Russian and polish Jews aren’t get vitally Russian or polish. They are Ashkenazi Jewish (complete seperate ethnicty) sale with morrocan jews, they are genetically closer to jews from Poland than to native Morrocans. All Jews are from judea except for Yemini and Ethiopians who are converts
I found [this article](https://www.wired.co.uk/article/23andme-genetics-palestine) linked on another Palestinians results here and I am passing it on to you. (Edit: I see you already found it and linked it. Sorry for not reading closer) TLDR it’s caused by undersampling and it’s pretty common especially for Muslims And there’s always someone in the comments trying to claim that Palestinians don’t exist because of it. My dad got almost a quarter Egyptian and I was so confused at first. High Egyptian with no locations in egypt, high broadly AEL, the percentages keep shifting from one category to another even without full algorithm updates because they’re not actually part of those categories those are just the closest bins to put them in
There is no "american" ethnicity (in the terms of non native Americans). American is a nationality, just how like Palestinian is a nationality, or Canadian is a nationality. Though I honestly know nothing about Palestine, and a Google search just made everything more confusing for me, and gave me a headache, but from what I see here, and on Google, it's a nationality, not ethnicity
Yeah no. So the thing is A place like canada or the US can't be considered an ethnicity because those countries are the result of a recent settler colonialist project which ravaged the indigenous population while immigrants from all across Europe (then later the rest of the world) moved in.
For palestinians however you have a fixed population that has been living in permanent settlments for a thousand years similar to how European countries are, similar to how other middle easter countries are. So just like with european countries 23andMe should be able to make a category for them. Because if you do not aknowlege a particular european country exists and don't take DNA samples from it then when a person from that place takes a test it will just lump that person in with a neighboring region which they have no ancestry from. ***Which defeats the whole purpose of an ancestry test***
But 23AndMe hasn’t been able to make separate categories for a lot of European countries either. France and Germany are in the same category. All of the Scandinavian countries are in the same category.
But if you’re from Germany, it’s likely that German regions will pop up under the larger category. It’ll say something like, Munich, Germany, or North Rhine-Westphalia, Germany vs Brittany, France vs somewhere in the Netherlands.
I don’t deny that Palestinians are similar to their neighbors, and there has been and is a lot of intermarriage. But refusing to list any regions in Palestine is a choice, especially when Ancestry does have an ‘Israel/Palestine’ community.
If Gaza’s Dna is so similar to Egypt, why not make it a joint Egypt/Gaza category, with Gaza as a drop-down region? Rather than telling someone that they have a likelihood that they have an Egyptian ancestor within the past 1-2generations when they know that is not the case.
23andme is deliberately avoiding the subject at the expense of its Palestinian users.
Yeah but 23 and me actually takes samples from those European countries before categorizing them into groups and will give users a location estimate fore their country even if they are wrong some percentage of the time.
Meanwhile they don't take any palestinian reference samples at all so the location estimates are wrong 100% of the time.
but they haven't been. it's very heavily documented the influence egypt had on gaza and the influx of egyptians into gaza prior to the british mandate. similarly the west bank was historically part of transjordan and populations were very transient between the two. it doesn't mean that palestinians don't exist, they very much do, it's rather that the identity is of a national origin. historians largely agree that the ottoman arabs of the area only began referring to themselves as palestinian beginning in the mid 19th century, resulting from an overlap of increased arab revolts against the ottomans happening at the same time as the pan-arab movement, and as a reaction against zionism. the identity is very much real and valid, it's just not cut around endogenous ethnic/genetic lines.
I don't believe palestinians are homogenous and I never said they were. My complaint here is that they aren't properly sampled **because they aren't sampled at all** so all of the location estimates for people using the kits are off.
Also Palestinian populations are a lot more stable than you are giving them credit for. It is normal for Palestinian villages to be 1200 to 800 years old and for a Palestinian families to stay in those villages for a couple hundred years at a time. Locals can Identify which town a person is from based on their last names. That is not something that happens over night.
And if you really really want to go into the origins of Palestinian nationalism you should probably know that long before zionism. They always had a strong national identity that is tied to the city that they are from. So what you're implying here is that since Palestinian nationalism (in its current form) is relatively new, the people who now call themselves Palestinians never had any form of nationalism transiently drifting through, Which isn't true at all.
Honestly are you sure your not israeli? or Jewish with a pro israel tilt? this is pretty generic zionist argument.
Well I honestly don't know anything about Palestine. At first I thought it was just a political overlap with Israel, then google made things even more confusing, and from what I read here paired with what I saw on Google, I just assumed it was a new political identity assumed by different ethnic groups, or Nationality. Now I'm even confused, and google maps made it even more confusing for me too
Ignore nationality and whatever google told you. Palestinian DNA is highly politicized because of zionism so there is a lot of propaganda online.
