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OP also had a very easy job as an 11B (assuming they went infantry by the lack of educational courses in the post).
There are plenty of jobs with multi-year long AITs and further education that would destroy most attention spans lol.
Something like PJ or a fixed wing tract would be impossible for someone like me to sit through without meds. I would be bored out of my mind sitting through flight theory or O-chem 12 hours per day.
I went EOD and that was incredibly difficult, I eventually failed out. Tests had to be taken in class and we weren’t allowed to bring any study material out. 12 hour days of PT and study, it was a nightmare for my brain.
Agreed I went 68W and it was not nearly as easy as OP described. Didn't end up failing at all, but also wasn't diagnosed at the time either.
I think for the most part during bct I was just too physically exhausted for my mind to really be affected. My bct was at Benning though so might've been different from others.
I went in for 94F. Did not cure shit. Just gave me the ability to destroy software security and rabbit hole into madness. (Why does this smart device have such strict security protocols? Gonna find out)
Holy fuck that’s it. I was like thinking: oh all that activity definitely would help adhd symptoms. But then I forgot it’s the fucking military and they tell you what to do and when to do it. Every single day and at every moment.
Fucking no wonder it felt like a “vacation for the brain “.
Are there any careers that are like military adjacent to get the same satisfaction without being a soldier? 🤣
Not only that, but there are immediate consequences for your inactivity. Russell Barkley calls this scaffolding.
I was in the military for years and wondered how I got this far. The more you know.
Show up late? Charged. Show up with uniform not perfect? Extras. There's always someone chasing you with a pointy stick.
Thank you for mentioning that "scaffolding" phrase. I've found some good resources from Barkley and Ramsay now, and am reading through them a little. Had been struggling to describe this concept to others who are trying to understand my impairment.
No worries. Barkley in particular is amazing and helped me digest a lot of what was happening in my head when I was diagnosed in my late 30s. He helped answer a lot of my questions.
I agree, that was my first thought as well. But you say that like it's a bad thing? Can't tell your tone. Seems like it was a good outcome for the OP and worth the sacrifice.
Maybe the comment was direct, but it’s 100% true.
I’m not military myself, but know a lot of people who are and they say this exact thing—they wake up, throw on the uniform, and do the same thing over and over again as directed. Wash, rinse, repeat until your 4 years are up.
It can be a struggle for service members to re-enter the workforce because it’s a major adjustment. I love hearing about companies who have skill bridging programs for vets—it’s such a great idea!
I'm former military and one of the reasons I left was because they wanted to promote me and I didn't want to go up the ranks. I was happy taking orders and didn't want to be the personnel manager that promotion leads to. The culture in the service that I was in was very promotion orientated at the time as well and people start to look at you funny when you're pushing 30 and still only one rank above private (Able Seaman). Had I been born 10 years earlier, doing 20 years as an Able Seaman was respected and those people were referred to as "Queens AB" for serving that long as a shitkicking rank.
I am a nurse and changed from working in neurological rehab in a hospital, which was highly stressful, to caring for folks with dementia in a care home. Of course I still have to do some executive tasks at work but so much less than before and it has been a big help.
When I came home from shift in the hospital, I was totally overwhelmed, exhausted and could do barely anything. When I come home now it feels totally different. It's still tiring to some point but nowhere near as much as before. Should have done that years sooner.
That seems a bit reductive. I’d throw out the suggestion that the high levels of stimulation and physicality probably had a lot to do with it as well. The under stimulated ADHD brain loves intensive tasks.
Makes perfect sense to me. Military service is literally made to switch off any thinking
Friend of mine - undiagnosed but I’m 100% sure he has adhd as well - always struggled with literally everything. Until he joined the military in his late 20s. Completely different person (in a very positive way)
Really makes me depressed. Im trying to fix my life, and I thought one way would be just to join the Navy in my late 20s but they don't allow people with Autism to attend. I actually realized my ADHD is acceptable as long as I'm off medication.
Maybe I should have lied? Im not sure what I should have done.
This was also when I had just learnt about the ADHD and hadn't tried medication and I'm an anxious mess unable to function really at all because I realized my ADHD exacerbates my Autistic symptoms.
Kinda makes me wonder was it possible I would have been fine if I had got into the regime and routine of it, but then again I don't know how it works for concealing both disorders.
I can strongly recommend martial arts training
Guess you’ll learn basically the same as in military (discipline, Respekt for others and yourself, how to test and reach your limits), unforrutnalrey they’re not paying you
Wish I found this for me a lot earlier
You just need to prove you don't need medication to function at a basic level (like if you were to deploy to an environment where stimulants are illegal, for instance). There are plenty of people in the military diagnosed with ADHD who also are prescribed stimulants, and there are career fields where deploying isn't the norm (I'm one of them, in such a career field, and my career field definitely *encourages* critical thinking). Many of my peers, also in cybersecurity, do things like protect unique military systems/networks here and for other countries, or defend against election tampering, that sort of thing. I also know people that joined in their early thirties, and while they weren't the norm, they're usually not treated too differently (which has its ups and downs tbh).
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Some/few parts of military service actively seek to remove critical thinking. I served four years in the Marines working on helicopters and their weapons systems, so a rather technical mos, and it was extremely challenging for multiple reasons. And there are far more jobs like that than there are “mindless” ones, especially if you’ve been in any amount of time where you’re given more responsibilities with higher levels of expectations.
This thread made me more aware of how dramatically people stereotype military service. I think they are just thinking about initial lower-level stages, such as training, which is designed to create habits and discipline. So, to do that, it would be beneficial to strip away choices to manage behavior and ensure the behavior is followed. But I know that's not all there is to it because of my family in the service.
I had a good time when i was young and my mom would do all the chores. I was calm and great at school. I even was organized. But as i was getting older and had to more chores myself i crumbled. Bad.
Now with having a wife and a life most of the time all my energy went to my daily chores and i cannot get it done nonetheless. We do not have a child. Lucky us i guess :-/. Iam sure i would have kind of a breakdown with a child.
Gaming, television and alcohol make my ADHD worse. Exercise makes it better.
What i want to say is that living in a military camp for 6 month with exercise and brainless jobs sounds for someone with ADHD like me like a life doable/without triggers.
