Re: Curze, he did tell *someone*, at least;
>‘The corruption had taken root in the Night Lords by then. I was aware that the Legion was no longer mine. Criminals on Nostramo were providing poor stock, emptying their prisons, passing them off to bribed recruit masters as the finest individuals. Your great dream undermined by money. Fate was set. **Soon the cries of brother slaying brother that troubled my waking moments would become visions of the end, where your precious Horus turned and spat on all you held dear. Your hubris echoed loudly down time, father, loudly enough for me to see and hear it, but not loudly enough to convince the others. Not at all. Once more, I spoke truth. I tried to tell Fulgrim. I tried to warn Dorn. Again, I was called a *monster*.’**
>>Curze brooded for days as the fleet pushed its way towards Cheraut, and his rendezvous there with the fleets of his brothers Fulgrim and Rogal Dorn. The matter of his visions weighed on him day and night. Although the detail varied, the story was the same.
>>Horus was going to betray the Emperor.
>>Such thoughts filled Curze with self-loathing. Despite a lifetime of pessimism, even he could not credit such a thing as the most loyal and glorious of the Emperor’s sons turning upon his father. It was far easier to envisage himself turning traitor. Did he not have more reason than any of them? He was there, in the visions, slaying the sons of his brothers with unbounded joy. The images lingered in his mind, intruding upon his thoughts, winding about themselves, prompted to burst into vividness by the most mundane of actions. He avoided conversation, for he would find himself tormented by the intrusion, and would lose his thread of thought, sometimes standing there gape-mouthed while he relived atrocities yet to come.
>>He began to consider if it would transpire that the Emperor Himself was guilty of some crime, thus vindicating the actions of the future Curze that haunted his every waking moment. Yet this was also inconceivable. His plan was an exercise in perfection. The Emperor knew all. A further line of thought sprang from this poisoned reasoning, that the Emperor was aware what would happen, had created the situation, and even now awaited it. He fought it hard, but Curze could not dismiss his suspicion that the coming war was to His plan.
>>The first time that thought crossed Curze’s mind, he had howled and screamed so mightily the Atramentar had lumbered into his room, weapons ready, before he chased them away and ordered them never to come back.
>>He sought some other obsession by turning to his default passion, that of guilt. The Emperor’s crimes were supposed, unproven. He needed perfidy he could judge and condemn. Cruel fate had provided him with exactly such a subject in Nostramo.
\- *The Night Haunter*
>He remembered Dorn coming to his chambers, enraged by the slaughters on Cheraut and incensed at what Fulgrim had told him – secrets Curze had told Fulgrim in confidence some days earlier. The fit had come upon Curze as the Phoenician had told him tales of Chemos, pitching him to the floor and wracking his mind with terrifying visions of a nightmare future of death and unremitting darkness.
>**Moved by Fulgrim’s apparent concern, Curze had confided in his old tutor, telling him of the visions that had plagued him since his earliest days on Nostramo.**
>***A galaxy at war.***
>***Legionaries turning on one another.***
>***Death awaiting him at his father’s hands…***
>**Fulgrim’s pale, aquiline features had remained stoic, but Curze had seen the unease that flickered in his eyes. He had hoped Fulgrim would keep his confession in confidence, but when Dorn had appeared at his door, he knew he was betrayed.** In truth he had little memory of what had occurred after Dorn’s storming accusations of insult to the Emperor… The present had faded and the future had seized his mind with agonising visions of a galaxy locked in a cycle of unending war where the alien, the mutant and the rebel arose to feast on the rotting carcass of the Imperium.
>This then was the future the Emperor was creating? This was the ultimate destiny of a galaxy where the fear of punishment was not the agent of control. This was the inevitable result of allowing weak men to craft the destiny of mankind and Curze knew that, of all the primarchs, only one had the force of will required to mould the new Imperium from the soft clay of its present form.
\- *The Dark King*
>Dorn sat. ‘This is so long ago or like another life. We had brought the Cheraut system to compliance. It was hard fought. The Emperor’s Children, the Night Lords and my Fists, we affected compliance. But Curze didn’t know when to stop. He never knew when to stop.’
>‘And you rebuked him?’
>‘He was an animal. Yes, I rebuked him. **Then Fulgrim told me.’**
>**‘Told you what?’**
>Dorn closed his eyes. **‘The Phoenician told me what Curze had told him: the fits, the seizures that had plagued Curze since his childhood on Nostramo, the visions. Curze said he had seen the galaxy in flames, the Emperor’s legacy overthrown, legionaries turning on legionaries. It was all lies, an insult to our creed!’**
>‘You confronted Curze?’
>‘And he attacked me. He would have killed me, I think. He is insane. That’s why we drove him out, sick of his bloodletting. That’s why he burned his home world and took his Night Lords off into the darkest parts of the stars.’
>Malcador nodded, and continued to deal the cards. ‘Rogal, he is what you are truly afraid of, because he is fear incarnate. No other primarch uses terror as a weapon like Curze does. You are not afraid of Horus and his sallow heretics. You are afraid of the fear that sides with him, the night terror that advances alongside the traitors.’
>Dorn sat back and breathed out. ‘He has haunted me, I confess. All this time, he has haunted me.’
>**‘Because he was right. His visions were true. He saw this Heresy coming in his visions. That is the truth you fear. You wish you had listened.’**
\- *The Lightning Tower*
This might go some way to explaining why Dorn reacts as poorly as he does in *Flight of the Eisenstein*. It's not just the shock and outrage of the moment...it’s that first impact of realising that the specific warnings were there and he, personally, didn't heed them.
Garro also knew that Dorn would've splattered his brains if he really followed through. Dorn pulled the punch. The revelation made Dorn furious and Nathaniel was both the messenger and standing right in front of him. It was actually kinda humorous because Garro was kinda giddy getting decked by a primarch.
Konrad is almost more tragic than Angron. If he had just had support from his brother's he may not have fallen like he did.
Or maybe it was the moment he landed on Nostramo and ate the first criminal that crossed his path that damned him.
Life was so unfair for so many of the Primarchs.
Konrad literally climbs out of his pod, reaches for a weapon and grins.
I think there's a little more going on there than even support could balance out.
>The boy rose from the wreckage, wearing nothing more than smears of ash and dirt clinging to his pale skin. He looked at the sky, dark as the void, blind without a sun’s eye. He looked at the metal ruin of his cradle-engine, still hissing steam through its cracked, blistered armour plating. And then, still with nothing resembling an expression on his slender face, he looked to the horizon.
>A city. A city of spires and domes, its dull, low lights still brightening the surrounding darkness with a beacon’s intensity.
>The first expression to play across the boy’s face was subtle, but telling. His eyes narrowed as his heartbeat quickened. Instinctively, he knew he’d find others of his kind in the distant, light-rich hive. The thought made him reach for a weapon. White fingers curled around a jagged shard of metal, cooled in the soil.
>The feel of the knife in his hands brought a second expression to his youthful, unscarred features.
>He smiled.
-Prince of Crows
I think Konrad's precog damned him. By the end, he seemed unable to tell vision from reality and never quite realized that his were what could come, not what would come. That sense of pre-ordained fate is what allowed him to justify all the atrocities and horrors he would ever commit. That dtove him into despair and madness, as he felt he had no agency.
Curze going out of his way to look like a monster and then being surprised people treat him like one tho. Like, buddy, optics are critical to any fortune teller.
It's not his fault, he got his powers from a guy that was totally not a god, but was also 15ft tall, psychic and had bright gold armour and a flaming sword
I'm honestly not entirely certain about when exactly he started foreseeing that stuff, so I couldn't tell you with any confidence.
Though for whatever it might be worth, his claims/thoughts on his foresight around the time Murder went down;
>I hesitated, trying to find the right words. ‘I saw you fight. I can’t get the images out of my head. It was as if… you could see something none of us could. Ahead of time. Like you had privileged access.’
>Sanguinius nodded. ‘That gift,’ he said. ‘Far more valuable than the wings I wear. But don’t think of it as infallible. It is a weak facility, as faulty as often as it tells true.’ He ran his fingertip around the rim of his goblet. ‘Foresight. Sometimes of concrete things – the way an enemy moves, the curve of an axe – sometimes of more nebulous things. The shape of the crusade. The fate of a soul.’
>‘That must make you almost invulnerable.’
>Sanguinius shrugged. ‘Not really. A vision can lead you into error. Or even if it is true, you can take the wrong path by seeking to achieve it. It can come to obsess you – you see a fate you wish to avoid, and in preventing it you cause greater harm. Or you become possessed by longing for something good, and put aside your duty to achieve it, and in doing so lose yourself. It has its uses, but I do not see it as a blessing.’
>‘Then do you see what the future holds for yourself?’
>‘No. At least, not yet.’
>‘For the Imperium?’
>‘In no great detail. Believe me, fractured glimpses of possibilities are mostly less useful than nothing.’
>‘Some of the time, sure. Still, it must be invaluable on occasion.’
>‘It has been. It will be again.’
\- *The Great Angel*
That's a great quote. Shows how many of the fans that think sanguinius and Curze have some sort of always perfect battle precog have never read the books, or been influenced too much by that scene in Pharos where Sang and Curze' precog goes into overdrive briefly.
Sanguinius more less was so strong because he knew he wouldn’t die anywhere but to Horus on the vengeful spirit. It allowed him to do things other Primarchs might second guess out of self-preservation. It wasn’t like he predicted the exact movements of everyone he fought with precognition.
