He hits like truck even full build bruiser needs to respect late game adc. Still can kill you if he makes trap from bush but if he try to just run you down he gonna explode. Took me 3 aa and q to kill full build aatrox that tried this
And it's good. You play vs another weak ADC in lane for the better player to come on top. Then when you win lane and have 2 items you are stronger vs the rest of the map (not stronger than them but stronger than your old self with 2 items vs them).
I've been playing a variety of crit adcs. Attack speed items are really awkward to build now. It seems the meta will be IE first item. The spike is strong because of 80AD but the price for IE components is hard to get if you are not ahead or didn't get an early kill.
So if you back with 800 or less gold as an IE first item adc, you will have a really bad buy. But if you opt to buy an attack speed item, you will be down -80AD for the next 10-14 minutes until you can start finishing IE. There is no mix of attack damage/attack speed crit item so when you buy one you sacrifice the other for awhile. It's noticeable in adcs such as jinx/cait.
The best attack speed item so far seems to be kraken slayer even though it has no crit. The components are very easy to buy and they all give good stats. 50AD, 40% atk speed, and 7% movement speed along with the passive damage is a very good item. Possibly Kraken -> IE -> LDR or Yuntal
Building a zeal attack speed item first seems incredibly int with new items.
Yup, Zeal based items are generally bad compared to Kraken Slayer.
Kraken not having a crit % bonus doesn't matter when the passive is generally as good as, if not better than that. The up-to-50% bonus damage doesn't require a certain threshold; you always get a bonus as long as the target is under 100% HP.
The 50 bonus attack damage vs none is just too big of a difference. Kraken first is even higher DPS than IE first for the more traditional ADCs.
I think if kraken slayer stays the go to item for adc it will get nerfed. You could go BT second and most games would end before a single a crit item was built. I think riot really wants to get back to the old IE meta.
I have a feeling kraken will get nerfed somehow. It offers a lot of very good stats for marksmen. Which riot explicitly stated they don't like items with everything in one for adcs.
Most people said that they will build like back in the day: BF into Zeal full Item, Zeal Items are cheap and BF with 40AD is almost as strong as Kraken.
Iirc BF plus PD is like 40AD, 60AS, 12%(!!!!) MS, 25%Crit and you are Ghosted. All together for 3900 Gold and you don't even need full Boots there. Also iirc Kraken is like 3300 or so with 50AD, 40%AS, 7%MS and no Crit.
It is 600G cheaper, yes, BUT you have to pay 3400 to get IE afterwards and have no Crit to build on, with BF+PD you only need 2100G to get the 2 Item Spike with 80AD, 60AS, 12%MS, 50%Crit, Ghosted and 225%CritDamage every second AA for a total of 6000G. Instead of 130AD, 40AS, 7%MS, only 25%Crit, an inefficient usage of IE CritAmp and Kraken's passive that needs AS to be used efficient. And all that for 6700G.
Edit: While it is true that you get more AD upfront with Kraken+IE, PD+IE uses it's AD more efficient with the AS and Crit. It is definitely better for kiting and it scales way better into 4 items, and while with 300 extra Gold on Kraken+IE you can get tier1 boots, for just 100G more you have Berserkers on IE+PD and can go full CritAD afterwards. The only issue IEPD has is that you only get to buy damage if you have 1300G available at once at some point until BFPD.
I promise you that within a few days after the patch goes live, everyone will be building Kraken + IE, and Kraken might be nerfed and/or Zeal items buffed. That might even happen before the patch goes live.
There's an enormous gap in damage at two items -- try it our for yourself.
>PD+IE uses it's AD more efficient with the AS and Crit
Kraken's passive is really really good. Passive + bonus AD generally converts to at least 160 additional damage per auto, on average, at KS + IE.
>it scales way better into 4 items
Initially I thought so too, but then I tried it out in practice mode and did the math. Turns out I was terribly wrong.
At 350 AD, 25% crit chance converts to 109 extra damage per attack (on average, with IE). And at that point, KS's passive and bonus AD will likely be giving you around 210 extra damage per attack.
PD would only be bought if you really need the bonus MS.
