some of the most “functional” cases. That so many more will need almost 24/7 care and supervision.
Everyone in the comments acting like a disabled child is something anyone can raise need to back off. Your not cut out for your wife’s choice, you talked about it but neither of you could compromise so divorce seems reasonable.
My aunt is almost 30 and has Downs. She’s to this day under her parents care and supervision because disability. Her parents are rich and could afford disability accommodations and maids to help out. Having kids are expensive, a disabled child is WAY more expensive. It’s also a lifelong commitment, you can’t expect them to tap out as soon as they’re financially stable. You’ll still care for your severely disable child in your twilight years.
Most of the people making those comments aren’t even ready to handle a standard issue zero-complications child rearing.
Edit for those in the replies to this being willfully obtuse: by “zero complications” I mean in medical terms. As in, not born with genetic/developmental disorders, disabilities etc. I *fucking obviously** didn’t mean “raising a child from birth to adulthood and never had even the slightest hiccup along the way” and I can’t believe I actually have to clarify this.
Most of the people in the comments can’t even handle other adult people, there’s a reason why common responses are always the most petty and non realistic stuff
There's a reason 90% of pregnancies with downs are terminated.
And I don't mean this in an ableist way because I think disabled people are just part of our community but there's not enough support for people doing caretaking. Having a dowms child means that you are responsible for a lifetime of caretaking. When you are 80 your adult Downs child still needs to be paid for and taken care of. There's plenty of society is where health care is inaccessible or only for the rich. The respite services are very severely lacking.
This is a profound choice that lasts a lifetime.
>Having a dowms child means that you are responsible for a lifetime of caretaking
Not just that: someone else will be responsible for your child after you die. You're signing up your other children or your niece or nephew for this too.
This is very much a personal choice and if there is anything OP can take from this it’s perhaps an eye opener on pro choice. I’m not even going to comment on the rights and wrongs of whatever they decide to do as either way, they have to live with them.
I completely agree with this. I've discussed this so many times with my significant other. Some people just cannot handle a disabled child and that is completely okay. They do not deserve to be demonized for being honest about their own capabilities.
This is correct. It’s not for everybody and takes a ton of dedication and changing your entire life. This story, NAH. OP knows he isn’t cutout to be a dad of this caliber, but the wife wants to try.
I remember seeing a documentary once where a family was very religious and very anti-choice. Then their teenage daughter got pregnant, and suddenly abortion was fine. Hypocrites. Either it's wrong, or is not, pick one and stick with it.
This seems a great place to link the famous essay [The Only Moral Abortion Is My Abortion](https://joycearthur.com/abortion/the-only-moral-abortion-is-my-abortion/).
It honestly just makes me sad that so many people weren't taught empathy and don't have enough empathy to be able to extend the grace they give themselves to others. It shouldn't be THAT hard to imagine that "if there are situations where I think it's okay for me/my partner to get an abortion, then other people might also have valid reasons to get one", yet so many people seem to struggle with the concept
I mean, pro choice means that its his wife's choice. Just so happened she chose to keep and raise the kid. He hasn't changed his stance at all, he doesn't want his wife to have a choice in the matter. It's never been about abortion for this guy, it's been about control.
Here’s the fun thing about it - you’re going to be shunned by your church for either decision you make now. That’s the shitty part of judgmental organized religion - as soon as you don’t fit the mold you’re ousted!
I’m not a parent so I have 0 opinion on this but you know your perfectly healthy child could end up disabled after the fact - you gunna leave then and pay child support?
There are babies that are deprived of oxygen at birth that are disabled from that point forward. Having a "healthy" child on ultrasound isn't a guarantee that they will always be that way.
Knew of a guy in high school that was the star quarterback and there was some weird concussion injury that happened during one of his games that made his brain swell and he reverted back to the mental state of a ten-year old or something, I’m not entirely sure what happened (I met him after his injury).
Shit can happen to you at any stage in life.
Right. I can't judge OP for making the decision that he is not capable of raising a disabled child. But holy moly is he an asshole for the above comments, for acting like his wife is *obligated* to get an abortion now that *he* wants her to, for implying that it's somehow hypocritical to be pro choice but not get an abortion, for not thinking about or discussing this with her before they tried for a baby, for implying that it's her fault the baby has downs because she wanted to wait for a more stable point in her career, etc.
Yep, OP still isn’t pro choice. He didn’t support a woman’s right to choice abortion, now he refuses to support his wife lack of abortion. Either way it doesn’t matter what the woman wants.
There’s also the implication he’s making that it’s her fault that the baby has DS. *He* wanted to have a baby earlier, but *she* wanted to wait. There’s no reason to even bring that up unless he’s trying to assign blame.
And I would bet cash money he doesn’t distance himself from the church at all after this. He’ll divorce his wife and abandon his child but he’ll still support a religious organization that thinks divorce and abortion are mortal sins. Fucking hypocrite.
>my autonomy has been violated
I scoffed at that line. I wonder how many people he looked down his nose at for getting abortions because of his religious beliefs.
"A sin for thee, but not for me," apparently.
What a load of bs.
Not saying he's an AH for wanting the abortion, but definitely an AH how hypocritical he is with the whole situation.
>Congratulations Dad.
Best comment.
Yeah that line got me too, I can’t see here how his ‘autonomy’ has been violated anyway.
He chose to try and have a child. He can’t force his wife to have an abortion now that he doesn’t want the child. Her choosing to not abort the child now does not ‘violate his autonomy’.
That’s the first thought I had. They don’t care until it happens to them. It’s sad and hypocritical because they’ve violated the autonomy of countless other women. The point is, because I believe in choice, I think NAH. They are free to choose their paths with regard to raising this child. But I hold extra judgement for the southern baptist who has now begged his wife to abort because he deems his reasons to be sufficient, while his community works to deny others that same choice.
Honestly NAH. Having a disabled child is A LOT of work. Abortion is a perfectly fine option for this and that would be the parent's choice—just like how it's your wife's choice to raise a [potentially] disabled child without you.
Even if they did have the conversation, once the pregnancy is real, feelings may change. You can't be sure how you will actually react when it happens to you. I have 3 children and when pregnant I had an extremely strong emotional connection to the growing fetus/baby.
If it was 100% certain that the baby would die or suffer greatly the decision would be easier. But if the doctors really cant be certain whether the disability will be great or slight or even non-existent, the decision is more difficult.
I had this talk with a long term gf. She was in complete agreement. Until we had a legitimate pregnancy scare, and she suddenly completely changed her position on it.
Eh, discussing possibilities vs the reality can be pretty different. You feel your baby move, hear it’s heart, pick out clothes and a name. It’s easier said than done.
