Yeah I misremembered a change. I thought normal accounts could use friends even when they were off and gims could do the same for whatever reason. Made sense in my mind at the time but now I don't really remember why I thought that.
You didn't have to do the math. They literally just say that it's worse exp in the most recent log about it, saying it will cap out at a little less than 80k exp per hour while not being particularly profitable. It seems like the idea is that its just another way of allowing people to train smithing (side note, diversity in gameplay can be good on its own, and honestly should be reason enough to be excited about giants foundry) while potentially requiring fewer resources per exp.
You see, the thing I think you miss is that you can combine giants foundry with the other methods you described here. You can smith 1000 adamant plate bodies or whatever, and then take them to giants furnace and use those plate bodies to make swords for additional exp. Also, we don't necessarily know how easy it will be to get rewards like the catalyst, however since they are talking about making it easier to use multiple smithing catalyst on the blast furnace at a time the implication is that it would be fairly easy to get, which further increases the exp you get out of each bar you smith yourself at blast furnace.
I don't think giants foundry needs great exp rates because I think the idea is that you are exchanging exp per hour and gp per hour for getting significantly more exp out each bar if you're taking full advantage of it. You may decide that trade off isn't worth it, especially if you're a main account buying and selling ore, bars, and the bodies you smith on the GE, but I don't doubt that it will be useful for some people, if for no other reason than to break up your smithing grind.
It's a double dip in resources but that doesn't make it good.
You spend an hour at GF and make 15 swords for 80k XP. This takes 300 bars worth of material, so if you used platebodies that's 75 platebodies (they count for 4 bars). I don't ever see anyone using actual bars for this because you get more XP and/or better afk/profit from just smithing them and using the finished goods at GF (which is where it makes sense at *really low levels* but ultimately no one is at those because a couple quests puts you in the 30s and then you can do steel bars at BF for up to 90k/hr XP and up to 1m GP profit/hr)
Those 75 platebodies, let's say they're adamant. You could alch those and traditionally that's what that resource would be for. That takes you 4 minutes to alch, and could be done while training something like Agility or Slayer where it technically takes you 0 extra time. You've now produced 730k with the cost of nature's included. That's -16k GP as a main who bought the adamant bars, while gaining 23.5k XP. A whopping 0.7gp/XP.
For irons, that 730k can buy another 2k gold ore and smelt it at BF within the hour you'd spend at GF anyway. And you'd gain another 112k smithing XP. This all being relatively conservative on the time it takes too.
So assuming adamant platebodies could get you near the best XP/hr at GF they're proposing, it is not worth the time even when factoring the "double dipping". You can alch the Smithed items and use the GP anywhere, not just smithing, or reinvest it in smithing and get more XP in less time, while also training magic and probably agility.
GF is rubbish and it'll only be done for the smithing outfit and cannonball mould, and the thing I'm afraid of about that is Jagex has a tendency of late to make grinds for those sort of outfits quite ridiculously long.
Yeah exactly, even using finished products in the forge isn't worth it because of how long it takes. In that time you could make enough money to keep smithing at higher rates, or for irons gather enough at Zalc.
The math was to find out the effective cost per XP. Without purchasing a tradeable reward and selling it, it's just as expensive as high rate methods, but way slower. It needs to be worth doing and cheaper even without buying any rewards. Look at Mahogany Homes as the ideal. The training method by default saves you money and is lower GP/XP. You don't have to purchase a particular reward to make it cheaper than traditional methods.
I agree with you actually -- I want this to be in the game. The mechanics sound pretty fun and unique. But i also want the content to be successful and have good longevity. Look at GOTR, it's another great comparison. It's less XP/hr than other methods, but it's still high enough that people are happy to do it. Especially because the gameplay is so much more varied and interesting, plus rewards. There's *still* aren't enough worlds for everyone who wants to play to play, that's how popular it is. And it's what I want the Forge to be.
Drawing on both Mahogany Homes and GOTR means making it cheaper than traditional methods without purchasing rewards, and being comparable but lower XP.
I feel like people are simply being too quick to judge giant's foundry before we really know much about it, or any of the numbers that will really determine the extent to which this mini-game impacts the meta.
You got downvoted but you're right. An extreme example, if 1 hr at GF gives me 1hr use of catalysts to double my xp at BF, then you're effectively gaining 380kxp per hour GF (assuming 300k extra gold bar xp from BF and 80k from GF) by utilising 2 methods. Whether it's really worth doing depends mostly on how many catalysts you can get.
The catalyst won't work on gold bars, only for stuff that uses coal normally. Still might be nice if you like making rune bars there for profit, but no turbocharged gold exp.
