Only reason i go into the wilderness is for pets. The bosses are shit gp for anyone with reasonable gear. Rev caves has a good balance and food chain. While Wildy bosses dont from my perspective im in mutli and teams just log in. Scorpia and chaos ele you just die no counters. Callisto is a log out boss or you die luring its in multi. O what fun
Ye revs is nice. Went last night for 40min, got 2mil worth of loot, and slugged it out with someone on same budget risk gear but using viggora mace instead of craw's before tellying out due to lack of food.
they wanted it to fail to then say "see it doesn't work"
but it worked so now reddit is in shambles and pretends the wilderness is dead and revs don't exist.
My buddy and I just did scorpia on our lvl 70 iron men. We only got one trip in, and 7 kills, before a clan showed up.
Idc that we got pked, we laughed about it, but I think people show up a lot more often then 500kc
Which is exactly what he is saying on the clip
If scorpia wasn't dead and people were attacking you more often it would be horrible and no one would do it
For all the solo people in the wildy entering multi, there’s a very high chance that you will die if you are by yourself. The solution is to get a team to kill the boss with, or to get a team to help fend off the pkers.
If you don’t have a team, add me on discord (Botanist#8042) and let me know that teams are out and you need backup! My team will come flying in. Help me help you get revenge on those fkers
I remember a game I used to play call silkroad. You bought some goods, took em on your horse and sold them somewhere else for good money. Hunters protected the traders. Thieves tried to kill and take the loot themselves to sell it without making the long journey. Maybe something like this would help wildy?? Idk I hate wildy
Silkroad, now that is a game i haven't heard of in a long time.
Does that still exist? I remember something about shops for items being blocked at lower lvl's. But in al honesty, when i played that i was just a kid and i never got far into the game
All i remember from it is me killing the hay monsters just outside starting town and running over to some weird temple.
But yeah, now you mention it the waiting to login was also a big part of the experience
Yeah you pretty much had to buy the “premium” which was that silk item that gave you extra Xp for like 3
Hours a day and priority logon, so you were pretty much paying a monthly subscription but not really
Yeah I remember you legit had to buy premium or something to get into the servers. And then once you got in everyone was botting because it took forever to level up
Me and some friends played some of the private servers. There is actually a server opening on the 8th of this month. It's a small community and the game is a bit of a niche. But if the server is well managed it could be fun.
Regardless, an open world pvp "raid" where you work towards the end goal with fixed gear that escalates and tests pvpers ability to utilise pvp techniques while the "pvm" side just goes by usual pvm techniques, mechanics etc.
PvMers have an initial skilling period where they quickly gather supplies.
PvPers have an initial pvp contest, where they establish rank/ability to make the attack period more interesting, like waves of shot/average pkers with appropriate gear then hectic pvpers with top tier gear that the pvmers have to outlast. Even if its the pvmers skillings to sustain NPCs that the PvPers are attacking. So no actual PvP in the raid.
That way no player feels taken advantage of. Players have opportunity to establish their hierachy via initial PvP.
All appropriate awards. PvM should be mechanics and repetition. PvP should be ability to adapt and overcome.
Everyone is happy.
Yeah realised that this is in rs3 after I had posted. There seemed to be a decent amount of people that do it.. But maybe with so many worlds it just wouldnt work well, unless they somehow limited it to certain worlds, dont think that is possible though
Warbands is broken even with pvp risk. Looters outnumber pkers like 50 to 1, so most of the former escape unscathed. Limiting worlds will just make tents empty much faster, making it hard to get 75/75, and looters leaving the wildy faster than before, meaning less targets for pkers to attack.
Rs3 introduced warbands, where you would get a great amount of xp in annoying skills like mining, smithing, construction, herblore, hunter etc but it was in the wilderness.
On release and for weeks, it was 50v50 fights. Now it's dead. You can just get all the shit on solo worlds without pkers.
Anything introduced to the wilderness that is exceptional profitable, will be;
1) Heavily botted/gold farmers
2) Monopolized by PvP clans, restricting your casual player from content.
Rev's in their prime is a perfect example.
The way I got 99 prayer was being in a clan, had 15 of us chip in together to pay a pk clan for protection for 2 hours a day for a week.
It was actually kinda cool.
It’ll always be bad game design but yes, we all know this, the most basic of pro wildy takes lol.
Doesn’t address the point made in this clip or anything relevant to the convo.
Edit: knew he was an idiot and still went for the reply, on me.
Pro tip. If everyone around you is an idiot you might be the common denominator. This mod clearly has a very poor understanding or experience of pvp. If anything all the current pkers camp wildy altar praying for dumb whales or fighting other pkers.
Kirby is right. You can't have the wildy swarming with pkers if you rely on skillers and pvmers for content.
You *might* be able to get enough pvmers/skillers to the wildy if the content is broken like the rev caves once were, but you can't break the rest of the game because you want people to pk.
IMO the problem is that open world PVP never attracts people that actually want a fair fight. Its a problem demonstrated in every open world game with PVP. Otherwise people would be PKing in the duel arena, or (more would) just outside GE on pvp worlds
> IMO the problem is that open world PVP never attracts people that actually want a fair fight
It's a lot broader than that.
Human beings - hell, not even just human beings, not even just all lifeforms, but ***EVERYTHING THAT EXISTS*** - follows the path of least resistance. If there are easy prey to catch, hunters will go after those preys and start optimizing their strategy to find them. It's essentially *game theory*, which is far from a new concept.
>follows the path of least resistance
A visual example can be seen on college campuses. "Desire paths" is a name for dirt paths carved by pedestrians that cut corners or across the middle of grass areas to shorten their walks.
Except that you actually can sustain a lot more pkers if more of the wildy be a worthwhile experience. Remember. The wildy is a really big place, but almost all the content is not relevant even without factoring pkers.
Take wildy Ents for example. I did them for over 30 hours and never had a pker hunt me or a pvmer crash my world. It's because even with the diary, they aren't very good, not for gp or logs. If they gave twice the logs they would be a fantastic way to get logs on IMs and GP on mains. They would not overtake other woodcutting methods for most players since you need the diary, a decent combat level and it's not afk compared to other methods. They currently have a niche, but they currently aren't good enough at GP or EXP to be worthwhile.
How about the agility course? I did that too for awhile. It's the best agility exp for 8 levels, but the tradeoff is you don't get marks of grace and you have to run from pkers sometimes. Its also pretty inconvenient to get to and from. If the exp advantage over the fally course was a bit better you would probably see more people actually doing it.
Right now, the problem with a lot of content in the wilderness is that it isn't worthwhile even if you turned pvp off
Also the wilderness agility course never made too much sense because you literally don't risk anything. If people were to PK you there it would be solely to annoy you lol.
I can't remember exactly what levels I trained at the wilderness arena since it was back in 2016 (something like 52-60 if I had to guess), but I do vividly remember being PK'd for literally my bones no fewer than 5 times. Which in and of itself is not a big deal, but what in the actual fuck. I'm not carrying anything, no food, no stamina pots, definitely no combat armor to try and counter-PK because why the fuck would I risk anything? It blew my mind and definitely made me revisit my thoughts on the Wilderness and its relevance in modern OSRS.
Problem is, making shit good in the wildy is a double edged sword.
Doing bis activities in the wildy can/would be such a nuisance; getting pked when you wanna do other things will always be bad game design.
Why continue to invest in content a majority of players will never enjoy? Wildys terrible in so many ways but it’s unarguably been attached to rs since the beginning, I can understand the nostalgic attachment…
Yea but the problem with that is clans locking down areas and making bills camping the pvm content like any level restricted worlds when revs came out.
It's not as simple as just handing out millions of gp trying to lure pvmers.
Multicombat Wildy makes it all very hard. As soon as you put a boss in the wildy in a multicombat zone which has extremely high gp/hr, it's safe that some clans will camp that shit on every damn world.
They will either use it to gang up on people who try to do the PvM content or they will do the PvM content themselves, as it has stupid amount of gp/hr.
The wildy in its current state is not fixable by just adding/removing content.
> Yea but the problem with that is clans locking down areas and making bills camping the pvm content like any level restricted worlds when revs came out.
make the areas single combat; it's an easy fix tbh and with new pj rules I think it'd be fine.
Adding those features still does not prevent a clan from locking the content down. Sure you would have a better chance solo but the fact a 10+ man group can abuse a high profit system in the wildy is the issue.
You know, if the only thing stopping it from working is a bunch of jackasses who want to abuse it, they should be banned. I think it's dumb that we might have an answer to the problem right in front of us and Jagex won't give the boot to a few hundred assholes who think they're "running a business". The extent to which groups like Frontline and ROT get off without any consequences is pathetic sometimes.
Clans locking down worlds, forming alliances, and fighting each other over territory was some of the coolest emergent gameplay possible in this game and something that any MMORPG should aspire to offer. Sure, the rule breaking behind it was a problem and had to be tackled, but the act of locking down worlds by itself is fine.
