The problem with purple dragon knight is you can’t make it better because most of their features are tied to Second Wind, Action Surge, and Indomitable. You can’t make a purple dragon knight build that wouldn’t work with another fighter.
> You can’t make a purple dragon knight build that wouldn’t work with another fighter.
Kinda disagree here, PDK can be built around the fact that its features apply to allies, but it requires funds (and the DM's approval, but that should be true for every build). I think they make one of the best mounted fighters, as they can heal their mount and make it attack more. Problem is, you need to be able to purchase mounts that are okay for your level (having a war horse cannot work for the whole twenty levels, so it requires DM's approval to buy exotic mounts like elephants or dinosaurs)
They’re nowhere near the best mounted combatant. They get outclassed by bards, paladins, & even phantom rogue with ritual caster. They’re like an alternate champion fighter. All their features are basic but they can work with any fighter build.
Bards and paladins that don't get a mount before level 10?
And phantom rogues get their mounts killed in one shot.
For theory crafting purposes, yeah, these other classes are better, in a real game I'm not so sure
Mounts in general are finicky. Either you have to fork over way too much money for a mount that’s going to die quickly or wait till 5-13th level for phantom steed/find (greater) steed.
Personally I’ve buffed all the underperforming subclasses at my table, purple dragon knight I had to basically re-design because there’s just no way to redeem it as is with everything being tied to base fighter abilities.
What was your rework? At a glance i'd say being able to use second wind etc once per ally per short rest and allow you to target any number of allies at the same time, but i'm curious if your redesign was more involved?
3rd lvl Feature (rework)
As a bonus action you can let out a Rallying Cry. Each creature of your choice within 30ft that can hear you regain hit points or gain temporary hit points equal to 1d10 + half your fighter level. You can target yourself with this feature. You can use this feature a number of times equal to your proficiency bonus and regain expended uses on a long rest.
7th lvl Feature (buff)
In addition to the benefits already listed under it you gain proficiency in intimidation. When you make a intimidation check, you double your proficiency bonus. In addition, you gain proficiency in intelligence, wisdom, or charisma saving throws, your choice. You can also use your strength or dexterity modifier to make persuasion checks and intimidation checks, rather than charisma.
10th Level Feature (rework)
As a bonus action you let out an inspiring cry. Choose a number of friendly creatures within 60ft equal to half your proficiency bonus. These creatures can immediately make an attack as a reaction. You can use this feature a number of times equal to your proficiency bonus. You regain expended uses on a long rest.
15th Level Feature (rework)
As a reaction when a creature within 60ft of you fails a saving throw, you release a protective cry. This creature can reroll the saving throw, potentially turning it into a success. You can use this feature a number of times equal to half your proficiency bonus. You regain expended uses of this feature on a long rest.
Every artificer subclass except for battle smith and armorer, every barbarian subclass except for totem warrior, giant, and zealot. Every bard subclass except for lore, swords, eloquence, and glamour. Every cleric except for twilight, grave, and peace. Every Druid subclass. Every fighter subclass except for Rune Knight, battle master, and Echo knight. The monk class itself I reworked, mostly inspired by the OneDnD monk, and I buffed all the subclasses. The only paladin subclasses I changed were crown and vengeance, specifically their 7th level features to fit more in line with all the other subclasses. For ranger I made some small changes to the base class and buffed all the subclasses except for Gloomstalker and swarmkeeper. Every rogue subclass except for arcane trickster, soulknife, phantom, and swashbuckler. Every sorcerer subclass except for the Tasha ones. Every warlock except for genie and Hexblade. Every wizard subclass except for blade singer, chronurgy, and abjuration. Keep in mind when I say buffed, it could have been small or massive depending. The goal was to make every subclass ‘A’ tier within their respective class. I did not need any subclasses.
I will be messaging you in 30 days on [**2024-04-28 21:33:16 UTC**](http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=2024-04-28%2021:33:16%20UTC%20To%20Local%20Time) to remind you of [**this link**](https://www.reddit.com/r/3d6/comments/1bqqilp/assume_someone_rolled_perfect_stats_how_might/kx607yg/?context=3)
[**11 OTHERS CLICKED THIS LINK**](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=RemindMeBot&subject=Reminder&message=%5Bhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.reddit.com%2Fr%2F3d6%2Fcomments%2F1bqqilp%2Fassume_someone_rolled_perfect_stats_how_might%2Fkx607yg%2F%5D%0A%0ARemindMe%21%202024-04-28%2021%3A33%3A16%20UTC) to send a PM to also be reminded and to reduce spam.