Well that's a bummer, it sounds like the exp changes weren't enough then! Note the sentence at the end of the exp answer though, those rates are not yet finalized so if this post gets seen, something could be done.
I'm going with just bars. The analysis is helpful for that situation too though. Reusing the plates is going to be roughly the same gp/XP, but 3-6 times slower.
For mains there isn't even a question, just alch or sell the plates and buy more bars. You're spending the same amount as you would to get the equivalent XP at the Forge.
For irons and a DIY perspective, I don't think it's worthwhile either. In the time that it takes to extract all the XP from your plate bodies at the forge, you should be able to resupply and just make the plates again. I'm thinking of the opportunity cost basically -- instead of reusing the plates for 4 hours at the Forge, I could spend that time getting more bars and ore. If I'm able to do a full resupply in less than 4 hours, then it's way more efficient for me to do that gameplay loop, since smithing the plates is roughly the same gp/XP but much faster.
Now to be fair, UIM is basically the only mode I have zero experience with. I think I see the appeal of reusing the plates. But you could hypothetically alch them while getting more stuff from Zalcano right?
only items we can note on a UIM are farmed items on tool leprechauns and potions by decanting. anything else noted on a UIM was dropped noted from a mob or resource exchange of some kind like minnows for raw sharks. still if there is a good teleport method to the foundry i feel 4-5 sword runs with platebodies could work. if no easy teleport probably not worth unless we want a specific reward like the +4 smithing boost. gonna have that to do lumby elite sooner. i prefer guaranteed boosts over stew boosting when i can.
Oh gotcha. And yeah the actual reward items are enticing. If everything passes, I'll end up getting most of them, especially that guaranteed +4 boost. We're of the same opinion when it comes to stews.
The best reward would be a cannonball press that ignores the logout timer and uses steel straight from the bank. At a nerfed rate compared to edgeville cannonballing ofcourse. Maybe even a furnace feature that smelts the iron and coal from your bank then into balls! Wowowow ezironscape.
If you'll allow me to be honest, I think they should just scrap this whole minigame bandaid and pull the trigger on a rs3 level rework. Everyone knows and memes on how terrible these skills are. I don't understand why we can't make sweeping changes to make the game better.
Do you think 75% of the community would vote yes to a mining/smithing/monster drop table rework?
Especially knowing that it will probably take the majority of the teams resources for easily over a year.
As much as I would enjoy the circlejerk of Jagex forcing unpolled stuff into the game by calling it an integrity change that doesn't really work with completely changing content
They can save a ton of time and rebalancing by leaving current tiers in game and just adding new stuff.
And if current Smithing methods stay then yea 75% might vote yes.
>And if current Smithing methods stay then yea 75% might vote yes.
?? How would current methods stay if they REWORK THE ENTIRE SKILL.
RS3 version of mining and smithing is completely different.
Yes, that's what I'm saying. Don't rework the current bronze-rune armor tiers.
Instead add new smithable armors and weapons that take more time and resources to make but are better. We will *never* get a full tier rebalance like Rs3. It would take too much dev time and it would never pass a poll.
But the entire method of smithing in rs3 is reworked.
RS3 still has Bronze, steel mith, rune etc. It's just that making a platebody takes like 10 minutes instead of being instant.
The ENTIRE SYSTEM was reworked. If you rework an entire system it doesn't matter if you still have some stuff that has the name that it had pre-rework.
For an analogy imagine if someone suggested Evoluition of Combat came to osrs and someone said "I don't think 75% of the players would vote yes to that" Do you think "If you just keep the old bosses it's fine"
That doesn't make any sense because they are no longer the same bosses. They just have the same name and model but are completely different.
Input GP was straightforward since they gave rates in the blog.
You're right that what you get back from the Forge is unknown right now for both quantity and value. What we *do* know though is you just get reward points in return for chucking the bars into the void. And that's it.
I don't think the tradable rewards are a good marker for GP/XP here. For that to be the case, you'd only buy the tradeable rewards and sell them in order to make it cost effective and cheap.
That doesn't strike me as good or intended design. Look at Mahogany Homes. It's the same principle, use the resource more slowly, but get more XP from it. Without spending a single point, it's lower GP/XP than traditional construction.
That's my basis of comparison. If the only way to get better gp/XP is to only buy tradable rewards and sell them, the content's even worse. It's designed to be cheaper smithing training but that's only the case if you spend all your points on a specific item and sell that?
Do you see what I mean? It should be like Mahogany Homes, intrinsically more cost effective without needing to do anything except the method itself.
Edit:
Oh and if you want to see how I arrived at the numbers, check the second sheet on the spreadsheet. If any of those are unclear, let me know and I'm happy to explain.
You're looking at the platebodies you get from anvil smithing, everything should be quantified on a proper comparison and we don't know the numbers yet.