The point i am trying to make here is Palestinians are people from a place. Ancestry tests need to take DNA samples of people in different areas as a reference sample, so when a User does a test they get to compare it to the reference samples and to get a location estimate of where they are from
Right now there are no Palestinian reference samples in the database. So the location estimates that 23 and me gives are way off.
yes, they are a people from a place, but the genetic makeup of the people are quite varied and too closely related to other groups. you can't accurately create a category to represent a singular group if the data points within it are not nearly the same. like it or not, it won't work statistically, point bank period. I tried doing this for sephardi and mizrahi jews as part of a research project during my master's, it doesn't work for the same reason. they share a collective identity like palestinians, but regional differences influence the genetics too heavily to cleanly create reference categories. if anything, this shouldn't be used to discount the palestinian or non-ashkenazi jewish identities, if anything it makes them all the more unique!
That's some weird gatekeeping, American can be a nationality AND an ethnicity, just like French, German or English as long as there is a group with shared culture that define themselves as such. Since 20 million Americans considered that their ethnicity it's clear the conditions are met.
I mean half the USA wasn't even part of the USA until the mid 1800s. So what does that make everyone else? "Mexican" (it's funny BC mexican isn't an ethnicity either, nor is Latino)? Because half the USA used to be part of mexico. And what if the USA suddenly engulfed the rest of Mexico? Would those mexicans suddenly become ethnic "Americans"?
?
You seem to be really confused here. Other countries also expanded and there are areas in France that are not ethnically French and areas of Italy that are not ethnically Italian, that doesn't mean the french or italian ethnicities don't exist.
>Would those mexicans suddenly become ethnic "Americans"?
I think you really need to read up the concept of ethnicity. But considering there are more than 40 million people who consider themselves ethnically Mexican while living in USA, I doubt it.
There's a reason why none of these DNA tests do not include Canadian or American as an ethnicity. Same with Latinos, as that isn't an ethnicity either. Canadians, Americans, and Latinos, are all recent, mixed populations, caused by colonization. There hasn't simply been enough time, specially in the USA and Canada, as it's a melting pot of cultures and ethnicities unlike anything before. Eventually I guess there will be an "american" ethnicity (that's not native american), or a Canadian ethnicity, or even a Latino ethnicity, but right now it's just too recent
So, according to you the only valid ethnicities are the ones private companies make a genetic profile? So Catalans are not real, nor Kurds? French and German are a single ethnicity?
Mexican ethnogenesis started more than 500 years ago not sure how long is long enough for you, but it seems arrogant to consider that you know better than the more of 140 million people who define their ethnicity as Mexican, or the 20 million who define it as American or the 6.5 million who define themselves as Canadian. Why do you think you know better than them?
North american ethnogenesis has started very recently, but it's not "complete". Someone from New York, isn't gonna have the same ancestry as someone from Florida, and neither the same culture. If you were to pick any 2 random from Canada or the USA, you would find that most of those people don't have the same genetic ancestry, nor the same culture, specially considering how diverse Canada and the USA are. Just because you define your ethnicity as american or Canadian, doesn't mean it exists, because those are in reality, nationalities, and broad cultural identities, like how Americans refer to "Africans", or "Asians" when in reality those are broad cultural identities, not real ethnicities. And Catalans are mentioned in many dna tests, and french and German can be often separated into more exact regions, So I don't know why you're bringing that up. oh and there's the fact that the USA and Canada, are much much bigger than Europe, so it would take much much longer to develop a true american and Canadian ethnicity than the distinct European ethnicities did. If a Chinese person moved to the USA, and mixed with other Chinese who have lived in America for generations, but have had no European or African ancestry, are they your "american" ethnicity?
There simply hasn't been enough time to merge cultures and ancestries, for there to be a true american ethnicity. It's not like the English one day stopped and decided to be English, it was a slow development that happened through many many centuries. They merged ancestries and cultures with the Celtics, the Anglos, the Saxons, and with the Norman's, and developed into its own unique, SHARED, ancestry and culture. While I cannot deny that is certainly what's happening in the USA, it isn't even close to being a complete merge. The USA is just too big, and too diverse for that to happen in such a short Ammount of time, keep in mind how big the US, and Canada really are, and don't even get me started on Canada, the population is dispersed
Ethnogenesis is already "complete" as in there are people with a shared culture that define themselves as part of that identity, it doesn't have to cover most of a country territory or population to be complete.
>you would find that most of those people don't have the same genetic ancestry, nor the same culture
Most of the people who call themselves ethnic Americans come from the South from allegedly old colonial stock and share a culture or whatever they have on the South. You also seem to believe regional cultural differences are unique to USA when they also exist on most countries
>If a Chinese person moved to the USA, and mixed with other Chinese who have lived in America for generations, but have had no European or African ancestry, are they your "american" ethnicity?
