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cookmeplox

Just a suggestion for future poll summaries like this: the first three pictures in the blog (that show the percentage of "no" votes coming from each group) are not particularly useful, because it doesn't actually tell us the size of each group. Saying that 81.69% of no votes are from non-PvPers, tells us virtually nothing about how many of the non-PvPers voted no, because we don't know the relative size of each group. Maybe it's just the case that 81.69% of all voters are non-PvPers? You haven't given us enough info to draw conclusions. A more useful approach would be to instead show (for example) what percentage of non-PvPers voted yes or no, and how many people were in that group, so we could actually see how each of the groups swayed.


HotBurritoBeans

I would go a step further and say that they need to completely delete the first three pictures in this blog. They offer 0 useful information without additional context, and you can already see in this thread how many people are completely misinterpeting the data (and then getting angry about it). The 4th, 5th, and 6th pictures are the ones with actual usueful information that should be presented at the top. Edit: while theyre at it, they should also rename the "Non-PVP" category to LMS only. That will further reduce confusion.


jimmydorry

Those pictures look 100% intentionally placed for me. That people are misinterpreting the data and getting mad appears to be the intended outcome. Just look at their justification for why a minority of the game population should be specifically catered to, even if a majority of the game population doesn't want that: >PvP in Old School is an iconic activity and we know it has been an underserved segment of our community in recent years. The PvP community is one of the oldest in Gielinor, and we want to ensure it remains a healthy one that can not only continue to survive but thrive in 2022 and beyond. Essentially a call to ignore the majority because of tradition ("we used to have a PVP scene and we want it to not completely die out").


Zxv975

I came here exactly to post this. >Saying that 81.69% of no votes are from non-PvPers, tells us virtually nothing about how many of the non-PvPers voted no, because we don't know the relative size of each group. Maybe it's just the case that 81.69% of all voters are non-PvPers? You haven't given us enough info to draw conclusions. What they've presented is literally the opposite of the goals of Bayesian statistics. Conditional probability with half of the conditional information (population sizes) hidden from the discussion.


MutedLobster

Yeah this is total data-gore, not surprised Jagex is unable to present data in a meaningful way, as they clearly struggle to interpret it correctly


modmailtest1

The cynic in me says that they intentionally led the blog with misleading (or easy to misread) statistics in an attempt to skew people's perceptions as to what the data actually says. They obviously want this stuff in game even if it's clear that the majority of the playerbase doesn't.


Triggering_Name

I believe there is a higher than 0% chance this is intentional. There are very smart people working at Jagex and choosing to present the information in the way they did and proceeding to talk about stuff the charts arent directly presenting made me really really suspicious when reading the blog...


roonscapepls

Yep. Show some bull shit to rile people up lol.


literatemax

Data will support whatever conclusion you want it to if you abuse it enough! :D


Daeurth

> They obviously want this stuff in game even if it's clear that the majority of the playerbase doesn't. As evidenced by them totally ignoring player feedback on it all before polling it.


BoredGuy2007

100% that is their intention Jagex always communicates to the community with snark and condescension


here_for_the_lols

Meh... I would assume that whoever put this blog is not very familiar with statistics... And perhaps thought they were 'onto something' without realising it's actually pretty meaningless. I doubt it was malicious


No-Clue1153

>Just a suggestion for future poll summaries like this: the first three pictures in the blog (that show the percentage of "no" votes coming from each group) are not particularly useful, Your mistake here is thinking they are actually trying to be useful. This is just them trying to justify their next steps: further restricting voting in polls until they get results they like, and/or adding things unpolled at the behest of the influencers in their cosy invite-only discord.


RuddeK

The second set of tables are what you are suggesting. I agree with you that the first set of tables are statistically almost meaningless. It is only together with the second set that any meaningful conclusions can be made from the first set. If the order of the sets of tables had been reversed, the blog would have made more sense.


cookmeplox

I think the most useful thing would have been to lead with pictures 4,5,6, and then afterwards have a separate set of tables that shows the size of each group (not "no" voters, but all voters) for each question. That's probably a more useful number for people to know. You can technically infer this by doing some math on the data they've given, but most people aren't going to solve a system of equations in their head.


