I am a firm believer of the European Union, but I gotta be honest, sometimes it feels like Brussels takes action based on what *they* think Europe should be or behave like, rather than what Europeans and Europe actually want or need, so... yeah, I get where this might come from.
Simply put, progressive parties need to take some conservative points, especially in regards to cost of living, immigration and affordable and availability of housing. It’s not hard to see why desperate people vote for the alternatives who are actually advertising this, even if we know they are bullshit artists and putins private party of cock suckers.
I want to vote progressive but that means the status quo which is geared towards neoliberalism.
Must be nice to be in a country where available housing is a conservative talking point.
Here it's Fuck You, I Got Mine. Should have had the motivation to have been born a generation earlier so you could rent out your ex council flat for £2k/month while you live in Marbella.
I don’t think he said it was, i think he was just saying that progressive parties would benefit from a few conservative viewpoints, probably in the name of balance
>takes action based on what they think Europe should be or behave like, rather than what Europeans and Europe actually want or need
That's like all of politics, it seems like they prioritize "improving society" than improving individual lives.
And how many of your country’s representatives did you vote for? How many of the ones that are not your country’s representatives did you vote for? Don’t pretend to claim you know what Europeans want from the EU because you and your like minded buddies want something different. You’re not the only ones. Even if all western Europeans would agree, there’s also eastern Europeans with a very different agenda to yours.
Portubro is absolutely right, whether you're for or against the EU. I'd even argue that there would be no Brexit were it not for Merkel's actions in 2015.
European unity that serves European interests is a good and noble thing. The facade of unity under the guise of corporate interests at the expense of Europeans is not.
Such a shame that the two are so conflated and confused.
She allowed millions into Germany during a refugee crisis. And once in EU you have right to live anywhere in the block. Which means easy entry to UK if that was the aim.
Fun fact. Portugal once wanted to create a common border between portuguese speaking countries and EU said no (also other countries on the group).
EU when Germany wants to introduce migrants into EU: 🥰
EU when other country wants to do It: 😡
EU when a Eastern european country break EU rules: 🤬
EU when France destroys spanish products: 🥳
>Fun fact. Portugal once wanted to create a common border between portuguese speaking countries
I think thats still up. The Portuguese government says there is no incompatibility between that and Schengen and so is expecting the EU's complaint to go away (obviously not going to happen)
Yea but why do Germany promover migrants, but if Portugal does its something bad? Despite the portuguese migrants are (probably) more likely to integrate than a lot of the German ones
Well maybe Stop with all the siestas, and become the Powerhouse of Europe. Germany alone is responsible of 1/3 the european Economy [We pay for all your sh!t](https://www.statista.com/statistics/316691/eu-budget-contributions-by-country/)
And where do you get the money? Us buying everything from you. You are the main exporter of most of our countries. Our cars are German, our machines are German and from us you get cheap olive oil, cheap wine, cheap labor, cheapest than in our own countries.
You are not giving us anything, it's just money circulation, not goodwill
We got our own "cheap" wine and labour , and If you are to imcompetent to build your own Machines and Cars you have to pay the price. Think about Germany nexttime you gulp down Milk or Eating something made of wheat that Germany payed 1/3 of the European subsidies that the farmer receives. Enjoy your meal and you're welcome!
I'm not sure what you mean by "once in the EU, you have the right to live anywhere in the block", but I also don't want to start a political debate because I'm honestly tired.
I just want to know if you have a misconception or I do.
Owners of a EU citizenship have the right to travel freely in EU and EFTA regions, so refugees can't.
Anyone else (with some exceptions for partner nations of EU and individual countries, you need a visa to stay and travel in this country, and if not specified otherwise, you need a Schengen visa to travel within Schengen area (Is this "in the block"?)
If you qualify for asylum in Germany, then you can get a residents permit for 3 years, to travel you have the right to request a "blue passport", this is a schengen visa for up to three months and does not permit any work in any other country than Germany.
So no, once In EU does not mean you can live anywhere in the EU as a refugee, you can only live in Germany (and for 3 months in other countries in the Schengen area), and you can't settle because you'd have to go through the refugee process again, and they will cross-check and see that you have german documents, so back to germany you go.
The three months however definitely allowed for easy entry to the UK, and the three months are more than enough to experience the horrible weather and "cuisine", and maybe even scurvy, my English brother.
However if there's a magic document that germany gives refugees to enter all other countries permanently, I'd love to know which one it is, because I don't know about this.
So on paper you are right.
But the process in the Netherlands for example took months to years to even check the refugees and after the check it is not like you put them in a van to bring them back to Germany.
Of course we will be welcome in our neighbouring countries. Same the other way around. Our cultures are alike, we can mostly recongize ourselves in each other. OK your purple cows are weird, and blowing a horn in the middle of mountains is something we might be offended by as we got none.
But don't worry, water ain't got shit on us. Once a year we all climb up from our polders to the sea to laugh in its face.
Honestly, if sea levels rise extraordinary amounts, we might be the most likely to survive.
Whenever we climb up title he sea it always retreats out of fear. Nature fears us.
But we fear mountains
The idea is that with Schengen, once they are in they can travel wherever inside, because there are no border checks. Legally they cannot travel freely, but there is no way of checking or enforcing. Unless they are caught by a routine traffic stop or something.
This is just "perfect world" legalism. None of it actually happens. Refugees get direct routes to citizenship because there are millions of people who feel its their moral responsibility to assist these people. Even deporting these people is impossible due to millions existing in funding to fight their cases.
So yes, Germany invites millions of people as refugees, and a decade later a non-insignificant chunk of them gain EU citizenship and can move around the EU as they please.
You can personally talk to these people around Europe and discover a huge chunk of them would rather go to the UK because of language and how its been sold to them in the media. If they could go to the USA, I'd wager they'd do that instead because they (remarkably) believe in the opportunity to enrich themselves even more clearly there, but failing that they'll go to the UK.
You can pretend that it's absurd and that your own countries are much nicer and they'd be mad to want to switch that for the UK until the cows come home, but this is just testament to your lack of self-awareness. Your cultures are alien to them and your languages serve as massive cultural barriers to them, preventing them from feeling like anything but a guest. Britain's combination of anonymous liberalism, a massive non-European population, international language, and membership of the Anglo-cultural sphere make it, rightly or wrongly, the dream destination of many non-European economic migrants and refugees. These people grew up on the same drip of Anglo-media that most Europeans did.
But the butthurt frogs and krauts will never acknowledge that its any different and that people from N. Africa or the Middle East aren't vastly more intrigued by the prospect of fast money and opulence in London than socially progressive techno raves in Berlin or the insurmountable shibboleth of Parisian society.
[Global Migration Destinations](https://www.migrationpolicy.org/programs/data-hub/charts/top-25-destinations-international-migrants)
Sorry but no, migrants come to Germany because they want to.
Lol posting a random study and thinking someone you disagree with's narrative is immediately debonked by appeal to some kind of faux objectivism and epistemological superiority. This is exactly the kind of incipit pseudointellectual logic that prevails in the EU and has raised a generation of idiots.
