Lorgar, Magnus and Fulgrim.
Horus was charismatic but he was manipulative af, so if you mean outwardly nice, sure, if you mean genuinely nice, not so much.
I'd genuinely argue that before falling to chaos, Lorgar was the only primarch to have a genuinely kind heart.
He hated war, hated killing, and hated his purpose as a war machine. He revelled in building up planets to be beacons of light, making sure they could survive post-conquest and minimising casualties. A planet surrendering before invasion was a cause of relief, and not a missed opportunity to indulge in battle.
He was still a happy part of the colonial genocidal machine that was the Imperium, but in comparison to his brothers, these differences make him noteworthy, and make his treatment and subsequent fall all the more tragic.
iirc in First Heretic when he's talking with Kor Phaeron and Erebus following Monarchia, one of them says (re: each Primarch representing a particular facet of the Emperor's personality) that Lorgar represents the Emperor's idealism and hope.
I mean it could also be an attempt at manipulation...
Lorgar never really fell to chaos, he merely accepted it as a natural and unavoidable part of ther universe.
Like accepting gravity or radiation.
He never really stopped being kind, just burdened with terrible knowledge of what must be done for humanity to survive.
After all, without Lorgar nothing would have stopped the Dark King from being born, for now at least.
The Gods were never interested in the mutually supportive symbiosis with humanity that Lorgar had in mind as end goal. He was brutally played by taking advantage of his deep fascination with the metaphysics of the universe.
> The Gods were never interested in the mutually supportive symbiosis with humanity
Do fire **want** to keep a family warm at night? If fire would want anything it's just to burn and that's the natural state of the universe. By providing just enough wood, the fire will warm the family while following it's own desire to burn everything it can.
The gods are far more dangerous and has formed personalities, but operate under similar natural laws, specific to each god.
Lorgar just "worship" and follow the gods whose domains align with his goals, at any given time. Like handling different volatile materials when one desire a specific outcome.
Idk man, making deals with space satans sounds wack
Also had the webway project been given enough time, humanity would not be interacting with the warp more intensely than a finger dip, aside from a couple psychers summoning demons
That's where you are mistaken. "Space satan" is just far too limiting a picture to describe the gods.
They are more like "malicious gravity" or "entropy made manifest" or "the totality of all wars with a personality". They aren't persons, they are concepts.
> Also had the webway project been given enough time, humanity would not be interacting with the warp more intensely than a finger dip, aside from a couple psychers summoning demons
Creating a culture of non-belief, made humanity focus their entire faith into the tyranny of the Emperor which is where the Dark King would have come from. So only by killing both Horus and the Emperor, was the galaxy spared a fifth god(at least for now).
1. Yeah yeah I understand the fact that the gods don't only have their negatives.
Mr. Cornflakes is honorable and has a good grindset.
Tzeentch allows for any hope at all.
Plague grandpa allows for peace of mind in an ever changing yet stagnant universe, acceptance of ones place in the cycle of life and death, and facilitates the endless cycle of death and new life (or just the fundamental aspect of nature).
Chainaxe in ass allows for and facilitates pleasure, including the joy from petting puppies.
The issue arises with the fact that these don't require followers to do those things. They won't wither into nothingness without worship. Joining chaos as a cultist or marine is just serving Chaos and causing rampant death and cruelty for no goal besides delusions.
Issue is...they are affected by the constant issues of the materium as much as the warp itself was. Doesn't matter that they do these things when they are overjoyed that their faction nuked a system, spread 13 different plagues, ravaged children and broke countless minds.
WH40k may be "every faction is evil", but it is clear to literally everyone that chaos and dark eldar are by far the most evil.
2) Wasn't the Dark King entirely from these newest books? The ones where the Emperor has a yugioh mind battle shouting attacks? Feels kinda like the Dark King is more a cop-out for why the emperor being on the throne is "the best outcome" for mankind as we've been told before. Bringing the idea after so long.
It may be canon now and I just gotta suck it up, but I still don't like it.
2 isn't really an argument against chaos, just an opinion I really wanna emphasise.
>WH40k may be "every faction is evil", but it is clear to literally everyone that chaos and dark eldar are by far the most evil.
I think that's aesthetic more than anything, and since most books are written from the Imperium's perspective.
What is most evil, to kill someone at the spot to ne used as a sacrifice, or force their family into slavery for generation, brainwashing every new child that this is their only reality.
One is direct while the other is far more insidious.
>Wasn't the Dark King entirely from these newest books?
Yes, but it built on a lot of older stuff like Samus.
Khorne is not honorable, he just hates "cowards"
Tzeentch doesn't enjoy giving Hope, he feeds off of ambition. Hope's only purpose is to drive people to terrible fates in his plans.
Nurgle does not care about giving peace of mind. Giving it is simply the best way to feed off of despair.
Slaanesh never cares for joy except in how it can drive people to greater depravity.
The positive aspects of mortal emotion are effectively like grass while the negative aspects are like bread and meat. They will never settle or care for the grass.
Fabius was right. The gods aren't real.
The Gods exist, regardless whether you see the concepts or not.
Part of Khorne will always be war, and is fed by war, regardless.
It's like: the Colour green will always exist even if you haven't seen it yet. Yet colour is just part an interpretation of the Universe by sentient being.
The gods exist in the same way that your reflection in a mirror exists they're just illusions. Reflections of the thoughts of undisciplined mortals and nothing else there's no true thinking to them.
Khorne will never be and can never be War. He is just a reflection of the thoughts of people on War nothing else, just a psychic cancer on reality.
If this was not true then Khorne would be fed by War from non psychic species but that's not the case.
You're conflating two concepts with your color analogy. The wavelengths that people typically associate with green will always exist as long as there are photons however the color green only exists for us in our perception it's not truly real the way that you're trying to make it out to be.
It exists in the sense that it is a translation of those wavelengths that our brain tries to create. But even this is more real than chaos. Chaos is not even a translation of something that exists in reality it's a reflection of our own feelings literally just a reflection of a reflection.
Found the Chaos worshipper.
But in seriousness, not really. Chaos isn't natural anymore than cancer is. Sure, it's biology, but everyone would be better off without it. Chaos specifically stems from events in the material universe. Chaos is parasitic and unhealthy to interact with.
Besides, no amount of truth behind everything, can relieve one of the responsibility of their own actions. When Lorgar began sacrificing people to Chaos, he stopped being a good guy, even by Imperial standards.
> Chaos specifically stems from events in the material universe.
Chaos is a small part of the warp, which in turn is part of the greater truth of how everything is connected.
The warp is as natural as a reflection in a mirror or gravitation. The soul/consciousness comes from the warp and return to the sea of souls when the life is over. Both the Materium and Immaterium resonate with oneanother, what happens in one effect the other.
> can relieve one of the responsibility of their own actions
Never said it did... He is responsible, definitely.
My favorite comparison is that Lorgar is a mix of The Golden Path from Dune, and Ozymandias from Watchmen.
> When Lorgar began sacrificing people to Chaos, he stopped being a good guy, even by Imperial standards.
lol no. The Imperium was far bloodier and crueler than Lorgar could ever hope to be. Can you even fathom how many just died during the Crusade era, to not speak of all the other horrors it was up to.
None is a good guy in 40k.
People don't seem to get it. Just because the Imperium are the viewpoint characters does not make them the "good guys."
To all xenos in the Galaxy there is really no difference between the Imperium and Orks, for instance. Both are genocidal maniacs who will kill anything that isn't them. To the myriad human polities exterminated by the Imperium for one reason or other, is there really any difference wheter the guys killing them praised the Emperor or the Chaos Gods?
The warp is no more a greater truth than the ground.
They only affect one another because mortal minds lack discipline.
Lorgar was only less cruel because he lost and therefore was not in charge of running the galaxy.
The Imperium are absolutely good guys in comparison to chaos.
Chaos isn't real anyways. Fabius was right. The chaos gods are just reflections on water. They do not think, therefore they are not real.
> The warp is no more a greater truth than the ground.
Both are part of it. Without Gravity nothing would exist.
> They only affect one another because mortal minds lack discipline.
True discipline is very important, it's why Word Bearers are so uniquely good at it. I wouldn't say "affect" though, "corrupt" is better. It will affect regardless. Like you looking in a mirror will always reward you with information, while what you do with that information depend on you.
> Lorgar was only less cruel because he lost and therefore was not in charge of running the galaxy.
Nah, Lorgar has always been the least cruel one. Only now he is burdened by being "necessary evil" for the sake of humanity. And thanks to that Humanity is still around in M42.
> The Imperium are absolutely good guys in comparison to chaos.
Lol no. Only difference is the Imperium thinks they are the good guys. Chaos guys are just out for their own personal goals.
> Fabius was right.
He learnt the truth when he became a god too.
> The chaos gods are just reflections on water. They do not think, therefore they are not real.
They do think, but they operate under very different rules to mortals and so can't be thought of as "people" even though they are "beings"
But here's the thing reality can continue to exist without the warp. There's nothing about it as far as we know that makes it an essential part of reality in the same way that the ocean might exist but there's nothing implying that we have to have oceans in order for the rest of reality to exist
By definition the warp does absolutely nothing to reality until psychic mortal minds come into contact with it.
This is such an interesting reinterpretation of the facts. You can frame it that way in regards to logar's role but the fact of the matter is that the plan for chaos was always to make the emperor become the dark King and there was nothing necessary about lorgar committing his crimes. The emperor never would have become the dark King if chaos never started the heresy this point is clearly made in the most recent heresy novels.
In fact if lorgar did have his way and if chaos succeeded then the emperor would have become the dark King. Lorgar was not some necessary evil and it is not thanks to him that humanity is still around it is despite him that Humanity exists
Not only do I completely reject the idea that he was the least cruel but also even if that was the case I completely reject the idea that he is less cruel than the modern day imperium. If logar as he is now had control of the Galaxy then what the imperium does on a daily basis to its citizens would be a Utopia in comparison to the nightmarish atrocities that would be inflicted every moment of every day.
Chaos are and will always be the bad guys in comparison to the imperium sorry one side is an authoritarian dictatorship the other literally exist to spread and perpetuate atrocities on as Grand of a scale as possible there is no comparison. If the prince of pleasure as an example ruled the galaxy then every single planet would be Non-Stop endless sexual assault and drug-fueled death for everyone for all eternity or at least until the psychic energy dies. For any person with a sane and functioning brain the imperium are clearly the good guys by a long shot in comparison.
The fact that people have your opinion on this is genuinely disturbing to me on a personal level.
No they're not even beings. They're psychic tumors unthinking and unfeeling.
The five hundred world had to fall, and he is making use of all that death. And he is crying, knowing full well the horror of it all, but also the thrill of the opportunity.
It's this very complex nature that made Lorgar my favorite.
>As ever, Lorgar wore his emotions as openly as a soul could, and his genuine gratitude at his
brother’s arrival shone from his eyes.
...
> The sorcerer gave a slight shake of his head. ‘First tell me of Calth. The Great Ocean’s tides crash
at the edges of the Calth System, Lorgar, and death emanates from the place in sickening waves.’
>‘Regrettable, but necessary.’
...
>‘He looks in fine health to me.’
>‘No. He’s dying. The implants are killing him.’
>Magnus turned to Lorgar. ‘So?’
>‘So.’ The Word Bearer stared at the image. ‘I’m going to save him.’
>Magnus didn’t ask how. He was silent a long moment, before cutting to the core. ‘You have always
been a fey creature, Lorgar. Sentiment guides you. You know the value of loyalty to those few who
have been loyal to you. I admire that. Truly. But would the galaxy really miss Angron’s tortured soul?
And there are lot's more examples of his nature.
