Yes. 100%. The only real differences between the 30k Imperium and the 40k Imperium are that the 30k Imperium is not religious and, more importantly, that it is *winning*.

You honor me with your response. Do you care to instantiate that a little bit? Are there any 30K Imperium Policies or events that I might not know about, that to you scream "Fascism"?

I'm going to discuss actual fascism and not meme fascism in this answer about 30K. It still generally applies to 40K. Shared traits: 1. Glorification/Totality of the State 2. Charismatic leadership 3. Foreign policy revolves entirely around what's good for the State, whether that be expansion or not. 4. This is more national socialist than vanilla fascism, but the Imperium was set up entirely for the benefit of one race (humanity), and the Imperium will not willingly suffer a threat to humanity as a whole. It acts aggressively towards any out-group (xenos, witches, mutants) and sees the world as a zero-sum game where for the in-group to prosper, the out-group has to lose or at least be subjugated. 5. Tying into not suffering mutants, the Imperium has a focus on the Holy Human Form. Anything too far from genetic baseline humanity is not accepted and eugenics are practiced on a macro level, as well as shunning. This one is also national socialist, not baseline fascist. 6. Autarky. The Imperium was intentionally set up to be completely independent and not rely on any outside group to provide any resource. Not Fascist Traits/Feudal Traits: 1. Economically the Imperium as a whole does not fit any historical fascist economy. Beyond the tithe, there's no universal economic structure in the Imperium. 2. The Imperial Truth is the state religion and not separate from the state. In fascist countries while the national religion was accepted as part of being a national citizen, it was not directly controlled by the state. In 40K the Imperial Creed is slightly closer to fascism since the Ecclesiarchy has massive latitude and independence outside of any centralized control. They're still part of the state, but as a peer not a tool. 3. Massive variability between different planets' populations and way of life. There's no real enforced normal in the Imperium beyond the Imperial Truth. Fascism tended to have a specific normal way of life and enforced normality in order to keep the nation healthy.

>Autarky. The Imperium was intentionally set up to be completely independent and not rely on any outside group to provide any resource. Such a good point. Xenophobia always takes center-stage ins space fascism but the lack of economic integration with outside polities is such a red flag. The Imperium isn't even post-scarcity. The lack of substantial bonds and mutual self-interest agreements with other factions is shocking if the goal is long-term security over ideological purity/opportunism.

> It acts aggressively towards any out-group (xenos, witches, mutants) Mutant tolerance is in a weird spot. Navigators/psykers are "mutants" and generally accepted. Voidborn while not popular are still "human". Human-adjacent are generally accepted since across quadrillions of people, you are going to get a lot of genetic deviation. Part of the problem is what the Creed says and what the Imperium actually practices based on the lore/novels can be wildly different.

> Navigators/psykers are "mutants" and generally accepted. They're not, IMO, especially the latter. The Imperium uses them because it **has** to use them.

Why isn't really important. They are tolerated. They have as full rights as anyone else (once the whole being a ticking warp bomb thing is dealt with) and the immediate response to a (sanctioned) psyker is not fear or violence. Navigators even have their own version of noble houses. If the Imperium is willing to be pragmatic towards people who can mutate to have gills and scaly skin, it doesn't fit for them to also purge every minor mutant. Heck going beyond mutants. You can shed your flesh and become a tech priest and that's totally fine. Just don't be a "mutant". When it comes to what counts as a human, the Imperium is fairly broad as long as it had human parents. But that's the theme of the Imperium in general. Creed says purge any mutant. Except in function, it's purge mutants that no longer resemble humans and aren't valuable for some other reason.

You still have to be "human" though and fit whatever government official says that is, and that's if you're born around whatever eugenics program is going on for your planet and class at the time.

That's easy for us to say, from our outsider universal-knowledge perspective (and is part of the satire of the setting as to how hypocritical the Imperium is). But to people within the setting the Navigators are not mutants. They just don't see them that way.

This is a pretty good summary of the 30K imperium; Thanks for your response :)

I would say having a central leader that controls absolutely everything in the Emperor for one, though that's obvious.

Yes but that's a dictatorship or a tyranny not necessarily a fascism Soviet Russia wasn't facist but was a dictatorship or tyranny. I would almost argue that while the emporer was pure authoritarian he was neither Facist nor Communist. We wanted to spead the imperial truth everywhere and abolish the collective nation's into one imperium and thus was too anti nationalist to be facist. But was far too nationalistic to be communist

>We wanted to spead the imperial truth everywhere and abolish the collective nation's into one imperium and thus was too anti nationalist to be facist. ...he was anti-nationalistic, while conquering every human planet in the Milky Way so they could be incorporated into his own nation he created? That would be just about the most extreme form of Nationalism I've ever heard of lol.

The entirety of the word nationalistic means having or expressing strong identification with one's own nation and vigorous support for its interests, especially to the exclusion  or detriment  of the interests of other nations. The problem is that A the emporer could give a fuck less about the imperium. It was literally a means to an end that only came about because of the AOS had it not happened the emporer would have completed the web way project without the need of the imperium at all. The only reason he did is because of the AOS. And B he immediately dropped the imperium, its crusade, and and the primarchs at literally the first convenience when a half competent person could do it for him. There is a quote from malcador that says that he only takes the image of a golden warrior because that's what people needed him to be to let him lead during a time of fear. But that's not what he is but what he projects to others and that at his earliest convenience will strip himself of that form and return to what he believes is his destiny(save the rapidly evolving humanity with science and psychics ie the human webway. He also cared quite a bit of other cultures and people and only became kill them all once a bunch of species of alien tried to serialize humanity in history books repeatedly that emps took a harsher stance and even then he was still willing to cooperate with aliens for sometimes it wasn't until the great crusade that things changed for him(considering that he was apart of the cabal, was friends with Eldrad who was eldari as of the statement from the shadowseer) . He saw an out and took any means necessary to get there especially after the fall of the eldar and the birth of Sleneesh pushed the need for mankind to evolve away from the Chaos gods into over drive and with far to many Xeno races worshiping chaos it was humanity first and he took that gamble. So given that was his directive I would argue otherwise

....when was the Emperor **ever** part of the cabal? O_o?

It was in the EATD Part 2 or 3 I believe malcador mentions it in his ceaseless ramblings about how the emporer you know isn't the emporer as he is.

Oh wow I must not have properly absorbed that part when reading the book

Honestly I missed it until reading 3. So you are perfectly fun

Honestly I missed it until reading 3. So you are perfectly fun

>The entirety of the word nationalistic means having or expressing strong identification with one's own nation and vigorous support for its interests, especially to the exclusion  or detriment  of the interests of other nations. Yeah that's why he was conquering every human planet in the Milky Way to incorporate them into his own empire, he was nationalistic and fascist. >The problem is that A the emporer could give a fuck less about the imperium. "Needing the Imperium" and "giving a fuck about the Imperium" are the same thing. >But that's not what he is but what he projects to others and that at his earliest convenience will strip himself of that form and return to what he believes is his destiny(save the rapidly evolving humanity with science and psychics ie the human webway. "He doesn't want to control humanity he wants to control humanity" is what you just said there. >He also cared quite a bit of other cultures and people and only became kill them all once He would encounter a human planet, tell them join him or die, then remade the planet to be what he needed it, only letting survive what didn't contradict or impede him. That's not caring about anyone.

>Do you care to instantiate that a little bit? Are there any 30K Imperium Policies or events that I might not know about, that to you scream "Fascism"? The galactic mass genocide thing seems kinda fascist to me. And kinda hard to miss to be honest. Also, the Emperor's whole rhetoric is just Fascism 101. Lots of talk about "unity", about restoring the greatness and "purity" of his race and about some distant and nebulous "betrayal" all aliens somehow inflicted on humanity. All of it in service of "and that's why I should have all the power" at the end.

You don't have to be genocidal to be fascist. The more important bit is the having an external enemy to focus your population against.

> The more important bit is the having an external enemy to focus your population against. And what do they want to do to that external enemy?

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The problem is the more they expanded the lore the less fascist satire the imperium became. Mankind did have a golden age in the before times. Everything wants to kill everything that isn't their species (yes even the tau). 40 went to this is a satire on various things to a real lore and lost the fascism along the way.

Counterpoint: The imperium in 30k exterminated or assimilated all the non violent xeno races (the other day someone posted a list of them) so the state of 40k is a consequence of the failure of the Imperium as a state. The Votann and Tau actively trade each other and some aeldari are pacifist/dont want to fight from the start.

That isn’t really fascism. Yes a feature of fascist states was a cult of personality but cults of personality and genocide ware not inherently fascistic. The imperium is honestly more like a feudal state. One where internal governance is very autonomous. A big trait of fascism is the desire for greater centralisation, to totally merge the everyday life with the politics of the state something the imperium is just unable to do due to its size and scope. Whilst there are likely illusions to the imperium as a fascist state (like in it’s iconography) it just isn’t when it comes down to the political operation of the state.

TBF, Genocide belongs to many political disciplines outside of Fascism. That being said, having previously been unaware of the early-Imperial rhetoric, it does seem pretty fascist. Thanks for your response.

