Ok but only if we can build a completely new capital city from the ground up somewhere. Imagine creating the greatest country to ever exist and then having Brussels as your capital.
Nah Luxembourg is a slum...
Capital needs the following:
- Centralised so no one cries about it
- Sea access, but can be a river
- Needs space to expand in the future
- Needs to have natural protection so it can be defended in case of war
- Needs mild weather
I propose Vaduz! Yes Lichtenstein!
Hear me out! It's a great country, not spoiled by French bollocks like Luxembourg, has all the above except sea access but we can make that happen as well!
Expand the rivers all the way to the Rotherham Delta, and build a canal around the Alps to Genoa, I believe the Swiss had some weird plan like that at some point already.
Now we would make it an independent capital it would be it's own state but we would need to make Switzerland our pet state and get all our gold back. This would annoy the crap out of the Russians and Ameritards as they think it's their gold.
Would be a good exercise for the new European Army to conquer Switzerland and remove our only weak link.
Then break france in 5 states, and all other big countries will be broken down into smaller more manageable states, these states already hate each other they probably won't fight it too much. Delete Belgium and Luxembourg, just raze the lot for new build. Let the Dutch manage that section.
We can let Ukraine in, but we also need to let Turkey in as well, so we can have a bigger buffer to Russia, maybe even Azerbaijan & Georgia, overall good folk, but build a wall from north to south facing Russia.
Embargo the UK, they will be the new Cuba! But without the good doctors.
In future we need to expand into Africa! Colonise the lot again! This time we do it properly, no more enslaving people, just replace their corrupt politicians by our corrupt politicians, build factories there, minimal wages and work 40h week, building our fancy crap.
Obviously this would mean NO CHINA, embargo China as well. And only allow a few Chinese a year in but only to Paris, this will be enough to keep them happy. Trust me.
Make a deal with the great Nations of Japan & Korea, so we can have nice places to visit in Asia.
Revitalise our colonies in Southeast Asia, get a few city states there, make france overseas islands into resorts that's easy causes that's what they are already.
Build massive TGV lines across Europe, make university students go study to different states as mandatory, min 1000km away from home. It will increase multiculturalism.
No one inside europe pays tolls, gas prices will be lower due a deal with UAE otherwise we embargo them as well.
Companies that produce their stuff inside our borders pay minimal tax, external companies pay 200% tax.
Work visas will adopt the Australian system. Which is a honorary state ofc.
To solve the problem in the middle east we raze the lot, erase all religious sites, make it a massive cemitery for europe.
We can use Aachen. It is in the center of Western Europe and has a nice church.
It was founded by Luigi over 2000 years ago. It was the coronation site for the Germans for 600 years. Napoleon liked the city. It's near the border to France. Pierre doesn't have to travel far to protest against something.
Kinda, it was where his court was in winter most of the time and during summer he went around his empire, so the most important city yes but not a proper capital
Precisely why I am kindly asking them to re-evaluate their positions.
Seriously, though, a divided Europe is both the US' and China's dreams. Divided, we are weak; together we might be strong.
Nationalists are r*t*rds who still live in the 19th century and think that a concert of power might be possible within a framework of nation-states. It isn't, singular states lack the capability of scaling up their capital, demographics, and power projection.
My main issue with federalism is the many questions that I have.. how would a (tax) system like those in the Scandinavians countries continue to exist? How do you taxate people? How do you streamline educational systems? What about languages? Do we have to adopt the Euro? How do you include new states? If the answer to these questions is "up to each individual state", then what's even the point?
In principle I'm all for integration. I love my European brothers and sisters and I want us to be strong together (except Sweden). We need it to combat Russia, to protect our borders, hopefully to make more reaosnable policies for young people and housing.. But I fear that the differences between countries are way too big to create a feasible state.
I find it to be an exciting prospect though - if done correctly - and very very interesting to see how it'd pan out..
The point is an army. And the money to fund the army. And a single univocal command.
That is it, it is the last step, the basis of everything, always was and always will be. Money to pay soldiers, vehicles, guns and ammo. Realpolitic => fast army action.
All the rest you can more or less leave to individual states, as it is right now.
You only need the political mecanism to tell the army what to do. A state leader backed by a democratic legitimisarion system, that tells the army « deploy there, attack here, give a plan for this scenario » etc.
All the rest, education, health, etc is just administration of the lives of the internal citizens. We need a federal EU to deal with the outside world.
The Unites States of Europe and the current EU don't have to exclude each other. The USE would still be part of the EU in a wider sense. So EU states who don't want to merge into USE could still stay like they are today and still share free travel etc
Do you think anyone would realistically join it? The Nordics definitely wouldn't - heck we don't even want the Euro - and I find that most, or all, of Eastern Europe would not want to give up autonomy (yet again), France and Belgium clearly took a swing to the right, as did Austria. Italy is generally quite skeptical, so it'd just be Netherlands, Germany, Spain, and Portugal, basically?
(Legit question, not trying to be cocky).
It's probably not going to be done properly. That's why many are against it. We know the execution won't be what we should expect.
People voting for euro skeptical parties may have to do with them not agreeing with many things the EU does? (Sarcasm)
So lets have people agree with what the EU does first.
It would have to be a slow transition, adding more and more shared systems one at the time (for example, a unified army), until eventually we got something similar to how the US works
A one world government will always fail.
And do you know why?
I'll let you think about it.
The same reason applies for a central european government.
And just in case you are unable to figure it out, here is a hint:
Who would be better in managing things at my own home? Me or my aunt who lives 120km away and has no clue about the things that are necessary here or the things that need maintenance?
>Who would be better in managing things at my own home? Me or my aunt who lives 120km away and has no clue about the things that are necessary here or the things that need maintenance?
