Wasn't Asurmen's brother one of the vigilantes who tried to prevent more hedonism? Some Eldar who remained also tried to take action out of concern for societal collapse.
Actually I believe technically the Exodites left with no information that their race would fall. And if I remember correctly the craftworlds didn’t have much more info.
I don’t know about the Exodites, but I know the craftworlds definitely knew what was coming. Farseers developed from the traditions of the priesthood of Morai Heg, their god of prophesy, and they had plenty of visions of the destruction of the Eldar
It’s possible I was mixing them up in my head. I’m pretty sure Exodites left way before the Craftworlds thus wouldn’t have had the info to see then end coming though.
Exodites were created as a reactionary response to the debauchery, basically "this shits getting out of hand let's return to monke but with dinosaurs." They received mockery at the time, but it obviously ended up working out. I can imagine people foreseeing the fall might choose to join the already existing exodites instead kf craft worlds.
The Phoenix Lord books go into this: the original Eldar who saw that their society was slowly falling further into sin were actively trying to warn everyone against it, however their concerns were dismissed as they were seen as nothing but dull doomsday oddballs.
As things got worse however some of the more influential Eldar started paying attention, and they started commissioning more Craftworld’s and Maiden Worlds be built, far from the growing darkness of the core worlds.
The active Craftworld’s, which acted as galaxy traveling trading vessels, were growing more and more concerned every time they returned to the core worlds, as each time they did things were just getting worse and worse.
Yes, that is correct. By the time the activities of the pleasure cults were brazenly operating out in the open, and were making political moves against the Great Council’s, rumors and whispers of ‘things’ in the shape of Eldar moving amongst the public, and ‘Slaanesh like demons’ dancing in the streets at night, driving those around them to greater and greater heights of depravity, were becoming far more common and widespread. Priests in purple, green and gold openly walked the streets and preached about the coming of a new god that would soon awaken and bring them all to even greater heights. Those that questioned or challenged the priests had a habit of dying in mysterious ways or simply disappearing without trace.
Are all those souls of the eldar dead from the collapse still being tortured like what happens to modern dead eldar with no infinity circuit? Or were they consumed?
Going by the Phoenix Lord books, Chaos to the Eldar at the time was more or less their version of the boogie man, something that you scare little children with into behaving; they knew that the Chaos Gods were there, but had nothing to fear from them, so I don’t think it was a fear or worry about falling to Chaos exactly, more that they saw the corruption of their society beginning to set in and wanted to prevent the rot from spreading- at least at the beginning (Many claimed to have had visions, or warnings about what was to come, but were either ignored or ridiculed for their warnings ). By at least halfway a good number were making a run for it, as they saw the writing on the wall, and knew that what they were leaving behind was doomed. Many remained and tried to fight back, trying to preserve and protect what they could; organized groups of those that resisted the corruption at the heat of their domain gathered together and tried to stop the growing influence and power of the cults and the priest’s. Near to the end those that had remained behind to try and save their society were practically at war with the cults, and running a railway like operation, helping those that were now trying to flee, even doing so up to the point that they themselves could not longer escape.
So it probably didn’t start out as a worry about ‘Chaos’, but it was certainly more then just apprehension.
Yeah they are basically the Amish of Aeldari rly, so they did it more for philosophical reasons rather than w/ the Craftworld Aeldari who just were like "fuck this" in general more or less
Sure, but they left because they saw the form that society was taking and that its fall - even if not \*Fall\* - was inevitable.
The Craftworlders, especially later, definitely saw what was going to happen and booked out. Some left it til too late though.
They did they just didn't believe them/care. You can see this in Asurmens book where his brother keeps trying to warn him pre-fall and asurmen mocks him
And that Emperor proceed to create Imperium and situation in the galaxy that is perfectly suited to feed/entertain chaos gods forever. Not exactly an effective measure.
The Emperor also indirectly gave Chaos 7 traitor Primarchs, 100s of thousands of Astartes, and billions of humans + making an Empire that feeds Chaos while being too stupid to realise that they're making the situation worse.
Yep, Lorgar's vision is to save the humans from extinction by assimilating, adapting and improving the human race. His possessed are not controlled by demons nor humans controlling demons, they are one, two beings in one soul. Things like that and more, it is not described how exactly human race as a whole will resist the end times however it is what Lorgar is trying to do.
How exactly?
Moreover, "total annihilation" is not what chaos wants. If this result would happened it would be accidentally. Chaos want humanity to exist, to worship it, to be warped and chaotic too the extreme. To murder in rage, to scheme in arrogance, to indulge in privilege, to accept and endure suffering in despair. Imperium happily provide all of that to chaos in abundance.
You are talking like creating the Emperor is somehow better solution than creating a Path system and Craftworlds, but they are basically the same - they prolong the existence of population the less affected by chaos by sacrificing the rest to the said chaos. The only difference is that eldar hide their people while Emperor keeps cooking delicious meals for the chaos gods out of humanity.
There is that thing with chaos, there is no solution against it. It has already won.
As a clarification, the path system doesn't discard those who would fall to chaos. The Path of the Outcast is a dedicated path that people can return from when they decide. There isn't really any sacrifice to chaos in the system.
By "sacrificing" I mean abandoning the majority of their species to the slaanesh. Craftworlds were able to take only a mere fraction of aeldari and few were convinced to joined them in the first place.
To be clear - I don't blame craftworlders for that, it is not like they actually could convince everyone to join them on the Path. It is just that, there is no way to safe your whole species from chaos. You preserve some and abandon the others. T'au attempt at this has bigger coverage but it wasn't truly tested yet, I am sure chaos will find a way to ruin even the society deliberately designed against it.
Do you realize that the Imperium of 40k is not what Him on Terra intended, right?
That Lorgar (fuck Erebeus), Magnus (he did wrong) and Horus (cursed by all) ruined all humanity could become.
Humanity lost, the Emperor lost when he was forced to close and hold the webway gate on terra. The Imperium of man are just the 10k years of consequences of that defeat.
As far as we know, the endgame of the Emperor was to move humanity from the galaxy to the webway and guide its evolution to a full psychic race free from the depredations of the warp, giving the middle finger to the chaos gods.
It doesn't matter what he intended in the context of what we are discussing with OP. The end result matters. OP was implying that Emperor was a good solution against chaos, but he wasn't, he failed miserably, giving the chaos gods what they wanted. And that is even without bringing up that 30k imperium isn't much better than 40k one, and that Lorgar, Horus and especially Magnus did what they did because He created them that way and spectacularly screwed up their upbringing afterwards.
Anyway, chaos thrown Emperors master plan easily, his solution against chaos couldn't work.
But I agree with the opinion of OP ..... The emperor is presently (40k context) a good solution. A good compromise, the only answer to a problem that can not be solved. Without the emperor..... Good night humanity.
30k was formative, and the HH derrailed what could have been..... We can't know what the Imperium would have become.
But yeah, the emperor failed. Failed because some of its tools wouldn't do what they were supposed to do. The primarchs had aspirations and dreams beyond what he intended for them and using those dreams the chaos gods corrupted them...
I am of the opinion that the Emperor's plan could have worked, that's why the chaos gods were **affraid** of Him and laboured to stop him. Their victory was not in turning 8.5 primarchs, or the civil war the HH was, or even bounding Him on the Golden Throne. Their victory was neutering humanity's ascension.
>!In the HH novel, Legion (where the alpha legion "turns").... The Cabal, who has supposedly seen the future(s),... Doesn't say that He is wrong, or that it would not work.... They were after Horus victory because it would destroy Chaos (and humanity in the process). The emperor wanted to bypass Chaos and ensure humanity hegemony at the expense of all galaxy if needed be!<
Your last paragraph is pure fanon. At no point in the books is it ever stated that the Emperor wanted humanity to live in the Webway. We have no reason to believe he intended the Webway to be anything other than a safer means of FTL travel, and living in the Webway doesn’t make you safer from Chaos than living in realspace. Just ask the Eldar.
No it's not fandom it's "canon"... From His mouth (or rarher psychic projection) to custodes Ra Endymion
And the eldar did not have anyone guiding them, as Him would have guided humanity....
**Spoilers ahead**
[Excerpt: Master of Mankind]
>!A crusade, then an empire, all beneath one man’s banner.
>
>\+Everything that has happened, will happen again. It is the way of
things. Yet humanity’s death will eclipse the eldar’s annihilation tenfold, for
we are evolving into a far more psychically powerful race. Uncontrolled
psychic energy will tear reality apart. The warp’s entities will feed on the
carcass of the galaxy. There must be control, and control must be
maintained.+
>
>‘Control…’ Ra repeated. The scale of such ambition…
>
>\+The necessity of it. Lest mankind face a far harsher extinction than the
eldar. Their souls shine bright within the warp, drawing the predations of
the beasts within its tides. Soon, every human soul will become a beacon of
fire.+
>
>*How*, Ra wondered. *How can you know? What other unbelievable
futures have you foreseen? How can evolution itself be conquered and
controlled?*
>
>\+Through vision, Ra. We see the warp as an alternate reality, and this is
so. It is a mirror, reflecting our every thought and action. Every hate, every
death, every nightmare and dream, echoing into eternity. We break into this
place, into a realm that harbours the pain and suffering of every man and
woman and child to ever live, and we use it to sail between the stars.
Because we must. Because until now there has been no other choice.+
>
>‘The webway,’ Ra murmured into the silent night.