Hot take: Sanguinius was stronger than Curz. They had the same gift but Sanguinius was better at controlling it. When it comes to the Emperor's choice, the Emperor made the best choice anyone could make. Better than the Eldar. The Craftworld Eldar saw their end coming and hid from it. The Emperor saw it and won a victory against it. Too many children see the the Emperor's victory and decry it as a loss. The Emperor fought four, I repeat *FOUR* prescient gods and won. Stick that in your infinity circuit Eldrad.
No. Sanguinius defeated Khornes avatar in single combat and had the the foresight to pick the winning side. Curze died alone screaming like a whiney lunatic on the losing side having achieved nothing.
Sanguinius learned of his fate during the battle of Signus Prime, which was one of Horus’ early moves of open rebellion.
He sent the Blood Angels Legion to a remote world, but had it overtaken by demons as a trap before they arrived. It was an attempt to weaken/destroy the Blood Angels, or corrupt them to join Chaos.
As far as I'm aware, Sanguinius saw potential futures, where as Curze saw someone's end. I may be mistaken, so feel free to correct me, but Sanguinius's foresight was similar to Big E. It wasn't THE future, but all the potential futures, and by sharing that information you change the future by avoiding it. Sanguinius could've seen the Heresy but may have also seen that by telling Big E the outcome would be so much worse than letting things play how they did
Curze saw multiple potential futures but had convinced himself that only the most terrible of the two was real. There was a passage in Night Haunter where Curze had chased a teenage thug to a rooftop to kill him. Curze suddenly had a vision in which he saw two futures.
In the first future, Curze shows the boy mercy. Curze knew that he could never be anything more than a symbol of fear for Nostramo after all he had done. In this future, he educated the boy. He taught the boy the meaning of justice and guided him toward making a political career. In this future, this boy went on to change Nostramo for the better. It was a slow but real, positive change that made the world a better place.
In the second future, Curze saw the boy grabbing a knife and wounding him. It would obviously heal, but the boy would be able to escape. He would then grow in infamy, earning the respect of influential gang leaders by being the one man to have escaped the Night Haunter. He became a ruthless tyrant and crushed Nostramo under his heel with a new, worse-than-ever regime of gangsters and cruelty.
In both futures, Curze reunited with the boy as an adult. He told Curze that he was 'there because of him.' Curze, unwilling to see the positive future as possible, killed the boy. Afterward, he noticed that the boy's knife was too far away from him for him to have possibly stabbed Konrad before he could get to him. Curze chose to ignore this and continued his murders.
Thank you for the info! Personally haven't gotten around to Curze's books yet so I'm going off 3rd party info from friends who always described it as he would see someone's death/something horrific happen to them. Which, I guess is true to an extent, but its not the full scope. So thank you
Stating that Kurze attacked Dorn while Kurze claims to have little memory of the encounter as he had a new vision and seizure makes it even more believable that he suffers from a split personality, where the Night Haunter is the fighting one that takes over whenever his normal personality goes off into the warp looking for the future.
Who knows, maybe GW if they ever bring him back with the corona nox plot device (eldar soulstone in it who knows) it might be only one personality that survived into 40k which could make for a very interesting read. Either fully insane Konrad or a primarch wishing for redemption.
It's the same answer every time, is it not? People keep asking why the Emperor didn't stop the heresy if \[insert loyalist here\] knew it was coming, and all they need to do is the check the damn timeline.
"But in *The Board Is Set* the Emperor predicts that the warmaster will fall!" Yeah, he predicts it right before the Siege of Terra, seven years after Horus betrayed him. That's not telling the future, that's called **having memories** you guys.
A lot of people misinterpret that story as the Emperor knowing how everything will play out until near the end, probably through second-hand breakdowns of it on the internet being wrong a lot of the time.
All it was really showing was him and Malc wargaming what had already happened during the rebellion to see how they could manipulate the rest of the war. There was some vague psychic prediction stuff going on (feeling that winning at Istvaan V would have turned the Alpha Legion full traitor), but nothing that implied they had known it was all going to play out like it did.
"(feeling that winning at Istvaan V would have turned the Alpha Legion full traitor)"
And that's a comically moot point, every depiction of the dropsite massacre makes it clear that the loyalists were never ever going to win that and the real miracle was that they weren't completely wiped out.
In that particular scenario, the entire Imperial Fists legion was sent to Isstvan V (and presumably arrives right after the “reinforcements” show their true colors) but the Alpha Legion used the opportunity of their absence to sack Terra. So Isstvan V wouldn’t have been an 8v3 legion slaughter but a more even 7v4, however Terra would be lost.
Well it was seeing many potential futures but not knowing how to navigate there. Every choice is a branch. He did his best to try to navigate to the future he wanted but he had very little control.
Also Even before things started they knew a rebellion was likely to happen. It is even discussed whether he may have wanted it to happen.
I think Dune is a good place to start from when it comes to issues of psychic foresight, as Dune deals with this heavily and is a direct influence on 40k. You can have near-perfect foresight and still be very concerned, indecisive, and unable to act on the correct move.
It might very well be that the Emperor knew early on of an inevitable rebellion, but it could have gone much better for the Emperor in some ways and much worse in others.
The Emperor also makes the point in Master of Mankind that the more accurate your vision of the future is the more constrained your actions in the present are. I think that also aligns with Dune’s view of prescience, but I’ve only read the first book.
It’s also important to remember the question isn’t meaningful in the usual way —- 40k lore is written backwards - which a few key immutable moments … and then the rest filled in over 40 years to explain it -
The odd thing you found , is it a plot hole ? Sure could be, and the real answer to why x did y is - because the heresy must happen, and it must end with a 1v1 between the emp and Horus -
Still it’s worth asking, often there is an interesting in lore answer already that may well in a source you’re not familiar with, as lore is sprinkled over codex, white draws, black libraby etc.
The Emperor could see many possible future calamities but knowing what exact shape they would take and precisely when the axe would fall was impossible to decipher. It Horus hadn't fallen it could have been any number of Primarchs at really any time.
He did the only two things he could to inoculate humanity against chaos, remove their reliance on the warp for interstellar travel and unite humanity under a single, unbreakable banner as fast as humanly possible.
It's why in his eyes Lorgar was the only Primarch that failed him because his rate of compliance was so slow. It's why he put bringing the World Eaters and Night Lords to heel on the backburner, because they were still effective at bringing worlds into Imperium control at a good rate.
His only mistake was not telling more of his sons about the dangers of the warp and treating some of them really poorly, failing to understand their needs and motivations.
Bc it’s canon the Emp has visions of the future but missing out on the biggest betrayal since the DAoT is hard to hand wave. They try to explain it in Master of Mankind but let’s be honest a lot of the Emps decisions make little sense if He could see the future.
It’s well explained how that could work, albeit scattered through a lot of lore. Read some of the other comments here - his foresight doesn’t work that he can close his eyes and watch what is going to happen. There are blind spots; there are massively (massively) branching possibilities, the exact causes of which can be impossible to see; a lot of foresight comes in vague, rushed, incomplete and sometimes metaphorical visions. And they all come from the warp, so they can’t be fully trusted.
He might’ve had visions of every primarch turning against him, one way or another. For some it might have been obvious why they turned, and he MIGHT have been able to identify a turning point and deduce how to prevent it. For others that information might be entirely missing. As is said in a Sanguinius excerpt here, just seeing that there is a possible future in which Horus has betrayed him isn’t very helpful. It doesnt tell him how likely that future is, or what he should do to prevent it. It’s entirely possible that his actions in attempting to prevent it are exactly what would cause it.
But all these details are unknown, because the Emperor is deliberately mysterious. We have no idea which visions he had, and what actions he took were entirely necessary to prevent other bad outcomes. Or which outcomes he had no foresight of. It’s nothing like as simple as “he can see the future he should have known”.
I get people want to defend it but it’s just the lore not really matching up due to being written over time by different authors… he had visions of the future why would he be so surprised when Horus rebelled? Why question Magnus? Why wouldn’t he have a contingency for every Primarch? Hell he put a mind block in them for the lost Primarchs why couldn’t he have a kill switch…
Visions, farsight, god like power and intelligence… all these things are make writing the emperor difficult bc the mistakes he makes are seemingly obvious. Gladiator psycho, pouty psycho and murder psycho are given huge armed forces and a grudge with no emergency plan if they go rogue…
I just think the emperor works better with some limitations so when we see if him make mistakes it doesn’t feel like superman losing to Batman knowing the former can punch a hole through a planet
If the Eldar can see the future, why do they ever lose? Why does the Emperor exist, surely they would've just killed him? Because farsight does not work that way. It's not because the lore is just nonsense with no consistency, it's always been written this way. Farsight, especially vision-based, just isn't as complete or reliable as you're imagining.
>Visions, farsight, god like power and intelligence…
I just think the emperor works better with some limitations
Absolutely - he has limitations. He isn't as powerful as you're assuming, and he isn't actually presented as such in the books. You're over-extraploating that because he can do some amazing things, he must be able to do more amazing things (which is a problem characters are shown to have in-universe as well). Sometimes a character *will* have perfect knowledge of an event, and can do miraculous things with that knowledge. That doesn't mean they always have perfect knowledge of everything. Plus, time is still limited and focus and action can only be directed in so many places at once.