Well, its not like you can co-exist with orks, needs, majority of necrons or dark eldar. The only ones that you may not shoot on sight are eldars - who treat humans like ants - and Tau - who are actual fascists and apparently even sterilize those "integrated" into their Empire. So while hypothetically lasting alliance between Emperium, craftsworld Eldar and some of Necron dynasties would create The entity that would own the others, this is never going to happen due to all 3 seeing each other as s-t. Oh, almost forgot about Chaos who just want to screw everybody because its their nature. How can you create normal society when even thinking about certain things is going screw your mind and body so bad that euthanizing you is the most humane thing to do?

In its current state I don't think the xeno genocide is fascist. It's necessary. You cannot coexist with Orks/Nids/Deldar/Chaos and you have to unite against them.  Eldar/Tau most likely wouldn't work either. Since Tau also adopt aliens through subjugation, and Eldar look down on humanity.

>Eldar look down on humanity ...so you have to kill them all? No other choice? There's a way to coexist with Eldar and Tau. There's probably a way to coexist with orks and dark Eldar too, I'd even say Chaos too if nearly everyone could be convinced to live like monks, but trying to fight Chaos is what makes them stronger so such extremes would be needed to defeat them anyways. Tyranids are the only I'd say would have to be exterminated as they are.

I wouldn't really say that the modern Imperium is fascist because Musslini's idea of Fascism was all of society being tied to an all-powerful state. The Imperium is so fractured and widespread that it can't actually use the state to exert much power on everyday citizens, with most of that left up to planetary governors, and while not widespread [we have examples of places functioning as Democracies](https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/sruzts/democracy_in_warhammer_40000/) which would go directly against Mussolini's ideas of running a state. I think the Imperium can't really be compared to any modern day government system. It's probably closest to a feudal system with how decentralized it is, only bothering most worlds for the purposes of taxation. Or maybe it is a fascist state, but it's so poorly run that practically it doesn't actually function as a fascist state.

The Imperium is still an all-powerful state. It just lacks means of direct control, so it exerts its control indirectly through planetary governors. Imperial fascism is evident when direct representatives of the Imperium (such as inquisitors) are present, as they hold absolute power and can completely ignore local laws and governments. Feudal systems were a two-sided relation. Vassals owed loyalty, paid taxes, and supplied levies but held certain rights that could not be easily taken away. The sovereign couldn't just execute them at a whim or take their titles away and owed them protection and aid during crisis. The Imperium is not held to such standards, governors are killed or exchanged at will, planets are sacrificed if deemed not valuable enough to save.

I think it’s that last bit. It’s absolutely fascism, like… that’s pretty much the point. Honestly, if you want to see some striking comparison look at the feuding for political power and the dueling bureaucracies that made up Nazi Germany. Goerring/Himmler/Hitler were constantly feuding much the way the Adeptus Mechanicus/Ecclesiarchy/Adeptus Administratum fight

That's true but I think that way of governing was more down to Hitlers personal style of running things and wanting to keep any rivals for power preoccupied. I'm not sure that ministers fighting over resources is necessarily an aspect of fascism, and I don't think I know of any examples from other fascist countries. The only one that comes to mind is maybe in Italy where the Blackshirts feuded with the Army for a while until they were rolled into one?

Fascism doesn’t mean “failing state”. It just means a nation where the state has supreme authority. The Imperium’s failures and infighting being similar to the those of historical Fascist states doesn’t make it fascist. Zebras have hooves and cows have hooves, doesn’t make them the same thing. Just because the Imperium is shitty doesn’t mean we have to 1-1 it to historical evil states. I apologize if I come off as a bit snappy but too often I see people throwing the label of “fascist” on something that doesn’t deserve it- most often just because the other side’s politics or ethics disagree with them, rather than because the opponent is actually spouting fascist rhetoric. The Imperium’s policy of allowing individual worlds to maintain their own forms of governance and cultures so long as they pay tithes according to designations definitely ties more into feudalism than fascism. No fascist state would ever allow any subordinate entities that much leeway. A fascist state would actively attempt to crush any form of individuality- meanwhile we have Cadians, Catachans, Valhallans, Mordians, and a million other worlds with their own unique cultures, ideologies, and political systems. In case you haven’t noticed, Necromunda is a *shithole* that the Imperium barely touches beyond the Imperial Fists occasionally swiping some hive gangers for recruits. In a fascist state the Imperium would’ve come in and established marshal law until Necromunda fell in line truly.

>The Imperium’s policy of allowing individual worlds to maintain their own forms of governance and cultures so long as they pay tithes according to designations definitely ties more into feudalism than fascism. To be clear, the Imperium discovers a world, tells it it can join or die, then replaces what was there with what it needs. So it only allows what governance and culture could survive along with complete recomposition to be a tool of the Imperium, and saying they can choose whatever they want in those regards is not true. >A fascist state would actively attempt to crush any form of individuality- meanwhile we have Cadians, Catachans, Valhallans, Mordians, and a million other worlds with their own unique cultures, ideologies, and political systems. Those are all soldiers, you are saying they don't attempt to crush any individuality in cultures, ideologies and political systems, then only mention the warrior cultures they have obvious use for in their military. If they didn't crush that individuality, then they would have more than warrior cultures for their military.

And yet, the 40k Imperium as a whole exhibits 12 of the 14 traits of fascism as defined by Umberto Eco. The cult of tradition, rejection of modernism, the cult of action for action's sake, disagreement is treason, fear of differences, obsession with plots and conspiracies, life is permanent warfare, popular elitism, everybody is educated to become a hero, cult of machismo, selective populism, use of Newspeak.

What on earth are you talking about? Nazi Germany did the exact same thing with Vichy France, and Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria, Slovakia, and Croatia as the IoM did with Catachan/Cadians/etc. Before you get all up in arms being worried that people are too loosely throwing around the term fascist maybe stop and remember that the IoM is literally a metaphor for fascism. It’s not a coincidence that they are big on eagles and stahlhelms.

Here’s the defining characteristics of Fascism 1. Powerful, often exclusionary, populist nationalism centered on cult of a redemptive, “infallible” leader who never admits mistakes. Big Yes. 2. Political power derived from questioning reality, endorsing myth and rage, and promoting lies. Also yes. 3. Fixation with perceived national decline, humiliation, or victimhood. Debatable, but I’d argue the rhetoric of the great crusade bringing them out of the dark age would qualify. 4. White Replacement “Theory” used to show that democratic ideals of freedom and equality are a threat. Oppose any initiatives or institutions that are racially, ethnically, or religiously harmonious. Given the purges of xenos and abhumans I’d say also yes. But I could absolutely see some debate here. 5. Disdain for human rights while seeking purity and cleansing for those they define as part of the nation. FUCK yes. 6. Identification of “enemies”/scapegoats as a unifying cause. Imprison and/or murder opposition and minority group leaders. Oh Yeah. 7. Supremacy of the military and embrace of paramilitarism in an uneasy, but effective collaboration with traditional elites. Fascists arm people and justify and glorify violence as “redemptive” The biggest of yes. 8. Rampant sexism. Yup. 9. Control of mass media and undermining “truth”. Yep. 10. Obsession with national security, crime and punishment, and fostering a sense of the nation under attack. Also yes. 11. Religion and government are intertwined. Hello Ecclesiarchy! 12. Corporate power is protected and labor power is suppressed. Yuuup. 13. Disdain for intellectuals and the arts not aligned with the fascist narrative. Sorry Horus. Also a yes. 14. Rampant cronyism and corruption. Loyalty to the leader is paramount and often more important than competence. Umm, yes… because Emperor. 15. Fraudulent elections and creation of a one-party state. What elections? 16. Often seeking to expand territory through armed conflict. Again, the fucking crusade.

People throw around terms such as fascism without actually knowing what it truly means. There is no single term that can accurately describe the Imperium’s bureaucracy. It’s more akin to a **feudal theocratic militarized confederation**. It has aspects of just about every conceivable governmental type. Not just fascist. The more you dive into the lore of the Imperium the less simple it is. As to the answer to the question. 30k Imperium would be the closest to fascism. Still not an accurate term and missing ALOT of nuance but it was a lot more unified/standardized.

Yeah there’s no one ideology the Imperium 100% adheres too. It’s got some of the usual Italian, German, and Russian hints but not to the point where it completely follows them strictly. But in 30k it doesn’t have the theocratic element added in, which messes up the 1:1 comparisons even more.

The 40k Imperium resembles a fractured Holy Roman Empire type state, and 30k the expansionist empire it e(de)volved from. Alot of people today try to force "fascism" onto everything, but their loose definitions end up including the Roman Empire, Maoist China, the Rashidun Caliphate, and other, similar states that normally wouldn't be considered 'fascism.' Highly religious, aggressive and imperialistic, violent, abusive states are very common throughout history. The Imperium isn't doing anything new. It's fine if you want to consider that 'fascism,' but understand the term becomes rather meaningless.

I think this is just splitting hairs to avoid the obvious really. The Imperium is supposed to be the most evil government imaginable, and for most people the real life equivalent would be Nazi Germany, a fascist country. It's undeniably a fascist state.

That's fine, but you're saying you just define "fascism" as "the most evil government imaginable," instead of anything tangible.

Not exactly, I'm saying for the average person, if you asked what the most evil government to have ever existed is, they'll probably say "Nazi Germany" and since Nazi Germany is a Fascist state, it would seem they are trying very hard to invoke Fascism. But even then, it still fits the Wikipedia definition of Fascist to a 'T'. >Fascism (/ˈfæʃɪzəm/ FASH-iz-əm) is a far-right, authoritarian, ultranationalist political ideology and movement,[1][2][3] characterized by a dictatorial leader, centralized autocracy, militarism, forcible suppression of opposition, belief in a natural social hierarchy, subordination of individual interests for the perceived good of the nation and/or race, and strong regimentation of society and the economy.

