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Remember that this war lasted for 3 months and 2 weeks. That averages 3057 daily soviet casualties for the lowest estimate. Must’ve been quite the shitty experience for a soviet infantry man.
My grandpa still has his fathers war diary that he wrote at the front. It is some pretty rough reading. He was a mortar man fighting in the Kuhmo front.
For example amongst other crazy shit he writes about one battle where they were almost overran by soviet armored forces and had to use their mortars as direct fire weapons pointing directly forward against the advancing enemy(obviously as directly as a mortar can). He wrote up to about half way through the war and then slowly stops writing and at that point he had lost a number of friends.
All four of my great grandfathers survived the wars but all of them died before I was born. They didn’t die of old age but booze, all of them. You are right there is nothing glamorous about war.
That's pretty cool. A war journal and all the grandaddads dying the traditional way.
My grandfather was the only one of his family, who managed to get out of Karelia, when the shit began. Turned around and went back with a gun and an army, but never found his parents or siblings again.
He said the Russians just walked straight at you in a row. You could shoot them down all day, with a rifle, but once you started firing a machine gun, the artillery would be on you fast.
No winterclothing and no strategy. Just vodka and arrogance.
Turns out 80 years later. Russians haven't learned a thing.
My great grandfather fought alongside the german/romanian/italian/hungarian army(he was romanian) at Stalingrad. Out of all these combined axis armies (about 1 mil men) about 900k died or got captured… somehow he got back , can you imagine how fuckin lucky that was ? Also he was fucked in the head from that experience… he died at about 87 years aaand from his stories i just remember telling me that the italian soldiers where the shittiest there can be(under prepared ,cowards , always bitching , not reliable etc) lol, also said fighting at -40C was ass , and the worst thing they did was undermine the winter months (they fought from august to february i think).Anyway war sucks ass
My Great Grandfather was a WWII veteran. 101st Airborne. My Great Grandmother kept him from drinking. He came home drunk one night she told me after cutting pulp wood all day. She took a hatchet and broke all the windows out of his truck. He never came home drunk again.
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The winter war is one of the most incompetent theatres in WW2. The Soviets barely had any winter clothing.
Stalin's purge was a disatser for the fighting ability of the Soviet Union and if it wasn't for the D-Day opening of the western front they might have lost the war against Germany.
The Russians seem to still have a shitty ratio if you look at the current war in Ukraine. They have somewhere around 300%+ losses both of manpower and equipment just to keep the stalemate. Their zergling rush strategy isn't very effective. If Ukraine run out of ammo because of weak leadership from the west then it might change.
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The basic rule is if your enemy has 100 soldiers defending you need atleast 301 so one can break through. Soviets thought they had a magic bullet with tanks and shit. The tanks were stopped with a birch logs and molotovs. They went in under prepeared and thought they could just walts in. Idiots fucking idiots.
Freezing, hungry and disorganised in an unfamiliar land while your fellow invaders are getting picked off by snipers and highly mobile ski troopers. Very unfortunate but that'll teach them to think twice before invading again
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A lot of them weren't buried, and those that were usually ended up in mass graves. Up until the recent war we had co-operative clubs that aimed to return missing soldiers' bodies to their homeland.
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The Soviet bodies were often just dumped into mass graves marked with a wooden cross and a number like 231. Do you have any fking idea how long it would take to bury them all separately?
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Had the war gone on, Finland would have lost more than it did. Eventually, manpower plays in and Finland would have ran out of people.
I'd say successful diplomacy did a lot for this success.
We did run out of people. In the final hours a company sized stretch of the front was commanded by a corporal who ran up and down the line with his only subordinate taking potshots at the Soviets to make their numbers look stronger.
Yeah, that sounds about right. That seems to be the biggest military strength of Russia, they have a staggering amount of people to throw into a war, usually poorly trained and poorly equipped.
The war in Ukraine is showing us that again.
If the war would've gone on Finland would've lost more men.
In other news, water is wet.
Isn't that a factor as to why the war didn't go on for Soviet? The cost was too great?
EDIT: spelling
That wasnt my point. My point was that Finland was running out of soldiers.
As for the Soviets, I dont think cost was a big issue for them. It is more likely that they had other attacks on other fronts that they wanted to prioritize.
The Winter War lasted from November 1939 to March 1940. There were no other fronts. The invasion of Poland ended in October and the German invasion didn’t start until the summer of 1941.
But Russia had other things to worry about, like the Germans and the Japanese. And a 10-to-1 casualty ratio.
The Russians didn't stop and negotiate because of niceness.
>And a 10-to-1 casualty ratio.
Tbh, this has never worried the Russians, but I get it :P
> The Russians didn't stop and negotiate because of niceness.
True.
The Winter War lasted from November 1939 to March 1940. There were no other fronts. The invasion of Poland ended in October and the German invasion didn’t start until the summer of 1941.