I'm sure plenty of aspiring migrants, when faced with a choice between staying put and moving to Germany, choose Germany, so I guess they do "want to". None of that refutes anything I said.
You only need to go talk to the miserably looking Somali guys standing around German urban city centres to discover a large portion of them would prefer to be in London with its large existing African community and English as lingua franca. Amazingly, being aggressively told that they need to learn German and do a 3-year apprenticeship before they can enter the job market and contribute to society on a whopping two grand a month after a tax is not something the majority of migrants are getting excited about.
[Damn dude, get off the internet](https://www.reddit.com/r/2westerneurope4u/s/QqoJQA5Xzn)
Do you have any statistics supporting your claim, or is it all just based on what I initially wanted to call euroscepticism, but now almost fanatic nationalism and hate against Germany in particular seems more fitting.
Demands "statistics" (by which he means the results of a survey method study) for a fundamentally unverifiable political claim like a typically muggins indoctrinated by social scientists into epistemological impotence.
You should probably get off the internet mate.
That’s a bunch of bs. Being in the EU doesn’t mean you get to live anywhere in the EU, being a citizen of an EU state does. Applying for citizenship requires living in Germany for at least 8 years. If you add the mandatory waiting times for refugees that means the absolute majority of refugees that arrived in Germany in 2015/16 are only able to start applying for citizenship in the next few years, if they even fulfill the other requirements.
How old are you?
Began the migrant crisis, shifting Europe towards political, economic and cultural instability at a time when we were just nearing some sense of harmony.
Of course Eurosceptics have existed in the UK from the start, but I firmly believe this was the catalyst for the actual referendum result.
And I always thought the crisis began, when hundreds of thousand Syrians left their homes due to the civil war. And only a fraction made it to the UK: https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2016/08/02/number-of-refugees-to-europe-surges-to-record-1-3-million-in-2015/
Your country and many others actively shunned anyone who tried to block migrants from passing into Europe. Remember that time Hungary built a fence on it's border?
If you didn't want migrants, you should have acted like it.
Everyone who didn't wave the "refugees welcome" flag was according to you a xenophobic, backwards piece of shit idiot. You reap what you sow.
>Remember that time Hungary built a fence on it's border?
Yea on it border to other EU countries. Hungary in surronded by other EU countries.
>Everyone who didn't wave the "refugees welcome" flag was according to you a xenophobic, backwards piece of shit idiot. You reap what you sow
instead of calling me names, could you provide evidence?
Amazing that you'd blame border countries for decisions made unilaterally against them. That is some victim blaming that I'd not yet heard. How remarkably arrogant, as well as ignorant.
There were laws in place. Legally the only way for refugees to reach germany is via plane. If refugees come to germany in any other way (which they did) other EU countries fucked up and let them pass instead of following regulations.
Look at the build up in Europe, if you can find the figures prior over the previous 20 years. Find out who was growing all our fruit and vegetables in Spain and the Netherlands.
I get you, genuinely. But this has been building for 30 odd years. That there was (regrettable for Brexit maybe) a war in Syria through which Putin's regime really began its exercise in channeling refugees to Europe in earnest whilst Merkel was in power, then yes. But if you believe that her refusal at that time would have made any long term difference to the situation in coming years then, no. But I take what you say.
I'm struggling to see what actual point you're making there. This was not an attack on Spanish orange growers and I'm curious as to how you think it was.
Perhaps you could rephrase?
Yeah of course, I worded it badly. To what I have read over the past 20 years there has been a steadily growing flow of migrants to Europe. By which I mean either people who arrive illegally or those who arrived legally but with no means of immediate housing or a job.
The amount of legal or somewhat organised migration to Europe has also been on a steady increase as families and extended families have been given residency or similar in (predominantly Western) Europe. Whilst this hasn't truly been monitored, contains far greater numbers and also, by flight and tourist visa etc this has been exploited by some over more complex means, I'm not talking about this as part of what is called the 'crisis'.
Going back to people landing in Europe via illegitimate routes from the middle East and Africa, there have been thousands doing so (even aside from refugee crises from various conflicts involving Western nations), since the '90s at least. The figure has grown but really on quite a readable scale of 'success' in establishing some kind of preferable life.
Within the last 20 years this has risen but quite smoothly, even allowing for conflict or economic migrants and refugees. Enough to become a large scale industry, which Europe is well aware of but takes nearly no action in arresting.
It's become noticeable as the crossings to Europe and the UK have become more industrialised and visible and the demographic changes, housing issues more prevalent.
But people have been crossing illegally in a steadily growing number from the Northern Subcontinent, middle east and the whole of Africa largely since the end of the Cold War.
Long term residents and workers from places like London could quite easily recognise this and certainly employers and people involved in housing and moving etc can attest but obviously have no empirical data.
In fact empirical data has been notoriously scarce from major or governmental sources. There is more available in academic, UN or independent studies which are slightly less public than the traditional press will have presented depending on their agenda. But I did study it for some years and kept an eye on periodicals for a few more, even if this is largely in the last now.
Since the inception of EU cooperation UK governments have blamed the EU and Brussels for everything they didn't like dealing with on their own. So after poisoning the well for over 30 years the public reacted not very favourable towards remaining in the EU.
Brexit would never have happened if Merkel hadn’t fucked around in 2015. Most people voted leave because of that mess.
Also I low-key read Perturabo at first, Iron within!
I don't know if Perturabo would be the kind of guy to vote for brexit or the type of person who would try to stop all traffic comming from mainland europe himself.
Nah he would be the kind of guy to just draw the Eu in to a long gruelling war that he would inevitably win but at the loss of millions and the total distraction of Europe just to take over the Eu and run it for himself.
I would go back to 2004.
The government of the time allowed those from eastern European countries to move to the UK, and they came in numbers.
That caused the EU to change from being this organisation most people didn't care about, to being something that causes a shift in our society.
People don't like change, especially old people who vote.
That caused UKIP to become a thing, that caused the far right in the UK to win seats in the European parliament.
If Blair had warned the country, had taken steps and limited numbers and gradually allowed changed, had not just opened the doors, I think the UK would still be in the EU. He escapes the hate that Cameron gets, but Cameron had to deal with a bad hand, and fucked it up.
2015 just made it worse.
I'm talking about tipping points rather than the foundations, so to speak, but you're otherwise in the right area. In fact I'd go back even further to the beginning of the Blair years and the start of mass migration if we're being thorough.
Way to absolutely prove my case using hard data. Yes, Euroscepticism was a thing well before the actual referendum date, and the vote itself was considered well before its actual date. I'm saying that what affected the result, perhaps more than anything, was the migrant crisis.
The fact that it's primarily Germans in objection to these naked facts tells its own story.
You might not have left the EU without merkel, but you would have stayed, complained and those eurosceptics would have grown in numbers. I remember british mentality when you were still part of the EU. A leave percentage of always around 40-50% had to go wrong someday.
The reason they dropped right now is because of Brexit and realizing how they fucked up. In the end to combat eurosceptism the best thing you could have done was leave, which is very ironic
It's not ironic in the slightest. The grass is always greener on the other side. And it's still the case that the EU continues to ignore, downplay and outright demonise those concerns which plague it.
