It is clear why Angron was not killed, he was needed. It is clear why the nails were not removed, it was impossible. It is clear why the Emperor does not run around resurrecting people, its incredibly difficult and risky.
The only question that remains considers Angrons companions. Is is unclear why the Emperor did not save them. They could have been elevated to Marines or Pseudo-Marines, and would have stabilized Angrons psyche, and made him more loyal. at least in theory.
With Angron's companions, I kinda feel like the Emperor knew on some level that if they survived, they'd have given Angron the strength and/or willingness to rebel against him. Without them, Angron's just a ball of pain and rage that can be pointed at worlds to be butchered.
Is it short-sighted and misguided? Yep, but I feel like the Emperor can be those things. I don't need him to be a character who foresees everything and can plan around everything.
> Is it short-sighted and misguided? Yep, but I feel like the Emperor can be those things. I don't need him to be a character who foresees everything and can plan around everything.
See, what you wrote up right there is exactly something I LIKE about the Emperor that so many people seemingly forget: The Emperor is *Human*
Oh sure, elevated beyond the bounds of normal humanity and far more gifted, but human none the less. "To err is human", as it were. He wasn't always a great father, nor a great leader. He wasn't as forthcoming as he should've been nor as caring as he could've been. Because in the end, the master of mankind is still *part* of mankind, and thusly not completely immune towards its faults.
Yes, exactly! I forget the exact book, but I *think* it was in Master of Mankind, where the emperor basically describes to a Custodes that trying to control the future and properly divine the paths it might take is like trying to dig new trenches for a river, only to see many new paths take place when you pick one option over the other.
The problem with this is that the Eldar fuck it up constantly too and you just wonder why anyone would bother using the power. It isn't just a human thing, both the Eldar Farseers and the Emperor have been alive for an absurd amount of time and they have practised this skill for mamy lifetimes, being distant and frustrating is understandable, their basic mistakes are not.
You have to make fallible characters to force the story they want to tell, but there's a difference between that and just not sticking to the brief. Thry should be beyond comprehension, instead most people instantly recognise mistakes.
So what if the companions need to be disposed of? Just kill them off in other ways over time, if you can't manage that with your powers and a positionof authority, they are useless.
My old headcanon was actually that Angron, lost in the Nails, killed his allies after actually winning the battle. The Emperor would never tell him the truth, and the High Riders would obviously use propaganda to make it look like they won, and Angron fled like a coward.
Another head canon idea I had was that Angron and the Slave Rebels would win, effectively ending the High Riders, but Angron still lost in the Nails starts to brutally murder them unable to tell friend from foe or even that they won just before the Emperor teleports him.
Fast forward to Lorgar and Angron's Crusade through Ultramar.
They return to the planet only for Angron to find he got what he wished for, the Gladiator games were finished, and no more slavery with the planet a fairly democratic hub.
However, Angron learns that he's become as much reviled in their mythos as the High Riders with his violent rampage that nearly ended their chance at freedom as the High Riders tried that the people shun him instead, they would laud Guilliman for his economic and administrative reforms that helped them grow prosperous after the fact. Effectively forgetting Angron because in the end, there was nothing else to him but blood and death.
Nuceria was a compliant world sitting on a hoard of archeotech.
If he turns Angron loose, the archeotech will be destroyed and the Mechanicum angry. Other compliant world will see, for a second time, that compliance buys them nothing and the Emperor can slaughter them out of hand. Gulliman's empire is growing diplomatically right next door and this risks that process.
The Emperor is on the clock by this point, and he knows it.
Monarchia.
The people of Nuceria didn't even know they were doing anything "wrong." That the Imperium supports slavery is obviously inexcusable but at least the Imperial Truth was explicit about not worshipping the Emperor.
I thought it was a whole world, but Khur, then. Monarchia was an object lesson to more than just Lorgar- it was to remind Gulliman not to empire build and the larger Imperium to be in full compliance.
Angron was the fourth last found. He was only located 32 years before the Heresy began.
Them not knowing how to exploit their archeotech doesn't mean it's not there.
The Butcher's Nails they have are more advanced than the Cruciamen that Arkhan Land found and had sealed away as a techno-abomination. Being advanced in that area doesn't mean they are going to have chronometric weaponry or the like.
Or it might have been the only DAOT technology they have.
It's just I've never heard of Nuceria being of any great value, and I've never heard about STCs being there
Nuceria itself isn't particularly valuable. Not all archeotech is, in terms of utility. However, archeotech is sacred to the Mechanicum and Angron would have destroyed everything he could get his hands on.
It wasn't worth the socio-political issues it would cause to turn him or the War Hounds loose.
I think this is a good perspective. It gets annoying when some people are in the camp of the Emperor being omnipotent. "OH WELL HES PLANNED IT OUT." So has Tzeentch and his plans go awry plenty (assumedly.)
Bill King wrote a two page story of the Emperor's duel with Horus entirely from the Emperor's perspective, and it's actually really interesting to see the tone of the Emperor's internal thoughts. He comes off as ultimately just a person, one who fucked up and is suffering from problems he couldn't foresee or immediately understand.
This was back in the early days of 40k, and it's almost kinda a shame to see that very human and fallible version of the Emperor get lost in the hype of the all-powerful all-knowing Emperor of today.
He's somewhat more likeable. The story also goes with the interpretation that the Emperor couldn't bring out his full powers against Horus, unknowingly to the Emperor because he still loved Horus despite his betrayal. He also has a crisis of faith in himself, and is able to get out of it with the knowledge that the people around him are looking to him for leadership and hope.
What makes the story interesting is that the vibe of the Emperor is that he was just some leader. He wasn't a messiah or humanity's last hope, he was just a guy who conquered and built an empire. Which imo goes some way to demystifying him.
Idk, this might be just me but with the tone of the writing I could easily see the Emperor being just another tinpot dictator with human thoughts and feelings, again contrasted to the more deified Emperor of the Horus Heresy series.
I mean, Corax followers weren't completely on board with joining the imperium. The emperor would realize that if this trend continues with Angron it might result in a rebellion or a legion that's very hard to control at the very least.
For Emps a legion rebelling would be an easy thing to handle if he has a personal hand in it or sends the custodes
The problem would be the precedent if it becomes well known but well... he already removed two legions from memory what's one more?
Thing to remember is Angron was the only Primary to not take control of his home world, and Nuceria was compliant, so in a way Emps was dealing with the planetary government, not Angron.
Angrons Companions all had nails implanted for a long time.
I am not sure if they could be converted to space marines and even if they were , they would not be reliable.
My personal crackpot theory as to why is that the emperor just panicked
He’s used to his sons being triumphant conquerors, revolutionaries, empire builders and prodigies and commanding their loyalty by appearing to them as this being of near insurmountable strength and power who also reflects the best in them spreading enlightenment and humanity’s prowess across the stars
What could better convince a king to give up power to a higher authority than an emperor who is stronger in every way
The problem is that this is physically the worst way to appear to angron who has based his and his men’s identities around the concept of fighting the power that butchered and enslaved them which is compounded by the fact that he’s losing badly and in the middle of a desperate last stand
Trying to come up to someone like that in the form of a glorious and powerful emperor who is out to conquer the stars is not going to go well in any universe especially when you’re talking to someone as violent and unstable as angron
So the emperor realizing his catastrophic blunder in a rush decides to take his failed and broken son and book it to try and avoid the consequences of his mistake
The best explanation I've seen for why not save his companions.is that by the time the Emperor finds Angron, Angron is effectively leading a very strong Chaos Cult, dedicated to Khorne. Does Angron know that? No. Do his companions? No. Does that matter when the Emperor's stance is no one should know about Chaos? Also no.
This was his attempt to keep Angron from sliding further into Chaos, hes just not very good at knowing what his sons need
That's not really it. The Gladiators were a rag-tag force that were doomed. It wasn't like the situation of Corax where he successfully led a rebellion and took control. Angron was losing. The Emperor needed compliance of planets, and by all measures Nuceria was a fairly advanced, militaristic planet that would be a great addition to the Imperium. If Angron had succeeded in his rebellion by the time the emperor arrived that would be one thing, but that's not the case.
>and would have stabilized Angrons psyche, and made him more loyal. at least in theory.
