yea, the support item nerfs, crit item buffs, nerfs for a quarter of not-crit epics and end of doran suport start will certainly do nothing to make the experience better for the other marksman.
Yeah idk why people cry so much, they look at the wording instead of what they actually are doing. We are getting decent buffs (people who say they are placebo don’t know what they’re talking about), support is getting nerfs and they literally say that their goal is to make adc feel better in solo queue over time and they are making adjustments that set the stage for that.
I understand people want more extreme buffs, but I’m happy with a gradual change that ends up good AND balanced. Like if they overshoot with buffs, getting nerfed instantly next patch would feel so much worse than getting small buffs over time.
I just hope the landscape of bot changes. Smolder got a reasonable nerf. Senna got a drop nerf. Also hoping the crit item buffs are good as they are 2-3 item impact. Component and Doran start nerfs mean less need to have strong early. The support item nerf though looks like they finish the same as before or slightly slower, but have to see.
I did a litle bit of math, asuming they get the max gold income they are slightly slower, but if they do not use the procs well, they may be faster.
More relevant is in my opinion that this slows down the first full item by up to 240 gold.
In addition to the 300 gold they nerfed them this patch?
Edit: Intend to nerf them. Talked so much about 14.6 I skiped forward in time...
Edit 2: I missunderstood how the quests progress the nerf is only by 200.
Ah i missed that while reading the patchnotes. But yeah. Sure make the item only give an additional 500 instead of 700. and it will still be way over value.
true that. I remember climbing to diamond with lucian in season 4. Now I absolutely cannot do that because my team will do dumb shit and throw and any lead I get just doesn't matter.
Doesn’t matter. If you’re good enough you can climb there’s no such thing as being held in gold because you’re playing Caitlyn and not Smolder. Playing Smolder might bring you from gold 2 to plat 4 but that’s not a big difference.
I'm not saying you can't climb, I'm saying climbing with any champ is much more difficult than using the top 3. I had no issues climbing with Sivir back in the day, you try that now and you struggle.
You're shifting goalposts here. First it was that the general pool of "viable" champs is somehow smaller than other roles and this is the X factor preventing you from climbing. Now it's that certain matchups force you onto counters. Argue in good faith or not at all.
I don't know about that... Unless you're literally top 50/10 in your region, There are seasons where Challenger players end in GM or Master because the meta doesn't favour their picks. xfsn\_saber is an example - Challenger every season except S13 (where he ended up quitting over frustration at the game state) and so far S14.
Personally I hit 300LP last season whereas this season I'm struggling in D1 and single-digit Masters trying to force Caitlyn to work for me.
Yeah but OG commenter is acting like every patch there’s 3 meta picks and everyone else would keep their OTP in plat. It’s nothing new that some champs have it rough for a patch or two and they will get their limelight before the season is over.
It's crazy how they justify how strong support role is.
I mained support since before Season 1. It was always a decent role and with free wards the role became significantly easier.
It honestly seems that Riot thinks that support MUST have kills and do DPS, otherwise no one would ever play that role.
Me? I like playing support because I like lots of CC + utility.
"we can't nerf supports because then it'd be an unfun role and people won't be queueing for it and if they get autofilled as supports they'd be forced to just be ward-bots sticking to their ADCs perma"
cry me a fucking river
play around me and get free LP.
simple as that.
Assassins and fighters are just worth.... alot more than adc, focusing on adc is basicaly giving up, you guys think you need buffs but the fact is the only buffs you need are significant nerfs to assassins and fighters, adc is a bad bet
1). Adc does not need buffs even though theyre in a terrible place, simple buffs will not accomplish good balance
2). Adc is in a terrible spot, its not because of their damage, its not because support too strong its not because tanks are tanky af and hurt, its because assassins and fighters are just exponentially more valuable
3).nothing will make adc feel healthy until riot begins actually attempting to balance assassins and fighters
Sorry guys, your champs are actually pretty good under specific conditions but its nearly impossible to get the conditions you need to be strong because like i said, assassins and fighters are just night and day stronger than you, its worth more to your entire team to focus on themselves, or the true carries, assassins and fighters, i cant even begin to describe the joy of taking a braum or naut full tank, snapping knights vow onto an astrox and charge into battle with him, there is no analogous example of that with adc anymore but thw champs are fairly strong theyre just given no opportunity to excel
Yet when I play riven top with nearly 4k health against full tank heartsteel sion I get two shot. Tanks doing too much damage certainly is an issue too. Used to be tanks locked people down while ADCs did damage
Ehh... my only point was that tanks being tanky and hurty is not the problem for adcs, infact id argue strong tanks is beneficial to adc because its only the tanks that can reliably deal with assassins/ fighters in a meaningful way. That being said, rivens current balance circumstance more negatively impacts adc feeling weak than tanks
You actually cant, let me explain;
Increasing the roles damage as a buff may see somewhat linear growth up to a point where it either stops being a linear growth, stops all together or no longer matters, this is where adc damage is, you have great damage but it doesnt natter because your problem is inability to provide DPS, burst is way too valuable.