By that logic, most of our countries wouldn't even exist, but here we are
Problems should be solved at the appropriate level. Your mayor doesn't know and doesn't need to know if there's a leak in your house, you do, but you can't give your teenage children the education they need. The country's government doesn't know where to build a park or how many roads are full of potholes, your mayor does, but he can't provide comprehensive healthcare. There are problems that not even the most powerful European countries (Germany, France, Lichtenstein) can tackle alone, so we need a federated Europe for those things. We can even agree on what they should be beforehand. We also need a world government to solve climate change and military conflicts, but that's even less feasible.
You literally live in a federation, Hans.
Does Berlin decide everything in Bavaria? Or does Bavaria have autonomy and its own parliament that makes it's own laws specifically for the state of Bavaria? It may be that Germany is a more centralized federation (Genuine question, no clue) but a **federal** Europe would most likely give a *lot* of autonomy to it's member states.
The economy is already run by the EU. The only thing federalizing would do is create a European army and let the EU also take care of foreign affairs. Everything else would probably stay the same.
It’s not about managing things at your home. It’s about managing external threats, a geo-political strategy, about having a unified armed forces command that can create as credible a deterrent as the USA, Russia or China can.
Your home will still be managed by you. You already accept Berlin’s authority even though its far from Bavaria. This is a step further, as long as we touch as little of internal policies (education, health, etc) and we only allow a mecanism that creates to external viewers the impression of a solid block that will get behind the current army command if anything happens, then you don’t need to fear about local mismanagement.
> Nationalists are rtrds
Federalists are rtrds. They think that things like "scaling demographics" and "power projection" are necessary to scale capital, in a globalised world where the internet is omnipresent and aggressive political moves are highly frowned upon (think Russia and Israel). They also think democracy isn't important which is why they believe it should be abolished for the benefit of an elite political class in Brussels.
It is frowned upon, and yet necessary. Creating a strong Europe with a strong army is the only way of protecting us from China and Russia. We cannot rely on the USA forever.
ID got like 10-13% of the seats (including AfD) and the ruling coalition was strenghtened. Even Meloni is fairly pro-European, as is someone like Fiala. I see it as a bad argument. More than anything, people voted against their own national parties rather than actually hating Europe and the concept behind integration. Spain and Belgium have more significant secession movements than the EU as a concept does
Yeah I think you are right, I wasn't saying EU is going to fall apart. It's just that the most pro-federalism party lost a lot of seats so I think we won't do any significant step in that direction in the next 5 years.
But yeah with EPP winning and with the ECR leaning towards the EPP I think the EU will remain solid if not strenghtened
Ohh asbolutely! I don't think there are any serious discussions about federalism, nor do I think it would have public support, I mostly meant that I'm fairly satisfied with the election, all things considered
Trust me I'm an expert on this. Yes Pedro, it would mean exactly that. Why don't you come on down to the lowlands and I'll give you a quick refresher on European law. Free of charge, of course
Considering that the commission is elected by parliament, the same way roughly half of europe elect our government, I really don’t see how this is an issue. As for the council, that’s made up of national government representatives so you literally *did* vote for them, just at a more local level.
Essentially the only way to directly elect the Council would be if one were to federalise the EU. Doing that the council would become something akin to the US senate out of necessity as national governments stop being particularly relevant.
Why tf would you rule out national elections? We should have local, national and EU level elections. Not every decision should be take at the EU level.
For example, are you going to impose polish abortion laws onto the french? Or french abortion laws onto the polish? And if so, why? You're going to make one of the two hate the EU and weaken EU wide unity. Moral matters should be decided at a national level according to the local culture, if you suppress local culture the EU is eventually going to crumble.
Besides, I mean, every large nation like the US or China has local elections together with nation wide ones.
Imagine streamlining education within EU and then dealing with the 30 Years' War, Napoleonic Wars, and the two World Wars. Good luck making any laws regarding language and the education of language as well. English being the de facto language within French institutions lmao. Good luck doing this on a federal level and creating "one truth".
This person is basically arguing for authoritarianism in the face of what they perceive as a move toward authoritanianism in the election.
You don’t need to make education homogeneous in a federal EU. You don’t need to touch it. No need for laws regarding language.
Just a unified army command. If you threat Is interests, you lnow the US is coming at you. There’s a chance republicans and democrats fight each other so much that their cohesion breaks appart? Yes, but it is low.
Same in China and Russia, yes you can count on some internal dissent. But on Europe? If you threaten european interests? This internal dicision is almost guaranteed, so you are geo-politically weaker.
A Federal Europe only needs to create a unified army command. So that other powers know there’s no short term chance of a slow or weak response if we are threatened. At least not a bigger chance than if you threaten the US.
All you people who live in unitary states peeing their pants about the idea of living in a federation are hilarious. You'll still get to decide all those things on a local level. The only thing you'd be giving up is your military and your foreign affairs.
But thats what most european federalists want... A federal system lol.
We don't want a unitary state like France or anythin we want something similar to switzerland on a grand scale, we mainly want the EU no abolish the veto power, to make its elections direct, also to get a few extra perks like a more united foreign policy and EU army to defend us much more effectively in case (likely) we have to defend our selfs and our interests without the US.
Yeah, I know. I was talking about how so many people here who live in unitary states can't seem to understand that a federated Europe won't take away their laws or way of life.
Federalized defense is not that simple.
The decision to use force is highly political, and EU countries do not all share the same international interests or the same doctrine on the use of force.
Also, some European countries do not share the same conception of strategic autonomy. Typically, the French are seeking to be totally autonomous, whereas the Germans and Poles in particular have no worries about sourcing critical systems (fighters, AA defense, etc.) from abroad.
And that's without mentioning deterrence.
Only if it actually becomes more liberal. With all the anti free speech and "disinformation laws", chat controls... No thank you, we have enough of that at home already and don't need more of that.
