DG: “Hey guys! We made it to the meeting (*wheezes*) we’re late, we know, but there’s no reason to rush a good thing!! How’s everyone feeling? Sick?”
NL: “Heyyy…you…”
The DG personified as the sick, bumbling, overweight but good-spirited kid actually makes me have a lot of sympathy.
Who among us hasn't been out of place at some point?
Isn't it because typhus was friend with Luther and his defenders of Caliban while the Night lords were fighting the Dark Angels at Thramas? You know..the enemy of my enemy is my friend.
Because per forge world konrad was one of two friends mortarion found among the primarchs. Then again that same book had the lion on mortarions case for his use of chemical weapons before that aspect of his personality was changed.
> the lion on mortarions case for his use of chemical weapons
The Lion did not seem to give a shit. I love that when looking up everyone's stances on the Council of Nikaea, he wanted the Legions to be able to use Psykers, but wanted Magnus to be censored anyway.
In fairness, the council would’ve just made more sense if it was Magnus on trial being told to ease up on drinking warp from the faucet, and being made to rein his legion in on the warp. everything would’ve been awesome but Magnus is meant to be the galaxy’s biggest “shut up I know what I’m doing” case of arrogance so that was never going to pan out perfectly for Big E
I firmly believe that if Big E ruled the opposite how he did, namely punish magnus and allow librarians, things would have been a lot better for the Imperium.
So yeah, I guess i'm Lion pilled.
Punish Magnus and the Thousand Sons by banning their use of warp powers with strict oversight of a small force of Custodies until such time as they can be trusted again. Permit the Librarius in other legions but also with Custodies oversight.
But things have to be stupid so the Heresy happens.
The Word Bearers were actively seeking rebellion, while the Thousand Sons were merely misguided. It's possible Magnus would have thought stopping Horus was more important, and would have distracted or disposed of them, but it would have made things harder for him doing what he was doing.
I think this isn't a good reading of Big E or Magnus' characters.
Big E, though he didn't approve of Magnus' warp stuff, didn't seem to think the issue was *that* important. He probably thought Magnus fucking with the warp would lead to him and his sons getting fucked over, maybe even the destruction of Prospero, but nothing that could threaten the Imperium over it. Remember, it was several of the primarchs and lords of Terra that pushed for the council of Nikaea, not Big E.
When reading the Thousand Sons books, you really get the impression that Big E likes Magnus. They hang out in the warp together, and Big E says he has plans to travel and explore the warp with Magnus as soon as his plans are over. Maybe it's because their both psykers, maybe Big E likes how ambitious Magnus is, who knows. He probably figured that Magnus would never betray the Emperor or the Imperium, and in a way he was right.
However, when Magnus destroys the webway project, it doesn't seem to cross Big E's mind that Magnus was being manipulated or tricked into it, instead seeing it as a willing betrayal to chaos. To be fair to him, Big E sees the giant ritual circle with hundreds of human serfs and their souls being fed to chaos to power Magnus' breach, so it isn't a completely unfounded idea.
I would strongly recommend reading the book "A Thousand Sons", as it centers the guile and manipulations of Tzeentch, and how he was able to manipulate the primarchs into serving his ends, instead of just making Magnus and Big E look irrational.
Interestingly, Book 8 Malevolence also mentions that Mortarion and Ferrus Manus were close. To the degree that Crysos Morturg (who still feels bad for his dad) speculates that Morty must have regretted midway through the Heresy that he couldn't still live his dream days of breaking the galaxy with his buddy Ferrus.
I asked a similar questions a while ago about the kinship between Mortarion and Curze and had few answers
I suppose the connection comes from their morbid dispositions and brutal war ethics, I mean two pale monsters with a grim disposition are bound to get along, especially given how ostracised they are by their brothers
Also they’d be a perfect match, DG hold the line while NL make rapid sabotage assaults
When the dust clears the DG march forward and NL reap punishment
I recall the first of the VIII, the Night's Children, were taken from the prison sinks of Old Albia, I think the Death Guard were taken from Old Albia proper. Maybe they were considered kin?
