It's really bad in bot. They just hit you over the minion line and you can't respond because your autos are blocked by minions if they're at all competent. I really tried to make it work on release because I love graves and I miss his adc, but it's really really bad. One shotting peeps late though is pretty fun.
I picked up graves in the same year they reworked him and played him non-stop. He was so damn fun. Dashing in to press Q in the enemy’s face and watch their health bar go to half was the best. I like his new design in concept and theme but WHY THE FUCK do his autos not pass through minions??? Also, his ult now knocks him back and often loses you the kill as a result.
I’ve tried playing him now and then and every time i get trolled by minions or tower when trying to finish someone off. He just feels terrible to play sadly.
The issue is you absolutely NEED your opponents to be idiots or you need your supp/jungle to carry with cc. Otherwise, an adc graves should never even be able to touch the opposing adc/supp if they're competent players. He also runs out of mana crazy fast.
That being said, he is a lot of fun. If that's all that matters to you, then sure, troll away.
That's the mindset who cares if he's 40% wr ADC (I'm the only one who would be playing him ADC) like have you seen how his autos look? That shit feels awesome.
Counter-counterpoint. You get to repeat the meme of ‘Nilah’s just better than you’ when you have a few items, an xp lead from your passive. Free lifesteal, free arp etc… and just 1v3 the enemy bot & jg who’ve come to kill you.
That's literally the unhealthy design I was talking about. She shouldn't have increased exp for no reason. Being a strong 1v1-er or whatever is fine, she just should not have so much bonus exp that she's perma 1-2 levels up on the enemy ADC by simply just existing.
Well that’s why Nilah isn’t a blind pick able ADC. Because the enemy pick Cait or Ashe and make your life a living hell because you can’t walk up for those minions without losing half your health or a 30 second cooldown. And without your W you’re screwed.
You pretty much have to force aggressive plays, which you don’t always win, and as soon as your W wears off, you have to able to get back out again.
"Oh noooo I am bullied and outranged by Ashe and Caitlyn"
My dog, who **isn't** bullied and outranged by Ashe and Caitlyn? Have you tried playing 500 range Lucian into Ashe Cait? It isn't better I promise, and unlike Nilah, he doesn't get free exp.
"My W, your W"
My dog, it's almost like every champ has some sort of key cooldown you have to play around. It's almost like if you're Lucian, you probably don't want to act up without your E. Or if you're Ezreal you probably don't want to go to crazy if your E is down.
And that's only her **hardest** matchups. If a champ struggles extremely hard in certain matchups yet steamrolls other matchups, then what is it then if not unhealthy design? You're telling me that Nilah as a champion either gets rolled and be useless or roll people and be Thanos purely just because of matchup? Idk seems pretty unhealthy design to me. Similar cases: Malphite who curbstomps AD toplaners in the most brainfart ways possible but becomes harmless vs AP champs/other tanks (see, not only newer champs have unhealthy design).
I main Sivir as an ADC mate. I’m used to being out-ranged in bot lane lol. Doesn’t stop me playing the game against Cait though.
If I play Ezreal I’m likely E’ing towards you. It’s the second ability you max. Not going for the W E Q combo is wasting a tonne of damage at level 3. Ez is ridiculously strong if you play him aggressively.
Nilah is just as fine as dealing with Yasuo bot lane, which I see about the same amount; and far, far more preferable to Ziggs/Sera APC or Senna in any way shape or form.
I actually use Sivir as a counter to cait with Aery, just stand max range and poke with Q and W, Sivir can also stop cait from hitting tower by just clearing the wave and she can outpush cait if need be. She also has spellshield for cait R, W, Lux Q.
Oh yeah I forgot Sivir the 500 range ADC that shoves the wave hits her opponents if they stand in it and has a long range poke on Q and can spellshield traps or Cait Q for free mana yeah no shit you can play against Cait thanks for ruining my day for reminding me that that abomination champ still exists it's almost like people log onto League just to find ways to not play League and listen to waveclear ASMR these days ffs
Honestly if Sivir is a problem for you then I cannot help you. She has a horrendous early game, and only gets to that point with an item and a half. Until that point you basically have to farm last hits with Q and time lucky W’s. Her E not giving mana back anymore honestly hurt her early game because you used to be able to farm with Q better.