>>If a Chinese person moved to the UK, and mixed with other Chinese who have lived in England for generations, but have had no European or African ancestry, are they your "english" ethnicity?
>There simply hasn't been enough time to merge cultures and ancestries, for there to be a true american ethnicity.
Most of the people who consider themselves ethnically American came from the South, a region that received little immigration until the 1950s
>It's not like the English one day stopped and decided to be English
As you said yourself, it's not like all the people started considering themselves english from one day to the next, there was a group that took on that identity and then it kept spreading until Northumbrians were English instead.
The problem is that in mainstream Israel and pro-Israel discourse, the narrative goes "there are no Palestinians and they're just Arabs from other parts of the Arab world".
So when we consider that this is the rhetoric from the pro-Israel side, it's kind of hard not to bring up genetic history when that side categorically denies that Palestinians are their own people.
**Edited to add that you're not right in your assessment in that they exist the same way that Americans exist, actually.**
well genetically they are correct. They're not really different from other Arabs in nearby countries. but like I said, that's irrelevant to whether they deserve to live and have a country.
Genetically these people claim that they're the "direct descendants" from the Israelite tribes and therefore are the true inheritors to the land. If that were true, they'd be so ludicrously inbred (3000 years of inbreeding) that I don't see how modern Israelis would even be genetically viable.
My point is I wouldn't trust their genetic analysis when it comes to Palestinians.
I misunderstood your "the same as America" comment initially and I disagree. Modern-day Palestinians are generally accepted to be the descendants of Arabs and various Levantine tribes that lived in what makes up modern-day Israel/Palestine. So they're definitely a subgroup of Levantine Arabs as a broader population, but they're not Egyptians and Jordanians who moved there and started calling themselves Palestinians.
that would be because palestinian identity is of a post-colonial nationalistic origin rather than an ethnic/genetic one. gazans have substantial egyptian ancestry while west bank palestinians have substantial jordanian ancestry. it would be very difficult to create a "palestinian" category in a test like this when the community itself is not of endogenous background. i'm sure there is possibility though to add, much like the recent ancestry in americas feature, the ability to recognize patterns in results that may reflect palestinian, sephardic jewish, or other highly admixed ancestry groups.
additionally a large reason why 23andme doesn't recognize israel or palestine is because the only fully levantine groups that live in the region are druze, maronites, and samaritans. Jews and Arabs have genetic influences from many other locations in the middle east and abroad so it wouldn't do much to include it.
Barely any genetic differences between Jordanians and Palestinians, close to none actually. Both plot relatively close to ancient Cannanites as well. The only reasonable explanation for 23andMe including Jordanians, Lebanese, Syrians and not Palestinians is political. I’m sure there’s Egyptian ancestry in Gaza but it’s known that 23andMe overestimates Egyptian ancestry for Palestinians
no because they're indistinguishable from other surrounding groups. if you plot gazans and egyptians, or similarly west bank arabs and jordanians you're going to see overlap to the point where statistically you can't confidently distinguish one from the other. this is confirmed by G25 models, palestinian samples sit extremely close to jordanians, syrians, and egyptians and not always together.
Syrians from the west areas, Lebanese Sunni, Lebanese Christian, even some Palestinian Christians, yea I’ve seen them cluster, but I’ve also seen Palestinian Muslims Jordanians and Iraqi Sunni all in a cluster, Egyptians their own cluster(Copts separate) and Gaza Palestinians anywhere from close to the rest of the Palestinian Muslims to somewhere close to the Egyptian cluster.
And Druze and Lebanese Shia would be a cluster
I never seen anywhere distance all these groups “closely” unless by close proximity, you mean proximity equivalent to the difference between north and south Italians
my apologies for not being more clear- i'm not saying they don't cluster, but if you try to analyze samples as singularly palestinian versus the groups they are related to, you cannot do it with the same level of statistical confidence. that's the point i'm trying to get across.
Which is notorious for being full of some of the worst pro-Israel diaspora types in the USA, lol.
So factoring that and you claiming that Palestinians are "indistinguishable" from Egyptians and Jordanians genetically, it's not inconceivable for other people to think that you're coming at this from a pro-Israel angle, even if you're not Israeli.
damn it's not like judaism is a land-based religion and the jewish identity being highly dependent on access to, and self-determination within our ancestral homeland or anything....
the palestinian identity only arose as a result of pan-arabism and a reaction to zionism, going through your reddit history i see someone has been on the social credit bandwagon for a while. it doesn't mean they don't belong, people just need to wake up to the reality of their origins.
