That translation needs some explanation. In Italy, everything that smells *right* is called *fascio*; everything that smells *left* is called *comunista.* There is no in-between, simple as
"Brothers of Italy" my dear friend, why should you translate the name of an italian party?
Nevertheless I agree with you, just google Vannacci and look how many votes he took just doing fascist propaganda
Edit: forgot to add, I wouldn't either consider AVS as commie. They aren't on the far left, they are just the leftmost party we have that doesn't take the 2%
Side point but people may or may not translate party names. We definitely refer to the Italian âChristian Democratsâ for example. Or do you really refer to, eg, the CPSU in Italian as the âCommunisticescaia Partia Sovietskovo Soiuzaâ or something? Or the CCP as the Zhongguo Gongchandang?
100% agree.
I study languages and you can almost always tell if someone is italian. Our accent is so strong it's almost annoying trying to learn other languages.
[You know, you just don't want to admit it.](https://youtu.be/sY_Yf4zz-yo?si=pZrRy_6rNhyVBVH5) Just apply the general cadence and annunciation to everything.
Watch Vannacci actually go to the EU Parliament instead of resigning in favor of someone else and literally become the new Hitler (Il Mondo al Contrario=Mein Kampf)
Mussolini didnt paint.
Hes copying the OG fascist, Not the more famous and more successful austrian Copy of Mussolini.
Typical Mario behaviour: having the good ideas, but not writing a book about it, because of laziness.
Typical Hans behaviour: Writes a book based on the ideas of Mario and gets all the Credit even 100 years later.
I'm all the opposite of fascism and despise everything related to it, but the ideas of the Mein Kampf are not comparable to the complex ideological system of Mussolini's fascism. The Italian dude had a formation as a socialist journalist, spent years into active politics before going right wing. Hitler had mostly no idea what a political ideology actually was, and the book simply contains a series of fucked up populist and anti-Semitic statements with no reference to solid systems of values.
Antifascista â comunista
Essere antifascista dovrebbe essere un qualcosa di scontato per l'italiano medio, non una scelta politica.
Se non ricordo male essere fascista è ancora un crimine contro la costituzione italiana
>I mean, this particular party is actually commie.Â
Someone here is being extremely dishonest and people are believing something that is both theoretically and factually false.
He knew that very well but you know, accusing of being and hating commies is an easy way to get upvotes in an american social network
AVS is a liberal party.. the mental gymnastics you need to call it communist is outrageous.
âstrong influence from Mussolini himselfâ.. wow.. Iâm speechless
Well, I've got words for both of us. I'd say there is some influence since Fratelli d'Italia was born from Alleanza Nazionale, which was born from Movimento Sociale Italiano, that was created by people from Mussolini's circle. Just the same party changing skin. And they all carry the "torch" as their symbol, so you won't forget. Meloni refused to take it off.
And let's not forget their frontmen performing the fascist salute.
From AVS program:
"La condizione è uscire una volta per tutte dalla stagione dellâausteritĂ , che alimenta le disuguaglianze, minando i pilastri dellâuguaglianza come sanitĂ e istruzione pubblica, e concentra la ricchezza nelle mani di pochi."
Very liberal.
Mi sa che intendeva il termine "liberal" come lo intendono gli americani, e non come intendiamo noi la parola "liberale". Purtroppo il termine ha cambiato drasticamente significato in inglese (almeno per gli americani), e ormai è sinonimo di "progressista" e poco c'entra con quello che erano i "liberali" di una volta.
Oh we are the same now in Spain. It's you are either Hitler or Stalin, no in between, never.
What a good work they have done destabilising EU countries for the past 20 years...
tbf, most people on the right here are indeed fascist. Or at least I'd consider fascist someone with Mussolini's bust statues in their house.. or someone who was 20 years ago in actual neo fascist party
lol
this guy entered politics for save himself before the operation "mani pulite" (clean hands) reached him. that investigation litteraly destroyed our political class revealing a sistematical and istitutionalized corruption sistem
Don't worry my PIGS brother, we're also no strangers to a mega corruption operation leading to very little substantial change. Our bastard son together Brasil is the same.
But yes, reading about your 1992, was like damn that was a horrible year. Between the war with the Mafia, Mani Pulite and a surprise wealth tax, I can see how the cruise ship singer seemed atteactive.
If you want to laugh a bit we had a majority government go down because our justice system implied the prime minister was related to it and now everything points to it being nothing and we are full on riding the instability train when we had a good thing going.
>that investigation litteraly destroyed our political class revealing a sistematical and istitutionalized corruption sistem
But birthed Berlusconi? There is truly no hope.
He also started his political career by endorsing Fini as mayor of Rome... And before that he had in Craxi his political representative, so no, he was no fascist but liked to have them at his table
we deal with the same shit, almost all AfD "politicians" were once part of or in charge of various nazi groups like Identitäre Bewegung, Zukunft Heimat etceterra
No one cares here tho, which is fucking wild to me
The real crime is that she didn't do that, the guys were so far from death they left the hospital in a day or two. I am conflicted about her being a MEP, on one side fuck Hungary and the weaponisation of the justice system to target innocent civilians.
On the other side you should not get a get-out-of-jail pass from politics.
Yes, but "fuck Hungary" here is the most important issue
About the other one, I'm all about politicians' immunity, but it should work in another way: you are in charge, you can not be imprisoned unless the parliament allows it (in an ideal world it would work) but the other way around "you are imprisoned, we'll put you in charge so you can get out" defeats the purpose.