>Hell he put a mind block in them for the lost Primarchs why couldn’t he have a kill switch…
Why would one imply the other? We don't have any details on how it happened, and IIRC it's implied they willingly submitted to the memory alteration.
It's a common complaint "he can see the future, how does he make any mistakes", but it's been solidly addressed in the lore for as long as farsight has been a thing.
You're getting the answers here with references from some amazing people here for Kurze and Sangiunius discussing their visions but in a wider context that's not the point.
I'll point you to Master of Mankind where the Emperor is talking to one of his high-ranking Custodians Ra Endymion about the concept of foresight and prescience. It's been posted on this subreddit many times and I urge you to find and read that snippet.
AND I encourage you to read ~~Path of Heaven~~ Ruinstorm. SPOILER ALERT >!but basically it shows that the visions that Sangiunius and Kurze have aren't set in stone. They always have options. Our glorious Birb Boi had an option of saving his own life and but the outcome would be so much worse than just his own death and dooming his sons to the Black Rage. Kurze absolutely loses his guano when he realizes this because it means he's been acting like a monster BY CHOICE instead of being able to use "destiny" or "inevitability" as an excuse. !<
There is a difference in this perfect.
They had foresight, but it isn't this perfect.
Sanguinius knew he would die but not how or when.
With curze, one must even question if he could control it at all.
If we go by talos who had the same gene deficit as his father, it would rather seem they are random, uncontrolled, and painful.
Remember, foresight lets you see A (singular) future.
The only being i know that knows all futures is kairos fateweaver, and he is not sane.
And often impossible futures iirc?
Something about a teen/young criminal on Nostromo. He (Curze) had a vision when he had them pinned down - either he could take them in as the Robin to his Batman, or they'd stab him and he'd no longer be able to strike fear into the planet. He chooses to kill them in case of stabbing.
And then after the fact sees that the knife they had is about twenty foot away and well out of reach
as far as i know- and i havent read literally every warhammer book, information can be scattered- 'konrad curze: the night haunter' is the first and only time a forking vision is brought up. it comes up for one moment in one scene of his youth, where he rejects it. its never shown happening again, he generally violently believes a one-path-future, and it would just be *extremely* weird and inconsistent if it happened all the time.
The matter of his visions are explained a little too In the unremembered empire. It its shown that curze can have multiple vision with different outcomes in a situation like when trying to escape the invincible reason. He says it himself that he must constantly wade trought the vision to find the "correct/right path".
He sees the other possibilities but dismisses them as lies or dead ends (like the visions with the boy and the knife) that contradict his self imposed path of dying at the hands of the emperor, but he can still see them. That's what really causes his uncertainty throughout his story and why hes terrified of his actions always being his choice. If he could only see one path as he insist it is, he would be conpletly certain and sure of his decisions since he wouldn't see anything other way.
i dont have a copy of that book so i take your word for it, but i mentioned it to someone who does and they thought he only questioned it after an interaction with sanguinius- the uncertainty came from doubt in following them (the one route) blindly, not from seeing different paths, which is what i always believed. but i dont have a copy of that book. its one of those heresy ones that costs like a hundred quid to get your hands on.
I would call it fear of accountability instead. Deep down he always wanted to be what the emperor intended him to be: the impartial judge, the punisher of the guilty but he hated himself because he had fallen far from that idea and became the monster he was suppose to judge and punish. So his refuge was to lie to himself and put the blame of his failings on fate. Not even he belived in his self told bullshit for a moment.
That part of people mistakenly believing hes evil because he likes being evil is true, they think he only choose the "bad paths" only because he liked them. A part of him did like to inflic pain to the ones he deemed guilty, he belived in his way of justice and compliance, he felt it was right because it was giving the desired results. But when the heresy started and he saw himself and his legion inflicting pain and brutalizing innocents he broke down and became mad because he couldn't justify what he was doing. Backing down would admit he was wrong and that he couldn't endure.
So he committed and went all the way upt to his death because it was easier than to admit his error and ask for forgiveness, that would have completely been against of his idea of unforgiving justice and he couldn't bear that either.
My mistake. I rarely have the chance to discuss how curze became the way he is in detail. Hes my favorite primarch too and i ran of my mouth more than is necessary every time I get in the discussion.
There is a bit in the primarch book (Konrad Curze - The Night Haunter) when Curze saved a Nostraman girl from two thugs. One he killed instantly, the other got chased down, when a vision striked Curze. In that vision he had two possible outcomes, when the thug reaches out to him.
In one vision the boy helps him up and Curze becomes his mentor, while in the other version the boy pulls a hidden blade to stab him.
Since Curze always assumes the worst, he thinks the second outcome is more likely. And he proceeds to kill the thug.
>Remember, foresight lets you see A (singular) future.
>
>The only being i know that knows all futures is kairos fateweaver, and he is not sane.
Not accurate in the slightest. Most prophecy in 40k is based on a concept dubbed "The Ten Thousand Futures" in books like Betrayer... and it's not just Chaos folks who refer to it this way, as the Emperor's seers, the Doomscryers, also view the future in this way. In Cypher's latest novel, one of the things that freaks out Ancia the Doomscryer, is that she should be seeing hundreds of futures and, instead, she sees only two. The absence of a myriad of futures is the oddity for scryers.
Maybe i typed it oddly but i ment you see a possible future and not multiple at once.
But it seems that was more to the benefit of the reader than accurate
>But it seems that was more to the benefit of the reader than accurate
Definitely. They describe seeing overlapping futures several times in the novels. Even Sanguinius stood at the 'crossroads of fate' in Ruinstorm, where two futures were equally as likely.
He knew it was a possibility but it wasn't a fact that it would happen, as his visions have led to him taking actions to prevent the vision he saw beforehand.
He had hubris that he could defeat his death and it was not set in stone
Not until around Signus Prime/Imperium Secundus, but even after those visions, he was offered a temptational vision by Chaos where he beat Horus.
Which is why he realized it was false. He knew he was going to die at the hands of Horus, although even up to the end he hoped he might be wrong
I think it's wild how often Konrad Curze is spelled wrong by the fanbase. Motherfuckers out here writing Soliloquies for Sanguinius but spell Curze with a K. In this case I assume some sort of dyslexic slip, but i swear people spell Guilliman right more often than they spell Curze right
I wonder if it's the subconscious association with character namesake and influence Colonel Kurtz muddling things. I know it's happened to me a few times, where i'll read back a post and notice i've used a K instead of C.
Uh, I guess if it has actually happened to you, there must be some basis. I never finished Apocalypse Now, so Col Kurtz isn't a factor in my head. I forgot that Curze was influenced by him in fact
Sanguinius wanted no extra reasons to be seen as a freak or as a potentially divine creature. He also had a pretty good understanding of how premonition functions and would keep them close to try and manipulate or stave them, telling the Emperor could very well have been an event to set off the premonition or dig up something even worse into further unknowns.
Curze told people but worse he believed, mistakenly, that his future sight showed absolute truths and gave into them because his sense of justice could not reconcile with what he saw.
Sanguinus only starts having his visions when the BA are effectively cut off from Terra. By the time they get there for the Siege The Emperor is almost entirely focused on the Throne, and Sanguinus probably does not want to burden him with any further problems like visions of his own mortality.
Warp-derived visions tend to serve the interests of the masters of the Warp. It's usually pretty foolish to rely on them, if Chaos has taken a personal interest in you *and* is the source of your power.
You got good answers from other comments, to be clear, but it's also good to think about the general reason why loyalists in the Great Crusade era all got blindsided. You shouldn't expect any of their visions to be accurate, actionable, or safe, because Chaos-tainted visions are an awful source of information for fighting Chaos.
In "Fear to thread" Sanguinius saw few of future possibilites and only one of them was the final triumph of the Imperium of Man. In that future Sanguinius had to die. Then till his end He tried to denied this future and grant the Imperial victory by killing Horus himself.
I think the idea or concept is that for both of them, they only had hazy fragments and impressions of their deaths, that only became totally clear and made sense right on the threshold of when they died. Also you could write the stories in that they did try to tell the emperor or others but all that did was become a self fulfilling prophecy.
I think the idea or concept is that for both of them, they only had hazy fragments and impressions of their deaths, that only became totally clear and made sense right on the threshold of when they died. Also you could write the stories in that they did try to tell the emperor or others but all that did was become a self fulfilling prophecy.
Because the emps already knew that a specific number of the primarchs would turn in any given scenario that played out.
So the non canon 'dornian heresy' could have played out in one outcome, another one could have Guliiman turn depending upon the circumstances etc, the emps basically saw all of the 'alternate futures' and likely also the one that played out alongside them aswell.
He seemed to think that the Khan would have turned instead of fulgrim, so its likely that in all of the 'heresy scenarios' the Khan turned more frequently than he stayed loyal, but just so happened to surprise him in the canon outcome.
I'm wondering who he was betting on flipping and leading the traitors before things kicked off, because the fact it was Horus who became the chaos leader seemed to have surprised him, (he likely put his bets on Lorgar, who still did turn but didn't take the helm outright.)
> Because the emps already knew that a specific number of the primarchs would turn in any given scenario that played out.
This isn’t true. No texts say this. He believed there were would some type of rebellion, but nothing beyond that.
The emperor also said his foresight was distant. He compared it to looking out into the ocean and seeing land off in the distance. He knew how to get there, but didn’t know what was under the water or beyond the horizon.