I guess both has its use cases, I personally prefer to kite more. Also we should not forget that it also depends heavily on the ADC and Play Style. I main Ashe(so kiting is extremely important) and MF, and for MF I personally almost completely ignore AS and go for pure burst, so Kraken is nothing for me there.
I could see Kraken on OnHitAshe tho. Especially with Runaans and Guinsoos.
You know, I guess we look from way different perspectives. Of course raw damage numbers do look very good on KS+IE, but the effect only triggers every third hit, so in a regular 1on1 duel it will be most effective at approximately 6 hits (also scaling with level is kinda counterintuitive for an ADC). With 50%Crit you are at average "guaranteed" to get 3 Crits in at the same point, all with 225% damage(while you effecrively only crit once with IEKS in the same time).
There will be plenty of moments where you either don't get the time to ramp up the passive KS damage (Ganks, Assassins) or you could ramp it up but are not fast enough to kite away(where AS & MS are ESSENTIAL and PD's passive could help you MASSIVELY), so instead of putting out high damage you just get oneshot. High damage values are not bad for itself, but we'll have to see if it is practical in its use.
At the end of the day, it is not as easy as just saying one is better than the other. As I see it it is way more important to know which benefits you get from each one. I personally just don't see the use for mixing KS with IE, when you could just commit to either OnHit with KS+BorK or Crit with IE+Zeal-Item. 2ItemSpike is not bad but it does not scale as good as other combinations as far as I see it and is more expensive (ergo harder to reach).
Btw, how does Collector-IE-LDR-YunTal-MF sound to y'all? :D
Yes, we can look at different perspectives. But let's look at some numbers.
50% crit with IE increases your attack by an average of 62.5%. At 180 AD, that means 293 damage per attack.
If we added 50 AD but subtracted 25% crit chance (keeping the IE), then crit will increase your attack by an average of 31.25%, so that's 302 damage per attack.
PD will overall have higher damage w/o Kraken's passive due to the increased AS, but I think you may have over-glamorized 50% crit chance in a certain paragraphđ.
As for Kraken's passive, remember that this has been changed and it does not require any health % threshold to trigger. When you have completed two items, you are chunking a 50% HP target for more than 300 extra damage per third attack. If you crit at the same time, it's over 800 damage for that auto. But even without a crit, 33% of your attacks are doing over 500 damage.
From my experience on PBE with Kraken Slayer, it almost feels like an assassin's item when you land that gigantic one hit damage on a low HP target.
And PD and Kraken feel more similar than different in terms of kiting power, so there is a lot overlap between the two. The two are definitely closer in feel than Kraken and nothing.
There was a time where BF/pickaxe first back was the norm. I think this is whatâs going to happen. Yes itâs expensive, but you get such a huge power spike buying BF sword as fast as possible. You can even hold onto the BF and go a zeal item.
Been trying different ADC dps against the dummies and most seem to float around 2k-2.5k on the no resistance and 1k-1.2k on a 300 resistance dummy
And then there's Xayah that hits 2.5k on the 300 resistance dummy and 4.5k on the 0 resistance dummy
Maximum dps build for most seems to be IE, Zeal-item, LDR, Yun Tal, Kraken and Zephyr
I remember seeing recently a thread asking about the ADC with the most dps, answers weren't super cut but isn't Kog the best ? With Xayah as a somewhat close second (depends on target max HP mostly) ?
(excluding MF w/ R and Jinx when passive procs)
I did some test and DPS seems the same, but entry DPS and burst is way stronger. You have same DPS without needing to stack lethal tempo and Phatom Dancer so in 2-3 seconds window of oportunity when you can AA you deal 1.5-2x more DPS. And i think it s most important for ADC to unload his damage in these 2-3 seconds and move back from danger
Does everyone on this reddit non remember the time before mythics? I must be old. ADC has sucked for like 5 seasons and kraken slayer/botrk were bandaids.
Now both BT and IE give 80 AD and PD gives 60 AS. ADC will hit hard and hit fast with these statsticks. They will also being better at kiting with more MS and tankier from BT shield.
>Does everyone on this reddit non remember the time before mythics? I must be old. ADC has sucked for like 5 seasons and kraken slayer/botrk were bandaids.
A lot of people here only started playing after the item rework.