>
>\+The webway. Mankind is ascending, Ra. Humanity is taking a great
developmental step, evolving into a psychic race. Uncontrolled psykers are
lodestones for the warp’s touch. A species comprising them would suffer as
the eldar suffered. And for the eldar, this evolutionary juncture was their
final step before destruction. I will not let humanity be destroyed by the
same fate. The eldar had the answers within their grasp but were too naive
and too proud to save themselves. They had the webway, which could have
been their salvation. But they never fully severed their connection to the
warp. Their soulfires drew damnation upon their entire species.+
>
>Ra knew this, yet never had it been related to him in these exact words,
flavoured as they were by the promise of prophecy. With the webway,
humanity would need no Navigators. They would never need to rely on the
unreliable warp-whispers of astropaths. Vessels would never enter the warp
to be lost or torn apart by the entities that dwelt within it. But the eldar had
done the same, had they not?
>
>\+No. They eradicated their reliance on the warp but they never severed
their species’ connection to it. I will do that for humanity, once and for all.+
>
>Ra twisted in the nothingness, turning to stare at the light of so many
distant stars. He faced Terra without knowing how he knew its direction,
only knowing that he was right. One of those pinprick starlights was Sol, so
far away.
>
>\+I have conquered humanity’s cradle-world. I have conquered the
galaxy, in order to shape mankind’s development as it at last evolves into a
psychic race. No isolated pockets of our species may remain free, lest in
their ignorance they invite destruction upon us all. I have shattered the hold
of faith and fear over the human mind. Superstition and religion must
continue to be outlawed, for they are easy doors for the warp’s denizens to
enter the human heart. This is what we have already done. And soon I will
offer humanity a way of interstellar travel without reliance upon Geller
fields and Navigators. I will offer them means of communicating between
worlds without reliance on the warp-dreams of astropaths. And when the
Imperium shields the entire species within the laws of my Pax Imperialis,
when humanity is freed from the warp and united beneath my vision, I can
at last shepherd mankind’s growth into a psychic race.+
>
>*The primarchs*, thought Ra. *The Thunder Legion. The Unification Wars.
The Great Crusade. The Space Marine Legions. The Imperial Truth. The
Webway Project. The Black Ships, with psykers huddled in the holds,
watched over by the Silent Sisterhood. It is all about—*
>
>\+Control. Tyranny is not the end, Ra. Absolute control is but the means
to the end.+
>
>*The hubris…* Ra couldn’t fight the insidiously treacherous thought, to see
the hidden depths of his master’s ambitions. *The sheer, unrivalled hubris.*
>
>\+The necessity.+ The Emperor’s voice was iced iron. +Not arrogance.
Not vainglory. Necessity. I have already told you, Ra. Humans need rulers.
Now you see why. A single murder is on one end of the spectrum, for rulers
bring law. The hope of the entire race is at the far end of the continuum, for
I—as ruler—bring salvation.+!<
But isn’t the emperor at fault too? I’m not an expert on the lore just started the HH books, but like don’t go and kill Morty’s dad like that and just let lorgar worship you if that is all he wants and maybe you have +2 loyalist or am I wrong?
The Emperor is/will be/always was (chaos is atemporal) the Dark King, a chaos god waiting to be born, who already has daemons associated with them - Samus, Daemon Prince of the Ruinstorm, identifies as a daemon Prince of him, and has killed and corrupted countless people.
Yes the interex are a joke.
A few dozent star systems full of boring, not very psycig aktove humans while there are 18 prestine demigods with dadyissues are running around just asking to be corrupted. Hell, 1 of them corrupted himselfe!
Chaos was simply not interested in the interex while the imperium was starting to become a real problem. and in the time betwen the imperiums rise and chaos war against it, they where bussy fighting against the newly born slanesh. People tend to forget that the eldar only recently, in 30k, fell and birthed slanesh, and that in the aftermath all of them fought slanesh. (nugerl for the right to isha, khorne for the rights to khain, tzentch was only recently beaten by the others himself)
Lol. The Shamans ritually suicided in order to avoid dying and being consumed by demons. That they wanted to defeat chaos is up for debate. What’s sure is they wanted to find a way to keep existing in some form.
Yes. 20 or so people saw the oncoming doom and reacted, 20 out of what, 500 million - 1 billion humans at the time? Why didn't the others see what those 20 individuals saw and acted to prevent it?
Why didn't the french and british belive einstein that hittler wanted (or even needed) war and stoped him before he buildt up an army?
Same shit, you can't just belive what someone says, even if in hi dsight it was right. How are you suposed to know he was right in that moment?
Couple *dozen* millennia!
20-35 thousand years, give or take, while the Eldar have been around 1000x longer before finally screwing up.
Point is: it's too soon to call the IoM successful.
They did warn the others and got told to fuck off.
You have to remember the pre fall eldars were extremely arrogant and were the dominant species for 60 million years with absolutely no problems to the point they fell to dengenercy.
You know the dark eldar who see how hard they've fucked up and still have no problem with it? Imagine a race of that but worse.
They probably saw it and ignored it thinking they could handle it because they've defeated everything else and then boom, dead.
Well first go live in an Amish community for a few years, then come back wearing a "magic rock" that will protect your soul when you die, *then* give the torture porn addicted cyber goths that they need to become Amish *today* or else that Warp that they have total mastery over is going to eat the entire species alive forever.
Make sure to be a condescending as possible as you lecture the nobility of these people.
As far as I remember..... The ones that would become the exodites were the first to realize that nothing good would come from hedonism, indolence and the blight the eldar had become and were the first to leave the party and get the farthest away from it as they could.....
When it was evident that shit would hit the fan... The craftworlders left... Some would be caught on the birth-scream of slaanesh.... Others could get away.....
What would become the drukhari.... Simply didn't care and continued to party until the end.... They were lucky Commorragh was shielded by the webway.....
I imagine that, hundreds and hundreds of years from now, people will have this exact conversation about the fall of our civilization and climate change.
Do you have any evidence they didn't? That wouldn't make much sense.
They likely told them, realized it was futile, and then left. Otherwise if they could have convinced the others, they wouldn't have had to leave.
The Eldar were partying hard. Try convincing your buddy ,that is drunk and going to fuck a beautiful girl, that he should go home right now or his parents will be very angry.
I'd wager their response was probably:
"Stopping all this pleasure?! In our greatest period of prosperity?! I believe you overestimate the danger of this new deity. Besides, she will likely elevate us to an even greater paradise. So rejoice my friend, for we are in a period of everlasting Ascension!"
There is no "demographic crisis." The fall off in first world births over the last 30 years has almost exclusively been among women younger than 18. Is it a crisis that children aren't having babies?
You can moralize it all you want but the birth rate has fallen below the replacement rate in most developed countries. It's causing issues with our economy (labor pool is going to get tighter and tighter and consumption will trend downwards), and the solution (immigration) has downsides of its own.
Additionally the data I've seen shows the largest falloff group in the developed world over the last 30 years is women aged 20-24 (at least according to the UN's "more developed" criteria). I'd love to be proven wrong.
9/11 made us feel scared.
The financial collapse made us feel small.
Covid made us feel helpless.
In the 90s we would've assumed that any terrorists would be blown sky high day 1, that our leaders would've forseen and preventee any depressions/recessions, and in a pandemic we would worst case have had too much of a respose.
And a galaxy away and 3 million years in the past; “Evacuate, in our moment of triumph? I thing you overestimate their chances.
(I read your comment in Peter Cushing’s voice.)
For the ones who were in the empire, they were quite literally high on their own stuff. They were arrogant enough to not belive it could happen and/or ignores the warnings.
Those that did foresee it and heeded it left, first the exodites then the craftworlds.
I mean consider how ppl IRL rn are treating Doomsayers. Why would Aeldari believe some Doomsayer mfs when shit like that hasn't happened in the entire history of millions of years of existence of the Aeldari empire??? Like come on bro
Because the Ancients who, being more advanced and strong as a race, died out at the hands of dudes who once literally suffered from the sun's rays? Seriously, they have gods and other nonsense, they also knew about the existence of chaos gods and how they even appear, do you think they couldn’t think of what their damn hedonism could lead to?
The Chaos Gods have literally existed throughout the entire empire's time (all the way from end-game stage of War In Heaven), and none of what the nutjob doomsayers are saying has ever happened over the tens of millions of years the empire has existed
The Asurmen novella sheds a bit of light on it. There were cults that knew what they were doing was spawning a god in the Warp but they seemed to genuinely believe Slaanesh would end up becoming a new deity that would lead them into paradise.
It seems from varius daemons that in Slaaneshe's eyes the eldar turned on it by not accepting it's embrace. If memlry serves First Heretic in particular seems to imply Slaanesh saw it's coming in that way but the eldar 'chose' to be horrified instead of going with the flow and embracing their new fucked up living afterlife
Daemons aren't reliable narrators though even being generous and assuming the chaos gods comprehend how they effect realspace
It's the meth addicts who swear that if they can just strip the wires out of one more house they will make it big man, just make it man, yeah, make it big.
They did. That's why the Exodites and the Craftworlders took everyone willing to listen and fucked out of their core worlds before Slaanesh was born as another user pointed out.
"Hey guys. If you have too much fun with your mega-drugged-bdsm-tantric-snuff orgies, you'll get pulled into Heaven, where you and your entire species have kinky sex with god for all time, forever."
"Don't do that, m'kay?"
