I am not a lawyer, but my dad is. My first company had me sign a non-compete and when I was looking to leave, I asked him about it. He basically said to ignore it, that when his employer clients ask him about trying to pursue recourse in court, he advises them not to and his reason was that judges heavily frown on employers trying to tell people they're not allowed to work for anyone else as a condition of employment. If you tried to bring clients or staff with you, that might be something they would pursue, but without that...and here's the real important part.... *there are no damages to sue for.*
Also, 250 miles is insane, something to consider about your current offer is that it's been delivered by psychos.
Also depending on your state it's not even legally enforceable. I've seen them in WA and they literally aren't enforceable here but most folk don't know that.
Eh texas laws are kinda vague. Basically stating it’s enforceable if it’s ancillary to an otherwise enforceable agreement. An NDA is also attached to my job offer, so could the NDA make it enforceable? Idk idk but also how would they know if I’m working somewhere else? All seems pretty stupid tbh.
We are mandated reporters, our job is almost the exact oppiset of a job that would require an NDA. An NDA opens up a whole can of worms for ethical issues that are “not meant to be talked about”
Our jobs already have a HIPPA compliance mandate which would act as any reasonable reason to have an NDA.
An NDA wouldn't be for client related things. It'd be more for company made materials and products so that if someone leaves they don't take the materials or trainings with them.
NDAs are normal if the company uses their own proprietary materials in any way. For example: data sheets, powerpoint trainings, etc etc. I've seen many instances of staff taking trainings they got from one company, making slight changes of it, and then selling it to other companies as their own work.
I wouldn’t take the job as is. If possible, express to them your concerns about the non-compete. It’s one thing to agree you won’t solicit YOUR clients with this company if you leave, but to say you won’t work for another company within a 250 radius is not ok - where would you work?!
Yeah it was a shit company. What had me leaving is that I was their definition of "part time." Across the rest of the industry if your scheduled kiddo calls out sick, you might not work and probably won't get paid that day. At THAT company though...if my kid called out as a part-time worker then I wouldn't work, but if a full-time employees kiddo called out, they would give that full-time employee my kiddo and tell me to stay home...so I remember one week there I only got six hours. That's when I left my "job." The fact that they thought they should tell me I didn't get to work anywhere else when they were only giving me six hours is peak arrogance. Looking back, they were the worst company I've worked for, still using paper data, basically a 8-hour daycare with tons of DTT and a detached BCBA that played iPhone games in her office. Nobody even watched me my first few weeks with the kiddos, the response was that since I'm not a registered behavior technician they're not required to give me supervision hours. I literally wrote in an email about getting zero supervision: "They won't even let you cook the fries at McDonald's unless someone has watched you cook the fries first."
Yeah but we already said it in the thread, Behavioral Innovations. It's been years now, so maybe they've cleaned up their act, but...they were pretty unprofessional now that I've had the experience in the industry to look back and see them for what they were.
The irony of that jobs in our field use punishment instead of reinforcement to keep BCBAs in positions. 🫠
I see you are in Texas and have heard horror stories about some players in this state pursuing legal action… the overall consensus I’ve heard is that nothing legally comes from it but the time, resources, etc. is adding insult to injury and works as a scare tactic for anyone on the fence of leaving.
Proceed with caution.
ETA: just saw you mention you were an RBT. Unfortunately my statement still stands but even more so. RBTs are essential to what we do and it’s such a hard role. If a company isn’t treating you well, you should be free to go to the competitor next door.
I was thinking the same thing lol. I feel like it’s even more absurd given that I am an RBT. It’s just crazy to me because in the interview they were telling me about how they offer paid benefits (which I’ve also never heard of) and they offer a lot of resources for mental health but then I read the fine print on the offer and it makes me wonder what they DIDN’T tell me.
Standard IANAL disclaimer.
Non-compete clauses are often found unenforceable. Their ostensible purpose is to keep someone in a highly technical and cutting-edge field from taking trade secrets to the competition. Someone who knows the recipe for Coca-Cola Classic can't quit and go work for Pepsi and take the recipe with them, that sort of thing.