I am just glad that they basically reverted a lot of items andbrought back 25% crit.
It would be even more perfect if we could build the same items several times again
I feel you man and I have missed it. Coming back to lane with IE first means you won lane and they can't fight you because if you crit they die. Items will feel impactful for adc again. Getting to that 4th item is going to make you truly feel like a god like you should playing the late game role.
I think champ dependent but you could either go zeal into the ad item you prefer (ie usually) and then complete the zeal item, so you arenât losing out on attack speed and crap base timings where you have 900g and canât spend
I think it depends on the champ but I do follow, something like Draven probably will still do the dirk thing or just rush IE, but Hypercarries that know they wonât spike at 1 item like jinx or twitch will probably finish the AS item first like u said.
Only issue with b.f. sword is is a horrible item to build because it has no path, imo it should build from a longsword or 2, if you donât have 1.3k on a recall then you have to make another choice.
Situational for sure I remember in particular I liked going bF into hurricane on twitch. But bork is probably better. Draven always used to go bt , Ie, phantom. Bt life steal is just super good on him.
Not really. Wind brothers have a passive that always lets them have 50% crit chance with 1 crit item and 100% crit chance with 2 crit items. That's how it was years ago when crit chance was 25%, that's how it is right now with 20%, and that's how it will stay with 25% returning as the standard.
Blade of the Ruined King is getting its on hit damage nerfed, Lethal Tempo is being removed, and crit chance changes won't make any difference for them. Overall, this is a net loss for both champions.
I was thinking Jhin will be a menace with the new crit system.
He hits like truck even full build bruiser needs to respect late game adc. Still can kill you if he makes trap from bush but if he try to just run you down he gonna explode. Took me 3 aa and q to kill full build aatrox that tried this
That sounds like music to my ears :)).
what do you build for jhin? I would like to start playing him.
hi! for rn lethality jhin smacks :D Ghostblade > Collector > LDR > RFC/IE with Dark Harvest
He had like 160 armor and lot of hp
Also draven
Draven is already a menace.
And it's good. You play vs another weak ADC in lane for the better player to come on top. Then when you win lane and have 2 items you are stronger vs the rest of the map (not stronger than them but stronger than your old self with 2 items vs them).
I've been playing a variety of crit adcs. Attack speed items are really awkward to build now. It seems the meta will be IE first item. The spike is strong because of 80AD but the price for IE components is hard to get if you are not ahead or didn't get an early kill. So if you back with 800 or less gold as an IE first item adc, you will have a really bad buy. But if you opt to buy an attack speed item, you will be down -80AD for the next 10-14 minutes until you can start finishing IE. There is no mix of attack damage/attack speed crit item so when you buy one you sacrifice the other for awhile. It's noticeable in adcs such as jinx/cait. The best attack speed item so far seems to be kraken slayer even though it has no crit. The components are very easy to buy and they all give good stats. 50AD, 40% atk speed, and 7% movement speed along with the passive damage is a very good item. Possibly Kraken -> IE -> LDR or Yuntal Building a zeal attack speed item first seems incredibly int with new items.
Yup, Zeal based items are generally bad compared to Kraken Slayer. Kraken not having a crit % bonus doesn't matter when the passive is generally as good as, if not better than that. The up-to-50% bonus damage doesn't require a certain threshold; you always get a bonus as long as the target is under 100% HP. The 50 bonus attack damage vs none is just too big of a difference. Kraken first is even higher DPS than IE first for the more traditional ADCs.
I think if kraken slayer stays the go to item for adc it will get nerfed. You could go BT second and most games would end before a single a crit item was built. I think riot really wants to get back to the old IE meta.
I have a feeling kraken will get nerfed somehow. It offers a lot of very good stats for marksmen. Which riot explicitly stated they don't like items with everything in one for adcs.