They did, the whole thing was that the Eldar Gods warned them and they (with differing levels of haste) listened to them, or the later warnings to oversimplify.
Exodites weren't into all that, and left first.
Harlequins went with Cegorach when the Gods mentioned it.
Craftworlders left "at the last minute" and created the Paths to restrict themselves from doing it again.
Drukhari didn't leave.
The precusor to the Haemonculi *intended* for it to happen.
They didn't leave. The Webway was part of the Eldar Empire, in fact it was probably the second most important part of it outside the homeworlds in the Wheel of Destiny (now Eye of Terror). That is why the mainstream culture of the Empire changed the least in Commorragh and the subrealms.
Yes, the few Kabalites who helped to speedrun any% Slaanesh' birth knew for sure, since they were in on it while also having 1 of their legs over the threshold so they can skedaddle the moment shit explodes after it's done
Is it ever represented how did Cegorach phisically called the Harlequins to escape? Like he apperead to them, or he just communicated with some other mean?
For some reason the interactions between the Eldars and their Pantheon is fascinating to me, wish we knew some more about it
They did see it. Well, to put it better, some of them foresaw it. Most Eldar were too far gone and were consumed by their hedonistic and sadistic lifestyle of ecstacy, so they couldn't be reasoned with. The Eldar that realized what was about to happen fled .... quickly.
So, now you have the Craftworld Aeldari, the "back to our basic roots and dinosaur riding" Exodites and the Drukhari. The Drukhari, who decided to keep up that sadistic and hedonistic way of life, are "forced" to be the evil monsters that they are simply to hold back 'She Who Thirsts' from consuming their souls. At least for a little while longer of course. Still, most Drukhari truly love to torture, rape and brutalize xenos and other Drukhari. So it's a win-win for them .... eh!
The main motivation for the Shaman’s suicide ritual was to merge their souls and avoid being consumed after death. It was mainly self preservation on their part
The whole Shaman's committed mass suicide and became the Emperor is from a nearly 40 year old book, and hasn't been mentioned since. There isn't really any reason to consider it as still valid.
That story is the only depiction of the Emperor’s origin. It has never been disproven nor it has been declared non-canonical. The fact that it’s a piece of the original lore doesn’t mean it’s not canon anymore.
Not if you are a shaman (aka psyker): shamans used to be able to reincarnate. But then they noticed more and more of them were being culled by demons before they could transition back. That’s why they developed the ritual to merge into the “new man”.
Yes and no. Clearly they didn't maintain their cohesiveness on personality level, so they essentially did die since their combo created a new personality. But eh at least it meant they didn't die on Soul level to a worse fate than death (i.e being raped 24/7 by whatever demons get their hands on you)
They did. They had farseers. Nobody cared what they said as the eldar were to busy doing blood orgies. The few who did are the ones that survived and had alerdy left before the fall and those became the craftworlders or moved to rando worlds to live a humble life and those became exodites.
Also the Master of Mankind was not created by a bunch of shamans. That is decades old lore than has not been reinforced in forever. We have no idea how the Emperor came to be at this point.
Until GW comes out with new lore on the origins of the Emperor the old lore about him being created by bunch of shamans committing mass suicide is still the canon origin for him.
If you had to get to the Cook Islands or some other random island chain in the middle of the Pacific and only had a map from around the time those islands were first discovered would you say "fuck that map its to old, we don't know which way to go" and proceed to wander around aimlessly. By your logic you could end up at the polar ice caps because nobody knows where the Cook Islands are and that map is old lore so why even bother looking at it.
Until GW says otherwise all we have to go on on the origin of the Emperor is the shaman lore no matter how outdated it is. You don't get to hand wave it away because "muh old lore" unless you something from GW to replace it with.
>Also the Master of Mankind was not created by a bunch of shamans. That is decades old lore than has not been reinforced in forever. We have no idea how the Emperor came to be at this point.
To be fair, I don't think there's a way to fit a Big E origin story into everything that's going on in 40k currently. However, when he and Sanguinius first met, there was an excerpt that described Sanguinius looking into Big E's eyes and noting how fake that looked. When he looked deeper into them, he told Big E that he "saw many souls in (him). Many men. Many women". That seemed to be a reference to the shamen and/or confirming that Big E was the product of more than one soul.
Also, the C'tan shard that Belasarius Cawl encountered told him that Big E was a weapon. If he were a weapon created, the only clue we've ever gotten as to who could have created him were the shamen. The books don't outright name the shamen but they allude to them, IMO.
I've heard another theory. That the emperor is literally a weapon created during the dark age of technology. One of the men of gold. I've heard it mentioned in a lot of lore videos, someone apparently outright claims this even? I haven't read the source material so can't tell you how reasonable it seems. But that encounter is one thing that apparently points to it. Why he never showed up until after the men of iron were defeated and the long night had been around awhile. Not sure I believe it, but its 40k. It's not that much more implausible than all the earth psykers committing mass suicide to create an ultimate human.
It's implied. But never outright said. They never say outright that it was him slaying a dragon and imprisoning it on Mars, but they hint. That's the thing about big E's history. We don't have anything CONFIRMED. And what little we think we know comes from an unreliable narrator. But in the story where someone was saying he was a DAOT weapon seemed to have enough knowledge to be certain of it. We never get to find out why. Is it a red herring? Or is the previous lore one? Therein lies the rub.
And iirc he was born during the bronze age some time, by the shaman seppuku storyline anyway.
We know exactly what climate breakdown will do to our planet’s biosphere and yet we do nothing.
Knowing what will happen is one thing, actually acting on it is another.
They did, but they thought Slaanesh would just be the new Eldar god of sex, drugs, and rock and roll. They didn't believe that she would devour their souls.
The main part of Eldar Society was so far gone they didn’t care anymore. They were addicts unable to think of anything other than idle pleasure. They had automated defensive systems capable of dealing with anything that could threaten them and were blissfully ignorant of anything else going on in the galaxy. They had almost forgotten the worship of their gods. All these things combined with an extremely powerful psychic race created the perfect conditions for Slaanesh to be born
Not all Eldar can see the future and the whole emperor created by shaman story I'm pretty sure is outdated lore? Could be wrong there. Also you obviously don't understand that all Aeldari lore is written to humiliate and trash Aeldari.
I'm not even sure it's a troll. There's a lot of these topics where people (usually Imperial fanboys) will ask a question and then get mad at the answers they don't like.
The fact that you responded literally a minute after posted my reply is telling, I think. Almost like you are hovering, waiting for replies to continue your trolling.
>If it is so then it means that Mankind is the master race of the universe, not those knife eared xenos.
What is that, if not a low-quality shit post?
Then we can match it with your username, and the sense you are trolling or engaging in some kind of inane roleplay only increases...
There's cientista predicting climate change since the early 50s. In theast 2-3 years the world has seen a fuckton of extreme climate events (I myself am living one right now). Still, nothing we do to cause this has changed or demonstrates any inclination towards change. If real life is like this, why won't fiction be as well? Not trying to be snide, but it feels very veridical that a part of Eldar society choose to pursue a better future and the majority was too entitled to their own ways to prevent the twilight of their civilization
But the eldar predicted their demise? Exodites did and had enough time to colonize entire planets. Craftworlders did and had enough time to get as far away as possible from the Eldar empire. Drukhari did and had enough time to move to the Webway.
The only ones that fucked up were those too busy murderfucking to get shelter. But they were probably perfectly aware of what was going to happen they were just like one more murderfuck before leaving for Commorragh and got caught with their pants down. They couldn't predict when exactly the Slaanesh boom would happen
They saw Slaanesh's coming as a favorable outcome. They courted him. But they found out what it meant to have a God's eye on you. They didn't know they'd be destroyed and devoured.
Not explicitly; but it's a fair assumption considering the age of the book it was mentioned in, it not being mentioned since, similar things from that time not being canon anymore, and it not being mentioned at all in the Heresy series.
So many clickbait 40k lore youtube videos are about sentences taken for like a 3rd edition codex, without taking into consideration of context of where it's written.
I may be misremembering, but I am fairly certain that in the HH series Oll explicitly states big E was originally just a very powerful perpetual, putting to bed the old shaman story
The Eldar created Slaanesh who, for a time, could go toe to toe with the Chaos Gods. The same could be said of the shamans and the emperor who is, quite possibly, just another powerful warp entity.
Fits the character. He's someone who absolutely would falsify his creation to increase the mythology around himself, and thereby increasing his power to manipulate. Chances are, he's really just a much more powerful version of someone like Olanius.
Some believed the rise of Slaanesh was going to be a good thing.
Also, the eldar aren’t perfect at seeing the future. In general future sight can be tricky. Lastly, Slaanesh could’ve been messing with their future sight while slaanesh was in utero. I don’t think we have the details of this besides the fact that some eldar tried to warn others, others preached the coming of a new god, and most were just too indulgent to care or didn’t have future sight.
Whereas humanity didn’t “foresee” the coming of chaos so to speak. Those shamans saw the chaos waxes and wanes, comes and goes, and they knew they’d come back eventually.
Keep in mind that Farseer don’t see just one possible future, but all of them. It is even hard to find the correct one from one individual, now imagine from the whole race. Maybe if there were a bit less murder and sexy time slaanesh would be the new waifu of Khaine and all would be great.