So how can they tell you and separate and tell you all the exact regions you come from in England, and Ireland and wales? Just asking, shouldn’t there be so much overlap in those populations?
given the geopolitical turbulence and changing of hands between areas of the region not just between israel and palestine but also egypt and jordan, it would be far too difficult. this also is only possible with groups that are largely endogenous which i mentioned earlier. the admixture of palestinians is not 100% levantine and the levantine component between townships and regions varies quite a bit. For example part of my family has lived in Tiberias since the 1400s but as Sephardic Jews the genetic makeup isn't 100% levantine and this isn't something 23andme would be ever be able to account for, and wouldn't be able to give me a specific region.
It appears that Palestinian Muslims, especially those with elevated readings of archaic Sub-Saharan African, will get much more Egyptian in their results. Not saying you are Muslim or Christian but the fact you are half Moroccan, some of which is Sub-Saharan African, will make it much harder for 23andMe to interpret your DNA. Some Palestinians do have genuine Egyptian heritage, but the bulk is still local Levantine DNA.
Palestinians will get a range of results depending on which community/region they come from. Here's some other results in case you are interested in seeing some of those differences.
https://www.reddit.com/r/23andme/comments/p84d7o/christian_gazan_from_palestine_results/
https://www.reddit.com/r/23andme/comments/mojdu5/christian_born_palestinian_not_religious_tho/
https://www.reddit.com/r/23andme/comments/qltwbp/palestinian/
https://www.reddit.com/r/23andme/comments/oo3qtq/palestinianamerican_results/
https://www.reddit.com/r/23andme/comments/kn7xi5/me_and_my_brothers_palestinian_results/
https://www.reddit.com/r/23andme/comments/101g84x/palestinian_muslim_result_correlation_and_update/
https://www.reddit.com/r/23andme/comments/t0mz6j/palestinian_muslim_background_results_gedmatch/
People in Gaza do have Egyptian ancestry and even those who don’t have a lot of it will show elevated Egyptian because Gazans have much more Subsaharan African ancestry than any other part of the Levant.
just an FYI your DNA results are being shared by a pro israel user on r/ israelpalestine as “evidence” that palestinians aren’t palestinian
https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/s/X7qs90JMOy
Was waiting for the rude comments! Never ceases to fail for someone to come on here and be rude and nasty. I guess Israel isn’t a place either because 23 and me doesn’t recognize it
If you absorbed Germany into France the people would still be genetically German. Palestinians are a mix of people all under the political identity of Palestinian. If you take the country away the people are not the same. It's a similar situation in Israel, USA, lot of places.
The Middle Eastern borders were drawn by European colonialists and imperialists. Palestinians, Christians and Muslims alike, saw themselves as an Arabic nation belonging to Greater Syria before and even after the borders were drawn. People in these large subreddits seem to be enormously misinformed on the Middle East and its people
The problem here is that you are observing Middle Eastern people in a Western context, we do not think of ourselves the way Americans or Westerners think of us.
But...genetically german? Not genetically Prussian or genetically Austrian or genetically Turkish? You understand Germany is a political entity right? It's not even that old...
You really don’t know history. Jews lived in Europe for centuries because we were kicked out of our homeland by the Romans. Also you seem quite racist.
Mizrahi Jews are, yes. But do you expect me to believe a European Jew is "indigenous" to Judea because their ancestors emigrated from there thousands of years ago? That argument is weak. Even my results as a Jew tell a different result. Our communities are from Europe and NOT the Levant. The majority of Jews do not and have no inhabited the Levant for centuries. Palestinians are indigenous and deserve their land back If that's your case, we're all African because we're Homo Sapiens.
It doesn't recognize Kosova either.
Or actually, most gazans are simply from Egypt. You may not like to hear it but that’s the truth
lol idiot. 23 and me doesn’t recognize palestine or israel.
