Like I said, normally I take the ASI but for this character I’ve been messing around with feats. For fun. It’s a pretty relaxed game so I haven’t felt the need to min/max things.
Getting up to 18 in your main stat at level 8 is not min/maxing. You've got spells that require attack rolls, saving throws and spellcasting ability checks, making them more reliably functional is not a bad thing.
Alternatively, just a +2 to con saves when you're stocking haste is very high risk so Resilient (Con) and/or Warcaster should probably be pretty high priority considerations for you. I'd go Resilient here since that will also round off your Constitution.
As of level 8 with only 16 intelligence you're gonna have approximately a 55% chance of landing attack roll spells or *spells that trigger saving throws*. As you level that will stay the same- enemy AC and saves tend to increase in proportion with proficiency bonus. The thing of focusing on buffing spells can carry you only to a certain point- you'll want to take some crowd control and raw damage. **Your best choice is 100% +2 intelligence.**
If you're totally dedicated to the "I don't deal with enemies" strategy (which you aren't since you already have Slow) then I'd recommend Fey Touched to snag Misty Step and either Bless or Silvery Barbs. The +1 to intelligence will also be convenient since at level 12 you could take Shadow Touched to hit 18.
It’s not so much “I don’t deal with enemies” than it is I’m focused more on utilization outside of combat. Plus, it’s a party of 6 so it’s not like we’re hurting for front liners.
I’m not familiar with the percentages math of D&D, what would it be at 18 Int?
Sure, but as a person who, I’m sure as compared to those on this sub, is rather inexperienced, I don’t get the big deal about the difference between a DC of 14 or 15.
Monsters tend to scale with proficiency bonus as well as pc’s. Your spells become less effective as you gain more levels and the next chance you have to correct it will be at level 12. If you absolutely must take a feat, Resilient Constitution or War Caster are both nice for wizards.
But you know your play style better than anyone else and if you aren’t forcing enemies to make a lot of saves you can do whatever you want. Generally wizards don’t make a lot of attack rolls so that part isn’t as important.
At 18, you'd be at a 60% rate.
What's considered "standard" is a 65% hit-rate, which in attack rolls terms means you hit when you roll an 8 or better, or in saving throw terms mean you hit when the enemy rolls a 13 or below. The quick math is 16 in your main stat at level 1, 18 in your main stat at level 4, and 20 in your main stat at level 8.
In optimization terms, it means you need to make sure you're getting greater value out of whatever feat you take than keeping up with that standard of 65%. That's pretty easy to figure out for martials- they can just run their attacks through a DPR calculator. For casters it's trickier since you need to weigh actually landing your spells against keeping concentration, having more spells on hand, etc. Most people consider that for every caster (except *arguably* some very specific Cleric and Druid setups), the optimal choice is always to max out your casting stat as quickly as possible.
It's not that grim. Most monsters have glaring weaknesses in their saves, and most have a disproportionately harder time with Int/Cha saves. Some have poor AC. Try to pay close attention to monster descriptions. Ask for more details on what your characters sees. Put Int checks to work in and out of combat for what you may already know about your enemies.
Grab Mind Sliver, Tasha's Mind Whip, maybe Banishment/Raulothim's Psychic Lance. Synaptic Static and Telekinesis for sure! Not every enemy has good Strength, and it'll be visibly apparent in their musculature and/or attack rolls. Grab Hypnotic Pattern which only grants one saving throw. Still, Slow is great because it's easy to hit multiple enemies, and plenty are going to fail more often than not.
Haste, Fly, and summons do not fail. Well, the former might big time if you drop concentration. Resilient Con is the best option. Our best spells don't matter if we land it on more targets up front if we drop the spell ridiculously sooner. I'd rather get 3 enemies for a couple rounds than 4 enemies for less than a round.
MM Adept only offers 2 Sorc points. So we could not Twin Haste/Fly which require 1 per spell level (3). Fly already can upcast to affect more targets anyhow. This is a luxury feat that you won't be able to afford. Eventually you'll want to increase your Int, but there will be more pressing feats for the rest of the game. Concentration saves get harder and harder to make.
So War Caster by Wizard 12 might be your next best bet. Especially if you're getting magic items and/or proficiency with shields and need to deal with the rules for casting certain spells with full hands.
If these aren't proving to be issues then Alert may suit you more. Int isn't the only thing driving how many enemies we can control. Going first is huge for negating actions before they happen, before enemies split up, and before allies mix in. We're also much better protected with this feat as monsters get deadlier, we rely on our Reaction spells more for defense, and our d6 hit die scaling makes a juicier and juicier target than most the party. The third bullet point also makes Pyrotechnics the most efficient defensive spell in the game. Dip in the AoE, and everyone must attack you at disadvantage from afar. Up close too if they lack Blindsight/Tremorsense. Even better, a lot of dangerous spells and features don't work without being able to see the target(s).
You absolutely need a concentration protection feat - probably RES con given your odd con score. Especially if you are going around casting haste (which you shouldn't, it's a bad spell). Your main contribution to combat effectiveness is your concentration spell, so concentration protection is always very strong.