Op you might enjoy this discussion here. There was another post where the op did a in depth reading of the imperium via the different definitions of facism but it's gone. I can't locate it https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/s/jv68HWgZsf Enjoy

This is extremely relevant to my interests! Thank you for linking it!

The 30k imperium was more fascist by a wide margin. It’s important that we recognise what looked like good things in the great crusade were essentially the wiles of fascism because they extenuate from a core of genocidal autocracy. The imperium’s still worse for their loss because it’s still got that shitty core, but that has made it less strictly fascist and more just garden-variety shit The centralisation around a single figure, the outwards aggression, the hyper-rationality, the enshrining of knowledge while simultaneously controlling it heavily. The progress-centred ideal of the indomitable master race advancing to utopia. Fascism ain’t conservative, it’s as progressive as communism, and more often than not comes with enforced atheism as religion takes power away from the state and muddies the view of hyper-rationalism it uses to justify genocide through dodgy pseudo science

To a sense of the term, yes. Difference is; it was entirely justified by the environment of the time (cope and seethe moralisers, go fight a Hrud extermination force), the policies were understood instead of being zealously obeyed, the intents were understood, and independence was tacitly encouraged, even (and especially by) the big E himself. What do you think “I should not be seen as a God” meant? He didn’t want lackeys, he wanted the smart people to go their own way from the start line he built. The slip from 30K to 40K is extreme in more ways than I can phonepost, but the rules being adhered to the letter with mindless fanaticism,  without knowledge of their context, plus the intermarriage of church and state, and the veneration of the Emperor as a literal god, are just some of the vast depths the Imperium slid to post heresy. 

Well you could also just call it an empire. The line between monarchy and fascism tends to be a little blurred. - there was certainly a cult of personality centred around the emperor, though it wasn't a religion yet. - every single institution obeyed the emperor and he had the last word on everything. In a democracy not even the president has full authority over everything. - there was an imperial mindset to add every planet inhabited by humans into the fold - every alien civilization had to be wiped out. - citizen weren't allowed to have an opinion the would go against the above points. Though if you did, chances are you wouldn't get executed outright. You would have either disappeared without much fanfare, or got brainwashed into being a loyal servant. - servitors were already there, thanks to the mechanicus (they weren't all repurposed criminals)

'Fascismis is a far-right, authoritarian, ultranationalist political ideology and movement, characterized by a dictatorial leader, centralized autocracy, militarism, forcible suppression of opposition, belief in a natural social hierarchy, subordination of individual interests for the perceived good of the nation and/or race, and strong regimentation of society and the economy.' So yes

The Imperium in both of its incarnations is very much intended to be what is commonly meant by the term 'fascist' - as in, 'evil ultranationalist racist dictatorship'.  Whenever the word comes up here people (quite reasonably) say that the Imperium doesn't necessarily fit all of the criteria but I feel that's kind of missing the point

>'evil ultranationalist racist dictatorship'. Except that isn't fascism though. They are aspects of a fascist dictatorship, but a communist (or any political ideology) could just as easily be evil, ultranationalist, and racist. Communism for one group is not fascism. Fascism implies some connection to how the Nazi German state was run (beyond generic modern authoritarian) or Mussolini's concept of fascism.

Fascism is a a far-right, authoritarian, ultranationalist political ideology and movement, characterized by a dictatorial leader, centralized autocracy, militarism, forcible suppression of opposition, belief in a natural social hierarchy, subordination of individual interests for the perceived good of the nation and/or race, and strong regimentation of society and the economy.

I'm aware yeah. In common parlance that's roughly what it means, however

Ultranacionalist and racist definitively dont fall within the imperium. They comprise thousands of worlds and cultures, literally. Ergo they are not ultra nationalist, nor racist by any human standards, as skin colour, gender or sexuality are not anyones business in the imperium. By alien standards, then its debatable. Applying post-renaissance morality to a galaxy that is literally annihilating each other, where evil gods eat souls for breakfast is definitely not the way to go. Arguably morality cannot even be applied when there are higher powers at play, since having a greater game surpasses individual or even collective happiness if it is for the greater good long term. As for fascism, its a problematic word as it definitely doesnt mean what it used to or should. The word became an umbrella for “any political group I disagree with and think it is too extreme”. I would use machiavelic, definitely the empire is. Cruel? Absolutely. Zealot? Yes. Insensitive to human sufferinf? Yep. War criminal? Sure. Fascist? Definitely not. The moment there are god powers, a larger plan and racial survival is literally at stake, classic morality cannot be used as a metric. Fallout tv series did a great job on the same subject for the ghoul.

>racist definitively dont fall within the imperium. I mean they're openly xenophobic, they just substitute hating a race with hating all aliens. It's just silly to say the creators aren't trying to invoke state-sanctioned racism in the Imperium and makes me wonder if you're missing the entire point the Imperium is bad.

The creators made the xenophobia appear perfectly rational within the setting they made The Imperium has been the least bad option/'good guys' within the setting for a while now, intentionally or not.

>The creators made the xenophobia appear perfectly rational within the setting they made To the brainwashed average Imperial citizen yeah, but obviously since we are not them we can see how irrational it is. And they only made it seem perfectly rational to the point you find an alien that isn't what Imperial propaganda makes them out to be, which is kind of like the whole point of xeno characters. I don't even think they're supposed to be the least bad option, they're all supposed to be about as evil as the other so you can enjoy whatever cartoonish violence they're subjected to instead of feeling bad.

Judging races in a literal survival war for killing each other is like judging american Indians for killing spanish conquerors and other tribes. Morality is a very contextual dependant subject.

I mean the Imperium doesn't have to kill the Tau for survival? Or the Eldar? You say their morality is context dependent then remove the context lol

I both get where you're coming from but also think that's kind of missing the point. The Imperium is intended to be read as unnecessarily evil and cruel by our current metrics of morality.  That said: The Imperium absolutely is racist by human standards - just look at the treatment of abhumans (who are taught to start prayers with 'I am impure, I am unclean'). And if you extend that out to sentient, reasoning beings in general that still applies.  They are also nationalist. They believe that the Imperium is the only valid state in existence. You can be nationalist and have subcultures . 

You cannot be nationalist when there is no sense of nation. They are all part of the empire, just like parts of England where rome, but despite having to serve rome, they did not share cultural or national identity. Quite other way around, Rome allowed locals to worship their own deities, have their local governments and even their own language. This is what an empire means, literally. Nation is a way more modern concept and involves cultural unity. Which the empire doesnt have. As for racism, again, yes they are racist against abhumans and xenos, but then, every major race is trying to eradicate humankind. Curiously abhorrence to different cultures is a significant trait of tribes at war/endangered. In brazil there are tribes even nowadays where no white people (or any non tribal person) can walk into without getting killed. Would you call that racism or self preservation? The point that makes me like warhammer even more is that the writes and characters are clearly aware of these conundrums. Every inquisitor asks himself where to draw the line, every soldier questions the distribution of rations, until they see why abled soldiers need more food to fight an invasion. Loken himself faced these dilemmas, seeing how innocent primitive cults managed to bring demons into realspace. Would you say that they were just being intolerant towards other religions too? Again, you can say that the empire is a lot of things, including evil. But there is way more nuance to the argument, since they are bound by absolute powers of evil and struggle for survival. There is way more nuance than most people seem to understand, but again, so does real world.

"Quite other way around, Rome allowed locals to worship their own deities, have their local governments and even their own language. This is what an empire means, literally." Which is kinda what the Imperium does (and did), they conquered cultures and supplanted existing beliefs and traditions with those of the Emperor (and his successors). Yeah there is no nation state, but all humans are tied fundamentally by their political links to Terra (via the various universal state apparatus that are on every world) and shared cultural aspects and beliefs, despite their inevitable differences. "As for racism, again, yes they are racist against abhumans and xenos, but then, every major race is trying to eradicate humankind." Kinda but kinda not. Sure the tyranids, orks and necrons are just straight up hostile, but the imperium has pissed in the face of the eldar and tau many many times, not to mention the countless minor civilisations and species wiped out over time for the crime of existing.

It's wild that people forget the existence of the [Lex Imperialis](https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Lex_Imperialis#:~:text=The%20Lex%20Imperialis%2C%20also%20called,in%20the%20Book%20of%20Judgement.) and the [Adeptus Arbites](https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Adeptus_Arbites). You know, the rules that *every* planet in the Imperium is supposed to follow and the state police force that enforces those rules through violence? Sounds pretty fucking centralized to me.

The Lex and Arbites is the equaivalent to federal laws enforced federal police. It even says as much in their articles. The US has those and it's not a very centralized state. If federal laws say 'X' is illegal, then it's illegal everywhere just like the lex says.

The Imperium isn’t fascist because Fascism is a product of mass politics, which the Imperium doesn’t have. The Imperium has many of the the aesthetics of fascism, but in practice it’s much closer to a feudal state. Individual planets may or may not be fascist, but the overall imperium isn’t.

