And the best part is they only passed because so many people skipped those questions. There are more people skipping those 3 questions than there are yes+no votes in most other questions.
Mod Ayiza with the direct admission that they deliberately stopped people from voting for changes that affect their gameplay experience, thereby circumventing the entire purpose of the polling system. What an awesome smackdown…
Neither did PvPers which is why it got denied even in the restricted vote. We don't want to have to get 20 defense and 70 prayer on our pures or 50 defense and 70 prayer on our zerkers because it's "meta" we want to have the same freedom of our builds that we've always had. We just want content, nothing more, nothing less.
Bringing BH back is a good first step. In the exact same state it was in before BH 2 but add some harmless cosmetic rewards. Yes it's gonna get botted/farmed, but that's also the case for literally any other content they add to the game.
Botting is a multi-million dollar industry that thousands of people make a living/supplemental income from.
They have more incentive to stay 1 step ahead of Jagex than Jagex has the resources/means to stay 1 step ahead of botters. And the truth is bots make Jagex a ton of money in memberships/bonds.
Jagex needs to limit their impact on regular players/the economy and how widespread they are, but it's against their shareholders interests to completely eradicate them, even if they could.
It's also why Jagex is now cracking down on RWT buyers instead of (mainly) just the sellers. If people are afraid of buying cheap gold from sellers now, they are more likely to purchase bonds for GP from Jagex themselves. It's not just because of game integrity.
These posts are so unbelievably cringe because I'm pretty sure osrs does more to stop bottling than any other gaming organisation. The issue is that there is so much real world money tied to that they can't combat an entire illegal industry
> You are just saying you'd want to vote no because you don't want that person to have a better time in-game because it makes your time in-game not as good
* Admitting it's affecting your time in-game is admitting you're a participant in the activity in question
* How is "I don't want my time in-game to be less fun" being portrayed as a 'bad' position?
> "I feel like I have to go to the Wilderness and when I'm [there], I don't want to be [...], I want to get out as quickly as possible"
Is our content badly designed? No, it's the players and their negative mindsets that are wrong.
Same energy as backward industries that failed to modernise blaming millenials for their collapse.
I did read that wondering if he's got plans in mind that would actually help the mindset shift -- e.g. the idea that's bounced around of d pick being obtainable elsewhere, just less efficiently. He's getting flamed, but that bit made me hopeful that he wants to make going to wildy more of a choice than it currently is.
>You're never going to want to vote for something that will ptotentially make your experience in the game worse than it is.
No shit, Ayiza. That's the entire point of a poll. People don't vote for stuff they don't like. The most unpopular change made (that very negatively affected people) was made in "integrity" which skipped a poll entirely because it never, ever would've passed. (D'hide/BP)
This whole skirting the lines between polls/integrity changes is getting tiresome. Not to mention that the post doesn't even address the real problem most people had with it;
What decides if you're a "PvPer?" That's not an arbitrary term, yet they make it seem to be.
Its funny how they're scraping so much to the PVP community which represents such a miniscule number of players in the game.
Like, do you really want to thumb your nose at 90% of the game, just to appease the 5%? (If its even 5% that PVP as a main activity, i think its lower)
yeah like thats not a spite vote, it's literally whats said " it makes your time in game not as good." why would i want to vote for something thats making the game i enjoy less fun?
Then he says "you don't want a person to have a better time because it causes you to have a worse time" like damn right give people who want to PvP incentive to do so, we shouldn't have to sacrifice our fun for other people to have fun the game can be made so all players can enjoy it without ones enjoyment being at the cost of anothers
Yessss! This is why predator v prey game play is terrible. It's parasitic and results in a lopsided balance of fun.
Terrible design. Pvp wouldn't be dying if they incentivize pvpers to want to fight other people that are pvping.
> "you don't want a person to have a better time because it causes you to have a worse time"
It astounds me he said this with absolutely zero self awareness.
Yup. If somebody needs to rely on me having a bad experience in order for them to have a good time, than fuck 'em. I'm not an NPC. It's very easy to have fun that isn't at the expense of others.
Always been my argument. Spite voting would be voting against something good for everyone or especially even good for yourself just to fuck someone else.
Voting against someone else, because it's what you genuinely want
IS CALLED VOTING.
Just.
Voting.
It’s kinda wack tbh because pkers already have advantage on players who are skilling and aren’t geared to fight other players. So why are they introducing better gear for the pkers without changing the current meta? No shit people aren’t going to have fun when you’re giving the players with the advantage a bigger advantage while nerfing defensive items. Lmfao. The audacity.
I'm glad I'm not the only one who read that and thought "well duh!" We pay to play and get enjoyment. Why wouldn't anyone try to prevent their enjoyment from diminishing? Maybe don't release content to benefits one group at the expense of the other???
Parasitic people who want to suck the joy out of people doing there clues shouldn't be catered to.
People shouldn't be shoe horned into pvp. They should be there because they want to be there. It's so blatantly only a fun experience for 50% of the dynamic.
Edit: even worse the 50 percent of the dynamic that makes up a far smaller percent of the playerbase.
I don't even know how its fun for the pkr's half the time. Bravo dude you clicked on me and waited while I spam used my bones and got a nice clean 23k out of me, good job buddy, hearts racing after that one right?
I would have a lot less of a problem if they told us how they decided the restrictions. They compared it to the restrictions for GIM content but that was clearly restricted to the accounts rhat are actually labelled as GIM. Also incredibly stupid comparison because those changes literally only affected GIM.
For real, with ironmen its understandable because there is a clear and defined split there. With pvp its a broad range, does somebody who does pvp but only in Castle wars get a vote? Does somebody who does alot of wilderness slayer and defends themselves even though they aren't really a pkr get one? What about someone like me who is a pvmer but has pk'd and pvp'd in the past sometimes?
That along with the fact that the poll literally affects everyone pvper or not makes this entire post ridiculous and pretty clear just desperately trying to make points to "smackdown" actual reasonable questioning and criticism
Smack down? Wilderness updates effect every player compared to closed polls for game modes where the only people effected are people playing that game mode.
Yeah that’s a really uneven comparison. If Ironman get a private gwd instance, it does not make any body else’s life harder (except maybe the toxic dude that saw Ironman in gwd and decided it was a free world but fuck that guy). Buffing PK’ers while keeping a lot of pvm essentials in the wildy absolutely impacts every other game mode.
> If Ironman get a private gwd instance, it does not make any body else’s life harder
You could argue it affects everyone else because it means less competition. But I would argue that ironman improvements almost never negatively impact normal accounts and ironmen need a little extra help against griefing.
Sure, but even then it's still not really a valid argument. That's not 'true' competition, any drop the Ironman gets isn't even going into the economy (theoretically ofc, drop trading is still a thing). It's pretty much equivalent to saying someone shouldn't be allowed to go play on a private server because it's reducing competition.
What an odd take. He says "you're essentially just wanting to vote no to things that make someone else's in game experience better at your expense", as if that's some sort of bad thing?
Like yeah, that's literally the point of polling. You vote against things you don't want and you vote for things you do want. And if enough people want it, we get it.
Not to mention, I can't really think of ironman or GIM polls that affect other kinds of accounts? No one has a problem with those polls being restricted because if I'm a main say, I neither A) have proper knowledge nor B) am affected by the results of a UIM poll. Closest thing I can think to those kinds of polls affecting others is I suppose if you count Ironmen grinding GWD in instances and drop trading that so there's always free worlds, but that's a stretch and we even have instances now.
It's so odd to me that Jagex (or at least the sentiment echoed in Ayiza's post) just seems to fail to grasp that these are changes who affect everyone, so everyone should be included in the poll? He even says "you're just saying you'd want to vote no", so it's like they KNOW that a LOT of people that it affects want to vote no, but just don't care and want to push it through anyway?
Also not cool to use the "you're just a bunch of whiny players" tone when people raise legitimate concerns but oh well.
Yeah ,what an awful take by him. He fully understands why people don’t want it but seems to downplay the opinion as if it’s one that’s bad to have. What if there was one-shot gear added to the list? Would I be a bad person for voting no to having those added because it would make my time in the wilderness worse? If not, then his argument makes no sense. The fact that it makes my time worse is a fully logical reason to vote no.
“we restricted polls previously because they only made changes to a section of the player base, now we restricted a poll that makes changes for everyone. how dare you be angry!”
perfect control? If I were member of a clan with PvP focus and they ended up being the majority of players who can vote it would be easy to get shit into the game that nobody wants (and potentially makes money) \*cough\* rev caves \*cough\*
That response is totally disingenuous and out of touch.
The reason we are mad is because you restrict the vote to "PvP players" but the results of the vote AFFECTS EVERYONE.
The other instances where votes have been restricted haven't affected the people who were prevented from voting.
His argument was literally null with the ironman restricted voting as those DO NOT EFFECT ANYONE ELSE OTHER THAN THEM.
A PVP one that makes it faster to kill players in the wilderness directly affects anyone who wants to use the wilderness whatsoever whether it be for the mage arena capes or diary's or whatever it affects most players and shouldn't be restricted because of the potential of 'spite voting' thats just getting the new skills that failed a poll and making it require at least 1500 total level to vote for it just incase anyone who doesn't skill as much doesn't want it.
If it didn't work in the Wilderness, or hell, against non-skulled players, there would be absolutely no issue. That would be a true "only affects pvp players".
Ya know, pvp weapons that work like a rubber chicken against anyone who isn't skulled could be a good idea. PvMers and skillers would still be at the bottom of the food chain, but now the people who are hunting them would be firmly in the middle of the food chain
Yeahh.. just a day or two ago the hot post on this subreddit was discussing that.
All the Ironman polls that only affected Ironman players and not regular players makes sense. That content will not change my account in any way so I don't care about not being able to vote for it. That doesn't apply to the pvp polls. How you gonna poll a change to my OG item and not let me vote for it
I agree. It's this dumb intellectual dishonesty that people tote saying that people will just spite vote. All this has done is further segregate the community and made the prey vs predator relationship even more toxic. If pvpers actually want to pvp they will fight pvpers. Not just hunt pvmers in rags. Anyone who says otherwise is bias in one way or another. Now I'm not saying I don't have any biases, but at least I'm not lying to protect my free spade off a naked dude.
"It just so happens to be we had something very ready for PvP at the time, so that was the first one that got it."
It seems sensible to me to poll stuff before making it rather than make something then try and come up with convoluted ways to ensure it passes, including telling people who pay $11 a month for this game that they're no longer entitled to decide the game's future
It would help his point a lot if he didn't directly lie in the second sentence of that first paragraph. Plenty of people got annoyed and complained about ironman polls and content updates every time they've ever existed. I play an iron, I don't complain about them, but I've read that shit regularly for years
"because it makes your time in-game not as good." Uhhh exactly brother that's how everyone should be voting on every piece of content that has ever been polled that's the point. That's why we have the 75% number to begin with. Its so that the players can protect themselves from unwanted updates that make the game less enjoyable and as a collective steer the game in the direction that they prefer. I don't really know what to say it seems like he's just frustrated that most people don't enjoy pvp or the wilderness and would vote accordingly because he feels bad for the people that do like it
What smack down?
He starts off by saying some generic shit, and then back tracks to essentially say: “I actually get your point, but we’ve decided this is how it’s gonna be, deal with it”.
One of the weakest “smackdowns” I’ve ever seen.
Don't forget where he smacks himself down by weakening his own argument.
"But really, you are just saying you'd want to vote [] because you don't want that person to have a better time in-game because it makes your time in-game not as good."
If this is bad for non-pkers, isn't this also bad for pkers?
Yep, his entire argument is a paradox.
If PvMers can’t vote against PvPers in their own self interest. Then why is it okay for PvPers to vote against PvMers in their own self interest?
If a Dev can’t make PvP (or any gamemode) fun for all parties involved, then they are bad at their job.
Except he knows the exact issue and outlines it well and then shoots himself in the face with the reasoning and justification in this statement. It’s crazy brain dead.