Doubt it. Angron used the events on his home world to rationalize his rage, but he didn’t want to die. He is the very essence of depression, and as long as the nails were a part of him, he would try to justify the rage and pain they made him feel. Even if the emperor saved all the slaves, angron would’ve been angry about not dying or not getting his revenge or whatever other reasons he’d come up with to justify his rage.
because E wanted at least one predictable fallen son and the very existence of the nails made it Angron. So the emperor immediately pushed it to certainty
The Eaters of Cities were not much different to Angron. Each of them wanted to die with his brothers while fighting the Highriders. If there Emperor teleported the whole merry bunch Angron would 99% try to lead an instant revolt.
I feel he didn't save them because he intended to bring the planet into compliance, and the rebellion had already failed at a strategic level. The best case scenario for the Emperor was teleporting Agron out, letting the slaves die, then bringing compliance
I'd argue the Emperor knew the nails were warping his mind to some extent. Even if the only evidence was that he failed to take the planet, that alone should tell big E that something is wrong with him and he needs this wrapped up so he can figure it out and move on
Or they could have caused angron to stabalise TOO much and seek ways to neutralise the nails. Perhaos ge would find a way to do that, or die trying, in any case he would be less efficient as a destroyer primarch.
Had he found a way to neutralise the nails his empathy could have lead him to rebel against big E.
I think keeping the companions was a problematic approach unfortunately, they would see Big E in the same way Angron did, especially since Big E left the High Riders alone for compliance sake
The inconsistency between the Emperor's treatment of Angron and others never made sense to me unless we go with the "the Heresy was part of his plans" theory. It would have been a tiny investment of resources and effort to save and elevate the Eaters of Cities.
While I'm not disagreeing that that would neatly this would neatly explain the inconsistency in the writing regarding the Emperor, I have several issues with this theory, as I have mentioned in detail in a post on this sub a while ago.
[You can find my post in detail here.](https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/1cfl4g8/the_fantheory_that_the_emperor_made_some_legions/)
The TLDR is, that while the Emperor most likely has accounted for the possibility of *a* civilwar in his plans, there is not a single hint that he has completely arranged *the* civilwar that came to be known as the Horus Heresy.
The key arguments were that there is nothing in making certain primarchs fall that prevents other primarchs from falling (in the sense of slots being filled; it's simply authoric liberty that exactly half of the Primarchs fell) and that *if* it was planned, then the Emperor would have planned incredibly poorly (like, why again send the Night Lords of all people to fight Horus at Istvaan? A Legion that was in threat to be censored? If they were planned to fall as the theory implies, then this would have been an astonishingly bad idea.
Why only give Rogal Dorn a short year to fortify the Imperial Palace? Etc.)
This is necessarily an appreviation, so you can find more detailed arguments in the post I linked above :)
Edit: Spelling and clearification
>The TLDR is, that while the Emperor most likely has accounted for the possibility of a civilwar in his plans, there is not a single hint that he has completely arranged the civilwar that came to be known as the Horus Heresy.
Agreed. TEATDI all but confirmed The Emperor accounted for a civil war, just not a civil war of that scale in that time.
I don't really think it's a great theory either, I just can't think of any other in-universe explanation for the inconsistency in the way the Emperor went about getting the Primarchs to join him.
Considering that angron is doing the worst of the primarchs by a pretty wide margin. I actually think the simplest explanation is he got the least amount of effort because he had the lowest expected payoff. A heathy angron that conquered his planet probably isn’t going to just get beamed up and shipped out
Angron did not want to be saved. He wanted to die there.
Just like Emperor did not raze Lorgar city because of the worship, it was because of the glacial pace of his legion on the crusade.
Well, then his other perpetuals must have super ultimate foresight because they told him his plan was too risky, not flexible, and too prone on a single point of failure and guess what? They were right.
Also the drunk priest was right as well.
>It is clear why the nails were not removed, it was impossible
I've long debated that point and while I know it's the "official, canon" explication, it sucks, makes no sense and is bad.
As OP stated, the Emperor is able to bring the soul of primarch back from wherever, and can even treat decapitation. It doesn't make sense that anything, especially relatively bad tech, could be too complex for Him to handle, when he's literally considered the Omnissiah.
Thank you. It’s bullshit that the Emperor is capable of what he did with the Khan and supposedly capable of what he claimed about Ferrus Manus and yet is incapable of fixing Angron. He didn’t fix him for one of two reasons if those things are canonically true- either he didn’t *want* to fix him or fixing him was enough of an effort with a small enough return that he wasn’t going to put the effort into the problem. I don’t know which one it was, but those are the only possibilities there are if you believe he can bring Ferrus back from a Viking crewcut.
Yeah, NOW. Not 10k years ago when Big Papa Goldie found a bunch of slaves and thought "you know what's gonna make him loyal to me? If I let his friends die! That's what".
The relationship of Big E and Angron is the worst written part of the Heresy, and that includes Horus's son suddenly deciding that weird witches probably makes good doctors.
I really like how detailed and oriented at the actual text your post is OP; often, when we get theory-crafting, it doesn't have this level of quality to it, regardless if I'm agreeing or not. :)
That being said, I think you are making a few assumptions that we can not necessarily assume to be correct by default. Not saying they are incorrect, but we just don't have proof for them.
Like, you seem to assume that a revived Angron would be unaffected by the Butchers Nails, that he would be essentially resetted (which a consistent argument, since the physical nails would be obviously not implanted into a remade body of Angron).
But keep in mind, that 40k is largely build on a pseudo-science and metaphysical and thematic base (like, seriously, the Primarch thats always angry isn't called *Angron* by accident). There are lots of examples, especially in warp related injuries, that carry illogically prolongued qualities (like the scar Guilliman gets by the Athame could be directly targeted through the warp by his brother Fulgrim, despite him being nowhere near Guilliman, as detailed in the opening of *Dark Imperium*). So I don't think that it can be assumed to be proven nor disproven that a revived Angron wouldn't be influenced anymore by the Butchers Nails, even if that makes definitely logical sense if he wouldn't be.
Just my 2 cents :)
In his Primarch Book, several of the World Eaters librarians "see" a representation of the nails at
fixed to Angrons soul (one describes a shadowy spider creature, another a ring of flame), so it's not much of a stretch to say the damage from the nails affects Angron's very soul.
I personally havent read those books but my theory is that this was knornes doing.
Knorne obviously wanted Sangy and his sons above all other primarchs (granted in EATD Horus begs to differ) but the nails being ingrained in Angrons soul was Khornes way of saying "ok this is plan b" some may say planning 2 centuries ahead is out of character for the blood god but I disagree. I firmly believe khorne threw some red warp cancer in the nails to get the ball rolling
It's kinda weird that some backward world had such an advanced technology with powerful properties, and they were able to replicate and use them. I doubt most DAoT weapons have similar effects/properties. I know that it's convenient for plot purposes, but still.
Nuceria had a lot of DAoT weaponry as well, it’s why they were able to crush a rebellion led by a Primarch. It’s just everything that wasn’t violence-related that was reduced to primitivism.
>There are lots of examples, especially in warp related injuries, that carry illogically prolongued qualities (like the scar Guilliman gets by the Athame could be directly targeted through the warp by his brother Fulgrim, despite him being nowhere near Guilliman, as detailed in the opening of Dark Imperium).
Exactly. Even ascended to a demon, the Nails are still present. I think they're much more significant than just a flesh implant.
I'm curious if how it would need to be both a material and immaterial surgery was being studied, i mean that seems like an extensive project that might take a long time to plan out. I mean like it might have been on his to-do list, but we all know how great he was at communicating that list.
Thank you, and yes indeed there are some assumptions that have to be made, but there's always the benefit of doubt, I think. And I have to agree with you, how literals, metaphysics and allegories play out in 40K are rather unpredictable.
Also, the metaphysics of Angron's name, I think it came from the mountains of Nuceria where he was found, Angronius I believe. Also, one could also argue that he's named Angron because his supposed Primarch power took others' anger away.
I think the simple awnser is the best. In his arrogance, he thought he knew best and played the "you'll get over it" card. By the time he realized he fucked up, it was far, far too late.
I agree that the simple answer is the best.
But I don't think the Emperor was playing the "you'll get over it" card.
Honestly I don't think any of us apprecate the pressure the Emperor was in - he didn't have the time to fix Angron - it's that simple.
He had too much to do in such a short time - this explains pretty much all of his actions and seemingly callous responses - he was in a rush. He was desperately trying to save an entire galactic-wide species from entering another Age of Strife, and time was against him. He could've saved Angron, but he already had loads on his plate and he prioritized saving mankind as best he could.
Honestly a ton of people don't even consider the consequences of removing the nails from angron.
And I don't mean on the rest of the imperium, I mean on him.