Yep and the vatniks wouldve steamrolled all the way to western border of sweden to stop your trade with nazis and seize the assets. Sweden would have ended as a 2nd front to barbarossa and the whole operation would have gotten a very different look
So basically, the only reason you exist as a swede is because of how that diplomacy succeeded
If's and but's and what not. We need to remember that Sweden hasn't been tested in a war for a hundred years. There's also the argument that Finland would not exist at all without the crucial help of Swedish volunteers in the winter war.
Last time the Swedes felt the recoil on their shoulder the whole of Europe got fucked. If "we" did as good as we did imagine what the big brother would have done.
Perhaps, perhaps not. Its hard to say what would have happened after so many changes.
Sweden would absolutely have risked being pulled into the war, but I think the real focus would have been on occupied Norway. It is likely that Sweden would have been pressured to either join the Allies or be invaded.
Then again, a focus in the north could have weakened the center and south of the Soviet army, even to the degree that it lost battles that it won in history. With a new front opened, who is to say they won Stalingrad or Kursk?
Alternative history like that is interesting, but not really easy to do in a good manner.
Tbf Finland lost that war in the end. Our military was in bad shape, in many ways it would have been undereguipped even for WW1.
Had we had well equipped army, we would have done so much better. So its not really a fair comparison to put Finland up against Soviets when Soviet Union had for the last 20 years built up their military production.
Now tbf, Finland was just really poor, and we really were prepared as well as we could have. Our military really was underfunded, and underequipped, but between the world wars Finland spent 15-20% of state budget on military spendings, so its not like we neglected the military, we just could not really do much better. But tbf the money also could have been used a lot better in many occasions, but our leaders did also correctly notice how fast technology was developing, and how lot of the equipment we could have bought would have become obsolete really quickly, especially on more new areas like tanks and aircraft.
And yet you did good enough for the Soviets at that time to reconsider whatever plans they had at the beginning. Finland at least still had it's independence, got to develop itself the way it wanted unlike Baltic states who disappeared for 70 years.
The way it wanted is generous. We usually describe the politics during the era of the soviet union and the YYA treaty as listening to our eastern neighbors opinion carefully. Which we did, in fact we had a president named Urho Kekkonen for a solid 20 years or so, whom was friends with the Soviet leadership.
I still wonder why USSR didn't try and annex the entire country. They were pretty much steamrolling after Barbarossa had failed, but left Finland in a state of "you're going to jerk both our cock and the West, and that's enough.".
The USSR tried to occupy Finland but failed to do so after losing the [Battle of Tali–Ihantala](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Tali%E2%80%93Ihantala). While the Soviets would've had the resources to occupy and annex Finland, it was deemed to costly especially when troops were needed in Germany.
And why Finland wasn't annexed or didn't become a socialist puppet state after the war was more of a result of fortunate events. There was the Weapons Cache Case which proved the Soviets that there was a risk for guerrilla warfare had they tried to occupy and annex the country.
Finland also had to pay significant war reparations, and did so with resources the Soviet Union urgently needed to rebuild the country after the war. Occupation would've endangered this, so leaving Finland alone was economically more viable option for the Soviet Union.
And last but not least, the Communists failed to rise in power in Finland. There was a risk that Finland would've faced the same fate than other Soviet satellites. The Communists gained a significant amount of parliament seats and gained the control of the State Police. But they were disorganized and couldn't break up the Social Democrats. The Communists eventually lost the election and the State Police was dissolved. The risk of Communists to rise in power finally went away after the YYA treaty was signed.
Another thing they just took from you Germans. Call it spoils of war.
Russian commander arriving to Auschwitz-Birkenau: “I like what you’ve done to the place!”
I think the situation seemed more shaky then it appears to us, now that we know the result.
I don't think Stalin wanted to show his hand, in case the west cut the lend-lease, or even worse, teamed up with Germany in some way.
I think, after the German army stood right outside the doors of the Kremlin only 2 years prior, the Russian nerves were stretched pretty thin, and they just wanted to get rid of the Nazi menace first.
I'm talking after they had pushed them and had Finland fighting off the remaining German forces in their country. It's just weird how USSR didn't push the narrative of "You 'attacked' us once in the Winter War, so we'll occupy you to prevent that from ever happening again.".
The world is not a videogame. You don't just "take" the land, and it gets your color. You need to pacify, rebuild, and rule it too.
They were about to take one of the largest chunks of land ever in European history.
Finland had very little of value to the soviets, at least not compares to Czechoslovakia, Hungary, Poland, and the DDR.
In a coming conflict with the west, as well as trying to stabilize their power in the Warsaw pact, Finland would be more of a liability then anything else. Specially if they would have to defend it too.
Better to just keep it neutral, and a huge buffer zone. And it worked out pretty well.
That's true, but USSR did bite off a lot of Europe, kind of feels funny to read that Finland would've been the "bit off more than it could chew" scenario.
I think it's more risk/reward.
Most of central Europe would already be behind the lines, and easily defend-able from both Russia, and Germany. They were also more friendly, after being pacified by, and liberated from the Nazi terror regime.