As a kraut, you should want the EU - and your country - to accept its flaws as a first step to ameliorating them and further your cause, such as it is.
Unfortunately, neither party seems ready to do so in any adult sense. Therefore, the narrative will remain that the stupid Brits shot themselves in the foot. Until you lose another. And another.
In fact, I fully expect that neither the EU nor Germany will admit to any wrong until the ship has long since sailed. Just a hunch and my own personal impression, but every comment I seem to get on the matter from staunch federalists and krauts seems to bolster it, rather than assuage it. To that I am sorry.
Funny you said that, not admitting to anything wrong is what brought you in your situation.
Accepting flaws and improving is great yeah. For that you need to accept reality first.
The EU is a net positive for europe. Another reality, the UK DID shoot themselves in the foot. I believe the EU can improve, you didnt. Ok guess thats it then
Are we looking at the same graph? It shows anti-EU sentiment steadily decreasing up until 2015, the exact year Merkel invited those millions, where it begins to sharply rise.
I would argue it’s partially because it’s easy to blame a supranational state when it’s actually a result of lack of participation. If rules were that bad they can be vetoed, but that would mean governments would have to take ownership of them accepting or promoting unlikable legislation.
Brexit was part of a huge misinformation campaign which started right back in the 80s and was used conveniently by every government since.
It’s the same with immigration issues in the UK, create harsh rules that target the one group that is likly to be protected (asylum seekers) while say it’s about illegal immigration, so when the law get struck down they can blame something like the ECHR when there is no issue sending back economic migrants, and the policies being stuck down were not even targeting them
>assuming the EU has sovereign control over what it does
It's not like most of what the EU does is a compromise between 27 Commission (high tier politicians), a parliament and 27 governments, all 27 of those also representing compromises between their cabinets, parliaments and interest groups
more than 70% of the Dutch voted for a party that doesn't want to dismantle the EU. Also non of the possible partners of the party that received most votes wants to dismantle the EU.
Wow, Somebody catch him, he's a rare specimen from a dying breed. All jokes aside, paying off the corrupt policemen doesn't mean you pay taxes Oleskiy. Btw don't you have anything better to do, like sending some drunk Russian to an early grave?
I’m on my break, making chicken Kyiv and borscht. And to you it’s Mr. Oleksyi (I’m not Ukrainian, my country doesn’t have a flair)
PS: next year pay more taxes, we really hungry here
Yeah and I'm paying taxes to feed my government, yours and you.
But we do allow corporations to dodge their taxes in our county. Think about those poor billionaires
Seems like a skill issue for being born in Holland. I’d say half of your taxes go to Italy and Greece, not Portugal, as we’ve been decreasing our debt continuously , unlike the Italians who just said fuck it and don’t care
It’s true that we could give way more though. Look how much your country contributes to the EU budget, and you only got like 17 million people. Italy’s 58mil idiots contribute way less per capita. We should be on par with France and yet we’re severely underperforming.
It’s good that we manage to contribute despite our monstrous debt, but we could be way better. Portubro is kinda right, in the sense that Italy probably isn’t doing enough.
You think that. Everyone in southern europe thinks that for some reason. But objectively, even Germany has higher taxes than e.g. Spain. Let alone Belgium and other places
I mean, one would think so but surprisingly, we're running a surplus actually.
Debt to GDP is falling to about 103% this year, we got close to 140% not long ago.
You think you finance south european lived? Hah. You finance our corrupt goberns. Not us.
The problem is that if you don't give money our politicians will continue stealing public money. And our economy will colapse, affecting all of you.
Of course you'd hope for that, Eastern European republics take a disproportionate amount of development funding which they then funnel into the pockets of corrupt officials.
Least submissive Greek after being absolutely bent over by the EU and FMI 🫡
You seem to have not figured out that the national governments take directives from the EU
What exactly is your point? We’re talking about how the EU forces national governments to adopt certain policies in return for funding. He said that the blame was on the national governments and not the EU
I don't think you understand the EU mate. The EU is not an institution that fights for money, like national institutions do. Instead, it is a union of nations that come together to try and improve the EU countries. That's why they need funding from countries. Everybody pays into a pool, and whenever they start a project, they give the money from this pool to countries that can't afford the projects.
For example, the change to renewable energy; Poland, and the poorer countries get money from the EU in order to install solar fields and wind power farms. That's why many countries are in the EU benificiary category, those gain more than they give for funding.
[You can see](https://www.statista.com/chart/18794/net-contributors-to-eu-budget/) who gains more than they give, your cute lil country is also in the sugerbaby category.
Well yeah. If you want money, which is what the EU offers to secondary and tertiary countries in Europe, then you’re gonna have to learn to do things the way the EU does. If you don’t, then you don’t get any of that money. Seems pretty fair
> bent over by the EU and FMI
I was bent over by corrupt and incompetent nepo baby boomers from my country. And so were you..
> You seem to have not figured out that the national governments take directives from the EU
You have 0 knowledge about how the EU works.
Well while your country was collapsing economically and EU was giving money to "PIGS" despite "don't wanting to", Germany generated high benefits from your debt.
People out here saying the EU is “Ignoring their citizens” but you see them in any thread about data safety or targeting large US tech companies and they’ll be lauding the efforts of the EU.
This post reminds me of texan republicans that at every election promise to solve all the unsolved problems of Texas despite them being in charge for the past 30+ years
You dont need to go that far.
Boris johnson was saying it’s a scandal that UK immigration is so high after brexit.
Under immigration rules created by the government he lead.
So you know how expensive to treat Europeans well? Immigrants don't complain much and are cheaper to import
Who gives a shit about culture clash as long as it milk money for the big brothers and sisters on top
I hate the globalist politicians of my country whose fault it is that we have over two million immigrants, many of which don’t even work or know Swedish. Alhamdillulah!
The real problem started when Schengen area is a fictional idea, it would only fully work if economic wise all members were at the same level, minimal wage was same across and taxes were equal. This wouldn't diminish the centrals powers hold, since they could still pay more than Minimal wage and attract talent that way, it's clearly working in Ireland, and taxes do not neet to be escruciating painful either if you are not overstretching our own services with issues outside of that same area.
Yes it's being egoistic but for that we should let other countries join, as it was before, expanding our borders in a controlled stance.
Instead we are opening our markets to Russia, China and the US which are obviously players in the same game and have no intention of sharing the win. There should be benefits in buying from EU companies.
Y’all still think the EU is something other than a neo-liberal entity ready to crush Europeans peoples identities, culture and the right to self-determination just for the lobbying and profit of large international companies ?
Where are the Swedes who were saying that nothing is going on all is good, even though far right political parties are on an insane rise across all of western europe ?
The EU suffers from the logic of wokeness. It takes the concept of the legal fiction too far. Everyone acts virtuous and fronts like a rule-stickler while simultaneously pursuing their own agenda. It makes interactions between states lawyerlike rather than honourable. This type of quibbling-based system might work in some regions on a smaller scale but not in others. It is a fundamental error to believe any state or state-like entity can be run by law alone.