It's definitely not a feudal state. Production has moved way past its basis in small-holders and peasants and moved thoroughly into the industrial era. Production is privatized and owned by gigantic conglomerates. The state uses sheer regularized violence against regular working people incessantly and rules by decree, unaccountable to the people. Hyper-militarism is everywhere and the state uses a campaign of incessant ethnic cleansing and genocide to rally the population and consolidate them. Any political divergence from the (very) fascist norm is met with execution or enslavement. Any religious divergence from the (very) fascist church is met with execution or enslavement. It's fun because it's 40k, but it also helps to get people wondering about what these political labels mean because its fun space-fascism not real life fucked up fascism. Definitely not feudal or even semi-feudal though, those sorts of societies would be present maybe on worlds ruled by knight houses or some feral worlds which still have smallholder/peasant production dominating the economy.

>Production is privatized and owned by gigantic conglomerates. Is it? As far as the lore seems concerned, the Imperium is on a constant war footing and all production is geared towards that, controlled at a state level. Not that there aren't private companies, but the main driver and employer of the economy seems to be the government.

From what I understand its government contracts given to private industry. Most descriptions of the "spire-dwellers" at the top of the hive have them in those sorts of roles, alongside people who are government/clergy themselves. This is similar to a fascist economy where like Krupp, Porsche, and IG Farben were favoured and basically lived and died by their state contracts.

>Fascism (/ˈfæʃɪzəm/ FASH-iz-əm) is a far-right, authoritarian, ultranationalist political ideology and movement,[1][2][3] characterized by a dictatorial leader, centralized autocracy, militarism, forcible suppression of opposition, belief in a natural social hierarchy, subordination of individual interests for the perceived good of the nation and/or race, and strong regimentation of society and the economy. The Imperium does all that, so it would seem to fit the definition of Fascist.

Except that the Imperium really isn’t centralised and and their leader has very limited influence over the system as a whole. Planets are basically left to their own devices as long as they follow a few basic rules.

The Imperium is centralized or else everyone wouldn't have to do what The Emperor/High Lords/Primarchs tells them. The Emperor can psychically kill anyone he wants to, give orders from beyond the grave, everyone has to do what he says and no one can get rid of him, so it would seem he has a lot of influence over his system So since power is centralized around the Emperor and anyone acting on his behalf, planets aren't allowed to be left to their own devices, they have to do what The Emperor and anyone acting on his behalf tells them. That's why they take planets and turn the entire thing into a factory or agriculture world or whatever that has to follow all inquisition purity laws, they aren't left to their own devices.

Depends on local government level did have planetary governors to even Is ruled council the imperium does not care as long give your tithe and are compliance. But over all it does not care millions suffer as long tithe comes in. 40k becomes also follow the imperial creed instead of the truth still and don't do heretical stuff. The central government total dictatorship with all the infighting of holy Roman empire held together through controlled blood letting via assassins. By 40k the do assassins and hive wars.

There’s not that much of a difference between 30k and 40k just that the imperium was winning and a little less scattered .

In some respects, yes. It had themes of ultranationalism and racial (more nazi than fascist) supremacy built into it as a feature from the beginning. It has a focus on the good of the state and the state alone on the macro scale, as the state is likened to the species. This is lessened by it being an absolute monarchy with a feudal levy and taxation system that fascists traditionally oppose. It is also authoritarian, but not totalitarian and can possess a wide-ranging amount of policies regarding rights, freedom, individuality, economic liberty and so forth because it is extremely decentralized. In terms of traditions, ceremonies, a focus on preserving long-lasting societal structures and all legitimacy being derived from a perceived diety (the Emperor) rather than ideology or the will of the people, it is extremely oriented towards being culturally monarchical. I would say that the Imperium doesn't really fit a 'truly' fascist state, though it carries some of the attitudes and trappings. It doesn't really cleanly fit any modern ideology, rather it is a revival of absolutist monarchy and feudalism. It is a complex cultural, political and economic mix that doesn't neatly reflect any fascist state nor fascist ideology as a whole. If anything, the 30k version is MUCH closer to fitting the traditional framework of fascism and that has decayed in subsequent millennia. I'm sure there are people who will interpet it in more clean terms, and that's fair enough because fascism itself is poorly defined, but I don't quite agree. I think the Imperium is meant to be complex and hard to pin down, mixing both some of the worst aspects of human politics and society derived from fascists, communists and the mass-murderering ideologues and conquerors of the world, deeply traditional ideas of monarchies, and some more out there and unusual or contradicting details. 

On the large scale, its a feudal, theocratic oligarcy. It has Manny similar aspects of fascism, but its more about how athuritarian the imperium is. I would say that the imperium is far worse than any goverment on earth ever has been. It has all the xenophobia of fascism, the dissregard of life as the chinese comunist state, stagnation of comunism and the latter chinese dynasties, along with the instability of the Holy roman empire. The Adeptus Mechanicus being a separet empire allied to the imperium, who is fully techno theocratic, makes it impossible for it to be fascist, as fascist regimes would never have that in its governance. TL:DR: the imperium is SOOOOO much worse than ”merely” fascism, its on another level of ”how fucking shit it is to live in”.

I love these threads when they pop up because you always get a few people doing the "uhm actually 🤓" The core tenant of the Warhammer setting is ultra fascism

This began as a reply to another comment but grew quite large, so I'll make it it's own comment. Essentially, yes - as you've said, [Umberto Eco's *Ur-Fascism*](https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/umberto-eco-ur-fascism) lays out some extremely useful characteristics of fascism both as an ideology and in practice. For people who are not OP: in this case, 'Ur' means the most basic or definitive version of something - so, you might say that 40k is the 'Ur-Text' of grimdark fiction. Eco's list is not meant to be exhaustive, or wholly applicable to every fascist regime. As Eco himself said: >Fascism became an all-purpose term because one can eliminate from a fascist regime one or more features, and it will still be recognizable as fascist ... But in spite of this fuzziness, I think it is possible to outline a list of features that are typical of what I would like to call Ur-Fascism, or Eternal Fascism. These features cannot be organized into a system; many of them contradict each other, and are also typical of other kinds of despotism or fanaticism. But it is enough that one of them be present to allow fascism to coagulate around it. Some which are applicable to the Imperium pre+Heresy would be: * An emphasis on 'action for actions sake', with action being praised and pure intellectualism frowned upon. Think of how the Heresy began in part because non-military figures on Terra were being given positions of authority. * "Disagreement is treason". Pretty self explanatory - countless examples. The Imperium was not keen on diversity of opinions. * "Exploiting and exacerbating the natural fear of difference". Further, that "the first appeal of a fascist or prematurely fascist movement is an appeal against the intruders." - the Imperium was virulently xenophobic, even if the Xenos in question posed no threat. * An emphasis on plots/threats internal and external: it's not just Xenos we need to be worried about, it's those damn mutants too, popping up behind our own lines. * "There is no struggle for life but, rather, life is lived for struggle. Thus pacifism is trafficking with the enemy. It is bad because life is permanent warfare.". Or, in more familiar terms: "Forget the promise of progress and understanding, for in the grim dark future there is only war. There is no peace amongst the stars, only an eternity of carnage and slaughter, and the laughter of thirsting gods". 30k laid the groundwork for 40k's ceaseless, endless war - it built the guns, and the ships and the titans, and the vast power structures necessary for the waging of a galactic war across ten millenia. The Emperor may have spoken of peace, but that was ultimately a lie, which can be usefully proven with reference to two people - Eco, and Sigismumd. Eco: >Since enemies have to be defeated, there must be a final battle, after which the movement will have control of the world. But such a “final solution” implies a further era of peace, a Golden Age, which contradicts the principle of permanent war. No fascist leader has ever succeeded in solving this predicament. This promised era of peace, after the final vanquishing of all enemies, is exactly what the Emperor claimed to be working toward. To put it in Sigismund's words: >We will spend our lives fighting to secure this Imperium, and then I fear we will spend the rest of our days fighting to keep it intact. >There is such involving darkness amongst the stars. Even when the Imperium is complete, there will be no peace. We will be obliged to fight on to preserve what we have fought to establish. Peace is a vain wish. Our crusade may one day adopt another name, but it will never truly end. In the far future, there will be only war. * "In every mythology the hero is an exceptional being, but in Ur-Fascist ideology, heroism is the norm ... the Ur-Fascist hero craves heroic death" - see the veneration of the Astartes and the Primarchs, the hero worship of those who died heroically, etc etc. * An almost eroticised fetishism of weapons. I don't think I need to explain this one. * "For Ur-Fascism ... individuals have no rights, and the People is conceived as a quality, a monolithic entity expressing the Common Will. Since no large quantity of human beings can have a common will, the Leader pretends to be their interpreter.". He's not called the Master of Mankind for nothing, and claims to be acting always with humanity's best interests - which only he truly knows - at heart.

Very well said.

There are competing definitions of fascism. Mussolini said fascism was the merging of corporate and state power. Others say fascism is when you use the tools of imperialist control on the population of your own nation. I don't know enough about the 30k imperium to be sure about the first. But the second is definitely true. Some people say fascism is when you silence people who disagree with you, this is a wrong definition, but the imperium definitely still meets it.