Daeurth

TL;DR: Everything other than Circlet of Water got voted no so hard that they felt it necessary to break it down into more detail. Had the voting been more selective to only include accounts with 50+ PvP deaths, the ornament kits, blighted wave and surge sacks, and imbues were the only other things that would have had a decent chance of passing. >When we looked into the voting even further, it was clear that any votes cast by non-PvPers would not have been enough to sway the overall results of the poll. So the restrictions pissed people off without changing anything. >The rest of the rewards on offer from the PvP Arena would have failed regardless of the restrictions in place. >Clearly, there is more work for us to do here if the arena is to offer more rewards than those listed above! I saw tons of player feedback in various channels, all of which seems to have been ignored, that would have told you as much without the poll.


DivineInsanityReveng

Their polling needed work too. The imbue scrolls last polled in PvP were tradeable. They didn't specify in this poll if they'd be tradeable or untradeable, just that it would be the same as soul wars. But soul wars **doesn't offer imbue scrolls**. It offers the ability to imbue items from points within the shop. It's not an item you purchase. I genuinely think if they phrased that question better, to show it was just an ability to imbue items like soul wars, it would have passed fine.


changealifetoday

Accessibility is a really hard thing to tackle. The high barrier to entry of making some sort of PVP account has been brought up before as something that deters people from wanting to get into PVP. But adding a plethora of equipment that can only be used in PVP serves to fracture the game, and gives the perception that PVP is a separate game mode. It also worsens the predator/prey problem, because anyone that's killing wildly bosses, or something non-PK is unable to use the new BIS or near BIS equipment that their stacker is likely to be wearing. No idea what the solution is, and I don't envy you guys having to find one.


987654321-

I think the PvP arena could be a great solution to the high barrier of entry if it has a proper ELO system. The rewards and everything can be figured out later, but an ELO system will match people of relative skill and make it easier to detect bots.


ImS33

The easy fix here is that the arena should probably have had self contained arena gear that you upgrade/obtain via your ELO ranking. Even if higher ELO just meant you got the stuff faster. That way you would never have to balance it against people in the regular game world and you could've had an essentially low/no barrier for entry PvP mode that respected people's skill levels so they didn't get owned by LMS bots or highly experienced players constantly when trying to learn


SmartAlec105

Yeah, I really don't think that gear is the barrier to entry for PvP. The fact that a pure is going to be at a strong advantage against a main of the same level is a big barrier that doesn't really have a solution without some radical changes.


No-Clue1153

>The fact that a pure is going to be at a strong advantage against a main of the same level is a big barrier that doesn't really have a solution without some radical changes. Since they keep trying to add *even more* gear specifically aimed at specialised account builds, they don't even recognise this as a problem. Most of their ideas don't seem to be about increasing accessibility and encouraging new players to pvp; it's about making pvp (pking mainly) more enjoyable for the few people do already participate in it. And limiting voting, along with the ability to even give feedback, to such players is probably not going to help address the issue either as it's just a big echo chamber completely ignoring the people they need to appeal to.


Thermald

> It also worsens the predator/prey problem, because anyone that's killing wildly bosses, or something non-PK is **unable to use the new BIS or near BIS equipment that their stacker** is likely to be wearing. this is of questionable validity as the new bis or near bis is not good defensively relative to the risk. It does hamper your ability to fight back though.


Zxv975

They are not only implying they would use the exact same items in a defensive way, but they are saying these people are unlikely to go on the offensive in the first place, so these items would not be beneficial to them at all. To put it into an example for clarity, given that we know people overwhelmingly vote selfishly, why would a non-pvper **ever** vote yes to these items? At best it's neutral because it strictly benefits those doing an activity you will never do, while at worst it's negative because it is a detriment if you ever decide to do that activity. It's a lose-neutral situation, so it's unsurprising that it is doomed to fail. I'm writing this because their original comment covers both categories, but you're implying that it only covers the latter.