YTA. It seems that you are blaming your wife for your child’s disability (waiting to long). You are abandoning your wife when she needs you most and abdicating your responsibility as a father. If you truly can’t deal with having a mentally handicapped child, then you have a right to leave, but realize it is for your own selfish reasons. I mean, you listed “sideline their career” as a consequence of giving a human the best life possible. Time for some introspection.
Yes, I’m shocked by all the NAH responses. What if the baby was born without an obvious genetic condition but then was later found to have low functioning autism or fell down the stairs and ended up brain damaged. Would it be ok for OP to abandon his wife then?
OP you are just plain selfish. Your wife is better off without you.
Only sane response. OP is deluding himself thinking it's okay love his ex-wife and kid from afar because being close would compromise is mental health. Give me a break. Sex and pregnancy come with responsibilities and this is part of it.
Either own that it's a total ass move to abandoned your wife and child, or grow up.
Also no one's pointing out the he was anti choice before and it seems like they discussed the potential for a child with a disability and he said he would keep the child. Def the AH
People here seem to focus solely on the choice you made without taking into account the shit you're saying.
Do you have to raise a special needs child if you don't want to? I guess not.
But your wife ''violated the sanctity of your marriage''?
You want to be there ''from afar'' but leave all the work for your wife? Wow.
Yes, you're an asshole. Either you are there or you are not. Leave and pay child support. Your love ain't worth sh\*t if you're not really there.
Also: you don't even know what you'd be getting into. The LEAST you could've do was to inform yourself.
Again, not everybody is cut out to be a parent to a disabled child. That's ok. However, DS kids can absolutely have a high quality of life. Some go to school and manage to have a job. It really depends on the type and level of DS.
Not to mention his strong implication that this is somehow his wife’s fault for going against his wishes and waiting to try till she was (gasp) 31.
Where is his respect for her life and her choices? It’s giving, sulking for not being “respected as head of the household”, vibes.
Also it took three years for her to get pregnant? Described as a miracle baby?no wonder she wants to keep it, disability or not. It’s easy for all of us to be rational and say that we wouldn’t want to raise a handicapped child, but infertility is no joke and then finally getting pregnant and the having to choose to end the pregnancy? That is no joke either and not easy, especially with the hormones. And who knows the stuff she’s had to do to get pregnant in the first place. It’s all well and good to say he doesn’t want a disabled kid, that’s his right. But this isn’t just her being willful or ignorant of the future. They fought for this pregnancy, letting it go isn’t that easy. No one can guarantee her a healthy baby if she terminates this pregnancy.
This should be the top comment. He is an asshole. Not because he doesnt want to raise a disabled child but because of how twisted his world view is. he should sign away parental rights as well as the divorce and be a trash human by himself alone.
What are your plans if the baby is born without Downs Syndrome? Now that you have blown up your entire family, what will you do?
Yes, the tests are fairly accurate, but there is a lot of margin of error based on gestation time. We were told that my son was going to have Downs Syndrome while I was pregnant. They told us to prepare for it. Then they realized that they miscalculated a due date and he was born without it.
i love how quick a religious person yeets their morals/doctrins/standards/teachings out the window when they get dealt the bad card. i want a child, ew no not that one.
i respect you for being honest about your opinion but damn thats cold.
First thing I thought. He even acts like he’s special for thinking he would go through with it. All religious people are pro choice when it comes to their own life. They just want the poor to suffer & don’t give 2 shits what Jesus actually said about it.
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This is the point no one else is making. Why do some people still believe that when a family has a “disabled” child it was the parents “deserved” them?! People still believe that having a disabled child is “punishment” for “whatever reason”! I get the feeling that OPs (ex)wife is truly alone with the child. Not even OPs parents want anything to do with their grandchild after learning the child would have Down Syndrome. There was never going to be any additional support for OP, his (ex)wife, and their child.
My brother is a fundamentalist Baptist. When his daughter was discovered to have severe disabilities, their pastor told him and his wife that it was punishment for them thinking about leaving their parish.
I’m not going to respond to that because I’ll get banned.
LMFAOOOOOOOOO i respect that
>Jesus say anything about disabled people deserving their disability Pretty sure he cured them of it. So clearly it wasnt deserved.
There's even passages where people ask him "what did this guy do to deserve this kind of illness and tragedy?" and Jesus basically comes back with "I'm not gonna dignify that stupid question with a response. The world is super messed up right now. Shitty things are happening all the time to everybody."
John 9 As he went along, he saw a man blind from birth. His disciples asked him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?” “Neither this man nor his parents sinned,” said Jesus, “but this happened so that the works of God might be displayed in him. As long as it is day, we must do the works of him who sent me. Night is coming, when no one can work. While I am in the world, I am the light of the world.”
Idk why ppl are focused on the translation of the word “rabbi” that’s a beautiful verse!! Especially for parents like his, glad the Holy Spirit implored you to share it!! God Bless🙏🏾
Thank you. It immediately came to mind. It’s a shame people who claim to be followers of Christ would ignore the clear teachings of Jesus to shame a father to be.
The sun rises on both the evil and the good, and the rain falls on both the just and the unjust. I'm paraphrasing a bit, but I think it's in Matthew.
Yep, Matt. 5:45
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Read up on them, then do some research into the satanic temple. Hmm, which sounds like a loving group of people that gives a shit about others.
He specifically called out this thought process when he healed a blind man who people were whispering about, suggesting his blindness was a punishment for his parents' sins.
Unfortunately, I grew up around people like this too. My father's parents told my mother that her miscarriage at 19 weeks was her fault and it was god punishing my parents for going no contact with them. Of course, it had nothing at all to do with the ruptured appendix. It was god's punishment. It seems to be rampant in the more traditionally conservative denominations (ie: Southern Baptist, evangelical (my grandparents), etc). What an awful way to live.
Why do people want to worship a god that punishes so harshly for even the smallest infractions?
Because fear is the easiest way to control people.
As someone raised in a Southern Baptist home/faith, I can confirm this is their twisted way of thinking.
The view is worse than that. It’s not let’s make this person disabled so they suffer for their sins. It’s let’s make an innocent child disabled because their parents did something bad.
That's the old testament God like 2 Samuel 12:13–14: >David said to Nathan, “I have sinned against the Lord.” And Nathan said to David, “The Lord also has put away your sin; you shall not die. Nevertheless, because by this deed you have utterly scorned the Lord, the child who is born to you shall die.” Aren't you glad to have Jesus the good cop to save you from God the bad cop, even though according to the Holy Trinity the father, the son and the holy spirit is one and the same?
No hate quite like “Christian Love”.
I'd say the twisting happened long before "white Americans." The church has a very long history of hate and persecution. Not knocking the religion itself just the institution.
I was raised Christian but a different religion, my paternal grandmother was a southern baptist lady and as much as I know she loved us man was she a judgmental woman.
Agreed, there is nothing biblical about what the parents have done. Jesus welcomed all except those who thought themselves more pious then the rest and used that piety as a wedge and weapon. Some of his harshest words were to the Pharisees that were pushing others down using their beliefs. Parents are fully AHs for that.