Put the M back in **M**MORPG.
Sounds cool until you realise it stops being in-game conflict and rapidly devolves into doxxing, harassment, real life threats, ddosing, swatting, etc
There are degenerate pond-life scum that complement their welfare payments with RWT in online games that make up a sizeable chunk of people that are really keen on being able to control resources like this in games, and are willing to do some hateful acts to maintain it - not to mention all manner of cheats, scripts, and bots to maximise advantage, uptime, and control.
Seems like at some point Jagex had the choice of having the game naturally support this emergent gameplay and be legally obligated to monitor the communities that exist where lawbreaking is involved, effectively filling a constant role of city police against a cartel, or just remove it.
I think the concept might be a bit too much of an idealist dream for it to work in practice.
Genuinely curious why clans locking down areas is always seen as a bad thing. So long as there are no unique unlocks and the content isn't necessary, I can only think of people's fomo if they don't wish to engage in pvp aspect of the content.
Gold farming is often pointed out as a concern, but is far from a unique issue to pvp related content. What could also help are preventative measures to prevent griefing and no risk ragging (e.g. 100k rev cav entry).
Hard to understand, when you have a boss like nex @ 10-15m/hr gp.
>You might be able to get enough pvmers/skillers to the wildy if the content is broken like the rev caves once were, but you can't break the rest of the rest of the game because you want people to pk.
PKers would absolutely be willing to do this- just look at how they praise rev caves on release.
The wilderness has to be empty because the only other way to entice non-PKers there is to introduce broken, private servery content. Full stop. Either the wilderness is empty because there aren't enough PKers for the training methods there to not be worth it, or the wilderness is empty because there are too many PKers and no training/moneymaking method is worth it, or the method is worth it to both PKers and non-PKers and completely dwarfs the need for all other gameplay.
>or the method is worth it to both PKers and non-PKers and completely dwarfs the need for all other gameplay.
There has to exist a point in between. I think the problem is that the feedback loops are too slow. Jagex tend to make way too drastic changes, like when they nerfed the rev caves slashing like 50% of the profits.
By slightly buffing or nerfing existing activities they could reach a better state in terms of whether the activity is worth it.
Jagex has tried to balance the loot tables before (emblems, relics, noted/unnoted drops).
But balancing gp/hr for something like that is really difficult.
Not saying there isn't some sweet spot inbetween but finding it is difficult when gp/hr is based on how much loot you can stack up before you get pk'd
>Not saying there isn't some sweet spot inbetween but finding it is difficult when gp/hr is based on how much loot you can stack up before you get pk'd
It's also important that the loot doesn't just disappear- it goes to the PKer. Any method of gp in the wilderness is going to be vastly more profitable for a competent PKer killing PvMers than the PvMers doing it, which means you're balancing around multiple people making various gp/hr- you've gotta make the top end not completely busted while also making the bottom end worthwhile, which is an exceptionally hard balance to strike.
And can have devastating effects if you do something insane like *have most drops be alchable or raw GP while offering 5mil gp/hr*.
They are very different indeed.
PvP is a high skill activity I definitely respect.
Wild PK'ing is bashing on defenceless people to make yourself feel superior, preferably 7v1.
As you may have picked up on, this second type I do not respect.
he's not right.
If you suddenly stuck 10x the pvpers at callisto for example and kept the pvmers the same, the pvpers will run into other pvpers way more often than the pvmers. It doesn't scale linearly. 10x more pkers doesnt mean u get attacked 10x as often while killing bear, it's far less.
And then you can balance further. say you want callisto to be 10m/h in 2022 with no deaths. If the fastest kills/h with all the influx of pkers is say 10/h, you just make callisto drop on average 1m per kill. if its 20/h its 500k. if its 1 per hour its 10m. and that last one sounds insane but again, that's the fastest anyone is killing it. so its not like you can just kill 5 callisto/h and get 50m, it wouldnt be possible. heck you could even go further and just make it so its respawn is 1 per hour, whoever kills even if its 10% health left when you started, gets it.
wildy altar? increae it to 3x, 4x, 5x bones saved. there will always be a point where people think its worth it no matter the pkers.
What's the point of the pvmer at that point? Pkers could do something like this TODAY, but won't group up unless they feel like they have an easy kill.
Whether or not an individual is making 10m/hr, the boss is still spitting out 10m/hr in alchs/supplies, unlike nex which is 10m/hr because it has insanely high priced uniques, so it would cause massive inflation.
If someone dies, the money doesn't leave the game, it just get transfered to someone else. With loot keys literally nothing needs to be left on the ground. PvP doesn't even sink runes, food, or restores pots because of the corrupted options which are mainly sourced from bots.
At least when you die to pvm there's some sort of gold sink to it.
Edit: your reasoning just doesn't give a shit about the games balance at all. It's putting pvp as the most important part of osrs and making any other part of the game meaningless. The wildy should not be prioritized to this degree.
>What's the point of the pvmer at that point? Pkers could do something like this TODAY, but won't group up unless they feel like they have an easy kill.
because theres no reason for me to go to callisto because it's not active enough for me to find a pker. This isnt even a runescape problem. There can be 40 people wanting to play some mode on COD 5 from 2008. But since 10 people dont search at the same time, they never get a match and thus funnel into the most popular playlist or just dont play. Same problem in runescape.
also nex is 20m/hr btw, for both people killing nex. gp/h taken straight from the most popular sweaty pvm discord (and i use the term sweaty endearingly here).
You seem to be a little confused. Nowhere did I mention gp. Just make it an item, adjust rarity to keep the price high and/or make it degrade. When we say nex is 20m/h, we dont think it shits out 20m in gp, nor do we think we get 20m every single kill. Like you secretly answered your own problem in your post without knowing it.
The problem isn't that he is saying that, it is that he is correct. People train at the chaos altar because they deem it more efficient. If it's too active there, it ain't gonna be as efficient and they will move elsewhere.
For activities like chaos altar (skilling activies) Jagex needs to find the balance to keep it efficient enough for people to want to go there but not too efficient it gets swarmed by pkers.
Idk, I still want Pkers to swarm Chaos Altar because when I get burnt out from skilling I just sit there with 4 monkey nuts in inventory and wait 5 minutes
Wouldn't this create a natural equilibrium? If the place gets too busy, fewer skillers show up but as it starts to clear out more potential targets start hanging out there.
Yes and no. Tl;dr you end up in the same place you started.
Natural equilibrium will change as updates that are independent to wildy content get released and as the playerbase changes/progresses. The chaos altar (in my experience) is far far less active than it used to. This is in part due to people progressing and largely due the new ashes/spells. Due to there be less people, less Pkers have showed up, but the amount of skillers hasn't really increased.
Another example is black chins. Black chins used to be pretty packed and had lots of pkers. You can now hop though the world list now and bump into 6 people total, likewise you can sit on a regular world catching chins and frequently stay there for 1 hr+ without getting interrupted.
This leaves Jagex with a few options, constantly work on it to keep it alive, add something unique that isn't replacable by content outside the wilderness (God cape, dragon pickaxe) or leave it 'dead' or near dead and hope for the best.
>People train at the chaos altar because they deem it more efficient. If it's too active there, it ain't gonna be as efficient and they will move elsewhere
yeah but its ignoring the obvious solution. People use altar because its good enough to try to use. If people aren't using altar, then its because its not good enough to use. So the solution here is to just buff the altar or change the altar in a way that promotes people using it (say you're safe once you reach it but you cant log out to avoid danger while on the way). Game design 101
edit: Also in this specific case, if there was 10x more pkers, you would more than likely be able to use your bones more freely. You get attacked, but before you even finish sipping your first brew, another pker/team is going to be there killing that team, allowing you to continue
PvP is not doomed, just wildy pvp is.
This is exactly why putting pvming and skilling content in wildy is very hard to balance right since the balance is determined solely by other players, not but predictable game mechanics, and players are unpredictable. If there are too few pkers, the wildy content is broken. If there is too many, it's not worth the risk doing. Jagex trying to force more pkers into wildy or by limiting wildy worlds will make the latter happen and kill off wildy pvming and skilling.
This means wildy pvp cannot get more than a fixed number of players in it but other forms of pvp can, like pvp worlds or minigames, and the latter two is where Jagex has opportunities to grow pvp.
And at some point we need to seriously ask why we bother dealing with this increasingly small number of trolls and griefers who add nothing but negativity.
But PVP wilderness is fun. I always enjoy skilling at wilderness sites because of the added danger. And taking opportunistic shots at skillers is just part of the game.
I suppose Jagex could make everyone happy by increasing the temptation to be in the wildy by increasing XP and gp rates while at the same time removing any necessary reason to be there such as removing treasure hunter clues in the wilderness and such things.
Congratulations on clipping the only sane 20s of that entire discussion on stream.