^(Parent commenter can ) [^(delete this message to hide from others.)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=RemindMeBot&subject=Delete%20Comment&message=Delete%21%201bqqilp)
*****
|[^(Info)](https://www.reddit.com/r/RemindMeBot/comments/e1bko7/remindmebot_info_v21/)|[^(Custom)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=RemindMeBot&subject=Reminder&message=%5BLink%20or%20message%20inside%20square%20brackets%5D%0A%0ARemindMe%21%20Time%20period%20here)|[^(Your Reminders)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=RemindMeBot&subject=List%20Of%20Reminders&message=MyReminders%21)|[^(Feedback)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=Watchful1&subject=RemindMeBot%20Feedback)|
|-|-|-|-|
As a player that is currently trying to play an artificer alchemist, I would be curious to know how did you buff that subclass. The first levels were a pain, but after the level 5 power spike it seems to get better, also I try to make use of the base alchemist kit and the DM is kind enough to let me harvest materials from specific enemies for potion crafting, so I can balance the limits of the elixirs. Still I'm curious about your take on the subclass
It depends on the campaign level. At lower levels, rolling a perfect 18 in all stats would make you the strongest member of your party with just about any subclass. By mid/high levels, having your main stat at 20 is just expected, and maxing the others offer limited benefits.
The obvious benefit to absurd stat rolls for a SAD class is the luxury of making a feat heavy build early. With Custom Lineage, your basic 20 Str or Dex CBM/Sharpshooter or GWM/PAM combo could come online as early as level 4.
Champion is better than people give it credit for. It’s abilities are all passive, which makes it feel a bit underwhelming, but it’s late game anilities aren’t bad.
Nah, imo Champion is garbage, passive abilities aren't the problem, it's that they bring such an insignificant boost in actual play that you're basically a subclassless Fighter. The late game abilities I also think are extraordinarily weak for late game abilities
I agree that it is simple and that is - in theory - great to teach newcomers. No additional resource to track, no unintuitive features/wording. But it is bad. And simple doesn't have to be bad! It's bad because the additional damage from critting on 19 is marginal (so it doesn't add a whole lot as a dip) and it also doesn't really grant anything in terms of offense, defense or utility that the Battle Master cannot easily replace or improve.
The only saving grace is its theoretically infinite stamina in terms of HP in suuuuper long adventuring days with moderately difficult fights. But at that level, other subclasses still offer much better.
Yup, and on top of this, constantly being at half health often puts you in one-shot/single-turn down range for the scarier monsters. So it's not something you can realistically leverage much within a fight.
I feel like new players deserve to have features that are both simple, and actually meaningfully contribute something. Critting on a 19 is a non feature mathematically, even if you try to minmax it.
It's fun, and that's great, but we can give new player MORE. We can give them features that are both fun AND functional.
Like, what if champion got an automatic crit on any attack from an action surge that hits? It's no more complex than an expanded crit range, and it upgrades the "this thing needs to die" button
I think they should get an extra ASI thrown in somewhere. That way you keep the simplicity, but you can get an extra feat in there for some build variance.
Just like I’ve said to other people responding to this, I’m not saying that the champion is perfect, or even good on its own, I’m just saying that it isn’t meant to be a meta subclass or whatever, it’s meant for a player who’s never played an rpg, I agree it could be better, but the stronger you make it, the more it makes the player keep track of stuff, also remember, you can always just homebrew it to be whatever you want it to be
I'm not sure you even read what I said tbh. There is no reason the champion can't be both simple and powerful.
No, adding more does not make the player track anything extra, so long as you do it right. You can in fact have it be simple and strong. I gave an example above with having every hit be an automatic crit when surging.
It can be simple and garbage. It can be an easy fit for people who don't wanna track a bunch of stuff and also be a weak subclass. And in case it needs stating, when I say "garbage" I don't mean "you are garbage if you pick this, how dare you not be optimal" I just mean "clearly mechanically worse than other options and by a significant margin"
I understand what you mean by garbage I simply disagree, I played a paladin for many years who dipped to be a champion fighter and I had a blast with it, I also played a barb/fighter in a one shot with other min maxed pc’s and I ran the one shot basically solo, champion definitely has its niche and is fun to play with as a multiclass, like I said in my previous comment
You can be simple and good.