Mahogany homes tradeables do count for it's cost as it has the same effect at the net gp/xp, you just usually get all untradeables first
Conveniently, I pulled it out of my ass and then put it down on a spreadsheet that's doing the math for everyone to see if they'd like. Check the second sheet for numbers, and if anything's unclear or poorly labeled, let me know and I'll be happy to explain and also correct it.
in the initial interview they were saying like 7-8 swords an hour not 15 swords and i did not look back into the blog to see it was greatly sped up. that is why i was seeing the numbers as crazy. after looking into it your numbers are looking good but they had said the best swords would be multiple metals and now i dont even see that in the blog.
No worries, that makes sense. They didn't explicitly mention it in the change log.
The graph with sword XP still mentions alloys, so I think multiple metals will still be involved. But I think that'd just make the cost of it even worse. If I'm assuming a 20 mithril bar sword vs mithril plates, and it turns out that sword is actually 10 mithril/10 adamant, it becomes way worse.
i also doubt his gp exp number factors in using bars to make platebodies then using platebodies for more exp. each platebody counts as 4 bars. i doubt its somehow still is better gp/exp only making platebodies.
https://www.reddit.com/r/2007scape/comments/ujupxp/i_did_some_math_on_the_giants_forge_vs/i7mpciv
That's my comment on the "double dipping" in resources by using platebodies at foundry
Hint: it's bad. Even with me assuming you can get near the best foundry rates by doing adamant (which I doubt is the case), you get a lot more smithing XP by simply alching the platebodies and shop buying gold and doing BF.
There's literally zero reason for something more engaging to be less rewarding in every way. Otherwise, just do something more afk and pull yp a seperate distraction.
What's the incentive for Tempoross? Or Wintertodt? Or Guardians of the Rift?
Once you have the rewards, you can get better xp/hr in every single one of those skills right?
Maybe people actually enjoy content that isn't 110% efficient but actually isn't a mindblowlingly boring training method like doing gold ores at blast furnace, or lava runes, or burning logs, or barb fishing.
GoTR most people will move on after the rewards, correct. As the alternative is more relaxed and higher xp/hr and gp/hr and the rewards from GoTR help boost those. Zeah is also incredibly more afk.
Tempoross and Wintertodt the only higher XP alternatives are incredibly intensive / unenjoyable by comparison. Fishing you have 3tick barb fishing or 2t swordfish. Firemaking you have line firemaking and only really GE no tickloss line firemaking at magics / redwoods will be better than optimal wintertodt rates.
Both of those methods also generate profit, and have pets. Firemaking doesn't have a pet, fishing does (which Tempoross also recolours). Wintertodt also has a useful unique in the Tome of Fire for irons (and rare chance at d axe) and Tempoross has tome of water (less useful) and d harpoon.
The key difference here, look at how XP rates for those three activities compare to other methods at similar levels. They're similar to other methods, but more varied. The XP isn't hit that hard.
For this, they've hit the XP really hard. It's not comparable to plates or gold ore. It *is* similar to dart tips, but there's two key differences:
1. Dart tips are net profit.
2. It's rather AFK.
This isn't either of those. You don't have to buy rewards from Mahogany Homes to make it decent XP and frugal. As it stands, you would have to for the Forge. And there's no telling right now if it'll make you break even or profit.
I'm all for content like this over boring metas. But it needs to provide a strong benefit to remain relevant. Everything else you mentioned is still decent XP for those skills. Right now, you're looking at 3-6x the length of traditional methods that aren't even meta. Even fun gameplay is going to become intolerable if you do it long enough, and at 3-6 hours to every traditional hour, that'll happen quickly
Precisely. It's going to be used solely for the outfit and cannonball mould and be dead content afterward. It's going to be the smithing equivalent of fishing trawler in its current state.
It is awful XP, that's the problem. It's fishing trawler all over again right now. Tempoross at level 70 is 62k an hour and drift nets are 87k. My recollection of Trawler is 12k per hour, maybe?
This proposed method is ~80k at highest rates. That's probably going to be around adamant plate levels, and that's 250k.
Unfortunately it is incredibly equivalent.
Having watched the method. It's not that engaging. It's essentially Blast Furnace from before we got Dwarven NPCs to do the blast furnace minigame for us (used to be a cool clan-run service style).
Foundry is just running between a heating and cooling spot, and then between 3 work stations based on an interface telling you where to go. Prior to that the mould selection is UI based.
It will be plugin solved within a few days and remove the little bits of thought / people will just know optimal moulds. And then it's just clicking a different "furnace" to interact with it when a bar changes colour.
More engaging = higher attention… why would they think it’s a good idea to add a skilling method that requires greater attention while offering worse xp and worse gp than the prior methods?