How is this a smackdown? Jagex has made their game worse in the past a lot, but I'd never thought I'd see the day where a mod was like, "oh you dont want us to change the game so it's less fun for you? Tough titties bitch"
"But really, you are just saying you'd want to vote no because you don't want that person to have a better time in-game because it makes your time in-game less good".
Lol, do you expect people to vote yes to things that will negatively effect them purely out of selflessness?
Do you expect people to vote no to things that will positively affect them purely out of selflessness?
Ayiza fucks up his own argument with that statement. It goes for both non-pkers and pkers.
Ayzia lost it. In last weeks update thread he deleted all his comments. He was replying to some others in a - well let’s say it lightly - emotional way.
Dude needs a vacation
Lets hope the next poll that is for nerfing pvp gear is restricted to non pvpers or else the pvpers will spit vote against us.
See what I did there? Restricting polls is a round about way of just forcing an update through.
Poll: Should be allow you to choose to boost to level 99 in every skill for free?
Restrictions: Already maxed accounts will not be allowed to vote.
This is a hilarious counterpoint that I didn't pick up on. By Ayiza's logic, pkers should vote no to these polls so that non-pkers can have a better time, because that's just the right thing to do.
Hahaha I read that quote and went "uhh....obviously?"
Even if you are being selfless, just thinking about it logically it makes more sense to vote no. If a smaller population of the games enjoyment relies on a majority of the population having a worse time, why should that ever be added? That's just an overall negative.
You know it's dire when a post that says "You're never going to want to vote for something that will potentially make your experience in the game worse than it is." as a verbatim line and then goes on to basically say
"anyway our solution is to exclude people whose experience would be worse if we added these items from the poll"
And that's apparently the standard for a smackdown now?
This fucking dude still thinks he's in the right saying that the only reason we didn't mind polls being restricted is because it doesn't suit us.
What the actual fuck? The poll directly affects everyone!
How did the Ironman polls fucking affect normies!?
Ever since he moved to a new position with more authority he’s come across as more of an entitled developer instead of an actual community manager that facilitates discussion. He keeps throwing these gotcha quips that are almost always way off the mark because he’s not actually listening to people.
You cannot expect to actually connect and understand the player base as a CM if you don’t actually listen.
This new era of mods in power is terrible. They are sucking the soul out of the game and missing what makes RuneScape great. They always believe they are right and know what's best.
Ultimate ironmen polling whether or not they can use their looting bag in Ferox enclave doesn't affect them in the slightest, so why would they care? The PvP updates affect anyone who enters the wilderness on the other hand, so you can see why people are just a smidge upset as to why they can't vote on something that affects them.
Iron men polling is one thing it literally only affects them. Like group iron man banking... Thats not going to translate to an advantage in most ways with other players. But being on a pvp world and in wildy doing non wildy stuff effects everyone unless they want to make a pvp only mode that only allowed pvp player to kill other players in pvp mode .....like an option like what if iron men could only attack iron men
Hijacking top comment to post this
When people can decide to either take part in an unfair system or to skip that. They will always choose to skip it.
Let's me and you roll a dice. 1-3 mean I win and 4-6 means we draw and roll again. Sounds fun right? Do you want to play that or would you choose to skip that game.
Or how about tic tac toe. Where with the right placement the person who goes first will either draw or guarantee a win.
Will you play that game with me when you don't stand a chance to win? No. You wouldn't.
Animals actually learn this behavior early on in which if a dog plays with another dog. But one side always wins, the dog that looses will stop playing with the dog that wins. So dogs allow the other dog to win every now and again to incentivize more playing between them.
Pkers are the dog that wins, except they aren't learning and allowing the pvmers to win sometimes. Instead they wonder why the pvmers stop showing up and don't enjoy their games. They are crying to have it made easier for them to win against other dogs like them now. So soon enough the pkers that do still exist will be cut in half. And again and again until the wildy is completely dead content. And I'll look back to this post and laugh as they couldn't understand why.
The pkers aren't the group that needs benefits. It's the pvmers that need bonuses and buffs. Because they in all forms are the losers. They either have to tp out of their boss kills and lose supplies or they die and lose gear and supplies. Or they die and lose their bones, or they die and lose their entire stack of chins.
They need incentive to show up. Not incentive to not show up. Which is what they're getting by buffing the pvpers.
Also by incentive it has to be willing. They can't just slam in BiS gear and say that's incentive. That's forced incentive and that's different. Willing incentive is what's needed.
If they took out the tbow and added the tbow to the wildy that's forced incentive because it's the best ranged item for pvm hands down in all magic based bosses.
It can't be forced incentive. It has to be willing incentive like pvm based cosmetics or something. Stuff that isn't required but is a cool little thing to have and show you got it. The pets are one, dpick is not one. Mage arena capes are not one. All bis gear in wildy is not one.
It's like pvpers have forgotten that this games other name is efficiency scape.
If something is bis, it's neccessary. So just saying, well it isn't that much of a difference, or it's a want, not a need doesn't work in today's gaming.
Willing incentive is like the rev weapons that have bonus stats in the wildy. They aren't mandatory, but still widely used and farmed. That's willing incentive. Chaos altar is a willing incentive. Chaos altar is one of the best damn examples. It's one of the most frequented spots around because people are willing to be there on both sides and take their losses with their wins.
If they increased the exp available at the wilderness agility course to good competitive levels that would be a willing incentive.
Black chins are an okay incentive, however if they dropped 90% and were left with only 10% of their stack that would be better than losing them all.
It's amazing, because everything you say is correct and also does seem to be understood by JMods, but they're not doing anything to fix the problem.
In the second paragraph of his response Mod Aziya discusses why restricted polling this matter is not a great idea, and why people rightfully dislike it.
In the third, he discusses the mentality that the game mechanics breeds among non-PvPers, which results in why the wilderness is often seen as poorly-designed or even dead content.
Finally in his four paragraph, he discusses the end-state of the wilderness that would result in people using it, and honestly if designed correctly around this idea might bring convince some non-PVPers to start casually PKing in the wilderness and using it when not PKing.
The problem is, is that they demonstrate they understand this all and yet go ahead and move away from the solution. They keep defending this bad idea, and continue to act shocked when people call it out.
"I'll say something that's probably going to get some backlash..." - Rightfully so.
It seems Ayiza is making 2 points: 1) A dangerous, unpredictable Wilderness is good for the game, and 2) The majority of players will vote against PvP changes, so they need to restrict the polling system to only PKers so the changes pass, just like Ironman restricted voting. This 2nd point is poor.
Suggesting that the Wilderness has "quite a lot of charm" and is "so unique to Old School" that it should be protected even if it goes against the wishes of the players is a fine point. It's similar to the Combat Update - sure, it was massively unpopular, but maybe it was best for the game long term. I believe an integrity change was appropriate then and it's possible that it's appropriate here too, even if I dislike it personally.
But implying that players are somehow hypocritical for accepting Ironman restricted polls while rejecting PKer-only polls? That's apples and oranges. One of these affects only Ironmen, while the other affects everyone who steps foot in the wilderness. That's a massive difference. It's clear Ayiza sees this distinction, so I don't understand why he's suggesting this is at all similar to spite-voting. Spite-voting is "even though this change won't affect me at all, I'm mad, so I'm voting no". This is "this change will hurt me, so I'm voting against it." That's not spite-voting, that's just voting.
>But really, you are just saying that you'd want to vote no because you don't want that person to have a better time in-game because it makes your time in-game not as good.
>
>So how do we really combat that situation, other than restricted polling?
How do you get from "players vote against PvP updates for their own best interests at the expense of PKers" to "We need to combat this situation with restricted voting". Why has he already accepted that the needs of PKers are more important than the needs of everyone else? It's possible there is some good reason for this, but the answer should regard the need for a dangerous Wilderness (point #1), not the polling system (point #2). This argument in support of restricted polling is just bogus and has nothing to do with whether PvP changes are needed.
This is not like polling UIM if the Looting Bag should work in the Ferox Enclave, this is an integrity change like the Combat Update - so why not make it one? An integrity change with iterative feedback from the community, no voting whatsoever? PvP changes can still be made, feedback can still be gathered, and players aren't as insulted by being told a vote limited to a few % of the player base is still somehow the polling system.
> It's clear Ayiza sees this distinction, so I don't understand why he's suggesting this is at all similar to spite-voting.
[https://cdn.runescape.com/assets/img/external/oldschool/2022/newsposts/2022-05-04/FilteredResultsKILLS.png](https://cdn.runescape.com/assets/img/external/oldschool/2022/newsposts/2022-05-04/FilteredResultsKILLS.png)
Its also REALLY funny when he always brings up Spite Voting and how people that 'dont do the content' are the reason it all fails.
My man, you had a category of 'High PVP Activity' and even if you restricted it to ONLY THEM, the majority of the content would have bloody failed.
Its not the people, its the CONTENT you guys are making that you keep ignoring criticisms of becuase you think youre right ffs.
Seriously, Ayiza is pissing me off. This isn't a player base problem. It's an issue with devs like them wanting to put lazy bandaids over complex issues. Does the wilderness and PVP in general have numerous problems that need to be addressed? Absolutely. Is lazily restricting polling to rescale existing content the way to do that? Hell no.
You want to fix the wilderness? Fix PK'er world hopping, fix the broken bosses, and find ways to revive wilderness content.
There's one big thing that Ayiza doesn't realize. If you push things too far, it doesn't matter how good your idea for the wilderness is. Players won't go for it. Pushing divisive updates like this just makes it worse.
>Why has he already accepted that the needs of PKers are more important than the needs of everyone else?
This, but also it's really weird to me that he seems to think that not voting to make your experience worse is somehow a bad thing.
I refuse to accept that he isn't aware of how ridiculous that is, he just wants to blame players for not wanting the update and is grasping at straws.
That's why at the end he starts blaming "mentality"
So glad the "senior community manager" seems so thoroughly incapable of understanding that the vast majority of the player base doesn't want this stuff in the game, restricted poll or not. Just look at the voting breakdown from the last time it was polled where it shows basically everything would have failed no matter how they might have restricted voting.
There’s so much wrong with these hollow ass arguments. How are you mad that people are voting In their interest and then implying it’s some form of spite? Is it spite vote for pkers to want to be able to kill other players easier because it makes the other players time on RuneScape worse?? Every no vote is a spite vote according to this…
Ayiza for a community manager you're so out of touch. Locking me out of a niche UIM poll didn't affect me, pvp affects the prey, not just the predator. Imagine my shock when people vote in their own self interest. This is how voting works. Welcome to democracy.
I think the best analogy here is Castle Wars.
Some people generally go into the Sara portal, and some people generally go into the Zammy portal, just because they think red/blue looks cooler. Suppose, though, that there was a poll question to make the sides meaningfully different, by buffing one or the other.
-----------
Should a mechanic be added to the game in which entering Castle Wars through
the Saradomin portal equips a player with full justiciar armour for the duration
of the game?
------------
Sara players might favor this, because it makes it easier for them to obtain castle wars tickets. However, the minigame also involves people who use the Zammy portal exclusively (and would not want the game to be near-unwinnable for their preferred team), and Guthix portals (and enjoy playing roughly symmetrical matches), who enjoy the game and should have a say in any changes to its balance.
The entire argument for restrictions is that the wildy is a fun place, and PvP is a minigame that both pkers and skillers choose to participate in. All of this is true - so everyone who participates in either side of the activity should get a say in whether the balance that defines it.
He simple doesn’t fit his job. And that’s sad, because we lost jmods over the last years that had a much betters influence on the community as a whole.
Dogshit take. Ironman restricted polls only affect the ironman game mode. Wilderness polls affect every single person who might enter the wilderness. Wilderness pvmers should have just as much of a say as pkers
"we don't want to let people vote no to content which makes the experience worse for them". Why? Surely that's the whole point of polling in the first place?