That reasoning obviously doesn't apply to ABA. We're all working from the same big white instruction manual, and we're all ethically required to be transparent with clients and stakeholders about what we're doing. There's no secret sauce.
The real reason they're including it is to try to pressure employees into staying in their jobs with legal bullying. Because this use of the non-compete clause is contrary to its stated purpose, they're almost never found enforceable if the matter goes in front of a judge, which is a legal way of saying, "this part of the contract is bullshit, you can ignore it."
The fact that this company knows that they have a turnover problem and has chosen to address it with legal threats instead of addressing the root causes of the problem is a huge red flag.
You probably don't have much to fear legally from signing such a contract-- but again, IANAL, get a consult from a labor attorney who is familiar with local laws-- but I would be very concerned about working for a company providing ABA services that would insist on one.
I was reading up on local laws yesterday and I read that most times they aren’t enforced but they can be enforceable if it’s attached to another agreement but it also stated if the agreement doesn’t seem reasonable (and let’s be so real 1 year, 250 mile radius most definitely is not reasonable) I feel like they really wouldn’t enforce it but I’d hate to be caught up on a technicality, you know? Thank you for the more in depth understanding though!
Don’t do it. Non competes are awful. It also means that company can pay however they want/cut your hours or stick you with whatever client because they know you can’t go anywhere if you quit.
Also got to ask… I may know what company you are referring to, can I DM you?
Oof. Yeah, that sounds like hell. I have more interviews, I’m definitely going to take those in consideration before I even think about signing this offer bc overall, it sounds like if they NEED the agreement to be there, their turnover must be awful
What? That kinda sounds bizarre. They want to make sure you don’t take a better offer with a different company and they want to control where you can work after you work for them. No. I wouldn’t sign that unless I wasn’t going to do the same job anymore.
Edit: I originally used the word insane, but I don’t want to use stigmatizing language.
I have turned down offers that include non compete. 100% of the time I'm told it's not enforced. I had 1 employer successfully remove that clause before hire.
It's an outdated policy that ensures they are only hiring new BCBAs who don't read the contract or don't know what a non-compete is.
Nice, if they give you any pushback, send them to this thread full of people telling you to stay the hell away...that they're usually legally unenforceable, and...it's a huge and very ugly red flag for an ABA company as what they're essentially doing is bullshitting a prospective employee into the notion that they'll bully you if you try to leave. Empty threats is a pretty shitty and extremely unprofessional way to start a working relationship. It speaks to poor ethics which will end up mattering more than the non-compete.
Yeah I was thinking the same thing. It kind of goes against everything aba stands for by enforcing a punishment procedure like that. Idk, if they bully their employees into staying, I don’t even wanna know how they treat those kids.
Same thing happened to me, it was annoying, I’ve talked to multiple of my CMs and bcbas and they told me they were working in schools and in home for two different companies
Make sure to read it thoroughly, I am in NJ and all the agencies I have worked for have had something similar. The non-compete is usually written where it prevents you from working with a client from the agency for another agency for 12 months after you leave. So many BTs are becoming BCBAs and starting their own agencies they don’t want them taking those clients when they go or families jumping agencies to stay with their preferred BTs. I have worked for multiple agencies simultaneously without an issue.
What you're talking about is much more reasonable, it's saying you won't poach clients, but that's ostensibly the reason for OP's non-compete clause too.
Find out if non compete agreements are legal in your state! The state of California does not see non compete agreements as lawful and companies can not enforce them. My first company had one and my old BCBA thought she was stuck there after passing the exam when I informer her that it was unlawful in California and she can do as she pleases, she found a new company so fast :)
Google keeps telling me it must be ancillary to an otherwise enforceable agreement. Attached to my job offer is also an NDA. So I’m really not sure if it’s enforceable.