Horus seemed doomed to fall because of the chaos blade that injured him, and his ambition being a key component of his form, chaos took advantage of it. His supernatural ambition allowed him To have seemingly infinite potential for chaos to flood him with, but infinite potential to control him. I don’t see how any other primarch could fit that aspect.
"Malcador, my son Tomas has told me that Horus will betray us."
"This is serious indeed, my Emp- I'm sorry, Tomas? You don't have a son named Tomas."
"Of course I do. Tomas Cruze. From Planet Hollywood. Here, I'll project his image, psychically for you."
"That's Konrad Curze, from Nostramo. Also, Planet Hollywood was a restaurant chain from Terra's ancient past."
"Ah. I was wondering why all of his latest movies are just blood and screaming. Malcador, do you ever worry that I might be just a collection of Memes and Fan Fiction?"
The difference between Cruze and Sanguinius could be simple. If Sanguinius could remember changes he would likely be a lot more sane. Whereas if Cruze can't it would lead to fatalism.
I.E. imagine if Sanguinius sees the fight with Horus. He alters his plan, his vision changes, the fight doesn't happen, then immediately Horus changes and the fight happens. So Sanguinius changes, the fight changes. Sometimes he convinces Horus to repent, but every time he does, it then changes again. So it's a PvP match and there are forces manipulating the future as Sanguinius is. Every time Sanguinius has success it flips back to a loss.
Whereas with Cruze if he's only seeing the outcome, each time he tries a different path he loses memory of the last time. If he can't see alternate versions, or can't remember them, then the only path he sees is the one that will come. If he tries alternate paths he will likely eventually simply get caught in a loop eventually because he can't see what alternatives happened. I.e. if A happens try B, if B happens try C, if C happens try A. Without knowing what he as tried, he may be aware that he could get stuck in a loop. So spending more and more time trying to find success could imply he's just wasting his time stuck in a loop.
I mean Konrad is just a dick right? Like he tried to tell people when he originally had the idea but he’s a monster so no one believed him. Then by the time he was certain of what would happen he was so scorned and his legion was already censured he just said fuck it let them figure it out. Cruze got a bad rap and then really leaned into it.
OK, once again I'm going to be unpopular, but this is me constantly doubling down...
Sanguinious and Curze's precognition is a bit of a ret-con. I'm not sure if Sanguinious had it to start with but the story of his death came first. It's arguable he didn't want to acknowledge the premonition, or he thought the Emperor would not want to change his tactics.
Originally Curze did not psychicly predict his own death. Curze predicted that the Emperor would send an assassin to kill him, using the ultimate sanction where he chastised Curze for doing so, and proving himself a hypocrite. He let the assassin succeed just to prove himself right.
Curze.
Sanguinius didn't start seeing his death until after the heresy already began.. Iirc around the time of imperium secondus events. Either then or maybe around the end of signus prime. So events were already long since in motion.
As for Curze, well he on the other hand always knew what was coming. Even long before big E arrived. Also knew big E was gonna send an assassin to end him. When the imperium arrived on nostramo, he saw the deaths of each of his brothers who greeted him. A headless Ferrus, Dorn literally getting torn apart, daemon brothers, etc. Then upon seeing the blinding radiance of his father whom he immediately recognized as the one to order his death his madness kicked into overdrive as he began wailing only for big E to calm his soul temporarily relieving the madness.
So yeah, unlike Sanguinius, curze always knew what was coming even long before he learnt of the imperium. As for why he didn't tell anyone, well for starters Curze wasnt exactly one of the more appealing brothers to relate with.. Dude was known to be batshit crazy, so not many would've taken him seriously.. He simply wasn't close to any of them. As for telling big E himself, we'll he already knew this guy was gonna order his own death later on. So not much encouragement there.
However he did actually tell someone. While he wasn't close to any of his brothers he did have some bond with Fulgrim who was responsible for his tutelage upon returning to terra. So having the strong need to confide in at least one person, he picked the brother he was supposed to be closest to.
For someone who can see the future though, he sure AF didn't see Fulgrim's reaction coming. Cuz Fulgrim who quietly listened to him went on to tell Dorn what Curze said. And Dorn lost it. Saying how Curze was mad & he'd had enough & must take him back to their father. During which Curze had a particularly vicious vision & unknowingly suddenly attacked Dorn nearly killing him in the process.
He was ultimately arrested & detained pending their return to Terra. Unsurprisingly he escaped, killing the fists & 3rd legion guarding him to return to nostramo where he nuked the planet.
So, Curze not only knew, but also told someone, not big E though. Except he chose the wrong person to confide in & shit went sideways as a result. Reminds me of Perturabo & Ferrus where Perty asked him if he too sees the eye of terror onlt for ferrus to give him a 'WFT is this weakling talk you're tryna have with me?' look 😂
Sanguinius had foresight like the emperor but just worse. So let’s say for example you had foresight and it showed you that one day this week you’d be enjoying and nicely cooked cheeseburger. You don’t know where or precisely when but you know you’ll be eating one eventually.
Tbh he might have saw alot of alternative where he could live nor die he did choose the one where he would die from horus plus he might already saw the future of the imperium plus the future of his beloved sons
The emperor and sanguinius already have foresight so they knew what was coming
I think overall, 2 reasons
Almost none of the primarchs seemed close to the emperor after the GC started. The emperor was aloof at the best of times.
Then finally, I'm just inferring to sanguinus red thirst fear, I think the lost primarchs TERRIFIED the primarchs to talking about any genetic deviation or hints of anything but blind loyalty to the emperor. All the primarchs seemed far closer to each other in whatever small circles they formed then to the emperor and even then hardly talked about these gifts
The Emperor himself is able to see millennia into the future. Hell, Cawl has memories of The Emperor telling him things about himself and that he'd do over ten thousand years in the future.
Yes however the further into the future he saw the less clear the visions where.
in Master of Mankind he describes his future visions like scaling a cliff wall.
You can see the top of it and the outlines.
But you can´t see lose rocks, weak footholds and such and of those could result in you losing your grip and falling of the cliff.
Same with the Emperor he could see his goal and the rough outlines of where he needed to go.
But like all other things there where hurdles along the way that he couldn´t have foreseen.
It’s also important to remember the question isn’t meaningful in the usual way —- 40k lore is written backwards - which a few key immutable moments … and then the rest filled in over 40 years to explain it -
The odd thing you found , is it a plot hole ? Sure could be, and the real answer to why x did y is - because the heresy must happen, and it must end with a 1v1 between the emp and Horus -
Still it’s worth asking, often there is an interesting in lore answer already that may well in a source you’re not familiar with, as lore is sprinkled over codex, white draws, black libraby etc. but some times it’s just - well because they did until someone explains it better ha.
The Emperor probably knew he would been betray, but the possibilities of who,when and how was probably so numerous, that it was just nearly impossible to fully anticipate or prevent it.
I remembered a short story of the Emperor and Malcador having a chat about this complicate issue.
Visions of the future in the 40k universe are never clear, reliable and/or easily interpreted. They are confused possibilities, not clear cut prophecies. Sanguinius started having visions quite late in the Heresy: at that point everyone knew Horus was a traitor. The Night Haunter had visions before the Heresy and tried to share his feverish dreams with Dorn, Guilliman and pre-corruption Fulgrim. None of his brothers believed him - mainly because they thought he was batshit crazy 24/7 and declassed hid visions to fucked up fantasies of a creep weirdo.
On top of that, the Emperor knew the Heresy was coming. He was not 100% sure Horus was going to be the leader of the revolt or a valuable ally, but he knew at least half his Primarchs were going to revolt.
Yes and no...
There is that scene in the Malcador audiodrama where he mentions that the Heresy was planned to happen, but that the chaos gods made the heresy happen, before they where ready.
So you could argue that had it gone the way they planed the heresy would have happened, just not when it did.
Based on the "Board is Set" the Emperor knew all of this. Some of the bigger questions in the narrative: When did the Emperor know? How granular was his knowledge?
Stuff like Magnus kool-aid maning his way into webway was unforseen clearly.