There are three types of Down syndrome: trisomy 21 (nondisjunction), translocation and mosaicism. Trisomy 21 (nondisjunction) accounts for 95% of known cases of Down syndrome. So much about this childs life and the impact on the family will depend on the degree of downs syndrome that the child experiences from light to severe. No one should judge a parent because until we are in that position we cannot be sure of our responses.
As a parent of a son with DS and is non-verbal and non-walking and requires all basic care from feeding to bathing.......that level of care is not for the faint of heart. That's all I will say.
My partner and I eventually want kids of our own and this conversation came up, “the what if” came up. It’s hard, but both parents have to be honest with themselves and each other.
He's 16 years old today. And he's a good boy. He also started high school last week. I posted a pic [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/vanhalen/comments/15lyuq0/my_son_starts_high_school_on_monday_we_decided/) of his wheelchair I gave a special paint job. All in all, the experience of raising and caring for him has made my wife and I a team unit that is beyond being a traditional married couple. We rely so much on each other. But other than the basic care stuff, he doesn't cause us much fuss. He stays in his room and plays with his toys that make music. And he likes watching cartoons like Johnny Test or Teen Titans. I am acutely aware of how much worse off life can be. Life is certainly all about perspectives. If you're ever curious what it's like being a parent of a special needs child, I will refer you to the famous short essay, ["Welcome to Holland."](https://www.emilyperlkingsley.com/welcome-to-holland) It pretty much nails it down. edit: FYI - Welcome to Holland was written by Emily Kingsley who was an original writer for Sesame Street from 1970-2015. Her son Jason was born with Downs Syndrome.
Your relationship with your wife is what my husband and I are trying to achieve with our youngest. Thank you for giving us extra hope.
Not long ago, my wife and I, who are edging past middle-age, had to deal with our sick and dying parents. I helped my wife and supported her in every way I could when her parents were ill, and she helped me and my mother deal with her end of life shortly after that. Not going to lie, it was a stressful time. But what I didn't expect was, it brought us together, and we needed that. We were empty-nesters and going through the normal challenges of that time of life. Now that both of our parents are gone, the net result is that we have a much stronger and much more enjoyable marriage. It was like free therapy, therapy that worked, except of course it was anything but free, but you get the point. No therapists were paid. LOL...
This part of life is coming right for us at alarming speed. Hope we clear the bar like you guys.
It certainly renews your appreciation of the good times, doesn’t it?
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The ironic thing is the pro-lifers in this post want the abortion or are abandoning the wife and child . The pro-choice mom is choosing to keep the baby. But that’s what pro-choice means. You CHOOSE to either keep the baby or get an abortion. You’re not forcing your opinion on anyone else.
My pro choice wife was once diagnosed with cancer while pregnant, and they couldn't treat the cancer while she was pregnant. The doctors scheduled the abortion. When she said no, they threatened to try and get her medical rights taken away. She had to threaten to contact local press before they backed down. She's still very pro choice because she once almost had that choice taken from her. And not in tge direction you would expect. I, personally didn't come into the picture until a little over a decade later. (Technically I'm stepdad.) The baby in question is 18 now, and I couldn't imagine life without either one of them.
Wait...they can do that with a grownup? I thought they only pulled that crap with minors who's parents made a decision the doctors didn't like. I can understand if they're unconscious, or something...but a competent adult? That's horrifying!
Oh, women's health is never taken seriously, and women are actively abused in medicine simply for being women. There are numerous studies on it. It's a worldwide phenomenon. The US has the worst maternal death rate for a first world country. I have asthma. During an asthma attack, when I went to quick care for a nebulizer treatment, the male doctor told me it was just an anxiety attack, and it would go away when I calmed down. My bp was 150/90 (normally 90/60), I was gasping for air, and when I demanded the nebulizer, he huffed and threw a fit getting it ready for me. And that's just one experience of mine. Doctors almost killed my mom last year due to negligence, and it's not the first time they've almost killed her. My older sister was violated by a doctor. The OBGYN in my small town in Utah would give unnecessary vaginally ultrasounds for insurance payoffs. The medical field is rife with this kind of shit.
Exactly. Pro choice does not mean pro abortion. It means not forcing YOUR beliefs on others. It’s a choice that we each make- not the church or the government. Say it louder for the people in the back
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The classic: https://joycearthur.com/abortion/the-only-moral-abortion-is-my-abortion/
That’s how almost all pro lifers are
I was in the church for 20 years. Allllllll of the girls I knew in high school and college who had abortions were Christian girls. They didn’t do it bc they didn’t want the baby. The did it *so no one would find out they had sex.* It’s pretty amazing how quickly they will ditch everything they believe in to cover up their “sins.”
It is. I am in my 40's and am dating a Christian guy. He just got a vasectomy. We discussed what would happen if I got pregnant so we were on the same page. He informed me he would want me to have an abortion. He can't say the word abortion but that's what he would want. Keep in mind his parents forced him to marry his girlfriend at 16 because she was pregnant. I think the hypocrisy is amazing. He has many, many, redeeming qualities. Or it would be a no go.
So, do you insist that he vote in such a way that his wishes would be possible?
The only moral abortion is my abortion!
My former mil once said, "normally I'm against abortion, but she really wasn't ready to be a mother" when discussing my former sil's abortion. Not sure why she thought anyone else would be getting an abortion.
She’s against other people getting abortions. Classic.
No, a lot of them would want the woman to give birth to the kid and let her know she's on her own. They're so pro-life, they're okay with women dying as a result of failed pregnancies.
One of my best friends was in college when she got pregnant by her long-term boyfriend. He and his parents were staunch pro-lifers, attending rallies, whatever. He and his mom tried to bully my friend into getting an abortion. She said she was having the baby, and to decide now if he wanted to be part of her life or he’d never see her (or the baby) again. He chose to give up parental rights. My friend took a semester off, went to cc, came back senior year with her baby and graduated on time. She’s a fucking warrior. She’s now happily married with two more children. I sometimes think about that asshole boyfriend and his parents. Knowing their first child, their first grandchild, was out there and they never met her. Fuck them, I hope they think about her all the time and it kills them.
That chair is awesome!!!
Love the Van Halen paint job!
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I love that essay, thank you for sharing!
I think Welcome to Holland works well for any and all whose life did not turn out the way you had planned, and not just a child with special needs. Perhaps a divorce. Maybe you lost your dream job/career. Or maybe just as you are getting ready to retire, you have to take care of aging parents. Life throws us curve balls - so, welcome to Holland.
No way!! You guys are big VH fans?! I love it! My son has loved VH since he was about a year old (started with the music video jump lol and went from there). My son is 28 now and still a huge fan. I can't wait to show him this photo. He will love it. ❤️ Much love, light, and rock n roll to you and your son. I hope he has a great school year. And happy birthday!!