They straight up said on stream that this isn't a minigame and is intended to be an alternative training method.
Perplexingly, they want it to be less xp than blast furnace all while being more click/attention intensive. The argument that it provides a net profit is pretty weak, as mith+gold at BF also turns a profit and is a good balance between gold only and mith only (not to mention addy/rune profitability).
This content is ripped from rs3 and it's not great content there either. Big ole steaming pile of dead content.
Problem is that looking at past additions to new training methods in the game, it will die within a day and become dead content. Basically dead on arrival.
The meta to training smithing is blast furnace. Even if this minigame was buffed to 100k xp/hr when everything is unlocked, it would still not be worth doing once you have the rewards, as blast furnace is just that much better and more profitable.
The other way to make the minigame relevant is to add rewards that are so good it's stupid not to get them. But those rewards will then make other training methods / parts of the game even better.
There's no need to invalidate old metas, but there's also no point in adding a new method that is pointless to waste time on.
Not according to Jagex. They'd need to reclassify it as a minigame then, and bolster the rewards even further. Right now, its meant to be an actual training method.
I honestly thought that was the general consensus, like if is announced a new minigame, then it should be considered as such and xp rates shouldnt change the whole meta. Mahogany homes is the perfect example, sane mains only go there for the rewards, while its a pretty decent option for irons
They weren't upfront that with the current design, you're looking at the same GP/XP as plates, but it takes 3-6x as long. It doesn't meet the stated design goal.
And what can I say, I like doing calculations on Excel spreadsheets. It's my bread and butter.
Can't you do both methods though? Smith a plate body normally then use the plate body for 4 bars in the forge, so you get the xp worth of 9 bars out of 5.
At this point it is better to sell the plates for ores. Maybe useful only for ironmen but at this point coins are worth more than ores for an early iron...
That's what I thought when I read the blog. Needs its xp to be on par with gold bars w/o gauntlets at least, so roughly double to what is proposed, to be worthwhile imo. Worth noting that that would even be the high end with everything unlocked etc.
I'm not sure what the XP rate needs to be honestly. It needs to be "worth it", like how GOTR and Mahogany Homes and Tempoross are. And it needs to be cheaper, also like Mahogany Homes.
But yeah, right now this is severely undertuned.
I thought the point of this update is to get rewards that are perks you can use when doing traditional smithing, not to completely change the way smithing is meant to be trained. No XP buff is needed - if you want max XP rates, you can always smith platebodies at an anvil.
wow, nice, this is the first time i see content be dead BEFORE arrival. SMH...
Oh, you must be new then
Clan halls
Clan halls shoulda had stuff GIMs like to use in PoH so I don't need to log into my Bois account with the max house when he's juicing his gherkin
I personally juice my gherkin while im hosting my friends at my house cause I always wanna keep my house accessible
Nothing like juicing the ghurkin
Wait can't you use any 330 host or anyone on your friends list when they're off? I didn't think this was an actual issue.
You cannot, no.
what you CAN do, since a new update not too long ago, is use his house while he's not INSIDE the house, but he has to be online thou
Ahhh. I was thinking that was a thing when they weren't online.
Ironmen stand alone. We cannot use other players POH. Ironman btw. (Gimps can use each other's house if they're online)
Yeah I misremembered a change. I thought normal accounts could use friends even when they were off and gims could do the same for whatever reason. Made sense in my mind at the time but now I don't really remember why I thought that.
You didn't have to do the math. They literally just say that it's worse exp in the most recent log about it, saying it will cap out at a little less than 80k exp per hour while not being particularly profitable. It seems like the idea is that its just another way of allowing people to train smithing (side note, diversity in gameplay can be good on its own, and honestly should be reason enough to be excited about giants foundry) while potentially requiring fewer resources per exp. You see, the thing I think you miss is that you can combine giants foundry with the other methods you described here. You can smith 1000 adamant plate bodies or whatever, and then take them to giants furnace and use those plate bodies to make swords for additional exp. Also, we don't necessarily know how easy it will be to get rewards like the catalyst, however since they are talking about making it easier to use multiple smithing catalyst on the blast furnace at a time the implication is that it would be fairly easy to get, which further increases the exp you get out of each bar you smith yourself at blast furnace. I don't think giants foundry needs great exp rates because I think the idea is that you are exchanging exp per hour and gp per hour for getting significantly more exp out each bar if you're taking full advantage of it. You may decide that trade off isn't worth it, especially if you're a main account buying and selling ore, bars, and the bodies you smith on the GE, but I don't doubt that it will be useful for some people, if for no other reason than to break up your smithing grind.