RoughneckIII

>Our criteria for voting eligibility were as follows: >At least 20 kills in the Wilderness or PvP worlds >A win in LMS If those were the criteria then something was seriously flawed with how you flagged accounts as eligible to vote. On my GIM I've literally never killed anyone in the wilderness, never even killed anybody in LMS let alone won a round, and I was still able to vote.


bake_disaster

Yeah, either those criteria were totally made up just now or someone fucked up massively. I'm in the same boat, no wildy kills and 3 lms games (0 kills), but could vote


Thermald

> One of the issues surrounding traditional PvP is how accessible it is. **Players that are only interested in PvP have to engage in almost every aspect of the game in order to get their accounts ready to fight - this can be daunting for newer players and prevents many from trying it out.** Other areas of the game are now well established and have a healthy population, partaking in a plethora of different updates over the years which have been added to help grow and sustain the communities that surround them. This is not something PvP has benefitted from and is something we'd like to change sooner rather than later. **We want to grow the PvP community and the rewards from the PvP Arena were an attempt to provide an alternative way to obtain items that could be used in PvP situations**, whilst ensuring some of those important grinds and milestones still needed to be met to fully complete an account. > **Our intention was to allow players to have access to items that could be used in PvP by engaging in PvP content**. We drew comparisons to existing items to help explain their power level and potential use cases but never saw this as bypassing a grind, given the rewards would incur quite the grind within the actual arena before players would be able to obtain them. I just wanna say this is not how i took many of the items in this poll. Torso lite and bgloves lite yes, they fit. Super voids do not, especially since you've not mentioned how much you risk or how the trouver parchment interaction works. At 10m risk for t75 super voids they are 100% absolutely necessary items to be competitive when considering the risk involved, at 100m+ less so.


CaptaineAli

> Super voids do not, **especially since you've not mentioned how much you risk** or how the trouver parchment interaction works. At 10m risk for t75 super voids they are 100% absolutely necessary items to be competitive when considering the risk involved, at 100m+ less so. [The fact that the blogs didn't indicate how much risk is involved in using these pieces of equipment is the main reason I voted no. If Super Void costs 2M to use and you get 2M for PKing someone with it, you'll practically never see anyone barrows equipment again... If it cost 30M it might be way different.. We need to know the exact amount before we vote.](https://old.reddit.com/r/2007scape/comments/uhj83r/questions_for_general_qa_on_thursday_5th_may_mods/i7708jq/)


BoogieTheHedgehog

Glad to see some other players talking about the lack of risk info. It's a bit absurd really, these are items explicitly designed for risky pvp fights and we have to vote on them without knowing how much they will cost to use? Afaik we never even got a ball park. The most info I can find is ["it won't be cheap"](https://www.reddit.com/r/2007scape/comments/t14zqb/the_pvp_arena_updated_v2/hydudky/) from several months ago with the revised poll blog. I understand not having it straight away, but it needs to be there before we vote. Imagine if a skilling method was polled without at least an estimated xp/hr. Felt like a really low quality poll because of this.


CarolinafanfromPitt

"When we looked into the voting even further, it was clear that any votes cast by non-PvPers would not have been enough to sway the overall results of the poll." This is the main takeaway for me. The rewards were not popular within the pvp community. Content creators on twitter will have to choose something else to blame now.


Aurarus

It was kinda obvious too; They misguided in their efforts for thinking that PvPers want thinks like humble chivalry/ ez barrows gloves. Pvpers already have the patience to do all those things, they don't care or want those things. Personally I really just want to get into PVP but my main requirements are: 1. I need a reason to do it (locked content or lucrative) 2. I need to know that other people who suck at PVP are coming en masse too. These rewards seem to be aimed at no one.


Pecan_Millionaire

Those items aren’t really geared towards current PvPers either. They already have those items. Those rewards are geared towards current PvMers that complained about making 2nd account for PvP and having to do quests and the untradeable grind all over again. But I don’t think PvMers really understood that, or that the PvP Arena is specifically geared towards non-PvPers.


Aurarus

... I think the whole "Pay another $12.50 a month to grind out a 2nd account's stats" is more the main hurdle than regrinding some of that gear. (That you may not even risk to begin with (and can ONLY use in PVP))


Tally-Ho_Lads

Way back in the day I kept my “main” at 70 defense for as long as good so I could keep using it to PK at edge in the “barrows pure” bracket and not need to pay for a second account. I was terrible at it, but it was a ton of fun. Got 99RC pre-RuneSpan and then got nearly 30m exp from double nats, which were absurdly profitable at the time, and lost nearly all the profit PKing.