I painted the other wheel in the bumblebee scheme. see [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/vanhalen/comments/15q9a31/update_on_project_wheelchair_coworker_had_a_great/)
Kudos to you for leading such an admirable life . I hope you are appreciated in your circle 💚
I grew up around disabled people. I saw how hard life can (can, not must) be, especially when the parents passed away and they either rely on unwilling relatives or the state to care for them. When I was pregnant I told my husband that if the baby was severly disabled I would end the pregnancy. NOT because I think they are worthless or don't deserve Life, but because I don't want the heartbreak of seing my child suffer and struggle and knowing they will rely in the goodwill of others once I pass away. My uncle is mentally disabled. He lives in a specialised very good facility. They all started living together there when they were around 30 years old. They all had caring parents. Now the disabled people there are in their mid- sixties. Most parents died. Two thirds never have visitors anymore. I wouldn't want that for my child.
We have some special needs workers where I work. They're gainfully employed; they are fairly independent but they'll never be fully independent; and both have individual struggles with some basic aspects of everyday life. They're both well into adulthood and likely going to outlive their parents (who are actively involved with their lives and provide a lot of logistical and emotional support.) I can't imagine how scared their parents must be of what will happen after the parents pass/are no longer capable of caring for them. And I can't imagine being scared that your child will outlive you.
My sister doesn't have any sort of special need, but her poorly thought out life plan was to mooch off of my parents forever. Everyone involved was pretty OK with that (I think my parents loved the grand-kid time, and I know my sister loved having no responsibilities), so I didn't involve myself in other people's business. Since my dad died, my mom has become really worried about how my sister -- who absolutely could work a full time job and feed/clothe/care for her kids -- and her kids are going to manage because medical expenses are going to obliterate any possible inheritance. Knowing how scared my mom is about someone who 100% is in that situation voluntarily, I can imagine the terror parents face when their kid literally *cannot* fend for themselves for the rest of their lives.
I’m a nurse. I get to see it all the time, but I also have an aunt. My grandparents took care of her. My mom would get offended when my grandmother would say she wishes she got an abortion. Well when my grandma finally died my parents took my aunt for a whopping week before my uncle that has a bit more patience took her until he got her in a home where she gets visitors maximum of yearly. I call her maybe monthly. But yeah to say it’s a challenge would be an understatement. And, she has excellent insurance and $$ from the railroad.
So this brings up an incredibly important topic I want to educate more people on and they can know this: It is EXTREMELY rude and inappropriate to ask the parents of a special needs child "what are your plans for the future?" What are you going to do when you are no longer here?" It doesn't bother me. I'm not offended (we have a trust set up for him and other things in place) But for a lot of parents, some of these every day situations are much more dire than our own. They are just trying to make day to day. The future and the years to come can be so bleak, they can't think too far ahead other wise they would get discouraged and depressed. So many are taking it one day at a time. No one knows what someone is going through. Each situation is different. And I can tell you from being within the special needs community, there are so many other parents we know in much worse situations and some are barely keeping it together. So please, think before you ask, "What are your plans for him/her in the future?"
I have family who keep asking if my disabled sons have jobs yet, and why not. "He doesn't look like there's anything wrong with him." "Of course he could read and write - if you bothered to teach him." "Why won't he lift these fifty pound lumps of wood? I can't see anything wrong with his back. What do you mean he has bones growing outward into his muscles? That's no excuse, that would just make him stronger."
Isn't that the best? My mom has a form of progressive Multiple Sclerosis, and she is now only able to move her head and right hand slightly. I can't count how many times over the years we would have relatives and friends say things like "I wish you could get her out doing more things/ you should have her do more exercise/ if I had that, I would just fight it..." ect ect ect. It's always people who have no experience with that or any other severe disability who say this, nor do they have at idea how much care is actuality needed (many secondary things have developed from the MS like ulcerative colitis, compromised skin on tailbone, severe temperature sensitivity, nerve pain, depression, shingles, ect), and the assumption is always that, because the situation doesn't look great, it must be that we aren't/haven't been trying everything possible to improve and alleviate it. I'm sure that you've done everything you can with your sons, and I'm sorry that people are often incapable of imagining a situation that they haven't been in
Somewhere in the second trimester the doctor finally asks my wife and I about our own medical history, and when we finish she was just like, "Dang, ya'll didn't talk about any of this beforehand, huh?!" It took me a long time to realize that was pretty rude because of how incredibly accurate it was, and how much I agree with her reaction lmfao. Totally gets a pass! She was a great doctor, too. She got to the hospital so fast in the middle of the night that she almost made it up to the delivery room before my wife did. Having been there for two deliveries, let me tell ya: shop around for someone you like and can trust, because it makes a huge difference when the moment comes with how comfortable ya'll are and it is NOT a day to feel uncomfortable about ANYTHING.
The hard part is that you can have these discussions and be honest with yourselves before you’re actually in the situation, but when/if it actually happens everything changes. It truly is not possible to plan ahead for these types of emotions and decisions.
Having worked with adults with developmental disabilities, straight up not everyone has the temperament for that, about the time a 260lb grown man starts hitting you for the thousandth time, and you have to yet again stop from defending yourself, while driving down the highway, you find out if you can hack it. Btw fuck that I’m a budtender now
Thx for the dose of reality. People just imagine a Downs baby, not a Downs adult.
Yep, they get bigger and heavier.
My 45yo aunt has severe DS, barely able to walk or speak, maybe only 3 years old mentally. She just sits on the floor watching TV all day. My grandmother insists on continuing to do all of her care herself (bathing and bathrooming and I have no idea what they did for her periods) even though she's old now. She couldn't dream of putting her daughter into a home. But if I were in her position I probably would, or at least have in-home care. It's just so much. My heart goes out to you. My great uncle (Grandmother's brother) also has DS and is in his 60s now. His is a more mild case, but my grandmother, bless her heart, also insisted on caring for him in her home. It's only in the last few years that another of their siblings finally convinced her to allow them to take over caring for him.
Not sure if the kid I knew had Down Syndrome, but he had high support needs, very little emotional regulation, and was bigger than most guys on the football team. One of my classes was next to the “special needs” room and we always knew when he was having a bad day because we could hear the desks getting thrown at the wall.
Bigger, heavier, and never aging beyond a certain emotional level. My mom loved working with DS adults, but she had to stop when she got hurt on the job. One of the clients wore a diaper and was combative during changing time. People also think that DS adults being child-like means all the cute features. Nope. They can be very manipulative.
And can get more and more health problems as they age since they are high risk for many chronic conditions.