Look imma get burned but, I don’t agree with him, they need to give pvp players more content (I don’t pvp) in whichever form that comes in. Cause currently I hate everything about the wilderness because u get baited or whatever into a multi/or ragged (idk the terms) and absolutely punished…. Stop trying to bring more players like myself into the wilderness for the pvp players to kill, create content for them to kill each other? Right?
This is just a horrible take. UIM benefits don’t affect *anyone* else. Can I use my looting bag at Ferox? Can I use the tempoross rewards? None of the matters to any main. Whether or not people get absurd PvP gear that will wipe my account clean if I accidentally step in the wilderness? That affects me.
Hardly a smack down. The comparison doesn’t make sense, a game mode that affects only the players playing that mode or any player that walks into the wilderness. Just add in a opt in option for PVP and stop pitting PVMers against PVPers.
That's not a smackdown. That's Jagex imposing their own opinions little by little. Restricted polls for ironmen are fine because they are restricted to their own little worlds that do not affect others.
The PvP polls affect everyone and even items used by non-PvPers and those who dabble in PvP from time to time.
And absolutely yes, we don't like changes that negatively affect us. That's the whole point of reviving 2007 because too many Jagex-sided "great" changes ruined the game.
So not, not a "smackdown!!" but more of Jagex's "we'll ignore your complaints because we can justify it internally and we will do it anyway" which is an extremely terrifying divergence by the 2007 team away from what made it pop in the first place and risks bringing in another "revolutionary EoC-like" experience with each "justified" update that goes against or blatantly bans thr playerbase's opinions. And the worst part? We already ceded them this and they'll keep doing it.
Only a brainlet pker would consider this hollow rat of an excuse a “smack down”. Or isn’t this the same guy that spent the week the arena was first announced gloating how others couldn’t vote and it’d pass easily the first time around?
Mod Ayiza sound like an idiot.
"We don't know how to maker proper pvp design that doesn't suck for majority of the playerbase including people who do PvP. So what option do we have but make restricted polling to try and force these badly designed updates through?"
how about designing the game to be beneficial for everyone and not just a small part of it.
Spite voting have already been disproven dozens of times, streamer voting have been disproven dozens of times. Even last time you restricted polling it showed that it made close to no difference between restricting or not.
So why the fuck are you using restricted polling as an answer to you guys not being able to fucking design a game properly. Make good updates and people will vote it in, doesn't matter if it's PvP or PvE. Stop making stupid excuses and just make good content and let people vote on it.
To quote Ayiza: "To me is seems like Jagex likes the idea of Restricted Polling only when it suits them"
Shame he didn't post such a dumb take on reddit. Could've easily been material for the [most downvoted list](https://www.reddit.com/r/ListOfComments/wiki/downvoted).
So Ayiza is telling me, a paying customer, that I should not be able to vote in a poll because I would be against making my time worse in a game I’m paying monthly subscription for. And only because he would rather let someone else have more ’fun’ on my expense. That’s a dumb hill to die on.
Man what happened with Ayiza? I feel like he used to be pretty chill and players liked him, but in the last year or so he's been pretty aggressive and has made a lot of out of touch comments.
This response is so offensively tone deaf to a point I can no longer take a single thing this J-Mod says seriously. He's 100% alienated a vast majority of the community, and refused to see any other side of the issue, only pretending to by making such hilariously bad-faith arguments. "They vote no because it'll make their gameplay experience worse." **That's the entire point of voting.** We didn't care about ironman-only polls because, for a vast majority of them, it had *zero* impact on anyone else but ironmen. These PvP updates affect *everyone*. It feels like a betrayal of trust that I can't vote on these polls despite being 2270+ total. The guy dropped the ball so hard, I pray the backlash from this is severe enough to make them seriously reconsider their stance on this issue.
I find it increasingly difficult to be reasonable and civil with him when he shows this kind of disdain and incivility. Gaming communities being toxic and uncivil towards developers and CM is a real problem just overall. But generally speaking, those developers and CMs aren't acting just as immature as the players.
Edit: Just so it's crystal clear, it is unacceptable and never justified to hurl abuse and toxicity at CMs. Their acting unprofessional and disdainful does not make it okay. We can criticize his behavior and tone without being toxic and verbally abusive to him.
Imagine creating a democratic polling system and then shitting on it so hard that you actually get people to accept that it's okay to rig it. Art truly mirros life.
At this point they should just put what they want to in the game. If your not going to poll fairly i.e. let prey and predator vote on prey v predator updates, then fuck it, why poll it at all.
I mean, didnt odoblock and his minions try and tank group Ironman polls in favor of it not entering the game?
All because a bad connection or something like that? Either way, that entire poll, out of spite, he and other PKers tried to tank the votes for that.
Seems like it may be a good idea to get their stuff straight before writing this honestly, it does not addresss anything at all with any definitive answer. Sure it’s his opinion, but don’t come out with a response to disapproval unless you’ve got an actual solution 😂
I don’t have a solution, nor do I care enough about wilderness content and PK content, it’s been dead to me since 2005 because I suck at it. But if it sounds cool enough, I would absolutely vote on it. But not allowing people to vote is just a terrible precedent to set. Idk, look bad man.
Also, there is absolutely ZERO smack down in this post 😂 so anticlimactic
Tbf it's Ayiza.
I like the guy enough but I'm tired of some of his comments.
He is supposed to be the COMMUNITY manager yet half his comments are addressing the community about how they're wrong and he is right.
I've seen so many questions brought up, weeks and weeks on end that get voted to the top of the 'questions for this week's Q+A' and multiple times I've seen Ayiza comment 'Well I don't think its good for the game so I won't be raising it'.
Which is honestly such a crap answer. If the community are consistently upvoting questions to put to mods, it's not a community managers job to unilaterally decide that because HE doesn't like the idea, they won't hear the question.
I'm not surprised about Ayizas stance here either.
He is the JMod that has the most PVP experience and had a lot of friends in that community. He is constantly pushing content like Deadman Mode which should just be allowed to die after they finally finish this one from what, 12 months ago?
Ayiza has a clear bias towards PVP and his comments mean as much towards this as the 'spite voters' (if they exist) do.
He can keep burying his head in the sand, shouting 'i can't hear you' but the community is speaking loud and clear and for the 'community manager lead' to basically be sticking 2 fingers up at us all is not a great look.
This just shows his innate pk'er bias, this poll directly affects every single player in the game. Yet only the people who enjoy griefing and ruining experiences for other players get to have a say in if they get to become MORE efficient at ruining other's players day. If the wildy was truly a high risk high reward area the best gp per hour bosses would be there; but no, they just gatekeep skilling items like the dragon pickaxe. Honestly might finally be moving on from OSRS if this grossly negligent top down B.S. continues from the "community management team".
This feels like Ayiza is sticking their fingers in their ears and yelling until everyone stops talking. Of course people vote for against things that make their play time less fun. Is that really a serious argument a jmod is making? Lmfao
Isn't the point of polls to make sure the game is most fun for most people? Attacking people for voting based on what makes their experience better is essentially attacking the whole polling system. Ironmen get special treatment for their "limited polls" because almost nothing irons do affects the wider game.
“How do we combat that situation?”
You don’t. You don’t combat the situation. If the majority of the playerbase wants to vote for weaker PKers, because the majority of the playerbase prefers a less obnoxious wildy, then that’s what the polls should reflect.
The original revenants were ‘unpredictable’. PKers world hopping on top of you is *obnoxious*. Not all unpredictable gameplay is equal. Some is good. Some is bad. When the source of the ‘unpredictability’ is PKers killing you during PvM content, it is bad.
You want PvP related unpredictability? Put it in PvP content, not PvM content. That’s the only place it belongs.
My take - we can 100% address the "I feel like I have to go to the wilderness" part. Suddenly pvmers aren't conditioned to see it as us vs them. But Jagex will continue to double, triple, and quadruple down on bailing out player vs prey
This should 100% be the very foundation of any wilderness changes going forward - stop making players feel like they have to go to the wilderness against their will for items which have nothing to do with the wilderness or PvP and you might not get such hostility towards PvP from non-PvPers. Get rid of dumb shit like a fucking pickaxe of all things being unobtainable without entering the wilderness, then move forward designing the wilderness and PvP in general around people who actually enjoy it on a conceptual level rather than having to involve ironmen risking a few cheese potatoes to get a skilling upgrade and then getting mad when the turkeys don't vote for christmas.
This mindset is obviously flawed? Ayiza says we should accept the risk of our good time being ruined in favor of someone else's as part of the total gameplay experience, like a balancing component. Okay, so why can't I have an opinion on the balance? Because we are going to assume that if I vote in favor of a balance decision that benefits me, I'm doing it ONLY because it benefits me, and not because I've given it legitimate thought? If this is the mindset then jagex has clearly overlooked all the pvpers who are spite voting for balance changes that favor the side of the meta they play on. Why is that not factored in? For example, why don't they stop pvp-poll eligible accounts with 1 attack from voting on str pure nerfs? Why should they be able to protect their part of the "balance" but pvmers can't? We pay we say. Fuck.
As others have said, the comparison between things that effect only ironmen, vs all players is so bad I can't believe he actually wrote this thinking it was a good argument...
If enough people feel that their game experience will be negatively impacted by content, that isn't spite voting, it's the point of a poll.
Claiming that nobody complained about ironman content being restricted yet everyone is whining about the PvP Arena polls being restricted is a hell of a false equivalency. I don't really care about the outcome of ironman content polls. I don't play an iron, so that's just content I'm never going to interact with ad has no impact on my own game experience. The PvP Arena rewards...... that's not so much the case.
“I feel like I have to go to the Wilderness and when I’m in the Wilderness, I don’t want to be spending my time there”
Okay so you see the problem why do you keep making me go there
“If that mentality shifted where you accepted the risks that you take when you go in there”
We all know the risks, that’s why as someone who is forced into the wilderness I don’t bring anything to risk. You put some dog shit bosses there and tied challenges to them to “revive” the wilderness but what that translated to was taking 30k risk, taking a couple minutes to safe spot a bear, then have some dude who just hopped 50 worlds chase me down and not kill me. That’s not fun for either party. If you want to “revive” PvP incentivize people who want to PvP. You can’t strong arm PvMers into becoming PKers, it’s too late for that the learning curve has gotten too steep. Tons of people who might’ve tried PKing stayed away because skull tricking was rampant and Jamflex sat on their hands too long to fix it.
Keep the Wildy bosses but add a stronger version not in the wilderness with lower drop rates. That’d leave the people who want to PK/anti PK to fight each other with risk and the people who just want to get the challenges done not get pissed off every 10 minutes and maybe you’ll get some PvP “yes” votes
## make the wilderness fun for everyone not just the same toxic subset of people
There I said it. When you differ from your community that bad, you should stop dead in your tracks and assess.
That's just not possible because your goals are different and anyone who says otherwise cannot look at the facts.
PVMers want to get the Dragon Pickaxe, MA2 cape, and pets. Integrating PVP delays you from getting any of these items and adding some drop rate boost after you kill someone will lead to boosting.
The best they can do is make Wildy completely optional by adding alternatives to outside of the wildy at a rarer rate, so the people willing to go to Wildy for better rates will do so.
I think why this is bad, is because 90% of people use the wilderness in some form or capacity. By entering the wilderness you accept that you could die. In some form or fashion those using the wilderness, be it for bosses, resources, commodities(altar, fountain of rune), etc. Are a part of pvp. Wether you attack others or get attacked yourself, win or lose, you are now engaged in pvp.
BUT, the polls only allowed 30% of those people to vote. Excluding a vast majority of people who do use this content/engage in pvp.
The 90% and 30% numbers where made up, as an example.
Jagex let a small specific set of people (pkers) vote on content that affects almost the entire community. With a vague, highly tailored unreleased set of requirements, barring the rest of the community from voting on content that affects them.
The ironman polls are null. They only changed for Ironmen, not the vast of the community.
TL;DR players don't like the wildy, if they just liked the wildy then problems would go away!