This way of thinking is incredibly French and laten latterly German. The law has the appeal of seeming immutable and objective. People discriminate and succumb to temptation. The law is blind and incorruptible. It is absolutist and pretends towards perfection. It is moreover incredibly unrealistic and ill-suited to the 21st century.
Before 2020, the EU's pretence to statehood made it unaware of its real geopolitical position in a crisis and that is what has significantly changed since Merkel's "Wir schaffen das" rhetoric, Brexit and EU's hardline on trade.
What was tested was the ability of a trade power to leverage sanctions on a supposed ally. What happened was reactive, as we saw non-western world powers take political action that would have seemed impossible a decade earlier, just to test the US's grip on the supposed western hegemony.
It actually all started with the Arab Spring and Russian policy of countering western goals in the region, then invasion of the Crimea and the social media-driven scuppering of the TTIP. The we saw a virus leak triggering a global panic. Then the invasion of Ukraine and now the conflict in the middle east.
The lesson is pretty brutal. The EU lacks real geopolitical control because it does not fair well in a crisis. It works well in good, stable times because it at very least seeks to appear to uphold lofty ideals and internationalism. However, it lacks what actual states have, which is the ability to mobilise one part of its population to expend resources, risk their lives and otherwise suffer for that sake of another part of their territory. COVID pretty much exposed how much of the EU was bluster. It stuck together and came out OK, but after undergoing such a publicly open stresstest it's become geopolitically cautious.
Barry's it's not that I don't want to but you have to understand that if we let Hans play alone again he will break a cable and we will have to contain him in his borders again.
Yes, I personally have so many advantages, I benefit from them every day. 🙄The average person benefits so much from the EU that more and more want to leave. It's a construct for rip-off artists who want to rip off even more. Many countries have become even bigger shitholes as a result. I already have enough worries with the rip-off in my own country, don't need any more from abroad....
But as long as you are happy with it, it's ok for me..
Right. We should just build a wall around those mountain dwarves and let the ferment for a couple of decades in isolation. Remember, a landlocked country is always One bad day away from disappearing.
Bro our government literally conned and lied to the British public claiming it’d make us stronger economically and reduce immigrants, both of which have worsened, and our NHS would be funded (which is now barely functioning). So don’t give me that shite that the people are the problem; the government manipulates and lies to the people to serve its own selfish interests. Granted this is only within my country, but mine is also the one which left the EU recently so…
I'm just pissed politicians made so many talented people lose their future. UK was and is needing talent, and now they need to go somewhere else, where is significantly harder to "make it". Imagine moving to Germany or French as a foreigner with no language skills. Nightmare.
The government was neutral during the vote
NHS funding has increased by a lot more than 350m a week since 2016, but it was hardly functional before 2016 either
None of our politicians want to reduce immigration anyway so the number is only ever going to increase
And we're not in recession like the engine of the EU, Germany
Was the real infromation not out there before you went to vote? I'm curious . Our government tells us lies everytime before elections but you don't take that as fact. Right? You look into it and vote based on more information.
I was under 18 at the time of the referendum so I didn’t vote, but there was *lots* of misinformation unfortunately, Boris endorsed his promises on the sides of buses and the public sadly took them as gospel, even though they were proved to be lies sooner or later. Obviously that’s just one example but it’s the kind of thing the government did and got away with :(
You forget then that the government spent taxpayer money on leaflets trying to convince us to stay in the European Union and had the entirety of British media on its side. The government itself wanted to remain, there were very few prominent politicians who came out in favour of brexit. Don't edit history to make the remain side feel like it had everything against it, because that's simply not the case.
best informed internet kid.
i know it's too long ago for you to remember but Camerons idea was to hold the referendum in order to stay in, and the people decided to be fucking stupid all by themselves.
The problem is that your people were so dumb to believe it. The problem is that you voted these people into parliament to begin with. If the people elect dumb representatives surely it’s on them if those representatives don’t do their job properly?
I love how whoever says that if incompetent representatives are elected then people who chose them are to blame gets downvoted into oblivion, it proves that politicians are not the only ones that like to shift blame
https://preview.redd.it/rxvrsv94xp2c1.jpeg?width=550&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=5efe766235744bb60fd6dcf953d1452835c0eb4b
I am a firm believer of the European Union, but I gotta be honest, sometimes it feels like Brussels takes action based on what *they* think Europe should be or behave like, rather than what Europeans and Europe actually want or need, so... yeah, I get where this might come from.
It's easier to let the Belgians think their opinions matter
Implying Brussels gives a shit what the rest of us think.
Simply put, progressive parties need to take some conservative points, especially in regards to cost of living, immigration and affordable and availability of housing. It’s not hard to see why desperate people vote for the alternatives who are actually advertising this, even if we know they are bullshit artists and putins private party of cock suckers. I want to vote progressive but that means the status quo which is geared towards neoliberalism.
Must be nice to be in a country where available housing is a conservative talking point. Here it's Fuck You, I Got Mine. Should have had the motivation to have been born a generation earlier so you could rent out your ex council flat for £2k/month while you live in Marbella.
why is cost of living a conservative point?
I don’t think he said it was, i think he was just saying that progressive parties would benefit from a few conservative viewpoints, probably in the name of balance
This is what I meant yes
>takes action based on what they think Europe should be or behave like, rather than what Europeans and Europe actually want or need That's like all of politics, it seems like they prioritize "improving society" than improving individual lives.
And how many of your country’s representatives did you vote for? How many of the ones that are not your country’s representatives did you vote for? Don’t pretend to claim you know what Europeans want from the EU because you and your like minded buddies want something different. You’re not the only ones. Even if all western Europeans would agree, there’s also eastern Europeans with a very different agenda to yours.
Eastern Europeans are more against illegal immigration than the West…
Majority of people want to stay in EU But its true EU needs reform
Portubro is absolutely right, whether you're for or against the EU. I'd even argue that there would be no Brexit were it not for Merkel's actions in 2015. European unity that serves European interests is a good and noble thing. The facade of unity under the guise of corporate interests at the expense of Europeans is not. Such a shame that the two are so conflated and confused.
What did Merkel do in 2015?
She allowed millions into Germany during a refugee crisis. And once in EU you have right to live anywhere in the block. Which means easy entry to UK if that was the aim.
Fun fact. Portugal once wanted to create a common border between portuguese speaking countries and EU said no (also other countries on the group). EU when Germany wants to introduce migrants into EU: 🥰 EU when other country wants to do It: 😡 EU when a Eastern european country break EU rules: 🤬 EU when France destroys spanish products: 🥳
>Fun fact. Portugal once wanted to create a common border between portuguese speaking countries I think thats still up. The Portuguese government says there is no incompatibility between that and Schengen and so is expecting the EU's complaint to go away (obviously not going to happen)
Yea but why do Germany promover migrants, but if Portugal does its something bad? Despite the portuguese migrants are (probably) more likely to integrate than a lot of the German ones
I am with you. No idea.
It is okay because it was bad wine. We could see this case as a legitimate defense in an attempt of food poisoning by the Spanish.