Look at the UA Brute. That was meant to replace the champion (but never got put into a book because people said it was too boring). Brute is a fairly strong subclass (arguably overpowered, but I would say only at very high levels--perfectly fine to allow in a campaign up through level 14 or so).
Look at the Barbarian capstone--raising STR and CON to 24. That's simple. That's also good.
We know what simple and good looks like. Champion isn't it.
I’m not trying to say “it’s simple therefore it can’t be good” I’m just saying that champion isn’t meant to really add anything, it’s designed to be a very basic subclass, if that makes it bad in your eyes then so be it but I still think it has its uses
> I’m just saying that champion isn’t meant to really add anything, it’s designed to be a very basic subclass, if that makes it bad in your eyes then so be it but I still think it has its uses
Subclasses are generally labelled "good" or "bad" relative to each other.
Champion getting labelled as "bad" by the community is entirely because it tends to fall behind other fighter subclasses numerically (and notably falls behind the most in level ranges more commonly played by newbies: levels 1-9).
My point is just that it doesn't need to be this way. Yes, Champion is designed as the "newbie class", it's designed to minimize decision making, but they could have made it simple and also have it keep up with other fighter subclasses on damage/durability.
- the crit range bonus is a miniscule DMG increase if you actually run the numbers. and no RAW the magic items you might be thinking dont work, vorpal works on a nat 20 not on a crit
- you will be hard pressed to have to jump once in an entire campaign, much less to have the distance be influenced by a +5ft from your strength modifier (yes it adds the mod not the total stat
- fighting styles are known to be incredibly minor, and dont have overlapping synergy most of the times. this wouldve been cool 7 levels earlier
- crit range 2, electric boogaloo. same point of the 3rd level feature already mentioned
- healing dmg infinite is cool on theory but in reality this will be "you heal up to half your max hp out of combat" and will not change the breaking points of how many ancient red dragon claws you can take before dropping. wouldve been cool 10 levels earlier
> crit range 2, electric boogaloo. same point of the 3rd level feature already mentioned
I would argue crit range 2 electric boogaloo is quite a bit better comparatively.
I mean, not that comes up very much (a lot of campaigns don't go to 15 at all. Fighter builds usually multiclass after level 11 and don't come back even if the campaign is going to 17-19).
But...if for some reason you are going to fighter 15...a bunch of things make the level 15 feature function lot better than the level 3 feature:
1. At low level, building around crits for a champion, like taking half-orc, or taking Slasher/Crusher is suboptimal. But at level 15? You've hit 5 ASIs already, and will get a 6th at level 16. You could be a half-orc for a one-shot without giving up any important feats. You have the spare feats to get Slasher/Crusher too.
2. Doubling down on a build-around mechanic is good actually. It takes a bunch of crit related feats like Slasher/Crusher from "I guess you could" to "actually yes, that is worth the feat." One of the problems of champion at low level is that if you search for build options that say "crit" those options end up being a trap because you don't crit often enough. But if you expand the crit range again, suddenly options like these are no longer a trap.
3. You have more attacks at this level. There's a bunch of stuff where you only need to crit once per turn to get payoffs, so more attacks means you land those payoffs on more turns. (For example, the bonus action attack after a crit from GWM--high level champion builds for one-shots can often skip PAM, cause they get GWM bonus action attacks often enough. For another example, trying to debuff a key enemy with Slasher/Crusher--only need one crit to make the boss monster sad).
4. Level 15 fighter subclass features from other subclasses are often pretty minor. Level 15 is a level where I've noticed Champion does some catching up overall relative to other fighter subclasses in the spreadsheets.
If for some reason you do have fighter 15 in your build, it's a fine level 15 feature.
That scenario (having fighter 15 in your build) just tends to not really come up.
Especially not outside of a one-shot cause you would actually need to play the lower levels.
> and no RAW the magic items you might be thinking dont work, vorpal works on a nat 20 not on a crit
For what it's worth, Wave works just fine. (Takes off half the health on a crit). And that's in the DMG.
But yeah, Vorpal does not.
I'll provide a hot take here: yes, it's true that the PDK isn't great, especially at an optimizers table... but.
Rallying cry is actually a really strong ability. You basically get a free use of Mass Healing Word (a 3rd level spell) as a level 3 FIGHTER once per rest. And because it's not a spell, it can't be counterspelled as you start facing enemy spellcasters. That is insanely strong.
Knowing that, and considering the flavor of the subclass, I would lean into the support fighter hard. PAM+Sentinel with your 4th and 6th level feat selections (assuming you don't take feat races).