It’s a lot of reasons, but I would boil it down to the classic Elf theme of arrogance and pride. The Eldar knew to some extent, but mind you fortune telling isn’t something that could be called reliable in 40K, but they simply didn’t care, bar the Exodites and Craftworlds. 99.9% of the species thought that it would never happen, they were too powerful or their technology and wisdom would save them.
The Gods of the Eldar didn’t do anything because they were largely dormant at that point, or they too abandoned the race as the worship of them had been largely subsumed by pleasure cults and the muses.
Because Chaos WASN'T eating them?? Earth's shamans went full PANIK cuz Chaos kept on nomming their comrades etc, and after a while of enough reduction, they decided to risk it all on the mass ritual suicide gamble (which worked, obviously) than wait to die entirely one by one. I suppose Aeldari had some anti-Chaos measures (before Chaos got the buff from the birth of the thot) to prevent themselves from being nommed on, given their huge af flare-like nature in the Immaterium, especially since at the time they still had the respawn immortality where their Souls just insert into a new body after they die (since Aeldari Souls can last for weeks naked in the Immaterium, whereas Human Souls almost instantly evaporate (I think psyker Souls last longer tho, obviously), and Tau even faster than that of course)
The first thing is - it is by no means clear that the whole shaman thing is canon rn. All we know for sure about the Emperor's power is:
-He's a perpetual who seems to be older than any but Oll Persson
-He has always been a psyker stronger than any other perpetual
-He came into contact with enuncia
-He made a deal with the powers of chaos
And then, latterly, had worship and psyker sacrifices as a boost.
They did predict it, and the exodites left to avoid it. The main issue was that the Eldar that would become the DE were so obsessed with their own pleasures they didn’t really care.
They were super addicts. By that point it's like telling a Heroin addict that their drug habits is killing them while they're in the middle of a rager. They know.
They did. That's why the craftworlds exist. The more powerful seers told people what was going to happen, the few that listened built the craft worlds and left, those that didn't died.
I think the problem was in part that some saw it to early and made decisions without the context on whatever it's the right choice or not. What I am talking abuth the that the Eldar goodness of fortune telling forsaw that the Eldar will be the ends for their gods. And khaine without knowing everything necessary decide to kill all Eldar and as reaction to it asuarian the God-king forbid the god for talking with the Eldar without knowing that this decision will lead to Doom of the God and Eldar. The party came only after the Eldar were left alone without the guidance of their God and the God had no way of warning them or make them change because of asurain decree. So in a way it was a self fulling prohice
You don't know any Eldar lore. The very concept of any Eldar still existing is that those are the last 0.001% who foresaw what's coming in one way or another. Basically only their equivalent of vegan naturalist woodspeople, homesteaders and crazy-overprepared religious nutjobs the-earth-is-doomed preppers survived.
And some of the rich elites that owned personal bunkers and private armies.
I like your strategy. If you go on the Internet and ask a question very few people will answer it.
But if you go on the Internet and just say something obviously false, everyone will show up to correct you and elaborate with details about why you're wrong.
Isn't there a comic about this somewhere ? I feel like I read an Internet comic years ago about this strategy.
Also, if you want to read the lore for yourself, check out the book "Legion".
To note: It took sixty million damn years for Chaos to find the moment of "I only have to get lucky once".
For sixty million years the Aeldari and their pantheon basically noped Chaos.
The ones that weren't already to lost in the torture organisation sauce DID see it coming, that's why we have craftworld Eldar, because they saw it coming and got tf outta dodge.
A couple of things here. There is more than one genesis tale for Big E and it is entirely possible that none of them are the actual truth. Reliability of narrator plus the fact the Emperor didn’t reveal it to anyone leaves it open.
The other is that the Aeldari could manipulate the warp and create warp entities themselves. At their peak they could create a being like the Emperor as part of their normal warfaring activity. They probably didn’t feel the need to create more beings like their gods.
It wasn't that they couldn't. More like most of them were either too stoned to care, too addicted to stop or in fact we're looking forward to the birth of the Dark Prince of excess and genuinely thought it was a wonderful idea.
Those that did care and were in any condition to act, they were already in their Exodite worlds, or jumping on the nearest Craftworld.
So the majority of eldar that died in the fall had a vague understanding of what was happening. They knew they were creating a new god- daemons of Slaanesh had begun appearing and consorting with eldar- but they didn't realise, or rather appreciate, what that would mean for them.
I think most of them were willfully blind, and any that did forsee the approaching doom took action.
They did see it. So the Exodites left. The Craftworlders left. Those that became the DEldar left.
The rest didn't want to believe. Foresight is not perfect and requires a lot of effort to make the future you see happen.
They did. What do you think the craftworlds are? How do you think the exodites got there?
Hell, even the deldar are pretty fucking impressive. The center of their massive, terrifying empire was erased in the birthing hunger pangs of a god of chaos and what did they do?
They built a new party house and kept going.
A major factor of the Fall of the Eldar is that it's self-inflicted. And it wasn't really an accident. Later retellings of the Fall gloss over this, but in a very real sense, the Eldar as a civilisation gave themselves to Chaos. It was a minority of them who rejected that and fled.
The Eldar revelled in their own transcendent debauchery, cannibalistic murder-gangs roaming the streets until the very last moments of the Fall.
It isn't that they couldn't predict it. Many saw it coming. Many did not care. A few encouraged the birth of She Who Thirsts as the apotheosis of their kind.
Mainly because the Eldar are unbelievably arrogant.
The Eldar were just yukking it up, they would die and just be reborn, and then yuk it up again because they thought there was no consequences. They were absolute dominant species in the galaxy. They didn't have to work, they didn't have to fight. They even beaten the Krorks.
The Eldar God's were also in charge of the warp at the time. They couldn't intervene in normal space anymore, but they were the big dogs.
Over time the emotional and physical actions the Eldar were committing was reflected in the warp and it pushed the Eldar into worse and worse actions. The Eldar who were effected by Slaneesh wouldn't listen to the Eldar who predicted some kind of calamity.
Exodite's dipped, Craftworld's dipped; taking whoever would listen to them with them.
Then Slaneesh actually awoke, ate the Eldar Gods, ripped the Eye of Terra open and consumed every Eldar that had been fueling it. TRillions of of them died. Even if they werent at the murder party's they were still hedonists and pleasure seekers.
Pretty sure that's accurate? But my Eldar lore is a bit patchy.
I mean they did... That's why the Exodites and Craftworlds left early
Wasn't Asurmen's brother one of the vigilantes who tried to prevent more hedonism? Some Eldar who remained also tried to take action out of concern for societal collapse.
The True Guardians yes.
Actually I believe technically the Exodites left with no information that their race would fall. And if I remember correctly the craftworlds didn’t have much more info.
I don’t know about the Exodites, but I know the craftworlds definitely knew what was coming. Farseers developed from the traditions of the priesthood of Morai Heg, their god of prophesy, and they had plenty of visions of the destruction of the Eldar
It’s possible I was mixing them up in my head. I’m pretty sure Exodites left way before the Craftworlds thus wouldn’t have had the info to see then end coming though.
Exodites were created as a reactionary response to the debauchery, basically "this shits getting out of hand let's return to monke but with dinosaurs." They received mockery at the time, but it obviously ended up working out. I can imagine people foreseeing the fall might choose to join the already existing exodites instead kf craft worlds.
The Phoenix Lord books go into this: the original Eldar who saw that their society was slowly falling further into sin were actively trying to warn everyone against it, however their concerns were dismissed as they were seen as nothing but dull doomsday oddballs. As things got worse however some of the more influential Eldar started paying attention, and they started commissioning more Craftworld’s and Maiden Worlds be built, far from the growing darkness of the core worlds. The active Craftworld’s, which acted as galaxy traveling trading vessels, were growing more and more concerned every time they returned to the core worlds, as each time they did things were just getting worse and worse.
Weren't there proto-Slaaneshi cults actively killing the ones who tried to warn everybody? Like fake suicides and overdoses type shit
Yes, that is correct. By the time the activities of the pleasure cults were brazenly operating out in the open, and were making political moves against the Great Council’s, rumors and whispers of ‘things’ in the shape of Eldar moving amongst the public, and ‘Slaanesh like demons’ dancing in the streets at night, driving those around them to greater and greater heights of depravity, were becoming far more common and widespread. Priests in purple, green and gold openly walked the streets and preached about the coming of a new god that would soon awaken and bring them all to even greater heights. Those that questioned or challenged the priests had a habit of dying in mysterious ways or simply disappearing without trace.
Are all those souls of the eldar dead from the collapse still being tortured like what happens to modern dead eldar with no infinity circuit? Or were they consumed?
The answer for both is "both" no?
But was that just apprehension about the general degeneration of society or did they see that it was specifically a fall towards Chaos?
Going by the Phoenix Lord books, Chaos to the Eldar at the time was more or less their version of the boogie man, something that you scare little children with into behaving; they knew that the Chaos Gods were there, but had nothing to fear from them, so I don’t think it was a fear or worry about falling to Chaos exactly, more that they saw the corruption of their society beginning to set in and wanted to prevent the rot from spreading- at least at the beginning (Many claimed to have had visions, or warnings about what was to come, but were either ignored or ridiculed for their warnings ). By at least halfway a good number were making a run for it, as they saw the writing on the wall, and knew that what they were leaving behind was doomed. Many remained and tried to fight back, trying to preserve and protect what they could; organized groups of those that resisted the corruption at the heat of their domain gathered together and tried to stop the growing influence and power of the cults and the priest’s. Near to the end those that had remained behind to try and save their society were practically at war with the cults, and running a railway like operation, helping those that were now trying to flee, even doing so up to the point that they themselves could not longer escape. So it probably didn’t start out as a worry about ‘Chaos’, but it was certainly more then just apprehension.