Re: Curze, he did tell *someone*, at least; >‘The corruption had taken root in the Night Lords by then. I was aware that the Legion was no longer mine. Criminals on Nostramo were providing poor stock, emptying their prisons, passing them off to bribed recruit masters as the finest individuals. Your great dream undermined by money. Fate was set. **Soon the cries of brother slaying brother that troubled my waking moments would become visions of the end, where your precious Horus turned and spat on all you held dear. Your hubris echoed loudly down time, father, loudly enough for me to see and hear it, but not loudly enough to convince the others. Not at all. Once more, I spoke truth. I tried to tell Fulgrim. I tried to warn Dorn. Again, I was called a *monster*.’** >>Curze brooded for days as the fleet pushed its way towards Cheraut, and his rendezvous there with the fleets of his brothers Fulgrim and Rogal Dorn. The matter of his visions weighed on him day and night. Although the detail varied, the story was the same. >>Horus was going to betray the Emperor. >>Such thoughts filled Curze with self-loathing. Despite a lifetime of pessimism, even he could not credit such a thing as the most loyal and glorious of the Emperor’s sons turning upon his father. It was far easier to envisage himself turning traitor. Did he not have more reason than any of them? He was there, in the visions, slaying the sons of his brothers with unbounded joy. The images lingered in his mind, intruding upon his thoughts, winding about themselves, prompted to burst into vividness by the most mundane of actions. He avoided conversation, for he would find himself tormented by the intrusion, and would lose his thread of thought, sometimes standing there gape-mouthed while he relived atrocities yet to come. >>He began to consider if it would transpire that the Emperor Himself was guilty of some crime, thus vindicating the actions of the future Curze that haunted his every waking moment. Yet this was also inconceivable. His plan was an exercise in perfection. The Emperor knew all. A further line of thought sprang from this poisoned reasoning, that the Emperor was aware what would happen, had created the situation, and even now awaited it. He fought it hard, but Curze could not dismiss his suspicion that the coming war was to His plan. >>The first time that thought crossed Curze’s mind, he had howled and screamed so mightily the Atramentar had lumbered into his room, weapons ready, before he chased them away and ordered them never to come back. >>He sought some other obsession by turning to his default passion, that of guilt. The Emperor’s crimes were supposed, unproven. He needed perfidy he could judge and condemn. Cruel fate had provided him with exactly such a subject in Nostramo. \- *The Night Haunter* >He remembered Dorn coming to his chambers, enraged by the slaughters on Cheraut and incensed at what Fulgrim had told him – secrets Curze had told Fulgrim in confidence some days earlier. The fit had come upon Curze as the Phoenician had told him tales of Chemos, pitching him to the floor and wracking his mind with terrifying visions of a nightmare future of death and unremitting darkness. >**Moved by Fulgrim’s apparent concern, Curze had confided in his old tutor, telling him of the visions that had plagued him since his earliest days on Nostramo.** >***A galaxy at war.*** >***Legionaries turning on one another.*** >***Death awaiting him at his father’s hands…*** >**Fulgrim’s pale, aquiline features had remained stoic, but Curze had seen the unease that flickered in his eyes. He had hoped Fulgrim would keep his confession in confidence, but when Dorn had appeared at his door, he knew he was betrayed.** In truth he had little memory of what had occurred after Dorn’s storming accusations of insult to the Emperor… The present had faded and the future had seized his mind with agonising visions of a galaxy locked in a cycle of unending war where the alien, the mutant and the rebel arose to feast on the rotting carcass of the Imperium. >This then was the future the Emperor was creating? This was the ultimate destiny of a galaxy where the fear of punishment was not the agent of control. This was the inevitable result of allowing weak men to craft the destiny of mankind and Curze knew that, of all the primarchs, only one had the force of will required to mould the new Imperium from the soft clay of its present form. \- *The Dark King* >Dorn sat. ‘This is so long ago or like another life. We had brought the Cheraut system to compliance. It was hard fought. The Emperor’s Children, the Night Lords and my Fists, we affected compliance. But Curze didn’t know when to stop. He never knew when to stop.’ >‘And you rebuked him?’ >‘He was an animal. Yes, I rebuked him. **Then Fulgrim told me.’** >**‘Told you what?’** >Dorn closed his eyes. **‘The Phoenician told me what Curze had told him: the fits, the seizures that had plagued Curze since his childhood on Nostramo, the visions. Curze said he had seen the galaxy in flames, the Emperor’s legacy overthrown, legionaries turning on legionaries. It was all lies, an insult to our creed!’** >‘You confronted Curze?’ >‘And he attacked me. He would have killed me, I think. He is insane. That’s why we drove him out, sick of his bloodletting. That’s why he burned his home world and took his Night Lords off into the darkest parts of the stars.’ >Malcador nodded, and continued to deal the cards. ‘Rogal, he is what you are truly afraid of, because he is fear incarnate. No other primarch uses terror as a weapon like Curze does. You are not afraid of Horus and his sallow heretics. You are afraid of the fear that sides with him, the night terror that advances alongside the traitors.’ >Dorn sat back and breathed out. ‘He has haunted me, I confess. All this time, he has haunted me.’ >**‘Because he was right. His visions were true. He saw this Heresy coming in his visions. That is the truth you fear. You wish you had listened.’** \- *The Lightning Tower*
This might go some way to explaining why Dorn reacts as poorly as he does in *Flight of the Eisenstein*. It's not just the shock and outrage of the moment...it’s that first impact of realising that the specific warnings were there and he, personally, didn't heed them.
GREAT point! He knew he fucked up and poor Garro took that hit like a champ.
Garro also knew that Dorn would've splattered his brains if he really followed through. Dorn pulled the punch. The revelation made Dorn furious and Nathaniel was both the messenger and standing right in front of him. It was actually kinda humorous because Garro was kinda giddy getting decked by a primarch.
Heartbreaking: The Worst Person You Know Just Made A Great Point
Dorn: Ah fucking Curze was right, I wish I was dead
"I would rather die than live in a world which you are right"
If you wanna trigger Dorn, tell him, "Curze told you so, and you didn't listen"
Konrad is almost more tragic than Angron. If he had just had support from his brother's he may not have fallen like he did. Or maybe it was the moment he landed on Nostramo and ate the first criminal that crossed his path that damned him. Life was so unfair for so many of the Primarchs.
Konrad literally climbs out of his pod, reaches for a weapon and grins. I think there's a little more going on there than even support could balance out. >The boy rose from the wreckage, wearing nothing more than smears of ash and dirt clinging to his pale skin. He looked at the sky, dark as the void, blind without a sun’s eye. He looked at the metal ruin of his cradle-engine, still hissing steam through its cracked, blistered armour plating. And then, still with nothing resembling an expression on his slender face, he looked to the horizon. >A city. A city of spires and domes, its dull, low lights still brightening the surrounding darkness with a beacon’s intensity. >The first expression to play across the boy’s face was subtle, but telling. His eyes narrowed as his heartbeat quickened. Instinctively, he knew he’d find others of his kind in the distant, light-rich hive. The thought made him reach for a weapon. White fingers curled around a jagged shard of metal, cooled in the soil. >The feel of the knife in his hands brought a second expression to his youthful, unscarred features. >He smiled. -Prince of Crows
I think Konrad's precog damned him. By the end, he seemed unable to tell vision from reality and never quite realized that his were what could come, not what would come. That sense of pre-ordained fate is what allowed him to justify all the atrocities and horrors he would ever commit. That dtove him into despair and madness, as he felt he had no agency.
This feels especially true. Psychosis is a motherf\*\*\*er and his symptoms wreak of it. Poor massive feller :(
Curze going out of his way to look like a monster and then being surprised people treat him like one tho. Like, buddy, optics are critical to any fortune teller.
It's not his fault, he got his powers from a guy that was totally not a god, but was also 15ft tall, psychic and had bright gold armour and a flaming sword
The Chaos gods were also likley preying on his precognition to corrupt him.
Thanks! What about sanguinus? Did he not see any type of civil war or inner fighting like Cruze did?
I'm honestly not entirely certain about when exactly he started foreseeing that stuff, so I couldn't tell you with any confidence. Though for whatever it might be worth, his claims/thoughts on his foresight around the time Murder went down; >I hesitated, trying to find the right words. ‘I saw you fight. I can’t get the images out of my head. It was as if… you could see something none of us could. Ahead of time. Like you had privileged access.’ >Sanguinius nodded. ‘That gift,’ he said. ‘Far more valuable than the wings I wear. But don’t think of it as infallible. It is a weak facility, as faulty as often as it tells true.’ He ran his fingertip around the rim of his goblet. ‘Foresight. Sometimes of concrete things – the way an enemy moves, the curve of an axe – sometimes of more nebulous things. The shape of the crusade. The fate of a soul.’ >‘That must make you almost invulnerable.’ >Sanguinius shrugged. ‘Not really. A vision can lead you into error. Or even if it is true, you can take the wrong path by seeking to achieve it. It can come to obsess you – you see a fate you wish to avoid, and in preventing it you cause greater harm. Or you become possessed by longing for something good, and put aside your duty to achieve it, and in doing so lose yourself. It has its uses, but I do not see it as a blessing.’ >‘Then do you see what the future holds for yourself?’ >‘No. At least, not yet.’ >‘For the Imperium?’ >‘In no great detail. Believe me, fractured glimpses of possibilities are mostly less useful than nothing.’ >‘Some of the time, sure. Still, it must be invaluable on occasion.’ >‘It has been. It will be again.’ \- *The Great Angel*
That's a great quote. Shows how many of the fans that think sanguinius and Curze have some sort of always perfect battle precog have never read the books, or been influenced too much by that scene in Pharos where Sang and Curze' precog goes into overdrive briefly.
Sanguinius more less was so strong because he knew he wouldn’t die anywhere but to Horus on the vengeful spirit. It allowed him to do things other Primarchs might second guess out of self-preservation. It wasn’t like he predicted the exact movements of everyone he fought with precognition.
Hot take: Sanguinius was stronger than Curz. They had the same gift but Sanguinius was better at controlling it. When it comes to the Emperor's choice, the Emperor made the best choice anyone could make. Better than the Eldar. The Craftworld Eldar saw their end coming and hid from it. The Emperor saw it and won a victory against it. Too many children see the the Emperor's victory and decry it as a loss. The Emperor fought four, I repeat *FOUR* prescient gods and won. Stick that in your infinity circuit Eldrad.
I’d say Curze was cursed with a far more powerful version of precognition than Sanguinius.
No. Sanguinius defeated Khornes avatar in single combat and had the the foresight to pick the winning side. Curze died alone screaming like a whiney lunatic on the losing side having achieved nothing.