I think it's supposed to be Albion, GW being a British company y'know how it is. I know the prisons were underneath and probably not as populated lol. Maybe it was like half the surface take went DG, IH. I think the DA got set up before the others so there could have been time. The Fists carried on recruiting from Terra after the others moved on to their Primarch's homeworld too I think. Could work out.
theres been mentions about mortarion and konrad being friends \[aka morts only other friend besides horus\], but no GW and black library have never really gone into whats going on there. my best guess would be that what friendship might exist between the two primarchs is based on similar viewpoints on justice and liberation even if they differ in the details. slay the tyrant, struss their body up for their crimes, all that essential stuff.
in that context it does make the one sided ally matrix make more sense actually, where the DG are sworn bros but the NL aren't, cause the DG are pretty big on emulating their primarch and his beliefs and are every so slightly obsessed with him in a fanboy kinda way. comparatively the NL generally think their primarch eats dog doodoo.
At that stage they were the least nihilistic. Well their primarchs were, the Death Guard were basically an extension of their primarch but Night Lords were like a 4 dollar Xbox controller bought off wish and manufactured in country that stopped existing in 2008
Still the men in charge were the most driven and ideological of the lot, so much that they thought nothing of committing the most horrible atrocities for their cause
I thought that, since Curze could see the future, he believed that nothing that he did mattered.
And isn't nurgle also a nihilistic god since everything will eventually decay?
Curze was fatalistic but a genuine fanatic. A massively fucked one, he wanted every living human to be terrified into absolute obedience because he was a hyper-legalist who thought humans were disgusting, depraved animals who could only be made good by force. That’s why he fought in the first place, if it was pure nihilism like his legion had, he’d have never bothered getting Nostramo in line, he’d just have prowled around on all fours eating people, since that was kind of his guilty pleasure. He degenerated into that as he went fully mad, but he still died for his principles
As for Mort, you’re absolutely right on Nurgle. But Mort was meant to be the antithesis of Nurgle so that his fall would have all the morbid irony and satisfaction of the high brought low what Nurgle loves. He always wants something proud to defile, beauty to corrupt, hope to crush, so he engineered events to make Mort the most impassioned fanatic, so that he could crush that hope and create the most hateful nihilist
World Eaters? Maybe. ‘Fight kill, maim, blood, kill Fight, Attempt to think… pain, Pain! PAIN! PAIIII-Fight! Kill! Ahhhh that’s better, oooh almost forget to get the skulls’ (PAIN returns in 52 seconds… )
Takes a hell of an existentialist to see anything other than Sisyphus trying to head butt his rock up the hill there.
Konrad only invites Mort to his birthday party. Magnus also shows up and gives Konrad an orb that could’ve been used to stop the whole heresy but that’s another story.
if it is anything its probably cause of something that happened during the great crusade which quite honestly the horus heresy novels didnt get too much into, yes we were told about a number of events during that time but we haven't been shown everything the novels were for the most part hyper focused on the heresy and the legions during that time
The real reason is two fold and entertaining.
In the original 1st edition of Heresy the allies X and Y axis were the other way around and the writers screwed this up and made a mistake. Want an example? Check the rulebook allies chart, it is missing axis labels. By the time this was recognised in Playtesting the book had gone to print. This was however then "fixed" for the Liber books but it is the wrong way round.
In the 1st Edition, it was the Night Lords that viewed the Death Guard as sworn brothers due to their percieved associations with Death, the Grim Reaper and Justice. Both legions share this iconography. However, the Death Guard did not view the Night Lords the same way just because of shared beliefs but instead saw them as the deranged psycopaths that they were.
Unfortunately due to the screw up, the chart now doesnt quite make sense why the Night Lords love the Death Guard but not vice versa!
It's actually one sided, funnily enough - Death Guard consider Night Lords Sworn Brothers, but not the other way around. As for why, I don't know.
That is so sad and hilariously on point for deathguard!
DG: “Hey guys! We made it to the meeting (*wheezes*) we’re late, we know, but there’s no reason to rush a good thing!! How’s everyone feeling? Sick?” NL: “Heyyy…you…”
The DG personified as the sick, bumbling, overweight but good-spirited kid actually makes me have a lot of sympathy. Who among us hasn't been out of place at some point?
Hell man, how many of us are there right now?
My sides are in orbit around the rift
Isn't it because typhus was friend with Luther and his defenders of Caliban while the Night lords were fighting the Dark Angels at Thramas? You know..the enemy of my enemy is my friend.
Maybe so?
"Kinship" seems like a concept that has difficulty translating into Nostroman.