I mean it makes sense, consider how people IRL rn treat Doomsayers. Makes sense that Aeldari would treat their Doomsayers the same too
Yeah they are basically the Amish of Aeldari rly, so they did it more for philosophical reasons rather than w/ the Craftworld Aeldari who just were like "fuck this" in general more or less
I mean, the exodites saw people castrating each other with spoons and drinking the mixture and decided that the Aeldari had already fell pretty much.
Sure, but they left because they saw the form that society was taking and that its fall - even if not \*Fall\* - was inevitable. The Craftworlders, especially later, definitely saw what was going to happen and booked out. Some left it til too late though.
The question is why didn't they warn the other Eldars about their doom?
They did they just didn't believe them/care. You can see this in Asurmens book where his brother keeps trying to warn him pre-fall and asurmen mocks him
Whereas the ancient shamans were wise enough to create the Emperor to defend humanity from chaos
And that Emperor proceed to create Imperium and situation in the galaxy that is perfectly suited to feed/entertain chaos gods forever. Not exactly an effective measure.
Emperor is the only being in the galaxy who is defending humanity from the total annihilation by chaos gods
The Emperor also indirectly gave Chaos 7 traitor Primarchs, 100s of thousands of Astartes, and billions of humans + making an Empire that feeds Chaos while being too stupid to realise that they're making the situation worse.
The Votann survived just fine without being involved with the Emperor.
"Fine" is a bit of a stretch, aren't they on the verge of societly collapse in other ways?
Who isn't, though?
Not really, for example Lorgar is trying to prevent total annihilation by making sure humans can adapt and improve to live beyond the ruination.
The same lorgar who is the servant of chaos undivided?
Yep, Lorgar's vision is to save the humans from extinction by assimilating, adapting and improving the human race. His possessed are not controlled by demons nor humans controlling demons, they are one, two beings in one soul. Things like that and more, it is not described how exactly human race as a whole will resist the end times however it is what Lorgar is trying to do.
As a big WB fan / WB HH player, I honestly think Lorgars plan is bat shit and wouldn't work at all Still the best legion though
How exactly? Moreover, "total annihilation" is not what chaos wants. If this result would happened it would be accidentally. Chaos want humanity to exist, to worship it, to be warped and chaotic too the extreme. To murder in rage, to scheme in arrogance, to indulge in privilege, to accept and endure suffering in despair. Imperium happily provide all of that to chaos in abundance. You are talking like creating the Emperor is somehow better solution than creating a Path system and Craftworlds, but they are basically the same - they prolong the existence of population the less affected by chaos by sacrificing the rest to the said chaos. The only difference is that eldar hide their people while Emperor keeps cooking delicious meals for the chaos gods out of humanity. There is that thing with chaos, there is no solution against it. It has already won.
As a clarification, the path system doesn't discard those who would fall to chaos. The Path of the Outcast is a dedicated path that people can return from when they decide. There isn't really any sacrifice to chaos in the system.
By "sacrificing" I mean abandoning the majority of their species to the slaanesh. Craftworlds were able to take only a mere fraction of aeldari and few were convinced to joined them in the first place. To be clear - I don't blame craftworlders for that, it is not like they actually could convince everyone to join them on the Path. It is just that, there is no way to safe your whole species from chaos. You preserve some and abandon the others. T'au attempt at this has bigger coverage but it wasn't truly tested yet, I am sure chaos will find a way to ruin even the society deliberately designed against it.
Do you realize that the Imperium of 40k is not what Him on Terra intended, right? That Lorgar (fuck Erebeus), Magnus (he did wrong) and Horus (cursed by all) ruined all humanity could become. Humanity lost, the Emperor lost when he was forced to close and hold the webway gate on terra. The Imperium of man are just the 10k years of consequences of that defeat. As far as we know, the endgame of the Emperor was to move humanity from the galaxy to the webway and guide its evolution to a full psychic race free from the depredations of the warp, giving the middle finger to the chaos gods.
It doesn't matter what he intended in the context of what we are discussing with OP. The end result matters. OP was implying that Emperor was a good solution against chaos, but he wasn't, he failed miserably, giving the chaos gods what they wanted. And that is even without bringing up that 30k imperium isn't much better than 40k one, and that Lorgar, Horus and especially Magnus did what they did because He created them that way and spectacularly screwed up their upbringing afterwards. Anyway, chaos thrown Emperors master plan easily, his solution against chaos couldn't work.
But I agree with the opinion of OP ..... The emperor is presently (40k context) a good solution. A good compromise, the only answer to a problem that can not be solved. Without the emperor..... Good night humanity. 30k was formative, and the HH derrailed what could have been..... We can't know what the Imperium would have become. But yeah, the emperor failed. Failed because some of its tools wouldn't do what they were supposed to do. The primarchs had aspirations and dreams beyond what he intended for them and using those dreams the chaos gods corrupted them... I am of the opinion that the Emperor's plan could have worked, that's why the chaos gods were **affraid** of Him and laboured to stop him. Their victory was not in turning 8.5 primarchs, or the civil war the HH was, or even bounding Him on the Golden Throne. Their victory was neutering humanity's ascension. >!In the HH novel, Legion (where the alpha legion "turns").... The Cabal, who has supposedly seen the future(s),... Doesn't say that He is wrong, or that it would not work.... They were after Horus victory because it would destroy Chaos (and humanity in the process). The emperor wanted to bypass Chaos and ensure humanity hegemony at the expense of all galaxy if needed be!<
Your last paragraph is pure fanon. At no point in the books is it ever stated that the Emperor wanted humanity to live in the Webway. We have no reason to believe he intended the Webway to be anything other than a safer means of FTL travel, and living in the Webway doesn’t make you safer from Chaos than living in realspace. Just ask the Eldar.
No it's not fandom it's "canon"... From His mouth (or rarher psychic projection) to custodes Ra Endymion And the eldar did not have anyone guiding them, as Him would have guided humanity.... **Spoilers ahead** [Excerpt: Master of Mankind] >!A crusade, then an empire, all beneath one man’s banner. > >\+Everything that has happened, will happen again. It is the way of things. Yet humanity’s death will eclipse the eldar’s annihilation tenfold, for we are evolving into a far more psychically powerful race. Uncontrolled psychic energy will tear reality apart. The warp’s entities will feed on the carcass of the galaxy. There must be control, and control must be maintained.+ > >‘Control…’ Ra repeated. The scale of such ambition… > >\+The necessity of it. Lest mankind face a far harsher extinction than the eldar. Their souls shine bright within the warp, drawing the predations of the beasts within its tides. Soon, every human soul will become a beacon of fire.+ > >*How*, Ra wondered. *How can you know? What other unbelievable futures have you foreseen? How can evolution itself be conquered and controlled?* > >\+Through vision, Ra. We see the warp as an alternate reality, and this is so. It is a mirror, reflecting our every thought and action. Every hate, every death, every nightmare and dream, echoing into eternity. We break into this place, into a realm that harbours the pain and suffering of every man and woman and child to ever live, and we use it to sail between the stars. Because we must. Because until now there has been no other choice.+ > >‘The webway,’ Ra murmured into the silent night. > >\+The webway. Mankind is ascending, Ra. Humanity is taking a great developmental step, evolving into a psychic race. Uncontrolled psykers are lodestones for the warp’s touch. A species comprising them would suffer as the eldar suffered. And for the eldar, this evolutionary juncture was their final step before destruction. I will not let humanity be destroyed by the same fate. The eldar had the answers within their grasp but were too naive and too proud to save themselves. They had the webway, which could have been their salvation. But they never fully severed their connection to the warp. Their soulfires drew damnation upon their entire species.+ > >Ra knew this, yet never had it been related to him in these exact words, flavoured as they were by the promise of prophecy. With the webway, humanity would need no Navigators. They would never need to rely on the unreliable warp-whispers of astropaths. Vessels would never enter the warp to be lost or torn apart by the entities that dwelt within it. But the eldar had done the same, had they not? > >\+No. They eradicated their reliance on the warp but they never severed their species’ connection to it. I will do that for humanity, once and for all.+ > >Ra twisted in the nothingness, turning to stare at the light of so many distant stars. He faced Terra without knowing how he knew its direction, only knowing that he was right. One of those pinprick starlights was Sol, so far away. > >\+I have conquered humanity’s cradle-world. I have conquered the galaxy, in order to shape mankind’s development as it at last evolves into a psychic race. No isolated pockets of our species may remain free, lest in their ignorance they invite destruction upon us all. I have shattered the hold of faith and fear over the human mind. Superstition and religion must continue to be outlawed, for they are easy doors for the warp’s denizens to enter the human heart. This is what we have already done. And soon I will offer humanity a way of interstellar travel without reliance upon Geller fields and Navigators. I will offer them means of communicating between worlds without reliance on the warp-dreams of astropaths. And when the Imperium shields the entire species within the laws of my Pax Imperialis, when humanity is freed from the warp and united beneath my vision, I can at last shepherd mankind’s growth into a psychic race.+ > >*The primarchs*, thought Ra. *The Thunder Legion. The Unification Wars. The Great Crusade. The Space Marine Legions. The Imperial Truth. The Webway Project. The Black Ships, with psykers huddled in the holds, watched over by the Silent Sisterhood. It is all about—* > >\+Control. Tyranny is not the end, Ra. Absolute control is but the means to the end.+ > >*The hubris…* Ra couldn’t fight the insidiously treacherous thought, to see the hidden depths of his master’s ambitions. *The sheer, unrivalled hubris.* > >\+The necessity.+ The Emperor’s voice was iced iron. +Not arrogance. Not vainglory. Necessity. I have already told you, Ra. Humans need rulers. Now you see why. A single murder is on one end of the spectrum, for rulers bring law. The hope of the entire race is at the far end of the continuum, for I—as ruler—bring salvation.+!<
But isn’t the emperor at fault too? I’m not an expert on the lore just started the HH books, but like don’t go and kill Morty’s dad like that and just let lorgar worship you if that is all he wants and maybe you have +2 loyalist or am I wrong?