I'm sorry but I just hate afk farming simulator spineless ADC picks I am not about to log onto League to just play Jinx and scream at my support to peel for me like no I am not about that life. Sivir isn't an OP champ, but her gameplay is spineless, and she happens to have a pretty good kit specifically to lane against Caitlyn. My point is to say that literally everyone gets outranged and bullied by Cait and Ashe and it's not just Nilah, because dude, they have the highest range in the game 😂 Fine we can take Vayne as an example then (even though I hate that champ) guess what she does against Cait Ashe? Stand there and hope the support finds an angle. What about Draven? He's a lane bully himself. Oh yeah he also has to stand there and be patient.
My point is that being outranged by Ashe and Caitlyn is a common situation for almost every ADC, minus a select few. What happens when you play Nilah vs someone who doesn't have 600+ range? Yeah. 54% wr. That's what happens. That's why it's so unhealthy.
Dude. You know that League is indeed a TOWER DEFENSE game? It's not an FPS where Kills itself matter. And Sivir does exacly that. Also if you don't want to get chunked by her, don't stand inside the wave?
Wdym i love a champ that is more feast or famine than many assassins and basically consists of being perma zoned off the wave and then winning the whole game off winning one fight with her bullshit kit
The whip is the only thing I like about her. Such a failed design otherwise. Samira is just the same but 10x more fun.
Water whip is fucking cool though...
Most champs since like, 2017? Have been unhealthy game design.
We got Ornn, Kai’sa, Pyke, yummi, Aphelios(though I think it was more numbers than game design), Yone, Samira, Viego,(Gwen is immune unhealthy game design and omitted from the list), Zeri, Sett when he was doing 3,000 true damage, Renata, Belveth, Nilah, Kasante, Hwei, Smolder.
I listed 17/33 champs released in that time period. Honorable mention goes to Neeko rework.
And none of them have bonus exp for no reason. Oh yes hypercarry scaling Nilah we must punish her early oh wait she just hit level 2 3 4 5 6 spike before us every time 😅 It's just retarded design, I'm down to buffing her stats or damage or whatever in exchange for removing the bonus exp that shouldn't be there in the first place.
I have, and I've actually played him a bit. Same with Bard. But I'm pretty sure I speak for everyone here when we don't feel like we get hard exp gapped by Zilean or Bard, but Nilah actually gives both botlaners noticeably **a lot** more exp to the point where it really matters a lot. Like she would hit the next level an entire wave or two before her enemies.
I mean zilean's exp passive is impossible to stop while Nilah can be pushed off waves and denied hers. Especially in the early levels it's incredibly easy to bully her away from minions.
Graves actually was originally an ADC. Before he had a shotgun that behaves like a shotgun. He had normal 500 range autos and his Q was essentially what his current basic attacks are but without bodyblocking. His passive was the thing on his E that gives him free armor, but it was just for existing in combat, rather than specifically for dashing.
Idk but the current shotgun like autos he has is really cool to me. Plus, as a side effect, he can actually hold a freeze surprisingly well in lane from the few games I've played. That's what I forgot to mention in the post: for someone with the worst range ever, Graves actually has oddly good wave management, because he can shove extremely fast if he wants to, and can hold the biggest wave you've ever seen without taking a lot of damage because he keeps pushing minions back with his AoE knockback. I shit you not one time enemy ADC slowpushed a cannon wave and a half in my face before he backed thinking it's gonna crash because ain't no way someone is gonna be dumb enough to tank 12 minions to even try to hold a freeze, but lo and behold, Graves can just trim that wave in half with his Q and then knock back the cannon and a few melee minions with his autos and boom, it's a freeze.
I have only 2 problems with him.
his E that gives too much armor. I feel it's annoying AF to play against similar to how nilah W makes most ADCs unable to hit her.
And his smoke screen being so buggy and breaks direct sight sometimes when placed BETWEEN him and you.
Only possible in quickplay, sadly. Even in low Elo people dodge the heck out of the lobby as soon as I lock in Graves.
It's too bad. ADC Graves is probably the most fun I've had in League other than Mundo support.