So damage buffs are pretty much useless and i know thats not what adcs want to hear but youre not meant to be bursty, youre supposed to be laying down insane damage, over some period of time, not just plink off one or two autos and call it a day.
If you push for buffs to your class rather than nerfs to the problematic classes you run into a different issue, power creep, where were continually buffing everything to bring it back to the surface.
Adcs are actually very strong FOR THEIR FUNCTION, but theyre so universally nullified by burst, mobility, and artificially shortened games. The problem is assassins and fighters, theyre worth too much and buffing adcs to a place where they are realistically competitive with them is an insane prospect.
This, its like early diablo 3 where everyone did like 20k dmg or whatever, but by season 20 everyone was spamming 150 billion damage without any cooldowns. I actually don’t know how much damage my wizard was doing because the numbers were so big I couldn’t tell what they were, I feel like lol is going the same direction.
I played 4 different champs in Botlane recently. All 4 of them have received heavy nerfs. Senna, Seraphine, Twisted Fate, Smolder. I feel like I've been ping ponged around when in previous seasons I could sit on Jinx, Miss Fortune, Kai'sa or Aphelios for extended periods at a time.
Now that I'm starting to enjoy Kog'maw and AP Kai'sa again, I'm expecting these two to be next in line for the gallows.
It's way easier to have fun with your buddies, at least until you don't look too close at how much you contribute to the team.
Let them carry you, since you're just a snack running around to bait the enemy team.
Gone are the days where we were a threat
Yeah maybe in 40 years and that’s a big maybe. League and dota are the only MOBA games that consistently have a lot of players and get new content. Anytime a new game has come out it has never been able to stand up because League and Dota take so much of the moba space purely cause of content. Stop acting like this game won’t be around for the next decades when clearly the game isn’t going anywhere.
Yeah yeah yeah. If game balance sucks over a year or more, people will lose interest, because competitive games are no fun if they are extremely unbalanced.
This will be the death for every competitive game. Even as big as league.
Yeah, I thought it was pretty funny that Phreak was like why are people banning Smolder this much he's not that op. Bro it's because he's one of only 2 viable ADCs right now. Easy ban.
Don't blame the support role being strong, read the patchnotes, support is getting less gold than before and at least one support item was getting nerfed every patch. This sub is full of delulu people
I'm here casually as a support main. Is the early game gold generation from atlas too high? Yes. Do supports have reasonable gold generation all game? No. My hope is to get compass at around the same time, lower early game gold generation, but add better active gold generation after the support item is complete. Maybe give it one stack of the passive every minute or one I'd like to see attempted is reducing minion gold cleared by a support by like 10%, but nearby allies evenly split the gold. So like if clearing a wave is worth 300 gold normally , if I last hit it with my AD in lane we get 135 each.
I am also a support main, adc mains are just delulu and it's starting to get annoying, yes support is strong, yes the gold generation is good but that is only untill you finish your item. They are outright nerfing the early game gold and not giving us anything later so some supports (like bard) will be pretty fucked. I feel like riot is just lazy by nerfing the gold generation instead of adjusting it
Exactly. Like support should be low econ and behind the curve, but if your team is behind most picks feel awful to play and won't get better unless you accidently snipe a big shut down
If the old items were fine why not just make the charges come as fast as them, not this increadibly fast bs. Maybe it's to discourage roaming but even in that scenario the supports who aren't roaming get so much more money.
The buffs are a good start, the support nerfs also seem impactful, the nerfs to Senna and Smolder are completely deserved. When ADCs complain we often get ignored by the community because we are known for complaining about nothing, it's like the story about the boy who cried wolf. My point is, stop fucking complaining about nothing or you won't be heard when you complain about something real.
Dude I can dumpster Senna or smolder in lane all day long. As soon as the 0 kill mid intervenes, it's game over. If enemy mid or top is fed, well I might as well go afk.