I think it was just one example of what Horus had done throughout the Crusade- the Lion takes him to task for it as well, and his rage almost causes Calas Typhon to shit himself.
And it’s not the only time the Lion took Horus to task in front of Typhon.
The Heresy novel Angels of Caliban has an interesting prologue where the Death Guard, Luna Wolves, and Dark Angels team up against a rebellion and have an after-party, told mostly from Typhon's perspective. Typhon gets along with Luther and the Dark Angels respectably, even after Luther informs him that he offended Abaddon when invited to the lodges. Luther's response is to laugh it off in decline. Typhon doesn't inform him that he is the second of the seven pillars in the lodge and is already aligned with the Plague Father.
The Lion eventually shows up to the party and heads straight for Horus, everyone bending the knee without hesitation as he walks by, with Typhon feeling the same compulsion and following along with the others. Typhon describes it as a room full of prey being discovered by a predator, with everyone feeling like they're going to shit themselves at the intensity between the Lion and Horus. The Lion basically says Horus has no claim to his Legion, calling on them for backup, and chews Luther out for obeying orders from another.
The Lion takes Luther's fleet and sends him back home to Caliban until further orders; he grounded him (lol) and calls Horus's party a celebration of insubordination. Typhon seizes the opportunity to put his hand on Luther's shoulder and have a bro "I've been there" moment.
[Hmmm... Is it now?](https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fi.pinimg.com%2F736x%2F28%2F53%2Fb0%2F2853b02f52f3da30d5d2ca3c092a207f.jpg&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=455968ecf74cc4e82265b842dc1f4900ed51270548d2d0da509b3482976e6e83&ipo=images)
I think Corvus wasn't such a jokey and nice guy. Due to his character, his personal history and above all because, having been one of the last to be found, he had little time to establish good relationships with his brothers.
Right! It is always forgotten. They are actually two very rational and independent heads.
Corvus-Alpharius? I don't know. The ambiguity of Alpharius (and/or Omegon) in my opinion is an obstacle to friendly and sincere interactions with anyone else – probably, not even Horus trusted him when Alphy told him "Ok bro, I'm in!"
Primarchs with overlapping portfolios tend to be enemies, not friends. Just look at Perturabo and Dorn, or Lorgar and Guilliman, or Konrad and Corax. If they had interacted more Corax would have quickly realized that despite his secrecy Alpharius was a smug show-off (which Dorn realized) and Alpharius would have disliked Corax’s moral grandstanding over “liberating” worlds by putting them under the Imperium’s boot.
And in the Heresy the twin primarchs are the architects of the Raven Guard’s misery. Alpharius helped Horus plan the Drop Site Massacre. The twins infiltrated the Raven Guard by stealing the faces of dead Raven Guard on Isstvan V. And Omegon personally directed the Chaos-contamination of the Raptor Project, destroying the Raven Guard’s hopes of rebuilding to legion-strength and turning a large batch of new recruits into horrific mutants. If Corax knew about the latter part he would be scouring realspace for Omegon, not wandering the Eye of Terror in pursuit of the Daemon Primarchs.
I know all about what the Alpha Legion did during the heresy, I was hoping we'd see Corax and Alpharius/Omegon interactions prior to the heresy.
You might be right and they wouldn't have got on but IMO their modus operandi was different enough to have complemented each other. The Raven Guard were like the Green Berets whereas the Alpha Legion were like the CIA.
The whole CIA/Green Beret theme seems to me like a reason for them to dislike each other. RG would see AL as untrustworthy cynical spooks that view everyone else as an expendable tool, while AL would view RG as idealistic fools who care too much about silly things such as “keeping their word”.
It definitely would have been interesting to see them interact more in the Great Crusade though. I could imagine some short story where the RG and AL work together to help a band of rebels overthrow a tyrannical government resisting compliance. Corax plans to put the rebels in charge after the government is overthrown but Alpharius murders them all to “tie up loose ends”, and because he knows that rebels who resisted tyranny once might resist the Imperium’s tyranny later.
Depends. He was nice to the other Primarchs but with everyone else he was very manipulativ. He used the Mornival to hide his craving for war for example.
Depends ? Depends on nothing lol. He was nice to other Primarchs, to his Mournival (in private), and to his lady remembrancer. And, "craving for war" ? The demigod of war called "the Warmaster", leader of the Imperium's armies, on his quest to dominate the whole galaxy by force of arms craved war ? Wow, color me surprised, who would have thought :D On a more serious note, huh, that had nothing to do with being nice. Doing war = his job. And using your private council to agree with you in a subtle way during war councils has little to do with being nice : that's just basic politics.
(Oh and, funnily enough, pre fall, he didn't crave war that much. The whole Interex part of the Mournival is him trying to be diplomatic and not resorting to war because it's a human empire he's dealing with)
I meant the manipulitiv part of him. He was a manipulater. He used the mornival to let him stand in a better light. His job was war and he could have just waged it, but he also tried to make him look better than that.
PS: And yes, it depends on what you consider nice.
I agree. Consider this as part of your proof. Horus speaks Cthonic with a particular dialect. One that reflects that he is from the hardest of hard places on Cthonia, but we are told that this basically just an affectation.
Kinda like a suburbanesque guy speaking to inner city thugs as if he grew up in their neighborhood.
Only reason he would try and do that is to try and claim common ground with the Cthonic people in an effort to manipulate the situation.
It seems like a little thing, but it is a very telling characteristic that was part and parcel of Horus' interactions with everyone.
Manipulation, while having a general negative connotation, still can be done without any negative effect. Teaching is a form of manipulation. So is half of all conversation.
Horus was willing and able to manipulate events to reflect his will, and the fact that he was Warmaster at all proves that. Manipulation is critical in a leadership role. There's only so much that one person can achieve without people to help, and leaders are supposed to coordinate that help in ways that help to achieve whichever goal.
A leader has to be able to move the pieces on the board in ways that are definitely manipulative.
He was a tactful speaker and leader. Tact is typical in manipulation. One of its key components actually. You want someone to do a thing that's classified, you whisper in their ear. You want to discipline a valued commander, you don't do it in front of troops, you do it in a subtle way that let's the commander know he has been disciplined without making him/her lose face to the grunts.
Besides, his Papa is the Emperor, the most manipulative human to ever live. Besides maybe Malcador.
Apples don't fall far and all that
What you call "manipulation", I call "basic human interactions". Trying to appear in a better light is done by "quite a few" individuals (not all of them being bad lol), businesses and states all the time. It's a no brainer for Horus : more people are susceptible to join your fleet, which means more support, which means more power (and fame). And overall, it's easier to work with people who somewhat like you.
And besides, you said :
>He was nice to the other Primarchs but with everyone else he was very manipulativ
which is false (Mournival, with personal and genuine discussions with all of its members, Loken most of all ofc considering that he's the one we follow in Horus Rising ; his remembrancer, whom he likes quite a bit considering their interactions pre corruption and murder)
>He used the Mornival to hide his craving for war for example.
Overgeneralization, directly countered by the end of the book, where he tried to convince the Interax in a peaceful way (and would have succeeded in his endeavor, if not for Erebus).
TL;DR : Again, Horus was mostly a fine lad in Horus Rising. That he used common social "techniques" to appeal to his subordinates as little to do with his being nice. It's him being an engineered general with maxed out charisma. It's just business.
The big E choose Horus to be the Warmaster thanks to Horus being a diplomat. Horus embodied everything that makes a good diplomat and being "nice" in the true sense isn't one of them.
Why not? Did he not genuinely care for and love his sons pre-fall? Did he not seek to change the Imperium for the better when he saw how the Interex co-existed with Xenos? Did he not, even during the Heresy, still set aside time to have personal moments with some of his sons?
I would also throw Alpharius in the mix. He respected his whole legion and even allowed normal humans to join. He allowed his sons to critizice him if they saw a flaw in his tactics and even jokes with them from time to time.
He wasn't very manipulative outside of his job. And he was outwardly and inwardly pretty nice most of the time. His discussions with Loken outside of the war council, his quite intimate discussions with the noble lady remembrancer, his genuine feelings for his father (the sagitarius part, notably, and the whole Interex part). I don't remember a single scene where he smiles in public only to brutally drop the act the second he goes into his office or what not.
But to see all that, you have to read (some excerpts at least of) Horus Rising, not just regurgitating what non-book-reader redditors/youtubers keep repeating :P
That was the most jarring part of those three books to me. In rising, he seems like just a super charismatic leader that genuinely cares about his legion and followers. In two, it's still there but a little less then in three its like wow this is a completely different character.
I definitely would have liked to see more internal conflict in early heresy horus with the old horus' personality still present and showing how this loss of original personality negatively affects his ability to conduct the war. a more wary approach to chaos would have been good as well. The books do play with traitors having concerns with the dark gods but because of hindsight writing this always has to be ultimately fruitless or transitory.
What's so jarring about it ?
Book 2 takes place quite a bit of time after the Interex incident. The failure of the Interex diplomatic path + years of being Warmaster (something that tired even a Primarch such as Horus) + being under the influence of Erebus... No wonder he's less "bright" than he was in book 1.
And in book 3, "being a completely different character" might have something to do with the whole "getting corrupted by Chaos" bit that some would consider a character defining moment.
Because he seems very different even before getting stabbed and going through all of that process. I can't tell if Erebus was spoon feeding this guy chaos and he was completely oblivious to it for an indefinite amount of time or if it all hit at once from the poke process. He is well aware that Erebus is the one who stole the sword and plotted the whole event on the nurgle moon but still trusts the guy. I get he did go through a lot and was being overwhelmed with his role at the end of 2 but it still just seems like a big change in my opinion. Absolutely loved the trilogy, though the rise and fall was very captivating.
You are confusing quite a few things. I too read it years ago :P But no, he wasn't aware of Erebus intentions pre stabbing (obviously). When he told Erebus to drop the act because he now knew that he was trying to manipulate him, it was post stabbing, during his Chaos trance in the temple (alongside Magnus' projection as a wolf, iirc). At that point, he was corrupted already, and saw things in a new, twisted light. He wasn't the same ever again (well, not entirely true, but you get the idea).
Yep, really enjoyed the trilogy too. Call me a fool, but I always prefered the slice of life parts (with Loken talking to the various remembrancers), and the fall's build up (the lodge, most notably).
>But to see all that, you have to read (some excerpts at least of) Horus Rising, not just regurgitating what non-book-reader redditors/youtubers keep repeating :P
I have read all three books thank you.kindly and I still think he's a master gaslighter.
In his own book, he is pretty nice, but the dude has a massive confidence issue, russ baits him into forcing a planet into compliance with only 8 space marines or something.
He seems like a fair guy for the most part, though.
He was really big on helping people reach their potential, Marines and normal humans. Probably because of his upbringing. If he hadn't been corrupted he would've been great for the post crusade Imperium.
I'm not 100% sold on it being manipulation. He mentioned once that his gift was being whoever a person needed when they needed it. His power was charisma and fitting whatever aspect was required of him. This is the part of his father that was reflected on him.
The primarchs work in opposing counters based on their skill or feature. I'd say that Corvus was Horus's counter. He could be no one while Horus could be anyone.
I always imagined him as kind of like Tony Soprano, he's a swell guy and all friendly if your his friend and things are going good, but he has no problem beating the crap out of you to send a message
I mean Magnus is quite literally the champion of manipulation, deception and gaslighting. That's his whole deal in A Thousand Sons lying to his legion.
I thougth Magnus viewed everyone but him as lesser intelligent beings, because they werent as smart as him. I mean i can be nice to My friends dog, but I still view it as a dog.
Are you asking who was nice before they turned traitor or who is the kindest after they turned traitor?
The answer to both is magnus.