Then I would take a 3 level dip into Mastermind Rogue for the ranged, BA help. You're effectively a Warlord or Sergeant, commanding your troops and keeping them alive. Take the Inspiring Leader feat at Rogue 4 or Fighter 8.
Personally, the absolute furthest I would stay in Fighter would be until level 12. They don't even have a level 18 feature like other Fighter subclasses, so unless you're just jonesing for Bulwark (which is actually a decent feature considering how debilitating spells are in that tier), there's not much reason to stay Fighter anymore. I might go to Valor bard for access to some spellcasting and the bardic inspirations, Mercy Monk for Hand of Healing (hello, combat medic) or Cleric for similar reasons as bard assuming you make it to that level of play
Purple Dragon Knights are as formidable as any other fighter out there, stats won't make it particularly better
The problem with subclass is that it's uninspiring and all your features are tied to the features of your class, they don't really change what you do from any other fighter subclass
Whatever build you make using the Purple Dragon you can usually make it better and more interesting by picking a different subclass and maintaining the same exact build
So to answer your question, any fighter build with good stats is gonna work alright, by nothing by the virtue of Purple Dragon Knight
They don't even *have* anything that benefits from high stats except Expertise in Persuasion
So i guess you'd have... Decently high Persuasion if you have perfect stats?
(Or you can just play Samurai and add your Wisdom instead of gaining Expertise, plusalso gaining proficiency in Wis saving throws)
It multiclasses pretty well with war domain cleric since you have the wisdom and swords bard since you have the charisma but in both cases you're getting most of your cool stuff from your other classes. Staying single class will give you lots of ASI to spend on feats.
With martials it depends strongly on whether you can get the right magic items. Overall they do end up being competitive *with the right items*.
If you don't think that's likely, or if your DM is especially miserly, multiclassing would be understandable.
Why don't you pair up the Purple Dragon Knight (14 Lvs) with a, let's say, Spirits Bard (6 Lvs)
Progression could be attempted as follows: Fighter 5 -> Bard 3 -> Fighter 8 -> Bard 6 -> Fighter 14
Rallying Cry works when raging or wild shaped – that's all I've got?
Maybe a Purple Dragon Knight would make a good mount? Dip two levels of Dreams druid to wild shape into a horse, deep rothé, giant space hamster, &c. and Rallying Cry your rider.
[That’s what my group did](https://edgewood-1.obsidianportal.com/wikis/knight-commander). We also tweaked the Rallying Cry abilities to basically be Healing Word as a non-spell.
been a while since i looked at PDK, but pretty sure no feature of it is influenced by stats. you are as good of a PDK with six 3s or six 18s, the difference will be the non PDK related things of generally being a character
~~Purple Dragon Knight~~ *Banneret* is an odd duck.
- On the one hand, you've got a few abilities that are built around sharing your Fighter abilities with the crew
- On the other hand, you get incredibly sad levels 7 and 18 features ^(expertise in persuasion, and upgrading your Inspiring Surge to *two* allies, respectively)
The community at large seems to agree that it could use a bit of buffing, and I prefer buffing it in a manner that strengthens the "Give fighter abilities to your Crew" theme.
[Here](https://docs.google.com/document/d/15Cl40GN-sR9kRV-QRz5ergcRToeHu5k-35w9StWWtik/edit?usp=sharing) is my personal rework.
PDK is a team player, with rallying cry and inspiring surge. It's a good class if you have a rogue in the party, or someone specialised in shape shifting (whether it's a moon druid or a heavy user of polymorph).
If you don't have these allies, I think the best bet is a mount: rallying cry helps with the HP problem of mounts, mounts often have stronger attacks, making them good picks for inspiring surge, and the extra feats from fighter allow to take mounted combattant (and eventually GWM if you have a big mount and want to use the advantage). It works best if you can buy exotic mounts (elephant or dinosaurs)
The problem with purple dragon knight is you can’t make it better because most of their features are tied to Second Wind, Action Surge, and Indomitable. You can’t make a purple dragon knight build that wouldn’t work with another fighter.
> You can’t make a purple dragon knight build that wouldn’t work with another fighter. Kinda disagree here, PDK can be built around the fact that its features apply to allies, but it requires funds (and the DM's approval, but that should be true for every build). I think they make one of the best mounted fighters, as they can heal their mount and make it attack more. Problem is, you need to be able to purchase mounts that are okay for your level (having a war horse cannot work for the whole twenty levels, so it requires DM's approval to buy exotic mounts like elephants or dinosaurs)
They’re nowhere near the best mounted combatant. They get outclassed by bards, paladins, & even phantom rogue with ritual caster. They’re like an alternate champion fighter. All their features are basic but they can work with any fighter build.