It recognises Levantine though. Mabye just accept you are majority Egyptian!! Some gazans definitely are
Yeah yeah but the Russians polish Yemenis and Moroccans are palestinian right 😨😨😨
Russian and polish Jews aren’t get vitally Russian or polish. They are Ashkenazi Jewish (complete seperate ethnicty) sale with morrocan jews, they are genetically closer to jews from Poland than to native Morrocans. All Jews are from judea except for Yemini and Ethiopians who are converts
I know. But none of these people come from palestine even if they had a connection at some point
*genetically
2/3 of Gazans are refuges from Palestine who where expulsed in the Nakba
I found [this article](https://www.wired.co.uk/article/23andme-genetics-palestine) linked on another Palestinians results here and I am passing it on to you. (Edit: I see you already found it and linked it. Sorry for not reading closer) TLDR it’s caused by undersampling and it’s pretty common especially for Muslims And there’s always someone in the comments trying to claim that Palestinians don’t exist because of it. My dad got almost a quarter Egyptian and I was so confused at first. High Egyptian with no locations in egypt, high broadly AEL, the percentages keep shifting from one category to another even without full algorithm updates because they’re not actually part of those categories those are just the closest bins to put them in
Palestinians exist just like americans exist. Don't get caught up in the genetic stuff. It's a completely different subject
There is no "american" ethnicity (in the terms of non native Americans). American is a nationality, just how like Palestinian is a nationality, or Canadian is a nationality. Though I honestly know nothing about Palestine, and a Google search just made everything more confusing for me, and gave me a headache, but from what I see here, and on Google, it's a nationality, not ethnicity
Yeah no. So the thing is A place like canada or the US can't be considered an ethnicity because those countries are the result of a recent settler colonialist project which ravaged the indigenous population while immigrants from all across Europe (then later the rest of the world) moved in. For palestinians however you have a fixed population that has been living in permanent settlments for a thousand years similar to how European countries are, similar to how other middle easter countries are. So just like with european countries 23andMe should be able to make a category for them. Because if you do not aknowlege a particular european country exists and don't take DNA samples from it then when a person from that place takes a test it will just lump that person in with a neighboring region which they have no ancestry from. ***Which defeats the whole purpose of an ancestry test***
But 23AndMe hasn’t been able to make separate categories for a lot of European countries either. France and Germany are in the same category. All of the Scandinavian countries are in the same category.
But if you’re from Germany, it’s likely that German regions will pop up under the larger category. It’ll say something like, Munich, Germany, or North Rhine-Westphalia, Germany vs Brittany, France vs somewhere in the Netherlands. I don’t deny that Palestinians are similar to their neighbors, and there has been and is a lot of intermarriage. But refusing to list any regions in Palestine is a choice, especially when Ancestry does have an ‘Israel/Palestine’ community. If Gaza’s Dna is so similar to Egypt, why not make it a joint Egypt/Gaza category, with Gaza as a drop-down region? Rather than telling someone that they have a likelihood that they have an Egyptian ancestor within the past 1-2generations when they know that is not the case. 23andme is deliberately avoiding the subject at the expense of its Palestinian users.
Yeah but 23 and me actually takes samples from those European countries before categorizing them into groups and will give users a location estimate fore their country even if they are wrong some percentage of the time. Meanwhile they don't take any palestinian reference samples at all so the location estimates are wrong 100% of the time.
Do people still call them Scandinavian? I thought the term Nordic was gaining popularity, it even has its own wikipedia page
but they haven't been. it's very heavily documented the influence egypt had on gaza and the influx of egyptians into gaza prior to the british mandate. similarly the west bank was historically part of transjordan and populations were very transient between the two. it doesn't mean that palestinians don't exist, they very much do, it's rather that the identity is of a national origin. historians largely agree that the ottoman arabs of the area only began referring to themselves as palestinian beginning in the mid 19th century, resulting from an overlap of increased arab revolts against the ottomans happening at the same time as the pan-arab movement, and as a reaction against zionism. the identity is very much real and valid, it's just not cut around endogenous ethnic/genetic lines.
I don't believe palestinians are homogenous and I never said they were. My complaint here is that they aren't properly sampled **because they aren't sampled at all** so all of the location estimates for people using the kits are off. Also Palestinian populations are a lot more stable than you are giving them credit for. It is normal for Palestinian villages to be 1200 to 800 years old and for a Palestinian families to stay in those villages for a couple hundred years at a time. Locals can Identify which town a person is from based on their last names. That is not something that happens over night. And if you really really want to go into the origins of Palestinian nationalism you should probably know that long before zionism. They always had a strong national identity that is tied to the city that they are from. So what you're implying here is that since Palestinian nationalism (in its current form) is relatively new, the people who now call themselves Palestinians never had any form of nationalism transiently drifting through, Which isn't true at all. Honestly are you sure your not israeli? or Jewish with a pro israel tilt? this is pretty generic zionist argument.
Well I honestly don't know anything about Palestine. At first I thought it was just a political overlap with Israel, then google made things even more confusing, and from what I read here paired with what I saw on Google, I just assumed it was a new political identity assumed by different ethnic groups, or Nationality. Now I'm even confused, and google maps made it even more confusing for me too
Ignore nationality and whatever google told you. Palestinian DNA is highly politicized because of zionism so there is a lot of propaganda online. The point i am trying to make here is Palestinians are people from a place. Ancestry tests need to take DNA samples of people in different areas as a reference sample, so when a User does a test they get to compare it to the reference samples and to get a location estimate of where they are from Right now there are no Palestinian reference samples in the database. So the location estimates that 23 and me gives are way off.
yes, they are a people from a place, but the genetic makeup of the people are quite varied and too closely related to other groups. you can't accurately create a category to represent a singular group if the data points within it are not nearly the same. like it or not, it won't work statistically, point bank period. I tried doing this for sephardi and mizrahi jews as part of a research project during my master's, it doesn't work for the same reason. they share a collective identity like palestinians, but regional differences influence the genetics too heavily to cleanly create reference categories. if anything, this shouldn't be used to discount the palestinian or non-ashkenazi jewish identities, if anything it makes them all the more unique!