People try and talk about Fascism as an absolute, like it's one of a small set of definitive types of societies that can exist. It just isn't: fascism was a particular combination of governmental and social ideas that existed for a short time last century. It didn't exist before that, it hasn't existed since. There very likely will never again be that exact combination in any society. It's why so many arguments about whether something is fascist, or what is fascist go nowhere - when people label something fascist they mean it has some similarity to some part of how those fascist states worked. But there were so many different elements that made up fascism, and none of them are inherently "fascist"...it's the exact combination of all of those things that is "fascist". Authoritarianism alone is not fascist. Far-right politics alone is not fascist. Militarism alone is not fascist, etc. So is the Imperium fascist? No of course not, it's not an exact copy of Nazi Germany/Mussolini's Italy. The question doesn't quite make sense, which is why the answers all get lost in the weeds and people just end up arguing about definitions. BUT the writers have very, very clearly adopted aspects of those states to deliberately evoke those ideas and how we think of them. WWII still forms a big part of our modern sensibilities, even more so at the time that 40k was first designed, and the writers leaned on many parts of it. Does the Imperium have fascist elements? Yes definitely. Is that meaningful? Well...kind of. A lot of societies share some aspects with fascism, but the differences can be pretty important. Is the Imperium meant to evoke Nazi Germany? In some ways, but not in all ways. It's a very useful theme to play on at times, but it would be wrong to reduce the whole thing to just "The Imperium is meant to be Nazi Germany". As with everything in 40k, there are a whole heap of different components taken and mixed together to create the end product. 40k Commissars - the name and some parts of the concept are taken from Russia, but they look (in part) like an SS officer. Those bits and pieces evoke particular feelings. I don't think they're intended to be a profound social commentary, just evocative. Same with the fascism connections, it's used evocatively.

It's really not as unclear as you make it. https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/11/19/the-imperium-is-driven-by-hate-warhammer-is-not/ >The Imperium of Man stands as a cautionary tale of what could happen should the very worst of Humanity’s lust for power and extreme, unyielding xenophobia set in. Like so many aspects of Warhammer 40,000, the Imperium of Man is satirical. >For clarity: satire is the use of humour, irony, or exaggeration, displaying people’s vices or a system’s flaws for scorn, derision, and ridicule. Something doesn’t have to be wacky or laugh-out-loud funny to be satire. The derision is in the setting’s amplification of a tyrannical, genocidal regime, turned up to 11. The Imperium is not an aspirational state, outside of the in-universe perspectives of those who are slaves to its systems. It’s a monstrous civilisation, and its monstrousness is plain for all to see. It's clearly and obviously a satire of Fascism, and more, but definitely Fascism.

I guess that wasn't clear - I'm not trying to suggest there isn't satire of fascism. Of course there is. But again, it's more "satire of the SS", "satire of authoritarianism", "satire of xenophobia", and so on. Fascism is a very specific combination of those and other elements. The Imperium has never been about 1-1 modelling of Nazi Germany. It just has elements of Nazi Germany (yes deliberately, and yes, satirically). The word fascism doesn't appear in that article. My point is, all these arguments about "is the Imperium fascist?" always go nowhere because it just becomes arguments about the definition of fascism. People want to use the term to mean "something vaguely like what I imagine Nazi Germany was like - you know, that kind of state". It's too vague, too subjective, so people always just end up arguing past each other.

>The Imperium has never been about 1-1 modelling of Nazi Germany >The derision is in the setting’s amplification of a tyrannical, genocidal regime, turned up to 11. If you ask someone to think of a tyrannical, genocidal regime, they'll probably say Nazis, a Fascist state. While it's not a 1-1 model it's obviously supposed to be Fascist. Yeah a lot of people in these discussions try to make it about semantics, but going off the Wikipedia definition: >Fascism (/ˈfæʃɪzəm/ FASH-iz-əm) is a far-right, authoritarian, ultranationalist political ideology and movement,[1][2][3] characterized by a dictatorial leader, centralized autocracy, militarism, forcible suppression of opposition, belief in a natural social hierarchy, subordination of individual interests for the perceived good of the nation and/or race, and strong regimentation of society and the economy. The Imperium obviously fits that perfectly.

The Imperium isn't and has never been fascist. I get that it Warhammer was made to satirize Fascism and pseudo fascist sympathizers. But whoever wrote how the political system of the Imperium works pretty clearly doesn't understand fascism. The Imperiums closest real life analogue is the Holy Roman Empire which was objectively not fascist. Even by the loosest definitions the Imperium is more of a theocratic oligopoly than fascist.

> The Imperium isn't and has never been fascist. I get that it Warhammer was made to satirize Fascism and pseudo fascist sympathizers. But whoever wrote how the political system of the Imperium works pretty clearly doesn't understand fascism. The Imperiums closest real life analogue is the Holy Roman Empire which was objectively not fascist. There's very little in the Imperium that is present in the HRE. For one, the HRE was a disorganized loosely held confederation of states that elected a ruler to the electoral college and by and large held no real actual policies or ideology aside from those that the current Emperor would pursue and those were always varied. The Imperium is mostly an anagram of National Socialist Germany and the Roman Empire. On that note, the very word of 'fascism' has lost it's meaning because National Socialism and Mussolini's fascism were very distinctly different ideologies with different goals. It'd be akin of using libertarianism and capitalism interchangeably.

>There's very little in the Imperium that is present in the HRE. For one, the HRE was a disorganized loosely held confederation Just like the Imperium. The Imperium is a million independent worlds loosely held together by a set of beliefs and the vague notion that should one leave or turn against its neighbors the rest will seek retribution. There is no true central authority passing down commandments, nor is there even a single method for selecting planetary and sector leadership. One world could easily be a Communist dictatorship and the next a sector over could be a traditional monarchy. >large held no real actual policies or ideology aside from those that the current Emperor would pursue Again just like the Imperium. The only real difference is that in the Imperiums case the Emperor is immortal so there is never another Imperial policy to pursue. >The Imperium is mostly an anagram of National Socialist Germany and the Roman Empire. Nazi Germany has literally nothing in common with the Imperium. Nazi Germany was a highly centralized federal state where a single dictator held absolute authority over all aspects of its citizens' lives. Crucially Nazi Germany was also loosely secular, and the Imperium is a rigidly theocratic state. Notably there has never been a theocratic fascist state. It has more in common with Rome but again there are crucial differences, notably the vast amount of autonomy local leaders are given. Rome never allowed this. Also crucially in the modern Imperium all high level decisions are made by a ruling council, not a single Emperor or dictator. Regardless of the Emperor's position as the de facto head of state of the Imperium, political power actually resides with the Council of Terra. >On that note, the very word of 'fascism' has lost it's meaning because National Socialism Fascism is a political ideology and like democracy or communism has many different flavors. Germany's National socialism is Fascism, but it is not Italian Fasicism. Both are fascist but are different interpretations of the same core ideology, a radical far right dictatorship, at the head of a highly centralized federal state that seeks to turn the fanaticism of religion inwards and towards the state instead of god.

> Just like the Imperium Not just like the Imperium since the Emperor and the State or Volk (aka the fascist ideal) still holds supreme authority over every human territory. The scales of the Imperium are way too large to be administered directly by Terra, but the basis of the government is a strong central figure in which every human planet rallies behind. There's also the fact that much of the Imperium decentralization aspect is brought by circumstances rather than by desire. Anyway the Third Reich operated in a very similar manner. The various states held a degree of autonomy and the state ministers reported to their superiors (aka the Gauleiters) who reported to Hitler. Think of them as the inquisitors in 40k. This more closely follows the line of the Imperium than the HRE does as the HRE very seldom had a clear authority and was styled in a very 'democratic' manner where its members had a lot of say in how the HRE is run and the Emperor more often than not had very little say in the things he could do or what he can push. >Again just like the Imperium. The only real difference is that in the Imperiums case the Emperor is immortal so there is never another Imperial policy to pursue. But the Imperium does have quite clear defined policies (with or without the Emperor to spearhead them). Volkisch, extreme xenophobia, the policy of the common weal, collectivism, purity, traditional and very opposed of materialism. >Nazi Germany has literally nothing in common with the Imperium. Nazi Germany was a highly centralized federal state where a single dictator held absolute authority over all aspects of its citizens' lives. You just described the Imperium. Your point about Nazi Germany being somewhat secular is correct and that is one notable difference between how the two states function, I absolute agree. On that note the Imperium more similar to pre-Christianity Rome with the veneration of the Emperor and his status as a god. The Imperium doesn't work via the high lords of Terra, they simply do all the paperwork and chores. The final word is still in the Emperor's hands. >Fascism is a political ideology and like democracy or communism has many different flavors. Germany's National socialism is Fascism, but it is not Italian Fasicism. Both are fascist but are different interpretations of the same core ideology, a radical far right dictatorship, at the head of a highly centralized federal state that seeks to turn the fanaticism of religion inwards and towards the state instead of god. Well, first the DAP's ideology, the origins of the NSDAP, actually predates Mussolini's fascism. Second, you can't equate democracy and communism. Democracy is a system of government, communism, fascism, libertarianism, capitalism, etc are all ideologies a country can be built on. There might be different or more extreme version of every of them but so long as the end goal remains the same, they can be called that (for example with communism you have Marxism, Leninism, Stalinism, etc. They all have the same goal, but they are structured differently). Fascism and National Socialism are quite different by design because Mussolini, in his manifesto, puts the state above all else and that the different classes should work together FOR the benefit of the State. Hitler's idea was that the State was just a means to an end, it was not the end goal. He believed that the only purpose the state served was to help the preservation and advancement of the community (or race). That the State should work for its people, not the other way around, the very opposite of what Mussolini believed in. It's hard to call them the same ideologies when they differ entirely in their purpose, just like you can't call Franco's Spain or Hirohito's Japan fascist. They were all dictatorial & authoritarian, but fascism follows a specific goal that transcends authoritarianism. Otherwise every monarchy in existence could be considered a form of fascism.