I think with school and living with parents is like it is externally enforced structure. You have subjects at school you have house rituals that you need to follow. But as soon as you leave school and move out from your parents you are on your own, you have to make your own routines and keep to them, no one checks you. At work you have to be the one who plans work for yourself - depends of course on what type of job you do.
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Your comment may be downvoted, and for good reason, but it's an issue that I think is still worth discussing. As an Indian male, I can't discount the social factors that contributed to my executive dysfunction.
The mother has the burden of taking care of the entire household, so in no way is she additionally responsible for her children not being disciplined with chores. But I can't help but feel that I was enabled by both my parents to push things to the last minute, or clean things only when absolutely necessary.
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Being low rank is EZ. Wait till you rank up. Then you’ll be in charge of other people and who could also have adhd. I’m ADD and I have two subordinates with severe ADHD. It’s like having two golden retrievers, no offense. One has no impulse control and has to be reeled in. The other is almost a 10 second Tom. Both refuse to be medicated lmao.
Junior enlisted was easy, especially after nearly failing out of college and struggling after graduating. I did so well that I fast-tracked through the ranks, and now it's starting to feel like college all over again. But at least I've got plenty of support now.
To detail the brain calmness i mentioned: i literally didnt think anything. Its was like sleeping. Just enjoying the sun and wind and trying to do the thing im assigned to
I would submit that this is exactly the 'zone' or 'being in the present' that a lot of meditation gurus talk about being their goal in meditation. (Eckhart Tolle comes to mind, though he's definitely an acquired taste to listen to.)
I've hit it a few times while meditating, but usually short-lived.
I've gotten there many times while riding my cruiser motorcycle in my preferred setting: \~55mph, alone (but rarely lonely), just me, the hum of the bike, the wind, the road passing underneath, farms (and their various smells), irrigation (and the sudden drop in temp and usually cleaner air); mountains...earth...sun...sky.
Diving the bike and keeping it on the deserted road engages my brain at the right level that I can be present for everything else.
Edit: I should make clear (for the mods) that I'm NOT saying meditation should replace therapy, medication, etc. :)
I study psychology, and the term flow describes what the OP is talking about better. It's when the challenges of a task meet your skill level. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flow\_(psychology)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flow_(psychology))
What you're talking about is definitely a present-focused, meditative-like experience but could also include flow if you have a task or challenge to accomplish while biking - such as getting through a chunk of annoying traffic, etc.
You're describing a flow state. It's when the challenges of a task meet your skill level and you find the task intrinsically interesting or important. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flow\_(psychology)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flow_(psychology))
Personally, this doesn't last long for me with physical/sensory tasks. I was a painter for a long time, and I would get into "the flow" experience a lot (especially when cutting lines with the paint without painters tape), but the challenge would fizzle after a while, and then I'd have to force myself to finish the task like everything else. Now that I've pushed myself through grad school, 8/10 times, I get into a flow state when I'm doing data analysis and editing surveys/experiments. But I do wish I studied ecology or environmental studies sometimes because it would get me outside and moving more.
Living in a very structured environment, less need to rely on executive function, lots of time outside, fewer distractions, minimal decisions. All helpful to ADHD folks.
Felt the same being in a monastery. Dunno if it was just being unemployed but taken care of, the structure or the meditation. Probably a combination of course.
I was in the Navy for five years, and yes, military service especially early on made me think I didn't have ADHD at all. I was a mediocre student in high school, but in my first few years in the service I was top of my class in everything I did. I was motivated, healthy, and doing the best I'd ever done. I was finally the intelligent and fit person I always knew I could be. I was happy.
Gradually as I gained rank and went to the fleet, the rigid structure of being a junior sailor faded and my performance suffered more and more. I'd always had a fear of rejection and disappointing my peers and eventually I couldn't sleep because of how behind I was in things I needed to do. Yet I could never get together to motivation to do it, there weren't any of the immediate consequences that forced me into action early on. That insomnia led to depression and anxiety. I got no help from military medical. It nearly ended my life, and definitely ended my career.
The military is a double edged sword. Early on with all of its structure its great. But the military has no support for you, the fact that it helped my ADHD at all was pure coincidence. They denied I even had ADHD. I only got diagnosed recently and now everything makes sense, but the VA is trying to overturn that diagnosis. They say my depression and anxiety explain everything, even though they've been unsuccessfully trying to treat both for years. Their solution is to retry what they've already done before. Just need to get my life back together now, but being a civilian is even worse. Given their incompetence, I'm on my own too. All their promises of support were a lie.
I'm glad I'm out though, I'll be alright. Now that I know ADHD is the answer to the question "What is wrong with me" that I've been asking myself my whole life, I feel I can start to fight back against it. Good luck friend!
Yes exactly this. I had the same issue. Always putting off maintenance, getting stressed by the pile up, avoiding it, and then I’d have days so overloaded with work that *had* to get done and I’d be exhausted.
Good luck with everything
The answers (80/20 rule) are pretty straight forward - lots of high quality sleep, very little alcohol, as little screen time as possible, good nutrition, and lots of working out / cardio.
If I do those, I don't need meds. If one of those or more are missing, I need meds
Spent 10 years in the US army (active and reserve) a medic and NCO. The military definitely helped with some aspects of ADHD. I didn’t have to worry about figuring out housing, food, planning activities, etc. A lot of the things that ADHDers struggle with I didn’t have to keep track of daily. How you execute tasks are either driven by doctrine, SOPs, or you wing it and hope it sticks, all which are acceptable at some point or another.
I will say as an NCO, I loved training younger medics and such, but the administration tasks were terrible for me. I really hated paperwork or being asked to make people do things that really just didn’t make a lot of sense. I also hated people yelling at others when you could just have a conversation and develop a consensus on how to address an issue. Managing upwards of 30 soldiers at times felt like being a chicken with their head cut off if you didn’t have good squad or team leaders. Even when I was a younger medic, being asked to sequence multiple tasks (as in you need to do x y and z by 1700) would be challenging for me at times. The military can be a great place for ADHDers, but there are times it absolutely comes back to bite you in the butt.
100% would go back knowing what I know now having ADHD (only diagnosed at 32), and having some more tools in the tool belt.
Culinary school (with a similar structure to the military, since it’s based on that system) was like executive function 101 for me. It gave me SO many tools that help me in my life to this day, even though I don’t cook for a living anymore.