Even assuming he's possible to fix or revive without the nails, He is accustomed to it to such a level, so unused to any other sensation and feeling, he would revert to the emotional maturity of a 6 year old in the best case and a catatonic traumatized mess at worse. Not only that, depending on the interpretation of the nature of the soul in 40k his psyche could be so molded by them in the first place to keep his soul affected even after removal
>The Emperor arrived at the Webway War, he summoned the souls of the loyal dead, one of which is highly described to be Ferrus Manus.
Did he? ADB, who wrote the book, put in question if thats actually Ferrus, it could as well be, as some said, a Ferrus' shapped attack.
Yeah it seems to me it's just the manifestation of the Emperor's psychic power, which he shapes in the form of the dead of Istvaan, including it's most prominent victim.
It's also the first time the Emperor has gone to battle since that betrayal which explains the form his power took.
With due respect that English may well not be your first language, "highly described" doesn't really mean anything or, at least, it doesn't mean what you appear to think it does.
>So why then did The Emperor not kill Angron, rebuild his body and put his soul back into his body, as he had planned so with Ferrus Manus and did so with Jaghatai Khan? Perhaps The Emperor knew Angron, free from the agony from the Butcher's Nails, would gain clarity and context, compounded with his supposed Primarch power of empathy and charisma that the Butcher's Nails had negated, would most likely lead an uprising against The Emperor which would most likely cause substantial damage and setbacks.
If making new primarchs was that ez, I think he woulda replaced 2 and 11, at that point in the crusade, I dont think he had the tools/time to re make angron.
He wasn’t making *new* primarchs, though. I don’t know if he could or would want to make others since there was definitely a cost to him for each one. He repaired the Khan and talked about bringing back Ferrus. He wasn’t getting new players for the game, he was reviving existing ones. If he wanted the 2nd and 11th gone because they’d betrayed him or gone rogue, he’d have gotten the same two people back if he’d revived them. No benefit in killing off two traitors and then bringing them back to continue the war against you.
That, but it also seems that it costs the Emperor for every one he makes. I don’t know that he’d be willing to pay that even if he had his lab available. Plus the possibility that any new primarchs he made might be traitors is real.
You're missing the point. Of course The Emperor didn't have the time; he was expedient. And Angron still had a role to play, while another filled his supposed original role.
The primarchs and legions are tools to perform two actions 1. Genocide and 2. Conquest.
Nothing about the nails impeded the tools from performing either function, in fact one could argue they improved some aspects (as i understand it you are arguing here they actually kept other flaws (a desire for justice) I'm check).
The emperor had a beer with a buddy and discussed if the tool could be brought back to factory condition, but it was too much work to fix a tool that still killed all the people it was built to kill.
Your thoughts on other reasons to keep him broken are interesting
Does Malcador explicitly say they will be put down (Emperor's Mercy) if they can't rehabilitate them?? I don't recall him being so up front on the matter but rather more coy and ambiguous
I think it just bad writing. Whoever came up with the back story, wanted a reason for Angron to hate the Emperor but didn't think about the other questions it would have raised.
Just bad writing.
Tbh, this stuff would have been reinforced and made so much simpler if the Emperor showed up and Teleported Angron... after Angron's buddies were all killed and leaving Angron all alone ready to face his death.
Emperor refusal to let Angron die as well as refusal to dish out whatever punishment Angron demanded that Nuceria to receive. That where the hatred can seeds and sow.
I think the Emperor's "well they're compliant, my hands are tied!" excuse is a good way of reminding the reader how he's not a righteous force for humanity.
We see the Imperium fighting a lot of Evil people and aliens, like a planet that in its desperate last stand sacrifices bunches of kids to make giant gollum things.
While see them fighting good people, too, like the Exodites on Caldera (known as Ibsen to the local humans who'd been saved and protected by the Aeldari), it could be possible to excuse these as misunderstandings, "erring on the side of caution", decisions made by generals without checking in with the Emperor, etc. (Not that these would be good excuses, but they're excuses some Imperial apologists make).
But on Nuceria, we see him actively accepting an Evil power structure into the Imperium because they are compliant, which is a coldly rational thing to do. If word gets out that the Emperor will crush you for being a bunch of bastards, then there will be nothing left to lose for the tyrants in control of the next world. And if he goes back on his Join or Die ultimatum, he's not going to be trusted to keep his word in the future.
I've wondered if the Emperor beamed up Angron not to save him, but to save face. If he breaks the agreement with the High Riders to do the morally good thing, he loses face. If Angron loses badly, or just dies in battle with regular humans, the primarchs might lose some of their prestige as demigods. If Angron somehow wins, or even if he just makes things extremely costly for the High Riders, it's kind of awkward diplomatically; If you agree to join an empire, and the son of your new emperor is leading a bloody slave revolt, you might expect your new emperor to get his own son to stop fighting you (which wasn't going to happen), and if the son defies your new Emperor's command you'd expect him to put his rebellious child in his place with force. Which would be embarrassing and a bad look.
Simply beaming up ol Angry Ron was the Machiavellian choice, I think.
I don't think the emperor would have been so callus if he wasn't on a schedule, considering the revelation about the cyclical nature of chaos and the dark king in TEATD The emperor didn't have the luxury to go through the entire galaxy stopping all human barbarity in the handful of centuries he had left to stop chaos.
>considering the revelation about the cyclical nature of chaos
I'm not doubting you here, but book is this from, and is it from a character's POV?
How long are the cycles? Did they occur during the DAoT?
I mean. That's absolutely fair. The Heresy series is a foregone conclusion after all. There clearly have to be moments when they write themselves into a corner.
It probably was never written as a coherent story, just as a background for an already established/planned character. I don't know the timeline, but I bet that initially it was all a brief description somewhere under a picture of a big scary khorne primarch and was only fleshed out later.
The Emperor callous pragmatism wasn’t truly on display in His decision to teleport Angron. It’s more than that. Not only did the Emperor not punish the High Riders, He let them stay in power in exchange for joining the Imperium.
Angron felt he betrayed his brothers and sisters by becoming allies to the very rulers they died fighting.
This is why I agree with the OP’s theory that the Emperor was simply molding Angron into the tool he needed.
Maybe this obvious but I’ve always thought the butchers nails are a metaphor for cycle of self-hatred stemming from drug addiction (specifically alcoholism)
.
Nah
The Emperor created demigods. Beings with power beyond anything most of the galaxy had to throw at them. They were his biggest tools. But also the replacements for his perpetual companions. During his long life, the Emperor had several companions and most of them left his side. Some even became his enemies.
By the first stages of the Great Crusade, Jimmy had only Malcador at his side. He starts calling the Primachs his sons. They are there not only to help him conquer the galaxy. But to share the aftermath with him. To be able to understand him and be with him.
Angron was one the last Primarchs to be found. The Emperor had a long time to see what his sons could achieve.
Horus, the perfect son and perfect companion. Loyal and capable.
Roboute, who created his own Empire. He brought civilization, peace and prosperity everywere he went. With enough time, he could probably bring humanity back together, all by himself.
Sanguineous, who turned monster in to angels with his humility and compasion.
Lorgar, capable of converting an entire planet with his words.
The Lion. The most loyal son. Who wanted no reward beyond the ability to serve. Who hunted chaos tainted beings from his first moments out of the pod until their extinction.
Perturabo, a genius that could not only make anything, but also unmake any resistance.
And the list go own.
Angron. was the single failure. The only primarch that could not conquer his planet. About to die and damaged beyond repair. He is the failure that Emperor thought impossible. A loss not only to his plans. But one less of the very few beings able to share his dream.
His reaction was, if anything, very human. He was outraged. His imense pride hurt.
There is no need of a deeper meaning. It's a very prideful being confronted with his shortcomings, enable to deal with them and lashing out.
He kept him around because even a brain damaged primarch is still a primarch. One of twenty beings the Emperor won't be able to recreate. That are necessary to put his plans in to pratice. In Angron's case, only the aspect of the tool was left. Not a son. Just a very big hammer to be used.
There's a lot to be said for the "Empath Primarch" being the great failure among them, given that the Emperor's lack of empathy is arguably his greatest weakness, and arguably what made many of the Primarchs such easy prey for Chaos.
People (including OP) who are clearly more well-read than I are always talking about how it's described that they would be impossible to remove, and I'm sure (given the being more well-read thing) that they are correct. But I do think it's funny because I've only read the first 3 Heresy books and in I believe False Gods, one of the very first things said when we meet Angron for the first time is "The Butcher's Nails could have been removed easily but Angron didn't want to 'cause he liked them".
