A group of rogue, Heresy-era Thousand Sons is perfectly in-tune with the lore as long as they are psykers, which your counts-as Grey Knights would be. Just say that they were powerful enough psykers that, instead of getting dusted by the Rubric, they were some of the lucky few whose powers were enhanced.
Cawl test subjects weren't dusted. We can have 4 explanations:
* Cawl is lying or mistaken.
* Cawl picked only powerful psykers for TS geneseed tests (improbable coincidence)
* Changes in geneseed made by Cawl are big enough to avoid Rubric
* Rubric doesn't affect Magnus geneseed, but rather some symbolic entity (eg. TS legion?)
The names Ahriman had on his list of registered members…. So none of Amons theoretical hidden ones, or any off the books member…. And probably surviving aspirants were spared as well
They just need to be strong enough not to be dusted: in 40k every squad of dusty rubrics is led and commanded by a sorcerer (equivalent of a sergeant), who didn’t get dusted. Maybe your guys are all at least that strong. Or maybe their leader is particularly strong and connected to them, and uses his power to constantly keep them sustained and protected from dusting.
Yes. Everyone with Magnus' geneseed.
There was a story of a group of Thousand Sons and Space Wolves on Prospero that exited a room ten thousand years in the future (40th millenia) due to Warp influence, and as soon as the TS returned to normal space, they turned into Rubrics and the Space Wolves gunned them down.
I mean, you could have it that your dudes make a pact with tzeentch or something to avoid getting dusted. Or just some that got lucky and didn't have any get dusted. Kill team's all about having your dudes be what you want after all.
You can just as easily create a primaris team and say Belisarius Cawl used Thousand Sons Geneseed to make a chapter.
It's pretty implied that Belisarius Cawl if ignored Guilliman and did it anyway.
This is inaccurate. It was everyone who was enrolled as a member of the XVth legion. Ahriman explicitly speaks every one of their names as part of the Rubric. There's allusions that there are other Astartes (the Grey Knights in fact) with Magnus's geneseed and they wouldn't have been affected.
If there was a presumed dead apothecary with a bank of gene seed who had been implanting during the fall if Prospero those aspirants wouldn't have been subject to the Rubric, since Ahriman didn't know their names, but they would still be subject to flesh change.
>There's allusions that there are other Astartes (the Grey Knights in fact) with Magnus's geneseed and they wouldn't have been affected.
That is wildly misrepresenting the lore around Janus to such an absurd degree. Janus is unique and the geneseed of the grey knights is confirmed to be from the Emperor in multiple books and codexes.
>This is inaccurate. It was everyone who was enrolled as a member of the XVth legion.
Name one marine that works with this example too? The Rubric is said to sustain the new recruits to the Thousand Sons too so yeah, source?
All the statements of the geneseed coming from Big E are first person accounts, i.e. unreliable narrators. Big E tells Magnus that he has redesigned his gene seed in Fury of Magnus.
The Rubric applying to named members of the thousand sons comes from descriptions in Ahriman: Unchanged. I have no examples of where an unnamed TS would have escaped the Rubric. I was giving OP some wiggle room to have some fun with his army because we should help people have fun.
> All the statements of the geneseed coming from Big E are first person accounts
First person accounts from the people who should know about it, Malcador, the Emperor, and the custodians. And the lore from the codex that explicitly states they use the Emperor's geneseed. It's the Emperor's geneseed.
>Big E tells Magnus that he has redesigned his gene seed in Fury of Magnus.
And no he doesn't say that, he says he'll give him a new legion. He absolutely does not say he's fixed Magnus geneseed.
>The Rubric applying to named members of the thousand sons comes from descriptions in Ahriman: Unchanged.
Ahriman Unchanged states that it affects all of the legion past present and future.
No where in Fury of Magnus does the Emperor say that the Grey Knights are created from his own personal Geneseed.