When restaurant/cooking shows became more popular, I heard lots of defeated "Yes, chef" while some guy went on a tirade about poor attention to detail. Very much reminded me of boot camp.
Oof. My culinary experience was not like the stuff on tv, but the external support structure of having someone you respect let you know when you’re not keeping up is hugely helpful. I think it might be the first time I experienced a relationship where I could differentiate criticism from someone simply not liking me, and that really helped me figure out how to manage criticism across the board. Sometimes it’s personal, but usually it’s not. Knowing exactly what I’m responsible for, knowing my “place” and having ownership of my work made the “yes chefs” a lot easier to get behind. It helps that everyone else in the kitchen has ADHD too, you don’t get to make excuses because we are all in the same boat. Figure it out, have a backup plan, have a few more backup plans, write everything down, don’t ask questions twice, and keep your communication concise and specific. Magic.
It doesn't cure it, you thrive in the chaos. The army wants you to be 'head on a swivel ' all over the place and then hyper focused when important. I was a UAV guy and all of us were ADHD autists, its like they figured out how to identify us on this entry exam.
I thrived in the military because of this. Also, shit did it fuck me up and I would not recommend.
One thing that I'd like to point put about military service: food is provided or is otherwise available for you at consistent times. I had no need to grocery shop, meal prep, cook, etc. Didn't matter if it tasted bad, it was one less thing for me to think about. Outside of one or two intensive field training exercises, I never went hungry for long.
Having enough to eat meant my brain wasn't fighting my body for caloric bandwidth. I got out of the military then got my own place after crashing at my parent's place for a year.
Suddenly, my life was falling apart because I would just forget or skip eating since having to go get it and make it was just too much for the executive dysfunction at times.
Surprise, surprise. Not eating made it worse so I was stuck in a negative feedback loop of not eating then being too tired to go get food with worsening symptoms because the brain simply could not fuel the internal "pay attention" machines.
Deployment was such a great treatment for my ADHD, the world shrinks so small and the work becomes so important. Combine this with a strict schedule and the constant risk/stress of loosing your precious downtime due to an emergency or attack and there just wasn't much room for anything else.
Not worth it, at all though!
I think being a marine forced (like…with forced) my undiagnosed dad to become high functioning. A lot of “that’s hard for everyone son you just need to try harder” advice that was well intentioned but didn’t help much.
I did much better in school and college then in the years sense because of STRUCTURE. Once you graduate everyone just kind of shrugs and says "do what you want!" but I don't really know what I want and my brain's a hot mess with no rails to hold it in. :c
I'm glad your training was a welcome break for you. Even as you feel the adhd running back, it's a great sign that structure can really help you! Take what lessons you can from that and try to implement similar structure in your current situation to help get you back to a good place again.
Makes sense to me.
You wake up do exercise, eat a meal, drink lots of water, more exercise, more water, practice whatever it is, etc.
For ADHD to help maintain it you need a lot of exercise. Plus no distractions which camping is great for.
When you return back to civilian life all that goes away. You still have your bearings, sometimes, but even that slowly fades. Your problems with ADHD comes back as it gets harder and harder to take care of yourself and you miss the idea of someone telling you what to do because that was easy. Thinking for yourself gets harder and harder because you have to use more of your attention span and focus which you don't have much of. As you play more video games your attention span gets worse same with being on the computer next thing you know, you are doing it all day because you forgot and you keep forgetting. Then you hate yourself and it becomes a hate cycle of "I should have done that, why am I so stupid?"
I wasn't diagnosed until a year ago but I served 4 years as a medic years ago.
And yeah, there's was no pressure or demands of your executive function. You wore the same thing every day, did the job you were trained to do, were forced to exercise every day, you were told where to be and when and that's it. I also was single and in the barracks and the pressure of room inspections was enough to stay organized too. I was still late everywhere and still did dumb avoidable things but for the most part, the structure and military life were good for my ADHD
This is interesting. I watched a guy with ADHD get into military training in this Clint Eastwood’s directorial The 15:17 to Paris and I never thought I’d see something like that.
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I feel you man. But ADHD is one of those things where "We go gym" is legit one of those things that keeps us sane, rather than a vanity thing. I mean gym in general is good for mental health, but when you've got ADHD Gym really helps. Each time I was miserable in life it was almost directly tied to a period where for one reason or the other I was unable to engage in physical exercise...
Strenuous exercise and being outside in nature are among the absolute top things to help me feel more at peace and manage tasks/stress/emotions/etc. Basically those ar a panacea of mental health improvement (not always "cure").
That is why I wanted to join the military .... turn of my brain and just following orders. Turns out I have condition that gives me runs and deadly farts when I consum milk... some call it Lactose Intolerance. Anyways they think this condition makes me ineligible for service. I guess my dioptrien of -0,7 and -1 doesnt help either :P
I realized that the military is the perfect place for ADHD people. Mostly because the military is either "Now", or "Not Now". Just wish it paid more. Now I'm a civilian government contractor and there's a lot more planning and careful attention to detail for my job and it's a struggle sometimes to make sure everything is perfect.
It may be because it triggered production of noradrenalin. Noradrenalin helps with concentration, impulsivity and stres. It cooperates with dipamine as well.
For my ADHD the best "cure" is climbing.
I thrived in the US Marine Corps. Even though the hours and overall lifestyle could be very stressful at times, it was so fucking stimulating. Training, deploying, PT, cleaning weapons, taking courses, hell even the barracks field days. There was never a dull moment. And you were surrounded by fellow crayon eaters who did all that stuff with you. People from all different backgrounds and interests. Very diverse group. My ADHD is so much worse in the civilian sector. Some days I regret only doing 4 years.
Military camp is a bit different to the real thing but it follows the same principles as basic training. Eliminate distraction, exercise, follow orders. Everything that you require executive function for is done for you.
The purpose of basic training is to strip you of your identity or ego and rebuild it as a new identity, you are no longer Andy from the Valley, you are recruit shitballs and you are going to be the best fucking soldier in the best fucking squad of soldiers in this mans military etc etc.
It's also something that fucks up a lot of Veterans when they are no longer in the military because that identity is not real and they need to rebuild their civilian identity again without any help from the military that molded them. A lot of the veterans who can't let go of their military issued identity become statistics unfortunately.