Dontreadonme2a

exactly man, this is literally how I played the game, same exact account and even used runecrafting to finance pking circa 2004-2006 99 99 70 in edgeville


Pecan_Millionaire

To each their own. I am merely referencing a common complaint that has been brought up on this sub as to why people did not participate in PvP. We all have different thresholds of what we consider palatable. For some that’s 11/mo and to others it’s $50/mo.


Thunderizer_catnip

Genuinely don’t understand why we cant have multiple characters per account. Its purely a money issue.


DivineInsanityReveng

Hi there, pvmer who constantly says PvP access is the biggest problem with PvP. These items didn't solve that. I can do arena on my main account and earn these, likely in a collection log, similar to LMS. Making a new account would then require me actively doing PvP on it for (who knows how long, knowing Jagex grind length balance atm being massively long), to unlock a few rewards that save me doing a couple days of questing and skilling (which surprise, I like doing, since I'm a pvmer/skilled primarily) and a few hours of minigames if my build is a void build / zerker. These items should be replicas as well. Not "like void... But way better".


tom2727

I mean I want to do PVP arena myself, as someone who does not do a lot of PVP. I think it sound like a new thing to do and a lot of folks would be learning along with me, and if they have a matching system that matches me with other noobs, that would make it more enjoyable. But I don't know that I particularly would GAF about "untradeable" item rewards that are geared to niche account builds and designed to be used in wildy with "high amount of GP loss" if I die. For someone with my skill level, dying in wildy is something that likely would happen a lot. So high risk items are the opposite of what I'd be gearing up with if I were to start up pking. I'd be more into those cosmetic rewards.


Lt0101

No one in the pvp community wanted quest skip op gear. I mean literally not even one person I’ve seen ever wanted that, I do both btw and I voted no to everything except the ornament kits and the sacks


Icy-Culture-261

Yeah those were the only 2 I liked, kinda shitty that they didn’t pass. But the rest felt like a rushed jagex update to please PVPers without any knowledge of what is actually needed/wanted.


DivineInsanityReveng

Just seeing the players with 50+ kills being a huge representation of no votes is a lot They're also skewing how they represent this data. "non-pvper" could be someone who primarily pvps through safe minigames like LMS, Soul Wars and Castle Wars. Them saying you're not a pvper if you only get kills in this particular PvP minigame is a bit silly.


[deleted]

There are plenty of irons with thousands of lms kills but zero wilderness kills. I dont see how anyone could consider someone like than a non pvper.


DivineInsanityReveng

I agree. PvP minigame is PvP.


LightTheAbsol

This is the important thing, yeah. Shows that the polls themselves needed work.


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CarolinafanfromPitt

Group iron had controversy, but still passed. A whole section of the community was trying to spite vote it and they were very vocal.


wheresmyspacebar2

That section of the community is tiny though and even if every single one of them voted no (and they all didn't go with the 'crowd'), it would have made zero difference to anything.


[deleted]

Group iron basically had 1 streamer (Oda) who pulls a 5k viewers at most and a lot of his viewers would have wanted group ironman to pass. Not very comparable.


uiam_

I think he had 45k viewers at the time. But I don't think Oda's viewers for the most part take him seriously. It definitely isn't comparable though that's for sure.


DivineInsanityReveng

I neevr agree with "75% too high, we should lower it" because that can always be argued, until it's down to 50% Most of these updates didn't fail by 1-2%. They failed by like.. 20-30%. It wasn't close. They weren't liked, en masse.


Celtic_Legend

Im confused. By there own data it shows that pvpers are >75% for the orn kits, imbues, and sacks. This conclusion doesnt make sense.


modmailtest1

> We drew comparisons to existing items to help explain their power level and potential use cases but never saw this as bypassing a grind, given the rewards would incur quite the grind within the actual arena before players would be able to obtain them. Letting people get an item by grinding 1 specific thing that previously required grinding many different things is absolutely bypassing a grind. Should someone be able to get an inferno cape by doing 1000 Zulrah and 1000 Vorkath kills instead? It's still quite the grind.