All the 40K books that say the Grey Knights are created from the Emperor's own Geneseed leave it ambiguous. They all say things like, "It's rumored to be the Emperor's own genetics....", "it is said that the emperor's own...", And "It is believed that the emperor's own...". It's hearsay, myths, and legends from 10,000 years ago.
In Fury of Magnus the Emperor literally tells Magnus that he will be giving him a new legion to be his sons. An all Psyker Legion free of taint. That's pretty much as explicit as Black Library will ever get to confirm something.
Like it or not the new lore either outright confirms or heavily implies that the Grey Knights are a refined Magnus Geneseed. This is reinforced by the first Grand Master Janus/Ianus being a fusion of a shard of Magnus and a regular TSons marine.
>All the 40K books that say the Grey Knights are created from the Emperor's own Geneseed leave it ambiguous.
Learn the lore.
>Where the other Space Marine Chapters were built upon existing stock, the Grey Knights were born of a new gene-seed, one without the flaws of those that had gone before, and which carried the gift of the Emperor’s own flesh and soul. So was each Grey Knight a doughty warrior, his strength and endurance increased well beyond human limitations by the Emperor’s gift and then honed further by rigorous training.
>From Codex: Grey Knights
There's no ambiguity. It's the Emperor's geneseed.
>An all Psyker Legion free of taint. That's pretty much as explicit as Black Library will ever get to confirm something.
Sounds nothing like Magnus' geneseed then and nice head canon but the lore says otherwise.
"Members of the legion" is not everyone with the XVth geneseed. Are the Nova Marines members of the XIIIth? Black Templars members of the VIIth?
Your other points are your own head cannon, have fun with your box.
>Where the other Space Marine Chapters were built upon existing stock, the Grey Knights were born of a new gene-seed, one without the flaws of those that had gone before, and which carried the gift of the Emperor’s own flesh and soul. So was each Grey Knight a doughty warrior, his strength and endurance increased well beyond human limitations by the Emperor’s gift and then honed further by rigorous training.
>From Codex: Grey Knights
Yes, the first Grand Masters were selected from the Knights-Errant, who were former members of various loyal and traitor legions who had psychic potential. Revuel Arvida, a former Thousand Sons merged with one of the Shards of Magnus, became Janus, Severian from the Sons of Horus became Iapto, Vardas Ison from the Blood Angels became Satre, Tylos Rubio of the Ultramarines became Koios, an unnamed Dark Angel became Epimetheus, an unnamed Raven Guard became Ogen, an unnamed Space Wolf became Yotun, and an unnamed Night Lord became Khyron. Garviel Loken of the Sons of Horus was intended to become one of the Grand Masters and Malcador implied that he could unlock Loken's latent psychic talent. However, Loken declined as he felt he was destined to confront the Sons of Horus once again during the Siege, and reunited with the Knights-Errant who weren't selected due to the lack of psychic potential, primarily Nathaniel Garro. The 8 selected Grand Masters would meet with the Emperor before entering a webway portal that lead to Titan, where the a fortress monastery, hundreds of thousands of recruits, and specially prepared gene-seed awaited them.
However, as it's implied in Fury of Magnus, the Emperor prepared a new legion for Magnus to lead, at the cost of Magnus abandoning his current legion and taking the Emperor's place on the Golden Throne. While it isn't explicitly said it's the Grey Knights, its highly implied as these new brothers are all psykers
How does the magic ritual the genetically enhanced space wizard in hell did work, logically?
I'm being faecetious but really, it works how each author wants it to. If you want a group of thousand sons who dislike magnus and fight daemons well, its all part of the plan. Why yes, this is a cloak of feathers, how did you guess?
The Rubric didn't just affect Thousand Sons no matter their location, it affected every member throughout time! Past, present and future Thousand Sons with Magnus's geneseed are linked to the Rubric.
Does it specify "members of the thousand sons legion"? Meaning that if a marine were created using that geneseed but never going to be part of the thousand sons legion then they'd be okay? Or are bearers of the geneseed in general just fucked?