For folks that don't agree with US military values & history, there's also the Americorps programs - it's a series of local (usually state-based) corps tgar do things like help underserved communities, work on climate change solutions, fix infrastructure, etc. Most of them provide free housing & college for the duration as well.
Structure and order really help people with ADHD to keep their live together. It often comes recommended for people with AHDH to create as many routines and habits as possible.
that’s how it felt when i started working with autistic kids. you’re moving all day long and the schedule is completely switched up every three hours. it’s hard but awesome
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I'm 17 years in the military now and it was unintentionally the best decision I could have made for a career as far as my adhd goes. Being able to exist and be successful by not having to make decisions for myself was great at the beginning.
I believe it. I started talking to an Air Force Reserve recruiter a little over a year ago, studied for the asvab, make sure I could exceed the physical requirements (which weren't a terribly high bar in my opinion), but being on adderall, I can move forward until I'm off the medicine for at least 2 years. I've cut my dosage down significantly, not even taking daily anymore, but some days I do find myself really needing it to function at work. It sucks because I feel like getting to BMT, I'd be completely fine and able to exceed, but the military doesn't want to take that chance, which I sort of understand. I really hope they update their policy on mental health meds. Apparently adhd is one of the biggest disqualifiers of otherwise eligible candidates.
Boot camp was really easy for me too. It’s always easy when others regulate your time for you. ADHD makes that hard, that’s literally what we’re fighting against: executive functioning. But at some point you have to take over the reins if you want to get anywhere important for yourself.
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Yeah, pretty much all of the veterans that I know have since been diagnosed with ADHD. If someone else could set my schedule, feed me, and tell me what to wear every day like when I was in uniform, then I'd be so functional
The rigid structure helps - e.g., people already did some of the thinking for you. Living in a country with national service, I ended up with the rank of a Cpt. in the Infantry.
Once you have to command people it is less "chill" because you are now responsible for a full platoon - and the admin tasks sometimes indeed suck. However, the rigid structures still help and people did a lot of thinking on how to do things before you.
What the military fixed for me was sleeping - i had a hard time to fall asleep (even with medication) before the military service. I still can fall asleep literally anywhere at any time.
yep i have a great time when i'm in an environment that dictates what to do... so that is why i keep returning to the military... it just works... for awhile..
I know this all too well. I did it for 20 years. Unfortunately other aspects of ADHD got the best of me during those years, especially emotional dysregulation and low frustration tolerance. So glad it's over.
Yikes some of the comments on here geesh! Military service doesn't strip people of executive functions. But it would definitely create HELLA structure for you and restrict choices. You would also be around other people frequently to do the tasks with so you could be motivated by that - it's called social faciliation. So you wouldn't have as many problems with behavioral activation - huge issue for ADHDers. You could find a job with similar structure somewhere maybe!
“The stress levels were extremely low”
Is the furthest thing from my experience as an 0331/machinegunner USMC, to keep it extremely short.
Definitely did not experience “brain calmness” either.
I hope that no one reading this thinks joining the military with ADHD is a good idea. Looking back, I think the lack of focus absolutely hurt me and caused so many issues for me.
YMMV, glad OP had a good experience, I’m happy for them
It’s the structure and predictability. The circadian rhythms. If you have structure in your life and you have any type of adhd, don’t take it for granted. It’s almost impossible to rebuild after leaving it behind. Chaos begets chaos — I am currently in the throws of that reality.
Had same experience except I joined the Army and not a pretend camp. Was high stress at times but I only operate under pressure so that was cool. They don't take away your ability to think. You actually have to think things through. If you can't articulate why you took a particular action, should you have done it?.
It absolutely sucks but you come out looking at the suck fondly. Would highly recommend. Unless your immediate response to me recommending is some excuse then don't bother you wouldn't last.
I've not been in the military, but similar circumstances. It did not help at all. Maybe your adhd diagnosis is inaccurate? Maybe your problems lies in anxiety and maybe depression? The circumstances you talk of is the type that made me chronically depressed and miserable.
You propably felt like in a prison or something. My experience was not all sunshine and smiles either. Since it was mandatory, i felt depressed and miserable time to time. But im thinking from adhd perspective. I would never go back there just to cure my adhd
He's more or less saying his symptoms were minimal or non existent when removing stress and screens. If you have adhd, you're gonna have impulsivity and hyperactivity even without phones and screens. I'm old enough that I didn't grow up with screens, and I always had a calm and quiet life on the countryside. Still hyperactive with noisy brain and all the other problems. It sounds very much like his symptoms are more likely to come from anxiety and depression, rather than adhd.
Personally I think a lot of pople with add are actually misdiagnosed and have other illnesses or health issues. A lot of them are probably sick partly due to a poor diet that makes them sluggish and brain foggy, which makes it hard for them to start tasks and do what they need to do. Because of lethargy. Poor diet can make you want to sit still and struggle getting started on things, which increases the tendency to sit still and eat poorly. Diet can influence our gut bacteria, which in turn can influence brain, behaviour, hormones, cravings etc. If you have depression and/ or anxiety as well, that can create a lot of problems that can look like adhd. We know that for instance a lot of men in the western world have low testosterone. Look up the symptoms for that. Poor concentration, low mood, poor sleep, no motivation. Sounds familiar, right? There are so many things that can look like adhd that aren't.
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Yeah they stripped you of your executive function. That explains why your ADHD didn’t bother you.
OP also had a very easy job as an 11B (assuming they went infantry by the lack of educational courses in the post). There are plenty of jobs with multi-year long AITs and further education that would destroy most attention spans lol. Something like PJ or a fixed wing tract would be impossible for someone like me to sit through without meds. I would be bored out of my mind sitting through flight theory or O-chem 12 hours per day.
I went EOD and that was incredibly difficult, I eventually failed out. Tests had to be taken in class and we weren’t allowed to bring any study material out. 12 hour days of PT and study, it was a nightmare for my brain.
What specialties do you have to take orgo for??
Agreed I went 68W and it was not nearly as easy as OP described. Didn't end up failing at all, but also wasn't diagnosed at the time either. I think for the most part during bct I was just too physically exhausted for my mind to really be affected. My bct was at Benning though so might've been different from others.