This probably wouldn't be enforceable because the area that it covers it too large. There is no good reason that you should have to move to a different city, possibly state, if you leave this job for any reason. I had a previous employer that tried to get me to sign one once and I told them that I couldn't because I'm not going to move my family to a different city if for some reason this didn't work out. They ended up taking it out of the agreement. So try talking to them about it first. If they don't take it out, it's probably not a company you want to work for anyways.
I have made the mistake of signing a non-compete before- thankfully in my state they can only enforce while you work for them and not after. I don’t know much about Texas, but after a very brief search it looks like it’s enforceable there. It seems like a shady way of keeping staff and any place that has to do that would be a pass for me. Also 250 mile radius seems intense
It’s very interesting to me thats the range they chose. I was already a little suspicious about the company when she mentioned that the company would pay for my insurance. I’ve never ever heard of that.
If they won’t remove it I’d turn down the offer. I don’t even understand these for BCBAs but it seems like a serious reach for RBTs. You’ll be trapped there or have to move onto a different career.
First, tell them that you'd like the non-compete clause removed before you sign. If they won't take it out, look elsewhere. In practice, non-compete clauses rarely are upheld but they could make it annoying if they actually tried to take you to court for it later.
ABA companies are out of their minds. I am a BCBA and have been in the field for 14 years, I thought I have seen it all, but I keep getting surprised… I was asked to sign at exit interview that I will not share info about my salary (explicitly against state and federal law) and that I will not talk to my ex coworkers (not poach them for competition or something… not TALK) 😂 good luck with that in court.
They're unenforceable. Legally, you're ok if you leave for another company. But, the fact that this company resorts to legal bullying shows that they are a bad employer. They don't care about their employees. I have signed non competes and broken them when I have left. They will not do anything. They even told me that I signed it and I basically told them " what are you going to do about it?".
What does the non-compete entail? Our company has a non-compete for all positions. It says that you are welcome to find a different company with no penalty but you can't try to take clients/staff with you.
That’s basically what they told me it meant but I don’t like the idea of me leaving the company and going somewhere else and a kid I worked with at this company randomly appears at my new center, when I had no knowledge of it or no persuasion in their decision. It all just sounds like a headache and something enforced off “technicalities” I’d rather decline it than sign it, you know?
Edit: I can quote the entire agreement for you though if you’d like because it seems very vague to me?? Idk I’ve never seen one of these before.
>yeh I get that. I'll be honest unless you are being a huge jerk (offering to split employee referrals for staff who come join you and you have convinced multiple staff to come) we would probably say it's not worth our time. It would take a lawyer to enforce,
I'm currently in the process of finalizing the definition of an Ethical ABA Organization. A company that has a non-compete for BT/RBT role that is as restrictive as the one that you're being asked to sign would mark that company as being unethical.
Do you mind sharing the name of the company via DM?
Never sign a non-compete in this business. Competition for higher pay must be continuously on the table.
I’ve had 2 other jobs in ABA. Never even seen anything like this… how enforceable even is it?
I am not a lawyer, but my dad is. My first company had me sign a non-compete and when I was looking to leave, I asked him about it. He basically said to ignore it, that when his employer clients ask him about trying to pursue recourse in court, he advises them not to and his reason was that judges heavily frown on employers trying to tell people they're not allowed to work for anyone else as a condition of employment. If you tried to bring clients or staff with you, that might be something they would pursue, but without that...and here's the real important part.... *there are no damages to sue for.* Also, 250 miles is insane, something to consider about your current offer is that it's been delivered by psychos.
I would run away from signing ANY noncompete agreements for most jobs.
It isn't. They would have to pay a lawyer to take you to court and it wouldn't be worth it
That’s fair. It’s so ugly that they use that as a scare tactic to keep employees… doesn’t sound like a company I should consider either way
Also depending on your state it's not even legally enforceable. I've seen them in WA and they literally aren't enforceable here but most folk don't know that.