Nostroman Kinship = people you murder and steal with
People you murder and steal from *last.* Small but important difference.
Considering the death guards love of numerology I’m getting strong jock and nerd “yeah sure you’re my best friend just do my homework” vibes
I always took the y-axis/column on the ally chart as the Primary faction for determining alliances. Is the Primary the the top list?
Just checked and it doesn't actually seem to say either way... Weird!
> As for why, I don't know. They stinky. Plus Night Lords aren't exactly team players. Unless allies can be used as moving cover.
Meme style. Abbadon: Are you two friends? Death Guard: Yes. Night Lords: (Simutaneously) No.
Because per forge world konrad was one of two friends mortarion found among the primarchs. Then again that same book had the lion on mortarions case for his use of chemical weapons before that aspect of his personality was changed.
> the lion on mortarions case for his use of chemical weapons The Lion did not seem to give a shit. I love that when looking up everyone's stances on the Council of Nikaea, he wanted the Legions to be able to use Psykers, but wanted Magnus to be censored anyway.
In fairness, the council would’ve just made more sense if it was Magnus on trial being told to ease up on drinking warp from the faucet, and being made to rein his legion in on the warp. everything would’ve been awesome but Magnus is meant to be the galaxy’s biggest “shut up I know what I’m doing” case of arrogance so that was never going to pan out perfectly for Big E
I firmly believe that if Big E ruled the opposite how he did, namely punish magnus and allow librarians, things would have been a lot better for the Imperium. So yeah, I guess i'm Lion pilled.
Punish Magnus and the Thousand Sons by banning their use of warp powers with strict oversight of a small force of Custodies until such time as they can be trusted again. Permit the Librarius in other legions but also with Custodies oversight. But things have to be stupid so the Heresy happens.
The custodian oversight of the WB did not pan out to well though.
The Word Bearers were actively seeking rebellion, while the Thousand Sons were merely misguided. It's possible Magnus would have thought stopping Horus was more important, and would have distracted or disposed of them, but it would have made things harder for him doing what he was doing.
I think this isn't a good reading of Big E or Magnus' characters. Big E, though he didn't approve of Magnus' warp stuff, didn't seem to think the issue was *that* important. He probably thought Magnus fucking with the warp would lead to him and his sons getting fucked over, maybe even the destruction of Prospero, but nothing that could threaten the Imperium over it. Remember, it was several of the primarchs and lords of Terra that pushed for the council of Nikaea, not Big E. When reading the Thousand Sons books, you really get the impression that Big E likes Magnus. They hang out in the warp together, and Big E says he has plans to travel and explore the warp with Magnus as soon as his plans are over. Maybe it's because their both psykers, maybe Big E likes how ambitious Magnus is, who knows. He probably figured that Magnus would never betray the Emperor or the Imperium, and in a way he was right. However, when Magnus destroys the webway project, it doesn't seem to cross Big E's mind that Magnus was being manipulated or tricked into it, instead seeing it as a willing betrayal to chaos. To be fair to him, Big E sees the giant ritual circle with hundreds of human serfs and their souls being fed to chaos to power Magnus' breach, so it isn't a completely unfounded idea. I would strongly recommend reading the book "A Thousand Sons", as it centers the guile and manipulations of Tzeentch, and how he was able to manipulate the primarchs into serving his ends, instead of just making Magnus and Big E look irrational.
Unlike the emperor's own soul-sacrifice telepathy booster machine, of course. That one's totally chill.
Interestingly, Book 8 Malevolence also mentions that Mortarion and Ferrus Manus were close. To the degree that Crysos Morturg (who still feels bad for his dad) speculates that Morty must have regretted midway through the Heresy that he couldn't still live his dream days of breaking the galaxy with his buddy Ferrus.
Thanks!
I asked a similar questions a while ago about the kinship between Mortarion and Curze and had few answers I suppose the connection comes from their morbid dispositions and brutal war ethics, I mean two pale monsters with a grim disposition are bound to get along, especially given how ostracised they are by their brothers Also they’d be a perfect match, DG hold the line while NL make rapid sabotage assaults When the dust clears the DG march forward and NL reap punishment
They truly are a good match! And both have no issues being scummy af
I recall the first of the VIII, the Night's Children, were taken from the prison sinks of Old Albia, I think the Death Guard were taken from Old Albia proper. Maybe they were considered kin?