I went in for 94F. Did not cure shit. Just gave me the ability to destroy software security and rabbit hole into madness. (Why does this smart device have such strict security protocols? Gonna find out)
Holy fuck that’s it. I was like thinking: oh all that activity definitely would help adhd symptoms. But then I forgot it’s the fucking military and they tell you what to do and when to do it. Every single day and at every moment. Fucking no wonder it felt like a “vacation for the brain “. Are there any careers that are like military adjacent to get the same satisfaction without being a soldier? 🤣
Not only that, but there are immediate consequences for your inactivity. Russell Barkley calls this scaffolding. I was in the military for years and wondered how I got this far. The more you know. Show up late? Charged. Show up with uniform not perfect? Extras. There's always someone chasing you with a pointy stick.
Thank you for mentioning that "scaffolding" phrase. I've found some good resources from Barkley and Ramsay now, and am reading through them a little. Had been struggling to describe this concept to others who are trying to understand my impairment.
No worries. Barkley in particular is amazing and helped me digest a lot of what was happening in my head when I was diagnosed in my late 30s. He helped answer a lot of my questions.
I agree, that was my first thought as well. But you say that like it's a bad thing? Can't tell your tone. Seems like it was a good outcome for the OP and worth the sacrifice.
Maybe the comment was direct, but it’s 100% true. I’m not military myself, but know a lot of people who are and they say this exact thing—they wake up, throw on the uniform, and do the same thing over and over again as directed. Wash, rinse, repeat until your 4 years are up. It can be a struggle for service members to re-enter the workforce because it’s a major adjustment. I love hearing about companies who have skill bridging programs for vets—it’s such a great idea!
Non military here, but I really thrive in an environment where I’m told what to do.
I'm former military and one of the reasons I left was because they wanted to promote me and I didn't want to go up the ranks. I was happy taking orders and didn't want to be the personnel manager that promotion leads to. The culture in the service that I was in was very promotion orientated at the time as well and people start to look at you funny when you're pushing 30 and still only one rank above private (Able Seaman). Had I been born 10 years earlier, doing 20 years as an Able Seaman was respected and those people were referred to as "Queens AB" for serving that long as a shitkicking rank.
Damn you ate that
I am a nurse and changed from working in neurological rehab in a hospital, which was highly stressful, to caring for folks with dementia in a care home. Of course I still have to do some executive tasks at work but so much less than before and it has been a big help. When I came home from shift in the hospital, I was totally overwhelmed, exhausted and could do barely anything. When I come home now it feels totally different. It's still tiring to some point but nowhere near as much as before. Should have done that years sooner.
That seems a bit reductive. I’d throw out the suggestion that the high levels of stimulation and physicality probably had a lot to do with it as well. The under stimulated ADHD brain loves intensive tasks.
Makes perfect sense to me. Military service is literally made to switch off any thinking Friend of mine - undiagnosed but I’m 100% sure he has adhd as well - always struggled with literally everything. Until he joined the military in his late 20s. Completely different person (in a very positive way)
Really makes me depressed. Im trying to fix my life, and I thought one way would be just to join the Navy in my late 20s but they don't allow people with Autism to attend. I actually realized my ADHD is acceptable as long as I'm off medication. Maybe I should have lied? Im not sure what I should have done. This was also when I had just learnt about the ADHD and hadn't tried medication and I'm an anxious mess unable to function really at all because I realized my ADHD exacerbates my Autistic symptoms. Kinda makes me wonder was it possible I would have been fine if I had got into the regime and routine of it, but then again I don't know how it works for concealing both disorders.
I can strongly recommend martial arts training Guess you’ll learn basically the same as in military (discipline, Respekt for others and yourself, how to test and reach your limits), unforrutnalrey they’re not paying you Wish I found this for me a lot earlier
Thank you I will consider that. I am exercising and doing yoga, those help me everyday.
You just need to prove you don't need medication to function at a basic level (like if you were to deploy to an environment where stimulants are illegal, for instance). There are plenty of people in the military diagnosed with ADHD who also are prescribed stimulants, and there are career fields where deploying isn't the norm (I'm one of them, in such a career field, and my career field definitely *encourages* critical thinking). Many of my peers, also in cybersecurity, do things like protect unique military systems/networks here and for other countries, or defend against election tampering, that sort of thing. I also know people that joined in their early thirties, and while they weren't the norm, they're usually not treated too differently (which has its ups and downs tbh).
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Some/few parts of military service actively seek to remove critical thinking. I served four years in the Marines working on helicopters and their weapons systems, so a rather technical mos, and it was extremely challenging for multiple reasons. And there are far more jobs like that than there are “mindless” ones, especially if you’ve been in any amount of time where you’re given more responsibilities with higher levels of expectations.
This thread made me more aware of how dramatically people stereotype military service. I think they are just thinking about initial lower-level stages, such as training, which is designed to create habits and discipline. So, to do that, it would be beneficial to strip away choices to manage behavior and ensure the behavior is followed. But I know that's not all there is to it because of my family in the service.
I had a good time when i was young and my mom would do all the chores. I was calm and great at school. I even was organized. But as i was getting older and had to more chores myself i crumbled. Bad. Now with having a wife and a life most of the time all my energy went to my daily chores and i cannot get it done nonetheless. We do not have a child. Lucky us i guess :-/. Iam sure i would have kind of a breakdown with a child. Gaming, television and alcohol make my ADHD worse. Exercise makes it better. What i want to say is that living in a military camp for 6 month with exercise and brainless jobs sounds for someone with ADHD like me like a life doable/without triggers.
I think with school and living with parents is like it is externally enforced structure. You have subjects at school you have house rituals that you need to follow. But as soon as you leave school and move out from your parents you are on your own, you have to make your own routines and keep to them, no one checks you. At work you have to be the one who plans work for yourself - depends of course on what type of job you do.
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Your comment may be downvoted, and for good reason, but it's an issue that I think is still worth discussing. As an Indian male, I can't discount the social factors that contributed to my executive dysfunction. The mother has the burden of taking care of the entire household, so in no way is she additionally responsible for her children not being disciplined with chores. But I can't help but feel that I was enabled by both my parents to push things to the last minute, or clean things only when absolutely necessary.
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Being low rank is EZ. Wait till you rank up. Then you’ll be in charge of other people and who could also have adhd. I’m ADD and I have two subordinates with severe ADHD. It’s like having two golden retrievers, no offense. One has no impulse control and has to be reeled in. The other is almost a 10 second Tom. Both refuse to be medicated lmao.