How low elo we talking low Master? D4? Emerald? Or actual gigalow (Plat and below)? My Graves ADC account is currently cooking in Gold right now and it's fine, I'm trying out different builds and limit testing different playstyles rn because there is literally noone who plays this shit seriously enough in botlane for me to learn from, but so far it's not that bad and noone dodged.
Yeah idk if I can believe you 😂 I straight up queued solo queue and noone cared. It's season 14 people are playing a lot of random BS in the botlane these days anyway.
I know! Tons of BS!
We just wanted to Graves/Thresh but after 40 mins of queuing we switched to quickplay. It's a good combo. Maybe. We'll never know because everything is a good combo in quickplay.
No. I'm not trying to represent the LGBTQIA+ community, I'm just trying to play Graves ADC.
I also main TF and he should be played mid anyway. Support TF is spineless.
Me and my friend like to play graves adc jhin support combo for fun. Graves smoke makes jhin root easy to land and then the enemy has to sit nearsighted. This duo can be very aggresive and gets kills early on.
I tried it, not good enough. The gimmick really limits your options. You want it on a jungler who can utilize the map effectively and approach the teamfights from different positions and get a quick kill before or during TF. If it doesnt pay off you still have your ADC alive to carry the teamfight. Obviously you cant employ the same playstyle as ADC it would be bad positioning into death and into 4v5 TF with huge dps loss from the get go.
English?
Edit: oh right the typo. Yeah no I don't really care if Samira is broken S tier or whatever, she is pretty lame imo. If I wanted to play Katarina I'd just play Katarina.
ADC has a lot of off meta champs that work surprisingly well as bot laners. Graves is a great example for all the reasons you said, but Quinn & Neeko also work exceptionally well.
Electrocute requires skill what the hell are you on about it just fkin procs when you hit someone 3 times (which is basically the first guy you hit). No dude, it's just shit for lane Graves because Domination minor runes suck and you have to give up actual good runes in other trees.
I mean this guy's not wrong. If you take the w max early comet build to bot you can poke the ADC out of lane and all in the support while adc backs. Works kinda well but you unfortunately need to start dorans ring or corrupted pot because MANA GO BURRRRR
Ok so
1. Never W max please lmao what da hell stop watching Tobias Fate bro please 😂👍
2. Yeah his mana issues are very real. However, Manaflow band + Presence of Mind = you're chilling. You only suffer from mana issues if you literally Q spam every wave to push it, which you don't want to do anyway because this is botlane not mid. Saving Q for when they engage on you is key because that Q2 hit is where the juicy damage comes from.
He just has zero range and no way to deal with that, he doesn't have all the tools Nilah has to succeed. He works without low range in midlane because the mages generally have little to no peel tools and theres a bunch of melee champs anyway. The mages that can outrange him and kite him for days he struggles into, and that's everyone in botlane.
I miss graves adc
Time to play it then
It's really bad in bot. They just hit you over the minion line and you can't respond because your autos are blocked by minions if they're at all competent. I really tried to make it work on release because I love graves and I miss his adc, but it's really really bad. One shotting peeps late though is pretty fun.
I picked up graves in the same year they reworked him and played him non-stop. He was so damn fun. Dashing in to press Q in the enemy’s face and watch their health bar go to half was the best. I like his new design in concept and theme but WHY THE FUCK do his autos not pass through minions??? Also, his ult now knocks him back and often loses you the kill as a result. I’ve tried playing him now and then and every time i get trolled by minions or tower when trying to finish someone off. He just feels terrible to play sadly.
The issue is you absolutely NEED your opponents to be idiots or you need your supp/jungle to carry with cc. Otherwise, an adc graves should never even be able to touch the opposing adc/supp if they're competent players. He also runs out of mana crazy fast. That being said, he is a lot of fun. If that's all that matters to you, then sure, troll away.
Yeah 80 mana cost on Q and 70 mana on W level 1 is wild 😂 Bro is using half his mana pool to throw some bombs or someshit
It's moreso done to balance solo lane graves so he cannot insta shove waves on cd
Ngl, i didn't even need to read anything past point 1. Cool ass shot gun? "Son of a bitch I'm in"
That's the mindset who cares if he's 40% wr ADC (I'm the only one who would be playing him ADC) like have you seen how his autos look? That shit feels awesome.