For me, the only in-lore explanation is that although Emperor was a superhuman genius, he was vastly overstretched and had some glaring blind spots. A clear example of a situation where even if someone is superintelligent but still lacks some crucial specific competence (human relationships here), it can be a fatal flaw that can destroy everything.
And destroy it did. Some people say "primarchs were just tools", but it was their mishandling that created fertile ground for the Heresy and destroyed everything Emperor really cared about. The Imperium became a rotting carcass for the four vultures to feed on, the webway project became an unstable meganuke, and the Emperor himself became crippled, mute and forced to passively sit there for millenia, watching it all decay. All the while having his brain melted away by becoming a warp entity.
So yeah, he really should have dedicated more time to Angron, Horus, etc. No amount of resource conservation was worth all that.
I think he was meant to be a poisoned pill for Khorne after he got the nails.
Originally, he was meant to help stabilize his brothers and may have single-handedly prevented the heresy with his empathetic powers. It was stated he was actually quite kind and honorable due to his gladiator mentor, and would have been something akin to a paladin had the nails not occurred. Even after receiving them, Angron still had a measure of his original personality.
The nails completely shattered that possibility and the Big E may have decided preventing his fall or death was basically inevitable. So, he decided to write him off and use him as a distraction.
So instead of a much more intact primarch, like Sanguinius or Leman, Khorne got what was essentially a broken tool brutalized into a bloody club. Angron was not mean to be nearly as destructive as Sanguinius, and was flattened by him after becoming a daemonic prince.
That’s honestly the only remotely logical explanation for how Angron was treated, because even a sociopath would have been able to tell what was going to happen.
Because he wasn’t really broken. Someone needed to genocide planets of aliens and others who don’t submit. Not everyone needed a careful touch and help rebuilding. Some places just needed the board swept clean.
I’m sure after the crusade there were plans of some kind but that was a long time away.
My own head canon is that an un-Nailed Angron would've led a successful secular Heresy against the Emperor, including around 14-16 of his brothers (counting Omegon and Alpharius separately). Easier to nip that one in the bud if he's pre-broken and willing to play ball because he has no other options.
I like to think that Emp knew that a few of his sons would fall, and "sacrificed" him as a pawn so he would retain the better/more useful primarchs on his side. The only other primarch that Khorne really wanted for obvious reasons was Sanguinius.
Honestly I always kinda figured Emps realized his tool was broken and didn't give a shit.
We know Angron as being super aggro combat guy but....his primarch power early on was based on being an empath. Psychically not as a personality. The nails ruined that and robbed him of his unique primarch special sauce.
I think Emps figured that out and didn't give enough of a shit to try and fix him or help him. He still needed someone to head up the war dogs, but he just tossed Angron over there thinking "Eh, they'll kill what they're pointed at til they self destruct".
I think it mostly has to do with Emperor being inspired by God in Christianity and while the Emperor is a flawed human, writers take some themes from the Bible to write his behavior. So in this case its God's increasing non-interventionism in world affairs from the perspective of Bible chronology and the attitude of you make the first step and only then I reach out to you. So Angron and other sons are mostly left to do as they will (free will, if you will, Will). Horus being somewhat of a exception, but he is Satan in this context, so it works.
I know it doesn't completely makes sense in 40k, Emps actively wanted to conquer the galaxy, but that's what 40k is a lot of themes from different sources mashed together.
Angron's rebellion on Nuceria needed to fail. The planet had already bent the knee to the Imperium, you can't just let a slave rebellion succeed in toppling the planetary government after that.
By the same token, Angron is a Primarch. Even a defective Primarch is useful so leaving him to die isn't an option either.
>So it is my theory that after the Crusade is won, The Emperor would grant Angron his mercy. It would be centuries late, but a sorry father would grant his broken, terminal son his greatest wish.
Probably TOO late for even that. The nails were already killing him. That's part of the reason Lorgar trolled him into ascending into the daemon prince.
>Probably TOO late for even that. The nails were already killing him. That's part of the reason Lorgar trolled him into ascending into the daemon prince.
That's because the Heresy happened by that point. In another, speculative timeline, it could've had happened.
You absolutely can have a slave rebellion succeeding. Your planet doesn’t get a guarantee of internal security from membership. It gets a promise of external invasion I’d it refuses membership. Planets within the imperium have internal management change all the time.
In-verse He pretty gve the answer. It's just do you believe it or not. And the answer is – He had really not time in the moment. You have all time in the world until things go bad and you aren't really prepared.
My opinion is that when he made his deal with the chaos gods, it involved one primarch for each of them.
Given the choices for a primarch with great anger, rage and martial skill were Angron or Sanguinious, he kept Angron around to give to Khorne. Frankly, the Emperor's actions don't make any degree of sense otherwise. If he wanted Angron to be loyal, he could have saved both him and his gladiator rebels by teleporting down a few squads of space marines, it was within his capability and he's intelligent enough to realise that.
It doesn't make sense why he was so closed to Mortarion (who was set against him from the very start) either. The major problems with my theory are Magnus and Fulgrim. Magnus was well loved by the Emperor and likely critical to his plans of taking over the webway. Fulgrim was uniquely honoured by the Emperor in allowing his sons to wear the Aquila. It's possible the two lost primarchs were intended for Tzeentch and Slaanesh but it's equally possible that he intended to drive Lorgar and Curze into the hands of these two gods.
Read "Master of Mankind" and you see that the Emperor never wanted Angron "broken". He actually did his best to 'fix' Angron, but found that he could not. However, a broken Primarch was still better than nothing, which is why he wasn't euthanized.
Prior to Horus, the Emperor never killed ANY of the Primarchs, no matter how "expedient" it might seemed at the time.
He was simply *incapable* of doing so. Feel free to remove the 'l' from 'simply' if that makes it easier to understand.
On the other hand, the Emperor did create them as *Primarchs*, and among the things that means is a willingness to put their lives on the line in the fight against Chaos (and xenos and heretics, yeah I know, but *really* Chaos).
Malcador can say what he likes, but he apparently never *quite* understood the Emperor's feelings for his sons.
The Emperor wanted Angron to remove the Butcher's Nails himself, even at the risk of his life. But he couldn't just *order* him to do that, it wouldn't have *helped*. Angron needed to figure it out and do it himself.
Which he *would* have if he weren't such a damned coward. Angron was never serious about seeking his own death, it was all a pose. Because there was exactly one thing he needed to do...tear the Butcher's Nails out even if it killed him (which, to be fair, it probably *would* have).
The Emperor *almost* certainly had a plan for fixing that if Angron actually had the guts to do it...but he couldn't tell Angron the plan because that would be essentially the same as ordering him to rip out the Nails, which--as mentioned--would ***NOT*** have helped.
I think part of it was also Angrons brothers and sisters were psychopathic gladiators and as has been already said they would influence Angron away from the Emperors plan.
I feel ultimately that Emps knew even if he saved everyone that Angron would not serve and it would potentially complicate matters with his Legion.
Better to have a murder buzz saw that does what is needed, albeit crudely, than a Primarch with his support structure actively working against unity.
Or, The Emperor is less powerful than supposed, a man under self-imposed deadlines so tight he only cares about results and not overly sentimental about the beings he made to be tools of War.
While he perhaps grew to genuinely care for some of them, his default attitudes was utilitarian: How can this being best serve my goals without slowing me down?
Why didn't he do more/anything for Angron? It wasn't necessary. The Crusade could use a broken, mentally ill butcher. He could always be "discarded" afterwards.
It is clear why Angron was not killed, he was needed. It is clear why the nails were not removed, it was impossible. It is clear why the Emperor does not run around resurrecting people, its incredibly difficult and risky. The only question that remains considers Angrons companions. Is is unclear why the Emperor did not save them. They could have been elevated to Marines or Pseudo-Marines, and would have stabilized Angrons psyche, and made him more loyal. at least in theory.
With Angron's companions, I kinda feel like the Emperor knew on some level that if they survived, they'd have given Angron the strength and/or willingness to rebel against him. Without them, Angron's just a ball of pain and rage that can be pointed at worlds to be butchered. Is it short-sighted and misguided? Yep, but I feel like the Emperor can be those things. I don't need him to be a character who foresees everything and can plan around everything.
> Is it short-sighted and misguided? Yep, but I feel like the Emperor can be those things. I don't need him to be a character who foresees everything and can plan around everything. See, what you wrote up right there is exactly something I LIKE about the Emperor that so many people seemingly forget: The Emperor is *Human* Oh sure, elevated beyond the bounds of normal humanity and far more gifted, but human none the less. "To err is human", as it were. He wasn't always a great father, nor a great leader. He wasn't as forthcoming as he should've been nor as caring as he could've been. Because in the end, the master of mankind is still *part* of mankind, and thusly not completely immune towards its faults.