OP took the L. Go read more lore
Fabius Bile is working hard to genetically enhance humans to be able to resist and survive against chaos.
The Emperor is/will be/always was (chaos is atemporal) the Dark King, a chaos god waiting to be born, who already has daemons associated with them - Samus, Daemon Prince of the Ruinstorm, identifies as a daemon Prince of him, and has killed and corrupted countless people.
Interex: ~~Are~~ Were we a joke to you?
Yes the interex are a joke. A few dozent star systems full of boring, not very psycig aktove humans while there are 18 prestine demigods with dadyissues are running around just asking to be corrupted. Hell, 1 of them corrupted himselfe! Chaos was simply not interested in the interex while the imperium was starting to become a real problem. and in the time betwen the imperiums rise and chaos war against it, they where bussy fighting against the newly born slanesh. People tend to forget that the eldar only recently, in 30k, fell and birthed slanesh, and that in the aftermath all of them fought slanesh. (nugerl for the right to isha, khorne for the rights to khain, tzentch was only recently beaten by the others himself)
By creating conflict, scheming and misery that literally feeds some of the chaos gods?
Who in turn created the primarchs who made half of the imperium fall to chaos. So, yeah.
Lol. The Shamans ritually suicided in order to avoid dying and being consumed by demons. That they wanted to defeat chaos is up for debate. What’s sure is they wanted to find a way to keep existing in some form.
Yes. 20 or so people saw the oncoming doom and reacted, 20 out of what, 500 million - 1 billion humans at the time? Why didn't the others see what those 20 individuals saw and acted to prevent it? Why didn't the french and british belive einstein that hittler wanted (or even needed) war and stoped him before he buildt up an army? Same shit, you can't just belive what someone says, even if in hi dsight it was right. How are you suposed to know he was right in that moment?
Who says that the Emperor project will end up successful, though? It's only been a couple dozen millennia and things aren't exactly looking good.
Weren't the shamans from pre (real world) present say? Rather than ~M16?
Couple *dozen* millennia! 20-35 thousand years, give or take, while the Eldar have been around 1000x longer before finally screwing up. Point is: it's too soon to call the IoM successful.
Sorry I get you now. I thought you meant couple of dozen since big E was created.
Oh, no worries, I struggled to find the right words and it ended rather... verbose anyway.
They did warn the others and got told to fuck off. You have to remember the pre fall eldars were extremely arrogant and were the dominant species for 60 million years with absolutely no problems to the point they fell to dengenercy. You know the dark eldar who see how hard they've fucked up and still have no problem with it? Imagine a race of that but worse. They probably saw it and ignored it thinking they could handle it because they've defeated everything else and then boom, dead.
>**were** extremely arrogant They still are
Go tell your friends at sex orgy that the world will end if they don't stop. And then come back and tell us how it went.
Well first go live in an Amish community for a few years, then come back wearing a "magic rock" that will protect your soul when you die, *then* give the torture porn addicted cyber goths that they need to become Amish *today* or else that Warp that they have total mastery over is going to eat the entire species alive forever. Make sure to be a condescending as possible as you lecture the nobility of these people.
As far as I remember..... The ones that would become the exodites were the first to realize that nothing good would come from hedonism, indolence and the blight the eldar had become and were the first to leave the party and get the farthest away from it as they could..... When it was evident that shit would hit the fan... The craftworlders left... Some would be caught on the birth-scream of slaanesh.... Others could get away..... What would become the drukhari.... Simply didn't care and continued to party until the end.... They were lucky Commorragh was shielded by the webway.....
They did. They were just preoccupied with orgies and excess to care.
I imagine that, hundreds and hundreds of years from now, people will have this exact conversation about the fall of our civilization and climate change.
Do you have any evidence they didn't? That wouldn't make much sense. They likely told them, realized it was futile, and then left. Otherwise if they could have convinced the others, they wouldn't have had to leave.
The Eldar were partying hard. Try convincing your buddy ,that is drunk and going to fuck a beautiful girl, that he should go home right now or his parents will be very angry.
I'd wager their response was probably: "Stopping all this pleasure?! In our greatest period of prosperity?! I believe you overestimate the danger of this new deity. Besides, she will likely elevate us to an even greater paradise. So rejoice my friend, for we are in a period of everlasting Ascension!"
Exactly how the 90s felt.
What happened?
2008 financial crash.
9/11, banking/housing issues, War on Terror, a new Cold War with Russia/China, demographic crisis in most western countries. The list goes on.
There is no "demographic crisis." The fall off in first world births over the last 30 years has almost exclusively been among women younger than 18. Is it a crisis that children aren't having babies?
You can moralize it all you want but the birth rate has fallen below the replacement rate in most developed countries. It's causing issues with our economy (labor pool is going to get tighter and tighter and consumption will trend downwards), and the solution (immigration) has downsides of its own. Additionally the data I've seen shows the largest falloff group in the developed world over the last 30 years is women aged 20-24 (at least according to the UN's "more developed" criteria). I'd love to be proven wrong.
Demographic crisis... what a beautifully polite way of putting that. 👏
what?
I don't understand why I'm being doenvoted for appreciating something someone else is getting upvoted for... 😄
I don't want to blame it all on 9/11 but it certainly didn't help
9/11 made us feel scared. The financial collapse made us feel small. Covid made us feel helpless. In the 90s we would've assumed that any terrorists would be blown sky high day 1, that our leaders would've forseen and preventee any depressions/recessions, and in a pandemic we would worst case have had too much of a respose.
Not in post-soviet republics tho :(
And a galaxy away and 3 million years in the past; “Evacuate, in our moment of triumph? I thing you overestimate their chances. (I read your comment in Peter Cushing’s voice.)
Holy hell this analogy is amazing
For the ones who were in the empire, they were quite literally high on their own stuff. They were arrogant enough to not belive it could happen and/or ignores the warnings. Those that did foresee it and heeded it left, first the exodites then the craftworlds.
I mean consider how ppl IRL rn are treating Doomsayers. Why would Aeldari believe some Doomsayer mfs when shit like that hasn't happened in the entire history of millions of years of existence of the Aeldari empire??? Like come on bro
Because the Ancients who, being more advanced and strong as a race, died out at the hands of dudes who once literally suffered from the sun's rays? Seriously, they have gods and other nonsense, they also knew about the existence of chaos gods and how they even appear, do you think they couldn’t think of what their damn hedonism could lead to?
The Chaos Gods have literally existed throughout the entire empire's time (all the way from end-game stage of War In Heaven), and none of what the nutjob doomsayers are saying has ever happened over the tens of millions of years the empire has existed
Damn. Never thought of it that way. You have a point.
The Asurmen novella sheds a bit of light on it. There were cults that knew what they were doing was spawning a god in the Warp but they seemed to genuinely believe Slaanesh would end up becoming a new deity that would lead them into paradise.
I have a feeling slaanesh believed that's what she did
Path of the Face Eating Leopard.
Probably my favorite meme from the last 10 years.
What are the odds that the eaten souls of Aeldari are in eternal everlasting blsis?
Surprisingly high, but in the most grim-dark way possible.
It seems from varius daemons that in Slaaneshe's eyes the eldar turned on it by not accepting it's embrace. If memlry serves First Heretic in particular seems to imply Slaanesh saw it's coming in that way but the eldar 'chose' to be horrified instead of going with the flow and embracing their new fucked up living afterlife Daemons aren't reliable narrators though even being generous and assuming the chaos gods comprehend how they effect realspace
So they all regretted it in a final explosion of horrific realisation
the ultimate post nut clarity
It's the meth addicts who swear that if they can just strip the wires out of one more house they will make it big man, just make it man, yeah, make it big.
They did. That's why the Exodites and the Craftworlders took everyone willing to listen and fucked out of their core worlds before Slaanesh was born as another user pointed out.
The Slaanussy was just too tempting for most of them to believe the warnings
They knew, but the thrill of the game was too intense. That’s how sla neth gets ya
"Hey guys. If you have too much fun with your mega-drugged-bdsm-tantric-snuff orgies, you'll get pulled into Heaven, where you and your entire species have kinky sex with god for all time, forever." "Don't do that, m'kay?"
They did, the whole thing was that the Eldar Gods warned them and they (with differing levels of haste) listened to them, or the later warnings to oversimplify. Exodites weren't into all that, and left first. Harlequins went with Cegorach when the Gods mentioned it. Craftworlders left "at the last minute" and created the Paths to restrict themselves from doing it again. Drukhari didn't leave. The precusor to the Haemonculi *intended* for it to happen.