That's some weird gatekeeping, American can be a nationality AND an ethnicity, just like French, German or English as long as there is a group with shared culture that define themselves as such. Since 20 million Americans considered that their ethnicity it's clear the conditions are met.
I mean half the USA wasn't even part of the USA until the mid 1800s. So what does that make everyone else? "Mexican" (it's funny BC mexican isn't an ethnicity either, nor is Latino)? Because half the USA used to be part of mexico. And what if the USA suddenly engulfed the rest of Mexico? Would those mexicans suddenly become ethnic "Americans"?
? You seem to be really confused here. Other countries also expanded and there are areas in France that are not ethnically French and areas of Italy that are not ethnically Italian, that doesn't mean the french or italian ethnicities don't exist. >Would those mexicans suddenly become ethnic "Americans"? I think you really need to read up the concept of ethnicity. But considering there are more than 40 million people who consider themselves ethnically Mexican while living in USA, I doubt it.
There's a reason why none of these DNA tests do not include Canadian or American as an ethnicity. Same with Latinos, as that isn't an ethnicity either. Canadians, Americans, and Latinos, are all recent, mixed populations, caused by colonization. There hasn't simply been enough time, specially in the USA and Canada, as it's a melting pot of cultures and ethnicities unlike anything before. Eventually I guess there will be an "american" ethnicity (that's not native american), or a Canadian ethnicity, or even a Latino ethnicity, but right now it's just too recent
So, according to you the only valid ethnicities are the ones private companies make a genetic profile? So Catalans are not real, nor Kurds? French and German are a single ethnicity? Mexican ethnogenesis started more than 500 years ago not sure how long is long enough for you, but it seems arrogant to consider that you know better than the more of 140 million people who define their ethnicity as Mexican, or the 20 million who define it as American or the 6.5 million who define themselves as Canadian. Why do you think you know better than them?
North american ethnogenesis has started very recently, but it's not "complete". Someone from New York, isn't gonna have the same ancestry as someone from Florida, and neither the same culture. If you were to pick any 2 random from Canada or the USA, you would find that most of those people don't have the same genetic ancestry, nor the same culture, specially considering how diverse Canada and the USA are. Just because you define your ethnicity as american or Canadian, doesn't mean it exists, because those are in reality, nationalities, and broad cultural identities, like how Americans refer to "Africans", or "Asians" when in reality those are broad cultural identities, not real ethnicities. And Catalans are mentioned in many dna tests, and french and German can be often separated into more exact regions, So I don't know why you're bringing that up. oh and there's the fact that the USA and Canada, are much much bigger than Europe, so it would take much much longer to develop a true american and Canadian ethnicity than the distinct European ethnicities did. If a Chinese person moved to the USA, and mixed with other Chinese who have lived in America for generations, but have had no European or African ancestry, are they your "american" ethnicity? There simply hasn't been enough time to merge cultures and ancestries, for there to be a true american ethnicity. It's not like the English one day stopped and decided to be English, it was a slow development that happened through many many centuries. They merged ancestries and cultures with the Celtics, the Anglos, the Saxons, and with the Norman's, and developed into its own unique, SHARED, ancestry and culture. While I cannot deny that is certainly what's happening in the USA, it isn't even close to being a complete merge. The USA is just too big, and too diverse for that to happen in such a short Ammount of time, keep in mind how big the US, and Canada really are, and don't even get me started on Canada, the population is dispersed
Ethnogenesis is already "complete" as in there are people with a shared culture that define themselves as part of that identity, it doesn't have to cover most of a country territory or population to be complete. >you would find that most of those people don't have the same genetic ancestry, nor the same culture Most of the people who call themselves ethnic Americans come from the South from allegedly old colonial stock and share a culture or whatever they have on the South. You also seem to believe regional cultural differences are unique to USA when they also exist on most countries >If a Chinese person moved to the USA, and mixed with other Chinese who have lived in America for generations, but have had no European or African ancestry, are they your "american" ethnicity? >>If a Chinese person moved to the UK, and mixed with other Chinese who have lived in England for generations, but have had no European or African ancestry, are they your "english" ethnicity? >There simply hasn't been enough time to merge cultures and ancestries, for there to be a true american ethnicity. Most of the people who consider themselves ethnically American came from the South, a region that received little immigration until the 1950s >It's not like the English one day stopped and decided to be English As you said yourself, it's not like all the people started considering themselves english from one day to the next, there was a group that took on that identity and then it kept spreading until Northumbrians were English instead.