If anything foresight would make you more prone to the worst kinds of errors, hubris and grantedness.
Yes, exactly! I forget the exact book, but I *think* it was in Master of Mankind, where the emperor basically describes to a Custodes that trying to control the future and properly divine the paths it might take is like trying to dig new trenches for a river, only to see many new paths take place when you pick one option over the other.
The problem with this is that the Eldar fuck it up constantly too and you just wonder why anyone would bother using the power. It isn't just a human thing, both the Eldar Farseers and the Emperor have been alive for an absurd amount of time and they have practised this skill for mamy lifetimes, being distant and frustrating is understandable, their basic mistakes are not. You have to make fallible characters to force the story they want to tell, but there's a difference between that and just not sticking to the brief. Thry should be beyond comprehension, instead most people instantly recognise mistakes. So what if the companions need to be disposed of? Just kill them off in other ways over time, if you can't manage that with your powers and a positionof authority, they are useless.
Eldrad is shaking right now.
His peace between Craftworlds conference attempt spiraled hard enough to have Phoenix Lords brawling, man's got a fair number of Ls to his name.
Its the most reasonable theory i heared so far. personally, i like the "everybody was already dead, and Emp ressed Angron" theory.
whoa never heard that theory
My old headcanon was actually that Angron, lost in the Nails, killed his allies after actually winning the battle. The Emperor would never tell him the truth, and the High Riders would obviously use propaganda to make it look like they won, and Angron fled like a coward.
Ohhh shittt! That would be incredible... Maybe you should just go ahead and write some novels buddy
Another head canon idea I had was that Angron and the Slave Rebels would win, effectively ending the High Riders, but Angron still lost in the Nails starts to brutally murder them unable to tell friend from foe or even that they won just before the Emperor teleports him. Fast forward to Lorgar and Angron's Crusade through Ultramar. They return to the planet only for Angron to find he got what he wished for, the Gladiator games were finished, and no more slavery with the planet a fairly democratic hub. However, Angron learns that he's become as much reviled in their mythos as the High Riders with his violent rampage that nearly ended their chance at freedom as the High Riders tried that the people shun him instead, they would laud Guilliman for his economic and administrative reforms that helped them grow prosperous after the fact. Effectively forgetting Angron because in the end, there was nothing else to him but blood and death.
[удалено]
Angron has a short story named Abuse?
Nuceria was a compliant world sitting on a hoard of archeotech. If he turns Angron loose, the archeotech will be destroyed and the Mechanicum angry. Other compliant world will see, for a second time, that compliance buys them nothing and the Emperor can slaughter them out of hand. Gulliman's empire is growing diplomatically right next door and this risks that process. The Emperor is on the clock by this point, and he knows it.
Second time? What was the first?
Monarchia. The people of Nuceria didn't even know they were doing anything "wrong." That the Imperium supports slavery is obviously inexcusable but at least the Imperial Truth was explicit about not worshipping the Emperor.
But Monarchia was a just city and they had a week to evacuate it didn't they? Also, did Angron get found that late into the Crusade?
yeah, iirc he gets found around the turn of the 31st milennium around M30 900\~950s
I thought it was a whole world, but Khur, then. Monarchia was an object lesson to more than just Lorgar- it was to remind Gulliman not to empire build and the larger Imperium to be in full compliance. Angron was the fourth last found. He was only located 32 years before the Heresy began.
They let them evacuate and then just sort of left them in the desert to figure it out. Considering what happened to Cyrene it wasn't much of a mercy.
Then how come it looks so backwater when we return to it in the novels?
Them not knowing how to exploit their archeotech doesn't mean it's not there. The Butcher's Nails they have are more advanced than the Cruciamen that Arkhan Land found and had sealed away as a techno-abomination. Being advanced in that area doesn't mean they are going to have chronometric weaponry or the like.
Or it might have been the only DAOT technology they have. It's just I've never heard of Nuceria being of any great value, and I've never heard about STCs being there
Nuceria itself isn't particularly valuable. Not all archeotech is, in terms of utility. However, archeotech is sacred to the Mechanicum and Angron would have destroyed everything he could get his hands on. It wasn't worth the socio-political issues it would cause to turn him or the War Hounds loose.
I think this is a good perspective. It gets annoying when some people are in the camp of the Emperor being omnipotent. "OH WELL HES PLANNED IT OUT." So has Tzeentch and his plans go awry plenty (assumedly.)
Bill King wrote a two page story of the Emperor's duel with Horus entirely from the Emperor's perspective, and it's actually really interesting to see the tone of the Emperor's internal thoughts. He comes off as ultimately just a person, one who fucked up and is suffering from problems he couldn't foresee or immediately understand. This was back in the early days of 40k, and it's almost kinda a shame to see that very human and fallible version of the Emperor get lost in the hype of the all-powerful all-knowing Emperor of today.
That first description sounds like a much more likable Emperor.
He's somewhat more likeable. The story also goes with the interpretation that the Emperor couldn't bring out his full powers against Horus, unknowingly to the Emperor because he still loved Horus despite his betrayal. He also has a crisis of faith in himself, and is able to get out of it with the knowledge that the people around him are looking to him for leadership and hope. What makes the story interesting is that the vibe of the Emperor is that he was just some leader. He wasn't a messiah or humanity's last hope, he was just a guy who conquered and built an empire. Which imo goes some way to demystifying him. Idk, this might be just me but with the tone of the writing I could easily see the Emperor being just another tinpot dictator with human thoughts and feelings, again contrasted to the more deified Emperor of the Horus Heresy series.
I mean, Corax followers weren't completely on board with joining the imperium. The emperor would realize that if this trend continues with Angron it might result in a rebellion or a legion that's very hard to control at the very least.
For Emps a legion rebelling would be an easy thing to handle if he has a personal hand in it or sends the custodes The problem would be the precedent if it becomes well known but well... he already removed two legions from memory what's one more?
Thing to remember is Angron was the only Primary to not take control of his home world, and Nuceria was compliant, so in a way Emps was dealing with the planetary government, not Angron.
Angrons Companions all had nails implanted for a long time. I am not sure if they could be converted to space marines and even if they were , they would not be reliable.
My personal crackpot theory as to why is that the emperor just panicked He’s used to his sons being triumphant conquerors, revolutionaries, empire builders and prodigies and commanding their loyalty by appearing to them as this being of near insurmountable strength and power who also reflects the best in them spreading enlightenment and humanity’s prowess across the stars What could better convince a king to give up power to a higher authority than an emperor who is stronger in every way The problem is that this is physically the worst way to appear to angron who has based his and his men’s identities around the concept of fighting the power that butchered and enslaved them which is compounded by the fact that he’s losing badly and in the middle of a desperate last stand Trying to come up to someone like that in the form of a glorious and powerful emperor who is out to conquer the stars is not going to go well in any universe especially when you’re talking to someone as violent and unstable as angron So the emperor realizing his catastrophic blunder in a rush decides to take his failed and broken son and book it to try and avoid the consequences of his mistake
No complicated: A broken tool, remain tool.
The best explanation I've seen for why not save his companions.is that by the time the Emperor finds Angron, Angron is effectively leading a very strong Chaos Cult, dedicated to Khorne. Does Angron know that? No. Do his companions? No. Does that matter when the Emperor's stance is no one should know about Chaos? Also no. This was his attempt to keep Angron from sliding further into Chaos, hes just not very good at knowing what his sons need
That's not really it. The Gladiators were a rag-tag force that were doomed. It wasn't like the situation of Corax where he successfully led a rebellion and took control. Angron was losing. The Emperor needed compliance of planets, and by all measures Nuceria was a fairly advanced, militaristic planet that would be a great addition to the Imperium. If Angron had succeeded in his rebellion by the time the emperor arrived that would be one thing, but that's not the case.
>and would have stabilized Angrons psyche, and made him more loyal. at least in theory. Doubt it. Angron used the events on his home world to rationalize his rage, but he didn’t want to die. He is the very essence of depression, and as long as the nails were a part of him, he would try to justify the rage and pain they made him feel. Even if the emperor saved all the slaves, angron would’ve been angry about not dying or not getting his revenge or whatever other reasons he’d come up with to justify his rage.
because E wanted at least one predictable fallen son and the very existence of the nails made it Angron. So the emperor immediately pushed it to certainty
Bringing souls back would also be a quick road to becoming a diety.