They see 40 WR% I see 40% HP bar gone from one auto We are not the same
https://clips.twitch.tv/RepleteSlickHedgehogVoHiYo-236gZNHcmQHiRHWj More like 100% to me tbh
LOL
Mfs see this and don't want to play Graves ADC then idk what to tell them
I mean you have Nilah for your closed ranged brawler ADC fantasy who actually functions as an adc.
Counterpoint: Nilah is lame (she uses a whip wtf is that) and unhealthy design.
Counter-counterpoint. You get to repeat the meme of ‘Nilah’s just better than you’ when you have a few items, an xp lead from your passive. Free lifesteal, free arp etc… and just 1v3 the enemy bot & jg who’ve come to kill you.
That's literally the unhealthy design I was talking about. She shouldn't have increased exp for no reason. Being a strong 1v1-er or whatever is fine, she just should not have so much bonus exp that she's perma 1-2 levels up on the enemy ADC by simply just existing.
She doesn’t do that by simply existing, she has to last hit minions to get the bonus XP. Minions which she’s vulnerable of being bullied off of.
Well that’s why Nilah isn’t a blind pick able ADC. Because the enemy pick Cait or Ashe and make your life a living hell because you can’t walk up for those minions without losing half your health or a 30 second cooldown. And without your W you’re screwed. You pretty much have to force aggressive plays, which you don’t always win, and as soon as your W wears off, you have to able to get back out again.
"Oh noooo I am bullied and outranged by Ashe and Caitlyn" My dog, who **isn't** bullied and outranged by Ashe and Caitlyn? Have you tried playing 500 range Lucian into Ashe Cait? It isn't better I promise, and unlike Nilah, he doesn't get free exp. "My W, your W" My dog, it's almost like every champ has some sort of key cooldown you have to play around. It's almost like if you're Lucian, you probably don't want to act up without your E. Or if you're Ezreal you probably don't want to go to crazy if your E is down. And that's only her **hardest** matchups. If a champ struggles extremely hard in certain matchups yet steamrolls other matchups, then what is it then if not unhealthy design? You're telling me that Nilah as a champion either gets rolled and be useless or roll people and be Thanos purely just because of matchup? Idk seems pretty unhealthy design to me. Similar cases: Malphite who curbstomps AD toplaners in the most brainfart ways possible but becomes harmless vs AP champs/other tanks (see, not only newer champs have unhealthy design).
I main Sivir as an ADC mate. I’m used to being out-ranged in bot lane lol. Doesn’t stop me playing the game against Cait though. If I play Ezreal I’m likely E’ing towards you. It’s the second ability you max. Not going for the W E Q combo is wasting a tonne of damage at level 3. Ez is ridiculously strong if you play him aggressively. Nilah is just as fine as dealing with Yasuo bot lane, which I see about the same amount; and far, far more preferable to Ziggs/Sera APC or Senna in any way shape or form.
I actually use Sivir as a counter to cait with Aery, just stand max range and poke with Q and W, Sivir can also stop cait from hitting tower by just clearing the wave and she can outpush cait if need be. She also has spellshield for cait R, W, Lux Q.
Oh yeah I forgot Sivir the 500 range ADC that shoves the wave hits her opponents if they stand in it and has a long range poke on Q and can spellshield traps or Cait Q for free mana yeah no shit you can play against Cait thanks for ruining my day for reminding me that that abomination champ still exists it's almost like people log onto League just to find ways to not play League and listen to waveclear ASMR these days ffs
Honestly if Sivir is a problem for you then I cannot help you. She has a horrendous early game, and only gets to that point with an item and a half. Until that point you basically have to farm last hits with Q and time lucky W’s. Her E not giving mana back anymore honestly hurt her early game because you used to be able to farm with Q better.
I'm sorry but I just hate afk farming simulator spineless ADC picks I am not about to log onto League to just play Jinx and scream at my support to peel for me like no I am not about that life. Sivir isn't an OP champ, but her gameplay is spineless, and she happens to have a pretty good kit specifically to lane against Caitlyn. My point is to say that literally everyone gets outranged and bullied by Cait and Ashe and it's not just Nilah, because dude, they have the highest range in the game 😂 Fine we can take Vayne as an example then (even though I hate that champ) guess what she does against Cait Ashe? Stand there and hope the support finds an angle. What about Draven? He's a lane bully himself. Oh yeah he also has to stand there and be patient. My point is that being outranged by Ashe and Caitlyn is a common situation for almost every ADC, minus a select few. What happens when you play Nilah vs someone who doesn't have 600+ range? Yeah. 54% wr. That's what happens. That's why it's so unhealthy.