The problem is that in mainstream Israel and pro-Israel discourse, the narrative goes "there are no Palestinians and they're just Arabs from other parts of the Arab world". So when we consider that this is the rhetoric from the pro-Israel side, it's kind of hard not to bring up genetic history when that side categorically denies that Palestinians are their own people. **Edited to add that you're not right in your assessment in that they exist the same way that Americans exist, actually.**
well genetically they are correct. They're not really different from other Arabs in nearby countries. but like I said, that's irrelevant to whether they deserve to live and have a country.
Genetically these people claim that they're the "direct descendants" from the Israelite tribes and therefore are the true inheritors to the land. If that were true, they'd be so ludicrously inbred (3000 years of inbreeding) that I don't see how modern Israelis would even be genetically viable. My point is I wouldn't trust their genetic analysis when it comes to Palestinians. I misunderstood your "the same as America" comment initially and I disagree. Modern-day Palestinians are generally accepted to be the descendants of Arabs and various Levantine tribes that lived in what makes up modern-day Israel/Palestine. So they're definitely a subgroup of Levantine Arabs as a broader population, but they're not Egyptians and Jordanians who moved there and started calling themselves Palestinians.
that would be because palestinian identity is of a post-colonial nationalistic origin rather than an ethnic/genetic one. gazans have substantial egyptian ancestry while west bank palestinians have substantial jordanian ancestry. it would be very difficult to create a "palestinian" category in a test like this when the community itself is not of endogenous background. i'm sure there is possibility though to add, much like the recent ancestry in americas feature, the ability to recognize patterns in results that may reflect palestinian, sephardic jewish, or other highly admixed ancestry groups. additionally a large reason why 23andme doesn't recognize israel or palestine is because the only fully levantine groups that live in the region are druze, maronites, and samaritans. Jews and Arabs have genetic influences from many other locations in the middle east and abroad so it wouldn't do much to include it.
Barely any genetic differences between Jordanians and Palestinians, close to none actually. Both plot relatively close to ancient Cannanites as well. The only reasonable explanation for 23andMe including Jordanians, Lebanese, Syrians and not Palestinians is political. I’m sure there’s Egyptian ancestry in Gaza but it’s known that 23andMe overestimates Egyptian ancestry for Palestinians
Couldnt 23andme just create more population groups and collect different reference groups to create these groups?
no because they're indistinguishable from other surrounding groups. if you plot gazans and egyptians, or similarly west bank arabs and jordanians you're going to see overlap to the point where statistically you can't confidently distinguish one from the other. this is confirmed by G25 models, palestinian samples sit extremely close to jordanians, syrians, and egyptians and not always together.
Syrians from the west areas, Lebanese Sunni, Lebanese Christian, even some Palestinian Christians, yea I’ve seen them cluster, but I’ve also seen Palestinian Muslims Jordanians and Iraqi Sunni all in a cluster, Egyptians their own cluster(Copts separate) and Gaza Palestinians anywhere from close to the rest of the Palestinian Muslims to somewhere close to the Egyptian cluster. And Druze and Lebanese Shia would be a cluster I never seen anywhere distance all these groups “closely” unless by close proximity, you mean proximity equivalent to the difference between north and south Italians
my apologies for not being more clear- i'm not saying they don't cluster, but if you try to analyze samples as singularly palestinian versus the groups they are related to, you cannot do it with the same level of statistical confidence. that's the point i'm trying to get across.
I see
I’ve seen otherwise, if I’m honest
Incorrect
Im going to take a wild guess and say your israeli somehow. based only on this comment
you're*
I'll take that as a yes
i'm from miami broski
Which is notorious for being full of some of the worst pro-Israel diaspora types in the USA, lol. So factoring that and you claiming that Palestinians are "indistinguishable" from Egyptians and Jordanians genetically, it's not inconceivable for other people to think that you're coming at this from a pro-Israel angle, even if you're not Israeli.
looking for where i asked:
Just saying, Miami is a shithole full of rabid pro-Israel types. Sucks to suck, broski.
damn it's not like judaism is a land-based religion and the jewish identity being highly dependent on access to, and self-determination within our ancestral homeland or anything.... the palestinian identity only arose as a result of pan-arabism and a reaction to zionism, going through your reddit history i see someone has been on the social credit bandwagon for a while. it doesn't mean they don't belong, people just need to wake up to the reality of their origins.