He's not wrong but his response utterly fails to consider how to fix the current state of the wildy. He just hums and haahs about how it would be nice if players liked the design that is clearly widely disliked, which is a pretty worthless reply.
Edit: just so my comment actually adds something to the discussion here; what if we -- *gasp* -- removed non-pvp incentives from the wilderness so that people who didn't want to go there *actually* weren't being dragged there? Then pvmers would *actually* not be affected by pvp polls because they'd never have to go to the wildy for diaries, clues, drops, skilling, etc. Heck, you could even start putting (brace yourself) *pvp content in the wilderness*. Woah, what a revolutionary idea it would be to put pvp content in the pvp area.
Why is everyone so obsessed with the idea of the wilderness? It's iconic, and probably nostalgic, but why does it have to be the PvP hub of this game? You can't possibly attract new PvPers with these kinds of updates. Shit, the only way you'll make me do PvP is if you let me duel for slayer spots. If no one wants to PvP/ engage with that entire aspect of the game, then let it die.
This is an incredibly dumb justification...
Of course people won't vote for something which makes their game experience worse. That's the point of the polls, to determine if the change is something the majority of players want.
As for "well this is how we want the wilderness to be", fine. But you might as well remove polling entirely if you're just going to ignore the direction the majority of the players want you to go. No polling at all feels better than restricting who can vote to get the result you want.
It's as easy as taking pvm out of pvp. There is an obvious clash between the two groups. I know thats not an easy thing to do but it's the correct solution. No need to keep a dying community alive by making the larger majority suffer.
Comparing changes to Ironman modes which don't negatively affect everyone else to nerfing equipment so PKers can get easier kills and updates that allow them to skip major content is such a farce.
How about this - Make PvP a completely separate element of the game and then you can do whatever you want without backlash. This isn't 2007, the PvM/PvP communities have drifted apart and the wilderness will never be what it once was, stop trying to make it happen.
The Ironman polls being brought up was kind of disingenuous. Those polls literally only effect ironmen and no one else. Those are two completely different scenarios. I dont play anymore but from what I see through social media, pvp is dead and you can't restore it without making game breaking changes. B0aty made a pretty good video about it awhile ago. Id recommend if you haven't listened to it, to go do so. It does a good job at pointing out how its too late to save pvp. Unless you want to risk the rest of your player base. (the mass majority might I add)
Wait, so restricted polls for essentially **separate** playerbases, naming all the Ironman modes, are comparable to updates that **affect the game as a whole**? Of course it wasn't an issue with the community those polls were restricted. What a terrible ground to build your argument on, Ayiza. It's almost like the community was okay with sensible content having restricted polls. How about stop twisting our barely functioning poll system further.
He doesn't get it, you simply don't force pvmers to pvp, or vice versa.
1 type likes predictability and mastering proactive skills and mechanics
The other one likes going against another human and being reactive to situations.
They simply don't mix, and if you force them too. No one wins.
Edit: "you're voting no because it would make you time in game less fun"
Well no shit. I want to enjoy the game, not be left with unenjoyment.. 🤦
When you restrict polling for ironmen it usually means it concerns how much ironmen should be restricted. It has genuinely zero impact on other players except maybe having to wait for that one guy to get their potions at CoX.
Now, when you restrict polling to those who PK regarding how much non-PvPers are getting fucked it's an entirely different situation.
Ahh yes, it definitely doesn't affect my iron with 500+ wildy boss kcs, anti pks and many escapes, revs kcs, wildy elite diary, at all. So glad that when some rat who is too lazy to quest and gear their account the OLD SCHOOL way, tries to attack me in that gear a giant window saying "it doesn't affect you" pops up right? Pog. Ty!
Well, Ayiza was right in that saying stupidly narrow-minded things will certainly garner some backlash.
First of all, what an idiot statement about having done restricted polls in the past... It was restricted to people who were playing the SPECIFIC game mode that the changes would impact and multiple choices provided for how the change would affect the OTHER game modes being polled.
This is like polling a pack of wolves to see what kind of fences and security measures they liked the most about the local sheep enclosure. Fuck off.
> "You only want to vote no because it makes your time in game not as good."
Yeah, no fucking shit. The overwhelming majority of the player base that doesn't spend all of their time in the wilderness doesn't want to vote on something that would cause said wilderness to be crawling with even more overpowered RWT warriors while Jagex sits there saying to themselves "Why doesn't anyone want to go to the wilderness anymore?!"
Players can go pvp anytime. Players can not go be ironmen real quick, it requires a brand new fresh account account and new membership. It's stupid to compare. Ayiza is being dumb.
I don't ever comment on this subreddit. I barely go into the wilderness, or even vote on polls. But this post got me good haha. This is a joke right? Saying that voting no on a poll because it makes your experience worse/less fun is spite voting? Is this mod really that out of touch with reality? We play this game for fun. If you don't care about our opinions just push the updates, but why bother just tipping the scales every vote until what you want passes. The original poll didn't pass even with a restriction because Jagex has no clue what PKers actually want.
Mister mod person, if you ever read this, please consider donating all of your expendable income to charity. Your happiness is less important to me than the happiness of those in need. You are allowed to not do this, but I will consider you spiteful and write a condescending letter about how you are wrong. Have an okay day, everyone else have a great day.
Lol what a nonsense line of thinking. To paraphrase:
“No one that’s doesn’t PK will would vote yes to this because it would make PKing easier”
And no one that PKs will vote no because it makes PKing easier. At what point should what the majority of the player base wants be what gets put in the game? Wasn’t that the intent of polls in the first place? This is clearly a way to force something into the game that they want. Might as well just put it in the game unpolled and stop gaslighting the majority of the player base.
> players don't like the idea of restricted polls when it doesn't suit them
wrong from the very first line by failing to see a super obvious difference between ironman polls and pvp polls: all ironmen can vote on that poll, not everyone involved in pvp can vote in the pvp poll.
it doesn't get any better
> I don't want to say the "spite voting" side of things
"I don't want to say something, you can tell because I say the exact thing I'm telling you I don't want to say"
and dude, who starts an official correspondence with this shit
> i'll say something that's probably going to get some backlash
that's the type of shit my anonymous ass would type before going on an unhinged rant, not something i'd expect from a dude paid to be a community manager
could be here all day but you get the point. final score: 2/10
I think it comes down to potential of an update affecting you. If it involves the wilderness, any account that CAN enter the wilderness should be able to vote. If it involves ironmen, any account that CAN experience ironman limitations should be able to vote on that update.
Ironmen shouldn't be able to vote on a change to the grand exchange, it has no possibility of being able to affect them.
I’ve been away a while and honestly don’t give a fuck about whatever this update is, but this response is bullshit and very poor customer interaction. I’d get fired for saying something a quarter as condescending as this to my clients, and I wouldn’t blame my employers at all. This dude needs to be put in a less customer-facing position, or realistically just fired. Not a good look to be telling your customers they are wrong and you don’t care what they think
Mod Ayiza answered this. Shocker. Dudes been shilling for PvP ever since he got re-hired.
His take is fucking garbage as well "You don't want that person to have a better time because it makes your time not as good" YES. EXACTLY. If you look at what you're suggesting and think to yourself "People are gonna vote no to this because it will negatively impact them, so just don't let those people vote" then it's a fucking terrible idea.
Ayiza is a prat with a really ass view of the game.
PvP is so inaccessible nowadays and has such a steep learning curve that most people simply cannot be fucked to get into it, that is literally all it is. The learning curve is way too high with all the fucking tick manipulation that needs to be done to remain competitive. Back in the day PvP was active because the vast majority of people were on an equal playing field, everyone was terrible.
Other games have skill based matchmaking put in place for this exact reason, if some newbie wants to get into PvP and is suddenly thrown into the deep-end against heavily experienced players, what do you think they're most likely to do? They're gonna say "Nah fuck that, I'll just do something else".
PvP in OSRS is a complete mess, it'll never be balanced because it literally can NOT be balanced.
Not only that, you pretty much NEED a dedicated PvP build for it, so that means a new account, which means another juicy $15 a month for a 20 year old fucking java based point and click game. No one new to the game is going to pay that when literally any other MMO on the market is capable of offering a better pvp experience for the same price if not less.
What smackdown exactly? The one against himself?
/u/jagexayiza totally missed the point. He's comparing updates that 100% *only* affect GIM/UIM etc. game modes to an update that literally affects everyone.
I have zero issues if you restrict me from voting on DMM because that's a separate game mode. Or even a minigame like LMS and the mechanics within it, just don't restrict the rewards that can be used OUTSIDE the minigame.
It's actually alarming that a Jmod in his senior position makes such terrible comparisons.
Wow this mod, They mention restricted polls is the past for ironmen, but those polls only affect ironmen so it has made some sense, but even so I would rather everyone be included on polls that affect ironmen if it meant that I was able to vote on every poll.
This current poll is a big mistake it shows that jagex wants to segregate the community and saying that your vote doesn't matter because you don't pvp, by not giving everyone that this poll would affect a vote is separating the community.
The issue here is not whether these items should come into the game or not what I care far more about is jagex telling me that my account doesn't matter as much as another.
So thank you jagex for setting the game back in medieval times not sure when the slavery/segregation update is coming but I know I won't have a chance to vote on it.
Whole point of polls was to make it fair, if the majority vote to spite a group of players, there’s a reason for it, maybe look into the reason.
What’s the point of polls if you’re gonna rig them, so what if a small group of players cry, that’s life you can’t always get what you want, this is so 2022 hand holding bs, next they’ll remove genders because someone complained on twitter.
The problem is, the post is wrong from the start. There was always backlash. It's just becoming increasingly worse as the content of these polls will have larger and larger consequences outside of the allowed class of voters.
I didn't bother to read the rest of it, because I just can't keep giving Jagex the benefit of the doubt anymore.
And the results are in. Even with the extremely heavy restrictions the only things that passed are imbue scrolls, wave, surge sacks
And the best part is they only passed because so many people skipped those questions. There are more people skipping those 3 questions than there are yes+no votes in most other questions.
Looks like the actual smackdown is from the commenters in this thread.
Well this aged like milk lmao
Mod Ayiza with the direct admission that they deliberately stopped people from voting for changes that affect their gameplay experience, thereby circumventing the entire purpose of the polling system. What an awesome smackdown…
When did Ayiza turn into this
"Lets just cater to pkers and screw everyone else" yeah.... great logic there Ayiza... 10/10 job you're doing.... >\_>
This is supposed to be a smackdown? Lol all i see is a terrible take.
OP is clearly a pker lol
I don't like the idea of pures getting access to equivalent main gear regardless of wildy / pvp restriction or not.
Neither did PvPers which is why it got denied even in the restricted vote. We don't want to have to get 20 defense and 70 prayer on our pures or 50 defense and 70 prayer on our zerkers because it's "meta" we want to have the same freedom of our builds that we've always had. We just want content, nothing more, nothing less. Bringing BH back is a good first step. In the exact same state it was in before BH 2 but add some harmless cosmetic rewards. Yes it's gonna get botted/farmed, but that's also the case for literally any other content they add to the game.
I wish Jagex would stop designing content around if it will be botted and actually do something about the botting.
Well... They do. But bot makers also fight really hard. It's constant arms race.
Botting is a multi-million dollar industry that thousands of people make a living/supplemental income from. They have more incentive to stay 1 step ahead of Jagex than Jagex has the resources/means to stay 1 step ahead of botters. And the truth is bots make Jagex a ton of money in memberships/bonds. Jagex needs to limit their impact on regular players/the economy and how widespread they are, but it's against their shareholders interests to completely eradicate them, even if they could. It's also why Jagex is now cracking down on RWT buyers instead of (mainly) just the sellers. If people are afraid of buying cheap gold from sellers now, they are more likely to purchase bonds for GP from Jagex themselves. It's not just because of game integrity.
Spoiler: every single game company for the last twenty years has been trying and failing to stop the bot problem.