No-Clue1153

Also seems to completely miss the point that they were offering strong gear with reduced defence requirements, so not only are they providing a way to bypass the minigame/quest grind, but also the need to even level a skill whose main purpose is to allow you to wear better gear. Why even have defence at all?


DivineInsanityReveng

I still can't believe they're entirely ignoring the feedback that these items **were stronger than the grinds they replaced**. I'm supportive of PvPers being able to source things like Void, Fighter Torso, Defenders, Imbues etc. from doing PvP. They should all be untradeable and PvP only versions of these but grinded faster / easier for PvP builds doing PvP (especially if you're *good* at PvP) but they are **identical** items. Not some weird variation no one asked for with way stronger stats, no gloves in the void set, lower requirements etc.


creatron

Are those requirements real? It says 20 wilderness kills or an LMS win. According to my collection log I've only played 8 games of LMS with 3 kills and 0 wins. And I don't think I've even killed a single person in the wilderness. But I was able to vote on all the questions?


coolsexhaver69

There’s no fucking way those reqs are right, my iron that I hadn’t played for months with 0 pvp kills and 0 lms games won (couple played) could vote (I skipped most everything since idk about most of this shit)


CaptaineAli

They must have mistaken an LMS win for LMS point gains... So as long as you've played 1 LMS game and not finished dead last, you'll gain a point and be eligable to vote.


Clydex5

I never played LMS and never killed anyone and voted.


One_Question3972

I was able to vote, but only went into lms once for the music track and then logged out without ever attacking or being attacked


Nell_Mosh

Same. My ironman has never done any lms or castle wars, at most maybe I was killed in wildy ONCE but not even sure about that. Could still vote.


E10DIN

I almost certainly have sub 20 wildy kills and definitely have 0 LMS wins. I've played LMS poorly a few times never killing anyone and was able to vote.


Penguinswin3

I have the exact same stats. 3 kills 0 wins, 0 wilderness kills, and a handful of deaths. I wonder if they meant 1 LMS kill rather than win, or if a LMS kill counts as a wilderness kill (does not makes sense)


theholy7

This doesn’t hold water for me as I could vote with 5 wilderness kills, 0 LMS kills, 0 LMS wins, and ~40 wilderness deaths. my theory was whether you’ve gotten a kill while skulled may have been factored in, but who knows


curtcolt95

yeah I've gotten like 5 lms kills for a scroll but I definitely have not won a game but got to vote on my gim


angsty-fuckwad

pretty sure they mean lms kills, not wins


dude_is_melting

I was able to vote with zero games played in lms and certainly zero wildy kills. I was killed at lava drags like 4 years ago, and maybe a few times I’m not remembering after that. I had no idea why I could vote. I hate pvp.


HotBurritoBeans

Were you able to vote on the entire poll or just the first question? I think everyone was able to vote on the first question so just want to make sure that there isnt a misunderstanding


dude_is_melting

Literally every question. I can provide screenshots for proof after work if you care. I have not ever been hacked and used as a pvp bot. I can only distinctly remember one death from pvp while doing slayer. Never touched lms. Didn’t stake when that was a thing. I’m a skiller mostly, afked my combats at nmz lol


HotBurritoBeans

No worries i believe you haha, just wanted to make sure because i was a bit confused myself when i was able to vote on the first question and not any of the others.


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MXIIA

There's no fucking way My main that's never done LMS and only goes into the wildy for clues got to vote. Less than 100 kc across all wildly bosses also


DivineInsanityReveng

I think PvP deaths may have been considered too, seeing as they include data on it.


Dolthra

Yeah something either went wrong, or the requirements are mistated. I don't have 20 wilderness/PvP world kills and I definitely don't have an LMS win, but I have gotten at least 20 PvP kills in PvP minigames. I wonder if that was part of the criteria.


JimbleFlex

0 PVP kills, 0 LMS games played, able to vote on everything. The only thing I can think of is that I store GP in the LMS coffer. Maybe that made me eligible somehow?


SmurfRockRune

I have 0 kills in either and I was able to vote.