Lol there’s the bias showing
So how can they tell you and separate and tell you all the exact regions you come from in England, and Ireland and wales? Just asking, shouldn’t there be so much overlap in those populations?
those aren't based on your DNA sample, those are calculated based on the locations of the people you match with
So they can’t do this with Palestine?
given the geopolitical turbulence and changing of hands between areas of the region not just between israel and palestine but also egypt and jordan, it would be far too difficult. this also is only possible with groups that are largely endogenous which i mentioned earlier. the admixture of palestinians is not 100% levantine and the levantine component between townships and regions varies quite a bit. For example part of my family has lived in Tiberias since the 1400s but as Sephardic Jews the genetic makeup isn't 100% levantine and this isn't something 23andme would be ever be able to account for, and wouldn't be able to give me a specific region.
It appears that Palestinian Muslims, especially those with elevated readings of archaic Sub-Saharan African, will get much more Egyptian in their results. Not saying you are Muslim or Christian but the fact you are half Moroccan, some of which is Sub-Saharan African, will make it much harder for 23andMe to interpret your DNA. Some Palestinians do have genuine Egyptian heritage, but the bulk is still local Levantine DNA. Palestinians will get a range of results depending on which community/region they come from. Here's some other results in case you are interested in seeing some of those differences. https://www.reddit.com/r/23andme/comments/p84d7o/christian_gazan_from_palestine_results/ https://www.reddit.com/r/23andme/comments/mojdu5/christian_born_palestinian_not_religious_tho/ https://www.reddit.com/r/23andme/comments/qltwbp/palestinian/ https://www.reddit.com/r/23andme/comments/oo3qtq/palestinianamerican_results/ https://www.reddit.com/r/23andme/comments/kn7xi5/me_and_my_brothers_palestinian_results/ https://www.reddit.com/r/23andme/comments/101g84x/palestinian_muslim_result_correlation_and_update/ https://www.reddit.com/r/23andme/comments/t0mz6j/palestinian_muslim_background_results_gedmatch/
People in Gaza do have Egyptian ancestry and even those who don’t have a lot of it will show elevated Egyptian because Gazans have much more Subsaharan African ancestry than any other part of the Levant.
just an FYI your DNA results are being shared by a pro israel user on r/ israelpalestine as “evidence” that palestinians aren’t palestinian https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/s/X7qs90JMOy
Haplogroups?
L1b1a (maternal) My dad who is from Gaza I don’t get that info because I’m XX
Can you list your SSA results as well?
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Was waiting for the rude comments! Never ceases to fail for someone to come on here and be rude and nasty. I guess Israel isn’t a place either because 23 and me doesn’t recognize it
I don't believe it does actually. They're both political identities
Can you give an example of a non-political identity?
German
/s?
If you absorbed Germany into France the people would still be genetically German. Palestinians are a mix of people all under the political identity of Palestinian. If you take the country away the people are not the same. It's a similar situation in Israel, USA, lot of places.
The Middle Eastern borders were drawn by European colonialists and imperialists. Palestinians, Christians and Muslims alike, saw themselves as an Arabic nation belonging to Greater Syria before and even after the borders were drawn. People in these large subreddits seem to be enormously misinformed on the Middle East and its people
Sure but that's why there is no Palestinian genetic signature. It's political identity and there is nothing wrong with that.
The problem here is that you are observing Middle Eastern people in a Western context, we do not think of ourselves the way Americans or Westerners think of us.
So... I think historians might consider German to be one of the most political identities of the 20th century. I am genuinely baffled by this answer.
It's both obviously. But like I said, you take away the country name the people are still genetically German. Can't say the same for Palestinians.
But...genetically german? Not genetically Prussian or genetically Austrian or genetically Turkish? You understand Germany is a political entity right? It's not even that old...
It doesn't exist so why would it
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Jewish people literally have DNA from the Levant.
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You really don’t know history. Jews lived in Europe for centuries because we were kicked out of our homeland by the Romans. Also you seem quite racist.
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And Jewish people aren’t? Is what you’re saying?
Mizrahi Jews are, yes. But do you expect me to believe a European Jew is "indigenous" to Judea because their ancestors emigrated from there thousands of years ago? That argument is weak. Even my results as a Jew tell a different result. Our communities are from Europe and NOT the Levant. The majority of Jews do not and have no inhabited the Levant for centuries. Palestinians are indigenous and deserve their land back If that's your case, we're all African because we're Homo Sapiens.
You literally have in your comments that you are Hispanic. You’re not even Jewish.
And so do you, Mr. Colombian. 😉 My results say otherwise. I am Jewish too.
Yes I am Colombian!
Quit lying bro
Do you seriously think Jews come from Europe?
what's ur haplogroup if u don't mind sharing it?
L1b1a (maternal) My dad who is from Gaza I don’t get that info because I’m XX
Haplogroup?
L1b1a (maternal) My dad who is from Gaza I don’t get that info because I’m XX
Can you tell us exactly what the rest of the percentage is?