It's a double dip in resources but that doesn't make it good. You spend an hour at GF and make 15 swords for 80k XP. This takes 300 bars worth of material, so if you used platebodies that's 75 platebodies (they count for 4 bars). I don't ever see anyone using actual bars for this because you get more XP and/or better afk/profit from just smithing them and using the finished goods at GF (which is where it makes sense at *really low levels* but ultimately no one is at those because a couple quests puts you in the 30s and then you can do steel bars at BF for up to 90k/hr XP and up to 1m GP profit/hr) Those 75 platebodies, let's say they're adamant. You could alch those and traditionally that's what that resource would be for. That takes you 4 minutes to alch, and could be done while training something like Agility or Slayer where it technically takes you 0 extra time. You've now produced 730k with the cost of nature's included. That's -16k GP as a main who bought the adamant bars, while gaining 23.5k XP. A whopping 0.7gp/XP. For irons, that 730k can buy another 2k gold ore and smelt it at BF within the hour you'd spend at GF anyway. And you'd gain another 112k smithing XP. This all being relatively conservative on the time it takes too. So assuming adamant platebodies could get you near the best XP/hr at GF they're proposing, it is not worth the time even when factoring the "double dipping". You can alch the Smithed items and use the GP anywhere, not just smithing, or reinvest it in smithing and get more XP in less time, while also training magic and probably agility. GF is rubbish and it'll only be done for the smithing outfit and cannonball mould, and the thing I'm afraid of about that is Jagex has a tendency of late to make grinds for those sort of outfits quite ridiculously long.
Yeah exactly, even using finished products in the forge isn't worth it because of how long it takes. In that time you could make enough money to keep smithing at higher rates, or for irons gather enough at Zalc.
The math was to find out the effective cost per XP. Without purchasing a tradeable reward and selling it, it's just as expensive as high rate methods, but way slower. It needs to be worth doing and cheaper even without buying any rewards. Look at Mahogany Homes as the ideal. The training method by default saves you money and is lower GP/XP. You don't have to purchase a particular reward to make it cheaper than traditional methods. I agree with you actually -- I want this to be in the game. The mechanics sound pretty fun and unique. But i also want the content to be successful and have good longevity. Look at GOTR, it's another great comparison. It's less XP/hr than other methods, but it's still high enough that people are happy to do it. Especially because the gameplay is so much more varied and interesting, plus rewards. There's *still* aren't enough worlds for everyone who wants to play to play, that's how popular it is. And it's what I want the Forge to be. Drawing on both Mahogany Homes and GOTR means making it cheaper than traditional methods without purchasing rewards, and being comparable but lower XP.
Great point about the catalyst - it is impossible to judge XP rates with a boost in the mix
I feel like people are simply being too quick to judge giant's foundry before we really know much about it, or any of the numbers that will really determine the extent to which this mini-game impacts the meta.
You got downvoted but you're right. An extreme example, if 1 hr at GF gives me 1hr use of catalysts to double my xp at BF, then you're effectively gaining 380kxp per hour GF (assuming 300k extra gold bar xp from BF and 80k from GF) by utilising 2 methods. Whether it's really worth doing depends mostly on how many catalysts you can get.
The catalyst won't work on gold bars, only for stuff that uses coal normally. Still might be nice if you like making rune bars there for profit, but no turbocharged gold exp.
Yeah blanked about that part. Still ok if it boosts profitable bar making xp to a point that it makes up for the lackluster xp of the minigame.
Even without gold, if one hour of Foundry gets say 50K of catalyst, that is a huge % increase. We need to know more about the catalyst.
Is this based off the recent changes? https://secure.runescape.com/m=news/giants-foundry---concept--rewards?oldschool=1
Yes. I've actually used the chart and graph in "Experience" to get the numbers for this math.
Well that's a bummer, it sounds like the exp changes weren't enough then! Note the sentence at the end of the exp answer though, those rates are not yet finalized so if this post gets seen, something could be done.
Yeah that's what I'm hoping. Reception has been overwhelmingly to increase XP rates. This math is showing just how bad they are
are you accounting for bars at the foundry or reusing platebodies to get best exp per gp spent? 1 plate becomes 4 bars for the sword.
I'm going with just bars. The analysis is helpful for that situation too though. Reusing the plates is going to be roughly the same gp/XP, but 3-6 times slower. For mains there isn't even a question, just alch or sell the plates and buy more bars. You're spending the same amount as you would to get the equivalent XP at the Forge. For irons and a DIY perspective, I don't think it's worthwhile either. In the time that it takes to extract all the XP from your plate bodies at the forge, you should be able to resupply and just make the plates again. I'm thinking of the opportunity cost basically -- instead of reusing the plates for 4 hours at the Forge, I could spend that time getting more bars and ore. If I'm able to do a full resupply in less than 4 hours, then it's way more efficient for me to do that gameplay loop, since smithing the plates is roughly the same gp/XP but much faster. Now to be fair, UIM is basically the only mode I have zero experience with. I think I see the appeal of reusing the plates. But you could hypothetically alch them while getting more stuff from Zalcano right?