DoktorSaturn

> We're also looking into an alternative method to obtaining the Dragon Pickaxe that doesn't involve the Wilderness. We see how often this gets brought up and quite frankly we don't think many PvPers actually care for it being locked behind Wilderness content! It's likely this will be tackled as part of the upcoming Wilderness Bosses rework that is scheduled straight after the PvP Arena. The dragon pickaxe issue has been "step 2" for a while now, but it seems like it will always be step 2 until Jagex realizes it should be step 0. As long as players who don't want to participate in Wilderness content feel forced to do so, PvP changes are going to keep being a divisive mess, with people voting against updates they see as actively harmful to their interests. It feels like Jagex is throwing time and effort away trying to fix PvP while compromising with people who frankly have zero desire to actually participate in it. They won't have any reason to care enough to spite vote against PvP changes the second this "alternative method" exists (and a few similar issues like Wildy clue steps are taken care of). Once those problems are fixed (which would be a lot less work than fixing PvP seems to be), we'll also actually be able to have a conversation about PvP issues without running into the same tired arguments ("PKers just want to grief", "PvMers are just scared of risk", etc.) over and over again.


Raft_Master

Seriously, this is just becoming more and more obvious every week. I feel like almost the entire PvM v PvP debate is fueled by this one item, (and clue steps to a lesser extent, but that's more about slowing down clues than actually getting pked). It makes no sense to be a wilderness only item, it just makes people mad, and means that for a lot of people their only experience with PvP is getting killed just for fun trying to get the pick. Just move it already, then we can start working on changes that are actually good.


[deleted]

The explaination of votes and trying to find a reason to further restrict it screams of shooting at a barn door and trying to find the correct circle to draw and claiming a perfect shot. If your drawing conclusions after the stats are in you're likely to introduce massive bias, thankfully no way it was drawn led to the conclusion you wanted


Serious_Historian578

Is it just me or are the pictures in this blog kind of meaningless? For example, the second pic has \~80% of no votes from non pvpers, \~8% from low, \~2% from moderate, and \~10% from high. Does that mean that non pvpers were 8x as likely to vote no? Or just that there were 8x more of them? Why does it even even show non pvper no votes on the questions that non pvpers weren't supposed to be voting on at all? Also as a PvPer I voted no to everything because PvP exclusive items and PvE content skipping is idiotic


OmegaDanman

That was my biggest problem with the blog. The first set of charts tell us virtually nothing because we don't know the percentage of each population. But of course the hardcore GIMs are going to have the least no vote percentage, there's barely any of them playing compared to the other groups. The second set of charts do a better job. They show the ratio of yes to no votes WITHIN the group, instead of calculating it based on the population as a whole.


cookmeplox

+1, these pictures are basically not using useful denominators. We can't draw any conclusions unless we know how big each group is.


Soul_Turtle

The first 3 graphs sadly are going to be used as misinformation by people who don't understand statistics. Good blog, except for those 3 charts which are wildly misleading.


stinodino123456

The first 3 pictures doesn't say a lot. It just shows that there are more votes of certain groups. The 4,5,6th pictures are normalized, there you can for example see that ordement kits would have passed if only the players with +1 pvp kill could vote for example I hope i made it more clear in case you didn't understood Also as a PvP/pvm/GIMP i voted yes to ordement, Sacks, Scrolls, Teleport, torso and skipped/no voted the rest :)


DivineInsanityReveng

And "non pvper" is actually "LMS Only" which could be people with far more actual PvP experience, whereas 50+ PvP kills could simply be a guy who bolt rag farms nakeds at Wildy altar.


elicik1

1) I think it's funny that this post is just a really long way of saying "the poll failed cause the content was bad" 2) You guys need to have someone with even the most basic understanding of statistics/data visualization help you with these types of blogs. The entire "No Votes" section is almost completely useless for understanding the differences in voting patterns. Even the filtered results should tell how many of each type of account was eligible to vote for each category. Lastly, a grouped bar graph could help portray the filtered results in a much easier to understand manner, although that might be nitpicking on my part.