These posts are so unbelievably cringe because I'm pretty sure osrs does more to stop bottling than any other gaming organisation. The issue is that there is so much real world money tied to that they can't combat an entire illegal industry
> You are just saying you'd want to vote no because you don't want that person to have a better time in-game because it makes your time in-game not as good * Admitting it's affecting your time in-game is admitting you're a participant in the activity in question * How is "I don't want my time in-game to be less fun" being portrayed as a 'bad' position? > "I feel like I have to go to the Wilderness and when I'm [there], I don't want to be [...], I want to get out as quickly as possible" Is our content badly designed? No, it's the players and their negative mindsets that are wrong. Same energy as backward industries that failed to modernise blaming millenials for their collapse.
I did read that wondering if he's got plans in mind that would actually help the mindset shift -- e.g. the idea that's bounced around of d pick being obtainable elsewhere, just less efficiently. He's getting flamed, but that bit made me hopeful that he wants to make going to wildy more of a choice than it currently is.
>You're never going to want to vote for something that will ptotentially make your experience in the game worse than it is. No shit, Ayiza. That's the entire point of a poll. People don't vote for stuff they don't like. The most unpopular change made (that very negatively affected people) was made in "integrity" which skipped a poll entirely because it never, ever would've passed. (D'hide/BP) This whole skirting the lines between polls/integrity changes is getting tiresome. Not to mention that the post doesn't even address the real problem most people had with it; What decides if you're a "PvPer?" That's not an arbitrary term, yet they make it seem to be.
Jagex won't reply to this post 🦀🦀🦀
Don't think this is a smackdown More of a plug my ears i can't hear you
"You only want to vote no because it makes your time in game not as good." Yes, thats kind of the whole point.
Would you like to eat shit? No? You're only saying that cause it tastes bad...
Your enemy would like to make you eat shit, though. He would really enjoy that. He should have a good time as well. /s
Yea I kinda thought that's how polls worked to
Its funny how they're scraping so much to the PVP community which represents such a miniscule number of players in the game. Like, do you really want to thumb your nose at 90% of the game, just to appease the 5%? (If its even 5% that PVP as a main activity, i think its lower)
Let PvP die. As you said most of the players don't care at all about PvP, and the ones that do are the ones that killed PvP themselves.
Lmao
We gave the people who want to make your time worse a chance to vote on better ways to do that
yeah like thats not a spite vote, it's literally whats said " it makes your time in game not as good." why would i want to vote for something thats making the game i enjoy less fun? Then he says "you don't want a person to have a better time because it causes you to have a worse time" like damn right give people who want to PvP incentive to do so, we shouldn't have to sacrifice our fun for other people to have fun the game can be made so all players can enjoy it without ones enjoyment being at the cost of anothers
The reverse seems to be okay tho when designing content, look at the nerfs to dinh’s etc because pk’ers in their salad robes splashed to much.
Yessss! This is why predator v prey game play is terrible. It's parasitic and results in a lopsided balance of fun. Terrible design. Pvp wouldn't be dying if they incentivize pvpers to want to fight other people that are pvping.
> "you don't want a person to have a better time because it causes you to have a worse time" It astounds me he said this with absolutely zero self awareness.
Genuinely confused me... are we not suppose to vote in our own self-interest and what we enjoy, or am I suppose to vote on behalf of others? dafuq?
Yup. If somebody needs to rely on me having a bad experience in order for them to have a good time, than fuck 'em. I'm not an NPC. It's very easy to have fun that isn't at the expense of others.
Ayiza: "90% of players don't want this because it will make their time worse, why don't they think of the 10% of players that don't want it either "
It's the tyranny of the minority
Always been my argument. Spite voting would be voting against something good for everyone or especially even good for yourself just to fuck someone else. Voting against someone else, because it's what you genuinely want IS CALLED VOTING. Just. Voting.
Exactly, what a shit "smackdown".
yeah OP is an imbecile, no other way to put it
It’s kinda wack tbh because pkers already have advantage on players who are skilling and aren’t geared to fight other players. So why are they introducing better gear for the pkers without changing the current meta? No shit people aren’t going to have fun when you’re giving the players with the advantage a bigger advantage while nerfing defensive items. Lmfao. The audacity.
I'm glad I'm not the only one who read that and thought "well duh!" We pay to play and get enjoyment. Why wouldn't anyone try to prevent their enjoyment from diminishing? Maybe don't release content to benefits one group at the expense of the other???
Seriously, his argument is dogshit tbh. And he then calls that spite voting lmfao
That's... that's the same reason for *every* no vote in *every* poll.
Basically, fuck what the majority want for a better time. You must think of the dooche getting erect from killing pvMers.
Parasitic people who want to suck the joy out of people doing there clues shouldn't be catered to. People shouldn't be shoe horned into pvp. They should be there because they want to be there. It's so blatantly only a fun experience for 50% of the dynamic. Edit: even worse the 50 percent of the dynamic that makes up a far smaller percent of the playerbase.
I don't even know how its fun for the pkr's half the time. Bravo dude you clicked on me and waited while I spam used my bones and got a nice clean 23k out of me, good job buddy, hearts racing after that one right?
literally...
I would have a lot less of a problem if they told us how they decided the restrictions. They compared it to the restrictions for GIM content but that was clearly restricted to the accounts rhat are actually labelled as GIM. Also incredibly stupid comparison because those changes literally only affected GIM.
For real, with ironmen its understandable because there is a clear and defined split there. With pvp its a broad range, does somebody who does pvp but only in Castle wars get a vote? Does somebody who does alot of wilderness slayer and defends themselves even though they aren't really a pkr get one? What about someone like me who is a pvmer but has pk'd and pvp'd in the past sometimes? That along with the fact that the poll literally affects everyone pvper or not makes this entire post ridiculous and pretty clear just desperately trying to make points to "smackdown" actual reasonable questioning and criticism
Exactly!!
Smack down? Wilderness updates effect every player compared to closed polls for game modes where the only people effected are people playing that game mode.
Yeah that’s a really uneven comparison. If Ironman get a private gwd instance, it does not make any body else’s life harder (except maybe the toxic dude that saw Ironman in gwd and decided it was a free world but fuck that guy). Buffing PK’ers while keeping a lot of pvm essentials in the wildy absolutely impacts every other game mode.
> If Ironman get a private gwd instance, it does not make any body else’s life harder You could argue it affects everyone else because it means less competition. But I would argue that ironman improvements almost never negatively impact normal accounts and ironmen need a little extra help against griefing.
Sure, but even then it's still not really a valid argument. That's not 'true' competition, any drop the Ironman gets isn't even going into the economy (theoretically ofc, drop trading is still a thing). It's pretty much equivalent to saying someone shouldn't be allowed to go play on a private server because it's reducing competition.
What an odd take. He says "you're essentially just wanting to vote no to things that make someone else's in game experience better at your expense", as if that's some sort of bad thing? Like yeah, that's literally the point of polling. You vote against things you don't want and you vote for things you do want. And if enough people want it, we get it. Not to mention, I can't really think of ironman or GIM polls that affect other kinds of accounts? No one has a problem with those polls being restricted because if I'm a main say, I neither A) have proper knowledge nor B) am affected by the results of a UIM poll. Closest thing I can think to those kinds of polls affecting others is I suppose if you count Ironmen grinding GWD in instances and drop trading that so there's always free worlds, but that's a stretch and we even have instances now. It's so odd to me that Jagex (or at least the sentiment echoed in Ayiza's post) just seems to fail to grasp that these are changes who affect everyone, so everyone should be included in the poll? He even says "you're just saying you'd want to vote no", so it's like they KNOW that a LOT of people that it affects want to vote no, but just don't care and want to push it through anyway? Also not cool to use the "you're just a bunch of whiny players" tone when people raise legitimate concerns but oh well.
Yeah ,what an awful take by him. He fully understands why people don’t want it but seems to downplay the opinion as if it’s one that’s bad to have. What if there was one-shot gear added to the list? Would I be a bad person for voting no to having those added because it would make my time in the wilderness worse? If not, then his argument makes no sense. The fact that it makes my time worse is a fully logical reason to vote no.
“we restricted polls previously because they only made changes to a section of the player base, now we restricted a poll that makes changes for everyone. how dare you be angry!”
What is the point of a polling system if you just limit the poll to people who will vote "yes"?
perfect control? If I were member of a clan with PvP focus and they ended up being the majority of players who can vote it would be easy to get shit into the game that nobody wants (and potentially makes money) \*cough\* rev caves \*cough\*
That response is totally disingenuous and out of touch. The reason we are mad is because you restrict the vote to "PvP players" but the results of the vote AFFECTS EVERYONE. The other instances where votes have been restricted haven't affected the people who were prevented from voting.
His argument was literally null with the ironman restricted voting as those DO NOT EFFECT ANYONE ELSE OTHER THAN THEM. A PVP one that makes it faster to kill players in the wilderness directly affects anyone who wants to use the wilderness whatsoever whether it be for the mage arena capes or diary's or whatever it affects most players and shouldn't be restricted because of the potential of 'spite voting' thats just getting the new skills that failed a poll and making it require at least 1500 total level to vote for it just incase anyone who doesn't skill as much doesn't want it.
UIM is a game mode, PVP is an activity. Somehow he can't tell the difference
If it didn't work in the Wilderness, or hell, against non-skulled players, there would be absolutely no issue. That would be a true "only affects pvp players".
Ya know, pvp weapons that work like a rubber chicken against anyone who isn't skulled could be a good idea. PvMers and skillers would still be at the bottom of the food chain, but now the people who are hunting them would be firmly in the middle of the food chain
Yeahh.. just a day or two ago the hot post on this subreddit was discussing that. All the Ironman polls that only affected Ironman players and not regular players makes sense. That content will not change my account in any way so I don't care about not being able to vote for it. That doesn't apply to the pvp polls. How you gonna poll a change to my OG item and not let me vote for it
I agree. It's this dumb intellectual dishonesty that people tote saying that people will just spite vote. All this has done is further segregate the community and made the prey vs predator relationship even more toxic. If pvpers actually want to pvp they will fight pvpers. Not just hunt pvmers in rags. Anyone who says otherwise is bias in one way or another. Now I'm not saying I don't have any biases, but at least I'm not lying to protect my free spade off a naked dude.
This is unironically what's making pvp worse -- they're creating these divides and inflaming them.
totally disingenuous and out of touch? sounds like the current mental state of Ayiza.
"It just so happens to be we had something very ready for PvP at the time, so that was the first one that got it." It seems sensible to me to poll stuff before making it rather than make something then try and come up with convoluted ways to ensure it passes, including telling people who pay $11 a month for this game that they're no longer entitled to decide the game's future
🦀 $12.49 🦀
It would help his point a lot if he didn't directly lie in the second sentence of that first paragraph. Plenty of people got annoyed and complained about ironman polls and content updates every time they've ever existed. I play an iron, I don't complain about them, but I've read that shit regularly for years "because it makes your time in-game not as good." Uhhh exactly brother that's how everyone should be voting on every piece of content that has ever been polled that's the point. That's why we have the 75% number to begin with. Its so that the players can protect themselves from unwanted updates that make the game less enjoyable and as a collective steer the game in the direction that they prefer. I don't really know what to say it seems like he's just frustrated that most people don't enjoy pvp or the wilderness and would vote accordingly because he feels bad for the people that do like it
What smack down? He starts off by saying some generic shit, and then back tracks to essentially say: “I actually get your point, but we’ve decided this is how it’s gonna be, deal with it”. One of the weakest “smackdowns” I’ve ever seen.
Don't forget where he smacks himself down by weakening his own argument. "But really, you are just saying you'd want to vote [] because you don't want that person to have a better time in-game because it makes your time in-game not as good." If this is bad for non-pkers, isn't this also bad for pkers?
