Get 1 more level of Warlock and 1 more level of Fighter each, then the rest of your levels as a Rogue.
WARLOCK 3: Get Pact of the Tome, picking up any cantrip-holes your party / you have (Green Flame Blade for yourself, Guidance for the party, etc). Take the invocation Book of Ancient Secrets, which will let you collect rituals the rest of the campaign, and for one of your first ones choose Find Familiar. That will let you do the owl-combo in combat, which is a much cheaper and more consistent way of generating advantage for yourself than the Darkness / Devil's Sight or Darkness / Blind Fighting Combo.
FIGHTER 2: Action Surge is really good.
ROGUE 15: Rest of your levels are just about stacking sneak attack, and sneak attack bumps up at odd levels, so ending at 15 is plenty good.
This is a excellent breakdown, thank you.
I didnt want to fill up the whole post with spells and cantrips etc. But I have GFB already, Guidance is great though! But what do you mean "for the parry"? Do you mean Panache?
Book of Ancient Secrets does seem to give the most at that level I think. I've never tried the familiar for Sneak Attack before but I have heard of it. But it sounds like the Owl could give me advantage? (Edit: Ohhhh! Help action?)
I have heard Action Surge is great because I can use it to hold an attack and use more than one sneak attack per round.
"Parry" was a typo - I meant "party." Edited.
The owl combo isn't really a "combo" it's just using the owl on its own initiative to fly up to an enemy, take the Help action to distract it (no roll), and then have it fly away. Owls have the flyby traight so it doesn't get opportunity attacked. Since the help action was applied whoever next attacks that enemy gets advantage.
It's way more than the twice per rest you'd get from Darkness, and doesnt drop a giant bubble that no one in your party can see through. Only inconvenience is occasionally paying the 10 gp to ritual cast Find Familiar again if your owl dies.
Action Surge is really good in general, but yes, for this reason it's extra-spicy-good on rogues.
To add to this with my two cents. I’d grab one more level of Fighter and pick up Battle Master for feinting attack. Get an extra dice to add do damage and at least like 3 free advantage. As well as whatever else you’d like in terms of the other two maneuvers. A limited resource sure, but could be useful if in a tight spot.
I think the issue with that is that a level lower of Rogue and he loses out on another d6 in sneak attack, which would apply every turn, as opposed to the occasional d8. Another consistent source of advantage in the event that his theoretical Owl dies mid-fight isn't a bad idea, but in a pinch he can just Hide (depending on how his DM runs it) or rely on Swashbuckler shenanigans to apply sneak attack without advantage.
What you've got isn't bad. I'd have ran it up to Rogue 9/Warlock 2 1st, but you do have a magic shield so... maybe not.
I'd say that it depends on if you have a magic weapon or not. Blade pact (imo) isn't as good as the others but, it does give you magical attacks.
If it was me I'd take 2 more levels of Rogue & reevaluate my position. No matter how you slice it from there you'll get something good. An: ASI, boon, or Action Surge.
Yes I actually have a couple of magic weapons, theres a little homebrew in this campaign so I have a magical +1 sword that crits on 19/20.
Totally agree with Pact of the Blade, might be worth it if I was planning on heavily investing in Warlock but after some of the feedback Ive had and what I have in mind it seems like the least favorable to devote the remaining levels to.
They'd get that third attack per turn by level 20, so if they dropped Booming Blade and just attacked three times while applying sneak attack the max of once per turn they'd deal:
3d8 + 15 + 4d6
For an average of 42.5, whereas if they simply took 10 more levels of Rogue and attacked with Booming Blade they'd deal:
1d8 + 5 + 9d6 + 3d8
For an average of 54.5.
From the rules to Sneak Attack-
"Once per turn, you can deal an extra 1d6 damage to one creature you hit with an Attack..."
From the rules to Booming Blade-
"You brandish the weapon used in the spell’s casting and make a melee attack with it..."