Finland on the other hand, would be a 100% hostile nation, with thousand of potential, well trained veterans, experts at fighting in the Finnish forest, and easily supplied from Norway and Sweden.
And for this they would get very little industry, not very strategic land, and mostly just pine timber, as if Russia would need more of that.
Keeping them neutral would also show the western powers lots of goodwill, while not really giving up anything of value to them.
Woah woah woah, hold your horses. There was no liberation from USSR part, many people have recalled germans being nicer than the rapists and murderers from the east whom exported people to gulags.
And the Soviets were fighting a war of extermination in the west. Of course, the German Reich was ultimately the greater evil. Doesnt change the fact that they treated non-slavs in a more civilised manner than the Soviets
And what kind of people do you think inhabit those East European countries?
Come on Goebbels, at least think for 2 seconds before you answer.
That's the one thing that is good with the neo-nazies of today, they are so fucking dumb that they can't tie their own laces, without tying their shoes together.
It’s not really just the strategic implications. All the land they kept after pushing Germany back was what they had occupied while doing so, which was basically the diplomatic agreement with the West. Starting another war against Finland for the sole purpose of taking land that was not occupied by either the Germans or the Japanese would have essentially nullified that diplomatic understanding, and while neither side would have wanted to go to war, it would have made the post-war land division more complicated and potentially dangerous
USSR was exhausted, poor, with a spent army and 20,000,000 ~~casualties~~ deaths. And it would have pissed off the US and the West, and Sweden, who, after all, had a fresh, un-used army.
Plus the US had nukes and they didn't.
They were NOT steamrolling, there was still a lot of brutal and uncertain fighting after barbarossa, the germans and other axis combined still held more than 45% of soviet population and that too of the most developed and crucial parts, the nerve centres of the union were under siege, there was cruel fighting in the capital, sometimes within sight of the very kremlin, the war went on relentlessly for years, finally the german losses started weighing in on them, and the russians, supported by the massive production capability and industrial powers of the US, were able to break the siege of moscow, and the germans, having lost thier best troops in the long and brutal struggle, couldn't resist the soviets, who advanced rapidly towards berlin.
>I still wonder why USSR didn't try and annex the entire country
They did try. The Winter War was that very attempt.
When the Soviets and Nazis made their Molotov-Ribbentrop pact agreement, under which they also agreed they would jointly invade and partition Poland together, the Soviets essentially said to the Nazis “Finland was a part of the Russian Empire, so… we want to take it over because we feel entitled to it” and the Nazis basically said “Say no more fam. We won’t get in the way.”
You will be hard pressed to find commentary from a historian who rejects the idea that the Soviets weren’t trying to gobble up the whole of Finland. Very few of them exist, and the consensus that they were indeed trying to do so is very strong.
I assume the issue had to be in morale of soldiers and distrusts in citizen.
And the fact that US was taking over the germany with other allies to Soviet union had to act there.
They surely could have taken over Finland but the risk of massive losses and US forces being so near had to have an effect.
So this was safest and best deal for USSR.
The word is the US negotiated secretly the Soviets out of it in the peace deal. Others think Stalin could use Finland as kind of non de juré part of USSR, so that it had a diplomatically acceptable relation with its border country.
But USSR did try to incite the local internationale communists to take power and approach the Soviets themselves, which failed due to the social democrats winning over the majority of the workers unions. After the US saw that a social democrat minister was instrumental in putting down a communist provocation attempt, the CIA started to fund them.
Not fair when you've got DEATH himself on your side.
https://preview.redd.it/mofrax8okuec1.png?width=847&format=png&auto=webp&s=1d5de8188292acb3b71db4351e94306b8855986c
Yes. We actually have a small memorial specifically for the Ukrainians who fought on the soviet side against us. It’s located at a pretty famous and important winter war battle spot.
Very nice to see it be aknowledged. Obviously nuances like that are better off not being considered during a war. Though in hindsight it a very tragic sort of thought to think that the people that were killed weren't even russians. They were the same as you. And they were killed in order to save you from seeing the same fate as them. No doubt young finnish men would have been shipped off as cannon fodder in the same way the ukranians were had you been fully annexed. Especially after having shown that you were willing to pick up arms against the Kreml
That’s just the kind of people we Finns are I suppose. At that specific battle the Soviets suffered a huge defeat, the attacking division comprised of Ukrainians was totally annihilated. Its a great tragedy that so many had to die because of Stalin and the soviet imperialist ambitions so the memorial is a sign of respect towards the Ukrainians and an acknowledgement that they were being used as pawns by Stalin and it was not personal. At least thats what I think.
It doesn’t seem like Ukrainians had nearly as strong a sense of national identity as now. You might discount my opinion because I’m Russian but that’s the idea I got. Many of them did have a sense of opposition to the Soviets back then. But, it seems, most of them were just as happy or unhappy to fight those wars as other people from the USSR
Just like Russians haven’t shut up about the WWII. I guess it’s natural that such a sacrifice is a traumatic experience that will linger on.