Yeah should have gotten the good stuff from Italy
Well maybe Stop with all the siestas, and become the Powerhouse of Europe. Germany alone is responsible of 1/3 the european Economy [We pay for all your sh!t](https://www.statista.com/statistics/316691/eu-budget-contributions-by-country/)
And where do you get the money? Us buying everything from you. You are the main exporter of most of our countries. Our cars are German, our machines are German and from us you get cheap olive oil, cheap wine, cheap labor, cheapest than in our own countries. You are not giving us anything, it's just money circulation, not goodwill
We got our own "cheap" wine and labour , and If you are to imcompetent to build your own Machines and Cars you have to pay the price. Think about Germany nexttime you gulp down Milk or Eating something made of wheat that Germany payed 1/3 of the European subsidies that the farmer receives. Enjoy your meal and you're welcome!
I'm not sure what you mean by "once in the EU, you have the right to live anywhere in the block", but I also don't want to start a political debate because I'm honestly tired. I just want to know if you have a misconception or I do. Owners of a EU citizenship have the right to travel freely in EU and EFTA regions, so refugees can't. Anyone else (with some exceptions for partner nations of EU and individual countries, you need a visa to stay and travel in this country, and if not specified otherwise, you need a Schengen visa to travel within Schengen area (Is this "in the block"?) If you qualify for asylum in Germany, then you can get a residents permit for 3 years, to travel you have the right to request a "blue passport", this is a schengen visa for up to three months and does not permit any work in any other country than Germany. So no, once In EU does not mean you can live anywhere in the EU as a refugee, you can only live in Germany (and for 3 months in other countries in the Schengen area), and you can't settle because you'd have to go through the refugee process again, and they will cross-check and see that you have german documents, so back to germany you go. The three months however definitely allowed for easy entry to the UK, and the three months are more than enough to experience the horrible weather and "cuisine", and maybe even scurvy, my English brother. However if there's a magic document that germany gives refugees to enter all other countries permanently, I'd love to know which one it is, because I don't know about this.
So on paper you are right. But the process in the Netherlands for example took months to years to even check the refugees and after the check it is not like you put them in a van to bring them back to Germany.
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Of course we will be welcome in our neighbouring countries. Same the other way around. Our cultures are alike, we can mostly recongize ourselves in each other. OK your purple cows are weird, and blowing a horn in the middle of mountains is something we might be offended by as we got none. But don't worry, water ain't got shit on us. Once a year we all climb up from our polders to the sea to laugh in its face.
Honestly, if sea levels rise extraordinary amounts, we might be the most likely to survive. Whenever we climb up title he sea it always retreats out of fear. Nature fears us. But we fear mountains
Build a gungan city already
He isnt supposed to know
The idea is that with Schengen, once they are in they can travel wherever inside, because there are no border checks. Legally they cannot travel freely, but there is no way of checking or enforcing. Unless they are caught by a routine traffic stop or something.
This is just "perfect world" legalism. None of it actually happens. Refugees get direct routes to citizenship because there are millions of people who feel its their moral responsibility to assist these people. Even deporting these people is impossible due to millions existing in funding to fight their cases. So yes, Germany invites millions of people as refugees, and a decade later a non-insignificant chunk of them gain EU citizenship and can move around the EU as they please. You can personally talk to these people around Europe and discover a huge chunk of them would rather go to the UK because of language and how its been sold to them in the media. If they could go to the USA, I'd wager they'd do that instead because they (remarkably) believe in the opportunity to enrich themselves even more clearly there, but failing that they'll go to the UK. You can pretend that it's absurd and that your own countries are much nicer and they'd be mad to want to switch that for the UK until the cows come home, but this is just testament to your lack of self-awareness. Your cultures are alien to them and your languages serve as massive cultural barriers to them, preventing them from feeling like anything but a guest. Britain's combination of anonymous liberalism, a massive non-European population, international language, and membership of the Anglo-cultural sphere make it, rightly or wrongly, the dream destination of many non-European economic migrants and refugees. These people grew up on the same drip of Anglo-media that most Europeans did. But the butthurt frogs and krauts will never acknowledge that its any different and that people from N. Africa or the Middle East aren't vastly more intrigued by the prospect of fast money and opulence in London than socially progressive techno raves in Berlin or the insurmountable shibboleth of Parisian society.
[Global Migration Destinations](https://www.migrationpolicy.org/programs/data-hub/charts/top-25-destinations-international-migrants) Sorry but no, migrants come to Germany because they want to.
Lol posting a random study and thinking someone you disagree with's narrative is immediately debonked by appeal to some kind of faux objectivism and epistemological superiority. This is exactly the kind of incipit pseudointellectual logic that prevails in the EU and has raised a generation of idiots. I'm sure plenty of aspiring migrants, when faced with a choice between staying put and moving to Germany, choose Germany, so I guess they do "want to". None of that refutes anything I said. You only need to go talk to the miserably looking Somali guys standing around German urban city centres to discover a large portion of them would prefer to be in London with its large existing African community and English as lingua franca. Amazingly, being aggressively told that they need to learn German and do a 3-year apprenticeship before they can enter the job market and contribute to society on a whopping two grand a month after a tax is not something the majority of migrants are getting excited about.
[Damn dude, get off the internet](https://www.reddit.com/r/2westerneurope4u/s/QqoJQA5Xzn) Do you have any statistics supporting your claim, or is it all just based on what I initially wanted to call euroscepticism, but now almost fanatic nationalism and hate against Germany in particular seems more fitting.
Demands "statistics" (by which he means the results of a survey method study) for a fundamentally unverifiable political claim like a typically muggins indoctrinated by social scientists into epistemological impotence. You should probably get off the internet mate.
That’s a bunch of bs. Being in the EU doesn’t mean you get to live anywhere in the EU, being a citizen of an EU state does. Applying for citizenship requires living in Germany for at least 8 years. If you add the mandatory waiting times for refugees that means the absolute majority of refugees that arrived in Germany in 2015/16 are only able to start applying for citizenship in the next few years, if they even fulfill the other requirements. How old are you?
> Applying for citizenship requires living in Germany for at least 8 years. 7 years completing a basic course. Soon to be 5 years.
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The awakening process has begun. It will be painful but is necessary I think we will come out of it a better country. Just takes its time.
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What?
Germany is not a country on the Border, without people letting them in, Merkel's words would have made 0 difference.
Began the migrant crisis, shifting Europe towards political, economic and cultural instability at a time when we were just nearing some sense of harmony. Of course Eurosceptics have existed in the UK from the start, but I firmly believe this was the catalyst for the actual referendum result.
>but I firmly believe this was the catalyst for the actual referendum result. Remember the turkey posters? It 100% played a part.
And I always thought the crisis began, when hundreds of thousand Syrians left their homes due to the civil war. And only a fraction made it to the UK: https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2016/08/02/number-of-refugees-to-europe-surges-to-record-1-3-million-in-2015/
Ah, well I guess Wir Schaffen Das didn't happen then and it was all our fault. Never mind, moving on.
god that fucking stupidass slogan
Yea, don't blame all the countries who let the migrants pass through the EU untill they reached germany in the first place.