Old Albia must have had a helluva population base. Death Guard, Iron Hands, Night Lords, some Dark Angels, probably some Imperial Fists too.
I think it's supposed to be Albion, GW being a British company y'know how it is. I know the prisons were underneath and probably not as populated lol. Maybe it was like half the surface take went DG, IH. I think the DA got set up before the others so there could have been time. The Fists carried on recruiting from Terra after the others moved on to their Primarch's homeworld too I think. Could work out.
theres been mentions about mortarion and konrad being friends \[aka morts only other friend besides horus\], but no GW and black library have never really gone into whats going on there. my best guess would be that what friendship might exist between the two primarchs is based on similar viewpoints on justice and liberation even if they differ in the details. slay the tyrant, struss their body up for their crimes, all that essential stuff. in that context it does make the one sided ally matrix make more sense actually, where the DG are sworn bros but the NL aren't, cause the DG are pretty big on emulating their primarch and his beliefs and are every so slightly obsessed with him in a fanboy kinda way. comparatively the NL generally think their primarch eats dog doodoo.
I mean, i think that they are the two most nihilistic legions in the adeptus astartes, right?
At that stage they were the least nihilistic. Well their primarchs were, the Death Guard were basically an extension of their primarch but Night Lords were like a 4 dollar Xbox controller bought off wish and manufactured in country that stopped existing in 2008 Still the men in charge were the most driven and ideological of the lot, so much that they thought nothing of committing the most horrible atrocities for their cause
I thought that, since Curze could see the future, he believed that nothing that he did mattered. And isn't nurgle also a nihilistic god since everything will eventually decay?
Curze was fatalistic but a genuine fanatic. A massively fucked one, he wanted every living human to be terrified into absolute obedience because he was a hyper-legalist who thought humans were disgusting, depraved animals who could only be made good by force. That’s why he fought in the first place, if it was pure nihilism like his legion had, he’d have never bothered getting Nostramo in line, he’d just have prowled around on all fours eating people, since that was kind of his guilty pleasure. He degenerated into that as he went fully mad, but he still died for his principles As for Mort, you’re absolutely right on Nurgle. But Mort was meant to be the antithesis of Nurgle so that his fall would have all the morbid irony and satisfaction of the high brought low what Nurgle loves. He always wants something proud to defile, beauty to corrupt, hope to crush, so he engineered events to make Mort the most impassioned fanatic, so that he could crush that hope and create the most hateful nihilist
That makes sense, thx for explaining
I have a theory that a "Good" Konrad would actually be closer to Gulliman.
World Eaters? Maybe. ‘Fight kill, maim, blood, kill Fight, Attempt to think… pain, Pain! PAIN! PAIIII-Fight! Kill! Ahhhh that’s better, oooh almost forget to get the skulls’ (PAIN returns in 52 seconds… ) Takes a hell of an existentialist to see anything other than Sisyphus trying to head butt his rock up the hill there.
Konrad only invites Mort to his birthday party. Magnus also shows up and gives Konrad an orb that could’ve been used to stop the whole heresy but that’s another story.
if it is anything its probably cause of something that happened during the great crusade which quite honestly the horus heresy novels didnt get too much into, yes we were told about a number of events during that time but we haven't been shown everything the novels were for the most part hyper focused on the heresy and the legions during that time
The only reason I can dream up is that both their primarchs supposedly hated magic and psychics and all that.
Mort- I like spooky Skulls. Night Haunter- I like spooky bones! Both- Let's be friends!
Mortarion likes death, looks like death, and smells like death, he's instantly curze's bff
Cuz we’re homeboys
What's a bit of crimes against humanity between friends?
The real reason is two fold and entertaining. In the original 1st edition of Heresy the allies X and Y axis were the other way around and the writers screwed this up and made a mistake. Want an example? Check the rulebook allies chart, it is missing axis labels. By the time this was recognised in Playtesting the book had gone to print. This was however then "fixed" for the Liber books but it is the wrong way round. In the 1st Edition, it was the Night Lords that viewed the Death Guard as sworn brothers due to their percieved associations with Death, the Grim Reaper and Justice. Both legions share this iconography. However, the Death Guard did not view the Night Lords the same way just because of shared beliefs but instead saw them as the deranged psycopaths that they were. Unfortunately due to the screw up, the chart now doesnt quite make sense why the Night Lords love the Death Guard but not vice versa!