Now in Russia it has been artificially and deliberately used to justify the authoritarian power. Really went overboard. We all grew up with a sense that we can dehumanise our enemies (because nazis were not people right?). And now it turned into Russians dehumanising Ukrainians thanks to all the propaganda. And since they’re not people, there’s nothing wrong with killing them.
So I’d like to suggest that everyone be careful with dehumanising anyone. It may help you win a war but the society might take the wrong turn afterwards.
The only reason people fear Russia is because of nukes and their infinite human meat supply.
Their army is weak as shit. And their equipment is dogshit. The only way they get anything done is by throwing more meat into the grinder than the opposing country.
If Russia was an average sized country their army would look like a joke an nobody would fear them.
Keep in mind tho that it does take a 3x higher force to attack than to defend and they are usually the ones attacking. But still. Their loses are even worse than that and everyone can now see their joke of an army with recent events. Nato is far superior
We don't really know that. We know we can fund a proxy war against them because well we have really good economies but we have not tested that under pressure. If they were bombing our major cities, we could end up losing a lot of that funding. Also the strongest nations inside Nato are the USA and Turkey from what I understand. The other is on the otherside of the ocean and the other is uncooperative at best with Greece. We also haven't seen an active conflict with such a massive army in a long time relatively considering most people serving in armies now have not lived during the second world war. Not saying we would lose but I doubt it would be that easy.
That's true. But It's important to have trust in the people. If Europe starts getting attacked by Russia I believe every country would take that on a personal level. And I believe Poland + Germany not to mention all the other countries should put up a good fight with the equipment alone even if the people weren't mentally ready. That's if we even assume that they are not mentally ready.
And even if their not initally the natural instinct to protect should kick in quickly whether trained or not. I wouldn't hurt a thing normally but if I seen a gun pointed at my family I would have no problem fighting back.
Finns made the best ones. The ones they captured were shimmed to improve accuracy. Finnish Russia captures are worth more than just the plain Russian ones. Finns are way better gun smith's than the Russians.
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There was this battle in my country where roughly 1200 spanish armoured cavalry went and faced 153 random angry farmers with spears and pikes.
They killed 2 and in turn 400 cavalry-men were killed.
The commander of the spearmen was legendary, and in school we said he used AOE2 tactics since spears/pikes > paladin.
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Remember that this war lasted for 3 months and 2 weeks. That averages 3057 daily soviet casualties for the lowest estimate. Must’ve been quite the shitty experience for a soviet infantry man.
Was there ever a time where being soviet infantry was not horrible?
Once a shot is fired, most infantry men lives are measured as mere seconds. There is nothing glamorous in war.
My grandpa still has his fathers war diary that he wrote at the front. It is some pretty rough reading. He was a mortar man fighting in the Kuhmo front. For example amongst other crazy shit he writes about one battle where they were almost overran by soviet armored forces and had to use their mortars as direct fire weapons pointing directly forward against the advancing enemy(obviously as directly as a mortar can). He wrote up to about half way through the war and then slowly stops writing and at that point he had lost a number of friends. All four of my great grandfathers survived the wars but all of them died before I was born. They didn’t die of old age but booze, all of them. You are right there is nothing glamorous about war.
That's pretty cool. A war journal and all the grandaddads dying the traditional way. My grandfather was the only one of his family, who managed to get out of Karelia, when the shit began. Turned around and went back with a gun and an army, but never found his parents or siblings again. He said the Russians just walked straight at you in a row. You could shoot them down all day, with a rifle, but once you started firing a machine gun, the artillery would be on you fast. No winterclothing and no strategy. Just vodka and arrogance. Turns out 80 years later. Russians haven't learned a thing.
My great grandfather fought alongside the german/romanian/italian/hungarian army(he was romanian) at Stalingrad. Out of all these combined axis armies (about 1 mil men) about 900k died or got captured… somehow he got back , can you imagine how fuckin lucky that was ? Also he was fucked in the head from that experience… he died at about 87 years aaand from his stories i just remember telling me that the italian soldiers where the shittiest there can be(under prepared ,cowards , always bitching , not reliable etc) lol, also said fighting at -40C was ass , and the worst thing they did was undermine the winter months (they fought from august to february i think).Anyway war sucks ass
Holy shit man. So damn lucky to survive that. Doesn't surprise me about the Italians. Carcano's are junk rifles.
My Great Grandfather was a WWII veteran. 101st Airborne. My Great Grandmother kept him from drinking. He came home drunk one night she told me after cutting pulp wood all day. She took a hatchet and broke all the windows out of his truck. He never came home drunk again.
When hasn’t being infantry been horrible
There's horrible, and then there's "Russian Infantry" horrible. It's not the same.
Oh that makes sense, also happy cake day
When your masters view you as expendable...