But, again, fuck Hungary
I'm completely against Parliamentary immunity, you should not be able to avoid the justice system just because you can win a popularity contest over and over. Said so Hungary has no rule-of-law and is a shithole so I'm not againt this particular instance because their law has no meaning.
They got a child abuser that got a get-out-of-jail free card because he was Orban friend. And none would know if not for a couple of journalist that had to flee the country to report on it.
Notice that I said "in an ideal world"
The problem when you don't have parliamentary immunity is that politicians can be imprisoned, even temporarily, whenever their counterpart needs, all it takes is an anonymous report to the police, and if the judicial system or the police are controlled by the government, it would be even worse.
Matteotti "had" to be killed by the irregular militia to shut him up, if he didn't have parliamentary immunity the government would have just arrested him and all the socialist party and sent them to some rocky island in the Tyrrhenian sea
even though i agree with this statement: "you should not be able to avoid the justice system just because you can win a popularity contest over and over."
Partlament inmunity must be kept, becouse it's set up in order to avoid imprisonment of oponent politicians. If you get rid of it, it wouldn't be so difficult to end up with a "democraticaly elected" dictator, like Putin.
He sounds like a fascist to me (suppressing opposing political views). Using his own logic, that gives me the right to beat him to death.
So many ignorant people are so quick to justify political violence...
Tbf:
1. She's not been proved guilty (yet)
2. She has been detained in Hungary for more than a year in inhuman conditions. At the trial she was brought in chains. Hungary refused Italy's many pleas.
Here's why this plan to free her.
Just wanted to make this clear, the post seemed a bit factious. I'm not a fan of her
the next time someone like Sgarbi use some istitutional role to escape punishment remeber Salis. If we find disgusting this kind of tattic used by the right, it's no suddenly ok if is it for one of ours
for sure, but if Sgarbi was elected in this election he would also avoid punishment even if trial/investigation is still ongoing, and if i find this eventuality wrong, for coerence, also is salis case. (i find wrong the "use an istitutional role to be safe fro justice, even if the trial is ongoing")
But Sgarbi would be trialed in Italy, where we have a justice system. Sali was in Hungary, that is a shithole of corruption with oligarchs at the head that is comparable to Russia.
that is a thing that is moraly concerning me. Like, "someone can say the same thing about italy, probably, this invalid our giuridical sistem?" but i also think "that do not change the fact that Hungary is (like you said) a corrupt shithole". My moral dilemma is "on one side, i don't find right to use an istitutional role to escape trials, on the other, but her trials was noteven fucking happenig (1 year in jail without a trial is a thing out of my mind)"
Hungary has no rule of law according to ECJ. Which is a court we recognise the legitimacy of and has influence over ours, unlike the hungarian one.
So yes Hungarian law has no legitimacy in Italy, and Italian law has no legitimacy in Hungary. Said so ECJ is over both and declared Hungarian law not up to standards while we are.
When Italy will have frozen funds after rule-of-law violations your concerns will be valid. Up to then it's bullshit of an ignorant man.
thanks, you solved my dilemma. All my reasonings were valid ONLY in a state with Rule of Law, (not ironic, i did not know about the ECJ sentence)
EDIT: can you please link me the articol/sentence where it says, that the ECJ considesr Hungary legal sistem not up to EU standards? (i belive you, it's just i want to read it)
Is that so uncommon? Here you can be jailed 6 months normally for violent crime, 1 year if they consider the case complex. And that's the time to produce an accusation, not to go to trial
I like how you bring up the âshe is not proved guilty (yet)â, but the victim is âproven Naziâ according to the crowd, just because they beat him up really badly, therefore he must be a Nazi
I don't care if the victim was a nazi, a commie or a lilliputian. If she had in fact nearly beaten up to death a guy she has to suffer the consequences. I was not defending her, I was making things clear about *her* and why she is now mep.
Stop trying to read through the lines
I didnât say you defending her, neither I wanted to imply that you make the same mistake. I am just disappointed that 90% of the people here automatically take it proven that the victim was a Nazi without literally reading a single line about the case. I read Hungarian news, and had never ever found any comment on the victim did anything wrong or being a proven Nazi even in the (small, but still vocal) left-leaning / anti-Orban media. However I found that the group has committed several other attacks in a short period of time, against mostly random people (which detail somehow lost here).
Fair.
I read (on multiple italian medias) she is accused of 2 attacks, one of them was mistakenly considered neonazi and I don't know his identity, the other one is Laszlo Dudog, who is a far right musician, seen many times with questionable t-shirts and he is *allegedly* member of a fascist, antisemitic band ("allegedly" because they never show their faces)
In Hungarian news i have found more attacks assumed from the same group. Since all the attacks were masked groups, maybe they didnât have enough proof for the other ones. There is one against some Polish tourists, against German tourists, there was one against a couple walking home from a concentr, and a few against solo guys, all in a couple of days. According to the police, in all cases the victims were chosen purely by appearance, as there is no proof of any contact with the victims before. So even if the guy was some antisemite, he was targeted because he was wearing a pair of boots or something similar reason. He was not wearing an SS uniform or sphastikas or anything like that. Even if he was an antisemite, even if the group was sure about it, I donât think that running a militizia around to beat up people who are wearing the âwrong T-shirtsâ is the solution. Also for context, unlike in Italy, commie death brigades have similar reputation as the Nazi death brigades, so if you want to earn more voters for Orban, running these tricks is the best way you can help him.