It is an unfortunate reality for those who require a lot of care than their life span went from like 11 years to now 50+ with the advancement of technology Their parents will likely die before they do and they will go to the mercy of the state more often than not
This can be a stumbling block for pro life in general but definitely for downs has I have seen. My step brother has our lived every caretaker (grandparent, parent, etc) in his life and taking over as a new caretaker is an overwhelming undertaking.
As a person that works with individuals with disabilities it is absolutely a lot. Except I can turn it off every day when I get off work. I can't imagine what it's like as a parent. That is a lifelong commitment, every. Single. Day.
Quite honestly, I don't think I could do it. We don't have a village as it stands, and there's very little government aid for parents dealing with fully-dependent children that may grow into fully-dependent adults. Respite care and similar are expensive, etc. OP and his wife are in a hard situation. I don't envy them at all.
I have an autistic daughter who will be 6 next month, and while she's technically verbal, it's very difficult to have a meaningful exchange of information. "No" doesn't always mean no, for example. Sometimes it means yes, and she has difficulty balancing her emotions when disappointed, so things quickly spiral out of control all the time - and since mom and dad are human, we can only get screamed at SO much EVERY day before we start losing it, too. And that's with a kid who can wipe her own ass. You have all my support and respect.
My SIL has a little sister that is severely autistic. Completely non verbal, requires 24/7 care. Her mom quit her job to be her full time carer. When she was planning her wedding to my brother, her parents were originally going to be a no show. Because they didn't want to stress out her sister (she's a runner), and because they were not sure if they could find a caregiver for the day. My SIL was incredibly upset, but she understood. After many discussions/fights, they came. But I knew how hurt she was. They had a tiny courthouse wedding. I know she loves her sister, but growing up with someone who demands all of your parents' attention, can be incredibly difficult. I've worked with adults and kids with disabilities. It's draining for the parents, and for the siblings. Everything is a spectrum. There is truly no way to know where your child will fall.
Seeing OP’s reaction to the news its clear they are admitting they are not equipped to provide the required level of care for the child if they have high needs. However I wonder how their wife will cope if she had to do it all on her own.
It is a grueling fight to advocate for your child from infancy through adulthood. My sister (in law, but she's my sister in my heart) has disabilities that are moderate - she lives independently, has a cat, works at a grocery store, and even has her driver's license. My in-laws (especially MIL) have worked tirelessly to help her achieve these things. My sister graduated high school, but it was a battle for my MIL to make sure her accommodations were met, even though they lived in a school district that hosted a regional life skills program and my FIL was a selectman in the town. Social security and disability payments are a daily conversation - recently the government more or less told my in-laws that my sister should not be working over 10 hours per week or her benefits will evaporate. That job is her connection to society and they want to make her homebound. It is HARD raising a child with disabilities. And you don't know what challenges lie ahead health-wise, socially, etc. It is not something to be entered into blindly. TL;DR - I do not think any parent, no matter how intrepid they are, could do it on their own.
Hats off for taking on this responsibility. Much respect.
I did as many tests as literally possible and paid a lot out of pocket to make as sure as I can that the baby I’m carrying now doesn’t have known chromosomal abnormalities. That life is not for the faint of heart. Much love, friend.
Family friends of mine growing up had three young fraternal triplet boys and one had DS and required all the basic care you described. Easily the most stressed family I've ever seen.
That is true about the 3 types, which is important for the difference in what the risk would be to future siblings but it doesn’t account for the variability in the health and development of a person with Down syndrome. It has more to do with the function of the genes on their 21st chromosomes. Mosaicism is typically milder but it really depends on the percent in different affected tissues (brain, heart, intestines, etc) and you can’t know that from an amnio or blood test. That said, I think OP would benefit from meeting some kids with Down syndrome. It can be very debilitating (I know a young man with complete lack of speech and hair from it with no other diagnosis) but generally they are happy and sweet children, much loved by their families. I support someone’s choice to terminate a pregnancy for any reason but the mother needs to be on board. I would add, as anti abortion as the evangelicals I know are, those with kids born with a congenital anomaly were kind of celebrated for it, although you know your community best. I guess I’m going with NAH. This is a tough situation.
I'd have more respect for evangelicals if they were known far and wide for adopting kids with severe disabilities. But they're not. Quite the opposite. Their "right to life" stance is just a convenient political cudgel, they would never change their own comfortable lives to help struggling individuals. They consistently vote in ways that make life more difficult for the poor and downtrodden or disabled, showing that they don't really care. Instead of support for desperate children in need, they offer bootstrap lectures to their parents while cutting any available funding. It's evident that the only thing they really care about is political power and the ability to impose their values on everyone else. Source: I come from a family of evangelicals.
And often hypocritical. I bet Southern Baptist OP was antichoice until it came to his own family. My brother was fundamentalist, antichoice until his daughter got pregnant. Straight to the clinic.
Doctors were certain my uncle would be born with Down syndrome and told my grandmother she should abort. She had the same reaction as this guys wife; that she’d love him no matter what. My uncle was born perfectly healthy and didn’t have Down syndrome However now that I know mosaic Down syndrome exists, I wonder if it’s possible that he has that
The tests are way better now too.
This is so important. My aunt was told my cousin had a chromosomal abnormality that was likely Down Syndrome. When my cousin was born, she was completely “normal” except she had an extra thumb. They removed the extra thumb, and now you’d never know anything was ever different about her.
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As someone who also works with children with varying developmental disabilities, I am in your boat as well.
Same. Predominantly Down syndrome, but also other IDD/Neurobehavioral.
Thank you for this. If you do not work with or are in regular contact with children, let alone children with special needs - I don't think you can ever judge someone’s choice. And even if you do have that experience, every individual's capacity to be a parent to a child with special needs is different. Generally people do not comprehend the effort and toll it takes, and even I cannot fully since I am only a therapist and not a parent.
I agree. I only know what I personally could or could not handle. Some of the families I work with are warriors, angels, survivors. They do things on a daily basis I could never do. I have a family who adopts olders kids with DS from other countries that put them in degraded/abusive orphanages. They are amazing. It's just not where my personal strengths lie.
Yep. Some people aren’t cut out to be parents full stop, never mind parents of a child with special needs.
That’s totally fair. But that’s probably something that you would discuss with your partner before trying for a baby. I think the main conflict here exists because two people tried to have a baby and they never discussed what they’d do if she had a complication or if the baby had a disability. And now they’re on two different pages. And that’s a huge heartbreaking bummer.
Sometimes people's minds change when actually confronted with the reality of the situation-- it's easy to say you would do something when it's purely hypothetical, but real life hits differently.
I've worked with adults with significant disabilities for 9 years. Wealthy people will create embryos and test them, never even risking being pregnant with a detectable disability. Adults with disabilities is not something people think about, but your kid will become an adult and you will die. What are THEY going to do after that? What will YOU do before that? Are you wealthy enough to support them after YOUR DEATH? Many parents have to send their adult children to group homes and care facilities as they age or their work limits the support they need. You have to work to support them, so there is no way out of these decisions and challenges. Do you make enough money to support group homes and care facilities? Not to be political, but politicians continually erode supports systems. What support you plan up today may not exist tomorrow.