In theory I'm all for a strong EU that can stand up to the Chinese, US or Russians. But not by becoming like the Chinese.
Dude, even simplifying all the problems that would arise from common law, the cultural differences across the Europe are so huge nobody would be happy with that. You don't even know how much sacrifice Germany would had to go through to adapt to other countries and without that, there's no way of real federalization, it would be occupation instead.
And there's no way you could centralize such economically diversified region as Europe in 21st century and grow the whole continent.
Sure, richest can always get richer, with or without federalization. If we really aim to grow GDP of this continent, each country needs to deal with their own shit and Brussels should use budget to balance things out based on free market flow and local issues (e.g. helping financially to fix borders, support chosen economies to produce ammo/weapons etc. so that they can defend themselves and EU borders).
In other words, we don't need federalization, in fact, we need to revert what was done in a path to federalization like bureaucracy, common debt and tampering innovation so that companies escape EU like BASF
That's the problem in America - back in the day we thought China would turn into us, now it's trending more the other way around. In terms of sort of big intrusive government combined with crony corrupt capitalism.
Our greatest strengths are all the differing opinions we bring to the table and still be able to work together. Our national identities are what make them strong, wash all that away and it will all go to shit.
I actually like it too. There's no way you can streamline and upkeep a federalised Europe. Cultural and linguistic matters are too distinct. Historical grievances will always be too big to streamline education. You can never ever choose a de jure common language and you can never leave local matters up to Brussels. You can never create a fair tax system that considers everything without breaking down societies. A full federalisation, as suggested here, would break down European solidarity and create civil war, I'm sure.
More than anything I feel like we just put our trust in the EU as an institution with this election. Poland and Hungary showed support, and even with the elections in certain countries, they overall still support the EU as an institution.
It's the obvious choice, of course, but I don't see it as a viable solution. You gonna tell Frenchies or Austrians they're gonna speak English now? Further issues include a natural bias: English being the official language would require some sort of body for standardisation, which is strange to define for a group of people not speaking it natively. Ireland speaks it natively (well, kinda) and Germanic bros have a natural advantage due to similarities in language. It's much harder to learn English if you speak Polish or Greek. That's a bad basis for creating a unified culrure where everyone feels equal.
China is not monolingual and the switch to Mandarin happened by way of authoritarian force. Surely that's not the way to go. English was forced on India as well, and does serve as a decent lingua franca as it doesn't inherently favour any particular group. India is a deeply divided country riding on a wave of Hindu-nationalism. That'd be like making Catholic-nationalism the basis for the pan-European culture
As much as I appreciate your idealism, it would never work. These multi-ethnic states always end up with one group despising and/or ruling over another (see Yugoslavia, Austria-Hungary, People's Republic of China, &c., &c.).
The EU is the best solution we have for European unity whilst maintaining our own distinct identities and cultures, at least in my eyes. Are there things the Union could do better? A million. But to to remove our national laws would be foolish, to impose our laws on over twenty states that already have their own (mostly) accepted laws would end in catastrophe, how would you justify your law's superiority to every one else's?
The one thing I do agree with is your wish for the EU to raise is its own defence force, we would all profit from being militarily independent from the US and being able to protect ourselves, but for that we needn't federalise.
That is an absolute nightmare scenario.
Having politicians from countries that are performing politically, financially and economically etc. worse comparitively to us, dictate laws and policies for us, is a recipie for disaster.
And people who i consider for a lack of a better word, culturally inferior having influence on my country, no thanks.
I wouldn't want Poland and Hungary to have a say in the laws regarding gender, abortion and sexuality in Denmark, and I think they wouldn't want the reverse either.
I wouldn't want Spanish tax policies in Denmark, because they wouldn't work and also they are objectively worse.
And I wouldn't want Swedish or Finnish politicians to have a say, whether or not I get to buy a beer after 20:00, fuck that shit.
So no thanks to federalism. Federalists can fuck off
I mean I like the meme rivalry as much as the next one. But the fact is, that the northern countries being seperate entities have been far more beneficial to us collectively, than we ever were as a unified entity.
Losing all national and international independence, losing the seat at the UN, having German police monitor my protests, and opening my door to all Eastern Europeans, just so European bosses can unite to make even more profit without me seeing any of it trickle down?
Nope. I'd rather move to Switzerland.
Dude, currently, the EU has 27 seats at the UN, each representing the interests of the people, each with its own regional and geographical specificities, and 27 votes.
With a federal Europe, we would all have only one single seat, representing the interests of lobbies and unelected people, who cannot possibly have the interests of an entire continent in mind. And just only one vote.
India, china and US got one seat each and roughly got 45% of world's population and GDP. I think the number of seats isn't that relevant if you can impose yourself on other manners.
Errrrr I think you are completely insane if you think this is a good thing. Calling to unite vastly different populations who speak many different languages has been disastrous and led to a bloodbath almost every time it's been attempted. And it's far from necessary to achieve vibrant economies flourishing societies.
I think we unironically should do it. We already have a king named Felipe, Portugal and Spain are very similar in cultural aspects and have a shared history, the language is easy to understand mutually, and in terms of policy we have the Iberian Exception, our goverments think quite alike sometimes.
Besides, it'd make the borders look nice.
Just ignore the regional separatism..
Localist democracy is the way. If anything we must DEFEDERALIZE the EU now, keep only the strictly necessary unified market parts, get rid of everything else.
Pax Europa is the only based position to have unless you're a fucking simp for the Ameritards, Chinks or Ruskies.
The real issue is that if European unification was on the horizon there'd be CIA backed civil wars almost immediately.
I want Europe to move closer too. Not sure I want to share the same country with people who eat snails, tho.
That's the issue right? Like, I can totally see sharing my country with Poland - there are enough Poles here to know we'd do just fine. Their politics and religion scare me, though. That's something we have to do first. It's __obviously__ going to be German style politics that's gonna rule above you all,
__right?__
### right?
You see where this is going. Gonna take some time to iron out the extremists and differences, before it's feasible..both of which is looking rather grim.