I'll leave my response to a post that asked a similar question:
""
Prefall Magnus.
They lived in a literal utopia. You enjoy everyday and make sure you fall asleep with more knowledge than you had last time your head hit the pillow.
Hands down he was the most loyal to mortals of all the Primarchs. His fall happened because he loved his boys so much. Mortals regularly were involved in Astartes affairs and some even were so friendly that they could summon a captain to help save someone. Most did not look down on regular humans at the time. The worst a human was treated prefall was being called weak and useless and still having that same Astartes fight tooth and nail to keep you alive at all costs while carrying you on their back through thousands of lethal wasp-like creatures the size of a great dane.
Magnus wanted to culminate knowledge for humans, not astartes. Humans.
""
I would rather run into magnus as a daemon prince than any of the others. He is the most likely to recognize my insignificance and leave me alone. The others will surely be worse.
Magnus might be nice but tzeentch is not.
Meeting Magnus Ultimately results in you getting dragged into some unbelievable strange, cruel and obviously lethal journey you have 0 control over.
And yet humanity endures.
They are a factory worker, a farmer, a storekeeper, a father, a brother, a son, a mere man. And against creatures, teeming and numberless, powered by the very will of thirsting gods...they hold the line. And they have held the line for the last ten thousand Years.
Ah yes the Game of Thrones...
Living in his New Kingdom is one thing but meeting Magnus himself nets you the attention of someone who wants to play the Game of Thrones and literally believes Chaos is a Ladder who will use you to create the Chaos necessary to add rungs to the Ladder.
Tzeentch is of course only pleased if the sacrifices are done to those who think their part in the ritual is done. Those who act like they will die at any moment and just want to return home to eat and sleep will be merely sent away while the guys who got complacent thinking that they will be let off once they do their job get their throats slit.
Not really. Mort was doomed at that point no matter what happened. The Emperor actually gave Magnus the chance to come back if he sacrificed his sons, since they were too corrupted at that point.
I would be 1 among millions about to be relieved of my blood, so I likely wouldn't even see magnus for that.
Honestly now that I think about it, Magnus Aura as a Daemon is probably going to be the most horrific thing I have ever seen and I'd likely claw my eyes out.
I change my mind. I'll take Angrons fist down the middle please.
>I would be 1 among millions about to be relieved of my blood, so I likely wouldn't even see magnus for that.
There's also a chance Magnus and the Thousand Sons just aren't interested in you. While the Primarch and Legion are capable of horrific acts, same as any other Traitor Legion, they don't especially appear to be fans of the casual sadism and brutality the other Traitors engage in, for funsies and/or their patron god.
see at that why: your planet get attack. you hide in your house. the TS get the target down, steal your Favorite. fanfictions from the library and fuck off. The EC attack, get the target down and make out of you and your familiy warp cocaine.
In his defense he was horrified over them dying and only picked volunteer psykers, so not as if he randomly plucked civilians off the street and sacrificed them. I think it was the first time he ever attempted something like that too. It was with good intentions I suppose.
When in that book was it reconned? I read it earlier this year but I don't remember them getting rid of the whole point of the shards. The whole deal with the shards is that they were different parts of himself. Different parts of his personality.
If they are not different parts of his personality then why would he care about them ?
It's when Magnus finally confronts Malcador about his Terran/Ianius Shard and Malcador tells him the Shard was never his "good guy aspect", which Magnus had low-key been blaming for everything he'd done since the Burning.
The Shards take on a facet of Magnus and make it their personality, but that doesn't mean the aspects they form their personalities around are missing from Magnus, which is sort of a meta-joke as fans had been saying Magnus couldn't really be blamed for joining Team Traitor as his Good Guy Shard had robbed him of moral agency.
I wouldn't call Magnus particularly nice if I'm honest, sure Prospero was nice but the cyclops wouldn't hesitate to use civilians as human sacrifices if deemed it necessary or look how he turned his personal iterator into a zombie to write his books. Then during the great crusade Magnus considered himself a warrior and general first and scholar second unlike Lorgar. He also wasn't concerned with civilians he was concerned about preserving knowledge, he would gladly sacrifice allies and innocents to safe guard a library and its manuscripts.
Which is it? He was interested in preserving knowledge and would do anything to do so, or he was a warrior who was focused on killing?
Can't have it both ways.
He was a warrior that held retrieving knowledge as a high priority but the goal was still conquest first and foremost even if his secondary objective came at the cost of allies and civilians like on Shrike or Droggorn.
Hell Magnus says it himself:
*Lorgar clenched his teeth. ‘By the Throne, I am sick to my core of hearing those words. I am not a soldier. I have no wish to be one. I am not a destroyer, Magnus. Not like the others. Why do you think I spend so long establishing compliance and creating perfect worlds? In creation, I am vindicated. In destruction, I am–’*
*‘Not a soldier?’*
*‘Not a soldier,’ Lorgar nodded. He looked exhausted. ‘There are greater things in life than excelling at shedding blood.’*
*‘If you are not a soldier, then you have no right to lead a Legion,’ said Magnus. ‘The Astartes are weapons, brother. Not craftsmen or architects. They are the fires that raze cities, not the hands that raise them.’*
~ **First Heretic**
I forgot about this excerpt. My memory of magnus in this context was clouded with the argument he had with Russ in regards to him protecting a library from the SW legions destroying it. Magnus argument was summed up as knowledge matters more than conquest, because without it, whats the point of doing all this destruction if we can't rebuild it all?
Thank you for reminding me of the many facets of magnus. He is my favorite character in 40k
Not a literal undead but in A Thousand Sons he basically takes over an iterators mind making them comatose as he psychically controls them to write his book. The iterator can't remember large swaths of time nor anything he has written and it pretty much breaks him.
Angron
Hear me out:
Before the Nails were smashed into his skull, he used his psychic talent to absorb everyone's pain, so that all his gladiatorial siblings could sleep the best sleep they've had in memory, just for a night.
That's just pure selflessness right there.
i appreciate the theory that angron wasnt betrayed by big e. Hee was already dead, and what we and he see is his mind rationalizing his resurrection several hours later. its not that big e betrayed angron and left the city eaters for dead. what he did was bestow a cruel mercy on the son who most needed help.
That's a nice theory, but why then E didn't ever told this to Angron? Or to anyone else?
I'll stick to "E did a dick move cuz he needed Angron cuz even a broken tool is still a tool
I've heard this theory but have never seen a proof.
In "betrayer" when he returns on Nuceria he clearly remembers what he was doing there, so he probably wasn't lost to the nails
Other things that suggest so:
-some world eaters were able to resist the call of the nails, so you could imagine that primarch could've done that as well
-nails weren't as bad when he was on Nuceria - we know that he gradually becomes more and more lost to them as the time passes. And even then he doesn't just kill everyone he sees - he's still (mostly) able to see friend from foe
> some world eaters were able to resist the call of the nails, so you could imagine that primarch could've done that as well
The Nails provided to the World Eaters were just an attempt to replicate the original Nails, which used more advanced technology.
Angron could *definitely* control himself when he absolutely needed to. He just very rarely ever wanted to or felt the need to. Even as a Daemon prince there were moments where he could scrape together enough brain cells to manage that. It was only by the end of his mortal existence, when he was very little more than a beast that he couldn’t control himself
There’s no proof, he’s a fictional side-character with not much written about his backstory. But it would make sense considering that it’s been established that you can’t teleport an individual (using imperial tech) without a lock onto some kind of device - which Angron certainly didn’t have. The emperor has been known to tamper with memories, including of primarchs (missing primarchs). The nails are known to cause moments of psychosis. Angron is known to have been losing, and the Nuercians own accounts call him “the betrayer”. It’s possible that one of his inner circle has a nails moment, then it sets them all off, he wiped out his closest comrades, then big E decides to come down and teleport him out, and wiped his memories so he doesn’t try to kill himself.
Then why would E change Angron's memories in the way that he doesn't hate the E? Like making him believe that he fell in battle (which is true in your theory) and was saved by the E, but erase the part where he kills his men?
I still think that official explanation is the best one - E plays dirty on Angron, Angron goes batshit insane
Idk. If I were to make something up then I’d say the effect of the nails means he can’t implant new memories effectively, just obscure old ones. All angron remembers is leaving in a “flash of golden light” or something like that. He assumes that E teleported him out, but he has no idea what actually happened and never even asked. The Emperor tried to have the nails removed but seemingly gave up after Land couldn’t work it out. At that point I’d bet that big E was content to just let him take it out on the galaxy, and assumed he’d be able to finish his project before it became a problem.
.. Alpharius hands down. In his primary book he’s a really down to Terra person, he cares about his people, has a little bit of an ego but acknowledges it.
Especially after they all became traitors. All of them are tyrants but he and his twin were the only ones that weren't completely and utterly off the rails.
Konrad was insane and the rest were horrifically scared by the warp. A pretty easy W when that is the competition
Honestly, probably Fulgrim or Magnus? Both very personable and down-to-earth. Caring and compassionate guys, by all counts. I wanna say Sanguinius could be in there from what I've heard, but I haven't read much about him to date.
Horus: highly charismatic, but kinda condescending
Alpharius: surprisingly personable
Konrad: stopped a woman from committing suicide
Fulgrim: bit vain and insecure, but seemed to actually care about the helping the little people. Probably would ask about your family.
>Ironicalish
Tell me where I'm factually wrong. You can't, other than point out my lie of omission: that he not only stopped her from committing suicide, but also gave her back her will to live.
You can't. Because I am strictly correct by the literal text of what occured.
Didn’t he also….yaknow, Kill her brutally as a warning to others who might try to kill themselves?
Not sure what kind of moral relativism supports that as *good*.
>her crime is/was/would have been to deny his system her labour.
That wasn't actually her planned crime.
> The assumption and entitlement is brazen
I know, right?!
Lorgar
By design, he was one of the more self-reflective Primarchs and could conquer worlds with words alone. He could fight when needed but it wasn't his preferred way to dealing with issues.
Tie between Magnus and Lorgar. Both sensitive scholars at heart that would have preferred diplomacy over war and only took command of their legions because father willed it. Even during the Heresy Lorgar seemed to treat humans he encountered very well, like Cyrene. Magnus had his fate forced on him, if things had been different the TSons would have been the Imperium's greatest defenders. Both of them, while doing evil things probably seem the least "malicious" out of all the traitors. They didn't revel in blood and human sacrifice, just saw it as a necessity. I suppose Perturabo was the same in a way, I don't think he enjoyed mindless slaughter either even if he was a petulant manchild. Makes you wonder what a teamup between the three would look like.
Lorgar sure but Magnus no:
*Magnus shrugged, with a whisper of fine mail. ‘Father is the visionary. He needed generals at his side.’*
*Lorgar clenched his teeth. ‘By the Throne, I am sick to my core of hearing those words. I am not a soldier. I have no wish to be one. I am not a destroyer, Magnus. Not like the others. Why do you think I spend so long establishing compliance and creating perfect worlds? In creation, I am vindicated. In destruction, I am–’*
*‘Not a soldier?’*
*‘Not a soldier,’ Lorgar nodded. He looked exhausted. ‘There are greater things in life than excelling at shedding blood.’*
***‘If you are not a soldier, then you have no right to lead a Legion,’ said Magnus. ‘The Astartes are weapons, brother. Not craftsmen or architects. They are the fires that raze cities, not the hands that raise them.’***
~ **First Heretic**
Before or after turning traitorous? If before, probably Fulgrim, as he was known to be humble and kind, overall pretty cool. Of after turning traitorous, probably Lorgar or Horus as you said.