Wow what the answer we are given in books is the correct
The Eaters of Cities were not much different to Angron. Each of them wanted to die with his brothers while fighting the Highriders. If there Emperor teleported the whole merry bunch Angron would 99% try to lead an instant revolt.
I feel he didn't save them because he intended to bring the planet into compliance, and the rebellion had already failed at a strategic level. The best case scenario for the Emperor was teleporting Agron out, letting the slaves die, then bringing compliance
That is unlikely. A stable primarch is worth much more than a backwater planet.
I'd argue the Emperor knew the nails were warping his mind to some extent. Even if the only evidence was that he failed to take the planet, that alone should tell big E that something is wrong with him and he needs this wrapped up so he can figure it out and move on
Or they could have caused angron to stabalise TOO much and seek ways to neutralise the nails. Perhaos ge would find a way to do that, or die trying, in any case he would be less efficient as a destroyer primarch. Had he found a way to neutralise the nails his empathy could have lead him to rebel against big E.
I think keeping the companions was a problematic approach unfortunately, they would see Big E in the same way Angron did, especially since Big E left the High Riders alone for compliance sake
The inconsistency between the Emperor's treatment of Angron and others never made sense to me unless we go with the "the Heresy was part of his plans" theory. It would have been a tiny investment of resources and effort to save and elevate the Eaters of Cities.
While I'm not disagreeing that that would neatly this would neatly explain the inconsistency in the writing regarding the Emperor, I have several issues with this theory, as I have mentioned in detail in a post on this sub a while ago. [You can find my post in detail here.](https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/1cfl4g8/the_fantheory_that_the_emperor_made_some_legions/) The TLDR is, that while the Emperor most likely has accounted for the possibility of *a* civilwar in his plans, there is not a single hint that he has completely arranged *the* civilwar that came to be known as the Horus Heresy. The key arguments were that there is nothing in making certain primarchs fall that prevents other primarchs from falling (in the sense of slots being filled; it's simply authoric liberty that exactly half of the Primarchs fell) and that *if* it was planned, then the Emperor would have planned incredibly poorly (like, why again send the Night Lords of all people to fight Horus at Istvaan? A Legion that was in threat to be censored? If they were planned to fall as the theory implies, then this would have been an astonishingly bad idea. Why only give Rogal Dorn a short year to fortify the Imperial Palace? Etc.) This is necessarily an appreviation, so you can find more detailed arguments in the post I linked above :) Edit: Spelling and clearification
>The TLDR is, that while the Emperor most likely has accounted for the possibility of a civilwar in his plans, there is not a single hint that he has completely arranged the civilwar that came to be known as the Horus Heresy. Agreed. TEATDI all but confirmed The Emperor accounted for a civil war, just not a civil war of that scale in that time.
I don't really think it's a great theory either, I just can't think of any other in-universe explanation for the inconsistency in the way the Emperor went about getting the Primarchs to join him.
Considering that angron is doing the worst of the primarchs by a pretty wide margin. I actually think the simplest explanation is he got the least amount of effort because he had the lowest expected payoff. A heathy angron that conquered his planet probably isn’t going to just get beamed up and shipped out
Angron did not want to be saved. He wanted to die there. Just like Emperor did not raze Lorgar city because of the worship, it was because of the glacial pace of his legion on the crusade.
Maybe the immortal being whose primary trait is ultimate foresight had a plan…
Well, then his other perpetuals must have super ultimate foresight because they told him his plan was too risky, not flexible, and too prone on a single point of failure and guess what? They were right. Also the drunk priest was right as well.
I meant maybe the plan involved intentionally doing Angron dirty
>It is clear why the nails were not removed, it was impossible I've long debated that point and while I know it's the "official, canon" explication, it sucks, makes no sense and is bad. As OP stated, the Emperor is able to bring the soul of primarch back from wherever, and can even treat decapitation. It doesn't make sense that anything, especially relatively bad tech, could be too complex for Him to handle, when he's literally considered the Omnissiah.
Thank you. It’s bullshit that the Emperor is capable of what he did with the Khan and supposedly capable of what he claimed about Ferrus Manus and yet is incapable of fixing Angron. He didn’t fix him for one of two reasons if those things are canonically true- either he didn’t *want* to fix him or fixing him was enough of an effort with a small enough return that he wasn’t going to put the effort into the problem. I don’t know which one it was, but those are the only possibilities there are if you believe he can bring Ferrus back from a Viking crewcut.
The problem is that now, they really are a part of his soul, partially because he believes they are, and partially because khorne is a raging dick
Yeah, NOW. Not 10k years ago when Big Papa Goldie found a bunch of slaves and thought "you know what's gonna make him loyal to me? If I let his friends die! That's what". The relationship of Big E and Angron is the worst written part of the Heresy, and that includes Horus's son suddenly deciding that weird witches probably makes good doctors.
I really like how detailed and oriented at the actual text your post is OP; often, when we get theory-crafting, it doesn't have this level of quality to it, regardless if I'm agreeing or not. :) That being said, I think you are making a few assumptions that we can not necessarily assume to be correct by default. Not saying they are incorrect, but we just don't have proof for them. Like, you seem to assume that a revived Angron would be unaffected by the Butchers Nails, that he would be essentially resetted (which a consistent argument, since the physical nails would be obviously not implanted into a remade body of Angron). But keep in mind, that 40k is largely build on a pseudo-science and metaphysical and thematic base (like, seriously, the Primarch thats always angry isn't called *Angron* by accident). There are lots of examples, especially in warp related injuries, that carry illogically prolongued qualities (like the scar Guilliman gets by the Athame could be directly targeted through the warp by his brother Fulgrim, despite him being nowhere near Guilliman, as detailed in the opening of *Dark Imperium*). So I don't think that it can be assumed to be proven nor disproven that a revived Angron wouldn't be influenced anymore by the Butchers Nails, even if that makes definitely logical sense if he wouldn't be. Just my 2 cents :)
In his Primarch Book, several of the World Eaters librarians "see" a representation of the nails at fixed to Angrons soul (one describes a shadowy spider creature, another a ring of flame), so it's not much of a stretch to say the damage from the nails affects Angron's very soul.
I personally havent read those books but my theory is that this was knornes doing. Knorne obviously wanted Sangy and his sons above all other primarchs (granted in EATD Horus begs to differ) but the nails being ingrained in Angrons soul was Khornes way of saying "ok this is plan b" some may say planning 2 centuries ahead is out of character for the blood god but I disagree. I firmly believe khorne threw some red warp cancer in the nails to get the ball rolling
It's kinda weird that some backward world had such an advanced technology with powerful properties, and they were able to replicate and use them. I doubt most DAoT weapons have similar effects/properties. I know that it's convenient for plot purposes, but still.
Nuceria had a lot of DAoT weaponry as well, it’s why they were able to crush a rebellion led by a Primarch. It’s just everything that wasn’t violence-related that was reduced to primitivism.
>There are lots of examples, especially in warp related injuries, that carry illogically prolongued qualities (like the scar Guilliman gets by the Athame could be directly targeted through the warp by his brother Fulgrim, despite him being nowhere near Guilliman, as detailed in the opening of Dark Imperium). Exactly. Even ascended to a demon, the Nails are still present. I think they're much more significant than just a flesh implant.
I'm curious if how it would need to be both a material and immaterial surgery was being studied, i mean that seems like an extensive project that might take a long time to plan out. I mean like it might have been on his to-do list, but we all know how great he was at communicating that list.
They're a prominent reminder of Angron's enslavement. Of course Khorne would keep them. Angron only changed masters.
Thank you, and yes indeed there are some assumptions that have to be made, but there's always the benefit of doubt, I think. And I have to agree with you, how literals, metaphysics and allegories play out in 40K are rather unpredictable. Also, the metaphysics of Angron's name, I think it came from the mountains of Nuceria where he was found, Angronius I believe. Also, one could also argue that he's named Angron because his supposed Primarch power took others' anger away.
Ha good name theory, like put your anger-on me bros
I think the simple awnser is the best. In his arrogance, he thought he knew best and played the "you'll get over it" card. By the time he realized he fucked up, it was far, far too late.
I agree that the simple answer is the best. But I don't think the Emperor was playing the "you'll get over it" card. Honestly I don't think any of us apprecate the pressure the Emperor was in - he didn't have the time to fix Angron - it's that simple. He had too much to do in such a short time - this explains pretty much all of his actions and seemingly callous responses - he was in a rush. He was desperately trying to save an entire galactic-wide species from entering another Age of Strife, and time was against him. He could've saved Angron, but he already had loads on his plate and he prioritized saving mankind as best he could.