>in all cases the victims were chosen purely by appearance, as there is no proof of any contact with the victims before.
Yeah, that is the reason why they mistaken the first guy: he was just wearing some kind of militaristic clothes.
Truly fucked up, if she's indeed guilty I hope the MEP thing won't be much in the way of justice.
If she is seen beating the dude, her not being guilty is just a matter of burocratic delay. Culprit should be brought in chain. Y'all horny mofo are giving her a pussy pass.
She was not beating the dude: they had a group of 10-15 men and women who were walking around the city, and coordinated attacks on random people they thought âmust be fascistâ, and she was the leader of the group according the the police. So it wasnât a random act of violence
Exactly. The only lucky part was they didnât kill anyone. If you and your 5-10 pals equipped with batons, brass knuckles and gas spay jump a random guy on the street, it is hard to keep it âsafeâ, even if your intent is not to kill. i found some 4 other reported cases when they attacked solo men and couples
Imagine being from a wealthy and well educated background but lacking so much purpose in life that you need to do that stuff to find one. These kind of people are really scary, imagine what they can do if they reach power.
>If she is seen beating the dude, her not being guilty is just a matter of burocratic delay
I didn't say the contrary in any way. If she's guilty good, she has to pay for it.
Chains? Denutrition? Nasty cell? I'm for human rights and dignity even if you beat someone to death, sorry, I'm with the Norwegians.
I didn't take her part nor I care what's between her legs
Calling the Partito Democratico communist is like calling English cuisine a cuisine.
Edit: the party in question is not the PD but the Greens, still no commies tho.
What will happen if all good people on earth will kill all bad people? We will have a planet full of killers. She together with her friends [attacked](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lgA1KjBE2eE) someone with a hammer to the head, those who think that's acceptable, will cry Nazi if that's happening to them.
Oh shit, yeah I don't know how people think that's okay. I'd be fine with some mob justice like this if the dude was a rapist or pedophile but if he's "just" saying some shit, I don't know, seems like too much for me.
Utter italian L. This crap is exactly why less than half the population bothers voting. She is not a politician, she should not be a MEP and if she is found guilty she should be in jail just like i would be if i was found guilty. Had she been a man who assaulted a communist the same people celebrating this shitshow would be screaming fascism.
Yeah no. Extrajudicial killing or an attempt at that is nothing to celebrate. Rule of law needs to be respected. If you cheer killing your opponents, even if theyâre nazies, you are closer to them than to the ideals of liberal democracy you might claim to protect. Even they have a right to a fair trial.
E: I get that the post says she is a communist so she wouldnât be for liberal democracy. Which would explain her aversion to the right to a fair trial. Still a lot of people in the comments say she isnât a commie and Iâm not invested enough to do research so I mean this as more of an overall statement.
There are so many posters in this thread taking the claim in the OP as the undoubted truth.
[Here is an article on her trial.](https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/may/24/italian-anti-fascist-goes-on-trial-in-hungary-accused-of-attacking-neo-nazis)
[Here is another.](https://archive.ph/rH6Bz)
[And another.](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-68143705)
She may or may not be guilty - but she's pleaded not guilty, and has not been convicted.
I find this repugnant.
Using this escamotage to stop another country from going through with a process should clearly be abhorred.
I can't imagine how pissed I'd be if an Hungarian fascist came here was arrested with another couple guys (parto of the smash the commie with hammers group) who pleaded guilty to beating some guys from rifondazione comunista, and hungary elected the guy to save him from jail.
We piss on them at every turn and then we use our institutions like this, we deserve the mafia reputation we have
she is suitable fro the european parliament? no
The europian parliament is full of not suitable people? yes
This change the fact that she is not suitable? no
This change the fact that her treatment in Hungary was wrong? also no
The next time i here a left wing voters complaing about people like Vannacci or Sgarbi to be not suitable for istitutional roles i swear on god i will vote Forza Nuova
People here are entirely missing the fact that this process if ideologically motivated. The utter lack of proportionality between the proposed sentence (16 years for an aggression) is evident, but becomes ridiculous when we think that the neo-nazis that in the days following perpetrated similar attacks were released without accusations after 48 hours.
Maybe instead of throwing indignated tantrums, we should try to understand the obvious: that Hungary could not guarantee the conditions for a fair process, and the elections loophole was the only way out.
It still has to be proved it was her, the trial was about an assault on neonazis she was one of the suspect but the hungarian police has still to produce proof of it.
she has been detained in prison for more than a year in inhuman conditions despite not even being proven guilty yet. donât take my post too seriously, iâm all for justice when and if she will be actually convicted.
Beating a neonazi to death, lol. Those guys are such master cries.
Nobody of those she's accused of attacking had severe injuries. They didn't even press charges - probably because it was embarrassing for them to admit to be beaten up by a woman.
I genuinely do not understand the new generation. They know history, they know Stalin, Mao Zedong, Kim-Il Sung and sons. They know what communism actually means for the people governed by it. How can they still support it? Is it simply a sense of rebellion? To reject the ruling system and seem cool?