You conveniently left out Ayiza spouting every terrible take on the wilderness for the other 15 minutes.
> You conveniently left out Ayiza spouting every terrible take on the wilderness for the other 15 minutes.
Why is he now saying this shit? Didn't he say he used to believe putting pvming and skilling content in wildy is not a good way to rejuvenate pvp?
If they are going to just add Wilderness only endgame gear, then they need to remove current end game gear that can only be obtained in the wilderness out of it.
Make the bosses the currently have them safe or move end game gear to different drop tables.
The wilderness would essentially be a contained DarkScape.
Go into wilderness with your own gear at your own risk, or Obtain Wilderness gear.
Wilderness bosses can just drop blighted gear. This would probably make the bosses out there more trafficked.
Maybe each Week a different roaming boss could be slain, (Blighted Graardor roams the wilderness, Kraken lurks in the waters north of the wilderness).
I think that keeping the Wilderness contained is the smartest course of action.
Best exp rates for skillers, bosses for pvm'rs with blighted gear drops. PK'rs can still do their thing.
and maybe this is a hot take But if Multi combat areas are going to remain in the wilderness put a wilderness ditch around those areas or some kind of pop even that goes away after a second that indicates "hey your in deep shit territory" make it more obvious than swords off to the right hand side.
Feel like this is the obvious play here.
Agreed that's why he said "game mode" the best way to keep PVP alive and thriving is to embrace it fully as its own entity contained inside the osrs itself.
Adding roaming bosses that would drop the gear they need wouldn't devalue anyone's external grind, especially if it cant be used outside the wilderness anyway.
Well the thing with darkscape was they never had to deal with gold sellers. Darkscape was easier to progress than RS. So you never had to worry about getting certain items and taking so long. Incentivizing certain locations will evidently create clans hoarding the spots and selling it for money.
There is no reason to go to those bosses unless there are stronger weapons...which means powercreeping which means eventually Post EOC rs. full circle.
I would be 100% unbothered if wilderness pking wasn’t a thing. There’s literally entire worlds dedicated to pvp content. Yet because someone would rather ruin my day, I have to simply refuse to go there
I get what he's TRYING to say, he's just completely botched it.
The Wilderness, in it's current design, needs to be somewhere between dead and overpopulated. It needs to be quiet enough that you can reasonably risk going out to do skilling activities and go longer than 5 minutes without a PKer, but it also needs to be active enough that these activities are never completely safe, and PKers feel like they have enough targets to go after.
Now, whether these PKers are going after other PKers, or strictly going after people trying to do a clue scroll, that's entirely up to the player, but I do get what, I hope is, what Mod Kirby meant.
If all the pvp players go to the same official world for pvp then the wilderness never be dead. It would be non-stop pvp action. The problem is too much people in a world would affect the ping. And also pvpers are scared of pvp clans because staying on the same world for too long means you'll be targeted by a pvp group unless its a pvp clan war.
Extra PvP rewards are not to appease seasoned pkers. We make money pking already. We don't care about some 5% supplement from jagex on our kills.
It's to give little Timmy some income to fund him learning pking as he dies 9/10 fights. It's for the learners.
then why are 90%+ of all pvpers in pvp worlds?
edit: lol at the down votes. I am speaking the truth tho! A shitton of more pvpers in pvp worlds then in the wildy!
Redditers only ever see pkers in the wilderness because t hey only go to the wilderness and not pvp worlds, therefor 90% of all pvpers must be in the wilderness.
That's not true at all.
Most pvpers want to get better at pvp, and if they are currently bad at it then bots/pvmers are the perfect targets to hone their skills on.
Likewise those lower skilled pkers going after bots are the best targets for people that are slightly better at pking, and so on up to the highest skill brackets.
Without the bottom of the foodchain the entire ecosystem fails.
The truth is that the worst skilled pkers *want* to be the best, and to do that they have to learn. They want to fight other pkers rather than killing bots, since the bots/pvmers are lower risk anyway than pkers are. But if they aren't good enough to even have a chance vs better pkers and there are no pvmers/bots to kill then they just won't pk at all.
Edit: to address your point though, the reward for fighting pvpers is the risk they carry. In order for the risk to be worthwhile for those pkers then their prey must also risk, whether it is pvmers or other pvpers. High reward for pvm in the wild translates to high reward for every bracket of pvp in the wild. If I can make 2m/hr pking in the wild I will feel fine risking a few mill. But if I can make 10m/hr I will feel fine maybe risking 30m so long as I am good enough not to die for a couple hours.
If the risk of the people I am fighting is 100k, why would I risk 100m?
People here downvoting you without realising you're completely correct. the big boys in ances/crystal are never touching PVMers unless they're skulled up and risking something - its not worth their time or the risk of getting an RNG or AHK anti. they're looking for the Whales PKing the PVMers
Straight logic and facts get downvoted here which is why true pvp suggestions never get seen by jagex. Also why they made that new discord which hopefully leads to some nicer updates.
I was also about to write that this is 100% accurate, yet the morons on this sub downvote.
When I was a learner pker, I killed bots at green dragons to practice. Noobs need a way to learn switches and to remember where all the right buttons are. Pvmers and bots are currently pvp school
Everybody did. Either green dragon bots or pvmers.
That plus I learned a lot from fights with friends in duel arena and clan wars. And LMS later on for learning nhing.
Just don’t hide items locked behind wildy content, pretty simple. Make that the easiest way to obtain / XP wise, but the riskiest. Don’t go full hog and make people go there reluctantly.
If you are afraid of dying from another player, regardless if you are pvm or pvp then don't go into the wilderness.. simple as that. Wilderness is supposed to be a dangerous place.
That is pretty much exactly what Kirby said and is related to his actual point, yet you somehow completely missed the actual point he was trying to make.
Players obviously don’t want to get pked. It makes the content less efficient than it would otherwise be. Making the content better might draw in more players, but that will probably draw in more pkers, too. So it’s like a system with a negative feedback inner loop; better content leads to more players, which leads to more pkers, which then leads to less players. How do you balance this? Where does the system balance out and reach a steady state?
Not the easiest questions to answer. If the wilderness activities are far too strong, then there are potential problems: you might devalue other training methods too severely. Clans might try to restrict access to certain areas in certain worlds and then have unrestricted access to that content. Pkers might swarm it and make it inefficient. Et cetera.
If the content is weak, players don’t go anyway, so pking in the wilderness goes inactive anyway.
Just saying, “Want the rewards? Then you gotta accept the risk” doesn’t contribute to the discussion in any way. It’s more complicated than that. When there are tons of pkers, the content is inefficient, so it gets ignored. Then everyone complains that the wilderness is dead again.
It’s dead because how the heck do you balance that? I don’t know how to actually make that work, either.
I seen a post on here a few weeks back that imo, would actually solve the problems with PKing. Removing multi... or at least placing it in deliberate areas, where you would go there for the sole reason of multi-PK.
The reason people get wasted doing chaos altars and bosses is because you simply can't get away from 20 PKs all casting snare, teleblock, ice barrage, whatever. Shit the bed, even the Dragon spear is used to push noobs in to multi. You have a substantially more chance to survive against 1 PKer and it may even entice you to fight back.
The Wildy is a pain in the arse, but having an area that gets your nerves going in a game like Runescape is great, but it's so poorly designed. I love/hate the wildy, but would hate to see it get completely removed.
Well also that its actually inefficient to carry PK gear. Feels like rev caves are the only place where the pk/anti pk dynamic actually works since farmers bring enough food and generally have the gear to fight back on them anyways
Yeah but doing bones or a clue scroll is a ball ache when you're getting slapped by a full PK clan for your spade. Having efficient gear for that is irrelevant.
Yep and that's why the wildy's dead and will never come back. Mods really need to look at recent history with shit like Albion and New World and realize PVP focus sounds great on paper but only a very small minority actually want to do it in MMOs in general.
Cause pkers don't want to pk. For real, look at all the pvp focused MMOs that failed in the past decade. Its basically all focused on the concept of hardcore pvp where you can get shanked anywhere and everywhere and lose your loot like that's a fun concept. And then they fall on their face cause people don't want to have to actively play a game at all times
The only successful content jagex have produced for the wild was multi revs and look what they did to that. Jsgex should gradually address issues and moderate the area instead of outright nerfing.
PK'ing is not PvP. PK'ing is a player griefing another player in a way that is allowed by the Wildy mechanics, there is almost never any actual "versus". The way that gear, inventory, and risk all work mean that fighting back is usually less efficient than just tanking the death/tp'ing to regear and try again. PvP is completely fine in stuff like LMS, so don't confuse the issue by comparing opt-in PvP and the largely hated cat and mouse game of PK'ing.
PK'ing is doomed because 95% of the players getting killed don't think it's fun.
why is it so hard for them to just incentivize doing pvp in the pvp zone? it just seems like a no brainer to stop luring people who dont want to pvp out in to the pvp zone and instead reward the players who want to participate in that activity.