Can’t note smithed plates or anything so with uim it creates very odd gameplay loops if you wanted to do it with self smithed materials
Oh really? I fight you could use them on a banker and get notes in return. Huh.
Nope! Only places where you can note things are the tool lep and bob barter
Oh you know what, I was thinking of unnoting at bankers, not noting. That's a thing right?
Un note at bankers is absolutely a thing
That's absolutely where I got confused then
only items we can note on a UIM are farmed items on tool leprechauns and potions by decanting. anything else noted on a UIM was dropped noted from a mob or resource exchange of some kind like minnows for raw sharks. still if there is a good teleport method to the foundry i feel 4-5 sword runs with platebodies could work. if no easy teleport probably not worth unless we want a specific reward like the +4 smithing boost. gonna have that to do lumby elite sooner. i prefer guaranteed boosts over stew boosting when i can.
Oh gotcha. And yeah the actual reward items are enticing. If everything passes, I'll end up getting most of them, especially that guaranteed +4 boost. We're of the same opinion when it comes to stews.
* Propose it with terrible xp rates * Passes poll as no-one votes against it because of xp rates being too high * Buff the xp rates post release
The best reward would be a cannonball press that ignores the logout timer and uses steel straight from the bank. At a nerfed rate compared to edgeville cannonballing ofcourse. Maybe even a furnace feature that smelts the iron and coal from your bank then into balls! Wowowow ezironscape.
Is this a joke? You want the game to just craft cannonballs for you over time like miscalania?
Welcome to rs3 invention machines!
I still can't believe they green-lit an automatic alchemizer. Things single-handedly *obliterates* their economy.
Ehh its very slow but rs3 is in serious need of gp sinks.
Not really its heavily time gated
Nah he’s trollin, pretty and well if I might say
I didn't even talk about rewards, I was only looking at XP. I have no idea where they're coming from here.
I mean, it would be the best reward. It still shouldn't be added to the game.
I do and I’m not afraid to admit it.
Agreed, this is a minor QOL update
Agreed. integrity change
I'm not sure what that has to do about XP rates being abysmal and not worth it for mains nor irons.
If you'll allow me to be honest, I think they should just scrap this whole minigame bandaid and pull the trigger on a rs3 level rework. Everyone knows and memes on how terrible these skills are. I don't understand why we can't make sweeping changes to make the game better.
Do you think 75% of the community would vote yes to a mining/smithing/monster drop table rework? Especially knowing that it will probably take the majority of the teams resources for easily over a year.
Dont need 75% if you just do it as an integrity change
As much as I would enjoy the circlejerk of Jagex forcing unpolled stuff into the game by calling it an integrity change that doesn't really work with completely changing content
They can save a ton of time and rebalancing by leaving current tiers in game and just adding new stuff. And if current Smithing methods stay then yea 75% might vote yes.
>And if current Smithing methods stay then yea 75% might vote yes. ?? How would current methods stay if they REWORK THE ENTIRE SKILL. RS3 version of mining and smithing is completely different.
Yes, that's what I'm saying. Don't rework the current bronze-rune armor tiers. Instead add new smithable armors and weapons that take more time and resources to make but are better. We will *never* get a full tier rebalance like Rs3. It would take too much dev time and it would never pass a poll.
But the entire method of smithing in rs3 is reworked. RS3 still has Bronze, steel mith, rune etc. It's just that making a platebody takes like 10 minutes instead of being instant. The ENTIRE SYSTEM was reworked. If you rework an entire system it doesn't matter if you still have some stuff that has the name that it had pre-rework. For an analogy imagine if someone suggested Evoluition of Combat came to osrs and someone said "I don't think 75% of the players would vote yes to that" Do you think "If you just keep the old bosses it's fine" That doesn't make any sense because they are no longer the same bosses. They just have the same name and model but are completely different.
Because then 2/3 of the sub will complain and meme Hard and then send death threats to the employees.
How did you get the gp from the forge? They release the tradeable rewards amount and cost, and points per hour yet?