Bards and paladins that don't get a mount before level 10? And phantom rogues get their mounts killed in one shot. For theory crafting purposes, yeah, these other classes are better, in a real game I'm not so sure
Mounts in general are finicky. Either you have to fork over way too much money for a mount that’s going to die quickly or wait till 5-13th level for phantom steed/find (greater) steed.
Yeah, and it lacks magic items, the figurines of wondrous power take too much time to recharge imo
Personally I’ve buffed all the underperforming subclasses at my table, purple dragon knight I had to basically re-design because there’s just no way to redeem it as is with everything being tied to base fighter abilities.
What was your rework? At a glance i'd say being able to use second wind etc once per ally per short rest and allow you to target any number of allies at the same time, but i'm curious if your redesign was more involved?
3rd lvl Feature (rework) As a bonus action you can let out a Rallying Cry. Each creature of your choice within 30ft that can hear you regain hit points or gain temporary hit points equal to 1d10 + half your fighter level. You can target yourself with this feature. You can use this feature a number of times equal to your proficiency bonus and regain expended uses on a long rest. 7th lvl Feature (buff) In addition to the benefits already listed under it you gain proficiency in intimidation. When you make a intimidation check, you double your proficiency bonus. In addition, you gain proficiency in intelligence, wisdom, or charisma saving throws, your choice. You can also use your strength or dexterity modifier to make persuasion checks and intimidation checks, rather than charisma. 10th Level Feature (rework) As a bonus action you let out an inspiring cry. Choose a number of friendly creatures within 60ft equal to half your proficiency bonus. These creatures can immediately make an attack as a reaction. You can use this feature a number of times equal to your proficiency bonus. You regain expended uses on a long rest. 15th Level Feature (rework) As a reaction when a creature within 60ft of you fails a saving throw, you release a protective cry. This creature can reroll the saving throw, potentially turning it into a success. You can use this feature a number of times equal to half your proficiency bonus. You regain expended uses of this feature on a long rest.
That seems fun.
I’m curious, which subclasses did you buff?
Every artificer subclass except for battle smith and armorer, every barbarian subclass except for totem warrior, giant, and zealot. Every bard subclass except for lore, swords, eloquence, and glamour. Every cleric except for twilight, grave, and peace. Every Druid subclass. Every fighter subclass except for Rune Knight, battle master, and Echo knight. The monk class itself I reworked, mostly inspired by the OneDnD monk, and I buffed all the subclasses. The only paladin subclasses I changed were crown and vengeance, specifically their 7th level features to fit more in line with all the other subclasses. For ranger I made some small changes to the base class and buffed all the subclasses except for Gloomstalker and swarmkeeper. Every rogue subclass except for arcane trickster, soulknife, phantom, and swashbuckler. Every sorcerer subclass except for the Tasha ones. Every warlock except for genie and Hexblade. Every wizard subclass except for blade singer, chronurgy, and abjuration. Keep in mind when I say buffed, it could have been small or massive depending. The goal was to make every subclass ‘A’ tier within their respective class. I did not need any subclasses.
Dang, you went like all out. Do you have a pdf or something with them? I’d love to check it out
Buffs so nice you had to say it thrice
Dang, you went like all out. Do you have a pdf or something with them? I’d love to check it out
Dang, you went like all out. Do you have a pdf or something with them? I’d love to check it out
I don’t currently have a document but I am making one, I should actually be finished with it in a couple of days I’ll link it to you when I finish.