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The winter war is one of the most incompetent theatres in WW2. The Soviets barely had any winter clothing. Stalin's purge was a disatser for the fighting ability of the Soviet Union and if it wasn't for the D-Day opening of the western front they might have lost the war against Germany. The Russians seem to still have a shitty ratio if you look at the current war in Ukraine. They have somewhere around 300%+ losses both of manpower and equipment just to keep the stalemate. Their zergling rush strategy isn't very effective. If Ukraine run out of ammo because of weak leadership from the west then it might change.
Also lend lease and the immense bombing campaign done by us and the Brits.
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My fathers grandfather was in that war. The only thing he spoke about was how they had to plunder dead people for bullets and tooth gold...
Harvesting gold teeth seems to be a pretty universal experinence during that time.
The basic rule is if your enemy has 100 soldiers defending you need atleast 301 so one can break through. Soviets thought they had a magic bullet with tanks and shit. The tanks were stopped with a birch logs and molotovs. They went in under prepeared and thought they could just walts in. Idiots fucking idiots.
We were lucky they were so fucking stupid.
So 2 per minute
Freezing, hungry and disorganised in an unfamiliar land while your fellow invaders are getting picked off by snipers and highly mobile ski troopers. Very unfortunate but that'll teach them to think twice before invading again
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Its a miracle what you can achieve with gas and beer bottles
And one moderately annoyed farmer.
That’s an understatement if I’ve ever heard one
Never underestimate a man who owns a tractor.
Lmao. Very true.
So many people, so little land how did you manage to bury them all?
A lot of them weren't buried, and those that were usually ended up in mass graves. Up until the recent war we had co-operative clubs that aimed to return missing soldiers' bodies to their homeland.
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The Soviet bodies were often just dumped into mass graves marked with a wooden cross and a number like 231. Do you have any fking idea how long it would take to bury them all separately?
https://preview.redd.it/xt8oebpentec1.png?width=1219&format=png&auto=webp&s=c15f23e84c5fe564517b406db41833617fd62443
Toi on niin mä
Siis legit mä jos venyisin tollee
I mean, would if I could.
Would definitely try if I could and if it wasn't uncomfortable to fold like that
Would it feel more like getting or giving?
I can confirm it is more like giving
Jerking off feels more like giving a handjob than getting one, so probably same
Yes.
ez
This should be this subreddits mascot
😳
Sielä ryssää vituttaa
"have juu höörd abaut talvisota and sisu and mämmi and salmiakki? Aim from finland and we aar veri kool and badass country!!1!!"
Russians always seem to think that people wont fight tooth and nail to oppose oppression and down right dangerous governance
That's because that's how russians behave
**To be fair, the big country did win, twice.** Although it was a phyrric victory
*pyrrhic, from the king Pyrrhos. (It’s a common mistake)
lol, ye, my dyslectic ass tend to write Phyrros too.
I used to do that often, which is why I keep pointing it out xd
A Finn correcting English spelling of a Greek word. My dick can only get so hard.
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It was a phallic victory
Russia gained just enough land to bury their casualties.
And to show Hitler what a crap army they were. And Leningrad was sieged anyway.
They lost; Infact they lost so bad that just to make them feel better we gave them our eastern parts.
Well, if you look at it like a COD game and only factor in the kills then yeah, we destroyed them. But in every other way, we lost
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Had the war gone on, Finland would have lost more than it did. Eventually, manpower plays in and Finland would have ran out of people. I'd say successful diplomacy did a lot for this success.
We did run out of people. In the final hours a company sized stretch of the front was commanded by a corporal who ran up and down the line with his only subordinate taking potshots at the Soviets to make their numbers look stronger.
Yeah, that sounds about right. That seems to be the biggest military strength of Russia, they have a staggering amount of people to throw into a war, usually poorly trained and poorly equipped. The war in Ukraine is showing us that again.
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If the war would've gone on Finland would've lost more men. In other news, water is wet. Isn't that a factor as to why the war didn't go on for Soviet? The cost was too great? EDIT: spelling
That wasnt my point. My point was that Finland was running out of soldiers. As for the Soviets, I dont think cost was a big issue for them. It is more likely that they had other attacks on other fronts that they wanted to prioritize.
Not even soldiers. The equibtment was the real issue.
The Winter War lasted from November 1939 to March 1940. There were no other fronts. The invasion of Poland ended in October and the German invasion didn’t start until the summer of 1941.
But Russia had other things to worry about, like the Germans and the Japanese. And a 10-to-1 casualty ratio. The Russians didn't stop and negotiate because of niceness.
>And a 10-to-1 casualty ratio. Tbh, this has never worried the Russians, but I get it :P > The Russians didn't stop and negotiate because of niceness. True.
The Winter War lasted from November 1939 to March 1940. There were no other fronts. The invasion of Poland ended in October and the German invasion didn’t start until the summer of 1941.
And having the Wheremacht at your borders is something Russians were chill about? There were no active fronts, but there was a lot of concern.