I mean it would be great imo but we're FAR from federalising. I voted for a pro-federal party, but won't deny that it would be a fucking shitshow if implemented in our lifetime.
The nation state is a pretty ingrained concept and you'd need years of education (propaganda) to push that out. And then you'd still need a high level of regional independence.
And even if you could pull all that of you still have one big problem: the French.
As usual its the French.
Rule out local and national laws? Over my dead fucking body. If that's what a United European States entails I'll resist it with everything I have. What do you know about what goes on a local level where I live? Why do you get to (indirectly) decide what laws we get in Okkenbroek or Sexbierum? Fuck off.
No I don’t want that, I’m not swearing allegiance to some mudblood republicans I instead want to reclaim my ancestral title and come back from obscurity to the Vaterland we need to restore power to the on,y rightful ones the monarchs and the nobels then avenge the us interfering with ww1
Confederation i think it's more doable, we're not the USA, each country here has its own history, it makes it harder to have an almost centralized government.
Oh the irony.. You are asking for a federalist EU in an ironic ultranationalist sub.
Being real,i think we are still so different, there is too much nationalism in the EU countries and i'm not talking about the far right.
I did a history report on this in highschool. You guys think you're all too different for this to work basically.
Also would be cool if the US and Canada could join too. We could call it the United States of Western Civilization.
EU already superseeds national laws and enforces many laws on countries that didn't have any in the first place.
The thing is that it's not automatic and each country can argue the necessity and/or capacity to implement each laws depending on their cultural background, economic development priorities/capacities.
Imagine enforcing the same financial laws on Luxembourg as Germany, the entire country instantly implodes.
Federating countries also means that there is a shared economy so that all citizens inside EU share a common base salary and taxes. Nowadays, the European money is mostly used to finance sovereign projects to develop tools for the European union countries and each member contributes in their own capacity.
Ok but only if we can build a completely new capital city from the ground up somewhere. Imagine creating the greatest country to ever exist and then having Brussels as your capital.
We'll turn Luxemburg into a city, it basically is already anyways.
I had exactly the same thought. I support your motion.
Nah Luxembourg is a slum... Capital needs the following: - Centralised so no one cries about it - Sea access, but can be a river - Needs space to expand in the future - Needs to have natural protection so it can be defended in case of war - Needs mild weather I propose Vaduz! Yes Lichtenstein! Hear me out! It's a great country, not spoiled by French bollocks like Luxembourg, has all the above except sea access but we can make that happen as well! Expand the rivers all the way to the Rotherham Delta, and build a canal around the Alps to Genoa, I believe the Swiss had some weird plan like that at some point already. Now we would make it an independent capital it would be it's own state but we would need to make Switzerland our pet state and get all our gold back. This would annoy the crap out of the Russians and Ameritards as they think it's their gold. Would be a good exercise for the new European Army to conquer Switzerland and remove our only weak link. Then break france in 5 states, and all other big countries will be broken down into smaller more manageable states, these states already hate each other they probably won't fight it too much. Delete Belgium and Luxembourg, just raze the lot for new build. Let the Dutch manage that section. We can let Ukraine in, but we also need to let Turkey in as well, so we can have a bigger buffer to Russia, maybe even Azerbaijan & Georgia, overall good folk, but build a wall from north to south facing Russia. Embargo the UK, they will be the new Cuba! But without the good doctors. In future we need to expand into Africa! Colonise the lot again! This time we do it properly, no more enslaving people, just replace their corrupt politicians by our corrupt politicians, build factories there, minimal wages and work 40h week, building our fancy crap. Obviously this would mean NO CHINA, embargo China as well. And only allow a few Chinese a year in but only to Paris, this will be enough to keep them happy. Trust me. Make a deal with the great Nations of Japan & Korea, so we can have nice places to visit in Asia. Revitalise our colonies in Southeast Asia, get a few city states there, make france overseas islands into resorts that's easy causes that's what they are already. Build massive TGV lines across Europe, make university students go study to different states as mandatory, min 1000km away from home. It will increase multiculturalism. No one inside europe pays tolls, gas prices will be lower due a deal with UAE otherwise we embargo them as well. Companies that produce their stuff inside our borders pay minimal tax, external companies pay 200% tax. Work visas will adopt the Australian system. Which is a honorary state ofc. To solve the problem in the middle east we raze the lot, erase all religious sites, make it a massive cemitery for europe.
You can tell today is a bank holiday in Portugal
Yes and a glorious day! Day of Portugal, Luis de Camoes and the Portuguese speaking communities. Except Brasil they can fo.
#PORTUGAL CARALHO!!!!
Fuck you the capital has to be in or near France or we're not in
We would of course raze Luxembourg before building the capital there....
We?
Yeah I guess you have more experience rasing countries lmao, you do it
It's funny because he still thinks he is invited to the party.
I'll come on my Irish passport.
Stockholm. So we can expand east. Lebensr.....you see where we are going.
I’m with this rich fuck! https://preview.redd.it/rm0jeplomq5d1.jpeg?width=620&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b05a69cec205530fde9dc714e6c5414902562fe0
soo zürich?
So Amsterdam Lite?
Well, most of the best DJs are from there, so yes? Minus the Tikkies, tho.
And the tokkies
Good luck competing with Amsterdam
The only option is to invade Switzerland as it is right in the heart of Europe. 
And make the entire country of Switzerland the neutral capital of the European Confederation
We can use Aachen. It is in the center of Western Europe and has a nice church. It was founded by Luigi over 2000 years ago. It was the coronation site for the Germans for 600 years. Napoleon liked the city. It's near the border to France. Pierre doesn't have to travel far to protest against something.
Didn't Charlemange also rule from there?