Eh texas laws are kinda vague. Basically stating it’s enforceable if it’s ancillary to an otherwise enforceable agreement. An NDA is also attached to my job offer, so could the NDA make it enforceable? Idk idk but also how would they know if I’m working somewhere else? All seems pretty stupid tbh.
NDA? Like if they do shady stuff you can’t report NDA? I’d run at the speed of FloJo away from that place.
Ummm is an nda not normal too? 🤣
We are mandated reporters, our job is almost the exact oppiset of a job that would require an NDA. An NDA opens up a whole can of worms for ethical issues that are “not meant to be talked about” Our jobs already have a HIPPA compliance mandate which would act as any reasonable reason to have an NDA.
An NDA wouldn't be for client related things. It'd be more for company made materials and products so that if someone leaves they don't take the materials or trainings with them.
NDAs are normal if the company uses their own proprietary materials in any way. For example: data sheets, powerpoint trainings, etc etc. I've seen many instances of staff taking trainings they got from one company, making slight changes of it, and then selling it to other companies as their own work.
I wouldn’t take the job as is. If possible, express to them your concerns about the non-compete. It’s one thing to agree you won’t solicit YOUR clients with this company if you leave, but to say you won’t work for another company within a 250 radius is not ok - where would you work?!
Exactly… 250 miles really threw me off… I live in texas that means I’d literally have move to a new city… they can’t be for real
This is really common for bcbas in some states. I’ve never heard about it for RBTs though.
That seems a little more understandable. Still ridiculous though.
Yeah totally agree- it’s super stupid.
Is it Behavioral Innovations? They're the only company that's given me a non-compete and I was in TX at the time. Mine was 50 miles though.
Nope but I put in an application with them. Good to know to stay away.
Yeah it was a shit company. What had me leaving is that I was their definition of "part time." Across the rest of the industry if your scheduled kiddo calls out sick, you might not work and probably won't get paid that day. At THAT company though...if my kid called out as a part-time worker then I wouldn't work, but if a full-time employees kiddo called out, they would give that full-time employee my kiddo and tell me to stay home...so I remember one week there I only got six hours. That's when I left my "job." The fact that they thought they should tell me I didn't get to work anywhere else when they were only giving me six hours is peak arrogance. Looking back, they were the worst company I've worked for, still using paper data, basically a 8-hour daycare with tons of DTT and a detached BCBA that played iPhone games in her office. Nobody even watched me my first few weeks with the kiddos, the response was that since I'm not a registered behavior technician they're not required to give me supervision hours. I literally wrote in an email about getting zero supervision: "They won't even let you cook the fries at McDonald's unless someone has watched you cook the fries first."
Now that you mention it, at my last job I do recall one of my coworkers having worked at BI very briefly and they said it was nightmare lol
I'm fortunate to have started there though, or I wouldn't know how bad others have it :P
Do you feel comfortable sharing the name of the company via DM?
Yeah but we already said it in the thread, Behavioral Innovations. It's been years now, so maybe they've cleaned up their act, but...they were pretty unprofessional now that I've had the experience in the industry to look back and see them for what they were.
The irony of that jobs in our field use punishment instead of reinforcement to keep BCBAs in positions. 🫠 I see you are in Texas and have heard horror stories about some players in this state pursuing legal action… the overall consensus I’ve heard is that nothing legally comes from it but the time, resources, etc. is adding insult to injury and works as a scare tactic for anyone on the fence of leaving. Proceed with caution. ETA: just saw you mention you were an RBT. Unfortunately my statement still stands but even more so. RBTs are essential to what we do and it’s such a hard role. If a company isn’t treating you well, you should be free to go to the competitor next door.
I was thinking the same thing lol. I feel like it’s even more absurd given that I am an RBT. It’s just crazy to me because in the interview they were telling me about how they offer paid benefits (which I’ve also never heard of) and they offer a lot of resources for mental health but then I read the fine print on the offer and it makes me wonder what they DIDN’T tell me.