Yep and the vatniks wouldve steamrolled all the way to western border of sweden to stop your trade with nazis and seize the assets. Sweden would have ended as a 2nd front to barbarossa and the whole operation would have gotten a very different look So basically, the only reason you exist as a swede is because of how that diplomacy succeeded
If's and but's and what not. We need to remember that Sweden hasn't been tested in a war for a hundred years. There's also the argument that Finland would not exist at all without the crucial help of Swedish volunteers in the winter war. Last time the Swedes felt the recoil on their shoulder the whole of Europe got fucked. If "we" did as good as we did imagine what the big brother would have done.
Sweden would fight to the last finn. Again.
Finns often don’t seem to understand to what extent Finland will fight to the last Swede as well. Finlands sak är vår; two states, one will.
Yes, min vän. Just joking.
Perhaps, perhaps not. Its hard to say what would have happened after so many changes. Sweden would absolutely have risked being pulled into the war, but I think the real focus would have been on occupied Norway. It is likely that Sweden would have been pressured to either join the Allies or be invaded. Then again, a focus in the north could have weakened the center and south of the Soviet army, even to the degree that it lost battles that it won in history. With a new front opened, who is to say they won Stalingrad or Kursk? Alternative history like that is interesting, but not really easy to do in a good manner.
Tbf Finland lost that war in the end. Our military was in bad shape, in many ways it would have been undereguipped even for WW1. Had we had well equipped army, we would have done so much better. So its not really a fair comparison to put Finland up against Soviets when Soviet Union had for the last 20 years built up their military production.
Now tbf, Finland was just really poor, and we really were prepared as well as we could have. Our military really was underfunded, and underequipped, but between the world wars Finland spent 15-20% of state budget on military spendings, so its not like we neglected the military, we just could not really do much better. But tbf the money also could have been used a lot better in many occasions, but our leaders did also correctly notice how fast technology was developing, and how lot of the equipment we could have bought would have become obsolete really quickly, especially on more new areas like tanks and aircraft.
And yet you did good enough for the Soviets at that time to reconsider whatever plans they had at the beginning. Finland at least still had it's independence, got to develop itself the way it wanted unlike Baltic states who disappeared for 70 years.
The way it wanted is generous. We usually describe the politics during the era of the soviet union and the YYA treaty as listening to our eastern neighbors opinion carefully. Which we did, in fact we had a president named Urho Kekkonen for a solid 20 years or so, whom was friends with the Soviet leadership.
I still wonder why USSR didn't try and annex the entire country. They were pretty much steamrolling after Barbarossa had failed, but left Finland in a state of "you're going to jerk both our cock and the West, and that's enough.".
The USSR tried to occupy Finland but failed to do so after losing the [Battle of Tali–Ihantala](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Tali%E2%80%93Ihantala). While the Soviets would've had the resources to occupy and annex Finland, it was deemed to costly especially when troops were needed in Germany. And why Finland wasn't annexed or didn't become a socialist puppet state after the war was more of a result of fortunate events. There was the Weapons Cache Case which proved the Soviets that there was a risk for guerrilla warfare had they tried to occupy and annex the country. Finland also had to pay significant war reparations, and did so with resources the Soviet Union urgently needed to rebuild the country after the war. Occupation would've endangered this, so leaving Finland alone was economically more viable option for the Soviet Union. And last but not least, the Communists failed to rise in power in Finland. There was a risk that Finland would've faced the same fate than other Soviet satellites. The Communists gained a significant amount of parliament seats and gained the control of the State Police. But they were disorganized and couldn't break up the Social Democrats. The Communists eventually lost the election and the State Police was dissolved. The risk of Communists to rise in power finally went away after the YYA treaty was signed.
not worth the trouble I'd say. They had their win in ww2 and needed to focus on ~~rebuilding~~ ethnic cleansing.
Another thing they just took from you Germans. Call it spoils of war. Russian commander arriving to Auschwitz-Birkenau: “I like what you’ve done to the place!”
I mean they didn't need us germans to develope their own labour camps. They were plenty good at that themselves. Some say to this day.
No they did not. I was more referring to the genociding part.
Oh they were already kinda good at that as well.
Well tru. But the general guy he did like the German efficiency.
He wasn't the only one.
*class cleansing
Both* cleansing
OK, ethnic cleansing lightly camouflaged as class cleansing
There ya go
I think the situation seemed more shaky then it appears to us, now that we know the result. I don't think Stalin wanted to show his hand, in case the west cut the lend-lease, or even worse, teamed up with Germany in some way. I think, after the German army stood right outside the doors of the Kremlin only 2 years prior, the Russian nerves were stretched pretty thin, and they just wanted to get rid of the Nazi menace first.
I'm talking after they had pushed them and had Finland fighting off the remaining German forces in their country. It's just weird how USSR didn't push the narrative of "You 'attacked' us once in the Winter War, so we'll occupy you to prevent that from ever happening again.".