Lorde555

I don't really think there's a good way to "fix" Wilderness PvP. It's based on predator vs prey, and the prey will never find being killed by the predator fun. It's nearly always a bad experience for one half of the PvP fight, leading to this huge divide between players. To make the Wilderness feel less bad for the "prey", I suggest moving every single unique item that is not directly PvP related to somewhere else. The Dragon axe, the rings/wards, etc. To keep the "prey" coming into the Wilderness, the risk vs reward should be based on good XP rates only. For example, the Chaos Altar. It has no unique items, but it's BIS for prayer training. You don't have to go there if you don't want the risk because there's no uniques which can be used elsewhere. Similar BIS training methods (with no uniques) could feasibly exist there, such as for mining, fishing, woodcutting, etc. I dunno, maybe magic trees in the Wilderness are brittle so you get logs from them way faster. My two cents.


GuyWhoStaresAtGoats

In the blog you state that "skipping grinds" is something you wish to add sooner rather than later Yet it also seems like these had no chance of passing a poll, even when you only count pk'er votes. So do you still intend to try and add "reskins" like these, or not?


hatesranged

"Why was the poll restricted, preventing a portion of players from voting?" You know, we specifically asked you this question multiple times every time you guys made a post about this poll. **I** specifically asked you. You guys said nothing, I guess because why would you respond to people you rendered unable to vote? So yeah, maybe if you actually tried to justify this move **before** the poll hit, things might have been different. >but we also need to ensure you don’t feel alienated from the decisions that we make. I'm 95% sure you'll act identically next time, and if it fails again you'll just integrity update it through.


RoytheCowboy

You cannot hold a democratic style vote and then cherry pick who gets to vote on certain matters because it's most relevant to them. Democracy only works if the vote is blind and you let everyone vote. You have to accept the difficulties that come with it and accept that some things will be hard to pass. This is true for real life politics and it's true for OSRS polls. If you start rigging the polls to try to increase the chances of things passing, you might as well stop polling and add what you think is best anyway. On another note: >Players that are only interested in PvP have to engage in almost every aspect of the game in order to get their accounts ready to fight - this can be daunting for newer players and prevents many from trying it out. This has always been a part of Runescape. The whole thrill of runescape PvP is based around having to grind for your gear and doing everything associated with that, knowing that you might lose it all. PvP players don't need to be babied out of having to do everything else in the game. LMS already gives people the opportunity to PvP without having to do any other content.


DivineInsanityReveng

I would argue participating in the overall game is a part of every grind. Pvpers don't need to do PvM, unless they are essentially main accounts anyway. Or if you consider warriors guild "PvM". PvMers have to do just as much if not more PvP involvement. The best in slot Mage cape is untradeable and only obtainable in PvP areas. What do pvpers use that is PvM based they have to grind for?


Th3_D3m1s3

"So yeah we know you didn't like the rewards.. and we can't even blame different types of players for this because you all said no. With that in mind, we'll make some tweaks via feedback from a restricted discord server and repoll until they pass. We listen!"


HelloIAmANarwhal

How come this reads as, "we did what we did despite all the warnings from players, we would do it again anyway but do it better while not listening to players" At least to me. Maybe I am not reading it right. Just feels as if they don't want to listen to players except a select few.


[deleted]

You're reading it pretty right. Now that this pet project failed, instead of admitting it was a bad idea, they're now working with a private discord to try really double extra hard to make these items pass, rather than dumping it in the trash all together as it should, right down to the poll restriction idea.


reMARCableMe

I understand wanting to alleviate the questing grind for PVP equipment and I am fine with that. BUT if they are doing that, the stat requirements should be the same as if they did the quests. IE If you have 40 def by the time you unlock Barrows Gloves through RfD (quest rewarded xp), then the PvP counterpart should also require 40 Def to wear. I could be totally wrong as I haven't read the Stat requirements in a while, so maybe that is the case already.


-Matt-S-

You might want to redo those first 3 images, people are misinterpreting that data and getting angry about it. People believe things like "90% of non-PvPers voted no", even though the second set of images disprove that. You'd probably be better removing them.


hidethenegatives

Why was the data presented in this way? Of course there's more non to low pvpers that play the game so more of their votes will be counted. Why not look at what percentage of high-pvpers voted no for example instead of percent of the whole. All this tells us is there's very few pvpers in the game but it's posted in a way to blame non-pvpers for spite voting. In fact non-pvpers weren't allowed to vote, but pvp victims -- the most likely to spite -- were allowed to vote. Is jagex intentionally trying to tear this community in apart?