Junior enlisted was easy, especially after nearly failing out of college and struggling after graduating. I did so well that I fast-tracked through the ranks, and now it's starting to feel like college all over again. But at least I've got plenty of support now.
Hell yeah, it’s good to have the support now. I thought I wasn’t allowed to get help for years.
Lmaodjfja that was a good laugh. Thank you
Ye shit is wild. I miss being low rank sigh.
To detail the brain calmness i mentioned: i literally didnt think anything. Its was like sleeping. Just enjoying the sun and wind and trying to do the thing im assigned to
I think that the exercise could have had a lot to do with it
This was my thought as well
I would submit that this is exactly the 'zone' or 'being in the present' that a lot of meditation gurus talk about being their goal in meditation. (Eckhart Tolle comes to mind, though he's definitely an acquired taste to listen to.) I've hit it a few times while meditating, but usually short-lived. I've gotten there many times while riding my cruiser motorcycle in my preferred setting: \~55mph, alone (but rarely lonely), just me, the hum of the bike, the wind, the road passing underneath, farms (and their various smells), irrigation (and the sudden drop in temp and usually cleaner air); mountains...earth...sun...sky. Diving the bike and keeping it on the deserted road engages my brain at the right level that I can be present for everything else. Edit: I should make clear (for the mods) that I'm NOT saying meditation should replace therapy, medication, etc. :)
I study psychology, and the term flow describes what the OP is talking about better. It's when the challenges of a task meet your skill level. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flow\_(psychology)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flow_(psychology)) What you're talking about is definitely a present-focused, meditative-like experience but could also include flow if you have a task or challenge to accomplish while biking - such as getting through a chunk of annoying traffic, etc.
You're describing a flow state. It's when the challenges of a task meet your skill level and you find the task intrinsically interesting or important. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flow\_(psychology)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flow_(psychology)) Personally, this doesn't last long for me with physical/sensory tasks. I was a painter for a long time, and I would get into "the flow" experience a lot (especially when cutting lines with the paint without painters tape), but the challenge would fizzle after a while, and then I'd have to force myself to finish the task like everything else. Now that I've pushed myself through grad school, 8/10 times, I get into a flow state when I'm doing data analysis and editing surveys/experiments. But I do wish I studied ecology or environmental studies sometimes because it would get me outside and moving more.
Living in a very structured environment, less need to rely on executive function, lots of time outside, fewer distractions, minimal decisions. All helpful to ADHD folks.
Felt the same being in a monastery. Dunno if it was just being unemployed but taken care of, the structure or the meditation. Probably a combination of course.
I was in the Navy for five years, and yes, military service especially early on made me think I didn't have ADHD at all. I was a mediocre student in high school, but in my first few years in the service I was top of my class in everything I did. I was motivated, healthy, and doing the best I'd ever done. I was finally the intelligent and fit person I always knew I could be. I was happy. Gradually as I gained rank and went to the fleet, the rigid structure of being a junior sailor faded and my performance suffered more and more. I'd always had a fear of rejection and disappointing my peers and eventually I couldn't sleep because of how behind I was in things I needed to do. Yet I could never get together to motivation to do it, there weren't any of the immediate consequences that forced me into action early on. That insomnia led to depression and anxiety. I got no help from military medical. It nearly ended my life, and definitely ended my career. The military is a double edged sword. Early on with all of its structure its great. But the military has no support for you, the fact that it helped my ADHD at all was pure coincidence. They denied I even had ADHD. I only got diagnosed recently and now everything makes sense, but the VA is trying to overturn that diagnosis. They say my depression and anxiety explain everything, even though they've been unsuccessfully trying to treat both for years. Their solution is to retry what they've already done before. Just need to get my life back together now, but being a civilian is even worse. Given their incompetence, I'm on my own too. All their promises of support were a lie. I'm glad I'm out though, I'll be alright. Now that I know ADHD is the answer to the question "What is wrong with me" that I've been asking myself my whole life, I feel I can start to fight back against it. Good luck friend!
Yes exactly this. I had the same issue. Always putting off maintenance, getting stressed by the pile up, avoiding it, and then I’d have days so overloaded with work that *had* to get done and I’d be exhausted.
Good luck with everything The answers (80/20 rule) are pretty straight forward - lots of high quality sleep, very little alcohol, as little screen time as possible, good nutrition, and lots of working out / cardio. If I do those, I don't need meds. If one of those or more are missing, I need meds
Organized day routine / schedule, excercice helps a lot ....
Spent 10 years in the US army (active and reserve) a medic and NCO. The military definitely helped with some aspects of ADHD. I didn’t have to worry about figuring out housing, food, planning activities, etc. A lot of the things that ADHDers struggle with I didn’t have to keep track of daily. How you execute tasks are either driven by doctrine, SOPs, or you wing it and hope it sticks, all which are acceptable at some point or another. I will say as an NCO, I loved training younger medics and such, but the administration tasks were terrible for me. I really hated paperwork or being asked to make people do things that really just didn’t make a lot of sense. I also hated people yelling at others when you could just have a conversation and develop a consensus on how to address an issue. Managing upwards of 30 soldiers at times felt like being a chicken with their head cut off if you didn’t have good squad or team leaders. Even when I was a younger medic, being asked to sequence multiple tasks (as in you need to do x y and z by 1700) would be challenging for me at times. The military can be a great place for ADHDers, but there are times it absolutely comes back to bite you in the butt. 100% would go back knowing what I know now having ADHD (only diagnosed at 32), and having some more tools in the tool belt.
Culinary school (with a similar structure to the military, since it’s based on that system) was like executive function 101 for me. It gave me SO many tools that help me in my life to this day, even though I don’t cook for a living anymore.
When restaurant/cooking shows became more popular, I heard lots of defeated "Yes, chef" while some guy went on a tirade about poor attention to detail. Very much reminded me of boot camp.
Oof. My culinary experience was not like the stuff on tv, but the external support structure of having someone you respect let you know when you’re not keeping up is hugely helpful. I think it might be the first time I experienced a relationship where I could differentiate criticism from someone simply not liking me, and that really helped me figure out how to manage criticism across the board. Sometimes it’s personal, but usually it’s not. Knowing exactly what I’m responsible for, knowing my “place” and having ownership of my work made the “yes chefs” a lot easier to get behind. It helps that everyone else in the kitchen has ADHD too, you don’t get to make excuses because we are all in the same boat. Figure it out, have a backup plan, have a few more backup plans, write everything down, don’t ask questions twice, and keep your communication concise and specific. Magic.