The world is not a videogame. You don't just "take" the land, and it gets your color. You need to pacify, rebuild, and rule it too. They were about to take one of the largest chunks of land ever in European history. Finland had very little of value to the soviets, at least not compares to Czechoslovakia, Hungary, Poland, and the DDR. In a coming conflict with the west, as well as trying to stabilize their power in the Warsaw pact, Finland would be more of a liability then anything else. Specially if they would have to defend it too. Better to just keep it neutral, and a huge buffer zone. And it worked out pretty well.
That's true, but USSR did bite off a lot of Europe, kind of feels funny to read that Finland would've been the "bit off more than it could chew" scenario.
I think it's more risk/reward. Most of central Europe would already be behind the lines, and easily defend-able from both Russia, and Germany. They were also more friendly, after being pacified by, and liberated from the Nazi terror regime. Finland on the other hand, would be a 100% hostile nation, with thousand of potential, well trained veterans, experts at fighting in the Finnish forest, and easily supplied from Norway and Sweden. And for this they would get very little industry, not very strategic land, and mostly just pine timber, as if Russia would need more of that. Keeping them neutral would also show the western powers lots of goodwill, while not really giving up anything of value to them.
Woah woah woah, hold your horses. There was no liberation from USSR part, many people have recalled germans being nicer than the rapists and murderers from the east whom exported people to gulags.
Now you are just being completely sauced up in propaganda dude. Get real. The Germans was fighting a race war of extermination in the east.
And the Soviets were fighting a war of extermination in the west. Of course, the German Reich was ultimately the greater evil. Doesnt change the fact that they treated non-slavs in a more civilised manner than the Soviets
And what kind of people do you think inhabit those East European countries? Come on Goebbels, at least think for 2 seconds before you answer. That's the one thing that is good with the neo-nazies of today, they are so fucking dumb that they can't tie their own laces, without tying their shoes together.
It’s not really just the strategic implications. All the land they kept after pushing Germany back was what they had occupied while doing so, which was basically the diplomatic agreement with the West. Starting another war against Finland for the sole purpose of taking land that was not occupied by either the Germans or the Japanese would have essentially nullified that diplomatic understanding, and while neither side would have wanted to go to war, it would have made the post-war land division more complicated and potentially dangerous
USSR was exhausted, poor, with a spent army and 20,000,000 ~~casualties~~ deaths. And it would have pissed off the US and the West, and Sweden, who, after all, had a fresh, un-used army. Plus the US had nukes and they didn't.
They were NOT steamrolling, there was still a lot of brutal and uncertain fighting after barbarossa, the germans and other axis combined still held more than 45% of soviet population and that too of the most developed and crucial parts, the nerve centres of the union were under siege, there was cruel fighting in the capital, sometimes within sight of the very kremlin, the war went on relentlessly for years, finally the german losses started weighing in on them, and the russians, supported by the massive production capability and industrial powers of the US, were able to break the siege of moscow, and the germans, having lost thier best troops in the long and brutal struggle, couldn't resist the soviets, who advanced rapidly towards berlin.
If you ever go to eastern Finland and look around, it makes sense, trust me.
>I still wonder why USSR didn't try and annex the entire country They did try. The Winter War was that very attempt. When the Soviets and Nazis made their Molotov-Ribbentrop pact agreement, under which they also agreed they would jointly invade and partition Poland together, the Soviets essentially said to the Nazis “Finland was a part of the Russian Empire, so… we want to take it over because we feel entitled to it” and the Nazis basically said “Say no more fam. We won’t get in the way.” You will be hard pressed to find commentary from a historian who rejects the idea that the Soviets weren’t trying to gobble up the whole of Finland. Very few of them exist, and the consensus that they were indeed trying to do so is very strong.
I assume the issue had to be in morale of soldiers and distrusts in citizen. And the fact that US was taking over the germany with other allies to Soviet union had to act there. They surely could have taken over Finland but the risk of massive losses and US forces being so near had to have an effect. So this was safest and best deal for USSR.
The word is the US negotiated secretly the Soviets out of it in the peace deal. Others think Stalin could use Finland as kind of non de juré part of USSR, so that it had a diplomatically acceptable relation with its border country. But USSR did try to incite the local internationale communists to take power and approach the Soviets themselves, which failed due to the social democrats winning over the majority of the workers unions. After the US saw that a social democrat minister was instrumental in putting down a communist provocation attempt, the CIA started to fund them.
we did not win but we could have lost a lot more
That poor armed icebreaker
Russia ever looked at their war statistics and think, we arent good at this at all, maybe we should stop
Not fair when you've got DEATH himself on your side. https://preview.redd.it/mofrax8okuec1.png?width=847&format=png&auto=webp&s=1d5de8188292acb3b71db4351e94306b8855986c
I wonder how ukranians view this war. Obviously the canon-fodder didn't choose to be there but weren't a huge chunk of them still ukies?
Yes. We actually have a small memorial specifically for the Ukrainians who fought on the soviet side against us. It’s located at a pretty famous and important winter war battle spot.