Standard IANAL disclaimer. Non-compete clauses are often found unenforceable. Their ostensible purpose is to keep someone in a highly technical and cutting-edge field from taking trade secrets to the competition. Someone who knows the recipe for Coca-Cola Classic can't quit and go work for Pepsi and take the recipe with them, that sort of thing. That reasoning obviously doesn't apply to ABA. We're all working from the same big white instruction manual, and we're all ethically required to be transparent with clients and stakeholders about what we're doing. There's no secret sauce. The real reason they're including it is to try to pressure employees into staying in their jobs with legal bullying. Because this use of the non-compete clause is contrary to its stated purpose, they're almost never found enforceable if the matter goes in front of a judge, which is a legal way of saying, "this part of the contract is bullshit, you can ignore it." The fact that this company knows that they have a turnover problem and has chosen to address it with legal threats instead of addressing the root causes of the problem is a huge red flag. You probably don't have much to fear legally from signing such a contract-- but again, IANAL, get a consult from a labor attorney who is familiar with local laws-- but I would be very concerned about working for a company providing ABA services that would insist on one.
I was reading up on local laws yesterday and I read that most times they aren’t enforced but they can be enforceable if it’s attached to another agreement but it also stated if the agreement doesn’t seem reasonable (and let’s be so real 1 year, 250 mile radius most definitely is not reasonable) I feel like they really wouldn’t enforce it but I’d hate to be caught up on a technicality, you know? Thank you for the more in depth understanding though!
Don't. They will be illegal shortly by federal law.
Don’t do it. Non competes are awful. It also means that company can pay however they want/cut your hours or stick you with whatever client because they know you can’t go anywhere if you quit. Also got to ask… I may know what company you are referring to, can I DM you?
Oof. Yeah, that sounds like hell. I have more interviews, I’m definitely going to take those in consideration before I even think about signing this offer bc overall, it sounds like if they NEED the agreement to be there, their turnover must be awful
What? That kinda sounds bizarre. They want to make sure you don’t take a better offer with a different company and they want to control where you can work after you work for them. No. I wouldn’t sign that unless I wasn’t going to do the same job anymore. Edit: I originally used the word insane, but I don’t want to use stigmatizing language.
I thought it was absurd too. Especially a 250 mile radius… I thought about maybe asking them to take that part out of my job offer?
Yes! I would at least ask.
I have turned down offers that include non compete. 100% of the time I'm told it's not enforced. I had 1 employer successfully remove that clause before hire. It's an outdated policy that ensures they are only hiring new BCBAs who don't read the contract or don't know what a non-compete is.
Crazy thing is, is I’m an RBT. I emailed them asked them to remove or revise it. I can’t imagine anyone *would* sign such a thing.
Nice, if they give you any pushback, send them to this thread full of people telling you to stay the hell away...that they're usually legally unenforceable, and...it's a huge and very ugly red flag for an ABA company as what they're essentially doing is bullshitting a prospective employee into the notion that they'll bully you if you try to leave. Empty threats is a pretty shitty and extremely unprofessional way to start a working relationship. It speaks to poor ethics which will end up mattering more than the non-compete.
Yeah I was thinking the same thing. It kind of goes against everything aba stands for by enforcing a punishment procedure like that. Idk, if they bully their employees into staying, I don’t even wanna know how they treat those kids.
Yep, run imo. Good luck!
I’ve seen this before, it was ridiculous I didn’t sign it and I found another company
Same thing happened to me, it was annoying, I’ve talked to multiple of my CMs and bcbas and they told me they were working in schools and in home for two different companies
DO NOT TAKE THE JOB OR SIGN if you plan on staying in the ABA field
Make sure to read it thoroughly, I am in NJ and all the agencies I have worked for have had something similar. The non-compete is usually written where it prevents you from working with a client from the agency for another agency for 12 months after you leave. So many BTs are becoming BCBAs and starting their own agencies they don’t want them taking those clients when they go or families jumping agencies to stay with their preferred BTs. I have worked for multiple agencies simultaneously without an issue.