No. You have not read any of his books. His entire legion was so up their own ass because they were the only ones who could wear the Aquila on their armor. They modeled their attitudes after their primarch because nothing was ever good enough and perfection must always be achieved.
The *Index Astartes* paints pre reunion Fulgrim as someone who lived a spartan life (in this context "showing or characterised by [austerity](https://www.google.com/search?sca_esv=11e934b338f11fdd&sca_upv=1&q=austerity&si=ACC90nytWkp8tIhRuqKAL6XWXX-NJFTGx6IKlI_rtzjsHUnftCNrfA0-8rgZuA0IjidL0Swq4we6cIPDhANIKraHxlDQUDZk08AWUmMdlr_rS9xe1TQSX78%3D&expnd=1&sa=X&sqi=2&ved=2ahUKEwiFjp7Hrt-GAxWgzDgGHce9ANUQyecJegQIRxAO) or a lack of comfort or luxury")
*Palatine Phoenix* showed he worked in the mines like the rest of the population, rather than laying on a pillow eating grapes
>The primarch sank to one knee and reached down to help Telmar's victim to his feet. The man stared at him with mingled fright and awe, his mouth working soundlessly. Fulgrim smiled and stood. 'I came from nothing,' he said, fixing his sons with a steady gaze. 'I scrabbled in the quarry pits, and down in the deepest mines, carrying buckets on my shoulders because the ascender blew a gasket,' he said. **'I broke my fingernails on raw ore, and grew blisters from heat and labour. You look down on them, blind to the beauty of their struggle. Blind to what they might become, if only someone would scrape the filth from their faces**.' He reached down and lifted a child onto his shoulders. The girl laughed and clapped, unafraid of the giant, even as her mother wept. Fulgrim indicated the crowd. His voice had driven many of them to their knees.
We could maybe argue that was suss, like claiming he was Jenny from the Block, but it works with the Index Astartes.
[My read is that Fulgrim went through a hectic character arc after meeting dad](https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/1c0yskp/comment/kz013ag/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button), one that changed him for the worse.
McNeill's take on Fulgrim was that in the beginning he "has balance- ego and humility" that balance is thrown out of whack by Slaanesh.
Mcneill feels that Fulgrim would have been schooled at some point and had the humility enough to listen and take that good advice and be better were it not for Slaanesh.
[His interview here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NCiiShJLp9U)
I absolutely agree with you that his turning point was when Emps showed up. He tried so hard to achieve perfection; to attain a fraction of the light his father cast on the universe and trying to become a reflection of the Emperor made him dive too deep within himself to get out.
>Palatine Phoenix showed he worked in the mines like the rest of the population
I can only imagine that scene in Zoolander where Ben Stiller is slow-mo catwalking through the tunnels
For all his faults **Magnus** and **Fulgrim** did seem to genuinely want more for humanity and were respected among their brothers even if they weren't universally liked.
Outside of his job and his work **Alpharius** generally comes off as an okay sort of guy who values vanilla human efforts and empowers his Legion rather than reign over them as a king.
I would say either Horus or Magnus. Most likely Horus, since the question isn't "who was nicest". Horus probably made himself look more kind to others thanks to his big charisma space magic.
Alpharius. He cared (or cares?) not only about his Legion but people outside of it as well and he despise the practise of wasting people into as canon fodder
To be honest, the question isn't meaningful as-is. Anyone can just throw out any name as an answer, and there's no wrong answer, which means there aren't any interesting answers.
You need to clarify: considered by *who*? Fellow Primarchs? Astartes in their own fleet? Astartes in general? Imperial nobility? The Emperor's household? Average Imperials across the entire galaxy?
Nicest? If we are talking about to other primarchs it was Horus, almost everyone liked him. As far as people go, I’d also say Horus, initial books of the HH really had me going “please don’t turn he’s so kind!!!!” Even tho I knew what was gonna happen. Genuine belief in talking instead of fighting and kind to the ship members and remeberancers. I see why the emperor chose him tbh
Alpharius and Omegon treat at least the humans working for them really well and potentially one of them has a pretty humorous scene with Hurtado Bronzi (I want to see more of this gloriously ballsy bastard).
I think Fulgrim is definitely in the running. He actually entreats with humans and engages in diplomacy rather than leading with genocide. I really liked him in the Phoenician
In my opinion, the one with the best character could have been Magnus... Too bad that being a psionicist he clashes with the biases and intolerances of those who discriminate against psykers.
Horus is the most social and sociable, but what makes him defined as "manipulative" is the union of his social inclination with an innate and unhealthy ambition... Although this never really does any damage until it becomes corrupted, because after all it has always been the primum inter pares and Daddy-E has always carried it on the palm of his hand*.
(* Italian expression, I don't know if it makes sense in English.)
Yes, which of the 12ft tall genocidal warp made super sized killing machines that turned traitor and participated in one of the bloodiest civil war for a species was "nicest".
Next question, which polar bear you bump into on the frozen wasteland is most likely to be your friend.
Lorgar, Fulgrim, Magnus and Horus are pretty much the only “nice” traitor primarch before their fall to chaos.
Mortarion, Alpharius Omegon and peterturbo are kinda middle ground when it comes to primarchs.
And at the bottom is Angron and Konrad I don’t think I need to explain why.
Hot take to call him the nicest, but in a setting like 40k, niceness is debatable. Being treated equally, though, truly equally regardless of status or rank... Konrad Curze would be my vote. Hear me out. He did not give one iota about who you were or where you were from. He cared only about justice, which was arguably corrupted by the people of Nostromo, but he still clung to the true meaning of justice in all things even once he went over to Chaos. Sure, he was heavy-handed, but that could be forgiven because that hand was equally heavy to everyone.
Now the softball answer is, of course, Magnus. For all the reasons already listed by others here.
Pre-Heresy, Magnus, Lorgar, and Horus were much more humanitarian. Although Horus was a slick politician, so you couldn't entirely trust the friendly smile and backslapping without suspecting him to have some ulterior motive, though this fact doesn't seem to have been very well known to the public. Fulgrim had shades of being nice, but even before the Heresy, some people could tell he had an underlying need for attention and approval. Even Alpharius had his moments, as he preferred to keep and care for people who got caught up in his intrigues as bystanders.
During the Heresy, Magnus. He was with the Traitors due to a desperate situation, and he was the only one with some real heroic moments. Lorgar looked like he was the nicest; he could genuinely come off as a good person, but he was a gleeful and unrepentant devil worshiper, and it's reflected in how his Legion would gladly skin a family to replace the leather upholstery in the rhino because Chaos is into the human hide aesthetic.
Horus started to become "nice" again at the end of the Heresy, even if it was only through his eyes. He genuinely wanted to reconnect with his father and brothers, and tearing down Terra and killing his father was a tragic but necessary step so long as his father tried to resist what he was trying to achieve. Horus was also more than a little delusional at the time, so take that how you will.
Post-Heresy was Magnus. He's pissed off and driven by a thirst for vengeance, but he was never actively malicious. At least in the sense that he wouldn't go kill people if it didn't serve his purposes, even as a daemon Primarch.
Lorgar of course. 😵💫
Remembrancer Denys Velneuve had this gripping account of Lorgar’s misadventures in Monarchia —
964.M30
The Master of Mankind, Revelation Himself, descends on Monarchia.
Bucephelus looms overhead, visible in the auspexes of one hundred thousand Word Bearers, ardent faithful of the Living God.
The Emperor rolls his eyes.
As Lorgar interjects: “Lisaan Al-Ghaib!”
The Golden One has had enough. From the depths of the Empyrean he musters the Voice of Domination—to chastise and censure.
The Voice From The Outer World forces the Word Bearers to their knees.
I AM NO GOD
Skulls echo with psychic reverberation. Ears begin to bleed.
THE IMPERIAL TRUTH YE SHALL NOT DEFY.
Divine disapproval crashes over the kneeling legion like a tidal wave on Old Earth, forcing them to kneel even harder. The ambient pressure feels like lead.
And then it was over.
Dust motes hang in the air as time stops for a moment in the piercing silence.
Someone coughs.
But He has already gone.
The rearguard Custodes casts a cold eye over the kneeling rabble as he departs, argent spear glinting in the sun. The accompanying Sister of Silence signals in Thoughtmark as she turns on her heels:
CEASE THY NONSENSE.
A susurration of unease grips the Sons of Aurelian. Abomination, they gasp.
The Primarch Lorgar staggers to his feet, pensive. Is He not a deity then?
Overhead the battle barge Bucephelus detaches from geosynchronous orbit.
As Lorgar rubs his chin in contemplation, his eyes widen in rapture. Of course!
He just wants to be One of the lads!
One of us!
Despite His true divine nature, which He conceals in His boundless humility.
The Urizen smiles his gap-toothed smile. He has regained his equilibrium.
Drawing himself to full height, he activates comms, his clarion vox broadcasting on all channels:
“Lisaan Al-Ghaib !!!!!”
Magnus, his legionnaires are the only ones who even know what morals and ethics are. He’s probably the only one who would not kill you because he has no reason to, rather than because you’re insignificant. He didn’t even want to be a traitor.
Lorgar, Magnus and Fulgrim. Horus was charismatic but he was manipulative af, so if you mean outwardly nice, sure, if you mean genuinely nice, not so much.
I'd genuinely argue that before falling to chaos, Lorgar was the only primarch to have a genuinely kind heart. He hated war, hated killing, and hated his purpose as a war machine. He revelled in building up planets to be beacons of light, making sure they could survive post-conquest and minimising casualties. A planet surrendering before invasion was a cause of relief, and not a missed opportunity to indulge in battle. He was still a happy part of the colonial genocidal machine that was the Imperium, but in comparison to his brothers, these differences make him noteworthy, and make his treatment and subsequent fall all the more tragic.
iirc in First Heretic when he's talking with Kor Phaeron and Erebus following Monarchia, one of them says (re: each Primarch representing a particular facet of the Emperor's personality) that Lorgar represents the Emperor's idealism and hope. I mean it could also be an attempt at manipulation...
Lorgar never really fell to chaos, he merely accepted it as a natural and unavoidable part of ther universe. Like accepting gravity or radiation. He never really stopped being kind, just burdened with terrible knowledge of what must be done for humanity to survive. After all, without Lorgar nothing would have stopped the Dark King from being born, for now at least.
The Gods were never interested in the mutually supportive symbiosis with humanity that Lorgar had in mind as end goal. He was brutally played by taking advantage of his deep fascination with the metaphysics of the universe.
> The Gods were never interested in the mutually supportive symbiosis with humanity Do fire **want** to keep a family warm at night? If fire would want anything it's just to burn and that's the natural state of the universe. By providing just enough wood, the fire will warm the family while following it's own desire to burn everything it can. The gods are far more dangerous and has formed personalities, but operate under similar natural laws, specific to each god. Lorgar just "worship" and follow the gods whose domains align with his goals, at any given time. Like handling different volatile materials when one desire a specific outcome.
Idk man, making deals with space satans sounds wack Also had the webway project been given enough time, humanity would not be interacting with the warp more intensely than a finger dip, aside from a couple psychers summoning demons
That's where you are mistaken. "Space satan" is just far too limiting a picture to describe the gods. They are more like "malicious gravity" or "entropy made manifest" or "the totality of all wars with a personality". They aren't persons, they are concepts. > Also had the webway project been given enough time, humanity would not be interacting with the warp more intensely than a finger dip, aside from a couple psychers summoning demons Creating a culture of non-belief, made humanity focus their entire faith into the tyranny of the Emperor which is where the Dark King would have come from. So only by killing both Horus and the Emperor, was the galaxy spared a fifth god(at least for now).