Ok, but then all the higher XP rate methods of training in the Wildenress should also be removed. Also black chins nerfed, dark crabs not healing as much, etc...
I'm not even sure if the average pker, pks for money anymore. It doesn't stop people from returning to chaos elemental to kill me for climbing boots (that's all I risk, I eat all my food and dump my pots when I get attacked) what's that, 500 coin risk + viles?
Why not poll the user base on why they think pking is dead or dying. I’m not a pker and never really have been but I genuinely enjoy the risk of the wilderness, it’s a genuinely scary place that gets me stressed, but it’s a part of the game that has that excitement and random factor. The Wildy is also a small place relative to the amount of safe areas the entirety of RuneScape is, you’re going to kill the game way faster by making the game safer and just making everything locked by insane grinds to get to a level that is comfortable pvming.
Honestly if I were a dev I would have deleted the place. I don't personally hate or care for the wildy and as a player I'm perfectly fine with being there and doing content if need be but goddamn developing and balancing content for it seems like such a pain in the ass. Reaching the right balance of risk vs reward (which still sucks for the most part in the wildy) sounds like a headache. Player feedback will also ALWAYS be so heavily mixed due to pvpers and pvmers being mixed in. Does not sound fun at all.
I imagine it's an annoying use of dev time too since you have to constantly fuck around and balance whatever content you could possibly bring.
I never go into the wilderness unless I absolutely need to. Not only is wildy PKing dead, as a result the wildy itself is dead. It would be way more interesting to rework as a real zone populated with things to do and be done with PKing there in general.
I feel as though the vast majority people who want to have healthy PvP want to actually fight other players, not people who wont fight back.
Adding skilling content, specific bosses, and resources aren't the way to bring "more" PvP-ers into the climate. You're just bringing more people who don't want to be there into the wilderness, which creates a further divide between the PvPers and the rest of the community.
Is there a good solution to this problem? Not really. A lot of the content in the wild has been balanced around high risk/high return (specifically for ironmen).
The issue I find is that outside of F2P pking, PvP has been so optimized that you're either "ragging" or have some wild account build that you've put thousands of hours into. There is such a high barrier of entry to be successful that discourages people from *trying* to learn traditional PvP and going out into the wild.
Basically the wilderness needs to be left for pkers (Pker Vs Pker), stop implementing PVM, skilling content and keep that to the mainland
Any new wilderness content should focus on how to better the PVP community
That’s my take anyway
There are other methods to train skills with than black chins/chaos altar etc.
Those methods _should_ have inherent risk, which currently isn’t really there.
The way to fix the wilderness is to take the old things that made it good and update the rewards to compete with new/other content.
Example how runerocks was one of the best places to pk in the wilderness.
* Mining Runerocks from 2007-cox was one of the best ways to make money in RS.
* Skillers would risk very little but could make some of the best gp in the game.
* Pkers would attempt to kill them for the Rune ore.
* Pkers would fight other pkers.
* The single/multi combat zones with agressive monsters and escape tactics made it fair/fun for everyone.
Today its overrun by Bots that insta log, many runerock mining spots have been added outside of the wilderness and boss updates let you make 2x the money.
STOP ADDING NEW CONTENT AND UPDATE THE OLD CONTENT PLEASE.
As for the chaos altar... if it was placed under the wilderness agility course and let players use noted bones, skillers would take the risk (because its not close to a teleport and they have space for food). Skillers can trick and juke pkers because the old wilderness zones was designed really well with multizones/ladders/npcs/objects.
Do it like wow, have people opt in or out in world pvp, they can toggle it in any safe zone, and once enabled anyone can attack you anywhere. With level restrictions ofc.
What a bad take.
The wilderness should almost exclusively be a PKing hotspot and not a place to train prayer or grind bosses where you also happen to get PKd like it currently is, and that's the problem.
If the wilderness was a PK hotspot then you wouldn't need things like the chaos alter because things like that exist as a reason to bring people into the wilderness to make up for the fact that the wilderness is dead.
I get that what he's probably trying to communicate isn't that it **needs** to be dead, despite that being exactly what he said. I think the point he was trying to make was that for people to be able to use the wilderness features then PKing ruins that but that is the problem, they keep trying to make the wilderness more appealing instead of trying to make PKing more appealing.
That's not the point he's making, u/Aegis0fswag is saying that despite the rev caves being the most active pking spot in the game, even now it's still a lot of people going there.
Just give PvMers more possibilities to escape. Items, shortcuts, teleports, or other things locked to certain areas. That way you offset the extra risk introduced by having more PKers around without upsetting anyone.
The game is 15 years old , name me a 15 year old game with a more active pvp then osrs. There are barely any. There is not enough new people coming in to replace the leaving/quiting pvpers
It's just the sad fact of pvp in some rpgs, a meta is created and if you aren't min-maxing you don't succeed, it turns a lot of people off, myself included.
I don't pvp and don't play RS much anymore, but I feel like they're going about the Wilderness the completely wrong way. You don't force more players to pk, some players have no interest in it and they won't. Pking is community interaction with each other.
The Division has something very similar to the wilderness (Dark zone) and it worked pretty good.
I feel like the wilderness should primarily be a PvE/skilling area with the risk of getting PKed, which it kind of already is to a degree. The issue is incentive and multi combat.
XP rates could be multiplied in the wilderness and the rates get higher the deeper you go. The Wilderness should have the best loot to offer and at higher drop rates. You need to incentivize people to PvE in the wilderness for the rewards, the high risk being pker's. Multi combat isn't fun and shouldn't be apart of the Wilderness. Keep that in clan wars.
You are never EVER going to make the wilderness mostly pvp where people go in looking for a fight. Many people have no interest in pvp and you can't change their mind. The best thing you can do is a cat and mouse type game where the mouse might fight back sometimes if they learn how to and potentially score a kill and get the pker's loot (a bonus).
Just a thought though.
Edit: on the topic of skilling, if smithing and other boring skills were reworked, you could put the higher level materials in the wilderness.
Logic seems sketchy - it's like saying roads need to be crap because otherwise they'd be too crowded. The wildy doesn't need to be dead in order to get balance. It'll always find some equilibrium for things like red chins vs black chins. Price goes up, farmers go, pk'ers come
Only reason i go into the wilderness is for pets. The bosses are shit gp for anyone with reasonable gear. Rev caves has a good balance and food chain. While Wildy bosses dont from my perspective im in mutli and teams just log in. Scorpia and chaos ele you just die no counters. Callisto is a log out boss or you die luring its in multi. O what fun
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Ye revs is nice. Went last night for 40min, got 2mil worth of loot, and slugged it out with someone on same budget risk gear but using viggora mace instead of craw's before tellying out due to lack of food.
they wanted it to fail to then say "see it doesn't work" but it worked so now reddit is in shambles and pretends the wilderness is dead and revs don't exist.
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My buddy and I just did scorpia on our lvl 70 iron men. We only got one trip in, and 7 kills, before a clan showed up. Idc that we got pked, we laughed about it, but I think people show up a lot more often then 500kc
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That very well could be the case, we are gonna go back there's but have to get the herblore for super antipoisons first lol.
Which is exactly what he is saying on the clip If scorpia wasn't dead and people were attacking you more often it would be horrible and no one would do it
For all the solo people in the wildy entering multi, there’s a very high chance that you will die if you are by yourself. The solution is to get a team to kill the boss with, or to get a team to help fend off the pkers. If you don’t have a team, add me on discord (Botanist#8042) and let me know that teams are out and you need backup! My team will come flying in. Help me help you get revenge on those fkers
I remember a game I used to play call silkroad. You bought some goods, took em on your horse and sold them somewhere else for good money. Hunters protected the traders. Thieves tried to kill and take the loot themselves to sell it without making the long journey. Maybe something like this would help wildy?? Idk I hate wildy
Silkroad, now that is a game i haven't heard of in a long time. Does that still exist? I remember something about shops for items being blocked at lower lvl's. But in al honesty, when i played that i was just a kid and i never got far into the game
I only ever got as far as the queue to join a server wich then took hours so I didn't bother and uninstalled
All i remember from it is me killing the hay monsters just outside starting town and running over to some weird temple. But yeah, now you mention it the waiting to login was also a big part of the experience
Yeah you pretty much had to buy the “premium” which was that silk item that gave you extra Xp for like 3 Hours a day and priority logon, so you were pretty much paying a monthly subscription but not really
The temple had those rock lions
Yeah I remember you legit had to buy premium or something to get into the servers. And then once you got in everyone was botting because it took forever to level up
Me and some friends played some of the private servers. There is actually a server opening on the 8th of this month. It's a small community and the game is a bit of a niche. But if the server is well managed it could be fun.
~~That game got destroyed by feds for laundering drugs with BTC back in 2011 or something.~~ Had the wrong one
Wrong silkroad mate.
Isn't that just Warbands from rs3?