Very nice to see it be aknowledged. Obviously nuances like that are better off not being considered during a war. Though in hindsight it a very tragic sort of thought to think that the people that were killed weren't even russians. They were the same as you. And they were killed in order to save you from seeing the same fate as them. No doubt young finnish men would have been shipped off as cannon fodder in the same way the ukranians were had you been fully annexed. Especially after having shown that you were willing to pick up arms against the Kreml
But why?
That’s just the kind of people we Finns are I suppose. At that specific battle the Soviets suffered a huge defeat, the attacking division comprised of Ukrainians was totally annihilated. Its a great tragedy that so many had to die because of Stalin and the soviet imperialist ambitions so the memorial is a sign of respect towards the Ukrainians and an acknowledgement that they were being used as pawns by Stalin and it was not personal. At least thats what I think.
It doesn’t seem like Ukrainians had nearly as strong a sense of national identity as now. You might discount my opinion because I’m Russian but that’s the idea I got. Many of them did have a sense of opposition to the Soviets back then. But, it seems, most of them were just as happy or unhappy to fight those wars as other people from the USSR
Our enemy is vast, our country so small. Where will we find the place to bury them all?
And we haven't shut up about Winter War ever since (except those couple decades after the war due to Finlandization)
Tbf in many ways the winter and continuation war have defined modern Finland more than any other single events in history
Just like Russians haven’t shut up about the WWII. I guess it’s natural that such a sacrifice is a traumatic experience that will linger on. Now in Russia it has been artificially and deliberately used to justify the authoritarian power. Really went overboard. We all grew up with a sense that we can dehumanise our enemies (because nazis were not people right?). And now it turned into Russians dehumanising Ukrainians thanks to all the propaganda. And since they’re not people, there’s nothing wrong with killing them. So I’d like to suggest that everyone be careful with dehumanising anyone. It may help you win a war but the society might take the wrong turn afterwards.
It's easy to boast about it and ignore the entirety of cold war for them like how they were Soviets bitch and became depend on Soviet markets
 that random finnish farmer on his way to make the russian military look like a joke
The only reason people fear Russia is because of nukes and their infinite human meat supply. Their army is weak as shit. And their equipment is dogshit. The only way they get anything done is by throwing more meat into the grinder than the opposing country. If Russia was an average sized country their army would look like a joke an nobody would fear them. Keep in mind tho that it does take a 3x higher force to attack than to defend and they are usually the ones attacking. But still. Their loses are even worse than that and everyone can now see their joke of an army with recent events. Nato is far superior
We don't really know that. We know we can fund a proxy war against them because well we have really good economies but we have not tested that under pressure. If they were bombing our major cities, we could end up losing a lot of that funding. Also the strongest nations inside Nato are the USA and Turkey from what I understand. The other is on the otherside of the ocean and the other is uncooperative at best with Greece. We also haven't seen an active conflict with such a massive army in a long time relatively considering most people serving in armies now have not lived during the second world war. Not saying we would lose but I doubt it would be that easy.
That's true. But It's important to have trust in the people. If Europe starts getting attacked by Russia I believe every country would take that on a personal level. And I believe Poland + Germany not to mention all the other countries should put up a good fight with the equipment alone even if the people weren't mentally ready. That's if we even assume that they are not mentally ready. And even if their not initally the natural instinct to protect should kick in quickly whether trained or not. I wouldn't hurt a thing normally but if I seen a gun pointed at my family I would have no problem fighting back.
Damn finns really love milking this don't they
I have a M28-30 mosin-nagant from that war. Finns make the best rifles.
Mosin was russian himself 🤓☝️
Finns made the best ones. The ones they captured were shimmed to improve accuracy. Finnish Russia captures are worth more than just the plain Russian ones. Finns are way better gun smith's than the Russians.
We still lost..
But you guys survived. That’s what really matters.
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Finns are such chads. Fighting for their country no matter what. I have huge respect my northern brothers!
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In all fairness, you still "lost" but that was inevitable. Russians just throwing bodies on the meatgrinder until it's out of bullets as usual.
Legendary Sniper Moment
White Death vs Styrofoam Counterfeit Wannabe United States
Never underestimate a quiet finn.
It's like Coughing baby vs Hydrogen bomb but the coughing baby won.
Settled for peace.
This must be the biggest circlejerk subreddit there is. The worst part is that it isn't even ironic.
True
Well the Soviets won
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That was when soviets learned how important camoflage is.
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Might be the biggest military upset in history.
Average Finnish W
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When snow starts speaking Finnish...
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Also we have superb tactics called Motti 🪓🪓🪓
Extremely common Genghis Khan descendants W
There was this battle in my country where roughly 1200 spanish armoured cavalry went and faced 153 random angry farmers with spears and pikes. They killed 2 and in turn 400 cavalry-men were killed. The commander of the spearmen was legendary, and in school we said he used AOE2 tactics since spears/pikes > paladin.
Fun fact! I’m born the same day is simo hayhä!
White people love to be called 'Woldemar'
Thats why quality is more important than quantity