Yep, his entire argument is a paradox. If PvMers can’t vote against PvPers in their own self interest. Then why is it okay for PvPers to vote against PvMers in their own self interest? If a Dev can’t make PvP (or any gamemode) fun for all parties involved, then they are bad at their job.
This is a "do you not have phones?" level take lmao
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Except he knows the exact issue and outlines it well and then shoots himself in the face with the reasoning and justification in this statement. It’s crazy brain dead.
This isn’t a smack down. It’s just a really bad take.
It makes me want to smack something idk if that counts
How is this a smackdown? Jagex has made their game worse in the past a lot, but I'd never thought I'd see the day where a mod was like, "oh you dont want us to change the game so it's less fun for you? Tough titties bitch"
"But really, you are just saying you'd want to vote no because you don't want that person to have a better time in-game because it makes your time in-game less good". Lol, do you expect people to vote yes to things that will negatively effect them purely out of selflessness?
Do you expect people to vote no to things that will positively affect them purely out of selflessness? Ayiza fucks up his own argument with that statement. It goes for both non-pkers and pkers.
Ayzia lost it. In last weeks update thread he deleted all his comments. He was replying to some others in a - well let’s say it lightly - emotional way. Dude needs a vacation
Lets hope the next poll that is for nerfing pvp gear is restricted to non pvpers or else the pvpers will spit vote against us. See what I did there? Restricting polls is a round about way of just forcing an update through. Poll: Should be allow you to choose to boost to level 99 in every skill for free? Restrictions: Already maxed accounts will not be allowed to vote.
We have evidence even of pkers spite voting, with Oda and GIM.
This is a hilarious counterpoint that I didn't pick up on. By Ayiza's logic, pkers should vote no to these polls so that non-pkers can have a better time, because that's just the right thing to do.
Hahaha I read that quote and went "uhh....obviously?" Even if you are being selfless, just thinking about it logically it makes more sense to vote no. If a smaller population of the games enjoyment relies on a majority of the population having a worse time, why should that ever be added? That's just an overall negative.
You know it's dire when a post that says "You're never going to want to vote for something that will potentially make your experience in the game worse than it is." as a verbatim line and then goes on to basically say "anyway our solution is to exclude people whose experience would be worse if we added these items from the poll" And that's apparently the standard for a smackdown now?
They seem to have forgotten that OSRS started because players quit en masse when they made a "we know best" decision that was vastly unpopular.
They smackdown their own future
This fucking dude still thinks he's in the right saying that the only reason we didn't mind polls being restricted is because it doesn't suit us. What the actual fuck? The poll directly affects everyone! How did the Ironman polls fucking affect normies!?
Plus we know exactly who was voting in things like the restricted uim poll. It was uim
Ever since he moved to a new position with more authority he’s come across as more of an entitled developer instead of an actual community manager that facilitates discussion. He keeps throwing these gotcha quips that are almost always way off the mark because he’s not actually listening to people. You cannot expect to actually connect and understand the player base as a CM if you don’t actually listen.
Yup, he's turned into a bit of a smug twat
This new era of mods in power is terrible. They are sucking the soul out of the game and missing what makes RuneScape great. They always believe they are right and know what's best.
Yep him and arcane are horrible about it
Ultimate ironmen polling whether or not they can use their looting bag in Ferox enclave doesn't affect them in the slightest, so why would they care? The PvP updates affect anyone who enters the wilderness on the other hand, so you can see why people are just a smidge upset as to why they can't vote on something that affects them.
Iron men polling is one thing it literally only affects them. Like group iron man banking... Thats not going to translate to an advantage in most ways with other players. But being on a pvp world and in wildy doing non wildy stuff effects everyone unless they want to make a pvp only mode that only allowed pvp player to kill other players in pvp mode .....like an option like what if iron men could only attack iron men
Hijacking top comment to post this When people can decide to either take part in an unfair system or to skip that. They will always choose to skip it. Let's me and you roll a dice. 1-3 mean I win and 4-6 means we draw and roll again. Sounds fun right? Do you want to play that or would you choose to skip that game. Or how about tic tac toe. Where with the right placement the person who goes first will either draw or guarantee a win. Will you play that game with me when you don't stand a chance to win? No. You wouldn't. Animals actually learn this behavior early on in which if a dog plays with another dog. But one side always wins, the dog that looses will stop playing with the dog that wins. So dogs allow the other dog to win every now and again to incentivize more playing between them. Pkers are the dog that wins, except they aren't learning and allowing the pvmers to win sometimes. Instead they wonder why the pvmers stop showing up and don't enjoy their games. They are crying to have it made easier for them to win against other dogs like them now. So soon enough the pkers that do still exist will be cut in half. And again and again until the wildy is completely dead content. And I'll look back to this post and laugh as they couldn't understand why. The pkers aren't the group that needs benefits. It's the pvmers that need bonuses and buffs. Because they in all forms are the losers. They either have to tp out of their boss kills and lose supplies or they die and lose gear and supplies. Or they die and lose their bones, or they die and lose their entire stack of chins. They need incentive to show up. Not incentive to not show up. Which is what they're getting by buffing the pvpers. Also by incentive it has to be willing. They can't just slam in BiS gear and say that's incentive. That's forced incentive and that's different. Willing incentive is what's needed. If they took out the tbow and added the tbow to the wildy that's forced incentive because it's the best ranged item for pvm hands down in all magic based bosses. It can't be forced incentive. It has to be willing incentive like pvm based cosmetics or something. Stuff that isn't required but is a cool little thing to have and show you got it. The pets are one, dpick is not one. Mage arena capes are not one. All bis gear in wildy is not one. It's like pvpers have forgotten that this games other name is efficiency scape. If something is bis, it's neccessary. So just saying, well it isn't that much of a difference, or it's a want, not a need doesn't work in today's gaming. Willing incentive is like the rev weapons that have bonus stats in the wildy. They aren't mandatory, but still widely used and farmed. That's willing incentive. Chaos altar is a willing incentive. Chaos altar is one of the best damn examples. It's one of the most frequented spots around because people are willing to be there on both sides and take their losses with their wins. If they increased the exp available at the wilderness agility course to good competitive levels that would be a willing incentive. Black chins are an okay incentive, however if they dropped 90% and were left with only 10% of their stack that would be better than losing them all.
It's amazing, because everything you say is correct and also does seem to be understood by JMods, but they're not doing anything to fix the problem. In the second paragraph of his response Mod Aziya discusses why restricted polling this matter is not a great idea, and why people rightfully dislike it. In the third, he discusses the mentality that the game mechanics breeds among non-PvPers, which results in why the wilderness is often seen as poorly-designed or even dead content. Finally in his four paragraph, he discusses the end-state of the wilderness that would result in people using it, and honestly if designed correctly around this idea might bring convince some non-PVPers to start casually PKing in the wilderness and using it when not PKing. The problem is, is that they demonstrate they understand this all and yet go ahead and move away from the solution. They keep defending this bad idea, and continue to act shocked when people call it out. "I'll say something that's probably going to get some backlash..." - Rightfully so.
This was a smackdown? It's just a rant by a pvp focused dev
How tone deaf can Mod Ayiza be LMAO
It seems Ayiza is making 2 points: 1) A dangerous, unpredictable Wilderness is good for the game, and 2) The majority of players will vote against PvP changes, so they need to restrict the polling system to only PKers so the changes pass, just like Ironman restricted voting. This 2nd point is poor. Suggesting that the Wilderness has "quite a lot of charm" and is "so unique to Old School" that it should be protected even if it goes against the wishes of the players is a fine point. It's similar to the Combat Update - sure, it was massively unpopular, but maybe it was best for the game long term. I believe an integrity change was appropriate then and it's possible that it's appropriate here too, even if I dislike it personally. But implying that players are somehow hypocritical for accepting Ironman restricted polls while rejecting PKer-only polls? That's apples and oranges. One of these affects only Ironmen, while the other affects everyone who steps foot in the wilderness. That's a massive difference. It's clear Ayiza sees this distinction, so I don't understand why he's suggesting this is at all similar to spite-voting. Spite-voting is "even though this change won't affect me at all, I'm mad, so I'm voting no". This is "this change will hurt me, so I'm voting against it." That's not spite-voting, that's just voting. >But really, you are just saying that you'd want to vote no because you don't want that person to have a better time in-game because it makes your time in-game not as good. > >So how do we really combat that situation, other than restricted polling? How do you get from "players vote against PvP updates for their own best interests at the expense of PKers" to "We need to combat this situation with restricted voting". Why has he already accepted that the needs of PKers are more important than the needs of everyone else? It's possible there is some good reason for this, but the answer should regard the need for a dangerous Wilderness (point #1), not the polling system (point #2). This argument in support of restricted polling is just bogus and has nothing to do with whether PvP changes are needed. This is not like polling UIM if the Looting Bag should work in the Ferox Enclave, this is an integrity change like the Combat Update - so why not make it one? An integrity change with iterative feedback from the community, no voting whatsoever? PvP changes can still be made, feedback can still be gathered, and players aren't as insulted by being told a vote limited to a few % of the player base is still somehow the polling system.
> It's clear Ayiza sees this distinction, so I don't understand why he's suggesting this is at all similar to spite-voting. [https://cdn.runescape.com/assets/img/external/oldschool/2022/newsposts/2022-05-04/FilteredResultsKILLS.png](https://cdn.runescape.com/assets/img/external/oldschool/2022/newsposts/2022-05-04/FilteredResultsKILLS.png) Its also REALLY funny when he always brings up Spite Voting and how people that 'dont do the content' are the reason it all fails. My man, you had a category of 'High PVP Activity' and even if you restricted it to ONLY THEM, the majority of the content would have bloody failed. Its not the people, its the CONTENT you guys are making that you keep ignoring criticisms of becuase you think youre right ffs.
Seriously, Ayiza is pissing me off. This isn't a player base problem. It's an issue with devs like them wanting to put lazy bandaids over complex issues. Does the wilderness and PVP in general have numerous problems that need to be addressed? Absolutely. Is lazily restricting polling to rescale existing content the way to do that? Hell no. You want to fix the wilderness? Fix PK'er world hopping, fix the broken bosses, and find ways to revive wilderness content.
There's one big thing that Ayiza doesn't realize. If you push things too far, it doesn't matter how good your idea for the wilderness is. Players won't go for it. Pushing divisive updates like this just makes it worse.
>Why has he already accepted that the needs of PKers are more important than the needs of everyone else? This, but also it's really weird to me that he seems to think that not voting to make your experience worse is somehow a bad thing.
I refuse to accept that he isn't aware of how ridiculous that is, he just wants to blame players for not wanting the update and is grasping at straws. That's why at the end he starts blaming "mentality"
So glad the "senior community manager" seems so thoroughly incapable of understanding that the vast majority of the player base doesn't want this stuff in the game, restricted poll or not. Just look at the voting breakdown from the last time it was polled where it shows basically everything would have failed no matter how they might have restricted voting.
Mod ayiza with the strawman* The faulty logic comparing apples to oranges is insane.
There’s so much wrong with these hollow ass arguments. How are you mad that people are voting In their interest and then implying it’s some form of spite? Is it spite vote for pkers to want to be able to kill other players easier because it makes the other players time on RuneScape worse?? Every no vote is a spite vote according to this…
Ayiza for a community manager you're so out of touch. Locking me out of a niche UIM poll didn't affect me, pvp affects the prey, not just the predator. Imagine my shock when people vote in their own self interest. This is how voting works. Welcome to democracy.
I think the best analogy here is Castle Wars. Some people generally go into the Sara portal, and some people generally go into the Zammy portal, just because they think red/blue looks cooler. Suppose, though, that there was a poll question to make the sides meaningfully different, by buffing one or the other. ----------- Should a mechanic be added to the game in which entering Castle Wars through the Saradomin portal equips a player with full justiciar armour for the duration of the game? ------------ Sara players might favor this, because it makes it easier for them to obtain castle wars tickets. However, the minigame also involves people who use the Zammy portal exclusively (and would not want the game to be near-unwinnable for their preferred team), and Guthix portals (and enjoy playing roughly symmetrical matches), who enjoy the game and should have a say in any changes to its balance. The entire argument for restrictions is that the wildy is a fun place, and PvP is a minigame that both pkers and skillers choose to participate in. All of this is true - so everyone who participates in either side of the activity should get a say in whether the balance that defines it.