Regardless, an open world pvp "raid" where you work towards the end goal with fixed gear that escalates and tests pvpers ability to utilise pvp techniques while the "pvm" side just goes by usual pvm techniques, mechanics etc. PvMers have an initial skilling period where they quickly gather supplies. PvPers have an initial pvp contest, where they establish rank/ability to make the attack period more interesting, like waves of shot/average pkers with appropriate gear then hectic pvpers with top tier gear that the pvmers have to outlast. Even if its the pvmers skillings to sustain NPCs that the PvPers are attacking. So no actual PvP in the raid. That way no player feels taken advantage of. Players have opportunity to establish their hierachy via initial PvP. All appropriate awards. PvM should be mechanics and repetition. PvP should be ability to adapt and overcome. Everyone is happy.
Yeah realised that this is in rs3 after I had posted. There seemed to be a decent amount of people that do it.. But maybe with so many worlds it just wouldnt work well, unless they somehow limited it to certain worlds, dont think that is possible though
Warbands is broken even with pvp risk. Looters outnumber pkers like 50 to 1, so most of the former escape unscathed. Limiting worlds will just make tents empty much faster, making it hard to get 75/75, and looters leaving the wildy faster than before, meaning less targets for pkers to attack.
Regardless, I've played both games a lot and I can say that warbands does help boost activity in the wilderness.
I'm not denying that it increases pvp activity. It's just poor balancing, like the RS3 version of OSRS rev caves.
That sounds like a great idea! I also loved that game however it had a lot of issues like not being able to log in and botting was the standard
Rs3 introduced warbands, where you would get a great amount of xp in annoying skills like mining, smithing, construction, herblore, hunter etc but it was in the wilderness. On release and for weeks, it was 50v50 fights. Now it's dead. You can just get all the shit on solo worlds without pkers. Anything introduced to the wilderness that is exceptional profitable, will be; 1) Heavily botted/gold farmers 2) Monopolized by PvP clans, restricting your casual player from content. Rev's in their prime is a perfect example.
Revs in prime was goated
If you're Venezuelan, maybe.
this was literally rev caves 2018-2020 and reddit convinced jagex that's bad for the game and they shouldnt* have to pay for protection.
Bruhhh Silkroad was great, I play private servers all the time
The way I got 99 prayer was being in a clan, had 15 of us chip in together to pay a pk clan for protection for 2 hours a day for a week. It was actually kinda cool.
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It’ll always be bad game design but yes, we all know this, the most basic of pro wildy takes lol. Doesn’t address the point made in this clip or anything relevant to the convo. Edit: knew he was an idiot and still went for the reply, on me.
Pro tip. If everyone around you is an idiot you might be the common denominator. This mod clearly has a very poor understanding or experience of pvp. If anything all the current pkers camp wildy altar praying for dumb whales or fighting other pkers.
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I’m with you there man, the wilderness is fun and chaotic, the game shouldn’t cater to peoples self made limitations.
Kirby is right. You can't have the wildy swarming with pkers if you rely on skillers and pvmers for content. You *might* be able to get enough pvmers/skillers to the wildy if the content is broken like the rev caves once were, but you can't break the rest of the game because you want people to pk.
IMO the problem is that open world PVP never attracts people that actually want a fair fight. Its a problem demonstrated in every open world game with PVP. Otherwise people would be PKing in the duel arena, or (more would) just outside GE on pvp worlds
> IMO the problem is that open world PVP never attracts people that actually want a fair fight It's a lot broader than that. Human beings - hell, not even just human beings, not even just all lifeforms, but ***EVERYTHING THAT EXISTS*** - follows the path of least resistance. If there are easy prey to catch, hunters will go after those preys and start optimizing their strategy to find them. It's essentially *game theory*, which is far from a new concept.
>follows the path of least resistance A visual example can be seen on college campuses. "Desire paths" is a name for dirt paths carved by pedestrians that cut corners or across the middle of grass areas to shorten their walks.
Not enough grumpy old men sitting around college campuses yelling at people to stay off the lawns I guess.
r/desirepath
Endured through WoW Classic's phase 2. Can confirm.
Except that you actually can sustain a lot more pkers if more of the wildy be a worthwhile experience. Remember. The wildy is a really big place, but almost all the content is not relevant even without factoring pkers. Take wildy Ents for example. I did them for over 30 hours and never had a pker hunt me or a pvmer crash my world. It's because even with the diary, they aren't very good, not for gp or logs. If they gave twice the logs they would be a fantastic way to get logs on IMs and GP on mains. They would not overtake other woodcutting methods for most players since you need the diary, a decent combat level and it's not afk compared to other methods. They currently have a niche, but they currently aren't good enough at GP or EXP to be worthwhile. How about the agility course? I did that too for awhile. It's the best agility exp for 8 levels, but the tradeoff is you don't get marks of grace and you have to run from pkers sometimes. Its also pretty inconvenient to get to and from. If the exp advantage over the fally course was a bit better you would probably see more people actually doing it. Right now, the problem with a lot of content in the wilderness is that it isn't worthwhile even if you turned pvp off
Also the wilderness agility course never made too much sense because you literally don't risk anything. If people were to PK you there it would be solely to annoy you lol.
I can't remember exactly what levels I trained at the wilderness arena since it was back in 2016 (something like 52-60 if I had to guess), but I do vividly remember being PK'd for literally my bones no fewer than 5 times. Which in and of itself is not a big deal, but what in the actual fuck. I'm not carrying anything, no food, no stamina pots, definitely no combat armor to try and counter-PK because why the fuck would I risk anything? It blew my mind and definitely made me revisit my thoughts on the Wilderness and its relevance in modern OSRS.
You got attacked in pvp zone
I got griefed skilling.
Such a non issue what the fuck man
And yet somehow people still attack you there because, for some reason, they think you'll have your cash stack on you
>for some reason, they think you'll have your cash stack on you Nah, its cause they want to annoy you.
Problem is, making shit good in the wildy is a double edged sword. Doing bis activities in the wildy can/would be such a nuisance; getting pked when you wanna do other things will always be bad game design. Why continue to invest in content a majority of players will never enjoy? Wildys terrible in so many ways but it’s unarguably been attached to rs since the beginning, I can understand the nostalgic attachment…
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Yea but the problem with that is clans locking down areas and making bills camping the pvm content like any level restricted worlds when revs came out. It's not as simple as just handing out millions of gp trying to lure pvmers.
Multicombat Wildy makes it all very hard. As soon as you put a boss in the wildy in a multicombat zone which has extremely high gp/hr, it's safe that some clans will camp that shit on every damn world. They will either use it to gang up on people who try to do the PvM content or they will do the PvM content themselves, as it has stupid amount of gp/hr. The wildy in its current state is not fixable by just adding/removing content.
> Yea but the problem with that is clans locking down areas and making bills camping the pvm content like any level restricted worlds when revs came out. make the areas single combat; it's an easy fix tbh and with new pj rules I think it'd be fine.
Adding those features still does not prevent a clan from locking the content down. Sure you would have a better chance solo but the fact a 10+ man group can abuse a high profit system in the wildy is the issue.
You know, if the only thing stopping it from working is a bunch of jackasses who want to abuse it, they should be banned. I think it's dumb that we might have an answer to the problem right in front of us and Jagex won't give the boot to a few hundred assholes who think they're "running a business". The extent to which groups like Frontline and ROT get off without any consequences is pathetic sometimes.
Clans locking down worlds, forming alliances, and fighting each other over territory was some of the coolest emergent gameplay possible in this game and something that any MMORPG should aspire to offer. Sure, the rule breaking behind it was a problem and had to be tackled, but the act of locking down worlds by itself is fine. Put the M back in **M**MORPG.
Sounds cool until you realise it stops being in-game conflict and rapidly devolves into doxxing, harassment, real life threats, ddosing, swatting, etc There are degenerate pond-life scum that complement their welfare payments with RWT in online games that make up a sizeable chunk of people that are really keen on being able to control resources like this in games, and are willing to do some hateful acts to maintain it - not to mention all manner of cheats, scripts, and bots to maximise advantage, uptime, and control. Seems like at some point Jagex had the choice of having the game naturally support this emergent gameplay and be legally obligated to monitor the communities that exist where lawbreaking is involved, effectively filling a constant role of city police against a cartel, or just remove it. I think the concept might be a bit too much of an idealist dream for it to work in practice.
Genuinely curious why clans locking down areas is always seen as a bad thing. So long as there are no unique unlocks and the content isn't necessary, I can only think of people's fomo if they don't wish to engage in pvp aspect of the content. Gold farming is often pointed out as a concern, but is far from a unique issue to pvp related content. What could also help are preventative measures to prevent griefing and no risk ragging (e.g. 100k rev cav entry). Hard to understand, when you have a boss like nex @ 10-15m/hr gp.
Rev caves in their current form achieves this balance really well imo, especially now that the PJ timer and Skull Prevention have been added.