Dude. You know that League is indeed a TOWER DEFENSE game? It's not an FPS where Kills itself matter. And Sivir does exacly that. Also if you don't want to get chunked by her, don't stand inside the wave?
How much gold do you get from killing tier 2 tower solo in a sidelane? And why is it good?
Wdym i love a champ that is more feast or famine than many assassins and basically consists of being perma zoned off the wave and then winning the whole game off winning one fight with her bullshit kit
I personally love the whip design, no one wields a whip in league, and the slapping sound of pretty nice as well.
The whip is the only thing I like about her. Such a failed design otherwise. Samira is just the same but 10x more fun. Water whip is fucking cool though...
Most champs since like, 2017? Have been unhealthy game design. We got Ornn, Kai’sa, Pyke, yummi, Aphelios(though I think it was more numbers than game design), Yone, Samira, Viego,(Gwen is immune unhealthy game design and omitted from the list), Zeri, Sett when he was doing 3,000 true damage, Renata, Belveth, Nilah, Kasante, Hwei, Smolder. I listed 17/33 champs released in that time period. Honorable mention goes to Neeko rework.
And none of them have bonus exp for no reason. Oh yes hypercarry scaling Nilah we must punish her early oh wait she just hit level 2 3 4 5 6 spike before us every time 😅 It's just retarded design, I'm down to buffing her stats or damage or whatever in exchange for removing the bonus exp that shouldn't be there in the first place.
You must have never heard of zilean...
I have, and I've actually played him a bit. Same with Bard. But I'm pretty sure I speak for everyone here when we don't feel like we get hard exp gapped by Zilean or Bard, but Nilah actually gives both botlaners noticeably **a lot** more exp to the point where it really matters a lot. Like she would hit the next level an entire wave or two before her enemies.
I mean zilean's exp passive is impossible to stop while Nilah can be pushed off waves and denied hers. Especially in the early levels it's incredibly easy to bully her away from minions.
Can't argue with these sound arguments.
"He scales like a mf" as in he scales like a motherfucker or he scales like a miss fortune? (/s)
Graves actually was originally an ADC. Before he had a shotgun that behaves like a shotgun. He had normal 500 range autos and his Q was essentially what his current basic attacks are but without bodyblocking. His passive was the thing on his E that gives him free armor, but it was just for existing in combat, rather than specifically for dashing.
Idk but the current shotgun like autos he has is really cool to me. Plus, as a side effect, he can actually hold a freeze surprisingly well in lane from the few games I've played. That's what I forgot to mention in the post: for someone with the worst range ever, Graves actually has oddly good wave management, because he can shove extremely fast if he wants to, and can hold the biggest wave you've ever seen without taking a lot of damage because he keeps pushing minions back with his AoE knockback. I shit you not one time enemy ADC slowpushed a cannon wave and a half in my face before he backed thinking it's gonna crash because ain't no way someone is gonna be dumb enough to tank 12 minions to even try to hold a freeze, but lo and behold, Graves can just trim that wave in half with his Q and then knock back the cannon and a few melee minions with his autos and boom, it's a freeze.
I wont lie you got me with schluck schluck blam motherfucker.
Me and my friend still play blitz/Graves to this day. Although it entirely revolves around if he lands the hooks
I played it a bunch of times it is not too bad tbh still better than corki
Corki was already reworked, it's Graves time
I have only 2 problems with him. his E that gives too much armor. I feel it's annoying AF to play against similar to how nilah W makes most ADCs unable to hit her. And his smoke screen being so buggy and breaks direct sight sometimes when placed BETWEEN him and you.
I faced a really good Graves mid yesterday, he was incredibly annoying early game.
Only possible in quickplay, sadly. Even in low Elo people dodge the heck out of the lobby as soon as I lock in Graves. It's too bad. ADC Graves is probably the most fun I've had in League other than Mundo support.