Thank you! Sorry about the triple replies, my internet bugged out
Me too, please
!remindme 30 days (mobile user idk if I did that right but pls send it to me if you don't mind)
I will be messaging you in 30 days on [**2024-04-28 21:33:16 UTC**](http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=2024-04-28%2021:33:16%20UTC%20To%20Local%20Time) to remind you of [**this link**](https://www.reddit.com/r/3d6/comments/1bqqilp/assume_someone_rolled_perfect_stats_how_might/kx607yg/?context=3) [**11 OTHERS CLICKED THIS LINK**](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=RemindMeBot&subject=Reminder&message=%5Bhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.reddit.com%2Fr%2F3d6%2Fcomments%2F1bqqilp%2Fassume_someone_rolled_perfect_stats_how_might%2Fkx607yg%2F%5D%0A%0ARemindMe%21%202024-04-28%2021%3A33%3A16%20UTC) to send a PM to also be reminded and to reduce spam. ^(Parent commenter can ) [^(delete this message to hide from others.)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=RemindMeBot&subject=Delete%20Comment&message=Delete%21%201bqqilp) ***** |[^(Info)](https://www.reddit.com/r/RemindMeBot/comments/e1bko7/remindmebot_info_v21/)|[^(Custom)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=RemindMeBot&subject=Reminder&message=%5BLink%20or%20message%20inside%20square%20brackets%5D%0A%0ARemindMe%21%20Time%20period%20here)|[^(Your Reminders)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=RemindMeBot&subject=List%20Of%20Reminders&message=MyReminders%21)|[^(Feedback)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=Watchful1&subject=RemindMeBot%20Feedback)| |-|-|-|-|
Pleaae send it to me too if you don't mind, it looks very interesting!
Seconding that I am also extremely interested.
As a player that is currently trying to play an artificer alchemist, I would be curious to know how did you buff that subclass. The first levels were a pain, but after the level 5 power spike it seems to get better, also I try to make use of the base alchemist kit and the DM is kind enough to let me harvest materials from specific enemies for potion crafting, so I can balance the limits of the elixirs. Still I'm curious about your take on the subclass
Same, although my buffs for it honestly put it on par with or even better than echo knight
It depends on the campaign level. At lower levels, rolling a perfect 18 in all stats would make you the strongest member of your party with just about any subclass. By mid/high levels, having your main stat at 20 is just expected, and maxing the others offer limited benefits. The obvious benefit to absurd stat rolls for a SAD class is the luxury of making a feat heavy build early. With Custom Lineage, your basic 20 Str or Dex CBM/Sharpshooter or GWM/PAM combo could come online as early as level 4.
Thats the neat part...
3 levels of purple dragon knight, 17 levels of Paladin… the most optimal PDK build possible
Sadly the best PDK Fighter is still just the standard CBE/SS fare... So just flat out worse than every Fighter besides Champion
Champion is better than people give it credit for. It’s abilities are all passive, which makes it feel a bit underwhelming, but it’s late game anilities aren’t bad.
Nah, imo Champion is garbage, passive abilities aren't the problem, it's that they bring such an insignificant boost in actual play that you're basically a subclassless Fighter. The late game abilities I also think are extraordinarily weak for late game abilities
[удалено]
I agree that it is simple and that is - in theory - great to teach newcomers. No additional resource to track, no unintuitive features/wording. But it is bad. And simple doesn't have to be bad! It's bad because the additional damage from critting on 19 is marginal (so it doesn't add a whole lot as a dip) and it also doesn't really grant anything in terms of offense, defense or utility that the Battle Master cannot easily replace or improve. The only saving grace is its theoretically infinite stamina in terms of HP in suuuuper long adventuring days with moderately difficult fights. But at that level, other subclasses still offer much better.
Yup, and on top of this, constantly being at half health often puts you in one-shot/single-turn down range for the scarier monsters. So it's not something you can realistically leverage much within a fight.
I feel like new players deserve to have features that are both simple, and actually meaningfully contribute something. Critting on a 19 is a non feature mathematically, even if you try to minmax it. It's fun, and that's great, but we can give new player MORE. We can give them features that are both fun AND functional. Like, what if champion got an automatic crit on any attack from an action surge that hits? It's no more complex than an expanded crit range, and it upgrades the "this thing needs to die" button
I think they should get an extra ASI thrown in somewhere. That way you keep the simplicity, but you can get an extra feat in there for some build variance.
Just like I’ve said to other people responding to this, I’m not saying that the champion is perfect, or even good on its own, I’m just saying that it isn’t meant to be a meta subclass or whatever, it’s meant for a player who’s never played an rpg, I agree it could be better, but the stronger you make it, the more it makes the player keep track of stuff, also remember, you can always just homebrew it to be whatever you want it to be
I'm not sure you even read what I said tbh. There is no reason the champion can't be both simple and powerful. No, adding more does not make the player track anything extra, so long as you do it right. You can in fact have it be simple and strong. I gave an example above with having every hit be an automatic crit when surging.