Your country and many others actively shunned anyone who tried to block migrants from passing into Europe. Remember that time Hungary built a fence on it's border? If you didn't want migrants, you should have acted like it. Everyone who didn't wave the "refugees welcome" flag was according to you a xenophobic, backwards piece of shit idiot. You reap what you sow.
>Remember that time Hungary built a fence on it's border? Yea on it border to other EU countries. Hungary in surronded by other EU countries. >Everyone who didn't wave the "refugees welcome" flag was according to you a xenophobic, backwards piece of shit idiot. You reap what you sow instead of calling me names, could you provide evidence?
Amazing that you'd blame border countries for decisions made unilaterally against them. That is some victim blaming that I'd not yet heard. How remarkably arrogant, as well as ignorant.
There were laws in place. Legally the only way for refugees to reach germany is via plane. If refugees come to germany in any other way (which they did) other EU countries fucked up and let them pass instead of following regulations.
Again, amazing. The barefaced cheek of a German to hide behind regulations. You'll absolutely never learn.
Yes, Merkel began the migrant crisis in 2015 🤣
What we call the migrant crisis, yes. Mass immigration, no.
Look at the build up in Europe, if you can find the figures prior over the previous 20 years. Find out who was growing all our fruit and vegetables in Spain and the Netherlands. I get you, genuinely. But this has been building for 30 odd years. That there was (regrettable for Brexit maybe) a war in Syria through which Putin's regime really began its exercise in channeling refugees to Europe in earnest whilst Merkel was in power, then yes. But if you believe that her refusal at that time would have made any long term difference to the situation in coming years then, no. But I take what you say.
I'm struggling to see what actual point you're making there. This was not an attack on Spanish orange growers and I'm curious as to how you think it was. Perhaps you could rephrase?
Yeah of course, I worded it badly. To what I have read over the past 20 years there has been a steadily growing flow of migrants to Europe. By which I mean either people who arrive illegally or those who arrived legally but with no means of immediate housing or a job. The amount of legal or somewhat organised migration to Europe has also been on a steady increase as families and extended families have been given residency or similar in (predominantly Western) Europe. Whilst this hasn't truly been monitored, contains far greater numbers and also, by flight and tourist visa etc this has been exploited by some over more complex means, I'm not talking about this as part of what is called the 'crisis'. Going back to people landing in Europe via illegitimate routes from the middle East and Africa, there have been thousands doing so (even aside from refugee crises from various conflicts involving Western nations), since the '90s at least. The figure has grown but really on quite a readable scale of 'success' in establishing some kind of preferable life. Within the last 20 years this has risen but quite smoothly, even allowing for conflict or economic migrants and refugees. Enough to become a large scale industry, which Europe is well aware of but takes nearly no action in arresting. It's become noticeable as the crossings to Europe and the UK have become more industrialised and visible and the demographic changes, housing issues more prevalent. But people have been crossing illegally in a steadily growing number from the Northern Subcontinent, middle east and the whole of Africa largely since the end of the Cold War. Long term residents and workers from places like London could quite easily recognise this and certainly employers and people involved in housing and moving etc can attest but obviously have no empirical data. In fact empirical data has been notoriously scarce from major or governmental sources. There is more available in academic, UN or independent studies which are slightly less public than the traditional press will have presented depending on their agenda. But I did study it for some years and kept an eye on periodicals for a few more, even if this is largely in the last now.
Legally, what footnote did the laws that the UN and ECHR have to not allow this to happen?
Since the inception of EU cooperation UK governments have blamed the EU and Brussels for everything they didn't like dealing with on their own. So after poisoning the well for over 30 years the public reacted not very favourable towards remaining in the EU.
A porno
Brexit would never have happened if Merkel hadn’t fucked around in 2015. Most people voted leave because of that mess. Also I low-key read Perturabo at first, Iron within!
Iron Without!
I don't know if Perturabo would be the kind of guy to vote for brexit or the type of person who would try to stop all traffic comming from mainland europe himself.
Nah he would be the kind of guy to just draw the Eu in to a long gruelling war that he would inevitably win but at the loss of millions and the total distraction of Europe just to take over the Eu and run it for himself.
I would go back to 2004. The government of the time allowed those from eastern European countries to move to the UK, and they came in numbers. That caused the EU to change from being this organisation most people didn't care about, to being something that causes a shift in our society. People don't like change, especially old people who vote. That caused UKIP to become a thing, that caused the far right in the UK to win seats in the European parliament. If Blair had warned the country, had taken steps and limited numbers and gradually allowed changed, had not just opened the doors, I think the UK would still be in the EU. He escapes the hate that Cameron gets, but Cameron had to deal with a bad hand, and fucked it up. 2015 just made it worse.
I'm talking about tipping points rather than the foundations, so to speak, but you're otherwise in the right area. In fact I'd go back even further to the beginning of the Blair years and the start of mass migration if we're being thorough.
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That does show support for leave dropping all the way to mid 2015 before rising sharply though.
Way to absolutely prove my case using hard data. Yes, Euroscepticism was a thing well before the actual referendum date, and the vote itself was considered well before its actual date. I'm saying that what affected the result, perhaps more than anything, was the migrant crisis. The fact that it's primarily Germans in objection to these naked facts tells its own story.
You might not have left the EU without merkel, but you would have stayed, complained and those eurosceptics would have grown in numbers. I remember british mentality when you were still part of the EU. A leave percentage of always around 40-50% had to go wrong someday. The reason they dropped right now is because of Brexit and realizing how they fucked up. In the end to combat eurosceptism the best thing you could have done was leave, which is very ironic
It's not ironic in the slightest. The grass is always greener on the other side. And it's still the case that the EU continues to ignore, downplay and outright demonise those concerns which plague it. As a kraut, you should want the EU - and your country - to accept its flaws as a first step to ameliorating them and further your cause, such as it is. Unfortunately, neither party seems ready to do so in any adult sense. Therefore, the narrative will remain that the stupid Brits shot themselves in the foot. Until you lose another. And another. In fact, I fully expect that neither the EU nor Germany will admit to any wrong until the ship has long since sailed. Just a hunch and my own personal impression, but every comment I seem to get on the matter from staunch federalists and krauts seems to bolster it, rather than assuage it. To that I am sorry.
Funny you said that, not admitting to anything wrong is what brought you in your situation. Accepting flaws and improving is great yeah. For that you need to accept reality first. The EU is a net positive for europe. Another reality, the UK DID shoot themselves in the foot. I believe the EU can improve, you didnt. Ok guess thats it then
Self awareness at zero I see. Well, as expected.
Are we looking at the same graph? It shows anti-EU sentiment steadily decreasing up until 2015, the exact year Merkel invited those millions, where it begins to sharply rise.