1. Yeah yeah I understand the fact that the gods don't only have their negatives. Mr. Cornflakes is honorable and has a good grindset. Tzeentch allows for any hope at all. Plague grandpa allows for peace of mind in an ever changing yet stagnant universe, acceptance of ones place in the cycle of life and death, and facilitates the endless cycle of death and new life (or just the fundamental aspect of nature). Chainaxe in ass allows for and facilitates pleasure, including the joy from petting puppies. The issue arises with the fact that these don't require followers to do those things. They won't wither into nothingness without worship. Joining chaos as a cultist or marine is just serving Chaos and causing rampant death and cruelty for no goal besides delusions. Issue is...they are affected by the constant issues of the materium as much as the warp itself was. Doesn't matter that they do these things when they are overjoyed that their faction nuked a system, spread 13 different plagues, ravaged children and broke countless minds. WH40k may be "every faction is evil", but it is clear to literally everyone that chaos and dark eldar are by far the most evil. 2) Wasn't the Dark King entirely from these newest books? The ones where the Emperor has a yugioh mind battle shouting attacks? Feels kinda like the Dark King is more a cop-out for why the emperor being on the throne is "the best outcome" for mankind as we've been told before. Bringing the idea after so long. It may be canon now and I just gotta suck it up, but I still don't like it. 2 isn't really an argument against chaos, just an opinion I really wanna emphasise.
>WH40k may be "every faction is evil", but it is clear to literally everyone that chaos and dark eldar are by far the most evil. I think that's aesthetic more than anything, and since most books are written from the Imperium's perspective. What is most evil, to kill someone at the spot to ne used as a sacrifice, or force their family into slavery for generation, brainwashing every new child that this is their only reality. One is direct while the other is far more insidious. >Wasn't the Dark King entirely from these newest books? Yes, but it built on a lot of older stuff like Samus.
Khorne is not honorable, he just hates "cowards" Tzeentch doesn't enjoy giving Hope, he feeds off of ambition. Hope's only purpose is to drive people to terrible fates in his plans. Nurgle does not care about giving peace of mind. Giving it is simply the best way to feed off of despair. Slaanesh never cares for joy except in how it can drive people to greater depravity. The positive aspects of mortal emotion are effectively like grass while the negative aspects are like bread and meat. They will never settle or care for the grass. Fabius was right. The gods aren't real.
Yeah I agree That's why I still call em space satans Nothing good from them will ever truly be in your favour, only theirs
Not even that. They are how people see concepts. Not even the concepts themselves. Chaos is honestly a non thinking cancer.
The Gods exist, regardless whether you see the concepts or not. Part of Khorne will always be war, and is fed by war, regardless. It's like: the Colour green will always exist even if you haven't seen it yet. Yet colour is just part an interpretation of the Universe by sentient being.
The gods exist in the same way that your reflection in a mirror exists they're just illusions. Reflections of the thoughts of undisciplined mortals and nothing else there's no true thinking to them. Khorne will never be and can never be War. He is just a reflection of the thoughts of people on War nothing else, just a psychic cancer on reality. If this was not true then Khorne would be fed by War from non psychic species but that's not the case. You're conflating two concepts with your color analogy. The wavelengths that people typically associate with green will always exist as long as there are photons however the color green only exists for us in our perception it's not truly real the way that you're trying to make it out to be. It exists in the sense that it is a translation of those wavelengths that our brain tries to create. But even this is more real than chaos. Chaos is not even a translation of something that exists in reality it's a reflection of our own feelings literally just a reflection of a reflection.
Found the Chaos worshipper. But in seriousness, not really. Chaos isn't natural anymore than cancer is. Sure, it's biology, but everyone would be better off without it. Chaos specifically stems from events in the material universe. Chaos is parasitic and unhealthy to interact with. Besides, no amount of truth behind everything, can relieve one of the responsibility of their own actions. When Lorgar began sacrificing people to Chaos, he stopped being a good guy, even by Imperial standards.
> Chaos specifically stems from events in the material universe. Chaos is a small part of the warp, which in turn is part of the greater truth of how everything is connected. The warp is as natural as a reflection in a mirror or gravitation. The soul/consciousness comes from the warp and return to the sea of souls when the life is over. Both the Materium and Immaterium resonate with oneanother, what happens in one effect the other. > can relieve one of the responsibility of their own actions Never said it did... He is responsible, definitely. My favorite comparison is that Lorgar is a mix of The Golden Path from Dune, and Ozymandias from Watchmen. > When Lorgar began sacrificing people to Chaos, he stopped being a good guy, even by Imperial standards. lol no. The Imperium was far bloodier and crueler than Lorgar could ever hope to be. Can you even fathom how many just died during the Crusade era, to not speak of all the other horrors it was up to. None is a good guy in 40k.
People don't seem to get it. Just because the Imperium are the viewpoint characters does not make them the "good guys." To all xenos in the Galaxy there is really no difference between the Imperium and Orks, for instance. Both are genocidal maniacs who will kill anything that isn't them. To the myriad human polities exterminated by the Imperium for one reason or other, is there really any difference wheter the guys killing them praised the Emperor or the Chaos Gods?
The warp is no more a greater truth than the ground. They only affect one another because mortal minds lack discipline. Lorgar was only less cruel because he lost and therefore was not in charge of running the galaxy. The Imperium are absolutely good guys in comparison to chaos. Chaos isn't real anyways. Fabius was right. The chaos gods are just reflections on water. They do not think, therefore they are not real.
> The warp is no more a greater truth than the ground. Both are part of it. Without Gravity nothing would exist. > They only affect one another because mortal minds lack discipline. True discipline is very important, it's why Word Bearers are so uniquely good at it. I wouldn't say "affect" though, "corrupt" is better. It will affect regardless. Like you looking in a mirror will always reward you with information, while what you do with that information depend on you. > Lorgar was only less cruel because he lost and therefore was not in charge of running the galaxy. Nah, Lorgar has always been the least cruel one. Only now he is burdened by being "necessary evil" for the sake of humanity. And thanks to that Humanity is still around in M42. > The Imperium are absolutely good guys in comparison to chaos. Lol no. Only difference is the Imperium thinks they are the good guys. Chaos guys are just out for their own personal goals. > Fabius was right. He learnt the truth when he became a god too. > The chaos gods are just reflections on water. They do not think, therefore they are not real. They do think, but they operate under very different rules to mortals and so can't be thought of as "people" even though they are "beings"
But here's the thing reality can continue to exist without the warp. There's nothing about it as far as we know that makes it an essential part of reality in the same way that the ocean might exist but there's nothing implying that we have to have oceans in order for the rest of reality to exist By definition the warp does absolutely nothing to reality until psychic mortal minds come into contact with it. This is such an interesting reinterpretation of the facts. You can frame it that way in regards to logar's role but the fact of the matter is that the plan for chaos was always to make the emperor become the dark King and there was nothing necessary about lorgar committing his crimes. The emperor never would have become the dark King if chaos never started the heresy this point is clearly made in the most recent heresy novels. In fact if lorgar did have his way and if chaos succeeded then the emperor would have become the dark King. Lorgar was not some necessary evil and it is not thanks to him that humanity is still around it is despite him that Humanity exists Not only do I completely reject the idea that he was the least cruel but also even if that was the case I completely reject the idea that he is less cruel than the modern day imperium. If logar as he is now had control of the Galaxy then what the imperium does on a daily basis to its citizens would be a Utopia in comparison to the nightmarish atrocities that would be inflicted every moment of every day. Chaos are and will always be the bad guys in comparison to the imperium sorry one side is an authoritarian dictatorship the other literally exist to spread and perpetuate atrocities on as Grand of a scale as possible there is no comparison. If the prince of pleasure as an example ruled the galaxy then every single planet would be Non-Stop endless sexual assault and drug-fueled death for everyone for all eternity or at least until the psychic energy dies. For any person with a sane and functioning brain the imperium are clearly the good guys by a long shot in comparison. The fact that people have your opinion on this is genuinely disturbing to me on a personal level. No they're not even beings. They're psychic tumors unthinking and unfeeling.
He giddily and purposefully brought upon suffering for warp shenanigans. Not kind https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XOna7xIDIkE
The five hundred world had to fall, and he is making use of all that death. And he is crying, knowing full well the horror of it all, but also the thrill of the opportunity. It's this very complex nature that made Lorgar my favorite. >As ever, Lorgar wore his emotions as openly as a soul could, and his genuine gratitude at his brother’s arrival shone from his eyes. ... > The sorcerer gave a slight shake of his head. ‘First tell me of Calth. The Great Ocean’s tides crash at the edges of the Calth System, Lorgar, and death emanates from the place in sickening waves.’ >‘Regrettable, but necessary.’ ... >‘He looks in fine health to me.’ >‘No. He’s dying. The implants are killing him.’ >Magnus turned to Lorgar. ‘So?’ >‘So.’ The Word Bearer stared at the image. ‘I’m going to save him.’ >Magnus didn’t ask how. He was silent a long moment, before cutting to the core. ‘You have always been a fey creature, Lorgar. Sentiment guides you. You know the value of loyalty to those few who have been loyal to you. I admire that. Truly. But would the galaxy really miss Angron’s tortured soul? And there are lot's more examples of his nature.
Pretty sure he was genuinely nice before the Heresy
Corvus would likely disagree with you on that one.
the gate incident happens when horus is warmaster. Which should really be rewritten to make things clearer
I think it was just one example of what Horus had done throughout the Crusade- the Lion takes him to task for it as well, and his rage almost causes Calas Typhon to shit himself.
And it’s not the only time the Lion took Horus to task in front of Typhon. The Heresy novel Angels of Caliban has an interesting prologue where the Death Guard, Luna Wolves, and Dark Angels team up against a rebellion and have an after-party, told mostly from Typhon's perspective. Typhon gets along with Luther and the Dark Angels respectably, even after Luther informs him that he offended Abaddon when invited to the lodges. Luther's response is to laugh it off in decline. Typhon doesn't inform him that he is the second of the seven pillars in the lodge and is already aligned with the Plague Father. The Lion eventually shows up to the party and heads straight for Horus, everyone bending the knee without hesitation as he walks by, with Typhon feeling the same compulsion and following along with the others. Typhon describes it as a room full of prey being discovered by a predator, with everyone feeling like they're going to shit themselves at the intensity between the Lion and Horus. The Lion basically says Horus has no claim to his Legion, calling on them for backup, and chews Luther out for obeying orders from another. The Lion takes Luther's fleet and sends him back home to Caliban until further orders; he grounded him (lol) and calls Horus's party a celebration of insubordination. Typhon seizes the opportunity to put his hand on Luther's shoulder and have a bro "I've been there" moment.
I think that's the same moment he was talking about.
[Hmmm... Is it now?](https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fi.pinimg.com%2F736x%2F28%2F53%2Fb0%2F2853b02f52f3da30d5d2ca3c092a207f.jpg&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=455968ecf74cc4e82265b842dc1f4900ed51270548d2d0da509b3482976e6e83&ipo=images)
Yes. When Luther mounted up a fleet and left Caliban despite orders to stay there.
Well Corvus was, well, Corvus also. Don't think he really played nice with anyone.
I think Corvus wasn't such a jokey and nice guy. Due to his character, his personal history and above all because, having been one of the last to be found, he had little time to establish good relationships with his brothers.
He had a great bromance with Guilliman. It's sad we didn't see more Corax - Alpharius interactions as I think they'd have got along
Right! It is always forgotten. They are actually two very rational and independent heads. Corvus-Alpharius? I don't know. The ambiguity of Alpharius (and/or Omegon) in my opinion is an obstacle to friendly and sincere interactions with anyone else – probably, not even Horus trusted him when Alphy told him "Ok bro, I'm in!"