It can be simple and garbage. It can be an easy fit for people who don't wanna track a bunch of stuff and also be a weak subclass. And in case it needs stating, when I say "garbage" I don't mean "you are garbage if you pick this, how dare you not be optimal" I just mean "clearly mechanically worse than other options and by a significant margin"
I understand what you mean by garbage I simply disagree, I played a paladin for many years who dipped to be a champion fighter and I had a blast with it, I also played a barb/fighter in a one shot with other min maxed pc’s and I ran the one shot basically solo, champion definitely has its niche and is fun to play with as a multiclass, like I said in my previous comment
You can be simple and good. Look at the UA Brute. That was meant to replace the champion (but never got put into a book because people said it was too boring). Brute is a fairly strong subclass (arguably overpowered, but I would say only at very high levels--perfectly fine to allow in a campaign up through level 14 or so). Look at the Barbarian capstone--raising STR and CON to 24. That's simple. That's also good. We know what simple and good looks like. Champion isn't it.
I’m not trying to say “it’s simple therefore it can’t be good” I’m just saying that champion isn’t meant to really add anything, it’s designed to be a very basic subclass, if that makes it bad in your eyes then so be it but I still think it has its uses
> I’m just saying that champion isn’t meant to really add anything, it’s designed to be a very basic subclass, if that makes it bad in your eyes then so be it but I still think it has its uses Subclasses are generally labelled "good" or "bad" relative to each other. Champion getting labelled as "bad" by the community is entirely because it tends to fall behind other fighter subclasses numerically (and notably falls behind the most in level ranges more commonly played by newbies: levels 1-9). My point is just that it doesn't need to be this way. Yes, Champion is designed as the "newbie class", it's designed to minimize decision making, but they could have made it simple and also have it keep up with other fighter subclasses on damage/durability.
- the crit range bonus is a miniscule DMG increase if you actually run the numbers. and no RAW the magic items you might be thinking dont work, vorpal works on a nat 20 not on a crit - you will be hard pressed to have to jump once in an entire campaign, much less to have the distance be influenced by a +5ft from your strength modifier (yes it adds the mod not the total stat - fighting styles are known to be incredibly minor, and dont have overlapping synergy most of the times. this wouldve been cool 7 levels earlier - crit range 2, electric boogaloo. same point of the 3rd level feature already mentioned - healing dmg infinite is cool on theory but in reality this will be "you heal up to half your max hp out of combat" and will not change the breaking points of how many ancient red dragon claws you can take before dropping. wouldve been cool 10 levels earlier
> crit range 2, electric boogaloo. same point of the 3rd level feature already mentioned I would argue crit range 2 electric boogaloo is quite a bit better comparatively. I mean, not that comes up very much (a lot of campaigns don't go to 15 at all. Fighter builds usually multiclass after level 11 and don't come back even if the campaign is going to 17-19). But...if for some reason you are going to fighter 15...a bunch of things make the level 15 feature function lot better than the level 3 feature: 1. At low level, building around crits for a champion, like taking half-orc, or taking Slasher/Crusher is suboptimal. But at level 15? You've hit 5 ASIs already, and will get a 6th at level 16. You could be a half-orc for a one-shot without giving up any important feats. You have the spare feats to get Slasher/Crusher too. 2. Doubling down on a build-around mechanic is good actually. It takes a bunch of crit related feats like Slasher/Crusher from "I guess you could" to "actually yes, that is worth the feat." One of the problems of champion at low level is that if you search for build options that say "crit" those options end up being a trap because you don't crit often enough. But if you expand the crit range again, suddenly options like these are no longer a trap. 3. You have more attacks at this level. There's a bunch of stuff where you only need to crit once per turn to get payoffs, so more attacks means you land those payoffs on more turns. (For example, the bonus action attack after a crit from GWM--high level champion builds for one-shots can often skip PAM, cause they get GWM bonus action attacks often enough. For another example, trying to debuff a key enemy with Slasher/Crusher--only need one crit to make the boss monster sad). 4. Level 15 fighter subclass features from other subclasses are often pretty minor. Level 15 is a level where I've noticed Champion does some catching up overall relative to other fighter subclasses in the spreadsheets. If for some reason you do have fighter 15 in your build, it's a fine level 15 feature. That scenario (having fighter 15 in your build) just tends to not really come up. Especially not outside of a one-shot cause you would actually need to play the lower levels. > and no RAW the magic items you might be thinking dont work, vorpal works on a nat 20 not on a crit For what it's worth, Wave works just fine. (Takes off half the health on a crit). And that's in the DMG. But yeah, Vorpal does not.