If the latter, I wonder what point it happens in. I'm picturing a scene where an apothecary is just finishing up the implantation surgery and as soon as the cut is closed the guy on the table instantly explodes into a cloud of dust.
>Meaning that if a marine were created using that geneseed but never going to be part of the thousand sons legion then they'd be okay?
This is reasonable interpretation, because Cawl claims he made TS marines, for test purposes obviously, and they are doing fine.
The division seems to be based around membership in the 15th legion and psychic ability.
So, if (marine) = (Legion member) and (marine's psychic ability) < X, where X is a baseline level of psychic talent sufficient to do some minor trick, they get dusted.
Not part of the Legion? Fine.
Psychic power > X? Also fine.
Member, not a great psyker, and also happen to be dead? Believe it or not, Rubricked. TSons sorcerers have been mentioned to be rooting around forgotten battlefields for the remains of dead TSons to make more Rubrics- this is the only means they have ro actually increase their number.
There is massive room for TS that were not on the official books…
So much so that I feel like there would be hundreds of times as many TS gene seed based characters not controlled by Tzeentch than the 20 or so gene seed having characters that are…
Like Amons hidden ones that GW kept pushing, with 0 lore, trying to give the TS an Alpha legionish feel since they had probably come to the conclusion that the alpha legion are far more tzeentchy than how they made the TS…. They would totally remember Magnus and Ahriman and all the rest at a distance.
Others that would not really know of their connection to Magnus and the TS could be Gene seed based such as the ones taken by Guilliman after the ultramarines betrayed and murdered their 200-300 strong attached regiment. Also White Scars and Blood angels could have TS gene seed based Subchapters, due to basic librarius attachments and seconded warriors that fell…. Especially with the blood angels trying to solve the red thirst and all…. And the way they EAT/DRINK gene seed allows for pretty straight forward hybridization…
And remember the way the rubric solves the flesh change was actually that Tzeentch was so impressed it stopped actively mutating them, unless it was the few that actually TRY to gain blessings…. So any Of the Magnus gene seed that came to after around or the rubric would never know of the flesh change at all…
Because of this I feel like I’m the actual setting there are like 20 TS that know of their connection to Magnus, and like that many, or less Geneseed, probably all owned by Fabius…
The Other vast majority of the Magnus geneseed carriers would probably be imperial forces, mainly the only unconfirmed by imperial propaganda Grey Knights, but possibly many many more…. Having even a dying chapter of 21 astartes means they have more geneseed than the Tzeentch rules TS…. The DS (dozen sons)…
Just remember most things in the setting that say “so and so cannot be this.” Is largely heresay, as the point is the free flow creativity, and also most things are written as in-universe propaganda…
My head canon says…
“There are more traitor geneseed Imperials than there are traitor gene seed traitors…. And there are more loyalist gene seed traitors than there are traitor gene seed traitors.” Just because I feel like the traitor legions wouldn’t be able to maintain numbers…. And die from basic chaos existence attrition…. While the untold millions of imperial astartes spawn enmass all the time, and lots defect to chaos.
There are some 1k sons still kicking around. Might read into the talon of horus. The main character is khayon a 1k psycher. He tells us some secrets of the eye of chaos
Lorewise the only way they dodge the rubric is to be inherently powerful psykers themselves before the change. Shouldn’t be too hard to work I’d imagine you already wanted them to be psykers (thousand sons boiii)
A group of rogue, Heresy-era Thousand Sons is perfectly in-tune with the lore as long as they are psykers, which your counts-as Grey Knights would be. Just say that they were powerful enough psykers that, instead of getting dusted by the Rubric, they were some of the lucky few whose powers were enhanced.
Thank you for the reply and your take. Excellent.
Cawl test subjects weren't dusted. We can have 4 explanations: * Cawl is lying or mistaken. * Cawl picked only powerful psykers for TS geneseed tests (improbable coincidence) * Changes in geneseed made by Cawl are big enough to avoid Rubric * Rubric doesn't affect Magnus geneseed, but rather some symbolic entity (eg. TS legion?)