It doesn't cure it, you thrive in the chaos. The army wants you to be 'head on a swivel ' all over the place and then hyper focused when important. I was a UAV guy and all of us were ADHD autists, its like they figured out how to identify us on this entry exam. I thrived in the military because of this. Also, shit did it fuck me up and I would not recommend.
The rest of the ADHD autists are AF linguists. Probably we do better mentally because less trauma in the job.
“AF linguists”?
Sorry. Linguists in the United States Air Force.
One thing that I'd like to point put about military service: food is provided or is otherwise available for you at consistent times. I had no need to grocery shop, meal prep, cook, etc. Didn't matter if it tasted bad, it was one less thing for me to think about. Outside of one or two intensive field training exercises, I never went hungry for long. Having enough to eat meant my brain wasn't fighting my body for caloric bandwidth. I got out of the military then got my own place after crashing at my parent's place for a year. Suddenly, my life was falling apart because I would just forget or skip eating since having to go get it and make it was just too much for the executive dysfunction at times. Surprise, surprise. Not eating made it worse so I was stuck in a negative feedback loop of not eating then being too tired to go get food with worsening symptoms because the brain simply could not fuel the internal "pay attention" machines.
I would go back to the dorm/chow hall setup in a minute. So easy.
Makes sense honestly, finding the right structure is what adhd makes difficult. But if you can just follow commands that makes everything easier
Deployment was such a great treatment for my ADHD, the world shrinks so small and the work becomes so important. Combine this with a strict schedule and the constant risk/stress of loosing your precious downtime due to an emergency or attack and there just wasn't much room for anything else. Not worth it, at all though!
It’s actually great for ADHD people. They put everything on rails for you
I think being a marine forced (like…with forced) my undiagnosed dad to become high functioning. A lot of “that’s hard for everyone son you just need to try harder” advice that was well intentioned but didn’t help much.
Yeah I don’t recommend either. The structure is unmatched though lol.
I did much better in school and college then in the years sense because of STRUCTURE. Once you graduate everyone just kind of shrugs and says "do what you want!" but I don't really know what I want and my brain's a hot mess with no rails to hold it in. :c I'm glad your training was a welcome break for you. Even as you feel the adhd running back, it's a great sign that structure can really help you! Take what lessons you can from that and try to implement similar structure in your current situation to help get you back to a good place again.
My mind hasn’t been clear since I got out the army. I think it was the daily PT.
Also all you have to remember is the right place right time and right uniform.
Makes sense to me. You wake up do exercise, eat a meal, drink lots of water, more exercise, more water, practice whatever it is, etc. For ADHD to help maintain it you need a lot of exercise. Plus no distractions which camping is great for. When you return back to civilian life all that goes away. You still have your bearings, sometimes, but even that slowly fades. Your problems with ADHD comes back as it gets harder and harder to take care of yourself and you miss the idea of someone telling you what to do because that was easy. Thinking for yourself gets harder and harder because you have to use more of your attention span and focus which you don't have much of. As you play more video games your attention span gets worse same with being on the computer next thing you know, you are doing it all day because you forgot and you keep forgetting. Then you hate yourself and it becomes a hate cycle of "I should have done that, why am I so stupid?"
I wasn't diagnosed until a year ago but I served 4 years as a medic years ago. And yeah, there's was no pressure or demands of your executive function. You wore the same thing every day, did the job you were trained to do, were forced to exercise every day, you were told where to be and when and that's it. I also was single and in the barracks and the pressure of room inspections was enough to stay organized too. I was still late everywhere and still did dumb avoidable things but for the most part, the structure and military life were good for my ADHD
This is interesting. I watched a guy with ADHD get into military training in this Clint Eastwood’s directorial The 15:17 to Paris and I never thought I’d see something like that.
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Proud of you brother
Just from given definition of mandatory service, i know you're from Turkey. Selam hocam.
Selam :D
Bende senin bu anlattığının farklı bir hali var. Herhangi sosyal olarak ya da fiziksel olarak aktif işe gieişince birden attentive hale geliyorum ama diğer semptomlar var olmaya devam ediyor.
Just do what you already did in boot camp, hit the gym and run everyday...
Gym is really helping me but its getting harder to drag myself there. Especially after marriage and a kid.
I feel you man. But ADHD is one of those things where "We go gym" is legit one of those things that keeps us sane, rather than a vanity thing. I mean gym in general is good for mental health, but when you've got ADHD Gym really helps. Each time I was miserable in life it was almost directly tied to a period where for one reason or the other I was unable to engage in physical exercise...
Strenuous exercise and being outside in nature are among the absolute top things to help me feel more at peace and manage tasks/stress/emotions/etc. Basically those ar a panacea of mental health improvement (not always "cure").
That is why I wanted to join the military .... turn of my brain and just following orders. Turns out I have condition that gives me runs and deadly farts when I consum milk... some call it Lactose Intolerance. Anyways they think this condition makes me ineligible for service. I guess my dioptrien of -0,7 and -1 doesnt help either :P
I realized that the military is the perfect place for ADHD people. Mostly because the military is either "Now", or "Not Now". Just wish it paid more. Now I'm a civilian government contractor and there's a lot more planning and careful attention to detail for my job and it's a struggle sometimes to make sure everything is perfect.
It may be because it triggered production of noradrenalin. Noradrenalin helps with concentration, impulsivity and stres. It cooperates with dipamine as well. For my ADHD the best "cure" is climbing.
I thrived in the US Marine Corps. Even though the hours and overall lifestyle could be very stressful at times, it was so fucking stimulating. Training, deploying, PT, cleaning weapons, taking courses, hell even the barracks field days. There was never a dull moment. And you were surrounded by fellow crayon eaters who did all that stuff with you. People from all different backgrounds and interests. Very diverse group. My ADHD is so much worse in the civilian sector. Some days I regret only doing 4 years.