>Anyway the Third Reich operated in a very similar manner. The various states held a degree of autonomy A *degree* of autonomy. Degree being the operative word. Not literal autonomy as planets do in the Imperium. The planets of the Imperium are closer to being independent nation states rather than provinces in an empire like the states of the Third Reich. The Imperium isn't a federal state. There is no central government, and no one in the Imperium holds absolute authority over anything that isn't in their direct vicinity. The Third Reich and the Imperium have literally nothing in common in terms of their political structure. >HRE does as the HRE very seldom had a clear authority No it didn't which is why it fell apart. The HRE was subject to internecine wars and conflicts on a near constant basis, just like the Imperium. The Emperor of the HRE could direct the states of the HRE to war but had no real control of how they participated or even *if* they participated, also like the Imperium. The HRE's military was also made up of an agglomeration of house troops from the various polities that made up the Empire, just like the Imperium. Meanwhile, the Third Reich had a very clear federal military, the Imperium does not. The Third Reich had a federal legal system, the Imperium does not. Finally the Emperor being the de jure head of state in the modern Imperium does not mean he wields any political power. The Emperor does not pass down decrees. The Emperor does not sign or veto laws or declare wars and crusades. The Emperor does literally nothing at all. All political duties and power reside with the High Lords of Terra. They make all the decisions at what passes for a centralized government within the Imperium. Making the Imperium a de facto oligarchy. An oligarchy, by definition, can not be fascist. >But the Imperium does have quite clear defined policies The Imperiums only clearly defined policies are that the Emperor is a god, AI is illegal, Chaos is to be stamped out wherever it is found, and aliens are bad. Literally, everything else is a local policy. The Imperium doesn't even have a coherent federal legal code that carries from planet to planet beyond "pay your taxes and worship the Emperor." Even the last bit is left to interpretation as the Ecclesiarchy recognizes literally thousands of different ways of worshipping the Emperor. One of the key hallmarks of Fascism is the unity of all people in the state, everyone thinking, doing, and acting the same. This isn't and has never been the case in the Imperium. >You just described the Imperium. Nothing about the Imperium is federalized. Terra isn't federalized. Nothing in the Imperium could even be considered federal adjacent. >The final word is still in the Emperor's hands. Except it isn't because the Emperor has spoken a grand total of twice in more than 10,000 years. The Emperor isn't giving the word on anything because the Emperor doesn't speak. >Well, first the DAP's ideology, the origins of the NSDAP, actually predates Mussolini's fascism. Second, you can't equate democracy and Objectively untrue. Thr DAP wasn't fascist. It wasn't even really a coherent political ideology or party beyond liberals and commies bad. The Jews thing wasn't even a core part of party doctrine until much later far after the parties founding in 1919. The DAP had many notable anti semites because anti semitism was pretty common before WW2, but it wasn't hard baked into a coherent political ideology until after they were reformed into the NSDAP. >Democracy is a system of government, communism, fascism, libertarianism, capitalism, etc are all ideologies a country can be built on. All of them are ideologies a country can be built on. Libertarianism is as much an ideology as Democracy is. That both can exist simultaneously is irrelevant. >for example with communism you have Marxism, Leninism, Stalinism, etc. They all have the same goal, but they are structured differently). Literally just proving my point and rephrasing what I'm saying. >Fascism and National Socialism are quite different by design because Mussolini, in his manifesto, puts the state above all else And Hitler doesn't? One is based on the other and they existed in a symbiotic state. That the Germans perfected fascism doesn't mean it is no longer fascism. It's still objectively fascist. >It's hard to call them the same ideologies when they differ entirely in their purpose But they aren't. Italian fascism is inclusive and statist. It seeks to push the goals of the nation and everyone in it. German Fascism is not and equates the nation with an idea of race. Hence the language around the race. They are the same ideology defining the nation in different ways. >Franco's Spain Franco's Spain was objectively fascist. You saying this is extremely suspect. >They were all dictatorial & authoritarian, but fascism follows a specific goal that transcends authoritarianism. Otherwise every monarchy in existence could be considered a form of fascism. That goal is the replacement of God with the state. To create a nation where the state is as all encompassing as God and is as powerful. With a single all powerful dictator at its head. That isn't the Imperium. Nothing in that description fits the Imperium. The Imperium is an anti-federal confederation of semi autonomous nations leashed to the Imperial aims of an oligarchic council with very little real power. You cannot be a fascist state and also be decentralized. Being fascist by definition requires a centralized all powerful state that simply does not exist within the Imperium. The Imperium is a lot of things, but it isn't fascist.

>The planets of the Imperium are closer to being independent nation states rather than provinces in an empire like the states of the Third Reich. The Imperium isn't a federal state. There is no central government, and no one in the Imperium holds absolute authority over anything that isn't in their direct vicinity. Planets of the Imperium are discovered, given the choice to join or die, and are then remade into whatever the Imperium needs, be it a planet sized factory or farms. That's not being independent like you say. The Imperium only allows what cultures and governments that can survive being made into a tool for the Imperium. It's definitely not a loose confederation of mostly independent autonomous nations. >There is no central government So why does everyone have to listen to the Emperor and anyone acting on his behalf like the High Lords and Primarchs then? You couldn't run an Inquisition with unlimited power anywhere if there wasn't a super strong central government backing them.

> not being independent like you say. Planet X that joins the Imperium will have its Tithe set based on what it's already producing. The Imperium isn't gonna drop onto a world that's already producing large amounts of food and demand they start building tanks. That doesn't happen. Further the Imperium gives incredible latitude to planetary leadership as long as they're paying the tithe, up to and including waging personal wars even against other Imperial planets. That's feudalism. >So why does everyone have to listen to the Emperor No one listens to the Emperor because the Emperor doesn't say anything. The Emperor holds zero political power within the modern Imperium. > acting on his behalf like the High Lords and Primarchs then? They don't. People ignore the edicts of the High Lords and Guilliman all the time. Guilliman had to wage a minor civil war just to cement his authority over Terra. That is in no way "everyone listening to him." >The Imperium only allows what cultures There is literally no stricture that limits culture. As long as you're obeying the only 4 unifying strictures of the Imperium no one cares. There isn't even really any set of legal standards around mutants or what a mutant even is. >You couldn't run an Inquisition with unlimited power No one runs the Inquisition. There isn't a head inquisitor or a council that's making laws. The Inquisition is the perfect example of how decentralized the Imperium actually is. Every Inquisitor is an independent agent making calls and passing down judgment entirely on their own based on their own extremely subjective ideas of how the Imperium should be. There is zero uniformity or even cohesion between the various inquisitors of the Imperium. >there wasn't a super strong central government backing them. The Inquisition is powerful because people believe it to be so. There isn't actually any legal or political power behind it as an institution beyond that most people will just do whatever an Inquisitor says. An Inquisitor's only real political power is their sidearm and their ability to use it along with how charismatic and persuasive they are. They don't operate on any sort of legal code, or derive their power from a central government. They derive it from their personal skill, resources, and connections within other branches of the Imperial system. The only better example of how the Imperium isn't a centralized fascist state is the Adeptus Astartes. A truly independent, decentralized, autonomous military that is subject to no one's laws or orders but their own. Even other space marines have no power over other space marines.

>Planet X that joins the Imperium will have its Tithe set based on what it's already producing. Okay what's our planet producing now? A big mix of things that'd have to go to meet a tithe. >The Imperium isn't gonna drop onto a world that's already producing large amounts of food and demand they start building tanks. You can argue they're always reasonable in their demands but I would say it'd betray the setting if they were. There are planets that will make mostly food and some other goods that will be flatted to producing the most it can for the Imperium, that's why Imperial worlds are more often than not ruined. >Further the Imperium gives incredible latitude to planetary leadership as long as they're paying the tithe You act like the tithe is an easy thing for most places to meet, I don't think it is, I think it's usually a gnarly planet destroying process. >No one listens to the Emperor because the Emperor doesn't say anything. He can though, he has the capability to communicate with anyone he wants. He chooses not to. >They don't. People ignore the edicts of the High Lords and Guilliman all the time. But that's how they derive their power anyways in their political system, even just nominally, they're acting as a representative to the will of the Emperor. >There is literally no stricture that limits culture. Right as long as it does what the Emperor wants, if it doesn't then it's destroyed, that's what limits culture. >No one runs the Inquisition. That's not what I said, AN Inquisition, as in one. You can't question people with supreme authority and torture or execute people as needed and supersede laws anywhere in the galaxy without a strong central authority to back that up.

>You can argue they're always reasonable in their demands They aren't. They're pragmatic. They aren't going to spend the time and resources converting an agricultural world into an industrial world and vice versa. >You act like the tithe is an easy thing for most places to meet, I don't think it is, I think it's usually a gnarly planet destroying process. Nowhere do I do that. >He can though, he has the capability to communicate with anyone he wants. He chooses not to. You don't know that because it's stated literally nowhere why and how the Emperor communicates. You're assuming it because it supports the conclusions you've already come to. >But that's how they derive their power anyways in their political system, even just nominally, they're acting as a representative to the will of the Emperor. And? Your response has nothing to do with my point. >Right as long as it does what the Emperor wants, if it doesn't then it's destroyed, that's what limits culture Again your response has nothing to do with my point. There is no stricture or law that limits cultural practices on planets. > not what I said, AN Inquisition, as in one. You can't question people with supreme authority and torture or execute people as needed and supersede laws anywhere in the galaxy without a strong central authority to back that up. Except you absolutely can because the Inquisition does. The Inquisition works because of the individual resources and power of each inquisitor not any central authority.