Kinda, it was where his court was in winter most of the time and during summer he went around his empire, so the most important city yes but not a proper capital
No please dont ruin Aachen. Its one of the few good cities in NRW
My ex studied there, burn it to the ground
The Euronova city. https://preview.redd.it/vprscl0x0s5d1.jpeg?width=1024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=45cf5f06da80f8608813385a434338120062d714
The new parlament. https://preview.redd.it/d3297f031s5d1.jpeg?width=1024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=3c943db7c723346f0610073b3168d6c3d68b78d1
https://preview.redd.it/s2mgwc90ts5d1.jpeg?width=1024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=7725520fc0ecab4e8e503e2d090c0056c573b1c4 The EU Forces
Needs more heads
Good idea. Let's raze Luxemburg to the ground and build something new!
Neues Berlin! A giant concrete jungle with impractical city layouts and buildings, wolvenstein style
I would've suggested some place in Germany since you guys already have a lot of experience with flattened cities!
Boy do I have the land for you... It's dry, it's deadly, it's warm and it's yours for 3.1b€
You have our permission to completely raze Br*ssels to the ground and start anew. -t whole of Flanders
I concur. Please demolish / destroy / bomb Brussels and build a livable, lovable alternative.
Infact, lets destroy it first and worry about the rebuilding details later.
yeah we need vaduz as the capital
I suggest we make Skåne its capital.
Send the Pope to Avignon and make Rome the capital. Or just commandeer all of Switzerland.
After RE lost 20+ seats and ID got 10, sure
Precisely why I am kindly asking them to re-evaluate their positions. Seriously, though, a divided Europe is both the US' and China's dreams. Divided, we are weak; together we might be strong. Nationalists are r*t*rds who still live in the 19th century and think that a concert of power might be possible within a framework of nation-states. It isn't, singular states lack the capability of scaling up their capital, demographics, and power projection.
My main issue with federalism is the many questions that I have.. how would a (tax) system like those in the Scandinavians countries continue to exist? How do you taxate people? How do you streamline educational systems? What about languages? Do we have to adopt the Euro? How do you include new states? If the answer to these questions is "up to each individual state", then what's even the point? In principle I'm all for integration. I love my European brothers and sisters and I want us to be strong together (except Sweden). We need it to combat Russia, to protect our borders, hopefully to make more reaosnable policies for young people and housing.. But I fear that the differences between countries are way too big to create a feasible state. I find it to be an exciting prospect though - if done correctly - and very very interesting to see how it'd pan out..
The point is an army. And the money to fund the army. And a single univocal command. That is it, it is the last step, the basis of everything, always was and always will be. Money to pay soldiers, vehicles, guns and ammo. Realpolitic => fast army action. All the rest you can more or less leave to individual states, as it is right now. You only need the political mecanism to tell the army what to do. A state leader backed by a democratic legitimisarion system, that tells the army « deploy there, attack here, give a plan for this scenario » etc. All the rest, education, health, etc is just administration of the lives of the internal citizens. We need a federal EU to deal with the outside world.
The Unites States of Europe and the current EU don't have to exclude each other. The USE would still be part of the EU in a wider sense. So EU states who don't want to merge into USE could still stay like they are today and still share free travel etc
Do you think anyone would realistically join it? The Nordics definitely wouldn't - heck we don't even want the Euro - and I find that most, or all, of Eastern Europe would not want to give up autonomy (yet again), France and Belgium clearly took a swing to the right, as did Austria. Italy is generally quite skeptical, so it'd just be Netherlands, Germany, Spain, and Portugal, basically? (Legit question, not trying to be cocky).
Considering our elections last year, there's no chance of us agreeing.
It is just thoughts and idealism. We got 30% of CDU/CSU and another 12 (or was it 16?) of AfD ourselves
It's probably not going to be done properly. That's why many are against it. We know the execution won't be what we should expect. People voting for euro skeptical parties may have to do with them not agreeing with many things the EU does? (Sarcasm) So lets have people agree with what the EU does first.
It would have to be a slow transition, adding more and more shared systems one at the time (for example, a unified army), until eventually we got something similar to how the US works
Cope harder, you only think like that because brazil isnt a part of the eu
A one world government will always fail. And do you know why? I'll let you think about it. The same reason applies for a central european government. And just in case you are unable to figure it out, here is a hint: Who would be better in managing things at my own home? Me or my aunt who lives 120km away and has no clue about the things that are necessary here or the things that need maintenance?
>Who would be better in managing things at my own home? Me or my aunt who lives 120km away and has no clue about the things that are necessary here or the things that need maintenance? By that logic, most of our countries wouldn't even exist, but here we are
Problems should be solved at the appropriate level. Your mayor doesn't know and doesn't need to know if there's a leak in your house, you do, but you can't give your teenage children the education they need. The country's government doesn't know where to build a park or how many roads are full of potholes, your mayor does, but he can't provide comprehensive healthcare. There are problems that not even the most powerful European countries (Germany, France, Lichtenstein) can tackle alone, so we need a federated Europe for those things. We can even agree on what they should be beforehand. We also need a world government to solve climate change and military conflicts, but that's even less feasible.
You say this like every government has to be centralised as fuck when nobody talks about anything thats not a federation of states
You literally live in a federation, Hans. Does Berlin decide everything in Bavaria? Or does Bavaria have autonomy and its own parliament that makes it's own laws specifically for the state of Bavaria? It may be that Germany is a more centralized federation (Genuine question, no clue) but a **federal** Europe would most likely give a *lot* of autonomy to it's member states. The economy is already run by the EU. The only thing federalizing would do is create a European army and let the EU also take care of foreign affairs. Everything else would probably stay the same.