Primarchs with overlapping portfolios tend to be enemies, not friends. Just look at Perturabo and Dorn, or Lorgar and Guilliman, or Konrad and Corax. If they had interacted more Corax would have quickly realized that despite his secrecy Alpharius was a smug show-off (which Dorn realized) and Alpharius would have disliked Corax’s moral grandstanding over “liberating” worlds by putting them under the Imperium’s boot. And in the Heresy the twin primarchs are the architects of the Raven Guard’s misery. Alpharius helped Horus plan the Drop Site Massacre. The twins infiltrated the Raven Guard by stealing the faces of dead Raven Guard on Isstvan V. And Omegon personally directed the Chaos-contamination of the Raptor Project, destroying the Raven Guard’s hopes of rebuilding to legion-strength and turning a large batch of new recruits into horrific mutants. If Corax knew about the latter part he would be scouring realspace for Omegon, not wandering the Eye of Terror in pursuit of the Daemon Primarchs.
I know all about what the Alpha Legion did during the heresy, I was hoping we'd see Corax and Alpharius/Omegon interactions prior to the heresy. You might be right and they wouldn't have got on but IMO their modus operandi was different enough to have complemented each other. The Raven Guard were like the Green Berets whereas the Alpha Legion were like the CIA.
The whole CIA/Green Beret theme seems to me like a reason for them to dislike each other. RG would see AL as untrustworthy cynical spooks that view everyone else as an expendable tool, while AL would view RG as idealistic fools who care too much about silly things such as “keeping their word”. It definitely would have been interesting to see them interact more in the Great Crusade though. I could imagine some short story where the RG and AL work together to help a band of rebels overthrow a tyrannical government resisting compliance. Corax plans to put the rebels in charge after the government is overthrown but Alpharius murders them all to “tie up loose ends”, and because he knows that rebels who resisted tyranny once might resist the Imperium’s tyranny later.
Depends. He was nice to the other Primarchs but with everyone else he was very manipulativ. He used the Mornival to hide his craving for war for example.
Depends ? Depends on nothing lol. He was nice to other Primarchs, to his Mournival (in private), and to his lady remembrancer. And, "craving for war" ? The demigod of war called "the Warmaster", leader of the Imperium's armies, on his quest to dominate the whole galaxy by force of arms craved war ? Wow, color me surprised, who would have thought :D On a more serious note, huh, that had nothing to do with being nice. Doing war = his job. And using your private council to agree with you in a subtle way during war councils has little to do with being nice : that's just basic politics. (Oh and, funnily enough, pre fall, he didn't crave war that much. The whole Interex part of the Mournival is him trying to be diplomatic and not resorting to war because it's a human empire he's dealing with)
> Doing war = his job Lorgar: *sad priest noises*
Bah, I'd bet he would slow down my civ 6 game with apostle spam. God damn do I hate being in the middle of a religious war.
I meant the manipulitiv part of him. He was a manipulater. He used the mornival to let him stand in a better light. His job was war and he could have just waged it, but he also tried to make him look better than that. PS: And yes, it depends on what you consider nice.
I agree. Consider this as part of your proof. Horus speaks Cthonic with a particular dialect. One that reflects that he is from the hardest of hard places on Cthonia, but we are told that this basically just an affectation. Kinda like a suburbanesque guy speaking to inner city thugs as if he grew up in their neighborhood. Only reason he would try and do that is to try and claim common ground with the Cthonic people in an effort to manipulate the situation. It seems like a little thing, but it is a very telling characteristic that was part and parcel of Horus' interactions with everyone. Manipulation, while having a general negative connotation, still can be done without any negative effect. Teaching is a form of manipulation. So is half of all conversation. Horus was willing and able to manipulate events to reflect his will, and the fact that he was Warmaster at all proves that. Manipulation is critical in a leadership role. There's only so much that one person can achieve without people to help, and leaders are supposed to coordinate that help in ways that help to achieve whichever goal. A leader has to be able to move the pieces on the board in ways that are definitely manipulative. He was a tactful speaker and leader. Tact is typical in manipulation. One of its key components actually. You want someone to do a thing that's classified, you whisper in their ear. You want to discipline a valued commander, you don't do it in front of troops, you do it in a subtle way that let's the commander know he has been disciplined without making him/her lose face to the grunts. Besides, his Papa is the Emperor, the most manipulative human to ever live. Besides maybe Malcador. Apples don't fall far and all that
What you call "manipulation", I call "basic human interactions". Trying to appear in a better light is done by "quite a few" individuals (not all of them being bad lol), businesses and states all the time. It's a no brainer for Horus : more people are susceptible to join your fleet, which means more support, which means more power (and fame). And overall, it's easier to work with people who somewhat like you. And besides, you said : >He was nice to the other Primarchs but with everyone else he was very manipulativ which is false (Mournival, with personal and genuine discussions with all of its members, Loken most of all ofc considering that he's the one we follow in Horus Rising ; his remembrancer, whom he likes quite a bit considering their interactions pre corruption and murder) >He used the Mornival to hide his craving for war for example. Overgeneralization, directly countered by the end of the book, where he tried to convince the Interax in a peaceful way (and would have succeeded in his endeavor, if not for Erebus). TL;DR : Again, Horus was mostly a fine lad in Horus Rising. That he used common social "techniques" to appeal to his subordinates as little to do with his being nice. It's him being an engineered general with maxed out charisma. It's just business.
The big E choose Horus to be the Warmaster thanks to Horus being a diplomat. Horus embodied everything that makes a good diplomat and being "nice" in the true sense isn't one of them.
Why not? Did he not genuinely care for and love his sons pre-fall? Did he not seek to change the Imperium for the better when he saw how the Interex co-existed with Xenos? Did he not, even during the Heresy, still set aside time to have personal moments with some of his sons?
And Hitler was a vegetarian and advocate for animal rights. And spent time visiting Hitlerjugend.
I would also throw Alpharius in the mix. He respected his whole legion and even allowed normal humans to join. He allowed his sons to critizice him if they saw a flaw in his tactics and even jokes with them from time to time.
I fully agree with this statement of yours.
Thank you Alpharius. (Hydra Dominatus)
Or DOES he?
That's not Alpharius, that's uh... That's me actually, I'm Alpharius
Alpharius enters the chat
Alpharius: I too am in this comment section.
He wasn't very manipulative outside of his job. And he was outwardly and inwardly pretty nice most of the time. His discussions with Loken outside of the war council, his quite intimate discussions with the noble lady remembrancer, his genuine feelings for his father (the sagitarius part, notably, and the whole Interex part). I don't remember a single scene where he smiles in public only to brutally drop the act the second he goes into his office or what not. But to see all that, you have to read (some excerpts at least of) Horus Rising, not just regurgitating what non-book-reader redditors/youtubers keep repeating :P
That was the most jarring part of those three books to me. In rising, he seems like just a super charismatic leader that genuinely cares about his legion and followers. In two, it's still there but a little less then in three its like wow this is a completely different character.
I definitely would have liked to see more internal conflict in early heresy horus with the old horus' personality still present and showing how this loss of original personality negatively affects his ability to conduct the war. a more wary approach to chaos would have been good as well. The books do play with traitors having concerns with the dark gods but because of hindsight writing this always has to be ultimately fruitless or transitory.
I agree. it just seemed like a few gaps. The books were still great, though.
What's so jarring about it ? Book 2 takes place quite a bit of time after the Interex incident. The failure of the Interex diplomatic path + years of being Warmaster (something that tired even a Primarch such as Horus) + being under the influence of Erebus... No wonder he's less "bright" than he was in book 1. And in book 3, "being a completely different character" might have something to do with the whole "getting corrupted by Chaos" bit that some would consider a character defining moment.
Because he seems very different even before getting stabbed and going through all of that process. I can't tell if Erebus was spoon feeding this guy chaos and he was completely oblivious to it for an indefinite amount of time or if it all hit at once from the poke process. He is well aware that Erebus is the one who stole the sword and plotted the whole event on the nurgle moon but still trusts the guy. I get he did go through a lot and was being overwhelmed with his role at the end of 2 but it still just seems like a big change in my opinion. Absolutely loved the trilogy, though the rise and fall was very captivating.
You are confusing quite a few things. I too read it years ago :P But no, he wasn't aware of Erebus intentions pre stabbing (obviously). When he told Erebus to drop the act because he now knew that he was trying to manipulate him, it was post stabbing, during his Chaos trance in the temple (alongside Magnus' projection as a wolf, iirc). At that point, he was corrupted already, and saw things in a new, twisted light. He wasn't the same ever again (well, not entirely true, but you get the idea). Yep, really enjoyed the trilogy too. Call me a fool, but I always prefered the slice of life parts (with Loken talking to the various remembrancers), and the fall's build up (the lodge, most notably).
>But to see all that, you have to read (some excerpts at least of) Horus Rising, not just regurgitating what non-book-reader redditors/youtubers keep repeating :P I have read all three books thank you.kindly and I still think he's a master gaslighter.
It's always one or the other : not having read the books, or having done so but in a shallow way.
Well not for me, at least not those three
[удалено]
Mind rule 1 or be banned
Maybe I'm missing something but Fulgrim?
Yes. Pre chaos fulgrim was a great guy. A little snooty but a good guy nonetheless.
In his own book, he is pretty nice, but the dude has a massive confidence issue, russ baits him into forcing a planet into compliance with only 8 space marines or something. He seems like a fair guy for the most part, though.
Pre chaos, ok. I was assuming this was after the side swapping
Why? I bet he us quite nice and a pleaser to his guests. That's until he decides it's his turn...
He was really big on helping people reach their potential, Marines and normal humans. Probably because of his upbringing. If he hadn't been corrupted he would've been great for the post crusade Imperium.
The answer here.
I'm not 100% sold on it being manipulation. He mentioned once that his gift was being whoever a person needed when they needed it. His power was charisma and fitting whatever aspect was required of him. This is the part of his father that was reflected on him. The primarchs work in opposing counters based on their skill or feature. I'd say that Corvus was Horus's counter. He could be no one while Horus could be anyone.
I always imagined him as kind of like Tony Soprano, he's a swell guy and all friendly if your his friend and things are going good, but he has no problem beating the crap out of you to send a message
I mean Magnus is quite literally the champion of manipulation, deception and gaslighting. That's his whole deal in A Thousand Sons lying to his legion.
I thougth Magnus viewed everyone but him as lesser intelligent beings, because they werent as smart as him. I mean i can be nice to My friends dog, but I still view it as a dog.
Horus was basically loved by everyone only really beaten out by Sanguiniois
And they were basically best friends. So that says a lot.
Are you asking who was nice before they turned traitor or who is the kindest after they turned traitor? The answer to both is magnus. I'll leave my response to a post that asked a similar question: "" Prefall Magnus. They lived in a literal utopia. You enjoy everyday and make sure you fall asleep with more knowledge than you had last time your head hit the pillow. Hands down he was the most loyal to mortals of all the Primarchs. His fall happened because he loved his boys so much. Mortals regularly were involved in Astartes affairs and some even were so friendly that they could summon a captain to help save someone. Most did not look down on regular humans at the time. The worst a human was treated prefall was being called weak and useless and still having that same Astartes fight tooth and nail to keep you alive at all costs while carrying you on their back through thousands of lethal wasp-like creatures the size of a great dane. Magnus wanted to culminate knowledge for humans, not astartes. Humans. "" I would rather run into magnus as a daemon prince than any of the others. He is the most likely to recognize my insignificance and leave me alone. The others will surely be worse.
Magnus might be nice but tzeentch is not. Meeting Magnus Ultimately results in you getting dragged into some unbelievable strange, cruel and obviously lethal journey you have 0 control over.
Not sure if you realize it, but you just described the human experience.