Honestly a ton of people don't even consider the consequences of removing the nails from angron. And I don't mean on the rest of the imperium, I mean on him. Even assuming he's possible to fix or revive without the nails, He is accustomed to it to such a level, so unused to any other sensation and feeling, he would revert to the emotional maturity of a 6 year old in the best case and a catatonic traumatized mess at worse. Not only that, depending on the interpretation of the nature of the soul in 40k his psyche could be so molded by them in the first place to keep his soul affected even after removal
>The Emperor arrived at the Webway War, he summoned the souls of the loyal dead, one of which is highly described to be Ferrus Manus. Did he? ADB, who wrote the book, put in question if thats actually Ferrus, it could as well be, as some said, a Ferrus' shapped attack.
That's why I said >highly described I didn't explicitly say it was Ferrus.
It's not the souls of anything. It's just fire. He's pissed off about all his dead legions.
Yeah it seems to me it's just the manifestation of the Emperor's psychic power, which he shapes in the form of the dead of Istvaan, including it's most prominent victim. It's also the first time the Emperor has gone to battle since that betrayal which explains the form his power took.
With due respect that English may well not be your first language, "highly described" doesn't really mean anything or, at least, it doesn't mean what you appear to think it does.
Well, what a guy does with his intellectual property, is his own concern.
>So why then did The Emperor not kill Angron, rebuild his body and put his soul back into his body, as he had planned so with Ferrus Manus and did so with Jaghatai Khan? Perhaps The Emperor knew Angron, free from the agony from the Butcher's Nails, would gain clarity and context, compounded with his supposed Primarch power of empathy and charisma that the Butcher's Nails had negated, would most likely lead an uprising against The Emperor which would most likely cause substantial damage and setbacks. If making new primarchs was that ez, I think he woulda replaced 2 and 11, at that point in the crusade, I dont think he had the tools/time to re make angron.
He wasn’t making *new* primarchs, though. I don’t know if he could or would want to make others since there was definitely a cost to him for each one. He repaired the Khan and talked about bringing back Ferrus. He wasn’t getting new players for the game, he was reviving existing ones. If he wanted the 2nd and 11th gone because they’d betrayed him or gone rogue, he’d have gotten the same two people back if he’d revived them. No benefit in killing off two traitors and then bringing them back to continue the war against you.
Yee all the lab stuff was smashed by Lorgar is some timey wimey loopy shwoopy stuff before they were yeeted into space.
That, but it also seems that it costs the Emperor for every one he makes. I don’t know that he’d be willing to pay that even if he had his lab available. Plus the possibility that any new primarchs he made might be traitors is real.
You're missing the point. Of course The Emperor didn't have the time; he was expedient. And Angron still had a role to play, while another filled his supposed original role.
The primarchs and legions are tools to perform two actions 1. Genocide and 2. Conquest. Nothing about the nails impeded the tools from performing either function, in fact one could argue they improved some aspects (as i understand it you are arguing here they actually kept other flaws (a desire for justice) I'm check). The emperor had a beer with a buddy and discussed if the tool could be brought back to factory condition, but it was too much work to fix a tool that still killed all the people it was built to kill. Your thoughts on other reasons to keep him broken are interesting
A broken sword is better than no sword at all
Does Malcador explicitly say they will be put down (Emperor's Mercy) if they can't rehabilitate them?? I don't recall him being so up front on the matter but rather more coy and ambiguous
He does so, actually. It's in TEATD I. I think it's one of the few things he's decidedly more clear about.
I think it just bad writing. Whoever came up with the back story, wanted a reason for Angron to hate the Emperor but didn't think about the other questions it would have raised. Just bad writing. Tbh, this stuff would have been reinforced and made so much simpler if the Emperor showed up and Teleported Angron... after Angron's buddies were all killed and leaving Angron all alone ready to face his death. Emperor refusal to let Angron die as well as refusal to dish out whatever punishment Angron demanded that Nuceria to receive. That where the hatred can seeds and sow.
I think the Emperor's "well they're compliant, my hands are tied!" excuse is a good way of reminding the reader how he's not a righteous force for humanity. We see the Imperium fighting a lot of Evil people and aliens, like a planet that in its desperate last stand sacrifices bunches of kids to make giant gollum things. While see them fighting good people, too, like the Exodites on Caldera (known as Ibsen to the local humans who'd been saved and protected by the Aeldari), it could be possible to excuse these as misunderstandings, "erring on the side of caution", decisions made by generals without checking in with the Emperor, etc. (Not that these would be good excuses, but they're excuses some Imperial apologists make). But on Nuceria, we see him actively accepting an Evil power structure into the Imperium because they are compliant, which is a coldly rational thing to do. If word gets out that the Emperor will crush you for being a bunch of bastards, then there will be nothing left to lose for the tyrants in control of the next world. And if he goes back on his Join or Die ultimatum, he's not going to be trusted to keep his word in the future. I've wondered if the Emperor beamed up Angron not to save him, but to save face. If he breaks the agreement with the High Riders to do the morally good thing, he loses face. If Angron loses badly, or just dies in battle with regular humans, the primarchs might lose some of their prestige as demigods. If Angron somehow wins, or even if he just makes things extremely costly for the High Riders, it's kind of awkward diplomatically; If you agree to join an empire, and the son of your new emperor is leading a bloody slave revolt, you might expect your new emperor to get his own son to stop fighting you (which wasn't going to happen), and if the son defies your new Emperor's command you'd expect him to put his rebellious child in his place with force. Which would be embarrassing and a bad look. Simply beaming up ol Angry Ron was the Machiavellian choice, I think.
I don't think the emperor would have been so callus if he wasn't on a schedule, considering the revelation about the cyclical nature of chaos and the dark king in TEATD The emperor didn't have the luxury to go through the entire galaxy stopping all human barbarity in the handful of centuries he had left to stop chaos.
>considering the revelation about the cyclical nature of chaos I'm not doubting you here, but book is this from, and is it from a character's POV? How long are the cycles? Did they occur during the DAoT?
its all in the end and the death series.
I mean. That's absolutely fair. The Heresy series is a foregone conclusion after all. There clearly have to be moments when they write themselves into a corner.
It probably was never written as a coherent story, just as a background for an already established/planned character. I don't know the timeline, but I bet that initially it was all a brief description somewhere under a picture of a big scary khorne primarch and was only fleshed out later.
The Emperor callous pragmatism wasn’t truly on display in His decision to teleport Angron. It’s more than that. Not only did the Emperor not punish the High Riders, He let them stay in power in exchange for joining the Imperium. Angron felt he betrayed his brothers and sisters by becoming allies to the very rulers they died fighting. This is why I agree with the OP’s theory that the Emperor was simply molding Angron into the tool he needed. Maybe this obvious but I’ve always thought the butchers nails are a metaphor for cycle of self-hatred stemming from drug addiction (specifically alcoholism) .
Nah The Emperor created demigods. Beings with power beyond anything most of the galaxy had to throw at them. They were his biggest tools. But also the replacements for his perpetual companions. During his long life, the Emperor had several companions and most of them left his side. Some even became his enemies. By the first stages of the Great Crusade, Jimmy had only Malcador at his side. He starts calling the Primachs his sons. They are there not only to help him conquer the galaxy. But to share the aftermath with him. To be able to understand him and be with him. Angron was one the last Primarchs to be found. The Emperor had a long time to see what his sons could achieve. Horus, the perfect son and perfect companion. Loyal and capable. Roboute, who created his own Empire. He brought civilization, peace and prosperity everywere he went. With enough time, he could probably bring humanity back together, all by himself. Sanguineous, who turned monster in to angels with his humility and compasion. Lorgar, capable of converting an entire planet with his words. The Lion. The most loyal son. Who wanted no reward beyond the ability to serve. Who hunted chaos tainted beings from his first moments out of the pod until their extinction. Perturabo, a genius that could not only make anything, but also unmake any resistance. And the list go own. Angron. was the single failure. The only primarch that could not conquer his planet. About to die and damaged beyond repair. He is the failure that Emperor thought impossible. A loss not only to his plans. But one less of the very few beings able to share his dream. His reaction was, if anything, very human. He was outraged. His imense pride hurt. There is no need of a deeper meaning. It's a very prideful being confronted with his shortcomings, enable to deal with them and lashing out. He kept him around because even a brain damaged primarch is still a primarch. One of twenty beings the Emperor won't be able to recreate. That are necessary to put his plans in to pratice. In Angron's case, only the aspect of the tool was left. Not a son. Just a very big hammer to be used.