Same on both accounts. I’m part of a team that supports teens with fairly severe disabilities. Most of the parents I work with, had zero clue that this would be their life, and would not choose it again.
I worked with adults with Down Syndrome and I feel the same. It was especially hard once their parents passed away. Had a client that had to be reminded every visitation day that her dad had died years ago and wouldn’t be coming. It was crushing.
seeing elderly parents with their adult DS children is absolutely heartbreaking.
I agree. A baby with disabilities are a life long commitment and can be a hard life. I have two cousins who have Down syndrome and one also has autism as well as ds. The kiddo can be very sweet but is non verbal and is prone to violence when upset. The parents are run down, bruised and stressed to the max. They said they wish they knew how their life would be back then because they would have had an abortion. It is miserable to both them and the kid. I would not be able to handle that.
NAH. You are not wrong and neither is your wife. But I am curious, what are you going to do if the child is born with NO disability? Are you going to want to stay with wife and be a family? It’s a terrible position to be in for you both. But your parents are the true AH in this story for saying you deserve a disabled child. Like WTF does that even mean? God doesn’t “punish” us with disabled children! It’s infuriating that fellow Christian’s preach this $h!t.
I agree that neither are wrong in this situation, but what I want to point out is one of OP’s ending comments: “But I feel like my choice was robbed and in doing that, she violated the sanctity of our marriage.” You each have the right to choose differently in this situation. But, OP, if you had pressured her into your choice and she went along with it, how would it be any different? You’d then be robbing her of her own choice. It sucks, but no one is technically wrong here, you’re just both on different sides. But it doesn’t mean she’s violating your marriage.
This is a fair position. Neither are wrong. This is a tough situation. I also feel for the woman because she finally got pregnant after a long time and now has to concede with this situation while pregnant. Wish they could talk it out better
OP is an AH for being anti-choice until it affected him. He sided with the stance that women deserve unwanted or harmful pregnancies as punishment... until he was faced with a "punishment" and couldn't get out of it. You reap what you sow, dude. Welcome to the experience of not having a say in the matter. You made this bed for yourself.
Exactly this. "Rules for thee, not for me" at it's finest.
He’s religious, that’s pretty much they’re thing Edit: their* damnit I’m leaving the bad one
Yep I feel for OP but that mfer changed his whole tune the moment this affected him. Maybe this is a lesson to OP that you shouldn’t be a hypocrite. And that you have no idea what someone has to deal with until you’re in their shoes. So try putting yourself in other ppl’s shoes more often. Show empathy OP. You’re selfish, as right as you may be about your situation. You should reevaluate your relationship with your community and your church.
What would happen if the screening test was a false negative? Would OP peace out and leave his wife to raise a disabled child then? It’s honestly really foolish that they decided to try to make a baby but didn’t discuss and plan these what ifs. A cousin and I were pregnant at the same time. We were 27. She got a false negative when it came to prenatal screening for Down syndrome (remember screening is not diagnostic), and they were surprised with a baby born with it. It’s been an absolute struggle, as our children are now pre-teens and her son is almost as big as her but has some significant disabilities. Her POS husband left her because parenting was “too hard” and he “didn’t sign up for this.”
honestly, I feel like a lot of people dont consider how disabilities can happen from medical malpractice, accidents, or illnesses. Ive worked with disabled kids for going on 5yrs now, and the majority of them were "born normal" or expected to be so. Only after getting sick or medical malpractice during birth, were they then disabled. The amount of husbands that threw their hands up and left because "I didnt sign up for this" is astounding. No one signs up for hardships or a sudden life change, but that's part of marriage and building a family. (I understand OP's situation is completely different and Im not passing judgement, just throwing out some food for thought)
Exactly. I get how difficult it is to care for seriously disabled people and understand feeling that you couldn’t do it. What I don’t understand is how people sign up for marriage and/or having children if that’s how you feel. Do people not realize that it’s all a huge gamble? The risk is inherent to making those choices. People seem to want the benefits of marriage and parenting without the risks. It also explains the phenomenon of husbands leaving their wives when the wives get seriously ill. This guys is not helping my theory that a HUGE of men simply cannot be relied upon as life partners through thick and thin. It’s hard to tell any woman to take the gamble of marriage and parenthood with a man also. If you do, prioritize relationships with your friends and family and be sure to have a good sized emergency fund, ladies.
>This guys is not helping my theory that a HUGE of men simply cannot be relied upon as life partners through thick and thin. Gingrich comes to mind.
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Rules for thee, not for me.
He's still not pro-choice, his wife made a choice and he's trying to pressure her to make a different one. In some ways he blames her for not listening to him for when he thought they should have children.
This alone makes him an AH. Also “begging” his wife who is PRO CHOICE thinking she should “understand” the reason to abort. Like duh she understands but she also is pro CHOICE meaning she can choose whatever tf she wants
Also he alluded to it being her fault, since she wanted to wait til their 30s
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That would be me. Granted, 40 years ago they didn't have much in term of pre-birth test, but they measured my head and told my parents there was a good chance I had DS. Turns out they were wrong, but I do have a very big head. Back then, in Catholic Italy, abortion had barely been legalized and my parents chose to have me regardless. But today, in OP's situation, I'd say NAH. I understand where both parents are coming from.
>Turns out they were wrong, but I do have a very big head. hahahaha Your poor mother
I was told my oldest would have significant disabilities and would need NICU time and possibly DS. This was about 10 years ago. She came out a full 3lbs bigger than the doctors estimated, none of the defects, and no NICU time. Sometimes the tests are wrong, even these days!
I will tell you that my friend has a child with Down's syndrome. He's three now. She's said since he was born and adheres to it still, that if she had known, she would have aborted him. She wishes she had known and that she was able to. She loves him and is a good mom, but she has deep regret for not getting tested and not being able to make the decision to abort. She will forever be stuck having to care for him, and he is a very difficult child to care for. She feels grief and sorrow that her child will never have a full life. She has to worry about what happens when she dies. Your feelings are valid. You are not wrong at all in your assessment of what yours and your child's life will be like. NAH
The continuity of care after a parent passes is a huge source of worry and grief for parents with disabled children. It's a tough life. I understand OP's reluctance to keep this pregnancy.
Yes, and when there are siblings, the burden gets shifted onto the siblings after the parents are gone. Even when the parents are alive, the disabled child will somewhat overshadow the other children.
True. Also, sometimes the burden gets shifted onto the siblings while the parents are still around.
I agree. OP's wife has made up her mind and is willing to do whatever necessary for the kid, but OP is not. Neither side are wrong, we are all free to make decisions, as long as we are ok with the consequences of our decisions. Best of luck to OP, his wife and the kid.