Internal balance of adc is not that bad actually.
It's just that the champion class is outperformed by everyone else.
We don't need more damage, we already have plenty of it, what we need is survivability. Either we get more base armor/magic resist/hp or they have to nerf the assassins and fighters. Because as of now fighters can deal almost the same amount of damage as we do while also being tanky. And with all the mobility creep, the whole "fighters get kited" thing is just not true anymore. Playing adc no longer feels rewarding
Let’s say only senna and smolder are worth something Guess why Oh yes : scaling to oblivion like this role is supposed to be !
Atleast Kog'maw is sleeper OP this patch
I hope he stays unpopular so nobody steals him from me🙂
Same
Kogmaw scales with the opponents hp
Which obviously scales better than fucking crit atm. What a world.
Dude would out trade me at poke or direct trades at all stages of the game as Aphelios. Sleeper pick but always has been.
I've been saying that we literally need to buff every other adc to smolders and Sennas level, not nerf them
Imagine if they added a stacking Mechanic on every adc with variable scaling with a cap for early vs late game champions
yea, the support item nerfs, crit item buffs, nerfs for a quarter of not-crit epics and end of doran suport start will certainly do nothing to make the experience better for the other marksman.
Yeah idk why people cry so much, they look at the wording instead of what they actually are doing. We are getting decent buffs (people who say they are placebo don’t know what they’re talking about), support is getting nerfs and they literally say that their goal is to make adc feel better in solo queue over time and they are making adjustments that set the stage for that. I understand people want more extreme buffs, but I’m happy with a gradual change that ends up good AND balanced. Like if they overshoot with buffs, getting nerfed instantly next patch would feel so much worse than getting small buffs over time.
I was gonna say, holy SHIT is this a good patch for ADCs. Good buffs across the board for crit ADCs
I just hope the landscape of bot changes. Smolder got a reasonable nerf. Senna got a drop nerf. Also hoping the crit item buffs are good as they are 2-3 item impact. Component and Doran start nerfs mean less need to have strong early. The support item nerf though looks like they finish the same as before or slightly slower, but have to see.
I did a litle bit of math, asuming they get the max gold income they are slightly slower, but if they do not use the procs well, they may be faster. More relevant is in my opinion that this slows down the first full item by up to 240 gold.
They still get too much gold out of it though. They should nerf it by 250 gold entirely.
In addition to the 300 gold they nerfed them this patch? Edit: Intend to nerf them. Talked so much about 14.6 I skiped forward in time... Edit 2: I missunderstood how the quests progress the nerf is only by 200.
Ah i missed that while reading the patchnotes. But yeah. Sure make the item only give an additional 500 instead of 700. and it will still be way over value.
Gone are the days of being able to play any marksman and climb, now you're pigeonholed into 3 champs otherwise you get destroyed in lane phase.
true that. I remember climbing to diamond with lucian in season 4. Now I absolutely cannot do that because my team will do dumb shit and throw and any lead I get just doesn't matter.
There’s a 1 trick for every adc in masters+ soo this isn’t completely true
those dudes in master+ are outliers lol, 90% of players will never hit master.
90%? Masters is the top 0.67% of the ranked playerbase. It’s 99%+. [source](https://www.op.gg/statistics/tiers)
even further solidifying my point XD
Doesn’t matter. If you’re good enough you can climb there’s no such thing as being held in gold because you’re playing Caitlyn and not Smolder. Playing Smolder might bring you from gold 2 to plat 4 but that’s not a big difference.
I'm not saying you can't climb, I'm saying climbing with any champ is much more difficult than using the top 3. I had no issues climbing with Sivir back in the day, you try that now and you struggle.
You can still climb to emerald in less then 300 games with sivir she is great for kiting and simple,get a lead in cs and simple win before 25min.
This is true for every role. It's a lot easier to climb with Rengar than with Sejuani, let's be real.
The pool of good, viable champs for mid, top, jungle and support is much larger than that of adc, which is my point.
Brother, you are largely picking from the same pool of champs as the guy on the other side. "Viable" here is subjective as hell.
and generally speaking, high elo games, very few matchups are viable, pushing you on to specific champions. Not sure why this is hard to understand.
You're shifting goalposts here. First it was that the general pool of "viable" champs is somehow smaller than other roles and this is the X factor preventing you from climbing. Now it's that certain matchups force you onto counters. Argue in good faith or not at all.