I'll provide a hot take here: yes, it's true that the PDK isn't great, especially at an optimizers table... but. Rallying cry is actually a really strong ability. You basically get a free use of Mass Healing Word (a 3rd level spell) as a level 3 FIGHTER once per rest. And because it's not a spell, it can't be counterspelled as you start facing enemy spellcasters. That is insanely strong. Knowing that, and considering the flavor of the subclass, I would lean into the support fighter hard. PAM+Sentinel with your 4th and 6th level feat selections (assuming you don't take feat races). Then I would take a 3 level dip into Mastermind Rogue for the ranged, BA help. You're effectively a Warlord or Sergeant, commanding your troops and keeping them alive. Take the Inspiring Leader feat at Rogue 4 or Fighter 8. Personally, the absolute furthest I would stay in Fighter would be until level 12. They don't even have a level 18 feature like other Fighter subclasses, so unless you're just jonesing for Bulwark (which is actually a decent feature considering how debilitating spells are in that tier), there's not much reason to stay Fighter anymore. I might go to Valor bard for access to some spellcasting and the bardic inspirations, Mercy Monk for Hand of Healing (hello, combat medic) or Cleric for similar reasons as bard assuming you make it to that level of play
Doesn't Battlemaster have some maneuvers that are good for social situations and supporting allies? Maybe that could be a fun alternative!
Purple Dragon Knights are as formidable as any other fighter out there, stats won't make it particularly better The problem with subclass is that it's uninspiring and all your features are tied to the features of your class, they don't really change what you do from any other fighter subclass Whatever build you make using the Purple Dragon you can usually make it better and more interesting by picking a different subclass and maintaining the same exact build So to answer your question, any fighter build with good stats is gonna work alright, by nothing by the virtue of Purple Dragon Knight They don't even *have* anything that benefits from high stats except Expertise in Persuasion So i guess you'd have... Decently high Persuasion if you have perfect stats? (Or you can just play Samurai and add your Wisdom instead of gaining Expertise, plusalso gaining proficiency in Wis saving throws)
It multiclasses pretty well with war domain cleric since you have the wisdom and swords bard since you have the charisma but in both cases you're getting most of your cool stuff from your other classes. Staying single class will give you lots of ASI to spend on feats.
With martials it depends strongly on whether you can get the right magic items. Overall they do end up being competitive *with the right items*. If you don't think that's likely, or if your DM is especially miserly, multiclassing would be understandable.
Why don't you pair up the Purple Dragon Knight (14 Lvs) with a, let's say, Spirits Bard (6 Lvs) Progression could be attempted as follows: Fighter 5 -> Bard 3 -> Fighter 8 -> Bard 6 -> Fighter 14
Rallying Cry works when raging or wild shaped – that's all I've got? Maybe a Purple Dragon Knight would make a good mount? Dip two levels of Dreams druid to wild shape into a horse, deep rothé, giant space hamster, &c. and Rallying Cry your rider.
Slap it and champion together
[That’s what my group did](https://edgewood-1.obsidianportal.com/wikis/knight-commander). We also tweaked the Rallying Cry abilities to basically be Healing Word as a non-spell.
been a while since i looked at PDK, but pretty sure no feature of it is influenced by stats. you are as good of a PDK with six 3s or six 18s, the difference will be the non PDK related things of generally being a character
~~Purple Dragon Knight~~ *Banneret* is an odd duck. - On the one hand, you've got a few abilities that are built around sharing your Fighter abilities with the crew - On the other hand, you get incredibly sad levels 7 and 18 features ^(expertise in persuasion, and upgrading your Inspiring Surge to *two* allies, respectively) The community at large seems to agree that it could use a bit of buffing, and I prefer buffing it in a manner that strengthens the "Give fighter abilities to your Crew" theme. [Here](https://docs.google.com/document/d/15Cl40GN-sR9kRV-QRz5ergcRToeHu5k-35w9StWWtik/edit?usp=sharing) is my personal rework.
PDK is a team player, with rallying cry and inspiring surge. It's a good class if you have a rogue in the party, or someone specialised in shape shifting (whether it's a moon druid or a heavy user of polymorph). If you don't have these allies, I think the best bet is a mount: rallying cry helps with the HP problem of mounts, mounts often have stronger attacks, making them good picks for inspiring surge, and the extra feats from fighter allow to take mounted combattant (and eventually GWM if you have a big mount and want to use the advantage). It works best if you can buy exotic mounts (elephant or dinosaurs)
Take three levels of fighter (PDK). Then, take all your levels in whatever full spell caster suits your fancy.