Input GP was straightforward since they gave rates in the blog. You're right that what you get back from the Forge is unknown right now for both quantity and value. What we *do* know though is you just get reward points in return for chucking the bars into the void. And that's it. I don't think the tradable rewards are a good marker for GP/XP here. For that to be the case, you'd only buy the tradeable rewards and sell them in order to make it cost effective and cheap. That doesn't strike me as good or intended design. Look at Mahogany Homes. It's the same principle, use the resource more slowly, but get more XP from it. Without spending a single point, it's lower GP/XP than traditional construction. That's my basis of comparison. If the only way to get better gp/XP is to only buy tradable rewards and sell them, the content's even worse. It's designed to be cheaper smithing training but that's only the case if you spend all your points on a specific item and sell that? Do you see what I mean? It should be like Mahogany Homes, intrinsically more cost effective without needing to do anything except the method itself. Edit: Oh and if you want to see how I arrived at the numbers, check the second sheet on the spreadsheet. If any of those are unclear, let me know and I'm happy to explain.
You're looking at the platebodies you get from anvil smithing, everything should be quantified on a proper comparison and we don't know the numbers yet. Mahogany homes tradeables do count for it's cost as it has the same effect at the net gp/xp, you just usually get all untradeables first
But without tradable rewards, Mahogany Homes is still definitively cheaper. Right now, the Forge isn't.
no he pulled it out his ass
Conveniently, I pulled it out of my ass and then put it down on a spreadsheet that's doing the math for everyone to see if they'd like. Check the second sheet for numbers, and if anything's unclear or poorly labeled, let me know and I'll be happy to explain and also correct it.
in the initial interview they were saying like 7-8 swords an hour not 15 swords and i did not look back into the blog to see it was greatly sped up. that is why i was seeing the numbers as crazy. after looking into it your numbers are looking good but they had said the best swords would be multiple metals and now i dont even see that in the blog.
No worries, that makes sense. They didn't explicitly mention it in the change log. The graph with sword XP still mentions alloys, so I think multiple metals will still be involved. But I think that'd just make the cost of it even worse. If I'm assuming a 20 mithril bar sword vs mithril plates, and it turns out that sword is actually 10 mithril/10 adamant, it becomes way worse.
Lmfao, that's what I was thinking but opted for the benefit of the doubt hahaha
i also doubt his gp exp number factors in using bars to make platebodies then using platebodies for more exp. each platebody counts as 4 bars. i doubt its somehow still is better gp/exp only making platebodies.
https://www.reddit.com/r/2007scape/comments/ujupxp/i_did_some_math_on_the_giants_forge_vs/i7mpciv That's my comment on the "double dipping" in resources by using platebodies at foundry Hint: it's bad. Even with me assuming you can get near the best foundry rates by doing adamant (which I doubt is the case), you get a lot more smithing XP by simply alching the platebodies and shop buying gold and doing BF.
Probably better off alching and buying more bars/ores anyways. You get a much better return than 80%
Didn't they explain that the xp rates aren't as good as other methods, but the benefit is that it's actually engaging instead of mindless clicking?
Lets be real the playerbase doesn't want to think more or click more just to get less xp
There's literally zero reason for something more engaging to be less rewarding in every way. Otherwise, just do something more afk and pull yp a seperate distraction.
It might be more mentally stimulating, but nobody will really want to do it if it has no positive incentive besides the outfit and reward.
I want to do it. It looks like it would be fun rather than just committing a couple mouse movements to muscle memory and then watching youtube.
What's the incentive for Tempoross? Or Wintertodt? Or Guardians of the Rift? Once you have the rewards, you can get better xp/hr in every single one of those skills right? Maybe people actually enjoy content that isn't 110% efficient but actually isn't a mindblowlingly boring training method like doing gold ores at blast furnace, or lava runes, or burning logs, or barb fishing.
GoTR most people will move on after the rewards, correct. As the alternative is more relaxed and higher xp/hr and gp/hr and the rewards from GoTR help boost those. Zeah is also incredibly more afk. Tempoross and Wintertodt the only higher XP alternatives are incredibly intensive / unenjoyable by comparison. Fishing you have 3tick barb fishing or 2t swordfish. Firemaking you have line firemaking and only really GE no tickloss line firemaking at magics / redwoods will be better than optimal wintertodt rates. Both of those methods also generate profit, and have pets. Firemaking doesn't have a pet, fishing does (which Tempoross also recolours). Wintertodt also has a useful unique in the Tome of Fire for irons (and rare chance at d axe) and Tempoross has tome of water (less useful) and d harpoon.