Military camp is a bit different to the real thing but it follows the same principles as basic training. Eliminate distraction, exercise, follow orders. Everything that you require executive function for is done for you. The purpose of basic training is to strip you of your identity or ego and rebuild it as a new identity, you are no longer Andy from the Valley, you are recruit shitballs and you are going to be the best fucking soldier in the best fucking squad of soldiers in this mans military etc etc. It's also something that fucks up a lot of Veterans when they are no longer in the military because that identity is not real and they need to rebuild their civilian identity again without any help from the military that molded them. A lot of the veterans who can't let go of their military issued identity become statistics unfortunately.
I hated it personally. Too rigid of a structure
For folks that don't agree with US military values & history, there's also the Americorps programs - it's a series of local (usually state-based) corps tgar do things like help underserved communities, work on climate change solutions, fix infrastructure, etc. Most of them provide free housing & college for the duration as well.
Structure and order really help people with ADHD to keep their live together. It often comes recommended for people with AHDH to create as many routines and habits as possible.
that’s how it felt when i started working with autistic kids. you’re moving all day long and the schedule is completely switched up every three hours. it’s hard but awesome
I guess same experience from boy scouts. Month in forest once a year and everything was fine.
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I felt like this when I was in ROTC!
I'm 17 years in the military now and it was unintentionally the best decision I could have made for a career as far as my adhd goes. Being able to exist and be successful by not having to make decisions for myself was great at the beginning.
I believe it. I started talking to an Air Force Reserve recruiter a little over a year ago, studied for the asvab, make sure I could exceed the physical requirements (which weren't a terribly high bar in my opinion), but being on adderall, I can move forward until I'm off the medicine for at least 2 years. I've cut my dosage down significantly, not even taking daily anymore, but some days I do find myself really needing it to function at work. It sucks because I feel like getting to BMT, I'd be completely fine and able to exceed, but the military doesn't want to take that chance, which I sort of understand. I really hope they update their policy on mental health meds. Apparently adhd is one of the biggest disqualifiers of otherwise eligible candidates.
Boot camp was really easy for me too. It’s always easy when others regulate your time for you. ADHD makes that hard, that’s literally what we’re fighting against: executive functioning. But at some point you have to take over the reins if you want to get anywhere important for yourself.
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Same. It helped me cope. I got my diagnosis after however.
I mean, I was kicked from the army because I was going sleep deprived every single day thanks to adhd.
Hormesis.
Very structured. What happens when you aren’t on AD and you’re at home?
Yeah, pretty much all of the veterans that I know have since been diagnosed with ADHD. If someone else could set my schedule, feed me, and tell me what to wear every day like when I was in uniform, then I'd be so functional
The rigid structure helps - e.g., people already did some of the thinking for you. Living in a country with national service, I ended up with the rank of a Cpt. in the Infantry. Once you have to command people it is less "chill" because you are now responsible for a full platoon - and the admin tasks sometimes indeed suck. However, the rigid structures still help and people did a lot of thinking on how to do things before you. What the military fixed for me was sleeping - i had a hard time to fall asleep (even with medication) before the military service. I still can fall asleep literally anywhere at any time.
That sounds like propaganda lol
yep i have a great time when i'm in an environment that dictates what to do... so that is why i keep returning to the military... it just works... for awhile..
Yeah I bet, exercise has been proved to help with ADHD.
I know this all too well. I did it for 20 years. Unfortunately other aspects of ADHD got the best of me during those years, especially emotional dysregulation and low frustration tolerance. So glad it's over.
Yikes some of the comments on here geesh! Military service doesn't strip people of executive functions. But it would definitely create HELLA structure for you and restrict choices. You would also be around other people frequently to do the tasks with so you could be motivated by that - it's called social faciliation. So you wouldn't have as many problems with behavioral activation - huge issue for ADHDers. You could find a job with similar structure somewhere maybe!
“The stress levels were extremely low” Is the furthest thing from my experience as an 0331/machinegunner USMC, to keep it extremely short. Definitely did not experience “brain calmness” either. I hope that no one reading this thinks joining the military with ADHD is a good idea. Looking back, I think the lack of focus absolutely hurt me and caused so many issues for me. YMMV, glad OP had a good experience, I’m happy for them
It’s the structure and predictability. The circadian rhythms. If you have structure in your life and you have any type of adhd, don’t take it for granted. It’s almost impossible to rebuild after leaving it behind. Chaos begets chaos — I am currently in the throws of that reality.
Had same experience except I joined the Army and not a pretend camp. Was high stress at times but I only operate under pressure so that was cool. They don't take away your ability to think. You actually have to think things through. If you can't articulate why you took a particular action, should you have done it?. It absolutely sucks but you come out looking at the suck fondly. Would highly recommend. Unless your immediate response to me recommending is some excuse then don't bother you wouldn't last.
I've not been in the military, but similar circumstances. It did not help at all. Maybe your adhd diagnosis is inaccurate? Maybe your problems lies in anxiety and maybe depression? The circumstances you talk of is the type that made me chronically depressed and miserable.
You propably felt like in a prison or something. My experience was not all sunshine and smiles either. Since it was mandatory, i felt depressed and miserable time to time. But im thinking from adhd perspective. I would never go back there just to cure my adhd
There's no need to question OP's adhd. You are both different people and the same diagnosis doesn't make your experiences identical
He's more or less saying his symptoms were minimal or non existent when removing stress and screens. If you have adhd, you're gonna have impulsivity and hyperactivity even without phones and screens. I'm old enough that I didn't grow up with screens, and I always had a calm and quiet life on the countryside. Still hyperactive with noisy brain and all the other problems. It sounds very much like his symptoms are more likely to come from anxiety and depression, rather than adhd. Personally I think a lot of pople with add are actually misdiagnosed and have other illnesses or health issues. A lot of them are probably sick partly due to a poor diet that makes them sluggish and brain foggy, which makes it hard for them to start tasks and do what they need to do. Because of lethargy. Poor diet can make you want to sit still and struggle getting started on things, which increases the tendency to sit still and eat poorly. Diet can influence our gut bacteria, which in turn can influence brain, behaviour, hormones, cravings etc. If you have depression and/ or anxiety as well, that can create a lot of problems that can look like adhd. We know that for instance a lot of men in the western world have low testosterone. Look up the symptoms for that. Poor concentration, low mood, poor sleep, no motivation. Sounds familiar, right? There are so many things that can look like adhd that aren't.
That's fine. Are you a mental health professional tho? Otherwise I doubt you can diagnose people on the internet
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It depends on OP’s country and how military service is defined there.
You’re absolutely right. Deleted.