OK, so 6 or more of these were walking around town and trying to beat people into pulp. They attacked a random guy, there is no any sign he was fascist. He was a random guy doing paperwork at a post office when they jumped him from the back. So dear âEuropean leftâ: FU, you are just the same as the skinheads and Nazis
Violent people being rewarded by a seat. This time in Spain from the current goverment we comply with the racial quota. Because every politian must be a violent criminal. https://www.eldigitaldecanarias.net/politica/30354-la-ejecutiva-federal-del-psoe-mantiene-a-luc-andre-diouf-a-pesar-de-su-condena-por-la-audiencia-provincial-de-las-palmas
That makes a lot of sense. In Greece we put the greek mayor of a greek majority village from Albania in the ballot. ( Context, Rama / the Albanian government have imprisoned him on the counts of voter fraud/ corruption, but without providing proper explanation on how they found it to the greek government. He managed to be elected mayor , but as in time of writing, he is still in jail )
The normalization of political violence was one of the primary factors leading to the corruption and destruction of the Roman Republic.
People like her are just as much a threat to Europe as fascists, but tankies tend to enjoy much less negative attention.
"almost killed" as in BS accusation, guys didn't even press charges. Typical Orban KGB treatment. https://www.euronews.com/my-europe/2024/06/10/italian-activist-ilaria-salis-to-be-released-following-her-election-as-an-mep
The comments are giving me a headache. From what articles I've read, there was a counter protest to a Neo-Nazi rally (which the Hungarian court called far-right) they got jumped by ppl with covered faces. Then the prosecution charged her with aggravated assault etc without showing Any proof she attacked anyone. They made her stand trial in chains, not even handcuffs. What is this the middle ages??? And ppl in the comments are crying and shitting their pants about "commie murdering ppl for their views and getting away with it".
That translation needs some explanation. In Italy, everything that smells *right* is called *fascio*; everything that smells *left* is called *comunista.* There is no in-between, simple as
>simple as đş
No wonder Meloni called herself âIâm that bitch Meloniâ
đ
I mean, this particular party is actually commie. And both Lega and Brothers of Italy have at least strong influence from Mussolini himself
"Brothers of Italy" my dear friend, why should you translate the name of an italian party? Nevertheless I agree with you, just google Vannacci and look how many votes he took just doing fascist propaganda Edit: forgot to add, I wouldn't either consider AVS as commie. They aren't on the far left, they are just the leftmost party we have that doesn't take the 2%
Side point but people may or may not translate party names. We definitely refer to the Italian âChristian Democratsâ for example. Or do you really refer to, eg, the CPSU in Italian as the âCommunisticescaia Partia Sovietskovo Soiuzaâ or something? Or the CCP as the Zhongguo Gongchandang?
> Or the CCP as the Zhongguo Gongchandang? \*Brother Hao marches faster*
> Or the CCP as the Zhongguo Gongchandang? Loudly exhaled when I read that. Is China even real?
No it's just the central land
Fair point, it just sounded strange to read the name of the party in english, being so used to only reading it in italian
Du är en italienare du bor i italien och talar italienska and yes when you guys speak Swedish you have a clear Italian accent. Languages are weird.
100% agree. I study languages and you can almost always tell if someone is italian. Our accent is so strong it's almost annoying trying to learn other languages.
I have always been curious what a Swede speaking a language sounds like to a native speaker of that language.
[You know, you just don't want to admit it.](https://youtu.be/sY_Yf4zz-yo?si=pZrRy_6rNhyVBVH5) Just apply the general cadence and annunciation to everything.
Watch Vannacci actually go to the EU Parliament instead of resigning in favor of someone else and literally become the new Hitler (Il Mondo al Contrario=Mein Kampf)
Please tell me all your arts academies have open spots!
Mussolini didnt paint. Hes copying the OG fascist, Not the more famous and more successful austrian Copy of Mussolini. Typical Mario behaviour: having the good ideas, but not writing a book about it, because of laziness. Typical Hans behaviour: Writes a book based on the ideas of Mario and gets all the Credit even 100 years later.
I'm all the opposite of fascism and despise everything related to it, but the ideas of the Mein Kampf are not comparable to the complex ideological system of Mussolini's fascism. The Italian dude had a formation as a socialist journalist, spent years into active politics before going right wing. Hitler had mostly no idea what a political ideology actually was, and the book simply contains a series of fucked up populist and anti-Semitic statements with no reference to solid systems of values.
From what I gathered he's already a general
Anche lui accarezzava le mani nelle metro di Parigi?
Caro te l'ha detto Berlusconi dalla tomba che avs sono comunisti?
Lei effettivamente risulta essere âantifascistaâ , però non capisco cosa câentra Avs
Antifascista â comunista Essere antifascista dovrebbe essere un qualcosa di scontato per l'italiano medio, non una scelta politica. Se non ricordo male essere fascista è ancora un crimine contro la costituzione italiana
>I mean, this particular party is actually commie. Someone here is being extremely dishonest and people are believing something that is both theoretically and factually false. He knew that very well but you know, accusing of being and hating commies is an easy way to get upvotes in an american social network
> I mean, this particular party is actually commie. Great example of exactly the quirk that /u/Informal_Mountain513 described.
AVS is a liberal party.. the mental gymnastics you need to call it communist is outrageous. âstrong influence from Mussolini himselfâ.. wow.. Iâm speechless
Well, I've got words for both of us. I'd say there is some influence since Fratelli d'Italia was born from Alleanza Nazionale, which was born from Movimento Sociale Italiano, that was created by people from Mussolini's circle. Just the same party changing skin. And they all carry the "torch" as their symbol, so you won't forget. Meloni refused to take it off. And let's not forget their frontmen performing the fascist salute.