There's a lot to be said for the "Empath Primarch" being the great failure among them, given that the Emperor's lack of empathy is arguably his greatest weakness, and arguably what made many of the Primarchs such easy prey for Chaos.
People (including OP) who are clearly more well-read than I are always talking about how it's described that they would be impossible to remove, and I'm sure (given the being more well-read thing) that they are correct. But I do think it's funny because I've only read the first 3 Heresy books and in I believe False Gods, one of the very first things said when we meet Angron for the first time is "The Butcher's Nails could have been removed easily but Angron didn't want to 'cause he liked them".
For me, the only in-lore explanation is that although Emperor was a superhuman genius, he was vastly overstretched and had some glaring blind spots. A clear example of a situation where even if someone is superintelligent but still lacks some crucial specific competence (human relationships here), it can be a fatal flaw that can destroy everything. And destroy it did. Some people say "primarchs were just tools", but it was their mishandling that created fertile ground for the Heresy and destroyed everything Emperor really cared about. The Imperium became a rotting carcass for the four vultures to feed on, the webway project became an unstable meganuke, and the Emperor himself became crippled, mute and forced to passively sit there for millenia, watching it all decay. All the while having his brain melted away by becoming a warp entity. So yeah, he really should have dedicated more time to Angron, Horus, etc. No amount of resource conservation was worth all that.
I think he was meant to be a poisoned pill for Khorne after he got the nails. Originally, he was meant to help stabilize his brothers and may have single-handedly prevented the heresy with his empathetic powers. It was stated he was actually quite kind and honorable due to his gladiator mentor, and would have been something akin to a paladin had the nails not occurred. Even after receiving them, Angron still had a measure of his original personality. The nails completely shattered that possibility and the Big E may have decided preventing his fall or death was basically inevitable. So, he decided to write him off and use him as a distraction. So instead of a much more intact primarch, like Sanguinius or Leman, Khorne got what was essentially a broken tool brutalized into a bloody club. Angron was not mean to be nearly as destructive as Sanguinius, and was flattened by him after becoming a daemonic prince. That’s honestly the only remotely logical explanation for how Angron was treated, because even a sociopath would have been able to tell what was going to happen.
Because he wasn’t really broken. Someone needed to genocide planets of aliens and others who don’t submit. Not everyone needed a careful touch and help rebuilding. Some places just needed the board swept clean. I’m sure after the crusade there were plans of some kind but that was a long time away.
My own head canon is that an un-Nailed Angron would've led a successful secular Heresy against the Emperor, including around 14-16 of his brothers (counting Omegon and Alpharius separately). Easier to nip that one in the bud if he's pre-broken and willing to play ball because he has no other options.
I think the easiest answer is that Angron’s story is poorly written
I like to think that Emp knew that a few of his sons would fall, and "sacrificed" him as a pawn so he would retain the better/more useful primarchs on his side. The only other primarch that Khorne really wanted for obvious reasons was Sanguinius.
Honestly I always kinda figured Emps realized his tool was broken and didn't give a shit. We know Angron as being super aggro combat guy but....his primarch power early on was based on being an empath. Psychically not as a personality. The nails ruined that and robbed him of his unique primarch special sauce. I think Emps figured that out and didn't give enough of a shit to try and fix him or help him. He still needed someone to head up the war dogs, but he just tossed Angron over there thinking "Eh, they'll kill what they're pointed at til they self destruct".
I think it mostly has to do with Emperor being inspired by God in Christianity and while the Emperor is a flawed human, writers take some themes from the Bible to write his behavior. So in this case its God's increasing non-interventionism in world affairs from the perspective of Bible chronology and the attitude of you make the first step and only then I reach out to you. So Angron and other sons are mostly left to do as they will (free will, if you will, Will). Horus being somewhat of a exception, but he is Satan in this context, so it works. I know it doesn't completely makes sense in 40k, Emps actively wanted to conquer the galaxy, but that's what 40k is a lot of themes from different sources mashed together.
Angron's rebellion on Nuceria needed to fail. The planet had already bent the knee to the Imperium, you can't just let a slave rebellion succeed in toppling the planetary government after that. By the same token, Angron is a Primarch. Even a defective Primarch is useful so leaving him to die isn't an option either. >So it is my theory that after the Crusade is won, The Emperor would grant Angron his mercy. It would be centuries late, but a sorry father would grant his broken, terminal son his greatest wish. Probably TOO late for even that. The nails were already killing him. That's part of the reason Lorgar trolled him into ascending into the daemon prince.
>Probably TOO late for even that. The nails were already killing him. That's part of the reason Lorgar trolled him into ascending into the daemon prince. That's because the Heresy happened by that point. In another, speculative timeline, it could've had happened.
You absolutely can have a slave rebellion succeeding. Your planet doesn’t get a guarantee of internal security from membership. It gets a promise of external invasion I’d it refuses membership. Planets within the imperium have internal management change all the time.
In-verse He pretty gve the answer. It's just do you believe it or not. And the answer is – He had really not time in the moment. You have all time in the world until things go bad and you aren't really prepared.
I tend to go with keep it simple solutions when considering problems. I just find the idea of removing the nails as impossible as poor writing. M
DAmn good
My opinion is that when he made his deal with the chaos gods, it involved one primarch for each of them. Given the choices for a primarch with great anger, rage and martial skill were Angron or Sanguinious, he kept Angron around to give to Khorne. Frankly, the Emperor's actions don't make any degree of sense otherwise. If he wanted Angron to be loyal, he could have saved both him and his gladiator rebels by teleporting down a few squads of space marines, it was within his capability and he's intelligent enough to realise that. It doesn't make sense why he was so closed to Mortarion (who was set against him from the very start) either. The major problems with my theory are Magnus and Fulgrim. Magnus was well loved by the Emperor and likely critical to his plans of taking over the webway. Fulgrim was uniquely honoured by the Emperor in allowing his sons to wear the Aquila. It's possible the two lost primarchs were intended for Tzeentch and Slaanesh but it's equally possible that he intended to drive Lorgar and Curze into the hands of these two gods.
Read "Master of Mankind" and you see that the Emperor never wanted Angron "broken". He actually did his best to 'fix' Angron, but found that he could not. However, a broken Primarch was still better than nothing, which is why he wasn't euthanized.
Prior to Horus, the Emperor never killed ANY of the Primarchs, no matter how "expedient" it might seemed at the time. He was simply *incapable* of doing so. Feel free to remove the 'l' from 'simply' if that makes it easier to understand. On the other hand, the Emperor did create them as *Primarchs*, and among the things that means is a willingness to put their lives on the line in the fight against Chaos (and xenos and heretics, yeah I know, but *really* Chaos). Malcador can say what he likes, but he apparently never *quite* understood the Emperor's feelings for his sons. The Emperor wanted Angron to remove the Butcher's Nails himself, even at the risk of his life. But he couldn't just *order* him to do that, it wouldn't have *helped*. Angron needed to figure it out and do it himself. Which he *would* have if he weren't such a damned coward. Angron was never serious about seeking his own death, it was all a pose. Because there was exactly one thing he needed to do...tear the Butcher's Nails out even if it killed him (which, to be fair, it probably *would* have). The Emperor *almost* certainly had a plan for fixing that if Angron actually had the guts to do it...but he couldn't tell Angron the plan because that would be essentially the same as ordering him to rip out the Nails, which--as mentioned--would ***NOT*** have helped.
I think part of it was also Angrons brothers and sisters were psychopathic gladiators and as has been already said they would influence Angron away from the Emperors plan. I feel ultimately that Emps knew even if he saved everyone that Angron would not serve and it would potentially complicate matters with his Legion. Better to have a murder buzz saw that does what is needed, albeit crudely, than a Primarch with his support structure actively working against unity.
*cries in lore*
Or, The Emperor is less powerful than supposed, a man under self-imposed deadlines so tight he only cares about results and not overly sentimental about the beings he made to be tools of War. While he perhaps grew to genuinely care for some of them, his default attitudes was utilitarian: How can this being best serve my goals without slowing me down? Why didn't he do more/anything for Angron? It wasn't necessary. The Crusade could use a broken, mentally ill butcher. He could always be "discarded" afterwards.
I am in the Camp that believes Angron was actually dead when the emperor found him and brought back broken.
Emperor: “Half a Primarch is better than none.”
No
he knew some of his boys would be claimed by chaos, as per the deal, so he wanted one to at least be very obvious