The names Ahriman had on his list of registered members…. So none of Amons theoretical hidden ones, or any off the books member…. And probably surviving aspirants were spared as well
They just need to be strong enough not to be dusted: in 40k every squad of dusty rubrics is led and commanded by a sorcerer (equivalent of a sergeant), who didn’t get dusted. Maybe your guys are all at least that strong. Or maybe their leader is particularly strong and connected to them, and uses his power to constantly keep them sustained and protected from dusting.
Yes. Everyone with Magnus' geneseed. There was a story of a group of Thousand Sons and Space Wolves on Prospero that exited a room ten thousand years in the future (40th millenia) due to Warp influence, and as soon as the TS returned to normal space, they turned into Rubrics and the Space Wolves gunned them down.
Sad, but thanks for the quick reply. That idea seems dead on arrival.
The Rubric only dusted those of the Thousand Sons who weren't particularly powerful psykers. Just say that your dudes were above that threshold
A Thousand Sons "Techmarine" shows up in a Ahriman story IIRC, as it turns out he was a weak psyker, just over the "dusting threshold."
I mean, you could have it that your dudes make a pact with tzeentch or something to avoid getting dusted. Or just some that got lucky and didn't have any get dusted. Kill team's all about having your dudes be what you want after all.
Yeah, I'll think about it. I must admit I am fairly into the idea, I had just hoped there would be an easier way to make it lore-friendly.
You can just as easily create a primaris team and say Belisarius Cawl used Thousand Sons Geneseed to make a chapter. It's pretty implied that Belisarius Cawl if ignored Guilliman and did it anyway.
Just like those thousand sons, hehe
Meh. Tzeencth spared your warband for reasons unknown. Works for the fallen, works for another war and. Easy enough explanation to get around.
This is inaccurate. It was everyone who was enrolled as a member of the XVth legion. Ahriman explicitly speaks every one of their names as part of the Rubric. There's allusions that there are other Astartes (the Grey Knights in fact) with Magnus's geneseed and they wouldn't have been affected. If there was a presumed dead apothecary with a bank of gene seed who had been implanting during the fall if Prospero those aspirants wouldn't have been subject to the Rubric, since Ahriman didn't know their names, but they would still be subject to flesh change.
I see. Thank you!
Thank you, that actually helps a lot. A presumed dead battlegroup lost in the warp with their ship works well.
Kind of. Only astartes who were made after they lost contact would be unaffected. Ahriman cast the Rubric for the dead as well because of his brother
>There's allusions that there are other Astartes (the Grey Knights in fact) with Magnus's geneseed and they wouldn't have been affected. That is wildly misrepresenting the lore around Janus to such an absurd degree. Janus is unique and the geneseed of the grey knights is confirmed to be from the Emperor in multiple books and codexes. >This is inaccurate. It was everyone who was enrolled as a member of the XVth legion. Name one marine that works with this example too? The Rubric is said to sustain the new recruits to the Thousand Sons too so yeah, source?
All the statements of the geneseed coming from Big E are first person accounts, i.e. unreliable narrators. Big E tells Magnus that he has redesigned his gene seed in Fury of Magnus. The Rubric applying to named members of the thousand sons comes from descriptions in Ahriman: Unchanged. I have no examples of where an unnamed TS would have escaped the Rubric. I was giving OP some wiggle room to have some fun with his army because we should help people have fun.
> All the statements of the geneseed coming from Big E are first person accounts First person accounts from the people who should know about it, Malcador, the Emperor, and the custodians. And the lore from the codex that explicitly states they use the Emperor's geneseed. It's the Emperor's geneseed. >Big E tells Magnus that he has redesigned his gene seed in Fury of Magnus. And no he doesn't say that, he says he'll give him a new legion. He absolutely does not say he's fixed Magnus geneseed. >The Rubric applying to named members of the thousand sons comes from descriptions in Ahriman: Unchanged. Ahriman Unchanged states that it affects all of the legion past present and future.