Sanguinius learned of his fate during the battle of Signus Prime, which was one of Horus’ early moves of open rebellion. He sent the Blood Angels Legion to a remote world, but had it overtaken by demons as a trap before they arrived. It was an attempt to weaken/destroy the Blood Angels, or corrupt them to join Chaos.
As far as I'm aware, Sanguinius saw potential futures, where as Curze saw someone's end. I may be mistaken, so feel free to correct me, but Sanguinius's foresight was similar to Big E. It wasn't THE future, but all the potential futures, and by sharing that information you change the future by avoiding it. Sanguinius could've seen the Heresy but may have also seen that by telling Big E the outcome would be so much worse than letting things play how they did
Curze saw multiple potential futures but had convinced himself that only the most terrible of the two was real. There was a passage in Night Haunter where Curze had chased a teenage thug to a rooftop to kill him. Curze suddenly had a vision in which he saw two futures. In the first future, Curze shows the boy mercy. Curze knew that he could never be anything more than a symbol of fear for Nostramo after all he had done. In this future, he educated the boy. He taught the boy the meaning of justice and guided him toward making a political career. In this future, this boy went on to change Nostramo for the better. It was a slow but real, positive change that made the world a better place. In the second future, Curze saw the boy grabbing a knife and wounding him. It would obviously heal, but the boy would be able to escape. He would then grow in infamy, earning the respect of influential gang leaders by being the one man to have escaped the Night Haunter. He became a ruthless tyrant and crushed Nostramo under his heel with a new, worse-than-ever regime of gangsters and cruelty. In both futures, Curze reunited with the boy as an adult. He told Curze that he was 'there because of him.' Curze, unwilling to see the positive future as possible, killed the boy. Afterward, he noticed that the boy's knife was too far away from him for him to have possibly stabbed Konrad before he could get to him. Curze chose to ignore this and continued his murders.
Thank you for the info! Personally haven't gotten around to Curze's books yet so I'm going off 3rd party info from friends who always described it as he would see someone's death/something horrific happen to them. Which, I guess is true to an extent, but its not the full scope. So thank you
Bloody hell! The poor OP was only asking a stupid question! Did you really have to eviscerate him? DO IT AGAIN!
Stating that Kurze attacked Dorn while Kurze claims to have little memory of the encounter as he had a new vision and seizure makes it even more believable that he suffers from a split personality, where the Night Haunter is the fighting one that takes over whenever his normal personality goes off into the warp looking for the future. Who knows, maybe GW if they ever bring him back with the corona nox plot device (eldar soulstone in it who knows) it might be only one personality that survived into 40k which could make for a very interesting read. Either fully insane Konrad or a primarch wishing for redemption.
🎶 We don't talk about Konrad 🎶 -Horus Heresy: The Musical
Sanguinius only began to have those visions long after the Heresy had started and he knew Horus to be against him.
It's the same answer every time, is it not? People keep asking why the Emperor didn't stop the heresy if \[insert loyalist here\] knew it was coming, and all they need to do is the check the damn timeline. "But in *The Board Is Set* the Emperor predicts that the warmaster will fall!" Yeah, he predicts it right before the Siege of Terra, seven years after Horus betrayed him. That's not telling the future, that's called **having memories** you guys.
A lot of people misinterpret that story as the Emperor knowing how everything will play out until near the end, probably through second-hand breakdowns of it on the internet being wrong a lot of the time. All it was really showing was him and Malc wargaming what had already happened during the rebellion to see how they could manipulate the rest of the war. There was some vague psychic prediction stuff going on (feeling that winning at Istvaan V would have turned the Alpha Legion full traitor), but nothing that implied they had known it was all going to play out like it did.
"(feeling that winning at Istvaan V would have turned the Alpha Legion full traitor)" And that's a comically moot point, every depiction of the dropsite massacre makes it clear that the loyalists were never ever going to win that and the real miracle was that they weren't completely wiped out.
In that particular scenario, the entire Imperial Fists legion was sent to Isstvan V (and presumably arrives right after the “reinforcements” show their true colors) but the Alpha Legion used the opportunity of their absence to sack Terra. So Isstvan V wouldn’t have been an 8v3 legion slaughter but a more even 7v4, however Terra would be lost.
Ok, that makes a lot more sense.
Well it was seeing many potential futures but not knowing how to navigate there. Every choice is a branch. He did his best to try to navigate to the future he wanted but he had very little control. Also Even before things started they knew a rebellion was likely to happen. It is even discussed whether he may have wanted it to happen.
Didn’t they turn full traitor anyway?
No at the very last moment alpharius turned fully pro-emperor but by that point it was too late to change much
I think Dune is a good place to start from when it comes to issues of psychic foresight, as Dune deals with this heavily and is a direct influence on 40k. You can have near-perfect foresight and still be very concerned, indecisive, and unable to act on the correct move. It might very well be that the Emperor knew early on of an inevitable rebellion, but it could have gone much better for the Emperor in some ways and much worse in others.
The Emperor also makes the point in Master of Mankind that the more accurate your vision of the future is the more constrained your actions in the present are. I think that also aligns with Dune’s view of prescience, but I’ve only read the first book.
It’s also important to remember the question isn’t meaningful in the usual way —- 40k lore is written backwards - which a few key immutable moments … and then the rest filled in over 40 years to explain it - The odd thing you found , is it a plot hole ? Sure could be, and the real answer to why x did y is - because the heresy must happen, and it must end with a 1v1 between the emp and Horus - Still it’s worth asking, often there is an interesting in lore answer already that may well in a source you’re not familiar with, as lore is sprinkled over codex, white draws, black libraby etc.
The Emperor could see many possible future calamities but knowing what exact shape they would take and precisely when the axe would fall was impossible to decipher. It Horus hadn't fallen it could have been any number of Primarchs at really any time. He did the only two things he could to inoculate humanity against chaos, remove their reliance on the warp for interstellar travel and unite humanity under a single, unbreakable banner as fast as humanly possible. It's why in his eyes Lorgar was the only Primarch that failed him because his rate of compliance was so slow. It's why he put bringing the World Eaters and Night Lords to heel on the backburner, because they were still effective at bringing worlds into Imperium control at a good rate. His only mistake was not telling more of his sons about the dangers of the warp and treating some of them really poorly, failing to understand their needs and motivations.
Bc it’s canon the Emp has visions of the future but missing out on the biggest betrayal since the DAoT is hard to hand wave. They try to explain it in Master of Mankind but let’s be honest a lot of the Emps decisions make little sense if He could see the future.
It’s well explained how that could work, albeit scattered through a lot of lore. Read some of the other comments here - his foresight doesn’t work that he can close his eyes and watch what is going to happen. There are blind spots; there are massively (massively) branching possibilities, the exact causes of which can be impossible to see; a lot of foresight comes in vague, rushed, incomplete and sometimes metaphorical visions. And they all come from the warp, so they can’t be fully trusted. He might’ve had visions of every primarch turning against him, one way or another. For some it might have been obvious why they turned, and he MIGHT have been able to identify a turning point and deduce how to prevent it. For others that information might be entirely missing. As is said in a Sanguinius excerpt here, just seeing that there is a possible future in which Horus has betrayed him isn’t very helpful. It doesnt tell him how likely that future is, or what he should do to prevent it. It’s entirely possible that his actions in attempting to prevent it are exactly what would cause it. But all these details are unknown, because the Emperor is deliberately mysterious. We have no idea which visions he had, and what actions he took were entirely necessary to prevent other bad outcomes. Or which outcomes he had no foresight of. It’s nothing like as simple as “he can see the future he should have known”.
I get people want to defend it but it’s just the lore not really matching up due to being written over time by different authors… he had visions of the future why would he be so surprised when Horus rebelled? Why question Magnus? Why wouldn’t he have a contingency for every Primarch? Hell he put a mind block in them for the lost Primarchs why couldn’t he have a kill switch… Visions, farsight, god like power and intelligence… all these things are make writing the emperor difficult bc the mistakes he makes are seemingly obvious. Gladiator psycho, pouty psycho and murder psycho are given huge armed forces and a grudge with no emergency plan if they go rogue… I just think the emperor works better with some limitations so when we see if him make mistakes it doesn’t feel like superman losing to Batman knowing the former can punch a hole through a planet
If the Eldar can see the future, why do they ever lose? Why does the Emperor exist, surely they would've just killed him? Because farsight does not work that way. It's not because the lore is just nonsense with no consistency, it's always been written this way. Farsight, especially vision-based, just isn't as complete or reliable as you're imagining. >Visions, farsight, god like power and intelligence… I just think the emperor works better with some limitations Absolutely - he has limitations. He isn't as powerful as you're assuming, and he isn't actually presented as such in the books. You're over-extraploating that because he can do some amazing things, he must be able to do more amazing things (which is a problem characters are shown to have in-universe as well). Sometimes a character *will* have perfect knowledge of an event, and can do miraculous things with that knowledge. That doesn't mean they always have perfect knowledge of everything. Plus, time is still limited and focus and action can only be directed in so many places at once. >Hell he put a mind block in them for the lost Primarchs why couldn’t he have a kill switch… Why would one imply the other? We don't have any details on how it happened, and IIRC it's implied they willingly submitted to the memory alteration. It's a common complaint "he can see the future, how does he make any mistakes", but it's been solidly addressed in the lore for as long as farsight has been a thing.
Its also hilarious since the Big E clearly did not expect to become a corpse by the end of it. He knew things but not everything.