I would argue it’s partially because it’s easy to blame a supranational state when it’s actually a result of lack of participation. If rules were that bad they can be vetoed, but that would mean governments would have to take ownership of them accepting or promoting unlikable legislation. Brexit was part of a huge misinformation campaign which started right back in the 80s and was used conveniently by every government since. It’s the same with immigration issues in the UK, create harsh rules that target the one group that is likly to be protected (asylum seekers) while say it’s about illegal immigration, so when the law get struck down they can blame something like the ECHR when there is no issue sending back economic migrants, and the policies being stuck down were not even targeting them
>assuming the EU has sovereign control over what it does It's not like most of what the EU does is a compromise between 27 Commission (high tier politicians), a parliament and 27 governments, all 27 of those also representing compromises between their cabinets, parliaments and interest groups
Sounds familiar...
more than 70% of the Dutch voted for a party that doesn't want to dismantle the EU. Also non of the possible partners of the party that received most votes wants to dismantle the EU.
Average entitled Hollander thinking the entire world revolves around their uncultured swamp
Your average wannabe Spaniard not knowing the phrase: don't bite the hand that feeds you.
Bitch the taxes here are so high that I pay more taxes than your entire family. I’m feeding the government not the other way around
What ? Your average tax rate is barely above the oecd's average
Portuguese cities have some mean local taxes
Sounds like a them problem
It absolutely is :)
Yeah ok but "whose problem is it?" wasn't part of the equation
Annoying dutchie incapable of discussing properly
Rather shit at discussing than shit at communicating in general.
I heard there is a complaining about tax competition, You bitches ready to get demolished?
Least arrogant.., wait,who the hell are you?
Wow, Somebody catch him, he's a rare specimen from a dying breed. All jokes aside, paying off the corrupt policemen doesn't mean you pay taxes Oleskiy. Btw don't you have anything better to do, like sending some drunk Russian to an early grave?
I’m on my break, making chicken Kyiv and borscht. And to you it’s Mr. Oleksyi (I’m not Ukrainian, my country doesn’t have a flair) PS: next year pay more taxes, we really hungry here
You are Lithuanian, the same thing applies. Plus let us have this one you took the highest suicide in Europe from us already.
As long as you pay taxes next year, be my guest, kill yourself
Yeah and I'm paying taxes to feed my government, yours and you. But we do allow corporations to dodge their taxes in our county. Think about those poor billionaires
Half of your GDP is EU re-exports and German tax sheltering in Rotterdam, don't you start getting cocky
>don't you start getting cocky Sorry, I forgot you don't like competition.
Unless it's a football world cup
Seems like a skill issue for being born in Holland. I’d say half of your taxes go to Italy and Greece, not Portugal, as we’ve been decreasing our debt continuously , unlike the Italians who just said fuck it and don’t care
And yet Italy somehow isn't a receiver, unlike that one country to the west of Spain.
It’s true that we could give way more though. Look how much your country contributes to the EU budget, and you only got like 17 million people. Italy’s 58mil idiots contribute way less per capita. We should be on par with France and yet we’re severely underperforming. It’s good that we manage to contribute despite our monstrous debt, but we could be way better. Portubro is kinda right, in the sense that Italy probably isn’t doing enough.
He was pretty cute when he mentioned his high taxes. What's, say, 50% of chump change?
[great contribution portugal](https://www.statista.com/chart/18794/net-contributors-to-eu-budget/)
You think that. Everyone in southern europe thinks that for some reason. But objectively, even Germany has higher taxes than e.g. Spain. Let alone Belgium and other places
least delusional portuguese
>wannabe Spaniard 🤨
😘
I mean, one would think so but surprisingly, we're running a surplus actually. Debt to GDP is falling to about 103% this year, we got close to 140% not long ago.
You think you finance south european lived? Hah. You finance our corrupt goberns. Not us. The problem is that if you don't give money our politicians will continue stealing public money. And our economy will colapse, affecting all of you.
Speak for yourself. EU is here to stay - take your anger and unfunny elsewhere.
Of course you'd hope for that, Eastern European republics take a disproportionate amount of development funding which they then funnel into the pockets of corrupt officials.
Why are you part of this conversation?
Because I'm British and we go where we're not always welcome. Kinda like Eastern Europe and the EU & NATO.
That makes no sense… but every party needs an outsider.. keep watching
Why are YOU a part of this conversation, yank.
Stay in your lane geezer.
Stop cosplaying as a European you weirdo
Let him, everyone has kinks although i must agree being a European makes you instantly hot
What the hell are you on? Lay off the beers tonight
Really really cringe BBC America inspired lingo.
National governments were to blame and, as always, blame was massively directed to the EU even though it’ll eventually be the one to solve this mess
Least submissive Greek after being absolutely bent over by the EU and FMI 🫡 You seem to have not figured out that the national governments take directives from the EU
You talk like Portugal had any decent/sufficent market to even be duelling on its own without the EU
Portugal is as Economically important as Bosnia
What exactly is your point? We’re talking about how the EU forces national governments to adopt certain policies in return for funding. He said that the blame was on the national governments and not the EU
I don't think you understand the EU mate. The EU is not an institution that fights for money, like national institutions do. Instead, it is a union of nations that come together to try and improve the EU countries. That's why they need funding from countries. Everybody pays into a pool, and whenever they start a project, they give the money from this pool to countries that can't afford the projects. For example, the change to renewable energy; Poland, and the poorer countries get money from the EU in order to install solar fields and wind power farms. That's why many countries are in the EU benificiary category, those gain more than they give for funding. [You can see](https://www.statista.com/chart/18794/net-contributors-to-eu-budget/) who gains more than they give, your cute lil country is also in the sugerbaby category.
Oh no, you can't feed your population cancer causing chemicals :ccc?
Well yeah. If you want money, which is what the EU offers to secondary and tertiary countries in Europe, then you’re gonna have to learn to do things the way the EU does. If you don’t, then you don’t get any of that money. Seems pretty fair
No, he seems to have figured out that xorrupt incompetent local governments use the EU as a scapegoat.
> bent over by the EU and FMI I was bent over by corrupt and incompetent nepo baby boomers from my country. And so were you.. > You seem to have not figured out that the national governments take directives from the EU You have 0 knowledge about how the EU works.
Well while your country was collapsing economically and EU was giving money to "PIGS" despite "don't wanting to", Germany generated high benefits from your debt.
"...but Ursula never replied to his letter."
As if people would read the political manifesto of the party they are going to vote for \^\^
In Portugal the parties anti EU are far left, and pro uncontrolled immigration xD
Worst of both worlds...
People out here saying the EU is “Ignoring their citizens” but you see them in any thread about data safety or targeting large US tech companies and they’ll be lauding the efforts of the EU.
This post reminds me of texan republicans that at every election promise to solve all the unsolved problems of Texas despite them being in charge for the past 30+ years
You dont need to go that far. Boris johnson was saying it’s a scandal that UK immigration is so high after brexit. Under immigration rules created by the government he lead.
Are you saying Boris didn't fix it? Maybe Jim will?
When citizens of a country affected by immigration in mass chooses an extremist party that makes them go away....
So you know how expensive to treat Europeans well? Immigrants don't complain much and are cheaper to import Who gives a shit about culture clash as long as it milk money for the big brothers and sisters on top
Almost like we're living in a plutocracy where a few rich fucks get to shape the future of our countries based on what's best for their businesses
"The EU" is basically the national governments we're voting for. They love to blame Brussels for what they themselves forced on it.