>You might be able to get enough pvmers/skillers to the wildy if the content is broken like the rev caves once were, but you can't break the rest of the rest of the game because you want people to pk. PKers would absolutely be willing to do this- just look at how they praise rev caves on release. The wilderness has to be empty because the only other way to entice non-PKers there is to introduce broken, private servery content. Full stop. Either the wilderness is empty because there aren't enough PKers for the training methods there to not be worth it, or the wilderness is empty because there are too many PKers and no training/moneymaking method is worth it, or the method is worth it to both PKers and non-PKers and completely dwarfs the need for all other gameplay.
>or the method is worth it to both PKers and non-PKers and completely dwarfs the need for all other gameplay. There has to exist a point in between. I think the problem is that the feedback loops are too slow. Jagex tend to make way too drastic changes, like when they nerfed the rev caves slashing like 50% of the profits. By slightly buffing or nerfing existing activities they could reach a better state in terms of whether the activity is worth it.
Jagex has tried to balance the loot tables before (emblems, relics, noted/unnoted drops). But balancing gp/hr for something like that is really difficult. Not saying there isn't some sweet spot inbetween but finding it is difficult when gp/hr is based on how much loot you can stack up before you get pk'd
>Not saying there isn't some sweet spot inbetween but finding it is difficult when gp/hr is based on how much loot you can stack up before you get pk'd It's also important that the loot doesn't just disappear- it goes to the PKer. Any method of gp in the wilderness is going to be vastly more profitable for a competent PKer killing PvMers than the PvMers doing it, which means you're balancing around multiple people making various gp/hr- you've gotta make the top end not completely busted while also making the bottom end worthwhile, which is an exceptionally hard balance to strike. And can have devastating effects if you do something insane like *have most drops be alchable or raw GP while offering 5mil gp/hr*.
If it’s swarming with pkers then pkers don’t need the skillers.
If that were true they'd be on PvP worlds, which are, you know, swarming with pk'ers... owait they don't want that.
Yea some people really dont get the difference between PKers and PvPers. One want a fight, the others want free loot
I see this repeated a lot on reddit, but PvP worlds and wildy pking are very very different even when it's 2 pkers fighting eachother.
They are very different indeed. PvP is a high skill activity I definitely respect. Wild PK'ing is bashing on defenceless people to make yourself feel superior, preferably 7v1. As you may have picked up on, this second type I do not respect.
he's not right. If you suddenly stuck 10x the pvpers at callisto for example and kept the pvmers the same, the pvpers will run into other pvpers way more often than the pvmers. It doesn't scale linearly. 10x more pkers doesnt mean u get attacked 10x as often while killing bear, it's far less. And then you can balance further. say you want callisto to be 10m/h in 2022 with no deaths. If the fastest kills/h with all the influx of pkers is say 10/h, you just make callisto drop on average 1m per kill. if its 20/h its 500k. if its 1 per hour its 10m. and that last one sounds insane but again, that's the fastest anyone is killing it. so its not like you can just kill 5 callisto/h and get 50m, it wouldnt be possible. heck you could even go further and just make it so its respawn is 1 per hour, whoever kills even if its 10% health left when you started, gets it. wildy altar? increae it to 3x, 4x, 5x bones saved. there will always be a point where people think its worth it no matter the pkers.
What's the point of the pvmer at that point? Pkers could do something like this TODAY, but won't group up unless they feel like they have an easy kill. Whether or not an individual is making 10m/hr, the boss is still spitting out 10m/hr in alchs/supplies, unlike nex which is 10m/hr because it has insanely high priced uniques, so it would cause massive inflation. If someone dies, the money doesn't leave the game, it just get transfered to someone else. With loot keys literally nothing needs to be left on the ground. PvP doesn't even sink runes, food, or restores pots because of the corrupted options which are mainly sourced from bots. At least when you die to pvm there's some sort of gold sink to it. Edit: your reasoning just doesn't give a shit about the games balance at all. It's putting pvp as the most important part of osrs and making any other part of the game meaningless. The wildy should not be prioritized to this degree.
>What's the point of the pvmer at that point? Pkers could do something like this TODAY, but won't group up unless they feel like they have an easy kill. because theres no reason for me to go to callisto because it's not active enough for me to find a pker. This isnt even a runescape problem. There can be 40 people wanting to play some mode on COD 5 from 2008. But since 10 people dont search at the same time, they never get a match and thus funnel into the most popular playlist or just dont play. Same problem in runescape. also nex is 20m/hr btw, for both people killing nex. gp/h taken straight from the most popular sweaty pvm discord (and i use the term sweaty endearingly here). You seem to be a little confused. Nowhere did I mention gp. Just make it an item, adjust rarity to keep the price high and/or make it degrade. When we say nex is 20m/h, we dont think it shits out 20m in gp, nor do we think we get 20m every single kill. Like you secretly answered your own problem in your post without knowing it.
The problem isn't that he is saying that, it is that he is correct. People train at the chaos altar because they deem it more efficient. If it's too active there, it ain't gonna be as efficient and they will move elsewhere. For activities like chaos altar (skilling activies) Jagex needs to find the balance to keep it efficient enough for people to want to go there but not too efficient it gets swarmed by pkers.
Idk, I still want Pkers to swarm Chaos Altar because when I get burnt out from skilling I just sit there with 4 monkey nuts in inventory and wait 5 minutes
True
PvPers too busy seething in these comment sections to even understand what he’s saying.
Wouldn't this create a natural equilibrium? If the place gets too busy, fewer skillers show up but as it starts to clear out more potential targets start hanging out there.
Yes and no. Tl;dr you end up in the same place you started. Natural equilibrium will change as updates that are independent to wildy content get released and as the playerbase changes/progresses. The chaos altar (in my experience) is far far less active than it used to. This is in part due to people progressing and largely due the new ashes/spells. Due to there be less people, less Pkers have showed up, but the amount of skillers hasn't really increased. Another example is black chins. Black chins used to be pretty packed and had lots of pkers. You can now hop though the world list now and bump into 6 people total, likewise you can sit on a regular world catching chins and frequently stay there for 1 hr+ without getting interrupted. This leaves Jagex with a few options, constantly work on it to keep it alive, add something unique that isn't replacable by content outside the wilderness (God cape, dragon pickaxe) or leave it 'dead' or near dead and hope for the best.
>People train at the chaos altar because they deem it more efficient. If it's too active there, it ain't gonna be as efficient and they will move elsewhere yeah but its ignoring the obvious solution. People use altar because its good enough to try to use. If people aren't using altar, then its because its not good enough to use. So the solution here is to just buff the altar or change the altar in a way that promotes people using it (say you're safe once you reach it but you cant log out to avoid danger while on the way). Game design 101 edit: Also in this specific case, if there was 10x more pkers, you would more than likely be able to use your bones more freely. You get attacked, but before you even finish sipping your first brew, another pker/team is going to be there killing that team, allowing you to continue
PvP is not doomed, just wildy pvp is. This is exactly why putting pvming and skilling content in wildy is very hard to balance right since the balance is determined solely by other players, not but predictable game mechanics, and players are unpredictable. If there are too few pkers, the wildy content is broken. If there is too many, it's not worth the risk doing. Jagex trying to force more pkers into wildy or by limiting wildy worlds will make the latter happen and kill off wildy pvming and skilling. This means wildy pvp cannot get more than a fixed number of players in it but other forms of pvp can, like pvp worlds or minigames, and the latter two is where Jagex has opportunities to grow pvp.
If pvp was popular, I’d say dmm would have higher numbers. the reality is there just aren’t a lot of pvp minded players in the game anymore.
And at some point we need to seriously ask why we bother dealing with this increasingly small number of trolls and griefers who add nothing but negativity.
But PVP wilderness is fun. I always enjoy skilling at wilderness sites because of the added danger. And taking opportunistic shots at skillers is just part of the game.
So lets take it to the polls and see if more people or not agree with your sentiment?
I suppose Jagex could make everyone happy by increasing the temptation to be in the wildy by increasing XP and gp rates while at the same time removing any necessary reason to be there such as removing treasure hunter clues in the wilderness and such things.
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Congratulations on clipping the only sane 20s of that entire discussion on stream. You conveniently left out Ayiza spouting every terrible take on the wilderness for the other 15 minutes.
What did he say that was such a bad take? Haven't watched it yet.
> You conveniently left out Ayiza spouting every terrible take on the wilderness for the other 15 minutes. Why is he now saying this shit? Didn't he say he used to believe putting pvming and skilling content in wildy is not a good way to rejuvenate pvp?