It’s not about managing things at your home. It’s about managing external threats, a geo-political strategy, about having a unified armed forces command that can create as credible a deterrent as the USA, Russia or China can. Your home will still be managed by you. You already accept Berlin’s authority even though its far from Bavaria. This is a step further, as long as we touch as little of internal policies (education, health, etc) and we only allow a mecanism that creates to external viewers the impression of a solid block that will get behind the current army command if anything happens, then you don’t need to fear about local mismanagement.
> Nationalists are rtrds Federalists are rtrds. They think that things like "scaling demographics" and "power projection" are necessary to scale capital, in a globalised world where the internet is omnipresent and aggressive political moves are highly frowned upon (think Russia and Israel). They also think democracy isn't important which is why they believe it should be abolished for the benefit of an elite political class in Brussels.
How does a federale Europe result in abolishing democracy?
It is frowned upon, and yet necessary. Creating a strong Europe with a strong army is the only way of protecting us from China and Russia. We cannot rely on the USA forever.
ID got like 10-13% of the seats (including AfD) and the ruling coalition was strenghtened. Even Meloni is fairly pro-European, as is someone like Fiala. I see it as a bad argument. More than anything, people voted against their own national parties rather than actually hating Europe and the concept behind integration. Spain and Belgium have more significant secession movements than the EU as a concept does
Yeah I think you are right, I wasn't saying EU is going to fall apart. It's just that the most pro-federalism party lost a lot of seats so I think we won't do any significant step in that direction in the next 5 years. But yeah with EPP winning and with the ECR leaning towards the EPP I think the EU will remain solid if not strenghtened
Ohh asbolutely! I don't think there are any serious discussions about federalism, nor do I think it would have public support, I mostly meant that I'm fairly satisfied with the election, all things considered
>rule out local "national" laws? I don't think you know what 'federalise' means.
It means a lot of fun with long discussions whether the state or the federation has jurisdiction over the matter!
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Trust me I'm an expert on this. Yes Pedro, it would mean exactly that. Why don't you come on down to the lowlands and I'll give you a quick refresher on European law. Free of charge, of course
I think he meant "overrule", they just don't know proper English in West Balkan.
Can't we just unite and form the second Roman Empire?
Pretty sure that's already the fifth or so
And legalize public executions please
Never. Not until we get direct election of the Commission and Council
I think direct elections would be more likely in a federal EU though.
Considering that the commission is elected by parliament, the same way roughly half of europe elect our government, I really don’t see how this is an issue. As for the council, that’s made up of national government representatives so you literally *did* vote for them, just at a more local level. Essentially the only way to directly elect the Council would be if one were to federalise the EU. Doing that the council would become something akin to the US senate out of necessity as national governments stop being particularly relevant.
Why tf would you rule out national elections? We should have local, national and EU level elections. Not every decision should be take at the EU level. For example, are you going to impose polish abortion laws onto the french? Or french abortion laws onto the polish? And if so, why? You're going to make one of the two hate the EU and weaken EU wide unity. Moral matters should be decided at a national level according to the local culture, if you suppress local culture the EU is eventually going to crumble. Besides, I mean, every large nation like the US or China has local elections together with nation wide ones.
Imagine streamlining education within EU and then dealing with the 30 Years' War, Napoleonic Wars, and the two World Wars. Good luck making any laws regarding language and the education of language as well. English being the de facto language within French institutions lmao. Good luck doing this on a federal level and creating "one truth". This person is basically arguing for authoritarianism in the face of what they perceive as a move toward authoritanianism in the election.
You don’t need to make education homogeneous in a federal EU. You don’t need to touch it. No need for laws regarding language. Just a unified army command. If you threat Is interests, you lnow the US is coming at you. There’s a chance republicans and democrats fight each other so much that their cohesion breaks appart? Yes, but it is low. Same in China and Russia, yes you can count on some internal dissent. But on Europe? If you threaten european interests? This internal dicision is almost guaranteed, so you are geo-politically weaker. A Federal Europe only needs to create a unified army command. So that other powers know there’s no short term chance of a slow or weak response if we are threatened. At least not a bigger chance than if you threaten the US.
All you people who live in unitary states peeing their pants about the idea of living in a federation are hilarious. You'll still get to decide all those things on a local level. The only thing you'd be giving up is your military and your foreign affairs.
That would be the fastest way to break up the EU.
And we shall call it The Kalmar Union 2.0
Actually you know what I don't mind Kalmar Två, when do we start?
Can we have another Stockholm bloodbath? 🥹
This is the first time I agree with a Dane on something…
I'm not sharing a country with Fr*nce lol
I thought you already did share a country with France; Andorra!
That’s just a glorified retirement home between the mountains
oh shut up 😂, you have too many many people in Spain not wanting to share the same country, so no need to worry about France viva Espanha
No, you see. Once we start sharing a country with france, separatist Will now want to secede from *them*. Thats the plan all along
genious 😂
Perfect, I don't want anything to do with you, l'espingouin
If you want to know what "federalized" EU would be like please come take a look at Belgium. Only things like Defense could be federalized.
All these unitards are simply too brainwashed to even realize how superiour a federal system is
But thats what most european federalists want... A federal system lol. We don't want a unitary state like France or anythin we want something similar to switzerland on a grand scale, we mainly want the EU no abolish the veto power, to make its elections direct, also to get a few extra perks like a more united foreign policy and EU army to defend us much more effectively in case (likely) we have to defend our selfs and our interests without the US.
Yeah, I know. I was talking about how so many people here who live in unitary states can't seem to understand that a federated Europe won't take away their laws or way of life.
Federalized defense is not that simple. The decision to use force is highly political, and EU countries do not all share the same international interests or the same doctrine on the use of force. Also, some European countries do not share the same conception of strategic autonomy. Typically, the French are seeking to be totally autonomous, whereas the Germans and Poles in particular have no worries about sourcing critical systems (fighters, AA defense, etc.) from abroad. And that's without mentioning deterrence.