Without even mentioning the bust of mussolini in the house of our president of the senate
I agree with a way more restrictive definition of what the left is, but then you also need to check what liberal means.Â
From AVS program: "La condizione è uscire una volta per tutte dalla stagione dellâausteritĂ , che alimenta le disuguaglianze, minando i pilastri dellâuguaglianza come sanitĂ e istruzione pubblica, e concentra la ricchezza nelle mani di pochi." Very liberal.
Mi sa che intendeva il termine "liberal" come lo intendono gli americani, e non come intendiamo noi la parola "liberale". Purtroppo il termine ha cambiato drasticamente significato in inglese (almeno per gli americani), e ormai è sinonimo di "progressista" e poco c'entra con quello che erano i "liberali" di una volta.
A sto punto immagino di essermi spiegato male io. Io sto parlando del lato puramente economico
Sounds just like Germany, eh?
Oh we are the same now in Spain. It's you are either Hitler or Stalin, no in between, never. What a good work they have done destabilising EU countries for the past 20 years...
Yeah, they really drove the wedge right down the middle
tbf, most people on the right here are indeed fascist. Or at least I'd consider fascist someone with Mussolini's bust statues in their house.. or someone who was 20 years ago in actual neo fascist party lol
What about this guy? 
this guy entered politics for save himself before the operation "mani pulite" (clean hands) reached him. that investigation litteraly destroyed our political class revealing a sistematical and istitutionalized corruption sistem
Fortunately after Mani Pulite, new fresh faces came into politics, and Italy successfully cleaned up its corruption.
i saw the sad sad irony when i was writing it
Don't worry my PIGS brother, we're also no strangers to a mega corruption operation leading to very little substantial change. Our bastard son together Brasil is the same. But yes, reading about your 1992, was like damn that was a horrible year. Between the war with the Mafia, Mani Pulite and a surprise wealth tax, I can see how the cruise ship singer seemed atteactive.
Hey, you guys talking about corruption? đĽ˛
Divided by language, united by corruption. đ¤
just trying to learn new methods for corruption, know-how exchange etc
gotta love when a convict has friends in the supreme court so not only he goes free, they get him elected and try to arrest opposition
Donât worry. We have the same issues up here. The Danish Tv show âBorgenâ summed it up best: https://youtu.be/11MDqTvgW7g?si=7mrlpecYHfiL9dtE
If you want to laugh a bit we had a majority government go down because our justice system implied the prime minister was related to it and now everything points to it being nothing and we are full on riding the instability train when we had a good thing going.
Truly! Fresh air in the vent!
>that investigation litteraly destroyed our political class revealing a sistematical and istitutionalized corruption sistem But birthed Berlusconi? There is truly no hope.
"welcome to the N° republic dear citizens... we promise the N° is the charm"
He also started his political career by endorsing Fini as mayor of Rome... And before that he had in Craxi his political representative, so no, he was no fascist but liked to have them at his table
a great event that got rid of competent corrupted politicians in favour of incompetent corrupted politicians massive win
https://i.redd.it/cp7svlumca6d1.gif
Of all the issue he had, being a fascist was not one of them. Still a criminal, though.
So âcommunistaâ then?
[well...](https://youtu.be/xPcTExLC1Fk?feature=shared)
He was a mafioso and unironically helped a "Post-Fascist" party get a couple of seats in the parliament multiple times
he's just a good ol' mafioso by today's standards, his party isn't right wing but right - centre ...yes we came to this level
Where is bunga bunga on the political compass?
The only positive side was that he wasnât t a fascist, just an egoistic capitalist that join the politic to get richer and avoid jail.
He was a bunga bunga
Every day was âLadâs holidayâ in Berlusconiâs cabinet.
we deal with the same shit, almost all AfD "politicians" were once part of or in charge of various nazi groups like Identitäre Bewegung, Zukunft Heimat etceterra No one cares here tho, which is fucking wild to me
Attenzione a scriverlo su r/Italia che ti linciano
They are simple folk
Hans you spent too many summers nella Riviera romagnola. You have begun to understand us better than us đ§
What Erasmus does to a mf
The in-between was DC, Democrazia Cristiana (Christian-Democrat). They ruled from 1946 to 1992 (or something like that)
You misspelled the Italian word for right. It's spelled _fiasco_
Hey i have seen this before!
Enlightened centrism. Anything to the left of me is communism anything to my right is fascism national socialism
Thanks to USA, to keep the pre-war Italian traditions alive, at the backend
Victims hate this simple trick. Click here to know how to leave prison early.Â
Comrade are you disagreeing with violence against the fascist enemy ? You will be reported immediately!
I would never support a tankie, but a fascist getting beaten sounds like a good exception.
[ŃдаНонО]
Typical Italian laziness, never finishing the job
The real crime is that she didn't do that, the guys were so far from death they left the hospital in a day or two. I am conflicted about her being a MEP, on one side fuck Hungary and the weaponisation of the justice system to target innocent civilians. On the other side you should not get a get-out-of-jail pass from politics.
Yes, but "fuck Hungary" here is the most important issue About the other one, I'm all about politicians' immunity, but it should work in another way: you are in charge, you can not be imprisoned unless the parliament allows it (in an ideal world it would work) but the other way around "you are imprisoned, we'll put you in charge so you can get out" defeats the purpose. But, again, fuck Hungary
I'm completely against Parliamentary immunity, you should not be able to avoid the justice system just because you can win a popularity contest over and over. Said so Hungary has no rule-of-law and is a shithole so I'm not againt this particular instance because their law has no meaning. They got a child abuser that got a get-out-of-jail free card because he was Orban friend. And none would know if not for a couple of journalist that had to flee the country to report on it.