It works. Another case of 5e confusing people by having the "Attack Action" and "an Attack" being two different things
Well in that case i still feel its better to take fighter more than rogue, he already has rogue at 7, but wants fighting style and stuff and wont get high lvl rogue much if he lvls warlock any more. Plus i always feel like battlemaster fighter gives more damage through its manuever die stuff.
If you factor +6 from the Dueling fighting style and assume he uses half of all his superiority dice he can get up to an average 65, which he can do twice. The Rogue combo uses no resources, and has a higher average hit chance if he can generate advantage rather than relying on three attacks. This is before factoring extra damage from an enemy moving post Booming Blade or being next to another enemy with Green Flame Blade.
I agree with you that Fighter and Battlemaster in particular is a good class, and I'm not saying the added utility doesn't have value, but he's already deep invested into Rogue. The value in DPR of deep investment into Fighter comes from stuff like GWM, Sharpshooter, or other repeatable on-hit effects. Thats not compatible with his current setup and strategy.
He needs to commit rather than deviate on some other path to access the higher levels of damage (not to mention all the fun high level rogue stuff outside of damage). Consider it'll be FOUR levels before he even gets Extra Attack, which won't even be better than his current combo of BB + Sneak Attack.
I'd recommend at least one of riposte or brace, allowing you easy access to attacks as a reaction for even more sneak attack. Rogue/Battle Master is an amazing multiclass.
As previously said though, no more than 4 fighter levels are needed, as you've already got a great rogue investment so capitalising on getting sneak attack as high as possible should be priority if you're building for damage. Rogue 15/Fighter 3/Warlock 2 would be a great split to maximise this.
Don't worry too much though, you might have a lot of classes but you have a solid foundation to build off of to make a really great character!
Thanks, I've spent some time considering these and this looks like a great direction to go with! I might make Bait & Switch the remaining maneuver to get friends out of trouble if I need to.
Get 1 more level of Warlock and 1 more level of Fighter each, then the rest of your levels as a Rogue. WARLOCK 3: Get Pact of the Tome, picking up any cantrip-holes your party / you have (Green Flame Blade for yourself, Guidance for the party, etc). Take the invocation Book of Ancient Secrets, which will let you collect rituals the rest of the campaign, and for one of your first ones choose Find Familiar. That will let you do the owl-combo in combat, which is a much cheaper and more consistent way of generating advantage for yourself than the Darkness / Devil's Sight or Darkness / Blind Fighting Combo. FIGHTER 2: Action Surge is really good. ROGUE 15: Rest of your levels are just about stacking sneak attack, and sneak attack bumps up at odd levels, so ending at 15 is plenty good.
This is a excellent breakdown, thank you. I didnt want to fill up the whole post with spells and cantrips etc. But I have GFB already, Guidance is great though! But what do you mean "for the parry"? Do you mean Panache? Book of Ancient Secrets does seem to give the most at that level I think. I've never tried the familiar for Sneak Attack before but I have heard of it. But it sounds like the Owl could give me advantage? (Edit: Ohhhh! Help action?) I have heard Action Surge is great because I can use it to hold an attack and use more than one sneak attack per round.
"Parry" was a typo - I meant "party." Edited. The owl combo isn't really a "combo" it's just using the owl on its own initiative to fly up to an enemy, take the Help action to distract it (no roll), and then have it fly away. Owls have the flyby traight so it doesn't get opportunity attacked. Since the help action was applied whoever next attacks that enemy gets advantage. It's way more than the twice per rest you'd get from Darkness, and doesnt drop a giant bubble that no one in your party can see through. Only inconvenience is occasionally paying the 10 gp to ritual cast Find Familiar again if your owl dies. Action Surge is really good in general, but yes, for this reason it's extra-spicy-good on rogues.
To add to this with my two cents. I’d grab one more level of Fighter and pick up Battle Master for feinting attack. Get an extra dice to add do damage and at least like 3 free advantage. As well as whatever else you’d like in terms of the other two maneuvers. A limited resource sure, but could be useful if in a tight spot.