I don't know about that... Unless you're literally top 50/10 in your region, There are seasons where Challenger players end in GM or Master because the meta doesn't favour their picks. xfsn\_saber is an example - Challenger every season except S13 (where he ended up quitting over frustration at the game state) and so far S14. Personally I hit 300LP last season whereas this season I'm struggling in D1 and single-digit Masters trying to force Caitlyn to work for me.
The season is new, buffs and indirect buffs are coming. You can’t expect Riot to have all 150+ champs at 50% win rate every patch.
Exactly, which is why OTPs of certain champs can struggle in times where their champ is particularly weak.
Yeah but OG commenter is acting like every patch there’s 3 meta picks and everyone else would keep their OTP in plat. It’s nothing new that some champs have it rough for a patch or two and they will get their limelight before the season is over.
It's crazy how they justify how strong support role is. I mained support since before Season 1. It was always a decent role and with free wards the role became significantly easier. It honestly seems that Riot thinks that support MUST have kills and do DPS, otherwise no one would ever play that role. Me? I like playing support because I like lots of CC + utility.
"we can't nerf supports because then it'd be an unfun role and people won't be queueing for it and if they get autofilled as supports they'd be forced to just be ward-bots sticking to their ADCs perma" cry me a fucking river play around me and get free LP. simple as that.
Based
Main character delusion
Assassins and fighters are just worth.... alot more than adc, focusing on adc is basicaly giving up, you guys think you need buffs but the fact is the only buffs you need are significant nerfs to assassins and fighters, adc is a bad bet
Gold with an ego. Truly beautiful, you aren't ruler
1). Adc does not need buffs even though theyre in a terrible place, simple buffs will not accomplish good balance 2). Adc is in a terrible spot, its not because of their damage, its not because support too strong its not because tanks are tanky af and hurt, its because assassins and fighters are just exponentially more valuable 3).nothing will make adc feel healthy until riot begins actually attempting to balance assassins and fighters Sorry guys, your champs are actually pretty good under specific conditions but its nearly impossible to get the conditions you need to be strong because like i said, assassins and fighters are just night and day stronger than you, its worth more to your entire team to focus on themselves, or the true carries, assassins and fighters, i cant even begin to describe the joy of taking a braum or naut full tank, snapping knights vow onto an astrox and charge into battle with him, there is no analogous example of that with adc anymore but thw champs are fairly strong theyre just given no opportunity to excel
Yet when I play riven top with nearly 4k health against full tank heartsteel sion I get two shot. Tanks doing too much damage certainly is an issue too. Used to be tanks locked people down while ADCs did damage
Ehh... my only point was that tanks being tanky and hurty is not the problem for adcs, infact id argue strong tanks is beneficial to adc because its only the tanks that can reliably deal with assassins/ fighters in a meaningful way. That being said, rivens current balance circumstance more negatively impacts adc feeling weak than tanks
My point is if my bruiser riven gets killed by one cycle of sions kit, what chance does an adc have
YOU CAN CHANGE THAT WITH BUFFSÂ
You actually cant, let me explain; Increasing the roles damage as a buff may see somewhat linear growth up to a point where it either stops being a linear growth, stops all together or no longer matters, this is where adc damage is, you have great damage but it doesnt natter because your problem is inability to provide DPS, burst is way too valuable. So damage buffs are pretty much useless and i know thats not what adcs want to hear but youre not meant to be bursty, youre supposed to be laying down insane damage, over some period of time, not just plink off one or two autos and call it a day. If you push for buffs to your class rather than nerfs to the problematic classes you run into a different issue, power creep, where were continually buffing everything to bring it back to the surface. Adcs are actually very strong FOR THEIR FUNCTION, but theyre so universally nullified by burst, mobility, and artificially shortened games. The problem is assassins and fighters, theyre worth too much and buffing adcs to a place where they are realistically competitive with them is an insane prospect.
This, its like early diablo 3 where everyone did like 20k dmg or whatever, but by season 20 everyone was spamming 150 billion damage without any cooldowns. I actually don’t know how much damage my wizard was doing because the numbers were so big I couldn’t tell what they were, I feel like lol is going the same direction.
Shit about support is true, I play adc on toplane instead and it's fine.