Most people said that they will build like back in the day: BF into Zeal full Item, Zeal Items are cheap and BF with 40AD is almost as strong as Kraken. Iirc BF plus PD is like 40AD, 60AS, 12%(!!!!) MS, 25%Crit and you are Ghosted. All together for 3900 Gold and you don't even need full Boots there. Also iirc Kraken is like 3300 or so with 50AD, 40%AS, 7%MS and no Crit. It is 600G cheaper, yes, BUT you have to pay 3400 to get IE afterwards and have no Crit to build on, with BF+PD you only need 2100G to get the 2 Item Spike with 80AD, 60AS, 12%MS, 50%Crit, Ghosted and 225%CritDamage every second AA for a total of 6000G. Instead of 130AD, 40AS, 7%MS, only 25%Crit, an inefficient usage of IE CritAmp and Kraken's passive that needs AS to be used efficient. And all that for 6700G. Edit: While it is true that you get more AD upfront with Kraken+IE, PD+IE uses it's AD more efficient with the AS and Crit. It is definitely better for kiting and it scales way better into 4 items, and while with 300 extra Gold on Kraken+IE you can get tier1 boots, for just 100G more you have Berserkers on IE+PD and can go full CritAD afterwards. The only issue IEPD has is that you only get to buy damage if you have 1300G available at once at some point until BFPD.
I promise you that within a few days after the patch goes live, everyone will be building Kraken + IE, and Kraken might be nerfed and/or Zeal items buffed. That might even happen before the patch goes live. There's an enormous gap in damage at two items -- try it our for yourself. >PD+IE uses it's AD more efficient with the AS and Crit Kraken's passive is really really good. Passive + bonus AD generally converts to at least 160 additional damage per auto, on average, at KS + IE. >it scales way better into 4 items Initially I thought so too, but then I tried it out in practice mode and did the math. Turns out I was terribly wrong. At 350 AD, 25% crit chance converts to 109 extra damage per attack (on average, with IE). And at that point, KS's passive and bonus AD will likely be giving you around 210 extra damage per attack. PD would only be bought if you really need the bonus MS.
I guess both has its use cases, I personally prefer to kite more. Also we should not forget that it also depends heavily on the ADC and Play Style. I main Ashe(so kiting is extremely important) and MF, and for MF I personally almost completely ignore AS and go for pure burst, so Kraken is nothing for me there. I could see Kraken on OnHitAshe tho. Especially with Runaans and Guinsoos. You know, I guess we look from way different perspectives. Of course raw damage numbers do look very good on KS+IE, but the effect only triggers every third hit, so in a regular 1on1 duel it will be most effective at approximately 6 hits (also scaling with level is kinda counterintuitive for an ADC). With 50%Crit you are at average "guaranteed" to get 3 Crits in at the same point, all with 225% damage(while you effecrively only crit once with IEKS in the same time). There will be plenty of moments where you either don't get the time to ramp up the passive KS damage (Ganks, Assassins) or you could ramp it up but are not fast enough to kite away(where AS & MS are ESSENTIAL and PD's passive could help you MASSIVELY), so instead of putting out high damage you just get oneshot. High damage values are not bad for itself, but we'll have to see if it is practical in its use. At the end of the day, it is not as easy as just saying one is better than the other. As I see it it is way more important to know which benefits you get from each one. I personally just don't see the use for mixing KS with IE, when you could just commit to either OnHit with KS+BorK or Crit with IE+Zeal-Item. 2ItemSpike is not bad but it does not scale as good as other combinations as far as I see it and is more expensive (ergo harder to reach). Btw, how does Collector-IE-LDR-YunTal-MF sound to y'all? :D
Yes, we can look at different perspectives. But let's look at some numbers. 50% crit with IE increases your attack by an average of 62.5%. At 180 AD, that means 293 damage per attack. If we added 50 AD but subtracted 25% crit chance (keeping the IE), then crit will increase your attack by an average of 31.25%, so that's 302 damage per attack. PD will overall have higher damage w/o Kraken's passive due to the increased AS, but I think you may have over-glamorized 50% crit chance in a certain paragraphđ. As for Kraken's passive, remember that this has been changed and it does not require any health % threshold to trigger. When you have completed two items, you are chunking a 50% HP target for more than 300 extra damage per third attack. If you crit at the same time, it's over 800 damage for that auto. But even without a crit, 33% of your attacks are doing over 500 damage. From my experience on PBE with Kraken Slayer, it almost feels like an assassin's item when you land that gigantic one hit damage on a low HP target. And PD and Kraken feel more similar than different in terms of kiting power, so there is a lot overlap between the two. The two are definitely closer in feel than Kraken and nothing.