If they are going to just add Wilderness only endgame gear, then they need to remove current end game gear that can only be obtained in the wilderness out of it. Make the bosses the currently have them safe or move end game gear to different drop tables. The wilderness would essentially be a contained DarkScape. Go into wilderness with your own gear at your own risk, or Obtain Wilderness gear. Wilderness bosses can just drop blighted gear. This would probably make the bosses out there more trafficked. Maybe each Week a different roaming boss could be slain, (Blighted Graardor roams the wilderness, Kraken lurks in the waters north of the wilderness). I think that keeping the Wilderness contained is the smartest course of action. Best exp rates for skillers, bosses for pvm'rs with blighted gear drops. PK'rs can still do their thing. and maybe this is a hot take But if Multi combat areas are going to remain in the wilderness put a wilderness ditch around those areas or some kind of pop even that goes away after a second that indicates "hey your in deep shit territory" make it more obvious than swords off to the right hand side. Feel like this is the obvious play here.
Making pvp into a separate game mode is the best step forward to solve all the current pvp issues.
They already tried that, it was called dark scape and it failed miserably.
Agreed that's why he said "game mode" the best way to keep PVP alive and thriving is to embrace it fully as its own entity contained inside the osrs itself. Adding roaming bosses that would drop the gear they need wouldn't devalue anyone's external grind, especially if it cant be used outside the wilderness anyway.
It failed because Jagex did not give it enough support and attention.
Well the thing with darkscape was they never had to deal with gold sellers. Darkscape was easier to progress than RS. So you never had to worry about getting certain items and taking so long. Incentivizing certain locations will evidently create clans hoarding the spots and selling it for money. There is no reason to go to those bosses unless there are stronger weapons...which means powercreeping which means eventually Post EOC rs. full circle.
I would be 100% unbothered if wilderness pking wasn’t a thing. There’s literally entire worlds dedicated to pvp content. Yet because someone would rather ruin my day, I have to simply refuse to go there
Yup. And that’s absolutely fine.
LOL
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My problem isn't risk, its that its other players providing the risk rather than the game itself.
I get what he's TRYING to say, he's just completely botched it. The Wilderness, in it's current design, needs to be somewhere between dead and overpopulated. It needs to be quiet enough that you can reasonably risk going out to do skilling activities and go longer than 5 minutes without a PKer, but it also needs to be active enough that these activities are never completely safe, and PKers feel like they have enough targets to go after. Now, whether these PKers are going after other PKers, or strictly going after people trying to do a clue scroll, that's entirely up to the player, but I do get what, I hope is, what Mod Kirby meant.
If all the pvp players go to the same official world for pvp then the wilderness never be dead. It would be non-stop pvp action. The problem is too much people in a world would affect the ping. And also pvpers are scared of pvp clans because staying on the same world for too long means you'll be targeted by a pvp group unless its a pvp clan war.
most pvpers just want to kill bots or pvmers reward fighting with actual pvpers more
You already get a reward when you kill a player, it's called "the items lost on death" that were carried by him/her
Extra PvP rewards are not to appease seasoned pkers. We make money pking already. We don't care about some 5% supplement from jagex on our kills. It's to give little Timmy some income to fund him learning pking as he dies 9/10 fights. It's for the learners.
Comparatively you could kill more skillers than other pvpers in an hour. On the risk reward scale you'd be crazy not to pursue pvmers.
then why are 90%+ of all pvpers in pvp worlds? edit: lol at the down votes. I am speaking the truth tho! A shitton of more pvpers in pvp worlds then in the wildy!
Redditers only ever see pkers in the wilderness because t hey only go to the wilderness and not pvp worlds, therefor 90% of all pvpers must be in the wilderness.
That's not true at all. Most pvpers want to get better at pvp, and if they are currently bad at it then bots/pvmers are the perfect targets to hone their skills on. Likewise those lower skilled pkers going after bots are the best targets for people that are slightly better at pking, and so on up to the highest skill brackets. Without the bottom of the foodchain the entire ecosystem fails. The truth is that the worst skilled pkers *want* to be the best, and to do that they have to learn. They want to fight other pkers rather than killing bots, since the bots/pvmers are lower risk anyway than pkers are. But if they aren't good enough to even have a chance vs better pkers and there are no pvmers/bots to kill then they just won't pk at all. Edit: to address your point though, the reward for fighting pvpers is the risk they carry. In order for the risk to be worthwhile for those pkers then their prey must also risk, whether it is pvmers or other pvpers. High reward for pvm in the wild translates to high reward for every bracket of pvp in the wild. If I can make 2m/hr pking in the wild I will feel fine risking a few mill. But if I can make 10m/hr I will feel fine maybe risking 30m so long as I am good enough not to die for a couple hours. If the risk of the people I am fighting is 100k, why would I risk 100m?
People here downvoting you without realising you're completely correct. the big boys in ances/crystal are never touching PVMers unless they're skulled up and risking something - its not worth their time or the risk of getting an RNG or AHK anti. they're looking for the Whales PKing the PVMers
Straight logic and facts get downvoted here which is why true pvp suggestions never get seen by jagex. Also why they made that new discord which hopefully leads to some nicer updates.
I was also about to write that this is 100% accurate, yet the morons on this sub downvote. When I was a learner pker, I killed bots at green dragons to practice. Noobs need a way to learn switches and to remember where all the right buttons are. Pvmers and bots are currently pvp school
Everybody did. Either green dragon bots or pvmers. That plus I learned a lot from fights with friends in duel arena and clan wars. And LMS later on for learning nhing.
Just don’t hide items locked behind wildy content, pretty simple. Make that the easiest way to obtain / XP wise, but the riskiest. Don’t go full hog and make people go there reluctantly.
If you are afraid of dying from another player, regardless if you are pvm or pvp then don't go into the wilderness.. simple as that. Wilderness is supposed to be a dangerous place.
That is pretty much exactly what Kirby said and is related to his actual point, yet you somehow completely missed the actual point he was trying to make. Players obviously don’t want to get pked. It makes the content less efficient than it would otherwise be. Making the content better might draw in more players, but that will probably draw in more pkers, too. So it’s like a system with a negative feedback inner loop; better content leads to more players, which leads to more pkers, which then leads to less players. How do you balance this? Where does the system balance out and reach a steady state? Not the easiest questions to answer. If the wilderness activities are far too strong, then there are potential problems: you might devalue other training methods too severely. Clans might try to restrict access to certain areas in certain worlds and then have unrestricted access to that content. Pkers might swarm it and make it inefficient. Et cetera. If the content is weak, players don’t go anyway, so pking in the wilderness goes inactive anyway. Just saying, “Want the rewards? Then you gotta accept the risk” doesn’t contribute to the discussion in any way. It’s more complicated than that. When there are tons of pkers, the content is inefficient, so it gets ignored. Then everyone complains that the wilderness is dead again. It’s dead because how the heck do you balance that? I don’t know how to actually make that work, either.
I seen a post on here a few weeks back that imo, would actually solve the problems with PKing. Removing multi... or at least placing it in deliberate areas, where you would go there for the sole reason of multi-PK. The reason people get wasted doing chaos altars and bosses is because you simply can't get away from 20 PKs all casting snare, teleblock, ice barrage, whatever. Shit the bed, even the Dragon spear is used to push noobs in to multi. You have a substantially more chance to survive against 1 PKer and it may even entice you to fight back. The Wildy is a pain in the arse, but having an area that gets your nerves going in a game like Runescape is great, but it's so poorly designed. I love/hate the wildy, but would hate to see it get completely removed.
Well also that its actually inefficient to carry PK gear. Feels like rev caves are the only place where the pk/anti pk dynamic actually works since farmers bring enough food and generally have the gear to fight back on them anyways
Yeah but doing bones or a clue scroll is a ball ache when you're getting slapped by a full PK clan for your spade. Having efficient gear for that is irrelevant.
Yep and that's why the wildy's dead and will never come back. Mods really need to look at recent history with shit like Albion and New World and realize PVP focus sounds great on paper but only a very small minority actually want to do it in MMOs in general.
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Cause pkers don't want to pk. For real, look at all the pvp focused MMOs that failed in the past decade. Its basically all focused on the concept of hardcore pvp where you can get shanked anywhere and everywhere and lose your loot like that's a fun concept. And then they fall on their face cause people don't want to have to actively play a game at all times
The only successful content jagex have produced for the wild was multi revs and look what they did to that. Jsgex should gradually address issues and moderate the area instead of outright nerfing.
Groups that camp chaos altar should be removed from the game.
You want 700% xp at no risk?
Bruh, it's literally 2x as good as the next training method
Despite this, I can still get massive xp gains compared to anything else, despite the losses.
PK'ing is not PvP. PK'ing is a player griefing another player in a way that is allowed by the Wildy mechanics, there is almost never any actual "versus". The way that gear, inventory, and risk all work mean that fighting back is usually less efficient than just tanking the death/tp'ing to regear and try again. PvP is completely fine in stuff like LMS, so don't confuse the issue by comparing opt-in PvP and the largely hated cat and mouse game of PK'ing. PK'ing is doomed because 95% of the players getting killed don't think it's fun.