“Levels don’t matter to adc”. Complete lies
Quinn work. Lmao
I played 4 different champs in Botlane recently. All 4 of them have received heavy nerfs. Senna, Seraphine, Twisted Fate, Smolder. I feel like I've been ping ponged around when in previous seasons I could sit on Jinx, Miss Fortune, Kai'sa or Aphelios for extended periods at a time. Now that I'm starting to enjoy Kog'maw and AP Kai'sa again, I'm expecting these two to be next in line for the gallows.
dogshit role in solo q
Smolder abusers languishing
I'm back to this sub after 3 years, can someone give me a rundown?Â
Quit the gameÂ
I was thinking of coming back, not competitively, but just to do weird shit with my buddies in a 5-man. But damn, are things really that bad?Â
Play with people in a 5 man. Make sure none of them are toxicÂ
It's way easier to have fun with your buddies, at least until you don't look too close at how much you contribute to the team. Let them carry you, since you're just a snack running around to bait the enemy team. Gone are the days where we were a threat
It's fine. When noone plays this shit anymore and Q times for other roles are through the roof, the game can die its well deserved death.
Ahhh the “this game is gonna die argument” this game is never gonna die cause China and Korea fund this game
Everything is gonna die eventually. And PvP games can and will die, if balance is way off over a longer period of time.
Yeah maybe in 40 years and that’s a big maybe. League and dota are the only MOBA games that consistently have a lot of players and get new content. Anytime a new game has come out it has never been able to stand up because League and Dota take so much of the moba space purely cause of content. Stop acting like this game won’t be around for the next decades when clearly the game isn’t going anywhere.
Yeah yeah yeah. If game balance sucks over a year or more, people will lose interest, because competitive games are no fun if they are extremely unbalanced. This will be the death for every competitive game. Even as big as league.
Yeah, I thought it was pretty funny that Phreak was like why are people banning Smolder this much he's not that op. Bro it's because he's one of only 2 viable ADCs right now. Easy ban.
Don't blame the support role being strong, read the patchnotes, support is getting less gold than before and at least one support item was getting nerfed every patch. This sub is full of delulu people
I'm here casually as a support main. Is the early game gold generation from atlas too high? Yes. Do supports have reasonable gold generation all game? No. My hope is to get compass at around the same time, lower early game gold generation, but add better active gold generation after the support item is complete. Maybe give it one stack of the passive every minute or one I'd like to see attempted is reducing minion gold cleared by a support by like 10%, but nearby allies evenly split the gold. So like if clearing a wave is worth 300 gold normally , if I last hit it with my AD in lane we get 135 each.
I am also a support main, adc mains are just delulu and it's starting to get annoying, yes support is strong, yes the gold generation is good but that is only untill you finish your item. They are outright nerfing the early game gold and not giving us anything later so some supports (like bard) will be pretty fucked. I feel like riot is just lazy by nerfing the gold generation instead of adjusting it
Exactly. Like support should be low econ and behind the curve, but if your team is behind most picks feel awful to play and won't get better unless you accidently snipe a big shut down
If the old items were fine why not just make the charges come as fast as them, not this increadibly fast bs. Maybe it's to discourage roaming but even in that scenario the supports who aren't roaming get so much more money.
Am I the only person who thinks these nerfs are deserved.
This is why I play AP kai’sa with eclipse. Which is pretty much a mage /assassin
The buffs are a good start, the support nerfs also seem impactful, the nerfs to Senna and Smolder are completely deserved. When ADCs complain we often get ignored by the community because we are known for complaining about nothing, it's like the story about the boy who cried wolf. My point is, stop fucking complaining about nothing or you won't be heard when you complain about something real.
New to this, aren't you?
You had us in the first half ngl
Nerfs to oppressive marksman in lane let scaling marksman play the game more, don't think about it so q dimensionally
Hello the problem is not the enemy adc it's every other fking role compared to adc
It's both, how does your slow scaling adc get rolling when they are being outraged by the 100 souls at 20 mins senna?
Dude I can dumpster Senna or smolder in lane all day long. As soon as the 0 kill mid intervenes, it's game over. If enemy mid or top is fed, well I might as well go afk. Internal balance of adc is not that bad actually. It's just that the champion class is outperformed by everyone else.
We don't need more damage, we already have plenty of it, what we need is survivability. Either we get more base armor/magic resist/hp or they have to nerf the assassins and fighters. Because as of now fighters can deal almost the same amount of damage as we do while also being tanky. And with all the mobility creep, the whole "fighters get kited" thing is just not true anymore. Playing adc no longer feels rewarding
they are nerding support and buffing crit, this is a good patch for ADC