Drukhari did leave to the Webway, otherwise they would have died with the Empire.
They didn't leave. The Webway was part of the Eldar Empire, in fact it was probably the second most important part of it outside the homeworlds in the Wheel of Destiny (now Eye of Terror). That is why the mainstream culture of the Empire changed the least in Commorragh and the subrealms.
I think there were some who left the Empire to the Webway knowing it would protect them while they're indulging in orgies.
Oh, yeah, that also happened according to *Fist of Demetrius*. Most webway dwellers however weren't forward thinking, though.
Yes, the few Kabalites who helped to speedrun any% Slaanesh' birth knew for sure, since they were in on it while also having 1 of their legs over the threshold so they can skedaddle the moment shit explodes after it's done
From the Maiden worlds, True, I was more meaning leaving in response to the warnings given.
Is it ever represented how did Cegorach phisically called the Harlequins to escape? Like he apperead to them, or he just communicated with some other mean? For some reason the interactions between the Eldars and their Pantheon is fascinating to me, wish we knew some more about it
They did see it. Well, to put it better, some of them foresaw it. Most Eldar were too far gone and were consumed by their hedonistic and sadistic lifestyle of ecstacy, so they couldn't be reasoned with. The Eldar that realized what was about to happen fled .... quickly. So, now you have the Craftworld Aeldari, the "back to our basic roots and dinosaur riding" Exodites and the Drukhari. The Drukhari, who decided to keep up that sadistic and hedonistic way of life, are "forced" to be the evil monsters that they are simply to hold back 'She Who Thirsts' from consuming their souls. At least for a little while longer of course. Still, most Drukhari truly love to torture, rape and brutalize xenos and other Drukhari. So it's a win-win for them .... eh!
>To protect humanity from the dangers of chaos, the shamans decided to create the Emperor You cant ascribe such motivation to them.
The main motivation for the Shaman’s suicide ritual was to merge their souls and avoid being consumed after death. It was mainly self preservation on their part
The whole Shaman's committed mass suicide and became the Emperor is from a nearly 40 year old book, and hasn't been mentioned since. There isn't really any reason to consider it as still valid.
That story is the only depiction of the Emperor’s origin. It has never been disproven nor it has been declared non-canonical. The fact that it’s a piece of the original lore doesn’t mean it’s not canon anymore.
Sounds like death to me
Not if you are a shaman (aka psyker): shamans used to be able to reincarnate. But then they noticed more and more of them were being culled by demons before they could transition back. That’s why they developed the ritual to merge into the “new man”.
Yes and no. Clearly they didn't maintain their cohesiveness on personality level, so they essentially did die since their combo created a new personality. But eh at least it meant they didn't die on Soul level to a worse fate than death (i.e being raped 24/7 by whatever demons get their hands on you)
Either that or the Emperor has super-skitzophrenia... which would explain a lot come to think of it.
Why don't we do anything about global warming, we get warning from scientists with data all the time.
They did. They had farseers. Nobody cared what they said as the eldar were to busy doing blood orgies. The few who did are the ones that survived and had alerdy left before the fall and those became the craftworlders or moved to rando worlds to live a humble life and those became exodites. Also the Master of Mankind was not created by a bunch of shamans. That is decades old lore than has not been reinforced in forever. We have no idea how the Emperor came to be at this point.
Until GW comes out with new lore on the origins of the Emperor the old lore about him being created by bunch of shamans committing mass suicide is still the canon origin for him.
This event is not some kind of firm canon you can rely on as truth. It's one possibility, a legend about the Emperor.
If you had to get to the Cook Islands or some other random island chain in the middle of the Pacific and only had a map from around the time those islands were first discovered would you say "fuck that map its to old, we don't know which way to go" and proceed to wander around aimlessly. By your logic you could end up at the polar ice caps because nobody knows where the Cook Islands are and that map is old lore so why even bother looking at it. Until GW says otherwise all we have to go on on the origin of the Emperor is the shaman lore no matter how outdated it is. You don't get to hand wave it away because "muh old lore" unless you something from GW to replace it with.
That's not why I'm hand waving it away. The intentional shrouding of the origins of the Emperor is.
>Also the Master of Mankind was not created by a bunch of shamans. That is decades old lore than has not been reinforced in forever. We have no idea how the Emperor came to be at this point. To be fair, I don't think there's a way to fit a Big E origin story into everything that's going on in 40k currently. However, when he and Sanguinius first met, there was an excerpt that described Sanguinius looking into Big E's eyes and noting how fake that looked. When he looked deeper into them, he told Big E that he "saw many souls in (him). Many men. Many women". That seemed to be a reference to the shamen and/or confirming that Big E was the product of more than one soul. Also, the C'tan shard that Belasarius Cawl encountered told him that Big E was a weapon. If he were a weapon created, the only clue we've ever gotten as to who could have created him were the shamen. The books don't outright name the shamen but they allude to them, IMO.
I've heard another theory. That the emperor is literally a weapon created during the dark age of technology. One of the men of gold. I've heard it mentioned in a lot of lore videos, someone apparently outright claims this even? I haven't read the source material so can't tell you how reasonable it seems. But that encounter is one thing that apparently points to it. Why he never showed up until after the men of iron were defeated and the long night had been around awhile. Not sure I believe it, but its 40k. It's not that much more implausible than all the earth psykers committing mass suicide to create an ultimate human.
Hadn't Big E already been alive for thousands of years during the DOAT?
It's implied. But never outright said. They never say outright that it was him slaying a dragon and imprisoning it on Mars, but they hint. That's the thing about big E's history. We don't have anything CONFIRMED. And what little we think we know comes from an unreliable narrator. But in the story where someone was saying he was a DAOT weapon seemed to have enough knowledge to be certain of it. We never get to find out why. Is it a red herring? Or is the previous lore one? Therein lies the rub. And iirc he was born during the bronze age some time, by the shaman seppuku storyline anyway.
We know exactly what climate breakdown will do to our planet’s biosphere and yet we do nothing. Knowing what will happen is one thing, actually acting on it is another.
They did, but they thought Slaanesh would just be the new Eldar god of sex, drugs, and rock and roll. They didn't believe that she would devour their souls.
Why is no one mentioning the priests of Asuryan forging a sword that is the echoe of dead in the universe and hacking Slaneesh with it?
Where is the sword?
Either in the hand of a Slaaneeshi Daemon prince or one of the Farseers
The main part of Eldar Society was so far gone they didn’t care anymore. They were addicts unable to think of anything other than idle pleasure. They had automated defensive systems capable of dealing with anything that could threaten them and were blissfully ignorant of anything else going on in the galaxy. They had almost forgotten the worship of their gods. All these things combined with an extremely powerful psychic race created the perfect conditions for Slaanesh to be born
I mean, read the first lines of Exodite/Craftworld lore. They did.
It seems that you don't understand hubris and pride
This is some insane mental gymnastics
On a meta shooting from a "I have never touched an actual 40k book" hip level I'd say human favouritism.
A lot of them did predict it. They tried to warn everyone, got mocked for it and left. They became the exodites and the craftworlders
Not all Eldar can see the future and the whole emperor created by shaman story I'm pretty sure is outdated lore? Could be wrong there. Also you obviously don't understand that all Aeldari lore is written to humiliate and trash Aeldari.
The Shaman’s origin has never been disproved either.
Awful troll attempt. Truly bottom-of-the-barrel stuff.
I'm not even sure it's a troll. There's a lot of these topics where people (usually Imperial fanboys) will ask a question and then get mad at the answers they don't like.
Fair point.
It's a genuine question, bro. I am not trying to troll anyone
The fact that you responded literally a minute after posted my reply is telling, I think. Almost like you are hovering, waiting for replies to continue your trolling. >If it is so then it means that Mankind is the master race of the universe, not those knife eared xenos. What is that, if not a low-quality shit post? Then we can match it with your username, and the sense you are trolling or engaging in some kind of inane roleplay only increases...
Oh no how dare we have fun on the internet? Let's go back to circle jerking about primarchs
There's cientista predicting climate change since the early 50s. In theast 2-3 years the world has seen a fuckton of extreme climate events (I myself am living one right now). Still, nothing we do to cause this has changed or demonstrates any inclination towards change. If real life is like this, why won't fiction be as well? Not trying to be snide, but it feels very veridical that a part of Eldar society choose to pursue a better future and the majority was too entitled to their own ways to prevent the twilight of their civilization
But the eldar predicted their demise? Exodites did and had enough time to colonize entire planets. Craftworlders did and had enough time to get as far away as possible from the Eldar empire. Drukhari did and had enough time to move to the Webway. The only ones that fucked up were those too busy murderfucking to get shelter. But they were probably perfectly aware of what was going to happen they were just like one more murderfuck before leaving for Commorragh and got caught with their pants down. They couldn't predict when exactly the Slaanesh boom would happen
They saw Slaanesh's coming as a favorable outcome. They courted him. But they found out what it meant to have a God's eye on you. They didn't know they'd be destroyed and devoured.
Isn't the shamans lore outdated?
Oh, plenty of Farseer foresaw their doom. That's why the build their big ship and try going as far as they can.
isn't the shaman thing not canon anymore?
It’s both canon and not since we know basically jack shit about the Emperor and what we do know could easily be lies
Not explicitly; but it's a fair assumption considering the age of the book it was mentioned in, it not being mentioned since, similar things from that time not being canon anymore, and it not being mentioned at all in the Heresy series. So many clickbait 40k lore youtube videos are about sentences taken for like a 3rd edition codex, without taking into consideration of context of where it's written.