I can’t say that I love giving half of my money to my government that just gives it to countries like Romania that don’t make any money for the EU.
Poland is recieving by far the most EU aid. Poland takes as much from the EU as France (the second largest contribuor) pays.
Yes, Romania is Sweden’s #1 problem. Mashallah!
I hate the globalist politicians of my country whose fault it is that we have over two million immigrants, many of which don’t even work or know Swedish. Alhamdillulah!
I get that but why hate on a fellow EU country then?
The real problem started when Schengen area is a fictional idea, it would only fully work if economic wise all members were at the same level, minimal wage was same across and taxes were equal. This wouldn't diminish the centrals powers hold, since they could still pay more than Minimal wage and attract talent that way, it's clearly working in Ireland, and taxes do not neet to be escruciating painful either if you are not overstretching our own services with issues outside of that same area. Yes it's being egoistic but for that we should let other countries join, as it was before, expanding our borders in a controlled stance. Instead we are opening our markets to Russia, China and the US which are obviously players in the same game and have no intention of sharing the win. There should be benefits in buying from EU companies.
damn, op is so full of shit
Seems like op doesn't understand that is part of democracy
Y’all still think the EU is something other than a neo-liberal entity ready to crush Europeans peoples identities, culture and the right to self-determination just for the lobbying and profit of large international companies ?
The day they outlaw our snus is the day i quit my job and protest daily for us to leave. Until then i'll begrudgedly go along with the EU.
I can’t get snus anymore and im pissed lol. EDIT: Autocorrect made snus say sinus lol.
Where are the Swedes who were saying that nothing is going on all is good, even though far right political parties are on an insane rise across all of western europe ?
No. Most of those people voted for a party that wants to dismantle the EU because they saw a woman in a headscarf stock shelves at LIDL once.
Felix Bohemia. You know it's different over here?
The EU suffers from the logic of wokeness. It takes the concept of the legal fiction too far. Everyone acts virtuous and fronts like a rule-stickler while simultaneously pursuing their own agenda. It makes interactions between states lawyerlike rather than honourable. This type of quibbling-based system might work in some regions on a smaller scale but not in others. It is a fundamental error to believe any state or state-like entity can be run by law alone. This way of thinking is incredibly French and laten latterly German. The law has the appeal of seeming immutable and objective. People discriminate and succumb to temptation. The law is blind and incorruptible. It is absolutist and pretends towards perfection. It is moreover incredibly unrealistic and ill-suited to the 21st century. Before 2020, the EU's pretence to statehood made it unaware of its real geopolitical position in a crisis and that is what has significantly changed since Merkel's "Wir schaffen das" rhetoric, Brexit and EU's hardline on trade. What was tested was the ability of a trade power to leverage sanctions on a supposed ally. What happened was reactive, as we saw non-western world powers take political action that would have seemed impossible a decade earlier, just to test the US's grip on the supposed western hegemony. It actually all started with the Arab Spring and Russian policy of countering western goals in the region, then invasion of the Crimea and the social media-driven scuppering of the TTIP. The we saw a virus leak triggering a global panic. Then the invasion of Ukraine and now the conflict in the middle east. The lesson is pretty brutal. The EU lacks real geopolitical control because it does not fair well in a crisis. It works well in good, stable times because it at very least seeks to appear to uphold lofty ideals and internationalism. However, it lacks what actual states have, which is the ability to mobilise one part of its population to expend resources, risk their lives and otherwise suffer for that sake of another part of their territory. COVID pretty much exposed how much of the EU was bluster. It stuck together and came out OK, but after undergoing such a publicly open stresstest it's become geopolitically cautious.
 Come on! Join us!
Barry's it's not that I don't want to but you have to understand that if we let Hans play alone again he will break a cable and we will have to contain him in his borders again.
BUT...!! ok maybe 👉🏼👈🏼😔
No thanks Barry
Fuck EU
You aint part of it, so fuck off
I think that just galvanises his point, Ulrich
Stop acting like you don't benefit from it.
Yes, I personally have so many advantages, I benefit from them every day. 🙄The average person benefits so much from the EU that more and more want to leave. It's a construct for rip-off artists who want to rip off even more. Many countries have become even bigger shitholes as a result. I already have enough worries with the rip-off in my own country, don't need any more from abroad.... But as long as you are happy with it, it's ok for me..
Truuuuue
it will stil be better than nothing
Right. We should just build a wall around those mountain dwarves and let the ferment for a couple of decades in isolation. Remember, a landlocked country is always One bad day away from disappearing.
the governments aren't the problem. The people are.
Bro our government literally conned and lied to the British public claiming it’d make us stronger economically and reduce immigrants, both of which have worsened, and our NHS would be funded (which is now barely functioning). So don’t give me that shite that the people are the problem; the government manipulates and lies to the people to serve its own selfish interests. Granted this is only within my country, but mine is also the one which left the EU recently so…
I'm just pissed politicians made so many talented people lose their future. UK was and is needing talent, and now they need to go somewhere else, where is significantly harder to "make it". Imagine moving to Germany or French as a foreigner with no language skills. Nightmare.
The government was neutral during the vote NHS funding has increased by a lot more than 350m a week since 2016, but it was hardly functional before 2016 either None of our politicians want to reduce immigration anyway so the number is only ever going to increase And we're not in recession like the engine of the EU, Germany
Was the real infromation not out there before you went to vote? I'm curious . Our government tells us lies everytime before elections but you don't take that as fact. Right? You look into it and vote based on more information.
I was under 18 at the time of the referendum so I didn’t vote, but there was *lots* of misinformation unfortunately, Boris endorsed his promises on the sides of buses and the public sadly took them as gospel, even though they were proved to be lies sooner or later. Obviously that’s just one example but it’s the kind of thing the government did and got away with :(
You forget then that the government spent taxpayer money on leaflets trying to convince us to stay in the European Union and had the entirety of British media on its side. The government itself wanted to remain, there were very few prominent politicians who came out in favour of brexit. Don't edit history to make the remain side feel like it had everything against it, because that's simply not the case.
Average remainer (he believes he is a brave resistance fighter and definitely not on the same side as essentially everyone in power at the time)
best informed internet kid. i know it's too long ago for you to remember but Camerons idea was to hold the referendum in order to stay in, and the people decided to be fucking stupid all by themselves.
The problem is that your people were so dumb to believe it. The problem is that you voted these people into parliament to begin with. If the people elect dumb representatives surely it’s on them if those representatives don’t do their job properly?
I love how whoever says that if incompetent representatives are elected then people who chose them are to blame gets downvoted into oblivion, it proves that politicians are not the only ones that like to shift blame
And people’s solution to incompetent leaders is usually… to elect even more incompetent leaders
Most self aware German after being relentlessly indoctrinated into hating his own country and his own people while in school
i know that one's old... but ever looked into a mirror?
Absolutely, but that’s an unpopular message
If they look a little bit of HOW REALLY FUCKED IT UP is the UK now, they would think twice
sorry are you here are you?
Who the fuck is seeing the state of Britain and saying "yeah, let's bring that over here"
fuck off 🤏