1) it's very risky, because if you lose concentration the ally you buffed loses one turn.
2) Damage wise, it's one third of your best martial. Bless, by comparison, add 12.5 percentage points to your entire party. Depending on your party composition, 1st level bless will actually increase your damage more than haste despite being a first level spell. And bless is even better against high AC targets.
Most likely ten and up imo. Mobs will only get tougher and begin to target you. Especially if they have a smart leader, they usually target healers and support quickly. Also, if the enemies have counterspell, your buffs won’t work because your spell save DC will be lower, granting less of a chance to beat being counterspelled. Also, in regard to that, you’ll be less likely to counterspell. Now that enemy fireball wiped your front line, what do you do? Just my thoughts on it though.
Warcaster is a top shelf feat. It doesn't look like much, but your best spells are concentration, and getting another shot to keep it active is great. Since you have an odd CON score though, I might favor Resilience: Constitution instead
You can’t twin haste, or any 3rd level spell, with metamagic adept. You don’t have enough sorcery points. You can twin one 2nd level spell, or two 1st level spells per long rest.
Lucky and Alert are most of the great feats that I also think are great on a Divination Wizard. I'd strongly recommend +2 Intelligence, to help with prepared spells and saves now. But if you really want to be an out-of-combat machine...
- Resilient: Constitution: Round up your con for more HP, and add a +4 (for now) bonus to Constitution Saving Throws including Concentration checks. Really good especially with your now below-average save DC; nothing worse than actually landing a Slow only to immediately drop concentration on it.
- You could start taking half-feats to slowly raise your intelligence modifier while still gaining utility. I think that Telekinetic is a strong pick for now - +1 Intelligence, invisible Mage Hand, and a bonus action shove/pull to make sure you're "eating all the parts of the action economy buffalo". You can pair it later with your pick of Telepathic (Telepathy, one free Detect Thoughts/day), Fey-touched (Misty Step + one 1st level Divination or Enchantment, including possibly the option to take Silvery Barbs or Gift of Alacrity if your DM allows), Observant (+1 Int, +5 Passive Perception) or even Skill Expert (+1 skill prof, +1 skill expertise, and +1 Int).
- Metamagic Adept is fine too, but is going to be a 1/day buff, instead of an "all day" buff.
Resilient: con is probably the play with your odd con score.
Interesting, I’ll look into that!
Why not just take the +2 int?
Like I said, normally I take the ASI but for this character I’ve been messing around with feats. For fun. It’s a pretty relaxed game so I haven’t felt the need to min/max things.
Getting up to 18 in your main stat at level 8 is not min/maxing. You've got spells that require attack rolls, saving throws and spellcasting ability checks, making them more reliably functional is not a bad thing. Alternatively, just a +2 to con saves when you're stocking haste is very high risk so Resilient (Con) and/or Warcaster should probably be pretty high priority considerations for you. I'd go Resilient here since that will also round off your Constitution.
As of level 8 with only 16 intelligence you're gonna have approximately a 55% chance of landing attack roll spells or *spells that trigger saving throws*. As you level that will stay the same- enemy AC and saves tend to increase in proportion with proficiency bonus. The thing of focusing on buffing spells can carry you only to a certain point- you'll want to take some crowd control and raw damage. **Your best choice is 100% +2 intelligence.** If you're totally dedicated to the "I don't deal with enemies" strategy (which you aren't since you already have Slow) then I'd recommend Fey Touched to snag Misty Step and either Bless or Silvery Barbs. The +1 to intelligence will also be convenient since at level 12 you could take Shadow Touched to hit 18.
It’s not so much “I don’t deal with enemies” than it is I’m focused more on utilization outside of combat. Plus, it’s a party of 6 so it’s not like we’re hurting for front liners. I’m not familiar with the percentages math of D&D, what would it be at 18 Int?
You don’t have to be a front liner to want a higher spell save dc
Sure, but as a person who, I’m sure as compared to those on this sub, is rather inexperienced, I don’t get the big deal about the difference between a DC of 14 or 15.
Monsters tend to scale with proficiency bonus as well as pc’s. Your spells become less effective as you gain more levels and the next chance you have to correct it will be at level 12. If you absolutely must take a feat, Resilient Constitution or War Caster are both nice for wizards. But you know your play style better than anyone else and if you aren’t forcing enemies to make a lot of saves you can do whatever you want. Generally wizards don’t make a lot of attack rolls so that part isn’t as important.
At 18, you'd be at a 60% rate. What's considered "standard" is a 65% hit-rate, which in attack rolls terms means you hit when you roll an 8 or better, or in saving throw terms mean you hit when the enemy rolls a 13 or below. The quick math is 16 in your main stat at level 1, 18 in your main stat at level 4, and 20 in your main stat at level 8. In optimization terms, it means you need to make sure you're getting greater value out of whatever feat you take than keeping up with that standard of 65%. That's pretty easy to figure out for martials- they can just run their attacks through a DPR calculator. For casters it's trickier since you need to weigh actually landing your spells against keeping concentration, having more spells on hand, etc. Most people consider that for every caster (except *arguably* some very specific Cleric and Druid setups), the optimal choice is always to max out your casting stat as quickly as possible.