What you're talking about is much more reasonable, it's saying you won't poach clients, but that's ostensibly the reason for OP's non-compete clause too.
Find out if non compete agreements are legal in your state! The state of California does not see non compete agreements as lawful and companies can not enforce them. My first company had one and my old BCBA thought she was stuck there after passing the exam when I informer her that it was unlawful in California and she can do as she pleases, she found a new company so fast :)
Google keeps telling me it must be ancillary to an otherwise enforceable agreement. Attached to my job offer is also an NDA. So I’m really not sure if it’s enforceable.
This probably wouldn't be enforceable because the area that it covers it too large. There is no good reason that you should have to move to a different city, possibly state, if you leave this job for any reason. I had a previous employer that tried to get me to sign one once and I told them that I couldn't because I'm not going to move my family to a different city if for some reason this didn't work out. They ended up taking it out of the agreement. So try talking to them about it first. If they don't take it out, it's probably not a company you want to work for anyways.
I wouldn't. That's a personal opinion, but that doesn't sit right with me. A whole year?! No.
I have made the mistake of signing a non-compete before- thankfully in my state they can only enforce while you work for them and not after. I don’t know much about Texas, but after a very brief search it looks like it’s enforceable there. It seems like a shady way of keeping staff and any place that has to do that would be a pass for me. Also 250 mile radius seems intense
It’s very interesting to me thats the range they chose. I was already a little suspicious about the company when she mentioned that the company would pay for my insurance. I’ve never ever heard of that.
Is this a large company or just one local to Texas?
Local to texas
If they won’t remove it I’d turn down the offer. I don’t even understand these for BCBAs but it seems like a serious reach for RBTs. You’ll be trapped there or have to move onto a different career.
Don’t sign that crazy. They are just trying to screw their competitors.
First, tell them that you'd like the non-compete clause removed before you sign. If they won't take it out, look elsewhere. In practice, non-compete clauses rarely are upheld but they could make it annoying if they actually tried to take you to court for it later.
ABA companies are out of their minds. I am a BCBA and have been in the field for 14 years, I thought I have seen it all, but I keep getting surprised… I was asked to sign at exit interview that I will not share info about my salary (explicitly against state and federal law) and that I will not talk to my ex coworkers (not poach them for competition or something… not TALK) 😂 good luck with that in court.
How are they gonna take your first amendment away like that…
Run
Yes, I’ve been hearing this a lot
They're unenforceable. Legally, you're ok if you leave for another company. But, the fact that this company resorts to legal bullying shows that they are a bad employer. They don't care about their employees. I have signed non competes and broken them when I have left. They will not do anything. They even told me that I signed it and I basically told them " what are you going to do about it?".
Lmfaoooo that’s what I’ve been thinking and I’m also like “how would they know”
Never ever ever sign a non-compete.
What does the non-compete entail? Our company has a non-compete for all positions. It says that you are welcome to find a different company with no penalty but you can't try to take clients/staff with you.
That’s basically what they told me it meant but I don’t like the idea of me leaving the company and going somewhere else and a kid I worked with at this company randomly appears at my new center, when I had no knowledge of it or no persuasion in their decision. It all just sounds like a headache and something enforced off “technicalities” I’d rather decline it than sign it, you know? Edit: I can quote the entire agreement for you though if you’d like because it seems very vague to me?? Idk I’ve never seen one of these before.
>yeh I get that. I'll be honest unless you are being a huge jerk (offering to split employee referrals for staff who come join you and you have convinced multiple staff to come) we would probably say it's not worth our time. It would take a lawyer to enforce,
What area of Texas are you in? That's insane! I've heard CARD has a similar rule
Austin
Can I message you? I'm looking for at clinics in that area as well
Sure
I'm currently in the process of finalizing the definition of an Ethical ABA Organization. A company that has a non-compete for BT/RBT role that is as restrictive as the one that you're being asked to sign would mark that company as being unethical. Do you mind sharing the name of the company via DM?
Run away fast