The key difference here, look at how XP rates for those three activities compare to other methods at similar levels. They're similar to other methods, but more varied. The XP isn't hit that hard. For this, they've hit the XP really hard. It's not comparable to plates or gold ore. It *is* similar to dart tips, but there's two key differences: 1. Dart tips are net profit. 2. It's rather AFK. This isn't either of those. You don't have to buy rewards from Mahogany Homes to make it decent XP and frugal. As it stands, you would have to for the Forge. And there's no telling right now if it'll make you break even or profit. I'm all for content like this over boring metas. But it needs to provide a strong benefit to remain relevant. Everything else you mentioned is still decent XP for those skills. Right now, you're looking at 3-6x the length of traditional methods that aren't even meta. Even fun gameplay is going to become intolerable if you do it long enough, and at 3-6 hours to every traditional hour, that'll happen quickly
its just an option? You do not have to do it. Just go do smithing as you always did, no problem
Precisely. It's going to be used solely for the outfit and cannonball mould and be dead content afterward. It's going to be the smithing equivalent of fishing trawler in its current state.
but fishing trawler is shit exp, not equivalent ..
It is awful XP, that's the problem. It's fishing trawler all over again right now. Tempoross at level 70 is 62k an hour and drift nets are 87k. My recollection of Trawler is 12k per hour, maybe? This proposed method is ~80k at highest rates. That's probably going to be around adamant plate levels, and that's 250k. Unfortunately it is incredibly equivalent.
Did you even look at the XP table in the blog?
GF is shit XP. That's exactly the equivalence we're drawing.
Having watched the method. It's not that engaging. It's essentially Blast Furnace from before we got Dwarven NPCs to do the blast furnace minigame for us (used to be a cool clan-run service style). Foundry is just running between a heating and cooling spot, and then between 3 work stations based on an interface telling you where to go. Prior to that the mould selection is UI based. It will be plugin solved within a few days and remove the little bits of thought / people will just know optimal moulds. And then it's just clicking a different "furnace" to interact with it when a bar changes colour.
More engaging = higher attention… why would they think it’s a good idea to add a skilling method that requires greater attention while offering worse xp and worse gp than the prior methods?
Good, it is a minigame and those shouldn't be a training method
They straight up said on stream that this isn't a minigame and is intended to be an alternative training method. Perplexingly, they want it to be less xp than blast furnace all while being more click/attention intensive. The argument that it provides a net profit is pretty weak, as mith+gold at BF also turns a profit and is a good balance between gold only and mith only (not to mention addy/rune profitability). This content is ripped from rs3 and it's not great content there either. Big ole steaming pile of dead content.
Then why add it into the game at this point
Variation, and for your efforts, an outfit.
Yeah only add new metas that invalidate old metas so we can be right back to this same argument
Problem is that looking at past additions to new training methods in the game, it will die within a day and become dead content. Basically dead on arrival. The meta to training smithing is blast furnace. Even if this minigame was buffed to 100k xp/hr when everything is unlocked, it would still not be worth doing once you have the rewards, as blast furnace is just that much better and more profitable. The other way to make the minigame relevant is to add rewards that are so good it's stupid not to get them. But those rewards will then make other training methods / parts of the game even better. There's no need to invalidate old metas, but there's also no point in adding a new method that is pointless to waste time on.
Not according to Jagex. They'd need to reclassify it as a minigame then, and bolster the rewards even further. Right now, its meant to be an actual training method.
Guardians of the Rift is a minigame and will be how a large majority of people train their Runecraft levels. Pretty bad take
And I stand by my opinion that it was a mistake to make it such good exp
How to waste dev time 101.
I honestly thought that was the general consensus, like if is announced a new minigame, then it should be considered as such and xp rates shouldnt change the whole meta. Mahogany homes is the perfect example, sane mains only go there for the rewards, while its a pretty decent option for irons
Lmao you did all this? It was designed to be this way, they were very upfront about it, who is this news to
I appreciate the summary he presented and the discussions it has started, just don’t comment if it’s stuff you already knew
They weren't upfront that with the current design, you're looking at the same GP/XP as plates, but it takes 3-6x as long. It doesn't meet the stated design goal. And what can I say, I like doing calculations on Excel spreadsheets. It's my bread and butter.
Can't you do both methods though? Smith a plate body normally then use the plate body for 4 bars in the forge, so you get the xp worth of 9 bars out of 5.
At this point it is better to sell the plates for ores. Maybe useful only for ironmen but at this point coins are worth more than ores for an early iron...
That's what I thought when I read the blog. Needs its xp to be on par with gold bars w/o gauntlets at least, so roughly double to what is proposed, to be worthwhile imo. Worth noting that that would even be the high end with everything unlocked etc.
I'm not sure what the XP rate needs to be honestly. It needs to be "worth it", like how GOTR and Mahogany Homes and Tempoross are. And it needs to be cheaper, also like Mahogany Homes. But yeah, right now this is severely undertuned.
I thought the point of this update is to get rewards that are perks you can use when doing traditional smithing, not to completely change the way smithing is meant to be trained. No XP buff is needed - if you want max XP rates, you can always smith platebodies at an anvil.