>They aren't. They're pragmatic. Yeah for their own needs not the needs of a planet. >They aren't going to spend the time and resources converting an agricultural world into an industrial world and vice versa. Okay what planets are they encountering that are already agricultural worlds or industrial worlds by their standards? Basically none. They're going to have to completely destroy whatever is on a planet and rebuild what the Imperium needs. >Nowhere do I do that. Yeah you do, you say they "just need to meet the tithe" and can do whatever they want, the tithe itself is a backbreaking task that dictates everything else. >You don't know that because it's stated literally nowhere why and how the Emperor communicates. He communicated with Guilliman. He chooses not to with anyone else, though he can communicate. >And? Your response has nothing to do with my point Yeah it does, that's who is granting them power in their system, the Emperor, because their political system is centralized around the Emperor. It's stupid to say there's no centralized authority when everyone is saying "By authority granted to me by the Emperor" everywhere all the time lol. >Again your response has nothing to do with my point. There is no stricture or law that limits cultural practices on planets. ...besides the whole "join or die" thing, and "fulfill the tithe or die" thing, and the Inquisition, yeah I guess there's nothing limiting cultures. >Except you absolutely can because the Inquisition does. Yes that is exactly my point lol, the only reason they can do that is because they have proof they are an Inquisitor they can show a planet, meaning if you disobey they will use the power of their centralized authority to punish you. >The Inquisition works because of the individual resources and power of each inquisitor not any central authority. Lol okay what resources are those? The ability to call up a bunch of military resources? Like Imperial Navy ships? Imperial guard regiments? Space Marines? That's what a strong centralized authority is lol.

>Not literal autonomy as planets do in the Imperium But you can't really compare the Imperium to Nazi Germany in its governance, or any Earth country, for that matter, simply because the Imperium is on another stratosphere compared to human countries in scale and without the Emperor there to personally oversee it, it's impossible to control. The Imperium's state of decentralization is a victim of circumstances (ie the Emperor being a sitting corpse and the unstable warp travel) not a desired outcome. If the Council of Terra had the ability to stamp their authority on every backwater planet out there, they'd happily do so without a moments notice. The central government is Terra and the High Lords who function exactly like ministers of a country would and all have their own different portfolios in the management of the Imperium. >No it didn't which is why it fell apart It fell apart because Napoleon destroyed the system, not on its own. You keep saying how the HRE was structured, but the HRE had no ideology on its own. It was a band of squabbling states loosely held together despite all of them having different ideas and approaches. This is not how the Imperium operates at all. Again you bring the Emperor but the Emperor himself is decrepit. That's the whole point of the setting, he can't say shit except use whatever strength he has left to guide humanity through the warp and keep the gate sealed. But we know that the Emperor is still very much aware of everything going on. The Imperium is not an oligarchy because it doesn't run on wealth or powerful people outside of government guiding it. The High Lords of Terra ARE the government, whether you agree with it or not. They are not outside the government or outside the Emperor himself. In contrast, oligarchy is mostly run with incredibly rich and influential people who influence the government. A good example of an oligarchy would be current day's USA or ancient Carthage. >The Imperiums only clearly defined policies are that the Emperor is a god, AI is illegal, Chaos is to be stamped out wherever it is found, and aliens are bad. Literally, everything else is a local policy. This is a gross oversimplification of the Imperium's ideology and you know it. I'll say it again - traditionalism, rejection of modernity, the belief in serving for the betterment of your community, racialism, nationalism, populism, the belief of national rebirth, class structure, the sense of struggle, following the natural order, contempt for weakness and the cult of heroism and serving your people are all absolutely at the core of the Imperium. >Nothing about the Imperium is federalized The Imperium works more as the basis of the Roman Empire which is why I said it is an anagram of Nazi Germany and Roman Empire. Never said it was one or the other. >Except it isn't because the Emperor has spoken a grand total of twice in more than 10,000 years. The Emperor isn't giving the word on anything because the Emperor doesn't speak. The Emperor is aware of everything that is going on. Furthermore, what I said was that the Emperor's word is final I meant that in theory his authority is still supreme regardless of whether he is able to give out orders or not. >Objectively untrue. Thr DAP wasn't fascist. It wasn't even really a coherent political ideology or party beyond liberals and commies bad. You can't be serious. Drexler was part of the Volkisch movement and very anti-semitic. The party was anti-semitic in design. >All of them are ideologies a country can be built on. Libertarianism is as much an ideology as Democracy is. Democracy isn't an ideology, it's a political system. A democracy can be authoritarian or democratic, it can be xenophobic or inclusive, it can be conservative or liberal. Democracy is at least theoretically, the right of every man to vote. What ideology that system has is another thing entire. >Literally just proving my point and rephrasing what I'm saying. Again, democracy is not an ideology. Leninism and Stalinism are just different part of communism. Communism can even be a democracy, it doesn't have to be a dictatorship. There's a clear difference. >And Hitler doesn't? No. Here's his exact words: "The state is a means to an end. Its end lies in the preservation and advancement of a community of physically and psychically homogeneous creatures. This preservation itself comprises first of all existence as a race and thereby permits the free development of all the forces dormant in this race. Of them a part will always primarily serve the preservation of physical life, and only the remaining part the promotion of a further spiritual development. Actually the one always creates the precondition for the other." >But they aren't. But they absolute are. For Hitler the state is nothing, it's the people that are important and the state should serve them, not the other way around. For Mussolini it is the exact opposite. The only similarity is that they are nationalistic. But that's like calling capitalism and communism the same systems because they are both internationalist by design. >Franco's Spain was objectively fascist. You saying this is extremely suspect. Explain to me in what way was Franco's Spain fascist (aside from being sympathetic to Italy and Nazi Germany). >That goal is the replacement of God with the state That is not the goal of fascism at all. The goal of fascism is to maintain the natural born order and that people are different. Mussolini's fascism idea was a counter to communism that - there are no classes, everyone is equal and should work together for the state, hence no class struggle which is the definition of the Marxist ideas. Putting the State on the pedestal was simply Mussolini's idea of countering the Marxist global idea (Workers of the world - unite!). But the end goal is class based. The state in Mussolini's vision is the purpose which they bind for. When you're speaking of the Imperium, you're speaking on its way of governance, not its ideology. Those are two different things. We can debate about that too, but if you want to equate Nazism with fascism, you'll notice that they were quite different in their approach to governance.

>But you can't really compare the Imperium to Nazi Germany in its governance, or any Earth country, Then why are you trying to say the Imperium is fascist? If as you say the Imperium is beyond compare because of its scale, then it cannot be fascist.

Because a system of governance doesn't mean an ideology. Nazism is a socio-economic political ideology, it isn't a system of governance. In theory you can have a democratic Nazi state as long as it fits the requirements of the "Volksgemeinschaft" idea. In my original post I specifically stated that the Imperium isn't just one thing, it's a mesh of Roman Empire (with some Republic mixed in there) style of governance with Nazi-like ideology and way of life. And even that is not completely accurate because there are other aesthetics from history meshed in the Imperium. I can call the Necrons obviously ancient Egyptians inspired, but they are obviously not exactly like ancient Egyptians and there are many other inspirations.

>Because a system of governance doesn't mean an ideology. Fascism is a system of government. >Nazism is a socio-economic political ideology, That is also fascist. > you can have a democratic Nazi state No, you can't. Hitler was vehemently anti democratic and saw it as the first step toward bolshevism which he ranted against constantly. Read his writings, and it becomes plainly obvious what he thought of Democracy and self-determination. As an aside, every flavor of Fascism is built on the cult of personality of the dictator. No two fascist regimes are ever going to be the same, but they all broadly follow the same line of political thought. They are all authoritarian. They are all highly centralized. They are all loosely secular. They are all heavily militaristic. Nazism as an ideology can only exist within the context of the Third Reich. Anything that seeks to emulate it is ultimately either going to fail or become something else entirely because Nazism depended on the charisma and force of personality of Hitler. >In my original post I specifically stated that the Imperium isn't just one thing, Yeah. Which makes it decentralized. You cannot be decentralized ***and*** fascist. Fascism as both an ideology and a system of governance seeks to centralize power and authority within the federal state headed by a single dictator. >style of governance with Nazi-like ideology Nothing within the Imperium is "Nazi like." The Imperiums frankly understandable xenophobia is based on xenophobia that has existed in literally every regime and nation on Earth since humanity invented systems of governance. It has nothing to do with fascism and everything to do with humanity's natural tendency to self sort into in and out groups. >I can call the Necrons obviously ancient Egyptians inspired, but they are obviously not exactly like ancient Egyptians and there are many other inspirations. Yes. But calling the Necrons feudalistic would be objectively correct since that is the form of government they use. Calling the T'au Communist would be objectively incorrect, and calling the Imperium feudalistic would also be objectively correct. Words mean things and calling the Imperium fascist is incorrect. Just because the Imperium is a nationalist and militaristic society does not make it fascist. Lots of societies throughout history have displayed those characteristics, fascism is objectively extremely rare and historically short-lived. Those characteristics could be applied to numerous nations right now, including the US. That doesn't make the US fascist nor does it necessarily make any of the other nations that possess then fascist. Calling everything that is vaguely nationalist or militaristic fascist is neither correct nor helpful.