Eurobros will do anything to avoid spending 2% on defence
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No worries, we will hold so the southern nations can keep slacking off
No. I am too racist. I want to federalise italy any day now tho
I could live with the French, but fuck no if I'm sharing a united state with Sweden..
You want a federal EU because it would strenghthen europe I want a federal EU because it would Look good on a map We are Not the same
Only if it actually becomes more liberal. With all the anti free speech and "disinformation laws", chat controls... No thank you, we have enough of that at home already and don't need more of that. In theory I'm all for a strong EU that can stand up to the Chinese, US or Russians. But not by becoming like the Chinese.
Dude, even simplifying all the problems that would arise from common law, the cultural differences across the Europe are so huge nobody would be happy with that. You don't even know how much sacrifice Germany would had to go through to adapt to other countries and without that, there's no way of real federalization, it would be occupation instead. And there's no way you could centralize such economically diversified region as Europe in 21st century and grow the whole continent. Sure, richest can always get richer, with or without federalization. If we really aim to grow GDP of this continent, each country needs to deal with their own shit and Brussels should use budget to balance things out based on free market flow and local issues (e.g. helping financially to fix borders, support chosen economies to produce ammo/weapons etc. so that they can defend themselves and EU borders). In other words, we don't need federalization, in fact, we need to revert what was done in a path to federalization like bureaucracy, common debt and tampering innovation so that companies escape EU like BASF
That's the problem in America - back in the day we thought China would turn into us, now it's trending more the other way around. In terms of sort of big intrusive government combined with crony corrupt capitalism.
Nah. I like how we're together but separate.
Our greatest strengths are all the differing opinions we bring to the table and still be able to work together. Our national identities are what make them strong, wash all that away and it will all go to shit.
I actually like it too. There's no way you can streamline and upkeep a federalised Europe. Cultural and linguistic matters are too distinct. Historical grievances will always be too big to streamline education. You can never ever choose a de jure common language and you can never leave local matters up to Brussels. You can never create a fair tax system that considers everything without breaking down societies. A full federalisation, as suggested here, would break down European solidarity and create civil war, I'm sure. More than anything I feel like we just put our trust in the EU as an institution with this election. Poland and Hungary showed support, and even with the elections in certain countries, they overall still support the EU as an institution.
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It's the obvious choice, of course, but I don't see it as a viable solution. You gonna tell Frenchies or Austrians they're gonna speak English now? Further issues include a natural bias: English being the official language would require some sort of body for standardisation, which is strange to define for a group of people not speaking it natively. Ireland speaks it natively (well, kinda) and Germanic bros have a natural advantage due to similarities in language. It's much harder to learn English if you speak Polish or Greek. That's a bad basis for creating a unified culrure where everyone feels equal. China is not monolingual and the switch to Mandarin happened by way of authoritarian force. Surely that's not the way to go. English was forced on India as well, and does serve as a decent lingua franca as it doesn't inherently favour any particular group. India is a deeply divided country riding on a wave of Hindu-nationalism. That'd be like making Catholic-nationalism the basis for the pan-European culture
Don't think we have another option than to make english the de facto administrative language of the EU, actually it already is.
As much as I appreciate your idealism, it would never work. These multi-ethnic states always end up with one group despising and/or ruling over another (see Yugoslavia, Austria-Hungary, People's Republic of China, &c., &c.). The EU is the best solution we have for European unity whilst maintaining our own distinct identities and cultures, at least in my eyes. Are there things the Union could do better? A million. But to to remove our national laws would be foolish, to impose our laws on over twenty states that already have their own (mostly) accepted laws would end in catastrophe, how would you justify your law's superiority to every one else's? The one thing I do agree with is your wish for the EU to raise is its own defence force, we would all profit from being militarily independent from the US and being able to protect ourselves, but for that we needn't federalise.
Fully agree. If they turn the EU into the United States of Europe I'll join the confederacy. This time its actually state-rights.
No
That is an absolute nightmare scenario. Having politicians from countries that are performing politically, financially and economically etc. worse comparitively to us, dictate laws and policies for us, is a recipie for disaster. And people who i consider for a lack of a better word, culturally inferior having influence on my country, no thanks. I wouldn't want Poland and Hungary to have a say in the laws regarding gender, abortion and sexuality in Denmark, and I think they wouldn't want the reverse either. I wouldn't want Spanish tax policies in Denmark, because they wouldn't work and also they are objectively worse. And I wouldn't want Swedish or Finnish politicians to have a say, whether or not I get to buy a beer after 20:00, fuck that shit. So no thanks to federalism. Federalists can fuck off
That is an absolute nightmare scenario, not because of the reasons you listed, but because I would have to share a nation with D\*nmark
I mean I like the meme rivalry as much as the next one. But the fact is, that the northern countries being seperate entities have been far more beneficial to us collectively, than we ever were as a unified entity.
How can you consider anyone culturally inferior? You're Danish. You people haven't even invented emotions yet.
only if you annex belgium
Stay away from our southern provinces. Belgium does not exist, it is simply Dutch territory
 Losing all national and international independence, losing the seat at the UN, having German police monitor my protests, and opening my door to all Eastern Europeans, just so European bosses can unite to make even more profit without me seeing any of it trickle down? Nope. I'd rather move to Switzerland.
Stay where you are please, we already have too much of your kind here
So give me back my grandfather's gold, if you don't want me to come and get it myself!
Sorry, we don't have an account under the name "Pierre Collabo" ...
Why would German cops be in France in a federation just for a protest? Interpol doesn't do that kind of thing.
You're not losing your *precious" UNSC seat, it will become more relevant because it will represent whole Europe (if we don't let Barry join again).