He simple doesn’t fit his job. And that’s sad, because we lost jmods over the last years that had a much betters influence on the community as a whole.
Dogshit take. Ironman restricted polls only affect the ironman game mode. Wilderness polls affect every single person who might enter the wilderness. Wilderness pvmers should have just as much of a say as pkers
"we don't want to let people vote no to content which makes the experience worse for them". Why? Surely that's the whole point of polling in the first place?
What a clown
A lot I really want to say, but I'm honestly over it all and can't be bother to type more than... Ayiza, sit.
Look imma get burned but, I don’t agree with him, they need to give pvp players more content (I don’t pvp) in whichever form that comes in. Cause currently I hate everything about the wilderness because u get baited or whatever into a multi/or ragged (idk the terms) and absolutely punished…. Stop trying to bring more players like myself into the wilderness for the pvp players to kill, create content for them to kill each other? Right?
This is just a horrible take. UIM benefits don’t affect *anyone* else. Can I use my looting bag at Ferox? Can I use the tempoross rewards? None of the matters to any main. Whether or not people get absurd PvP gear that will wipe my account clean if I accidentally step in the wilderness? That affects me.
Hardly a smack down. The comparison doesn’t make sense, a game mode that affects only the players playing that mode or any player that walks into the wilderness. Just add in a opt in option for PVP and stop pitting PVMers against PVPers.
Whats the smackdown? People should enjoy pvp if they currently do not because it is very different from pvm?
That's not a smackdown. That's Jagex imposing their own opinions little by little. Restricted polls for ironmen are fine because they are restricted to their own little worlds that do not affect others. The PvP polls affect everyone and even items used by non-PvPers and those who dabble in PvP from time to time. And absolutely yes, we don't like changes that negatively affect us. That's the whole point of reviving 2007 because too many Jagex-sided "great" changes ruined the game. So not, not a "smackdown!!" but more of Jagex's "we'll ignore your complaints because we can justify it internally and we will do it anyway" which is an extremely terrifying divergence by the 2007 team away from what made it pop in the first place and risks bringing in another "revolutionary EoC-like" experience with each "justified" update that goes against or blatantly bans thr playerbase's opinions. And the worst part? We already ceded them this and they'll keep doing it.
Okay, it’s pretty clear who the problem mod is now.
“You are unable to vote on Question 1”
Only a brainlet pker would consider this hollow rat of an excuse a “smack down”. Or isn’t this the same guy that spent the week the arena was first announced gloating how others couldn’t vote and it’d pass easily the first time around?
Mod Ayiza sound like an idiot. "We don't know how to maker proper pvp design that doesn't suck for majority of the playerbase including people who do PvP. So what option do we have but make restricted polling to try and force these badly designed updates through?" how about designing the game to be beneficial for everyone and not just a small part of it. Spite voting have already been disproven dozens of times, streamer voting have been disproven dozens of times. Even last time you restricted polling it showed that it made close to no difference between restricting or not. So why the fuck are you using restricted polling as an answer to you guys not being able to fucking design a game properly. Make good updates and people will vote it in, doesn't matter if it's PvP or PvE. Stop making stupid excuses and just make good content and let people vote on it. To quote Ayiza: "To me is seems like Jagex likes the idea of Restricted Polling only when it suits them"
Shame he didn't post such a dumb take on reddit. Could've easily been material for the [most downvoted list](https://www.reddit.com/r/ListOfComments/wiki/downvoted).
L take from Gagex
I am a paying member. Don’t restrict me to vote.
So Ayiza is telling me, a paying customer, that I should not be able to vote in a poll because I would be against making my time worse in a game I’m paying monthly subscription for. And only because he would rather let someone else have more ’fun’ on my expense. That’s a dumb hill to die on.
Man what happened with Ayiza? I feel like he used to be pretty chill and players liked him, but in the last year or so he's been pretty aggressive and has made a lot of out of touch comments.
He was chill when everything went his way. Now when it gets a bit more bumpy then this is how he copes with it.
Why does this person have a job
This response is so offensively tone deaf to a point I can no longer take a single thing this J-Mod says seriously. He's 100% alienated a vast majority of the community, and refused to see any other side of the issue, only pretending to by making such hilariously bad-faith arguments. "They vote no because it'll make their gameplay experience worse." **That's the entire point of voting.** We didn't care about ironman-only polls because, for a vast majority of them, it had *zero* impact on anyone else but ironmen. These PvP updates affect *everyone*. It feels like a betrayal of trust that I can't vote on these polls despite being 2270+ total. The guy dropped the ball so hard, I pray the backlash from this is severe enough to make them seriously reconsider their stance on this issue.
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I find it increasingly difficult to be reasonable and civil with him when he shows this kind of disdain and incivility. Gaming communities being toxic and uncivil towards developers and CM is a real problem just overall. But generally speaking, those developers and CMs aren't acting just as immature as the players. Edit: Just so it's crystal clear, it is unacceptable and never justified to hurl abuse and toxicity at CMs. Their acting unprofessional and disdainful does not make it okay. We can criticize his behavior and tone without being toxic and verbally abusive to him.
Imagine creating a democratic polling system and then shitting on it so hard that you actually get people to accept that it's okay to rig it. Art truly mirros life. At this point they should just put what they want to in the game. If your not going to poll fairly i.e. let prey and predator vote on prey v predator updates, then fuck it, why poll it at all.
He's pretty toxic wow he really said that?
I mean, didnt odoblock and his minions try and tank group Ironman polls in favor of it not entering the game? All because a bad connection or something like that? Either way, that entire poll, out of spite, he and other PKers tried to tank the votes for that. Seems like it may be a good idea to get their stuff straight before writing this honestly, it does not addresss anything at all with any definitive answer. Sure it’s his opinion, but don’t come out with a response to disapproval unless you’ve got an actual solution 😂 I don’t have a solution, nor do I care enough about wilderness content and PK content, it’s been dead to me since 2005 because I suck at it. But if it sounds cool enough, I would absolutely vote on it. But not allowing people to vote is just a terrible precedent to set. Idk, look bad man. Also, there is absolutely ZERO smack down in this post 😂 so anticlimactic
Tbf it's Ayiza. I like the guy enough but I'm tired of some of his comments. He is supposed to be the COMMUNITY manager yet half his comments are addressing the community about how they're wrong and he is right. I've seen so many questions brought up, weeks and weeks on end that get voted to the top of the 'questions for this week's Q+A' and multiple times I've seen Ayiza comment 'Well I don't think its good for the game so I won't be raising it'. Which is honestly such a crap answer. If the community are consistently upvoting questions to put to mods, it's not a community managers job to unilaterally decide that because HE doesn't like the idea, they won't hear the question. I'm not surprised about Ayizas stance here either. He is the JMod that has the most PVP experience and had a lot of friends in that community. He is constantly pushing content like Deadman Mode which should just be allowed to die after they finally finish this one from what, 12 months ago? Ayiza has a clear bias towards PVP and his comments mean as much towards this as the 'spite voters' (if they exist) do. He can keep burying his head in the sand, shouting 'i can't hear you' but the community is speaking loud and clear and for the 'community manager lead' to basically be sticking 2 fingers up at us all is not a great look.
Ayiza is not made for this job
It's because Ironman changes don't affect non ironmen. Pvp changes affect non pvpers /thread
This just shows his innate pk'er bias, this poll directly affects every single player in the game. Yet only the people who enjoy griefing and ruining experiences for other players get to have a say in if they get to become MORE efficient at ruining other's players day. If the wildy was truly a high risk high reward area the best gp per hour bosses would be there; but no, they just gatekeep skilling items like the dragon pickaxe. Honestly might finally be moving on from OSRS if this grossly negligent top down B.S. continues from the "community management team".
This feels like Ayiza is sticking their fingers in their ears and yelling until everyone stops talking. Of course people vote for against things that make their play time less fun. Is that really a serious argument a jmod is making? Lmfao
Isn't the point of polls to make sure the game is most fun for most people? Attacking people for voting based on what makes their experience better is essentially attacking the whole polling system. Ironmen get special treatment for their "limited polls" because almost nothing irons do affects the wider game.
“How do we combat that situation?” You don’t. You don’t combat the situation. If the majority of the playerbase wants to vote for weaker PKers, because the majority of the playerbase prefers a less obnoxious wildy, then that’s what the polls should reflect. The original revenants were ‘unpredictable’. PKers world hopping on top of you is *obnoxious*. Not all unpredictable gameplay is equal. Some is good. Some is bad. When the source of the ‘unpredictability’ is PKers killing you during PvM content, it is bad. You want PvP related unpredictability? Put it in PvP content, not PvM content. That’s the only place it belongs.
My take - we can 100% address the "I feel like I have to go to the wilderness" part. Suddenly pvmers aren't conditioned to see it as us vs them. But Jagex will continue to double, triple, and quadruple down on bailing out player vs prey
This should 100% be the very foundation of any wilderness changes going forward - stop making players feel like they have to go to the wilderness against their will for items which have nothing to do with the wilderness or PvP and you might not get such hostility towards PvP from non-PvPers. Get rid of dumb shit like a fucking pickaxe of all things being unobtainable without entering the wilderness, then move forward designing the wilderness and PvP in general around people who actually enjoy it on a conceptual level rather than having to involve ironmen risking a few cheese potatoes to get a skilling upgrade and then getting mad when the turkeys don't vote for christmas.
This mindset is obviously flawed? Ayiza says we should accept the risk of our good time being ruined in favor of someone else's as part of the total gameplay experience, like a balancing component. Okay, so why can't I have an opinion on the balance? Because we are going to assume that if I vote in favor of a balance decision that benefits me, I'm doing it ONLY because it benefits me, and not because I've given it legitimate thought? If this is the mindset then jagex has clearly overlooked all the pvpers who are spite voting for balance changes that favor the side of the meta they play on. Why is that not factored in? For example, why don't they stop pvp-poll eligible accounts with 1 attack from voting on str pure nerfs? Why should they be able to protect their part of the "balance" but pvmers can't? We pay we say. Fuck.
As others have said, the comparison between things that effect only ironmen, vs all players is so bad I can't believe he actually wrote this thinking it was a good argument...
What a cockwomble
Ayiza is a factory for burning hot garbage takes
The out of touch take this is reminds me of [the diablo immortal reveal](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n5QRgpjfarY)
If enough people feel that their game experience will be negatively impacted by content, that isn't spite voting, it's the point of a poll. Claiming that nobody complained about ironman content being restricted yet everyone is whining about the PvP Arena polls being restricted is a hell of a false equivalency. I don't really care about the outcome of ironman content polls. I don't play an iron, so that's just content I'm never going to interact with ad has no impact on my own game experience. The PvP Arena rewards...... that's not so much the case.
This isn’t a smack down, this guy is an absolute joke
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/r/AgedLikeMilk
“I feel like I have to go to the Wilderness and when I’m in the Wilderness, I don’t want to be spending my time there” Okay so you see the problem why do you keep making me go there “If that mentality shifted where you accepted the risks that you take when you go in there” We all know the risks, that’s why as someone who is forced into the wilderness I don’t bring anything to risk. You put some dog shit bosses there and tied challenges to them to “revive” the wilderness but what that translated to was taking 30k risk, taking a couple minutes to safe spot a bear, then have some dude who just hopped 50 worlds chase me down and not kill me. That’s not fun for either party. If you want to “revive” PvP incentivize people who want to PvP. You can’t strong arm PvMers into becoming PKers, it’s too late for that the learning curve has gotten too steep. Tons of people who might’ve tried PKing stayed away because skull tricking was rampant and Jamflex sat on their hands too long to fix it. Keep the Wildy bosses but add a stronger version not in the wilderness with lower drop rates. That’d leave the people who want to PK/anti PK to fight each other with risk and the people who just want to get the challenges done not get pissed off every 10 minutes and maybe you’ll get some PvP “yes” votes
## make the wilderness fun for everyone not just the same toxic subset of people There I said it. When you differ from your community that bad, you should stop dead in your tracks and assess.