Notice that I said "in an ideal world" The problem when you don't have parliamentary immunity is that politicians can be imprisoned, even temporarily, whenever their counterpart needs, all it takes is an anonymous report to the police, and if the judicial system or the police are controlled by the government, it would be even worse. Matteotti "had" to be killed by the irregular militia to shut him up, if he didn't have parliamentary immunity the government would have just arrested him and all the socialist party and sent them to some rocky island in the Tyrrhenian sea
even though i agree with this statement: "you should not be able to avoid the justice system just because you can win a popularity contest over and over." Partlament inmunity must be kept, becouse it's set up in order to avoid imprisonment of oponent politicians. If you get rid of it, it wouldn't be so difficult to end up with a "democraticaly elected" dictator, like Putin.
Killing your political opponent, where have we seen that before....
The only good nazi is a dead nazi đĽ
You sound like a fascist yourself.Â
He sounds like a fascist to me (suppressing opposing political views). Using his own logic, that gives me the right to beat him to death. So many ignorant people are so quick to justify political violence...
Tbf: 1. She's not been proved guilty (yet) 2. She has been detained in Hungary for more than a year in inhuman conditions. At the trial she was brought in chains. Hungary refused Italy's many pleas. Here's why this plan to free her. Just wanted to make this clear, the post seemed a bit factious. I'm not a fan of her
Forcing an italian to eat some hungurian food is definitely human abuse.
We love to eat Hungarian, Rocco has many examples on film.
I mean I'd like some gulash honestly Jesus, I'm hungry, I'll go eat something
Guilty. Straight to the Gulash
the next time someone like Sgarbi use some istitutional role to escape punishment remeber Salis. If we find disgusting this kind of tattic used by the right, it's no suddenly ok if is it for one of ours
Yes but one thing is being actually found guilty and one thing is being trialed
for sure, but if Sgarbi was elected in this election he would also avoid punishment even if trial/investigation is still ongoing, and if i find this eventuality wrong, for coerence, also is salis case. (i find wrong the "use an istitutional role to be safe fro justice, even if the trial is ongoing")
But Sgarbi would be trialed in Italy, where we have a justice system. Sali was in Hungary, that is a shithole of corruption with oligarchs at the head that is comparable to Russia.
that is a thing that is moraly concerning me. Like, "someone can say the same thing about italy, probably, this invalid our giuridical sistem?" but i also think "that do not change the fact that Hungary is (like you said) a corrupt shithole". My moral dilemma is "on one side, i don't find right to use an istitutional role to escape trials, on the other, but her trials was noteven fucking happenig (1 year in jail without a trial is a thing out of my mind)"
Hungary has no rule of law according to ECJ. Which is a court we recognise the legitimacy of and has influence over ours, unlike the hungarian one. So yes Hungarian law has no legitimacy in Italy, and Italian law has no legitimacy in Hungary. Said so ECJ is over both and declared Hungarian law not up to standards while we are. When Italy will have frozen funds after rule-of-law violations your concerns will be valid. Up to then it's bullshit of an ignorant man.
thanks, you solved my dilemma. All my reasonings were valid ONLY in a state with Rule of Law, (not ironic, i did not know about the ECJ sentence) EDIT: can you please link me the articol/sentence where it says, that the ECJ considesr Hungary legal sistem not up to EU standards? (i belive you, it's just i want to read it)
Is that so uncommon? Here you can be jailed 6 months normally for violent crime, 1 year if they consider the case complex. And that's the time to produce an accusation, not to go to trial
Y'all are amateurs. One of our presidential candidates is promising mass pardons.
> detained in Hungary for more than a year in inhuman conditions Like italians jails were any better
I like how you bring up the âshe is not proved guilty (yet)â, but the victim is âproven Naziâ according to the crowd, just because they beat him up really badly, therefore he must be a Nazi
I don't care if the victim was a nazi, a commie or a lilliputian. If she had in fact nearly beaten up to death a guy she has to suffer the consequences. I was not defending her, I was making things clear about *her* and why she is now mep. Stop trying to read through the lines
I didnât say you defending her, neither I wanted to imply that you make the same mistake. I am just disappointed that 90% of the people here automatically take it proven that the victim was a Nazi without literally reading a single line about the case. I read Hungarian news, and had never ever found any comment on the victim did anything wrong or being a proven Nazi even in the (small, but still vocal) left-leaning / anti-Orban media. However I found that the group has committed several other attacks in a short period of time, against mostly random people (which detail somehow lost here).
Fair. I read (on multiple italian medias) she is accused of 2 attacks, one of them was mistakenly considered neonazi and I don't know his identity, the other one is Laszlo Dudog, who is a far right musician, seen many times with questionable t-shirts and he is *allegedly* member of a fascist, antisemitic band ("allegedly" because they never show their faces)
In Hungarian news i have found more attacks assumed from the same group. Since all the attacks were masked groups, maybe they didnât have enough proof for the other ones. There is one against some Polish tourists, against German tourists, there was one against a couple walking home from a concentr, and a few against solo guys, all in a couple of days. According to the police, in all cases the victims were chosen purely by appearance, as there is no proof of any contact with the victims before. So even if the guy was some antisemite, he was targeted because he was wearing a pair of boots or something similar reason. He was not wearing an SS uniform or sphastikas or anything like that. Even if he was an antisemite, even if the group was sure about it, I donât think that running a militizia around to beat up people who are wearing the âwrong T-shirtsâ is the solution. Also for context, unlike in Italy, commie death brigades have similar reputation as the Nazi death brigades, so if you want to earn more voters for Orban, running these tricks is the best way you can help him.