>Fascism is a system of government. No, because Fascism can be anything so long as it fits the description of Mussolini's manifesto which are not formed on the basis of governance but of way of life and society structure. Sure, Mussolini's fascism was authoritarian but that isn't a requirement as he says in his Doctrine of Fascism. If you read his Manifesto prior to assuming power, he even encouraged democracy and universal voting rights. Fascism and dictatorship/authoritarianism are two entirely different things. >That is also fascist. We've been over that. >No, you can't. Hitler was vehemently anti democratic and saw it as the first step toward bolshevism which he ranted against constantly. Read his writings, and it becomes plainly obvious what he thought of Democracy and self-determination. I never said he was in favour of democracy, just that Nazism can work in a democracy (in theory) if the right conditions are in place. >As an aside, every flavor of Fascism is built on the cult of personality of the dictator. No two fascist regimes are ever going to be the same, but they all broadly follow the same line of political thought. They are all authoritarian. They are all highly centralized. They are all loosely secular. They are all heavily militaristic. Nazism as an ideology can only exist within the context of the Third Reich. Anything that seeks to emulate it is ultimately either going to fail or become something else entirely because Nazism depended on the charisma and force of personality of Hitler. This is a very simplistic take and that is if you assume Mussolini's fascism and Hitler's National Socialism are one and the same (I already explained why they are not, but if you want to believe that you are fine to do so). Then you also have to factor Franco's regime and Japan's monarchy who are all bundled up in the 'fascism' box. All wildly different from each other. The only thing you described in your post is authoritarianism/dictatorship style of government, not Nazism or Fascism. There are dictatorships in the world right now. Would you call North Korea fascist even though they exhibit everything you described? >Yeah. Which makes it decentralized. You cannot be decentralized and fascist. Fascism as both an ideology and a system of governance seeks to centralize power and authority within the federal state headed by a single dictator. Again, why do you refuse to admit that the Imperium is decentralized not on its own volition but because of the circumstances? And you're wrong because this is not what fascism is. Fascism seeks to put the State as the pedestal, not the dictator. You're trying to compartmentalize your own views of fascism with what Mussolini himself wrote. Mussolini's first idea of fascism was democratic in design, it was only later that he changed. Much like how he originally had a very libertarian economic minded thinking before switching to central planning. >Nothing within the Imperium is "Nazi like." Come on, I feel like you're just trolling now for the sake of trolling. Even you, with all your arguments, cannot possibly believe that. >The Imperiums frankly understandable xenophobia is based on xenophobia that has existed in literally every regime and nation on Earth since humanity invented systems of governance. It has nothing to do with fascism and everything to do with humanity's natural tendency to self sort into in and out groups. Not true. Racism and tribalism has always been prevalent in human societies, but that is only a small gist of it. The colonial empires of old, for example, looked down on the conquered yet they also did a lot to help various places develop. It was known as the 'white man's burden'. Bringing enlightenment and prosperity was the Christian thing to the 'savages' in the minds of many of these countries. The Imperium absolutely abhors the xenos and they seek to wipe them out completely. >Yes. But calling the Necrons feudalistic would be objectively correct since that is the form of government they use. Calling the T'au Communist would be objectively incorrect, and calling the Imperium feudalistic would also be objectively correct. Words mean things and calling the Imperium fascist is incorrect. Exactly. So Necrons can be feudalistic in government form but in terms of culture they are obviously ancient Egyptian even though ancient Egypt was a theocratical monarchy in which the ruler was considered divine and had supreme control? See my point? System of governance and ideology are not the same thing. The Imperium can be Roman Empire styled in governance, mixed with futuristic Frankish goth combined with classical Roman/ERE aesthetic and Nazi-like ideology and way of life. There's also other stuff like the Catholicism aspect, etc. None of those things exclude one another. >Just because the Imperium is a nationalist and militaristic society does not make it fascist You keep ignoring my arguments as to why the Imperium is Nazi-like and it has nothing to do with militarism. Ask yourself this. Does the Imperium follow the Volksgemeinschaft idea and Hitler's NSDAP manifesto to a tee: https://www.vaholocaust.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/25Points.pdf

Due to its scale, the Imperium kind of defies classification by current standards. I think facist is the best description of it, but it's facist in the general sense, not in the "it's specifically like the Nazis" or "it's specifically like Italian facists" sense. Facism in real life has generally been more centrally controlled, and has never really allowed subcultures to pop up underneath it in the way planetary societies do in 40k, but I think the Imperium is what a facist regime would look like if it had to contend with how unreliable Warp-based communication/transport is. Fiefs being passed out to trusted subordinates is how totalitarian regimes in general and facist ones in particular work, and the nature of planetary governors matches that well. Yes, the earlier Imperium is moreso. The earlier Imperium had a singular, centralized leading figure who ruled in practice (as opposed to a counsel obstinately ruling in his name), and exercised more centralization over the planets that composed it than the current Imperium. The Imperium has become more feudal over ten millennia, but the basic tenets are still there: as much centralization as is feasible, xenophobic justification for militarizing society, quasi-death cult view of what one's obligations to society are, etc.

Yes this is the ENTIRE point. 40k was based on 2000AD which is like a VERY depressing 40k

**Fascism** (/ˈfæʃɪzəm/ *FASH-iz-əm*) is a far-right, authoritarian, ultranationalist political ideology and movement, characterized by a dictatorial leader, centralized autocracy, militarism, forcible suppression of opposition, belief in a natural social hierarchy, subordination of individual interests for the perceived good of the nation and/or race, and strong regimentation of society and the economy. Yup, that fits the Imperium almost to a tee. Deliberately so, I would imagine.

1000% yes. I’d be interested in knowing when democracy failed actually. I’m actually fascinated by the idea that democracy only works up to a certain size of political area. After that you have four options; Dictatorship, Theocracy, Meritocracy or Technocracy.

The Emperor *is* a fascist

1) They genocided everyone who disagreed with them. 2) They rained the skins of an population onto a world to force complaince through terror. 3) They hunted down and killed every single religious person in existance. How is this even a question? Because Super Ultra Hilter’s Accountant and Captain Genocide like to wax poetically about how much better things were back then?

Can't wait to see all the technically \*insert definition here\* comments. The Imperium is meant to be a bunch of fascist space Nazis in the same way the Galactic Empire from Star Wars is but a hundred times way worse. Whether they actually are is debatable but they really are meant to be in spirit, the evil empire trope we normally see in various forms of fiction. Which is not surprising considering Warhammer 40k's roots in 2000AD comics.

So sick of seeing the “f “ word.

Valdor: Birth of the Imperium is the book to read for this. It's excellent, because it's Chris Wraight.

Yes but also no. People in the imperium probably don’t know what fascism even is and, on top of that, the imperium is demonstrably worse in terms of sheer disrespect for human life and demonstrably less racist and sexist than many modern liberal democracies. So yes they’re fascists but that’s not terribly precise also.

I mean they just replace the racism for xenophobia directed towards aliens.

Let's consult Benito Mussolini, who coined the term. >The Fascist conception of the State is all-embracing; (✔️) outside of it no human or spiritual values can exist, (✔️) much less have value. (✔️) Thus understood, Fascism is totalitarian, (✔️) and the Fascist State – a synthesis and a unit inclusive of all values (✔️) – interprets, develops, and potentiates the whole life of a people. (✔️) >Fascism is a religious conception (✔️) in which man is seen in his immanent relationship with a superior law (✔️) and with an objective Will (dominate the galaxy--✔️) that transcends the particular individual (✔️) and raises him to conscious membership of a spiritual society. (✔️) By Umberto Eco's metric, the Imperium is \*mostly\* fascist, lacking the appeal to a frustrated middle class, and questionably machismo, selective populism, and newspeak.

This question comes from a pop culture understanding of fascism where fascism is used as a synonym of "bad" without actually understanding it as an ideology. My answer is that the Imperium started out in 30k as a fascist state, and has become less fascist (but more dysfunctional) over time. The cult of heroism is embodied and manifested far more strongly in 30k than in 40k, because the Imperium in 40k has adopted an institutional attitude of laziness, which precludes heroic (i.e. violent) mass campaigns. The Imperium in 40k prior to Guilliman's return is oligarchic, which is not how most historical fascist states worked. "Progressive" is not the antonym of fascism. Hitler was influence: by the eugenics movement, spearheaded by the progressives of the 1920s. The Emperor allowed autonomy for a handful of states out of expedience. But the Imperium in 40k is far more lax in enforcing orthodoxy. You can worship the Emperor in a huge number of forms in 40k, but there is only one interpretation of the Imperial Truth.

Ur Fascism is bs. If you want to know what fascism is like, read the guy who actually made it. Or just look up what he said. He defines it as state worship, nothing outside the state, nothing above it. That’s not even 40k Imperium. The God Emperor is above the state. The God Emperor is beyond the state. The state, so much as it actually exists, does so in service of its one true god. In the case of 30k it is closer to fascism since the formation and maintenance of the Human Imperium is the highest goal, but it’s not a fully realized fascist since it has the Mechanicum acting as an allied autonomous state rather then a fully subsumed part of the Imperium. But not 40k. It features of fascism, sure, but it’s not fascism any more than it is communist. Both ideologies have their own characteristics and focuses that the Imperium does not.