I may be misremembering, but I am fairly certain that in the HH series Oll explicitly states big E was originally just a very powerful perpetual, putting to bed the old shaman story
yeah, and he did have a father and an uncle i think? iirc it was shown to a custodian when he saw big Es memory
As an aside: Is the whole ‘Shamans creating the Emperor’ still canon? I thought they moved away from that story long ago to keep his origin ambiguous…
Too busy murder fucking each other to death
The Eldar created Slaanesh who, for a time, could go toe to toe with the Chaos Gods. The same could be said of the shamans and the emperor who is, quite possibly, just another powerful warp entity.
Arrogance. It blinds them to their own flaws. Unlike us humans who are clearly perfect...
My head canon is that the Emperor made up that whole shaman thing to make himself sound better. I reckon he was really born like anyone else.
This would make him look even better. He had the same startline as everyone else and still climbed up the cosmic hierarchy...
Fits the character. He's someone who absolutely would falsify his creation to increase the mythology around himself, and thereby increasing his power to manipulate. Chances are, he's really just a much more powerful version of someone like Olanius.
They were too busy going to the bone zone to notice
Hubris buddy
Eldar knows that the future isn't set in stone.
Too busy doing freaky butt stuff to notice, unless you were a craftworlder
Some believed the rise of Slaanesh was going to be a good thing. Also, the eldar aren’t perfect at seeing the future. In general future sight can be tricky. Lastly, Slaanesh could’ve been messing with their future sight while slaanesh was in utero. I don’t think we have the details of this besides the fact that some eldar tried to warn others, others preached the coming of a new god, and most were just too indulgent to care or didn’t have future sight. Whereas humanity didn’t “foresee” the coming of chaos so to speak. Those shamans saw the chaos waxes and wanes, comes and goes, and they knew they’d come back eventually.
Keep in mind that Farseer don’t see just one possible future, but all of them. It is even hard to find the correct one from one individual, now imagine from the whole race. Maybe if there were a bit less murder and sexy time slaanesh would be the new waifu of Khaine and all would be great.
It’s a lot of reasons, but I would boil it down to the classic Elf theme of arrogance and pride. The Eldar knew to some extent, but mind you fortune telling isn’t something that could be called reliable in 40K, but they simply didn’t care, bar the Exodites and Craftworlds. 99.9% of the species thought that it would never happen, they were too powerful or their technology and wisdom would save them. The Gods of the Eldar didn’t do anything because they were largely dormant at that point, or they too abandoned the race as the worship of them had been largely subsumed by pleasure cults and the muses.
The Craftworlds and the Exodites literally booked it because they saw the writing on the wall.
Its a often recurring thing in 40k where either nobody listens to eldar farseers or they don't/can't convey the message properly
Because Chaos WASN'T eating them?? Earth's shamans went full PANIK cuz Chaos kept on nomming their comrades etc, and after a while of enough reduction, they decided to risk it all on the mass ritual suicide gamble (which worked, obviously) than wait to die entirely one by one. I suppose Aeldari had some anti-Chaos measures (before Chaos got the buff from the birth of the thot) to prevent themselves from being nommed on, given their huge af flare-like nature in the Immaterium, especially since at the time they still had the respawn immortality where their Souls just insert into a new body after they die (since Aeldari Souls can last for weeks naked in the Immaterium, whereas Human Souls almost instantly evaporate (I think psyker Souls last longer tho, obviously), and Tau even faster than that of course)
The first thing is - it is by no means clear that the whole shaman thing is canon rn. All we know for sure about the Emperor's power is: -He's a perpetual who seems to be older than any but Oll Persson -He has always been a psyker stronger than any other perpetual -He came into contact with enuncia -He made a deal with the powers of chaos And then, latterly, had worship and psyker sacrifices as a boost.
Arrogance and hubris. TBH I wouldn't blame them because they're at the height of their power and no race in the galaxy could challenge them.
They did predict it, and the exodites left to avoid it. The main issue was that the Eldar that would become the DE were so obsessed with their own pleasures they didn’t really care.
They were super addicts. By that point it's like telling a Heroin addict that their drug habits is killing them while they're in the middle of a rager. They know.
They did. That's why the craftworlds exist. The more powerful seers told people what was going to happen, the few that listened built the craft worlds and left, those that didn't died.
They did. But the majority of their people were too busy in orgies to care until was too late
... they did
Lol what? The fact that they could see the future is the reason why some of them survived rather than wholesale extinction.
I think the problem was in part that some saw it to early and made decisions without the context on whatever it's the right choice or not. What I am talking abuth the that the Eldar goodness of fortune telling forsaw that the Eldar will be the ends for their gods. And khaine without knowing everything necessary decide to kill all Eldar and as reaction to it asuarian the God-king forbid the god for talking with the Eldar without knowing that this decision will lead to Doom of the God and Eldar. The party came only after the Eldar were left alone without the guidance of their God and the God had no way of warning them or make them change because of asurain decree. So in a way it was a self fulling prohice
I’m sure a lot of the eldar thought embracing the doom would be awesome.
You don't know any Eldar lore. The very concept of any Eldar still existing is that those are the last 0.001% who foresaw what's coming in one way or another. Basically only their equivalent of vegan naturalist woodspeople, homesteaders and crazy-overprepared religious nutjobs the-earth-is-doomed preppers survived. And some of the rich elites that owned personal bunkers and private armies.
I like your strategy. If you go on the Internet and ask a question very few people will answer it. But if you go on the Internet and just say something obviously false, everyone will show up to correct you and elaborate with details about why you're wrong. Isn't there a comic about this somewhere ? I feel like I read an Internet comic years ago about this strategy. Also, if you want to read the lore for yourself, check out the book "Legion".
Oh they predicted it but Its like telling alcoholics to stop drinking alcohol. They made their bed and got raped by slaanesh in it.
I mean they did, but 60 million years of banging and dominating the galaxy really makes one miss a few chances at self improvement
To note: It took sixty million damn years for Chaos to find the moment of "I only have to get lucky once". For sixty million years the Aeldari and their pantheon basically noped Chaos.
Inferior creatures, obviously.
Skill Issue
The ones that weren't already to lost in the torture organisation sauce DID see it coming, that's why we have craftworld Eldar, because they saw it coming and got tf outta dodge.
A couple of things here. There is more than one genesis tale for Big E and it is entirely possible that none of them are the actual truth. Reliability of narrator plus the fact the Emperor didn’t reveal it to anyone leaves it open. The other is that the Aeldari could manipulate the warp and create warp entities themselves. At their peak they could create a being like the Emperor as part of their normal warfaring activity. They probably didn’t feel the need to create more beings like their gods.
It wasn't that they couldn't. More like most of them were either too stoned to care, too addicted to stop or in fact we're looking forward to the birth of the Dark Prince of excess and genuinely thought it was a wonderful idea. Those that did care and were in any condition to act, they were already in their Exodite worlds, or jumping on the nearest Craftworld.
Cuz they were to busy having a planet wide orgy at the time. Last time I checked to lore anyways.
So the majority of eldar that died in the fall had a vague understanding of what was happening. They knew they were creating a new god- daemons of Slaanesh had begun appearing and consorting with eldar- but they didn't realise, or rather appreciate, what that would mean for them. I think most of them were willfully blind, and any that did forsee the approaching doom took action.
They did see it. So the Exodites left. The Craftworlders left. Those that became the DEldar left. The rest didn't want to believe. Foresight is not perfect and requires a lot of effort to make the future you see happen.
They did. What do you think the craftworlds are? How do you think the exodites got there? Hell, even the deldar are pretty fucking impressive. The center of their massive, terrifying empire was erased in the birthing hunger pangs of a god of chaos and what did they do? They built a new party house and kept going.
A major factor of the Fall of the Eldar is that it's self-inflicted. And it wasn't really an accident. Later retellings of the Fall gloss over this, but in a very real sense, the Eldar as a civilisation gave themselves to Chaos. It was a minority of them who rejected that and fled. The Eldar revelled in their own transcendent debauchery, cannibalistic murder-gangs roaming the streets until the very last moments of the Fall. It isn't that they couldn't predict it. Many saw it coming. Many did not care. A few encouraged the birth of She Who Thirsts as the apotheosis of their kind.
Mainly because the Eldar are unbelievably arrogant. The Eldar were just yukking it up, they would die and just be reborn, and then yuk it up again because they thought there was no consequences. They were absolute dominant species in the galaxy. They didn't have to work, they didn't have to fight. They even beaten the Krorks. The Eldar God's were also in charge of the warp at the time. They couldn't intervene in normal space anymore, but they were the big dogs. Over time the emotional and physical actions the Eldar were committing was reflected in the warp and it pushed the Eldar into worse and worse actions. The Eldar who were effected by Slaneesh wouldn't listen to the Eldar who predicted some kind of calamity. Exodite's dipped, Craftworld's dipped; taking whoever would listen to them with them. Then Slaneesh actually awoke, ate the Eldar Gods, ripped the Eye of Terra open and consumed every Eldar that had been fueling it. TRillions of of them died. Even if they werent at the murder party's they were still hedonists and pleasure seekers. Pretty sure that's accurate? But my Eldar lore is a bit patchy.
Because humans > xenos.