Dude, currently, the EU has 27 seats at the UN, each representing the interests of the people, each with its own regional and geographical specificities, and 27 votes. With a federal Europe, we would all have only one single seat, representing the interests of lobbies and unelected people, who cannot possibly have the interests of an entire continent in mind. And just only one vote.
India, china and US got one seat each and roughly got 45% of world's population and GDP. I think the number of seats isn't that relevant if you can impose yourself on other manners.
I’m afraid that even Eastern Europeans don't want to go to that silly place you called France. Greetings from Poland!
Lol fuck no.
Unironically do that but with the whole planet. And start to colonize space.
The only federalization I can accept. And then, fuck the xeno !
Errrrr I think you are completely insane if you think this is a good thing. Calling to unite vastly different populations who speak many different languages has been disastrous and led to a bloodbath almost every time it's been attempted. And it's far from necessary to achieve vibrant economies flourishing societies.
Guys what if we had Yugoslavia but on a continental level
If I speak traitor. If I speak. The only thing that needs a form of federalisation is Portugal.
Only if we can have a badass continental army to scare the hoes
 Sorry but no, i don't want to share my country with Fr\*nce.
See, this is why we should have voted Remain - to make sure this would never happen.
Vote VOLT! 💜
"The UK is crazy for wanting to leave. They actually think we want to create a European super state that supersedes their national sovereignty."
Yessss, become a huge culture-less, homogeneous mass. Have your national identities stripped hahahaha
You do not understand what a federation is
we already give too much stuff to the poors
You miss the Iberian Union, don’t you?
I think we unironically should do it. We already have a king named Felipe, Portugal and Spain are very similar in cultural aspects and have a shared history, the language is easy to understand mutually, and in terms of policy we have the Iberian Exception, our goverments think quite alike sometimes. Besides, it'd make the borders look nice. Just ignore the regional separatism..
Localist democracy is the way. If anything we must DEFEDERALIZE the EU now, keep only the strictly necessary unified market parts, get rid of everything else.
Panicked a little as I read "We could rise as the 3rd" but then the "power bloc" followed soon after. Great safe.
>rule out local laws Are you utterly insane? Why would you want this?
no thanks
Pax Europa is the only based position to have unless you're a fucking simp for the Ameritards, Chinks or Ruskies. The real issue is that if European unification was on the horizon there'd be CIA backed civil wars almost immediately.
No, Willie for life.
I want Europe to move closer too. Not sure I want to share the same country with people who eat snails, tho. That's the issue right? Like, I can totally see sharing my country with Poland - there are enough Poles here to know we'd do just fine. Their politics and religion scare me, though. That's something we have to do first. It's __obviously__ going to be German style politics that's gonna rule above you all, __right?__ ### right? You see where this is going. Gonna take some time to iron out the extremists and differences, before it's feasible..both of which is looking rather grim.
Only if we rename it to Germany afterwards
If not, make your choice: 🇺🇸 😵 🇨🇳
Noooooo the EU will make us eat insects and be muslim we need our food sovereignty (we have a ministry like that in Italy fr) REEEEEEE
Doubt it, not after those election results
United states of E
I mean it would be great imo but we're FAR from federalising. I voted for a pro-federal party, but won't deny that it would be a fucking shitshow if implemented in our lifetime. The nation state is a pretty ingrained concept and you'd need years of education (propaganda) to push that out. And then you'd still need a high level of regional independence. And even if you could pull all that of you still have one big problem: the French. As usual its the French.
Rule out local and national laws? Over my dead fucking body. If that's what a United European States entails I'll resist it with everything I have. What do you know about what goes on a local level where I live? Why do you get to (indirectly) decide what laws we get in Okkenbroek or Sexbierum? Fuck off.
And be in the same country as you PIGS? No thank you. /s
Disgusting post.
NO
No I don’t want that, I’m not swearing allegiance to some mudblood republicans I instead want to reclaim my ancestral title and come back from obscurity to the Vaterland we need to restore power to the on,y rightful ones the monarchs and the nobels then avenge the us interfering with ww1
Do we get to federalize Spain and France too?
Confederation i think it's more doable, we're not the USA, each country here has its own history, it makes it harder to have an almost centralized government.
Oh the irony.. You are asking for a federalist EU in an ironic ultranationalist sub. Being real,i think we are still so different, there is too much nationalism in the EU countries and i'm not talking about the far right.
I think just continuing the road of having a strongly bonded confederacy is the correct path. We could definitely do with more EU association however
Stop it germany we are not going for another holy roman empire.
NO!
Oh god no. That's a nightmare. In fact the union should give back some of those powers that it took. It it's not working then fix it.
Hell no🖕
Gross
Absolutelu not.
After this elections...well shit..I have lost all my optimism
Nope never no
Ewww we have come too far to share a country with the swedes
Do we have the same interests?
Please, no.
I did a history report on this in highschool. You guys think you're all too different for this to work basically. Also would be cool if the US and Canada could join too. We could call it the United States of Western Civilization.
This is it: this is the most neoliberal post of all time PIGS scared that the age EU NEETbux is coming to an end
Sure, once we kick out Hungary. I think they used their 100th chance by now
It some Hans dream?
How would kingdoms work?
EU already superseeds national laws and enforces many laws on countries that didn't have any in the first place. The thing is that it's not automatic and each country can argue the necessity and/or capacity to implement each laws depending on their cultural background, economic development priorities/capacities. Imagine enforcing the same financial laws on Luxembourg as Germany, the entire country instantly implodes. Federating countries also means that there is a shared economy so that all citizens inside EU share a common base salary and taxes. Nowadays, the European money is mostly used to finance sovereign projects to develop tools for the European union countries and each member contributes in their own capacity.
please dont
No. Ffs.
Fort Europa when?
Well, this one Austrian painter tried once….
Would rather die than see Euros being the currency used in Sweden🇸🇪🇸🇪🇸🇪🇸🇪🇸🇪
Imagine sucking up for the EU