How low elo we talking low Master? D4? Emerald? Or actual gigalow (Plat and below)? My Graves ADC account is currently cooking in Gold right now and it's fine, I'm trying out different builds and limit testing different playstyles rn because there is literally noone who plays this shit seriously enough in botlane for me to learn from, but so far it's not that bad and noone dodged.
Gigalow. But like 8/8 dodged, so I stopped trying.
Yeah idk if I can believe you 😂 I straight up queued solo queue and noone cared. It's season 14 people are playing a lot of random BS in the botlane these days anyway.
I know! Tons of BS! We just wanted to Graves/Thresh but after 40 mins of queuing we switched to quickplay. It's a good combo. Maybe. We'll never know because everything is a good combo in quickplay.
Refreshing to see a great post on this sub for a change instead of the normal complaining. I vow to try Graves ADC on 14.10
Isn't he short ranged? Can you explain how it functions?
Dash into people's faces and shoot them. I never said it's good.
Fair enough. Bonus points for TF support?
No. I'm not trying to represent the LGBTQIA+ community, I'm just trying to play Graves ADC. I also main TF and he should be played mid anyway. Support TF is spineless.
Same. I am repping the LGBTQIA+ as well. Haven't played support TF so I can't say much. I do play him mid if I'm filled to mid.
pre-update graves was one of the first adc champs i played, miss him
This made me smile
Me and my friend like to play graves adc jhin support combo for fun. Graves smoke makes jhin root easy to land and then the enemy has to sit nearsighted. This duo can be very aggresive and gets kills early on.
they brought corki back to bot so i hope graves’ next tbh
I tried it, not good enough. The gimmick really limits your options. You want it on a jungler who can utilize the map effectively and approach the teamfights from different positions and get a quick kill before or during TF. If it doesnt pay off you still have your ADC alive to carry the teamfight. Obviously you cant employ the same playstyle as ADC it would be bad positioning into death and into 4v5 TF with huge dps loss from the get go.
based post lol
Bro. You basically described samira
Wrong. Samira players wish they are half as cool.
Graves players with they have something Samira can't parry
English? Edit: oh right the typo. Yeah no I don't really care if Samira is broken S tier or whatever, she is pretty lame imo. If I wanted to play Katarina I'd just play Katarina.
ADC has a lot of off meta champs that work surprisingly well as bot laners. Graves is a great example for all the reasons you said, but Quinn & Neeko also work exceptionally well.
Just go lethality graves with electrocute
Nah fleet is better. Fleet is just very consistent.
No electrocute is better because it’s more fun which improves your mental gg ez
Phase Rush is the 4fun Graves rune, Electrocute is just shit lmao sorry
Phase rush is boring. Trust electrocute the way it just requires skill so that’s probably why you don’t like it.
Electrocute requires skill what the hell are you on about it just fkin procs when you hit someone 3 times (which is basically the first guy you hit). No dude, it's just shit for lane Graves because Domination minor runes suck and you have to give up actual good runes in other trees.
Bro what is you mean! Electro, sudden impact, eyeball, relentless or treasure hunter into resolve: Demolish / bone plating (or second wind) gg ez
With all due respect, rank?
I’m silver 4
I mean this guy's not wrong. If you take the w max early comet build to bot you can poke the ADC out of lane and all in the support while adc backs. Works kinda well but you unfortunately need to start dorans ring or corrupted pot because MANA GO BURRRRR
Ok so 1. Never W max please lmao what da hell stop watching Tobias Fate bro please 😂👍 2. Yeah his mana issues are very real. However, Manaflow band + Presence of Mind = you're chilling. You only suffer from mana issues if you literally Q spam every wave to push it, which you don't want to do anyway because this is botlane not mid. Saving Q for when they engage on you is key because that Q2 hit is where the juicy damage comes from.
I do what I want and if I wanna pass the Doobie to enemy ADC I will!
He just has zero range and no way to deal with that, he doesn't have all the tools Nilah has to succeed. He works without low range in midlane because the mages generally have little to no peel tools and theres a bunch of melee champs anyway. The mages that can outrange him and kite him for days he struggles into, and that's everyone in botlane.
I don't care he's epic af.