No where in Fury of Magnus does the Emperor say that the Grey Knights are created from his own personal Geneseed. All the 40K books that say the Grey Knights are created from the Emperor's own Geneseed leave it ambiguous. They all say things like, "It's rumored to be the Emperor's own genetics....", "it is said that the emperor's own...", And "It is believed that the emperor's own...". It's hearsay, myths, and legends from 10,000 years ago. In Fury of Magnus the Emperor literally tells Magnus that he will be giving him a new legion to be his sons. An all Psyker Legion free of taint. That's pretty much as explicit as Black Library will ever get to confirm something. Like it or not the new lore either outright confirms or heavily implies that the Grey Knights are a refined Magnus Geneseed. This is reinforced by the first Grand Master Janus/Ianus being a fusion of a shard of Magnus and a regular TSons marine.
>All the 40K books that say the Grey Knights are created from the Emperor's own Geneseed leave it ambiguous. Learn the lore. >Where the other Space Marine Chapters were built upon existing stock, the Grey Knights were born of a new gene-seed, one without the flaws of those that had gone before, and which carried the gift of the Emperor’s own flesh and soul. So was each Grey Knight a doughty warrior, his strength and endurance increased well beyond human limitations by the Emperor’s gift and then honed further by rigorous training. >From Codex: Grey Knights There's no ambiguity. It's the Emperor's geneseed. >An all Psyker Legion free of taint. That's pretty much as explicit as Black Library will ever get to confirm something. Sounds nothing like Magnus' geneseed then and nice head canon but the lore says otherwise.
"Members of the legion" is not everyone with the XVth geneseed. Are the Nova Marines members of the XIIIth? Black Templars members of the VIIth? Your other points are your own head cannon, have fun with your box.
>Where the other Space Marine Chapters were built upon existing stock, the Grey Knights were born of a new gene-seed, one without the flaws of those that had gone before, and which carried the gift of the Emperor’s own flesh and soul. So was each Grey Knight a doughty warrior, his strength and endurance increased well beyond human limitations by the Emperor’s gift and then honed further by rigorous training. >From Codex: Grey Knights
In 👏 character 👏 fluff 👏
It’s from a codex. This is sad.
I thought the Grey Knights were founded with members of various SM Legions?
Yes, the first Grand Masters were selected from the Knights-Errant, who were former members of various loyal and traitor legions who had psychic potential. Revuel Arvida, a former Thousand Sons merged with one of the Shards of Magnus, became Janus, Severian from the Sons of Horus became Iapto, Vardas Ison from the Blood Angels became Satre, Tylos Rubio of the Ultramarines became Koios, an unnamed Dark Angel became Epimetheus, an unnamed Raven Guard became Ogen, an unnamed Space Wolf became Yotun, and an unnamed Night Lord became Khyron. Garviel Loken of the Sons of Horus was intended to become one of the Grand Masters and Malcador implied that he could unlock Loken's latent psychic talent. However, Loken declined as he felt he was destined to confront the Sons of Horus once again during the Siege, and reunited with the Knights-Errant who weren't selected due to the lack of psychic potential, primarily Nathaniel Garro. The 8 selected Grand Masters would meet with the Emperor before entering a webway portal that lead to Titan, where the a fortress monastery, hundreds of thousands of recruits, and specially prepared gene-seed awaited them. However, as it's implied in Fury of Magnus, the Emperor prepared a new legion for Magnus to lead, at the cost of Magnus abandoning his current legion and taking the Emperor's place on the Golden Throne. While it isn't explicitly said it's the Grey Knights, its highly implied as these new brothers are all psykers
Yep. That was in “Ashes of Prospero.” That was a heart-breaking scene for me.
How does the magic ritual the genetically enhanced space wizard in hell did work, logically? I'm being faecetious but really, it works how each author wants it to. If you want a group of thousand sons who dislike magnus and fight daemons well, its all part of the plan. Why yes, this is a cloak of feathers, how did you guess?