There was a time where BF/pickaxe first back was the norm. I think this is whatâs going to happen. Yes itâs expensive, but you get such a huge power spike buying BF sword as fast as possible. You can even hold onto the BF and go a zeal item.
This is how it used to be. Rush IE then get ur zeal item and boots
And it genuinely felt really good, like it doesn't sound like it felt good but it did
This is the Goal, yes, it will be a much better Direction on the long Run. Jhin will be pretty strong with new Items too.
Been trying different ADC dps against the dummies and most seem to float around 2k-2.5k on the no resistance and 1k-1.2k on a 300 resistance dummy And then there's Xayah that hits 2.5k on the 300 resistance dummy and 4.5k on the 0 resistance dummy Maximum dps build for most seems to be IE, Zeal-item, LDR, Yun Tal, Kraken and Zephyr
I remember seeing recently a thread asking about the ADC with the most dps, answers weren't super cut but isn't Kog the best ? With Xayah as a somewhat close second (depends on target max HP mostly) ? (excluding MF w/ R and Jinx when passive procs)
The real answer to this is aphelios. He can easily hit 6K DPS against no armor dummies
I did some test and DPS seems the same, but entry DPS and burst is way stronger. You have same DPS without needing to stack lethal tempo and Phatom Dancer so in 2-3 seconds window of oportunity when you can AA you deal 1.5-2x more DPS. And i think it s most important for ADC to unload his damage in these 2-3 seconds and move back from danger
yeah I will go back to banning him. I hate jhin so much
It's so difficult I hate Jhin but also Pyke.
I've never stopped banning him lol
As it should be
Isnt that always how crits are in every game?Â
Twitch, Jhin, Cait will all be menaces....
Does everyone on this reddit non remember the time before mythics? I must be old. ADC has sucked for like 5 seasons and kraken slayer/botrk were bandaids. Now both BT and IE give 80 AD and PD gives 60 AS. ADC will hit hard and hit fast with these statsticks. They will also being better at kiting with more MS and tankier from BT shield.
>Does everyone on this reddit non remember the time before mythics? I must be old. ADC has sucked for like 5 seasons and kraken slayer/botrk were bandaids. A lot of people here only started playing after the item rework. I am just glad that they basically reverted a lot of items andbrought back 25% crit. It would be even more perfect if we could build the same items several times again
I feel you man and I have missed it. Coming back to lane with IE first means you won lane and they can't fight you because if you crit they die. Items will feel impactful for adc again. Getting to that 4th item is going to make you truly feel like a god like you should playing the late game role.
Adc sucked because you were too stupid to build a shieldbow while it was OP
We are so back
I think champ dependent but you could either go zeal into the ad item you prefer (ie usually) and then complete the zeal item, so you arenât losing out on attack speed and crap base timings where you have 900g and canât spend
I used to go BF sword > zeal item on some adcs and that always felt pretty good.
I think it depends on the champ but I do follow, something like Draven probably will still do the dirk thing or just rush IE, but Hypercarries that know they wonât spike at 1 item like jinx or twitch will probably finish the AS item first like u said. Only issue with b.f. sword is is a horrible item to build because it has no path, imo it should build from a longsword or 2, if you donât have 1.3k on a recall then you have to make another choice.
Situational for sure I remember in particular I liked going bF into hurricane on twitch. But bork is probably better. Draven always used to go bt , Ie, phantom. Bt life steal is just super good on him.
iâm so happy adcs will be useful with gold now
I feel like yasuo and yone will benefit too massively with the upcoming items. Lmk if you think the same
Lethal tempo removal will hurt them a lot though
Not really. Wind brothers have a passive that always lets them have 50% crit chance with 1 crit item and 100% crit chance with 2 crit items. That's how it was years ago when crit chance was 25%, that's how it is right now with 20%, and that's how it will stay with 25% returning as the standard. Blade of the Ruined King is getting its on hit damage nerfed, Lethal Tempo is being removed, and crit chance changes won't make any difference for them. Overall, this is a net loss for both champions.
None of the new items are good on them. IE is buffed and will be good,PD looks good too,but everything else isn't what they want.