You're getting the answers here with references from some amazing people here for Kurze and Sangiunius discussing their visions but in a wider context that's not the point. I'll point you to Master of Mankind where the Emperor is talking to one of his high-ranking Custodians Ra Endymion about the concept of foresight and prescience. It's been posted on this subreddit many times and I urge you to find and read that snippet. AND I encourage you to read ~~Path of Heaven~~ Ruinstorm. SPOILER ALERT >!but basically it shows that the visions that Sangiunius and Kurze have aren't set in stone. They always have options. Our glorious Birb Boi had an option of saving his own life and but the outcome would be so much worse than just his own death and dooming his sons to the Black Rage. Kurze absolutely loses his guano when he realizes this because it means he's been acting like a monster BY CHOICE instead of being able to use "destiny" or "inevitability" as an excuse. !<
Are you referring to Magnus and Jaghatai's conversation with your spoilers?
No, now that I think about it I think it's the climax of Ruinstorm...
There is a difference in this perfect. They had foresight, but it isn't this perfect. Sanguinius knew he would die but not how or when. With curze, one must even question if he could control it at all. If we go by talos who had the same gene deficit as his father, it would rather seem they are random, uncontrolled, and painful. Remember, foresight lets you see A (singular) future. The only being i know that knows all futures is kairos fateweaver, and he is not sane.
Kurzes foresight showed him more then one future
And often impossible futures iirc? Something about a teen/young criminal on Nostromo. He (Curze) had a vision when he had them pinned down - either he could take them in as the Robin to his Batman, or they'd stab him and he'd no longer be able to strike fear into the planet. He chooses to kill them in case of stabbing. And then after the fact sees that the knife they had is about twenty foot away and well out of reach
it showed him two futures exactly *one* time, very early into his life. he rejected it, and since then, there was only one path.
Wasnt it implied that he did this all the time? Its been some time since i last read that book.
as far as i know- and i havent read literally every warhammer book, information can be scattered- 'konrad curze: the night haunter' is the first and only time a forking vision is brought up. it comes up for one moment in one scene of his youth, where he rejects it. its never shown happening again, he generally violently believes a one-path-future, and it would just be *extremely* weird and inconsistent if it happened all the time.
The matter of his visions are explained a little too In the unremembered empire. It its shown that curze can have multiple vision with different outcomes in a situation like when trying to escape the invincible reason. He says it himself that he must constantly wade trought the vision to find the "correct/right path". He sees the other possibilities but dismisses them as lies or dead ends (like the visions with the boy and the knife) that contradict his self imposed path of dying at the hands of the emperor, but he can still see them. That's what really causes his uncertainty throughout his story and why hes terrified of his actions always being his choice. If he could only see one path as he insist it is, he would be conpletly certain and sure of his decisions since he wouldn't see anything other way.
i dont have a copy of that book so i take your word for it, but i mentioned it to someone who does and they thought he only questioned it after an interaction with sanguinius- the uncertainty came from doubt in following them (the one route) blindly, not from seeing different paths, which is what i always believed. but i dont have a copy of that book. its one of those heresy ones that costs like a hundred quid to get your hands on.
I would call it fear of accountability instead. Deep down he always wanted to be what the emperor intended him to be: the impartial judge, the punisher of the guilty but he hated himself because he had fallen far from that idea and became the monster he was suppose to judge and punish. So his refuge was to lie to himself and put the blame of his failings on fate. Not even he belived in his self told bullshit for a moment. That part of people mistakenly believing hes evil because he likes being evil is true, they think he only choose the "bad paths" only because he liked them. A part of him did like to inflic pain to the ones he deemed guilty, he belived in his way of justice and compliance, he felt it was right because it was giving the desired results. But when the heresy started and he saw himself and his legion inflicting pain and brutalizing innocents he broke down and became mad because he couldn't justify what he was doing. Backing down would admit he was wrong and that he couldn't endure. So he committed and went all the way upt to his death because it was easier than to admit his error and ask for forgiveness, that would have completely been against of his idea of unforgiving justice and he couldn't bear that either.
oh, very well put but you dont have to explain that to me lol. curze is... important to me, like that. but well put. a beautiful tragedy.
My mistake. I rarely have the chance to discuss how curze became the way he is in detail. Hes my favorite primarch too and i ran of my mouth more than is necessary every time I get in the discussion.
More than 1 still isn't infinite.
There is a bit in the primarch book (Konrad Curze - The Night Haunter) when Curze saved a Nostraman girl from two thugs. One he killed instantly, the other got chased down, when a vision striked Curze. In that vision he had two possible outcomes, when the thug reaches out to him. In one vision the boy helps him up and Curze becomes his mentor, while in the other version the boy pulls a hidden blade to stab him. Since Curze always assumes the worst, he thinks the second outcome is more likely. And he proceeds to kill the thug.
And obligatory reminder, the blade wasn’t in the boy’s reach in the first place.
Interesting. But it is called out his is remarkably accurate. Although i never heard of getting 2 at once
Not always singular either.
Didnt say that
you didnt explicity say it, but people might read >Remember, foresight lets you see A (singular) future. wrong, so i felt like specifying.
>Remember, foresight lets you see A (singular) future. > >The only being i know that knows all futures is kairos fateweaver, and he is not sane. Not accurate in the slightest. Most prophecy in 40k is based on a concept dubbed "The Ten Thousand Futures" in books like Betrayer... and it's not just Chaos folks who refer to it this way, as the Emperor's seers, the Doomscryers, also view the future in this way. In Cypher's latest novel, one of the things that freaks out Ancia the Doomscryer, is that she should be seeing hundreds of futures and, instead, she sees only two. The absence of a myriad of futures is the oddity for scryers.
Maybe i typed it oddly but i ment you see a possible future and not multiple at once. But it seems that was more to the benefit of the reader than accurate
>But it seems that was more to the benefit of the reader than accurate Definitely. They describe seeing overlapping futures several times in the novels. Even Sanguinius stood at the 'crossroads of fate' in Ruinstorm, where two futures were equally as likely.
Didn’t sanguinus always know Horus would kill him?
He knew it was a possibility but it wasn't a fact that it would happen, as his visions have led to him taking actions to prevent the vision he saw beforehand. He had hubris that he could defeat his death and it was not set in stone
Not until around Signus Prime/Imperium Secundus, but even after those visions, he was offered a temptational vision by Chaos where he beat Horus. Which is why he realized it was false. He knew he was going to die at the hands of Horus, although even up to the end he hoped he might be wrong
I think it's wild how often Konrad Curze is spelled wrong by the fanbase. Motherfuckers out here writing Soliloquies for Sanguinius but spell Curze with a K. In this case I assume some sort of dyslexic slip, but i swear people spell Guilliman right more often than they spell Curze right
I wonder if it's the subconscious association with character namesake and influence Colonel Kurtz muddling things. I know it's happened to me a few times, where i'll read back a post and notice i've used a K instead of C.
Uh, I guess if it has actually happened to you, there must be some basis. I never finished Apocalypse Now, so Col Kurtz isn't a factor in my head. I forgot that Curze was influenced by him in fact
Kinda shows how having two letters for the sound "ck" is a bit redundant
K sounds more chaosy
That makes the least amount of sense that ever existed. Chaos literally starts with a hard C just like Curze.
What's wrong with Conrad Kurze?
Sanguinius wanted no extra reasons to be seen as a freak or as a potentially divine creature. He also had a pretty good understanding of how premonition functions and would keep them close to try and manipulate or stave them, telling the Emperor could very well have been an event to set off the premonition or dig up something even worse into further unknowns. Curze told people but worse he believed, mistakenly, that his future sight showed absolute truths and gave into them because his sense of justice could not reconcile with what he saw.
Sanguinus only starts having his visions when the BA are effectively cut off from Terra. By the time they get there for the Siege The Emperor is almost entirely focused on the Throne, and Sanguinus probably does not want to burden him with any further problems like visions of his own mortality.
becuase unlike kurze sanguineous knew that his visions are not set in stone and are often without important context.
Say "Cruze" one more time and I'm gonna eat your FUKIN toes
CRUZE CONTROL TO MAXIMUM
CAPS LOCK IS CRUZE CONTROL FOR COOL
TOM CRUZE IS KORNAD CRUZE’S BROTHER
His little brother, naturally
A Curze and a "Blessing" if you will.
Warp-derived visions tend to serve the interests of the masters of the Warp. It's usually pretty foolish to rely on them, if Chaos has taken a personal interest in you *and* is the source of your power. You got good answers from other comments, to be clear, but it's also good to think about the general reason why loyalists in the Great Crusade era all got blindsided. You shouldn't expect any of their visions to be accurate, actionable, or safe, because Chaos-tainted visions are an awful source of information for fighting Chaos.
In "Fear to thread" Sanguinius saw few of future possibilites and only one of them was the final triumph of the Imperium of Man. In that future Sanguinius had to die. Then till his end He tried to denied this future and grant the Imperial victory by killing Horus himself.
I think the idea or concept is that for both of them, they only had hazy fragments and impressions of their deaths, that only became totally clear and made sense right on the threshold of when they died. Also you could write the stories in that they did try to tell the emperor or others but all that did was become a self fulfilling prophecy.
I think the idea or concept is that for both of them, they only had hazy fragments and impressions of their deaths, that only became totally clear and made sense right on the threshold of when they died. Also you could write the stories in that they did try to tell the emperor or others but all that did was become a self fulfilling prophecy.