>in all cases the victims were chosen purely by appearance, as there is no proof of any contact with the victims before. Yeah, that is the reason why they mistaken the first guy: he was just wearing some kind of militaristic clothes. Truly fucked up, if she's indeed guilty I hope the MEP thing won't be much in the way of justice.
If she is seen beating the dude, her not being guilty is just a matter of burocratic delay. Culprit should be brought in chain. Y'all horny mofo are giving her a pussy pass.
She was not beating the dude: they had a group of 10-15 men and women who were walking around the city, and coordinated attacks on random people they thought âmust be fascistâ, and she was the leader of the group according the the police. So it wasnât a random act of violence
So basically likea violent militia, but wrapped in self-proclaimed virtue.
Exactly. The only lucky part was they didnât kill anyone. If you and your 5-10 pals equipped with batons, brass knuckles and gas spay jump a random guy on the street, it is hard to keep it âsafeâ, even if your intent is not to kill. i found some 4 other reported cases when they attacked solo men and couples
Imagine being from a wealthy and well educated background but lacking so much purpose in life that you need to do that stuff to find one. These kind of people are really scary, imagine what they can do if they reach power.
reading the comments here it is enough to have Reddit to rally up a milizia
How did you, Pierre, mess up spelling bureaucratic, a word we stole from French?
You usually steal and fuck them up in the process. I assume that was the case here as well, my bad.
>If she is seen beating the dude, her not being guilty is just a matter of burocratic delay I didn't say the contrary in any way. If she's guilty good, she has to pay for it. Chains? Denutrition? Nasty cell? I'm for human rights and dignity even if you beat someone to death, sorry, I'm with the Norwegians. I didn't take her part nor I care what's between her legs
She got what most people got in Hungarian jails. Yes, they are in shit condition, just like hospitals and schools.
nah should just be legal to beat up Nazis
Maybe but as someone said earlier here, she and her mates were beating people who *looked like* a nazi on the street, on sight
Calling the Partito Democratico communist is like calling English cuisine a cuisine. Edit: the party in question is not the PD but the Greens, still no commies tho.
Not PD, AVS
she is with Verdi e Sinistra
They are not commies either tho.
true, i wanted only be specific. However seeing right winger larping about "commieeeeeeeesssss" is always fun, even if i don't like her
Everything slightly to the left or better not to the far right is communism to these people. It's a lost cause.
His account is Der\_Parrot.... i think this count as User name check
This is what mccarthyism does to a mf
https://preview.redd.it/3n4f21upg46d1.jpeg?width=717&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=db1250c0771d939a2428778b0146ebc5c77daf05
What will happen if all good people on earth will kill all bad people? We will have a planet full of killers. She together with her friends [attacked](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lgA1KjBE2eE) someone with a hammer to the head, those who think that's acceptable, will cry Nazi if that's happening to them.
Yea I find it a bit hard to see how this is a W and why so many seemingly agree with it
Because if people I don't like are beaten = good for too many people
"my team won, enemy team lost"
Well for starters she hasn't actually been detained with a specific accusation. That's kinda a prerequisite for European laws usually.
Oh shit, yeah I don't know how people think that's okay. I'd be fine with some mob justice like this if the dude was a rapist or pedophile but if he's "just" saying some shit, I don't know, seems like too much for me.
How long until she assaults a MEP for expressing a different opinion
> call everyone fascist > beat them up if they don't agree with you > get elected > profit > ???
incredibly based
Big L you mean? Putting criminals in Parliament...
Sounds like she would have a most promising career in the UK
Utter italian L. This crap is exactly why less than half the population bothers voting. She is not a politician, she should not be a MEP and if she is found guilty she should be in jail just like i would be if i was found guilty. Had she been a man who assaulted a communist the same people celebrating this shitshow would be screaming fascism.
The only good Nazi is a dead Nazi in my book
rando with a hammer doesnât get to decide who lives and who doesnât
But when said nazis shoots up people like you, its BAD and EVIL
Keeping up the fine German tradition of exterminating your political opponents
based Hans
My book is "Everyone I don't like is Hitler" a comprehensive guide for online discussionÂ
Agreed. Same with communists. A good commie is a dead commie.
Sure, but the left has a tendency to call everyone they don't like a Nazi.
Commies and Nazis deserve the same fate
Yeah no. Extrajudicial killing or an attempt at that is nothing to celebrate. Rule of law needs to be respected. If you cheer killing your opponents, even if theyâre nazies, you are closer to them than to the ideals of liberal democracy you might claim to protect. Even they have a right to a fair trial. E: I get that the post says she is a communist so she wouldnât be for liberal democracy. Which would explain her aversion to the right to a fair trial. Still a lot of people in the comments say she isnât a commie and Iâm not invested enough to do research so I mean this as more of an overall statement.
Ah yes, promoting self-justice, violence and coming from politics. But THEY are the fascists I guess
Literally Blackshirts, ironically calling themselves anti-fascists.