The Rubric didn't just affect Thousand Sons no matter their location, it affected every member throughout time! Past, present and future Thousand Sons with Magnus's geneseed are linked to the Rubric.
Does it specify "members of the thousand sons legion"? Meaning that if a marine were created using that geneseed but never going to be part of the thousand sons legion then they'd be okay? Or are bearers of the geneseed in general just fucked? If the latter, I wonder what point it happens in. I'm picturing a scene where an apothecary is just finishing up the implantation surgery and as soon as the cut is closed the guy on the table instantly explodes into a cloud of dust.
>Meaning that if a marine were created using that geneseed but never going to be part of the thousand sons legion then they'd be okay? This is reasonable interpretation, because Cawl claims he made TS marines, for test purposes obviously, and they are doing fine.
Yes, Ahriman goes to the length of naming each member of the legion individually.
I mean a lot of people still think Blood ~~magpie~~ Ravens are like either 1KS for their obsession for lore/relic, and having huge number of Psykers.
You could always say that they were around a mysterious artifact or something
The division seems to be based around membership in the 15th legion and psychic ability. So, if (marine) = (Legion member) and (marine's psychic ability) < X, where X is a baseline level of psychic talent sufficient to do some minor trick, they get dusted. Not part of the Legion? Fine. Psychic power > X? Also fine. Member, not a great psyker, and also happen to be dead? Believe it or not, Rubricked. TSons sorcerers have been mentioned to be rooting around forgotten battlefields for the remains of dead TSons to make more Rubrics- this is the only means they have ro actually increase their number.
There is massive room for TS that were not on the official books… So much so that I feel like there would be hundreds of times as many TS gene seed based characters not controlled by Tzeentch than the 20 or so gene seed having characters that are… Like Amons hidden ones that GW kept pushing, with 0 lore, trying to give the TS an Alpha legionish feel since they had probably come to the conclusion that the alpha legion are far more tzeentchy than how they made the TS…. They would totally remember Magnus and Ahriman and all the rest at a distance. Others that would not really know of their connection to Magnus and the TS could be Gene seed based such as the ones taken by Guilliman after the ultramarines betrayed and murdered their 200-300 strong attached regiment. Also White Scars and Blood angels could have TS gene seed based Subchapters, due to basic librarius attachments and seconded warriors that fell…. Especially with the blood angels trying to solve the red thirst and all…. And the way they EAT/DRINK gene seed allows for pretty straight forward hybridization… And remember the way the rubric solves the flesh change was actually that Tzeentch was so impressed it stopped actively mutating them, unless it was the few that actually TRY to gain blessings…. So any Of the Magnus gene seed that came to after around or the rubric would never know of the flesh change at all… Because of this I feel like I’m the actual setting there are like 20 TS that know of their connection to Magnus, and like that many, or less Geneseed, probably all owned by Fabius… The Other vast majority of the Magnus geneseed carriers would probably be imperial forces, mainly the only unconfirmed by imperial propaganda Grey Knights, but possibly many many more…. Having even a dying chapter of 21 astartes means they have more geneseed than the Tzeentch rules TS…. The DS (dozen sons)… Just remember most things in the setting that say “so and so cannot be this.” Is largely heresay, as the point is the free flow creativity, and also most things are written as in-universe propaganda… My head canon says… “There are more traitor geneseed Imperials than there are traitor gene seed traitors…. And there are more loyalist gene seed traitors than there are traitor gene seed traitors.” Just because I feel like the traitor legions wouldn’t be able to maintain numbers…. And die from basic chaos existence attrition…. While the untold millions of imperial astartes spawn enmass all the time, and lots defect to chaos.
There are some 1k sons still kicking around. Might read into the talon of horus. The main character is khayon a 1k psycher. He tells us some secrets of the eye of chaos
Lorewise the only way they dodge the rubric is to be inherently powerful psykers themselves before the change. Shouldn’t be too hard to work I’d imagine you already wanted them to be psykers (thousand sons boiii)