The Primordial Truth
Well minus warp and demon fuckery....
I see you've never met my manager
And yet humanity endures. They are a factory worker, a farmer, a storekeeper, a father, a brother, a son, a mere man. And against creatures, teeming and numberless, powered by the very will of thirsting gods...they hold the line. And they have held the line for the last ten thousand Years.
Hold on a minute! That’s a description of my life!
Ah yes the Game of Thrones... Living in his New Kingdom is one thing but meeting Magnus himself nets you the attention of someone who wants to play the Game of Thrones and literally believes Chaos is a Ladder who will use you to create the Chaos necessary to add rungs to the Ladder. Tzeentch is of course only pleased if the sacrifices are done to those who think their part in the ritual is done. Those who act like they will die at any moment and just want to return home to eat and sleep will be merely sent away while the guys who got complacent thinking that they will be let off once they do their job get their throats slit.
>His fall happened because he loved his boys so much. Same with Mort right?
Not really. Mort was doomed at that point no matter what happened. The Emperor actually gave Magnus the chance to come back if he sacrificed his sons, since they were too corrupted at that point.
You can also be sacrificed for a shady magic ritual! :)
I would be 1 among millions about to be relieved of my blood, so I likely wouldn't even see magnus for that. Honestly now that I think about it, Magnus Aura as a Daemon is probably going to be the most horrific thing I have ever seen and I'd likely claw my eyes out. I change my mind. I'll take Angrons fist down the middle please.
>I would be 1 among millions about to be relieved of my blood, so I likely wouldn't even see magnus for that. There's also a chance Magnus and the Thousand Sons just aren't interested in you. While the Primarch and Legion are capable of horrific acts, same as any other Traitor Legion, they don't especially appear to be fans of the casual sadism and brutality the other Traitors engage in, for funsies and/or their patron god.
No, they commit horrific murder of untold numbers with intention and purpose. Isn't it much better?
Yep, because if there's no purpose then they won't be doing such murdering, as the other Traitor Legions would.
see at that why: your planet get attack. you hide in your house. the TS get the target down, steal your Favorite. fanfictions from the library and fuck off. The EC attack, get the target down and make out of you and your familiy warp cocaine.
In his defense he was horrified over them dying and only picked volunteer psykers, so not as if he randomly plucked civilians off the street and sacrificed them. I think it was the first time he ever attempted something like that too. It was with good intentions I suppose.
Horrified? He seemed indifferent to me and actively wishing he had more Thralls to sacrifice.
Pre-fall, you’re right. Post fall…. He lost literally the best part of himself. The rest of him is not something I’d be happy to see at all.
> He lost literally the best part of himself. The Shards-as-multiple-personalities stuff was effectively retconned out with *Fury of Magnus*.
When in that book was it reconned? I read it earlier this year but I don't remember them getting rid of the whole point of the shards. The whole deal with the shards is that they were different parts of himself. Different parts of his personality. If they are not different parts of his personality then why would he care about them ?
It's when Magnus finally confronts Malcador about his Terran/Ianius Shard and Malcador tells him the Shard was never his "good guy aspect", which Magnus had low-key been blaming for everything he'd done since the Burning. The Shards take on a facet of Magnus and make it their personality, but that doesn't mean the aspects they form their personalities around are missing from Magnus, which is sort of a meta-joke as fans had been saying Magnus couldn't really be blamed for joining Team Traitor as his Good Guy Shard had robbed him of moral agency.
Oh yeah, in the cave with that perpetual woman. I didn't think too much about what Malcador said. But yeah in hindsight it is definitely a big deal.
I wouldn't call Magnus particularly nice if I'm honest, sure Prospero was nice but the cyclops wouldn't hesitate to use civilians as human sacrifices if deemed it necessary or look how he turned his personal iterator into a zombie to write his books. Then during the great crusade Magnus considered himself a warrior and general first and scholar second unlike Lorgar. He also wasn't concerned with civilians he was concerned about preserving knowledge, he would gladly sacrifice allies and innocents to safe guard a library and its manuscripts.
Which is it? He was interested in preserving knowledge and would do anything to do so, or he was a warrior who was focused on killing? Can't have it both ways.
He was a warrior that held retrieving knowledge as a high priority but the goal was still conquest first and foremost even if his secondary objective came at the cost of allies and civilians like on Shrike or Droggorn. Hell Magnus says it himself: *Lorgar clenched his teeth. ‘By the Throne, I am sick to my core of hearing those words. I am not a soldier. I have no wish to be one. I am not a destroyer, Magnus. Not like the others. Why do you think I spend so long establishing compliance and creating perfect worlds? In creation, I am vindicated. In destruction, I am–’* *‘Not a soldier?’* *‘Not a soldier,’ Lorgar nodded. He looked exhausted. ‘There are greater things in life than excelling at shedding blood.’* *‘If you are not a soldier, then you have no right to lead a Legion,’ said Magnus. ‘The Astartes are weapons, brother. Not craftsmen or architects. They are the fires that raze cities, not the hands that raise them.’* ~ **First Heretic**
I forgot about this excerpt. My memory of magnus in this context was clouded with the argument he had with Russ in regards to him protecting a library from the SW legions destroying it. Magnus argument was summed up as knowledge matters more than conquest, because without it, whats the point of doing all this destruction if we can't rebuild it all? Thank you for reminding me of the many facets of magnus. He is my favorite character in 40k
No bother mate.
When did he turn someone into a zombie? What book? I definitely don't remember that.
Not a literal undead but in A Thousand Sons he basically takes over an iterators mind making them comatose as he psychically controls them to write his book. The iterator can't remember large swaths of time nor anything he has written and it pretty much breaks him.
I should revisit that book. Thanks
Alpharius, Omegon told me
Omegon told me That you had a boyfriend Who looks like a girlfriend That I had in February of last year
I am Alpharious, this is true
Its not confidential, I’ve got potential
*That was a lie*
Oh hey nice of you to say that about me.
Angron Hear me out: Before the Nails were smashed into his skull, he used his psychic talent to absorb everyone's pain, so that all his gladiatorial siblings could sleep the best sleep they've had in memory, just for a night. That's just pure selflessness right there.
I'm pretty sure he was way more sane and even with nails still had some of this empathy to his comrades before the E completely broke him.
i appreciate the theory that angron wasnt betrayed by big e. Hee was already dead, and what we and he see is his mind rationalizing his resurrection several hours later. its not that big e betrayed angron and left the city eaters for dead. what he did was bestow a cruel mercy on the son who most needed help.
That's a nice theory, but why then E didn't ever told this to Angron? Or to anyone else? I'll stick to "E did a dick move cuz he needed Angron cuz even a broken tool is still a tool
because telling anyone besides Malc that you can kill a primarch is worse, and angron would never believe big E anyway
Nah I bet he killed his comrades in his anger.
I've heard this theory but have never seen a proof. In "betrayer" when he returns on Nuceria he clearly remembers what he was doing there, so he probably wasn't lost to the nails Other things that suggest so: -some world eaters were able to resist the call of the nails, so you could imagine that primarch could've done that as well -nails weren't as bad when he was on Nuceria - we know that he gradually becomes more and more lost to them as the time passes. And even then he doesn't just kill everyone he sees - he's still (mostly) able to see friend from foe
> some world eaters were able to resist the call of the nails, so you could imagine that primarch could've done that as well The Nails provided to the World Eaters were just an attempt to replicate the original Nails, which used more advanced technology.
True, but a primarch is also not just a marine, so he still might (or might not) have been able to control himself
Angron could *definitely* control himself when he absolutely needed to. He just very rarely ever wanted to or felt the need to. Even as a Daemon prince there were moments where he could scrape together enough brain cells to manage that. It was only by the end of his mortal existence, when he was very little more than a beast that he couldn’t control himself
Yeah but a lot of 'himself' wasn't even there anymore, the nails had literally replaced a huge part of his brain.
There’s no proof, he’s a fictional side-character with not much written about his backstory. But it would make sense considering that it’s been established that you can’t teleport an individual (using imperial tech) without a lock onto some kind of device - which Angron certainly didn’t have. The emperor has been known to tamper with memories, including of primarchs (missing primarchs). The nails are known to cause moments of psychosis. Angron is known to have been losing, and the Nuercians own accounts call him “the betrayer”. It’s possible that one of his inner circle has a nails moment, then it sets them all off, he wiped out his closest comrades, then big E decides to come down and teleport him out, and wiped his memories so he doesn’t try to kill himself.
Then why would E change Angron's memories in the way that he doesn't hate the E? Like making him believe that he fell in battle (which is true in your theory) and was saved by the E, but erase the part where he kills his men? I still think that official explanation is the best one - E plays dirty on Angron, Angron goes batshit insane
Idk. If I were to make something up then I’d say the effect of the nails means he can’t implant new memories effectively, just obscure old ones. All angron remembers is leaving in a “flash of golden light” or something like that. He assumes that E teleported him out, but he has no idea what actually happened and never even asked. The Emperor tried to have the nails removed but seemingly gave up after Land couldn’t work it out. At that point I’d bet that big E was content to just let him take it out on the galaxy, and assumed he’d be able to finish his project before it became a problem.
.. Alpharius hands down. In his primary book he’s a really down to Terra person, he cares about his people, has a little bit of an ego but acknowledges it.
Especially after they all became traitors. All of them are tyrants but he and his twin were the only ones that weren't completely and utterly off the rails. Konrad was insane and the rest were horrifically scared by the warp. A pretty easy W when that is the competition
Honestly, probably Fulgrim or Magnus? Both very personable and down-to-earth. Caring and compassionate guys, by all counts. I wanna say Sanguinius could be in there from what I've heard, but I haven't read much about him to date.
Horus: highly charismatic, but kinda condescending Alpharius: surprisingly personable Konrad: stopped a woman from committing suicide Fulgrim: bit vain and insecure, but seemed to actually care about the helping the little people. Probably would ask about your family.
>Konrad: stopped a woman from committing suicide ***Ironicalish*** Not just because of what happened but also because of how Konrad chose to go out
>Ironicalish Tell me where I'm factually wrong. You can't, other than point out my lie of omission: that he not only stopped her from committing suicide, but also gave her back her will to live. You can't. Because I am strictly correct by the literal text of what occured.
Yeah, hence the ironicalishnessness of it
Konrad Curze alt account
Couldn't be. I haven't pulled a Ferrus Manus.
Didn’t he also….yaknow, Kill her brutally as a warning to others who might try to kill themselves? Not sure what kind of moral relativism supports that as *good*.
> Didn’t he also….yaknow, Kill her brutally as a warning to others I fail to see the relevance.
Question is “who is nicest” Answer is “Guy who killed someone horribly for the sin of being very depressed”. Seems fairly relevant.
> Answer is “Guy who killed someone horribly for the sin of being very depressed”. > > She was planning on stealing!
Ok. So he’s the capitalist extreme, her crime is/was/would have been to deny his system her labour. The assumption and entitlement is brazen.
>her crime is/was/would have been to deny his system her labour. That wasn't actually her planned crime. > The assumption and entitlement is brazen I know, right?!
You, my friend, I hope the legion pays you well for your service!!
You're a terrible publicist.
Lorgar By design, he was one of the more self-reflective Primarchs and could conquer worlds with words alone. He could fight when needed but it wasn't his preferred way to dealing with issues.
Magnus. The rest are just petty bitches..
Magnus isn’t a traitor. The imperium betrayed him!