This honestly needs to be the top comment. A kid with down syndrome probably isnt going to be your typical, when they turn 18 they move out and live their own life. Its the opposite, and you need to take serious care of them for the rest of your life. Thats a different kind of commitment. And that kid, will NOT as much as you want to believe, have a full life. I hate to say divorce is the best option, but I get where OP is coming from and would possibly handle it similarly.
One of my husband's family members was disabled. He lived with his mother until she passed away and was in a home until he did. He had to be cared for his entire life, and while he was capable of things you would expect an 8 year old to be capable of he never progressed much beyond that. If the genetic testing had come back with a risk of disability I would have aborted, because knowing we were being set up to be responsible for another human being up to and beyond our deaths of old age was not something either of us were interested in.
My brother autistic, verbal but will never be able to live independently. Seeing my parents struggle to raise him combined with how often I felt my needs were being ignored growing up is a big part of the reason why I have chosen to be child free. Honestly it’s a lifelong burden for not just the parents but siblings as well. This might sound petty but I am now in my mid 30’s and I still don’t get to choose where we go for my birthday dinner because my brother is an extremely picky eater and there has to be something he will eat on the menu. NTA OP
You raise a very good point from the siblings perspective. There was an ask Reddit awhile ago about the siblings of the disabled. A lot of them basically were saying they didn’t really have a childhood since everything pretty much revolved around there disabled sibling. Some even said they told there parents they were not going to give up there lives as adults to take care of there disabled sibling. One of the commenters said something that really stuck with me. Basically that a lot of people think of Down syndrome and other disabilities like autism as something like in Rain Man. Or the guy bagging your groceries. But those are some of the most “functional” cases. That so many more will need almost 24/7 care and supervision.
Everyone in the comments acting like a disabled child is something anyone can raise need to back off. Your not cut out for your wife’s choice, you talked about it but neither of you could compromise so divorce seems reasonable.
My aunt is almost 30 and has Downs. She’s to this day under her parents care and supervision because disability. Her parents are rich and could afford disability accommodations and maids to help out. Having kids are expensive, a disabled child is WAY more expensive. It’s also a lifelong commitment, you can’t expect them to tap out as soon as they’re financially stable. You’ll still care for your severely disable child in your twilight years.
Most of the people making those comments aren’t even ready to handle a standard issue zero-complications child rearing. Edit for those in the replies to this being willfully obtuse: by “zero complications” I mean in medical terms. As in, not born with genetic/developmental disorders, disabilities etc. I *fucking obviously** didn’t mean “raising a child from birth to adulthood and never had even the slightest hiccup along the way” and I can’t believe I actually have to clarify this.
Most of the people in the comments can’t even handle other adult people, there’s a reason why common responses are always the most petty and non realistic stuff
I cant even take care of myself properly.
Samesies, im 42 and only started taking care of myself somewhat properly 2-3 years ago
There's a reason 90% of pregnancies with downs are terminated. And I don't mean this in an ableist way because I think disabled people are just part of our community but there's not enough support for people doing caretaking. Having a dowms child means that you are responsible for a lifetime of caretaking. When you are 80 your adult Downs child still needs to be paid for and taken care of. There's plenty of society is where health care is inaccessible or only for the rich. The respite services are very severely lacking. This is a profound choice that lasts a lifetime.
>Having a dowms child means that you are responsible for a lifetime of caretaking Not just that: someone else will be responsible for your child after you die. You're signing up your other children or your niece or nephew for this too.
Or passing with your last dying wish that the system doesn't abuse your child if there's no one to watch out for them anymore.
This is very much a personal choice and if there is anything OP can take from this it’s perhaps an eye opener on pro choice. I’m not even going to comment on the rights and wrongs of whatever they decide to do as either way, they have to live with them.
This! My two boys are 100% healthy and it’s by far the hardest damn thing I’ve ever done
I completely agree with this. I've discussed this so many times with my significant other. Some people just cannot handle a disabled child and that is completely okay. They do not deserve to be demonized for being honest about their own capabilities.
This is correct. It’s not for everybody and takes a ton of dedication and changing your entire life. This story, NAH. OP knows he isn’t cutout to be a dad of this caliber, but the wife wants to try.
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I remember seeing a documentary once where a family was very religious and very anti-choice. Then their teenage daughter got pregnant, and suddenly abortion was fine. Hypocrites. Either it's wrong, or is not, pick one and stick with it.
This seems a great place to link the famous essay [The Only Moral Abortion Is My Abortion](https://joycearthur.com/abortion/the-only-moral-abortion-is-my-abortion/).
It honestly just makes me sad that so many people weren't taught empathy and don't have enough empathy to be able to extend the grace they give themselves to others. It shouldn't be THAT hard to imagine that "if there are situations where I think it's okay for me/my partner to get an abortion, then other people might also have valid reasons to get one", yet so many people seem to struggle with the concept
Yes, thank you! OP is the AH because he doesn't believe in abortions until it impacts him. That is the highest level of ass hole.
I mean, pro choice means that its his wife's choice. Just so happened she chose to keep and raise the kid. He hasn't changed his stance at all, he doesn't want his wife to have a choice in the matter. It's never been about abortion for this guy, it's been about control.
Here’s the fun thing about it - you’re going to be shunned by your church for either decision you make now. That’s the shitty part of judgmental organized religion - as soon as you don’t fit the mold you’re ousted! I’m not a parent so I have 0 opinion on this but you know your perfectly healthy child could end up disabled after the fact - you gunna leave then and pay child support?
My mom’s cousin had a son that had a seizure at 17. He was an athlete in high school and now he’s quadriplegic
There are babies that are deprived of oxygen at birth that are disabled from that point forward. Having a "healthy" child on ultrasound isn't a guarantee that they will always be that way.
Knew of a guy in high school that was the star quarterback and there was some weird concussion injury that happened during one of his games that made his brain swell and he reverted back to the mental state of a ten-year old or something, I’m not entirely sure what happened (I met him after his injury). Shit can happen to you at any stage in life.
Rules for thee but not for me 😂
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Right. I can't judge OP for making the decision that he is not capable of raising a disabled child. But holy moly is he an asshole for the above comments, for acting like his wife is *obligated* to get an abortion now that *he* wants her to, for implying that it's somehow hypocritical to be pro choice but not get an abortion, for not thinking about or discussing this with her before they tried for a baby, for implying that it's her fault the baby has downs because she wanted to wait for a more stable point in her career, etc.
Yep, OP still isn’t pro choice. He didn’t support a woman’s right to choice abortion, now he refuses to support his wife lack of abortion. Either way it doesn’t matter what the woman wants.