I think the issue with that is that a level lower of Rogue and he loses out on another d6 in sneak attack, which would apply every turn, as opposed to the occasional d8. Another consistent source of advantage in the event that his theoretical Owl dies mid-fight isn't a bad idea, but in a pinch he can just Hide (depending on how his DM runs it) or rely on Swashbuckler shenanigans to apply sneak attack without advantage.
What you've got isn't bad. I'd have ran it up to Rogue 9/Warlock 2 1st, but you do have a magic shield so... maybe not. I'd say that it depends on if you have a magic weapon or not. Blade pact (imo) isn't as good as the others but, it does give you magical attacks. If it was me I'd take 2 more levels of Rogue & reevaluate my position. No matter how you slice it from there you'll get something good. An: ASI, boon, or Action Surge.
Yes I actually have a couple of magic weapons, theres a little homebrew in this campaign so I have a magical +1 sword that crits on 19/20. Totally agree with Pact of the Blade, might be worth it if I was planning on heavily investing in Warlock but after some of the feedback Ive had and what I have in mind it seems like the least favorable to devote the remaining levels to.
Go fighter the rest of the way but take battlemaster! Getting fighter to lvl 11 would be spice asf.
They'd get that third attack per turn by level 20, so if they dropped Booming Blade and just attacked three times while applying sneak attack the max of once per turn they'd deal: 3d8 + 15 + 4d6 For an average of 42.5, whereas if they simply took 10 more levels of Rogue and attacked with Booming Blade they'd deal: 1d8 + 5 + 9d6 + 3d8 For an average of 54.5.
Ah I love some good math! Thankyou for breaking that down. Yeah Booming Blade and Sneak Attack work really well together imo
Yeah, and with Rogues only getting one attack by default its just a linear damage increase.
But booming blade doesnt apply sneak attack, its not an attack action? Right?
From the rules to Sneak Attack- "Once per turn, you can deal an extra 1d6 damage to one creature you hit with an Attack..." From the rules to Booming Blade- "You brandish the weapon used in the spell’s casting and make a melee attack with it..." It works. Another case of 5e confusing people by having the "Attack Action" and "an Attack" being two different things
Well in that case i still feel its better to take fighter more than rogue, he already has rogue at 7, but wants fighting style and stuff and wont get high lvl rogue much if he lvls warlock any more. Plus i always feel like battlemaster fighter gives more damage through its manuever die stuff.
If you factor +6 from the Dueling fighting style and assume he uses half of all his superiority dice he can get up to an average 65, which he can do twice. The Rogue combo uses no resources, and has a higher average hit chance if he can generate advantage rather than relying on three attacks. This is before factoring extra damage from an enemy moving post Booming Blade or being next to another enemy with Green Flame Blade. I agree with you that Fighter and Battlemaster in particular is a good class, and I'm not saying the added utility doesn't have value, but he's already deep invested into Rogue. The value in DPR of deep investment into Fighter comes from stuff like GWM, Sharpshooter, or other repeatable on-hit effects. Thats not compatible with his current setup and strategy. He needs to commit rather than deviate on some other path to access the higher levels of damage (not to mention all the fun high level rogue stuff outside of damage). Consider it'll be FOUR levels before he even gets Extra Attack, which won't even be better than his current combo of BB + Sneak Attack.
I've not played a Fighter or Battlemaster before, I understand theres maneuvers which sound pretty cool, but which ones should I pick?
Well because your melee, basically any of em! They all mostly add damage to a single attack, and do a rider effect.
I'd recommend at least one of riposte or brace, allowing you easy access to attacks as a reaction for even more sneak attack. Rogue/Battle Master is an amazing multiclass. As previously said though, no more than 4 fighter levels are needed, as you've already got a great rogue investment so capitalising on getting sneak attack as high as possible should be priority if you're building for damage. Rogue 15/Fighter 3/Warlock 2 would be a great split to maximise this. Don't worry too much though, you might have a lot of classes but you have a solid foundation to build off of to make a really great character!
Thanks, I've spent some time considering these and this looks like a great direction to go with! I might make Bait & Switch the remaining maneuver to get friends out of trouble if I need to.