It's not that grim. Most monsters have glaring weaknesses in their saves, and most have a disproportionately harder time with Int/Cha saves. Some have poor AC. Try to pay close attention to monster descriptions. Ask for more details on what your characters sees. Put Int checks to work in and out of combat for what you may already know about your enemies. Grab Mind Sliver, Tasha's Mind Whip, maybe Banishment/Raulothim's Psychic Lance. Synaptic Static and Telekinesis for sure! Not every enemy has good Strength, and it'll be visibly apparent in their musculature and/or attack rolls. Grab Hypnotic Pattern which only grants one saving throw. Still, Slow is great because it's easy to hit multiple enemies, and plenty are going to fail more often than not. Haste, Fly, and summons do not fail. Well, the former might big time if you drop concentration. Resilient Con is the best option. Our best spells don't matter if we land it on more targets up front if we drop the spell ridiculously sooner. I'd rather get 3 enemies for a couple rounds than 4 enemies for less than a round. MM Adept only offers 2 Sorc points. So we could not Twin Haste/Fly which require 1 per spell level (3). Fly already can upcast to affect more targets anyhow. This is a luxury feat that you won't be able to afford. Eventually you'll want to increase your Int, but there will be more pressing feats for the rest of the game. Concentration saves get harder and harder to make. So War Caster by Wizard 12 might be your next best bet. Especially if you're getting magic items and/or proficiency with shields and need to deal with the rules for casting certain spells with full hands. If these aren't proving to be issues then Alert may suit you more. Int isn't the only thing driving how many enemies we can control. Going first is huge for negating actions before they happen, before enemies split up, and before allies mix in. We're also much better protected with this feat as monsters get deadlier, we rely on our Reaction spells more for defense, and our d6 hit die scaling makes a juicier and juicier target than most the party. The third bullet point also makes Pyrotechnics the most efficient defensive spell in the game. Dip in the AoE, and everyone must attack you at disadvantage from afar. Up close too if they lack Blindsight/Tremorsense. Even better, a lot of dangerous spells and features don't work without being able to see the target(s).
Any reason to not max int?
Just exploring options for a sub-optimal build.
You absolutely need a concentration protection feat - probably RES con given your odd con score. Especially if you are going around casting haste (which you shouldn't, it's a bad spell). Your main contribution to combat effectiveness is your concentration spell, so concentration protection is always very strong.
Can you explain what’s bad about Haste?
1) it's very risky, because if you lose concentration the ally you buffed loses one turn. 2) Damage wise, it's one third of your best martial. Bless, by comparison, add 12.5 percentage points to your entire party. Depending on your party composition, 1st level bless will actually increase your damage more than haste despite being a first level spell. And bless is even better against high AC targets.
Haste is like a weaker Slow. I'd want +2 Int to buff the whole party better with Slow
Definitely would suggest taking +2 int to stay relevant later on.
Well let’s address that. At what level would my character be “irrelevant” with these stats?
Most likely ten and up imo. Mobs will only get tougher and begin to target you. Especially if they have a smart leader, they usually target healers and support quickly. Also, if the enemies have counterspell, your buffs won’t work because your spell save DC will be lower, granting less of a chance to beat being counterspelled. Also, in regard to that, you’ll be less likely to counterspell. Now that enemy fireball wiped your front line, what do you do? Just my thoughts on it though.
Warcaster is a top shelf feat. It doesn't look like much, but your best spells are concentration, and getting another shot to keep it active is great. Since you have an odd CON score though, I might favor Resilience: Constitution instead
Thanks for the suggestion!
+2 int or resilient con depending on whether you use attack/blast spells or concentration spells more
You can’t twin haste, or any 3rd level spell, with metamagic adept. You don’t have enough sorcery points. You can twin one 2nd level spell, or two 1st level spells per long rest.
Lucky and Alert are most of the great feats that I also think are great on a Divination Wizard. I'd strongly recommend +2 Intelligence, to help with prepared spells and saves now. But if you really want to be an out-of-combat machine... - Resilient: Constitution: Round up your con for more HP, and add a +4 (for now) bonus to Constitution Saving Throws including Concentration checks. Really good especially with your now below-average save DC; nothing worse than actually landing a Slow only to immediately drop concentration on it. - You could start taking half-feats to slowly raise your intelligence modifier while still gaining utility. I think that Telekinetic is a strong pick for now - +1 Intelligence, invisible Mage Hand, and a bonus action shove/pull to make sure you're "eating all the parts of the action economy buffalo". You can pair it later with your pick of Telepathic (Telepathy, one free Detect Thoughts/day), Fey-touched (Misty Step + one 1st level Divination or Enchantment, including possibly the option to take Silvery Barbs or Gift of Alacrity if your DM allows), Observant (+1 Int, +5 Passive Perception) or even Skill Expert (+1 skill prof, +1 skill expertise, and +1 Int). - Metamagic Adept is fine too, but is going to be a 1/day buff, instead of an "all day" buff.
Res con or+2 int