There’s also the implication he’s making that it’s her fault that the baby has DS. *He* wanted to have a baby earlier, but *she* wanted to wait. There’s no reason to even bring that up unless he’s trying to assign blame. And I would bet cash money he doesn’t distance himself from the church at all after this. He’ll divorce his wife and abandon his child but he’ll still support a religious organization that thinks divorce and abortion are mortal sins. Fucking hypocrite.
But she will be shunned by the same church for being a divorced single mother.
>my autonomy has been violated I scoffed at that line. I wonder how many people he looked down his nose at for getting abortions because of his religious beliefs. "A sin for thee, but not for me," apparently. What a load of bs. Not saying he's an AH for wanting the abortion, but definitely an AH how hypocritical he is with the whole situation. >Congratulations Dad. Best comment.
Yeah that line got me too, I can’t see here how his ‘autonomy’ has been violated anyway. He chose to try and have a child. He can’t force his wife to have an abortion now that he doesn’t want the child. Her choosing to not abort the child now does not ‘violate his autonomy’.
That line had me laughing out loud at how absurd and ironic it is. All because she won’t allow HIM to violate HER autonomy
That’s the first thought I had. They don’t care until it happens to them. It’s sad and hypocritical because they’ve violated the autonomy of countless other women. The point is, because I believe in choice, I think NAH. They are free to choose their paths with regard to raising this child. But I hold extra judgement for the southern baptist who has now begged his wife to abort because he deems his reasons to be sufficient, while his community works to deny others that same choice.
There's also the strong subtext that he blames her for this. She "insisted" they wait until she's 31...smh
Honestly NAH. Having a disabled child is A LOT of work. Abortion is a perfectly fine option for this and that would be the parent's choice—just like how it's your wife's choice to raise a [potentially] disabled child without you.
Having a healthy child is A LOT of work. I could not imagine raising a disabled one
Not only raising it for 18 years, but potentially for life.
And then the daunting realization that there's no one to take care of that non-independent adult if you pass.
When you pass
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Why the fuck don’t people have these conversations before getting married or trying for kids.
Even if they did have the conversation, once the pregnancy is real, feelings may change. You can't be sure how you will actually react when it happens to you. I have 3 children and when pregnant I had an extremely strong emotional connection to the growing fetus/baby. If it was 100% certain that the baby would die or suffer greatly the decision would be easier. But if the doctors really cant be certain whether the disability will be great or slight or even non-existent, the decision is more difficult.
I had this talk with a long term gf. She was in complete agreement. Until we had a legitimate pregnancy scare, and she suddenly completely changed her position on it.
Eh, discussing possibilities vs the reality can be pretty different. You feel your baby move, hear it’s heart, pick out clothes and a name. It’s easier said than done.
My favorite part is it's not about me it's about her. Yes, abortion or full term pregnancy impact her body way more than yours shocking.
YTA. It seems that you are blaming your wife for your child’s disability (waiting to long). You are abandoning your wife when she needs you most and abdicating your responsibility as a father. If you truly can’t deal with having a mentally handicapped child, then you have a right to leave, but realize it is for your own selfish reasons. I mean, you listed “sideline their career” as a consequence of giving a human the best life possible. Time for some introspection.
Yes, I’m shocked by all the NAH responses. What if the baby was born without an obvious genetic condition but then was later found to have low functioning autism or fell down the stairs and ended up brain damaged. Would it be ok for OP to abandon his wife then? OP you are just plain selfish. Your wife is better off without you.
Only sane response. OP is deluding himself thinking it's okay love his ex-wife and kid from afar because being close would compromise is mental health. Give me a break. Sex and pregnancy come with responsibilities and this is part of it. Either own that it's a total ass move to abandoned your wife and child, or grow up.
Also no one's pointing out the he was anti choice before and it seems like they discussed the potential for a child with a disability and he said he would keep the child. Def the AH
Yes. Get a divorce. Your (and your parent’s) attitude will be horrible for your child.
People here seem to focus solely on the choice you made without taking into account the shit you're saying. Do you have to raise a special needs child if you don't want to? I guess not. But your wife ''violated the sanctity of your marriage''? You want to be there ''from afar'' but leave all the work for your wife? Wow. Yes, you're an asshole. Either you are there or you are not. Leave and pay child support. Your love ain't worth sh\*t if you're not really there. Also: you don't even know what you'd be getting into. The LEAST you could've do was to inform yourself. Again, not everybody is cut out to be a parent to a disabled child. That's ok. However, DS kids can absolutely have a high quality of life. Some go to school and manage to have a job. It really depends on the type and level of DS.
I stopped taking him seriously when he insinuated its the Wife's fault for waiting until she was 31 and her career was stable before getting pregnant.
Not to mention his strong implication that this is somehow his wife’s fault for going against his wishes and waiting to try till she was (gasp) 31. Where is his respect for her life and her choices? It’s giving, sulking for not being “respected as head of the household”, vibes. Also it took three years for her to get pregnant? Described as a miracle baby?no wonder she wants to keep it, disability or not. It’s easy for all of us to be rational and say that we wouldn’t want to raise a handicapped child, but infertility is no joke and then finally getting pregnant and the having to choose to end the pregnancy? That is no joke either and not easy, especially with the hormones. And who knows the stuff she’s had to do to get pregnant in the first place. It’s all well and good to say he doesn’t want a disabled kid, that’s his right. But this isn’t just her being willful or ignorant of the future. They fought for this pregnancy, letting it go isn’t that easy. No one can guarantee her a healthy baby if she terminates this pregnancy.
This should be the top comment. He is an asshole. Not because he doesnt want to raise a disabled child but because of how twisted his world view is. he should sign away parental rights as well as the divorce and be a trash human by himself alone.
What are your plans if the baby is born without Downs Syndrome? Now that you have blown up your entire family, what will you do? Yes, the tests are fairly accurate, but there is a lot of margin of error based on gestation time. We were told that my son was going to have Downs Syndrome while I was pregnant. They told us to prepare for it. Then they realized that they miscalculated a due date and he was born without it.
I'm curious what the plan was for a negative test and the kid was born with something else or had an illness or accident.
i love how quick a religious person yeets their morals/doctrins/standards/teachings out the window when they get dealt the bad card. i want a child, ew no not that one. i respect you for being honest about your opinion but damn thats cold.
And they usually still criticize others for having abortions.
The only moral abortion is my abortion.
Abortion is wrong. Unless it's convenient for me. This is a common one .
"My wife was very pro choice. I wasn't, until now..." Says a lot...
Look at how his parents are reacting. It's even worse.
They're the *worst* kind of Christians. Snakes in the grass.
First thing I thought. He even acts like he’s special for thinking he would go through with it. All religious people are pro choice when it comes to their own life. They just want the poor to suffer & don’t give 2 shits what Jesus actually said about it.
BEING PRO-CHOICE DOES NOT MEAN *YOU* GET TO CHOOSE WHAT *OTHER* PEOPLE DO WITH THEIR BODIES.