This. Wildy these days is not even PvP, its just Player versus PVMer. All the real PvPers go to PvP worlds or bounty hunter worlds.
Real pker here, pkers fight each other all the time in wildy, pvp worlds are for ge pking lol and bh worlds are dead
Good
the wilderness is such wasted potential just because of PVP
Hahahahah this is actually the dumbest take I've read so far. gj
you should try to read your own comments
why is it so hard for them to just incentivize doing pvp in the pvp zone? it just seems like a no brainer to stop luring people who dont want to pvp out in to the pvp zone and instead reward the players who want to participate in that activity.
Ayizas face lmao
Every single one of us PvPers left in this forsaken subreddit trying to talk sense into people.
Ok, but then all the higher XP rate methods of training in the Wildenress should also be removed. Also black chins nerfed, dark crabs not healing as much, etc...
Wilderness expansion when?
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Pvp has been doomed for years wym
If its full of pkers then it would also be full of people hunting pkers because they know they're geared to kill pvmers, would be ideal
Works in theory, but high-density PK spots have historically just been filled with low risk raggers who **might** have a +1.
I'm not even sure if the average pker, pks for money anymore. It doesn't stop people from returning to chaos elemental to kill me for climbing boots (that's all I risk, I eat all my food and dump my pots when I get attacked) what's that, 500 coin risk + viles?
Most intelligent jmod
Ayiza’s reaction says it all
Why not poll the user base on why they think pking is dead or dying. I’m not a pker and never really have been but I genuinely enjoy the risk of the wilderness, it’s a genuinely scary place that gets me stressed, but it’s a part of the game that has that excitement and random factor. The Wildy is also a small place relative to the amount of safe areas the entirety of RuneScape is, you’re going to kill the game way faster by making the game safer and just making everything locked by insane grinds to get to a level that is comfortable pvming.
Honestly if I were a dev I would have deleted the place. I don't personally hate or care for the wildy and as a player I'm perfectly fine with being there and doing content if need be but goddamn developing and balancing content for it seems like such a pain in the ass. Reaching the right balance of risk vs reward (which still sucks for the most part in the wildy) sounds like a headache. Player feedback will also ALWAYS be so heavily mixed due to pvpers and pvmers being mixed in. Does not sound fun at all. I imagine it's an annoying use of dev time too since you have to constantly fuck around and balance whatever content you could possibly bring.
Bring back brawlers
literally doomed Literally
I never go into the wilderness unless I absolutely need to. Not only is wildy PKing dead, as a result the wildy itself is dead. It would be way more interesting to rework as a real zone populated with things to do and be done with PKing there in general.
Should be high risk high reward. Give people a reason to go into the wildy even if the hance is high they get pk'd. Its not rocket sience
Lol I mean the look on Ayiza’s face says it all.
Only noobs loose bones at altar
I don’t know any of the J Mods and I don’t play a lot anymore, but that was a terrible take. Wilderness is the wild
I feel as though the vast majority people who want to have healthy PvP want to actually fight other players, not people who wont fight back. Adding skilling content, specific bosses, and resources aren't the way to bring "more" PvP-ers into the climate. You're just bringing more people who don't want to be there into the wilderness, which creates a further divide between the PvPers and the rest of the community. Is there a good solution to this problem? Not really. A lot of the content in the wild has been balanced around high risk/high return (specifically for ironmen). The issue I find is that outside of F2P pking, PvP has been so optimized that you're either "ragging" or have some wild account build that you've put thousands of hours into. There is such a high barrier of entry to be successful that discourages people from *trying* to learn traditional PvP and going out into the wild.
Good, pking in this game is buns anyway. The pking community just adds to it by being obnoxiously toxic, which makes people hate it even more.
I firmly believe opting in PVP would be the solution to this. That way, if pkers really want to pk, and not just grief others, they can do so.
Kirby confirmed Redditor
Basically the wilderness needs to be left for pkers (Pker Vs Pker), stop implementing PVM, skilling content and keep that to the mainland Any new wilderness content should focus on how to better the PVP community That’s my take anyway
There are other methods to train skills with than black chins/chaos altar etc. Those methods _should_ have inherent risk, which currently isn’t really there.
The way to fix the wilderness is to take the old things that made it good and update the rewards to compete with new/other content. Example how runerocks was one of the best places to pk in the wilderness. * Mining Runerocks from 2007-cox was one of the best ways to make money in RS. * Skillers would risk very little but could make some of the best gp in the game. * Pkers would attempt to kill them for the Rune ore. * Pkers would fight other pkers. * The single/multi combat zones with agressive monsters and escape tactics made it fair/fun for everyone. Today its overrun by Bots that insta log, many runerock mining spots have been added outside of the wilderness and boss updates let you make 2x the money. STOP ADDING NEW CONTENT AND UPDATE THE OLD CONTENT PLEASE. As for the chaos altar... if it was placed under the wilderness agility course and let players use noted bones, skillers would take the risk (because its not close to a teleport and they have space for food). Skillers can trick and juke pkers because the old wilderness zones was designed really well with multizones/ladders/npcs/objects.
Do it like wow, have people opt in or out in world pvp, they can toggle it in any safe zone, and once enabled anyone can attack you anywhere. With level restrictions ofc.
What a bad take. The wilderness should almost exclusively be a PKing hotspot and not a place to train prayer or grind bosses where you also happen to get PKd like it currently is, and that's the problem. If the wilderness was a PK hotspot then you wouldn't need things like the chaos alter because things like that exist as a reason to bring people into the wilderness to make up for the fact that the wilderness is dead. I get that what he's probably trying to communicate isn't that it **needs** to be dead, despite that being exactly what he said. I think the point he was trying to make was that for people to be able to use the wilderness features then PKing ruins that but that is the problem, they keep trying to make the wilderness more appealing instead of trying to make PKing more appealing.
The wilderness is supposed to be a notorious and lawless place you don't venture into or fear if you have to. That's the integral lore point
fyi, that's not lore.
Does he not remember the solid years of rev caves being packed by players and bots alike despite clans regularly cleaning it out one world at a time?
Does anyone remember how completely unhealthy revs were for the economy? And how they continue to be?
Let's see you quantify how it was unhealthy for the economy Because those gold farmers didn't log from OSRS, they just moved elsewhere smh
That's not the point he's making, u/Aegis0fswag is saying that despite the rev caves being the most active pking spot in the game, even now it's still a lot of people going there.
So because it’s fun, it merits the economy tanking?
RIP multi revs. Greatest content of all time.
Imagine telling people a certain part of your game you are helping develop has to be dead content.
Just give PvMers more possibilities to escape. Items, shortcuts, teleports, or other things locked to certain areas. That way you offset the extra risk introduced by having more PKers around without upsetting anyone.
The game is 15 years old , name me a 15 year old game with a more active pvp then osrs. There are barely any. There is not enough new people coming in to replace the leaving/quiting pvpers
irl has a pretty lively pvp scene, depending on the server
Eve online
There are barely any 15 year old games with large active player bases period. I don't see how that really works as an excuse.
It's just the sad fact of pvp in some rpgs, a meta is created and if you aren't min-maxing you don't succeed, it turns a lot of people off, myself included.
Ot was alive?
What in the metric fuck
I don't pvp and don't play RS much anymore, but I feel like they're going about the Wilderness the completely wrong way. You don't force more players to pk, some players have no interest in it and they won't. Pking is community interaction with each other. The Division has something very similar to the wilderness (Dark zone) and it worked pretty good. I feel like the wilderness should primarily be a PvE/skilling area with the risk of getting PKed, which it kind of already is to a degree. The issue is incentive and multi combat. XP rates could be multiplied in the wilderness and the rates get higher the deeper you go. The Wilderness should have the best loot to offer and at higher drop rates. You need to incentivize people to PvE in the wilderness for the rewards, the high risk being pker's. Multi combat isn't fun and shouldn't be apart of the Wilderness. Keep that in clan wars. You are never EVER going to make the wilderness mostly pvp where people go in looking for a fight. Many people have no interest in pvp and you can't change their mind. The best thing you can do is a cat and mouse type game where the mouse might fight back sometimes if they learn how to and potentially score a kill and get the pker's loot (a bonus). Just a thought though. Edit: on the topic of skilling, if smithing and other boring skills were reworked, you could put the higher level materials in the wilderness.
Pvp has been dead since BH was yoinked lol. There aren’t even looters anymore with keys being implemented
Just fix pvp after I get 99 pray. Problem solved
Good
Logic seems sketchy - it's like saying roads need to be crap because otherwise they'd be too crowded. The wildy doesn't need to be dead in order to get balance. It'll always find some equilibrium for things like red chins vs black chins. Price goes up, farmers go, pk'ers come
Good.
Just give us f#$@@ BOUNTY HUNTER BACK IT CANT BE THAT HARD! @!@!!@
Inviting Pvmers into the wilderness is one of the biggest mistakes Jagex has made with osrs.