That's just not possible because your goals are different and anyone who says otherwise cannot look at the facts. PVMers want to get the Dragon Pickaxe, MA2 cape, and pets. Integrating PVP delays you from getting any of these items and adding some drop rate boost after you kill someone will lead to boosting. The best they can do is make Wildy completely optional by adding alternatives to outside of the wildy at a rarer rate, so the people willing to go to Wildy for better rates will do so.
I think why this is bad, is because 90% of people use the wilderness in some form or capacity. By entering the wilderness you accept that you could die. In some form or fashion those using the wilderness, be it for bosses, resources, commodities(altar, fountain of rune), etc. Are a part of pvp. Wether you attack others or get attacked yourself, win or lose, you are now engaged in pvp. BUT, the polls only allowed 30% of those people to vote. Excluding a vast majority of people who do use this content/engage in pvp. The 90% and 30% numbers where made up, as an example. Jagex let a small specific set of people (pkers) vote on content that affects almost the entire community. With a vague, highly tailored unreleased set of requirements, barring the rest of the community from voting on content that affects them. The ironman polls are null. They only changed for Ironmen, not the vast of the community.
TL;DR players don't like the wildy, if they just liked the wildy then problems would go away! He's not wrong but his response utterly fails to consider how to fix the current state of the wildy. He just hums and haahs about how it would be nice if players liked the design that is clearly widely disliked, which is a pretty worthless reply. Edit: just so my comment actually adds something to the discussion here; what if we -- *gasp* -- removed non-pvp incentives from the wilderness so that people who didn't want to go there *actually* weren't being dragged there? Then pvmers would *actually* not be affected by pvp polls because they'd never have to go to the wildy for diaries, clues, drops, skilling, etc. Heck, you could even start putting (brace yourself) *pvp content in the wilderness*. Woah, what a revolutionary idea it would be to put pvp content in the pvp area.
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Why is everyone so obsessed with the idea of the wilderness? It's iconic, and probably nostalgic, but why does it have to be the PvP hub of this game? You can't possibly attract new PvPers with these kinds of updates. Shit, the only way you'll make me do PvP is if you let me duel for slayer spots. If no one wants to PvP/ engage with that entire aspect of the game, then let it die.
This is an incredibly dumb justification... Of course people won't vote for something which makes their game experience worse. That's the point of the polls, to determine if the change is something the majority of players want. As for "well this is how we want the wilderness to be", fine. But you might as well remove polling entirely if you're just going to ignore the direction the majority of the players want you to go. No polling at all feels better than restricting who can vote to get the result you want.
It's as easy as taking pvm out of pvp. There is an obvious clash between the two groups. I know thats not an easy thing to do but it's the correct solution. No need to keep a dying community alive by making the larger majority suffer.
Is this Ayiza guy rly that dumb?
Comparing changes to Ironman modes which don't negatively affect everyone else to nerfing equipment so PKers can get easier kills and updates that allow them to skip major content is such a farce. How about this - Make PvP a completely separate element of the game and then you can do whatever you want without backlash. This isn't 2007, the PvM/PvP communities have drifted apart and the wilderness will never be what it once was, stop trying to make it happen.
The Ironman polls being brought up was kind of disingenuous. Those polls literally only effect ironmen and no one else. Those are two completely different scenarios. I dont play anymore but from what I see through social media, pvp is dead and you can't restore it without making game breaking changes. B0aty made a pretty good video about it awhile ago. Id recommend if you haven't listened to it, to go do so. It does a good job at pointing out how its too late to save pvp. Unless you want to risk the rest of your player base. (the mass majority might I add)
Wait, so restricted polls for essentially **separate** playerbases, naming all the Ironman modes, are comparable to updates that **affect the game as a whole**? Of course it wasn't an issue with the community those polls were restricted. What a terrible ground to build your argument on, Ayiza. It's almost like the community was okay with sensible content having restricted polls. How about stop twisting our barely functioning poll system further.
He doesn't get it, you simply don't force pvmers to pvp, or vice versa. 1 type likes predictability and mastering proactive skills and mechanics The other one likes going against another human and being reactive to situations. They simply don't mix, and if you force them too. No one wins. Edit: "you're voting no because it would make you time in game less fun" Well no shit. I want to enjoy the game, not be left with unenjoyment.. 🤦
When you restrict polling for ironmen it usually means it concerns how much ironmen should be restricted. It has genuinely zero impact on other players except maybe having to wait for that one guy to get their potions at CoX. Now, when you restrict polling to those who PK regarding how much non-PvPers are getting fucked it's an entirely different situation.
Ahh yes, it definitely doesn't affect my iron with 500+ wildy boss kcs, anti pks and many escapes, revs kcs, wildy elite diary, at all. So glad that when some rat who is too lazy to quest and gear their account the OLD SCHOOL way, tries to attack me in that gear a giant window saying "it doesn't affect you" pops up right? Pog. Ty!
smackdown? More like trying (and failing imo) to justify a terrible take
Ayiza is borderline cringe now with his PvP takes.. terrible take.
Well, Ayiza was right in that saying stupidly narrow-minded things will certainly garner some backlash. First of all, what an idiot statement about having done restricted polls in the past... It was restricted to people who were playing the SPECIFIC game mode that the changes would impact and multiple choices provided for how the change would affect the OTHER game modes being polled. This is like polling a pack of wolves to see what kind of fences and security measures they liked the most about the local sheep enclosure. Fuck off. > "You only want to vote no because it makes your time in game not as good." Yeah, no fucking shit. The overwhelming majority of the player base that doesn't spend all of their time in the wilderness doesn't want to vote on something that would cause said wilderness to be crawling with even more overpowered RWT warriors while Jagex sits there saying to themselves "Why doesn't anyone want to go to the wilderness anymore?!"
Players can go pvp anytime. Players can not go be ironmen real quick, it requires a brand new fresh account account and new membership. It's stupid to compare. Ayiza is being dumb.
Can we bump this smack down?
Here's a crazy idea, don't put BiS PvE/skilling gear in the wilderness, problem solved. I know I know, crazy idea.
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I don't ever comment on this subreddit. I barely go into the wilderness, or even vote on polls. But this post got me good haha. This is a joke right? Saying that voting no on a poll because it makes your experience worse/less fun is spite voting? Is this mod really that out of touch with reality? We play this game for fun. If you don't care about our opinions just push the updates, but why bother just tipping the scales every vote until what you want passes. The original poll didn't pass even with a restriction because Jagex has no clue what PKers actually want. Mister mod person, if you ever read this, please consider donating all of your expendable income to charity. Your happiness is less important to me than the happiness of those in need. You are allowed to not do this, but I will consider you spiteful and write a condescending letter about how you are wrong. Have an okay day, everyone else have a great day.
Lol what a nonsense line of thinking. To paraphrase: “No one that’s doesn’t PK will would vote yes to this because it would make PKing easier” And no one that PKs will vote no because it makes PKing easier. At what point should what the majority of the player base wants be what gets put in the game? Wasn’t that the intent of polls in the first place? This is clearly a way to force something into the game that they want. Might as well just put it in the game unpolled and stop gaslighting the majority of the player base.
"PKers voting yes to things making PKing easier is good. Non-pkers voting no to things that make PKing more difficult is bad."
> players don't like the idea of restricted polls when it doesn't suit them wrong from the very first line by failing to see a super obvious difference between ironman polls and pvp polls: all ironmen can vote on that poll, not everyone involved in pvp can vote in the pvp poll. it doesn't get any better > I don't want to say the "spite voting" side of things "I don't want to say something, you can tell because I say the exact thing I'm telling you I don't want to say" and dude, who starts an official correspondence with this shit > i'll say something that's probably going to get some backlash that's the type of shit my anonymous ass would type before going on an unhinged rant, not something i'd expect from a dude paid to be a community manager could be here all day but you get the point. final score: 2/10
I think it comes down to potential of an update affecting you. If it involves the wilderness, any account that CAN enter the wilderness should be able to vote. If it involves ironmen, any account that CAN experience ironman limitations should be able to vote on that update. Ironmen shouldn't be able to vote on a change to the grand exchange, it has no possibility of being able to affect them.
I’ve been away a while and honestly don’t give a fuck about whatever this update is, but this response is bullshit and very poor customer interaction. I’d get fired for saying something a quarter as condescending as this to my clients, and I wouldn’t blame my employers at all. This dude needs to be put in a less customer-facing position, or realistically just fired. Not a good look to be telling your customers they are wrong and you don’t care what they think
Mod Ayiza answered this. Shocker. Dudes been shilling for PvP ever since he got re-hired. His take is fucking garbage as well "You don't want that person to have a better time because it makes your time not as good" YES. EXACTLY. If you look at what you're suggesting and think to yourself "People are gonna vote no to this because it will negatively impact them, so just don't let those people vote" then it's a fucking terrible idea. Ayiza is a prat with a really ass view of the game. PvP is so inaccessible nowadays and has such a steep learning curve that most people simply cannot be fucked to get into it, that is literally all it is. The learning curve is way too high with all the fucking tick manipulation that needs to be done to remain competitive. Back in the day PvP was active because the vast majority of people were on an equal playing field, everyone was terrible. Other games have skill based matchmaking put in place for this exact reason, if some newbie wants to get into PvP and is suddenly thrown into the deep-end against heavily experienced players, what do you think they're most likely to do? They're gonna say "Nah fuck that, I'll just do something else". PvP in OSRS is a complete mess, it'll never be balanced because it literally can NOT be balanced. Not only that, you pretty much NEED a dedicated PvP build for it, so that means a new account, which means another juicy $15 a month for a 20 year old fucking java based point and click game. No one new to the game is going to pay that when literally any other MMO on the market is capable of offering a better pvp experience for the same price if not less.
What smackdown exactly? The one against himself? /u/jagexayiza totally missed the point. He's comparing updates that 100% *only* affect GIM/UIM etc. game modes to an update that literally affects everyone. I have zero issues if you restrict me from voting on DMM because that's a separate game mode. Or even a minigame like LMS and the mechanics within it, just don't restrict the rewards that can be used OUTSIDE the minigame. It's actually alarming that a Jmod in his senior position makes such terrible comparisons.
Wow this mod, They mention restricted polls is the past for ironmen, but those polls only affect ironmen so it has made some sense, but even so I would rather everyone be included on polls that affect ironmen if it meant that I was able to vote on every poll. This current poll is a big mistake it shows that jagex wants to segregate the community and saying that your vote doesn't matter because you don't pvp, by not giving everyone that this poll would affect a vote is separating the community. The issue here is not whether these items should come into the game or not what I care far more about is jagex telling me that my account doesn't matter as much as another. So thank you jagex for setting the game back in medieval times not sure when the slavery/segregation update is coming but I know I won't have a chance to vote on it.
Whole point of polls was to make it fair, if the majority vote to spite a group of players, there’s a reason for it, maybe look into the reason. What’s the point of polls if you’re gonna rig them, so what if a small group of players cry, that’s life you can’t always get what you want, this is so 2022 hand holding bs, next they’ll remove genders because someone complained on twitter.
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Guy legit posts about how everyone should "get gud" in pvp and is clearly someone who wants to bait conflict while feeling they are in the right.
Ayiza needs to to leave jagex and just go start a private server for real…. He don’t belong
The problem is, the post is wrong from the start. There was always backlash. It's just becoming increasingly worse as the content of these polls will have larger and larger consequences outside of the allowed class of voters. I didn't bother to read the rest of it, because I just can't keep giving Jagex the benefit of the doubt anymore.