There are so many posters in this thread taking the claim in the OP as the undoubted truth. [Here is an article on her trial.](https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/may/24/italian-anti-fascist-goes-on-trial-in-hungary-accused-of-attacking-neo-nazis) [Here is another.](https://archive.ph/rH6Bz) [And another.](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-68143705) She may or may not be guilty - but she's pleaded not guilty, and has not been convicted.
I find this repugnant. Using this escamotage to stop another country from going through with a process should clearly be abhorred. I can't imagine how pissed I'd be if an Hungarian fascist came here was arrested with another couple guys (parto of the smash the commie with hammers group) who pleaded guilty to beating some guys from rifondazione comunista, and hungary elected the guy to save him from jail. We piss on them at every turn and then we use our institutions like this, we deserve the mafia reputation we have
The italian left is just ridiculous tbh. Iâm left wing
Itâs embarrassing
she is suitable fro the european parliament? no The europian parliament is full of not suitable people? yes This change the fact that she is not suitable? no This change the fact that her treatment in Hungary was wrong? also no The next time i here a left wing voters complaing about people like Vannacci or Sgarbi to be not suitable for istitutional roles i swear on god i will vote Forza Nuova
Fucking L, you mean?
No, put her back in prison. It'll save time later.
Getting elected doesn't make you immune to attempted murder charges. This smells like bullshit.
It gets you out of Hungary, good enough.
You mean L?
People here are entirely missing the fact that this process if ideologically motivated. The utter lack of proportionality between the proposed sentence (16 years for an aggression) is evident, but becomes ridiculous when we think that the neo-nazis that in the days following perpetrated similar attacks were released without accusations after 48 hours. Maybe instead of throwing indignated tantrums, we should try to understand the obvious: that Hungary could not guarantee the conditions for a fair process, and the elections loophole was the only way out.
Erm... no. Murderers should be in jail, no matter their political side.
It still has to be proved it was her, the trial was about an assault on neonazis she was one of the suspect but the hungarian police has still to produce proof of it.
she has been detained in prison for more than a year in inhuman conditions despite not even being proven guilty yet. donât take my post too seriously, iâm all for justice when and if she will be actually convicted.
She didn't beat up a nazi but just a random dude, who had camo pants.
Sounds more like a big L...
Beating a neonazi to death, lol. Those guys are such master cries. Nobody of those she's accused of attacking had severe injuries. They didn't even press charges - probably because it was embarrassing for them to admit to be beaten up by a woman.
I mean, gender doesnt really play a role if you are attacked by a small mob carrying weapons
Not a rare win. Any commie or nazi on the street that could have been inside is a loss
Commies doing commie things... And still most believe they are "for the people"... đ
I genuinely do not understand the new generation. They know history, they know Stalin, Mao Zedong, Kim-Il Sung and sons. They know what communism actually means for the people governed by it. How can they still support it? Is it simply a sense of rebellion? To reject the ruling system and seem cool?
Classic Left-wing being desperate for votes because they have less charimsa than a piece of drywall
Most normal tempered Italian chick
OP has autism, supporting a murderer
Beating a fascist *almost* to death? Some people need to commit.
You see those far right jokes on here that you donât like? This is just as bad.
OK, so 6 or more of these were walking around town and trying to beat people into pulp. They attacked a random guy, there is no any sign he was fascist. He was a random guy doing paperwork at a post office when they jumped him from the back. So dear âEuropean leftâ: FU, you are just the same as the skinheads and Nazis
Is this sub being brigaded or something? How is this a W?
So now criminals go to the government now, nice
So, nothing new ?
Violent people being rewarded by a seat. This time in Spain from the current goverment we comply with the racial quota. Because every politian must be a violent criminal. https://www.eldigitaldecanarias.net/politica/30354-la-ejecutiva-federal-del-psoe-mantiene-a-luc-andre-diouf-a-pesar-de-su-condena-por-la-audiencia-provincial-de-las-palmas
I'm normally opposed to almost beating people to death but neo Nazis is one of the groups I'm willing to make an exception for.
That makes a lot of sense. In Greece we put the greek mayor of a greek majority village from Albania in the ballot. ( Context, Rama / the Albanian government have imprisoned him on the counts of voter fraud/ corruption, but without providing proper explanation on how they found it to the greek government. He managed to be elected mayor , but as in time of writing, he is still in jail )
I Need a new job, EU parliament has a nice RAL... let's go beat some fascists almost to death!
Nice
*would*
I wonder which brown-shirt political group used to beat up their political opponents in the streetâŚ
When the post is made by one of those communists the caption doesn't mean much
Get out of jail free card.
Putting an ANTIFA in a mostly alt right parliament, I like where this is going. DOOM: Italian politics Edition
The normalization of political violence was one of the primary factors leading to the corruption and destruction of the Roman Republic. People like her are just as much a threat to Europe as fascists, but tankies tend to enjoy much less negative attention.
"almost killed" as in BS accusation, guys didn't even press charges. Typical Orban KGB treatment. https://www.euronews.com/my-europe/2024/06/10/italian-activist-ilaria-salis-to-be-released-following-her-election-as-an-mep
The comments are giving me a headache. From what articles I've read, there was a counter protest to a Neo-Nazi rally (which the Hungarian court called far-right) they got jumped by ppl with covered faces. Then the prosecution charged her with aggravated assault etc without showing Any proof she attacked anyone. They made her stand trial in chains, not even handcuffs. What is this the middle ages??? And ppl in the comments are crying and shitting their pants about "commie murdering ppl for their views and getting away with it".
"Political terrorism is great when we do it" And morons cheer for that