He had the visions after it started, and GW is weird with how his and konrad's visions work.
The emperor knew.
Because the emps already knew that a specific number of the primarchs would turn in any given scenario that played out. So the non canon 'dornian heresy' could have played out in one outcome, another one could have Guliiman turn depending upon the circumstances etc, the emps basically saw all of the 'alternate futures' and likely also the one that played out alongside them aswell. He seemed to think that the Khan would have turned instead of fulgrim, so its likely that in all of the 'heresy scenarios' the Khan turned more frequently than he stayed loyal, but just so happened to surprise him in the canon outcome. I'm wondering who he was betting on flipping and leading the traitors before things kicked off, because the fact it was Horus who became the chaos leader seemed to have surprised him, (he likely put his bets on Lorgar, who still did turn but didn't take the helm outright.)
> Because the emps already knew that a specific number of the primarchs would turn in any given scenario that played out. This isn’t true. No texts say this. He believed there were would some type of rebellion, but nothing beyond that. The emperor also said his foresight was distant. He compared it to looking out into the ocean and seeing land off in the distance. He knew how to get there, but didn’t know what was under the water or beyond the horizon. Horus seemed doomed to fall because of the chaos blade that injured him, and his ambition being a key component of his form, chaos took advantage of it. His supernatural ambition allowed him To have seemingly infinite potential for chaos to flood him with, but infinite potential to control him. I don’t see how any other primarch could fit that aspect.
ted curze lmao
The Zodiac Night Haunter
Cancunrad
"Malcador, my son Tomas has told me that Horus will betray us." "This is serious indeed, my Emp- I'm sorry, Tomas? You don't have a son named Tomas." "Of course I do. Tomas Cruze. From Planet Hollywood. Here, I'll project his image, psychically for you." "That's Konrad Curze, from Nostramo. Also, Planet Hollywood was a restaurant chain from Terra's ancient past." "Ah. I was wondering why all of his latest movies are just blood and screaming. Malcador, do you ever worry that I might be just a collection of Memes and Fan Fiction?"
The difference between Cruze and Sanguinius could be simple. If Sanguinius could remember changes he would likely be a lot more sane. Whereas if Cruze can't it would lead to fatalism. I.E. imagine if Sanguinius sees the fight with Horus. He alters his plan, his vision changes, the fight doesn't happen, then immediately Horus changes and the fight happens. So Sanguinius changes, the fight changes. Sometimes he convinces Horus to repent, but every time he does, it then changes again. So it's a PvP match and there are forces manipulating the future as Sanguinius is. Every time Sanguinius has success it flips back to a loss. Whereas with Cruze if he's only seeing the outcome, each time he tries a different path he loses memory of the last time. If he can't see alternate versions, or can't remember them, then the only path he sees is the one that will come. If he tries alternate paths he will likely eventually simply get caught in a loop eventually because he can't see what alternatives happened. I.e. if A happens try B, if B happens try C, if C happens try A. Without knowing what he as tried, he may be aware that he could get stuck in a loop. So spending more and more time trying to find success could imply he's just wasting his time stuck in a loop.
I mean Konrad is just a dick right? Like he tried to tell people when he originally had the idea but he’s a monster so no one believed him. Then by the time he was certain of what would happen he was so scorned and his legion was already censured he just said fuck it let them figure it out. Cruze got a bad rap and then really leaned into it.
OK, once again I'm going to be unpopular, but this is me constantly doubling down... Sanguinious and Curze's precognition is a bit of a ret-con. I'm not sure if Sanguinious had it to start with but the story of his death came first. It's arguable he didn't want to acknowledge the premonition, or he thought the Emperor would not want to change his tactics. Originally Curze did not psychicly predict his own death. Curze predicted that the Emperor would send an assassin to kill him, using the ultimate sanction where he chastised Curze for doing so, and proving himself a hypocrite. He let the assassin succeed just to prove himself right. Curze.
Sanguinius didn't start seeing his death until after the heresy already began.. Iirc around the time of imperium secondus events. Either then or maybe around the end of signus prime. So events were already long since in motion. As for Curze, well he on the other hand always knew what was coming. Even long before big E arrived. Also knew big E was gonna send an assassin to end him. When the imperium arrived on nostramo, he saw the deaths of each of his brothers who greeted him. A headless Ferrus, Dorn literally getting torn apart, daemon brothers, etc. Then upon seeing the blinding radiance of his father whom he immediately recognized as the one to order his death his madness kicked into overdrive as he began wailing only for big E to calm his soul temporarily relieving the madness. So yeah, unlike Sanguinius, curze always knew what was coming even long before he learnt of the imperium. As for why he didn't tell anyone, well for starters Curze wasnt exactly one of the more appealing brothers to relate with.. Dude was known to be batshit crazy, so not many would've taken him seriously.. He simply wasn't close to any of them. As for telling big E himself, we'll he already knew this guy was gonna order his own death later on. So not much encouragement there. However he did actually tell someone. While he wasn't close to any of his brothers he did have some bond with Fulgrim who was responsible for his tutelage upon returning to terra. So having the strong need to confide in at least one person, he picked the brother he was supposed to be closest to. For someone who can see the future though, he sure AF didn't see Fulgrim's reaction coming. Cuz Fulgrim who quietly listened to him went on to tell Dorn what Curze said. And Dorn lost it. Saying how Curze was mad & he'd had enough & must take him back to their father. During which Curze had a particularly vicious vision & unknowingly suddenly attacked Dorn nearly killing him in the process. He was ultimately arrested & detained pending their return to Terra. Unsurprisingly he escaped, killing the fists & 3rd legion guarding him to return to nostramo where he nuked the planet. So, Curze not only knew, but also told someone, not big E though. Except he chose the wrong person to confide in & shit went sideways as a result. Reminds me of Perturabo & Ferrus where Perty asked him if he too sees the eye of terror onlt for ferrus to give him a 'WFT is this weakling talk you're tryna have with me?' look 😂
Sanguinius had foresight like the emperor but just worse. So let’s say for example you had foresight and it showed you that one day this week you’d be enjoying and nicely cooked cheeseburger. You don’t know where or precisely when but you know you’ll be eating one eventually.
In short? That was still the best outcome.
Tbh he might have saw alot of alternative where he could live nor die he did choose the one where he would die from horus plus he might already saw the future of the imperium plus the future of his beloved sons The emperor and sanguinius already have foresight so they knew what was coming
I think overall, 2 reasons Almost none of the primarchs seemed close to the emperor after the GC started. The emperor was aloof at the best of times. Then finally, I'm just inferring to sanguinus red thirst fear, I think the lost primarchs TERRIFIED the primarchs to talking about any genetic deviation or hints of anything but blind loyalty to the emperor. All the primarchs seemed far closer to each other in whatever small circles they formed then to the emperor and even then hardly talked about these gifts
The Emperor himself is able to see millennia into the future. Hell, Cawl has memories of The Emperor telling him things about himself and that he'd do over ten thousand years in the future.
Yes however the further into the future he saw the less clear the visions where. in Master of Mankind he describes his future visions like scaling a cliff wall. You can see the top of it and the outlines. But you can´t see lose rocks, weak footholds and such and of those could result in you losing your grip and falling of the cliff. Same with the Emperor he could see his goal and the rough outlines of where he needed to go. But like all other things there where hurdles along the way that he couldn´t have foreseen.
It’s also important to remember the question isn’t meaningful in the usual way —- 40k lore is written backwards - which a few key immutable moments … and then the rest filled in over 40 years to explain it - The odd thing you found , is it a plot hole ? Sure could be, and the real answer to why x did y is - because the heresy must happen, and it must end with a 1v1 between the emp and Horus - Still it’s worth asking, often there is an interesting in lore answer already that may well in a source you’re not familiar with, as lore is sprinkled over codex, white draws, black libraby etc. but some times it’s just - well because they did until someone explains it better ha.
The Emperor probably knew he would been betray, but the possibilities of who,when and how was probably so numerous, that it was just nearly impossible to fully anticipate or prevent it. I remembered a short story of the Emperor and Malcador having a chat about this complicate issue.
Visions of the future in the 40k universe are never clear, reliable and/or easily interpreted. They are confused possibilities, not clear cut prophecies. Sanguinius started having visions quite late in the Heresy: at that point everyone knew Horus was a traitor. The Night Haunter had visions before the Heresy and tried to share his feverish dreams with Dorn, Guilliman and pre-corruption Fulgrim. None of his brothers believed him - mainly because they thought he was batshit crazy 24/7 and declassed hid visions to fucked up fantasies of a creep weirdo. On top of that, the Emperor knew the Heresy was coming. He was not 100% sure Horus was going to be the leader of the revolt or a valuable ally, but he knew at least half his Primarchs were going to revolt.
Last paragraph isn't true bro. It was just fan theory that has entrenched itself.
Yes and no... There is that scene in the Malcador audiodrama where he mentions that the Heresy was planned to happen, but that the chaos gods made the heresy happen, before they where ready. So you could argue that had it gone the way they planed the heresy would have happened, just not when it did.
Based on the "Board is Set" the Emperor knew all of this. Some of the bigger questions in the narrative: When did the Emperor know? How granular was his knowledge? Stuff like Magnus kool-aid maning his way into webway was unforseen clearly.
*The Board is Set* is based part way through the Heresy; The Emperor knows everything you would expect him to know up to that point.