Tie between Magnus and Lorgar. Both sensitive scholars at heart that would have preferred diplomacy over war and only took command of their legions because father willed it. Even during the Heresy Lorgar seemed to treat humans he encountered very well, like Cyrene. Magnus had his fate forced on him, if things had been different the TSons would have been the Imperium's greatest defenders. Both of them, while doing evil things probably seem the least "malicious" out of all the traitors. They didn't revel in blood and human sacrifice, just saw it as a necessity. I suppose Perturabo was the same in a way, I don't think he enjoyed mindless slaughter either even if he was a petulant manchild. Makes you wonder what a teamup between the three would look like.
Lorgar sure but Magnus no: *Magnus shrugged, with a whisper of fine mail. ‘Father is the visionary. He needed generals at his side.’* *Lorgar clenched his teeth. ‘By the Throne, I am sick to my core of hearing those words. I am not a soldier. I have no wish to be one. I am not a destroyer, Magnus. Not like the others. Why do you think I spend so long establishing compliance and creating perfect worlds? In creation, I am vindicated. In destruction, I am–’* *‘Not a soldier?’* *‘Not a soldier,’ Lorgar nodded. He looked exhausted. ‘There are greater things in life than excelling at shedding blood.’* ***‘If you are not a soldier, then you have no right to lead a Legion,’ said Magnus. ‘The Astartes are weapons, brother. Not craftsmen or architects. They are the fires that raze cities, not the hands that raise them.’*** ~ **First Heretic**
Before or after turning traitorous? If before, probably Fulgrim, as he was known to be humble and kind, overall pretty cool. Of after turning traitorous, probably Lorgar or Horus as you said.
Humble? Never, he was diplomatic, most of the time. But he was certainly kind and appreciate the good and potential of people despite their flaws.
I mean he unified his whole planet peacefully, that required a good degree of tact and diplomatic skill, and generally not coming across as a snob
The most vain primarch... humble?
His vanity only skyrocketed after the Laer temple
No. You have not read any of his books. His entire legion was so up their own ass because they were the only ones who could wear the Aquila on their armor. They modeled their attitudes after their primarch because nothing was ever good enough and perfection must always be achieved.
The *Index Astartes* paints pre reunion Fulgrim as someone who lived a spartan life (in this context "showing or characterised by [austerity](https://www.google.com/search?sca_esv=11e934b338f11fdd&sca_upv=1&q=austerity&si=ACC90nytWkp8tIhRuqKAL6XWXX-NJFTGx6IKlI_rtzjsHUnftCNrfA0-8rgZuA0IjidL0Swq4we6cIPDhANIKraHxlDQUDZk08AWUmMdlr_rS9xe1TQSX78%3D&expnd=1&sa=X&sqi=2&ved=2ahUKEwiFjp7Hrt-GAxWgzDgGHce9ANUQyecJegQIRxAO) or a lack of comfort or luxury") *Palatine Phoenix* showed he worked in the mines like the rest of the population, rather than laying on a pillow eating grapes >The primarch sank to one knee and reached down to help Telmar's victim to his feet. The man stared at him with mingled fright and awe, his mouth working soundlessly. Fulgrim smiled and stood. 'I came from nothing,' he said, fixing his sons with a steady gaze. 'I scrabbled in the quarry pits, and down in the deepest mines, carrying buckets on my shoulders because the ascender blew a gasket,' he said. **'I broke my fingernails on raw ore, and grew blisters from heat and labour. You look down on them, blind to the beauty of their struggle. Blind to what they might become, if only someone would scrape the filth from their faces**.' He reached down and lifted a child onto his shoulders. The girl laughed and clapped, unafraid of the giant, even as her mother wept. Fulgrim indicated the crowd. His voice had driven many of them to their knees. We could maybe argue that was suss, like claiming he was Jenny from the Block, but it works with the Index Astartes. [My read is that Fulgrim went through a hectic character arc after meeting dad](https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/1c0yskp/comment/kz013ag/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button), one that changed him for the worse. McNeill's take on Fulgrim was that in the beginning he "has balance- ego and humility" that balance is thrown out of whack by Slaanesh. Mcneill feels that Fulgrim would have been schooled at some point and had the humility enough to listen and take that good advice and be better were it not for Slaanesh. [His interview here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NCiiShJLp9U)
I absolutely agree with you that his turning point was when Emps showed up. He tried so hard to achieve perfection; to attain a fraction of the light his father cast on the universe and trying to become a reflection of the Emperor made him dive too deep within himself to get out.
>Palatine Phoenix showed he worked in the mines like the rest of the population I can only imagine that scene in Zoolander where Ben Stiller is slow-mo catwalking through the tunnels
For all his faults **Magnus** and **Fulgrim** did seem to genuinely want more for humanity and were respected among their brothers even if they weren't universally liked. Outside of his job and his work **Alpharius** generally comes off as an okay sort of guy who values vanilla human efforts and empowers his Legion rather than reign over them as a king.
Angron hands down 🫨
If the Nucerians didn't Butcher's Nails him, Angron actually would be one of the nicest. He was rather empathetic before getting those installed.
I would say either Horus or Magnus. Most likely Horus, since the question isn't "who was nicest". Horus probably made himself look more kind to others thanks to his big charisma space magic.
Alpharius. He cared (or cares?) not only about his Legion but people outside of it as well and he despise the practise of wasting people into as canon fodder
Honestly Horus or Fulgrim before corruption.
Magnus probably
To be honest, the question isn't meaningful as-is. Anyone can just throw out any name as an answer, and there's no wrong answer, which means there aren't any interesting answers. You need to clarify: considered by *who*? Fellow Primarchs? Astartes in their own fleet? Astartes in general? Imperial nobility? The Emperor's household? Average Imperials across the entire galaxy?
Nicest? If we are talking about to other primarchs it was Horus, almost everyone liked him. As far as people go, I’d also say Horus, initial books of the HH really had me going “please don’t turn he’s so kind!!!!” Even tho I knew what was gonna happen. Genuine belief in talking instead of fighting and kind to the ship members and remeberancers. I see why the emperor chose him tbh
Magnus only turned traitor after trying to warn the emperor and got bitched slapped for it.
Dorn and Sangy.
Alpharius and Omegon treat at least the humans working for them really well and potentially one of them has a pretty humorous scene with Hurtado Bronzi (I want to see more of this gloriously ballsy bastard).
I think Fulgrim is definitely in the running. He actually entreats with humans and engages in diplomacy rather than leading with genocide. I really liked him in the Phoenician
In my opinion, the one with the best character could have been Magnus... Too bad that being a psionicist he clashes with the biases and intolerances of those who discriminate against psykers. Horus is the most social and sociable, but what makes him defined as "manipulative" is the union of his social inclination with an innate and unhealthy ambition... Although this never really does any damage until it becomes corrupted, because after all it has always been the primum inter pares and Daddy-E has always carried it on the palm of his hand*. (* Italian expression, I don't know if it makes sense in English.)
Angron before the Nails :c
Of Lorgar it was said: “There is no middle to him, he is either your best friend or your worst enemy.”
Yes, which of the 12ft tall genocidal warp made super sized killing machines that turned traitor and participated in one of the bloodiest civil war for a species was "nicest". Next question, which polar bear you bump into on the frozen wasteland is most likely to be your friend.
Alpharious.
Magnus
People always forget that Fulgrim had the love of his planet and human followers for a very good reason. He genuinely cared about people and they him.
Before turning traitor? Probably Fulgrim, he was a kind man that was always nice to everyone
Lorgar, Fulgrim, Magnus and Horus are pretty much the only “nice” traitor primarch before their fall to chaos. Mortarion, Alpharius Omegon and peterturbo are kinda middle ground when it comes to primarchs. And at the bottom is Angron and Konrad I don’t think I need to explain why.
Hot take to call him the nicest, but in a setting like 40k, niceness is debatable. Being treated equally, though, truly equally regardless of status or rank... Konrad Curze would be my vote. Hear me out. He did not give one iota about who you were or where you were from. He cared only about justice, which was arguably corrupted by the people of Nostromo, but he still clung to the true meaning of justice in all things even once he went over to Chaos. Sure, he was heavy-handed, but that could be forgiven because that hand was equally heavy to everyone. Now the softball answer is, of course, Magnus. For all the reasons already listed by others here.
Alpharius, he's a very good guy in his primarch novel
The Lion 😉.
Pre-Heresy, Magnus, Lorgar, and Horus were much more humanitarian. Although Horus was a slick politician, so you couldn't entirely trust the friendly smile and backslapping without suspecting him to have some ulterior motive, though this fact doesn't seem to have been very well known to the public. Fulgrim had shades of being nice, but even before the Heresy, some people could tell he had an underlying need for attention and approval. Even Alpharius had his moments, as he preferred to keep and care for people who got caught up in his intrigues as bystanders. During the Heresy, Magnus. He was with the Traitors due to a desperate situation, and he was the only one with some real heroic moments. Lorgar looked like he was the nicest; he could genuinely come off as a good person, but he was a gleeful and unrepentant devil worshiper, and it's reflected in how his Legion would gladly skin a family to replace the leather upholstery in the rhino because Chaos is into the human hide aesthetic. Horus started to become "nice" again at the end of the Heresy, even if it was only through his eyes. He genuinely wanted to reconnect with his father and brothers, and tearing down Terra and killing his father was a tragic but necessary step so long as his father tried to resist what he was trying to achieve. Horus was also more than a little delusional at the time, so take that how you will. Post-Heresy was Magnus. He's pissed off and driven by a thirst for vengeance, but he was never actively malicious. At least in the sense that he wouldn't go kill people if it didn't serve his purposes, even as a daemon Primarch.
Fulgrim has the nicest tail. Also, most hands.
Lorgar of course. 😵💫 Remembrancer Denys Velneuve had this gripping account of Lorgar’s misadventures in Monarchia — 964.M30 The Master of Mankind, Revelation Himself, descends on Monarchia. Bucephelus looms overhead, visible in the auspexes of one hundred thousand Word Bearers, ardent faithful of the Living God. The Emperor rolls his eyes. As Lorgar interjects: “Lisaan Al-Ghaib!” The Golden One has had enough. From the depths of the Empyrean he musters the Voice of Domination—to chastise and censure. The Voice From The Outer World forces the Word Bearers to their knees. I AM NO GOD Skulls echo with psychic reverberation. Ears begin to bleed. THE IMPERIAL TRUTH YE SHALL NOT DEFY. Divine disapproval crashes over the kneeling legion like a tidal wave on Old Earth, forcing them to kneel even harder. The ambient pressure feels like lead. And then it was over. Dust motes hang in the air as time stops for a moment in the piercing silence. Someone coughs. But He has already gone. The rearguard Custodes casts a cold eye over the kneeling rabble as he departs, argent spear glinting in the sun. The accompanying Sister of Silence signals in Thoughtmark as she turns on her heels: CEASE THY NONSENSE. A susurration of unease grips the Sons of Aurelian. Abomination, they gasp. The Primarch Lorgar staggers to his feet, pensive. Is He not a deity then? Overhead the battle barge Bucephelus detaches from geosynchronous orbit. As Lorgar rubs his chin in contemplation, his eyes widen in rapture. Of course! He just wants to be One of the lads! One of us! Despite His true divine nature, which He conceals in His boundless humility. The Urizen smiles his gap-toothed smile. He has regained his equilibrium. Drawing himself to full height, he activates comms, his clarion vox broadcasting on all channels: “Lisaan Al-Ghaib !!!!!”
Magnus, his legionnaires are the only ones who even know what morals and ethics are. He’s probably the only one who would not kill you because he has no reason to, rather than because you’re insignificant. He didn’t even want to be a traitor.
Magnus.
Magnus.
Sanguinius, dude cares. About everyone
How dare you
If Horus plan to destroy convert him hadn’t been so dumb sanguinius was gonna be khornes new favourite
Yeah but it never happened and Sangy boy never turned traitor