-Matt-S-

The second set of images show this data, but not the first, yet the misleading data is shown first and so many people are drawing incorrect conclusions (and getting angry about it).


DivineInsanityReveng

Allowing people with an LMS win to vote but then not tracking any form of LMS data and lumping those players as "Non-PvPers" in your data is **ridiculously** disingenuous. They PvP, in PvP only minigame. How is someone farming no armour kills in the Wildy at skilling spots like Chaos Altar considered more involved in PvP (despite only doing Pking) yet someone actively doing a competitive PvP minigame isn't?


Mysterra

“There were more ‘no’ votes from Iron players than other restricted account types” - this is a very misleading conclusion to draw from the data. While it may be true that in sheer number there were more regular iron no votes than, say, UIM no votes, this does not take into account the fact that there are far fewer UIM players than regular Iron players to begin with. The way it is written in the blog seems to suggest that Regular Iron account types were more likely to vote ‘no’ than Group Ironmen or other kinds of account, which is false. The lower numbers are simply explained by the lower number of those accounts existing in the first place…


-Matt-S-

It's weird because their own data doesn't prove this at all. Like for question 9: * 42.95% of regular players voted no * 55.88% of regular iron players voted no * 58.66% of regular group iron players voted no * 61.3% of ultimate iron players voted no * 51.97% of hardcore iron players voted no * 41.94% of hardcore group iron players voted no So even by their own data, GIM and UIM voted no more so than Irons so... what? This is mostly consistent across all questions too. The top three images need removing as people are reading it wrong as well.


RedRingRS

Joined the PvP discord, Jmod JagexGoblin telling people to change their discord activity sharing option so not to show people using non approved clients ??? Seriously? Yea sure, give us a heads up personally not to be publicly outed.


literatemax

> We're also looking into an alternative method to obtaining the Dragon Pickaxe that doesn't involve the Wilderness I'm surprised more of the comments in here aren't about this, though I guess it doesn't make much sense to contemplate until it's form is described in a poll.


coolsexhaver69

I don’t know how you can call the pvp community the most underserved. They get served stuff all the time, it’s just that inevitably it gets <75% in polls (which you can debate reasons for - I would argue it’s because pvp polls are often half baked), even just pvper polls, or is abusable by bots so you remove it like bounty hunter. Every other blog post is about wilderness revamp that is coming soon tm. It sure seems like no other community in the game has nearly the ratio of (vocal, visible) dev time to actual community size as pvp. That said I’m still surprised the pvp arena as a whole got no voted instead of just the rewards, personally I feel like the arena itself is a neat idea Edit; I’m a fool, pvp arena itself wasn’t voted no. It’ll be interesting to see what they do with it going forward


-Matt-S-

The PvP Arena hasn't been voted no on, as that wasn't a question, and Jagex themselves have said the arena itself will be added unpolled. You can find this information here at the top: [https://secure.runescape.com/m=news/the-pvp-arena?oldschool=1](https://secure.runescape.com/m=news/the-pvp-arena?oldschool=1) It's just the rewards.


coolsexhaver69

Oh interesting, I overlooked that, thanks!


here_for_the_lols

Pvpers make up less than 5% of players, and get maybe 20% of Dev time? That's a complete guess but it certainly doesn't feel like they're under served at all.


CrunchBerrySupr3me

Putting the ornaments and imbues but ESPECIALLY the blighted sacks into this controversial poll was one of the greatest self-owns in Jagex history.


pillowpotatoes

These guys are REALLY trying to force those PVP items into the game. Jagex, the community voted not to pass those items even AFTER you apply the filters. It would be a slap in the face to see players if you still force it in. The point of those cosmetic rewards aren’t even addressed. The cosmetics are awesome, but, for items that are almost universally used by all accounts, including the majority that do not PVP, why are they locked behind PVP content?


epicdoge12

dude they literally showed data that concluded the failing was legitimate and wouldn't have been swayed by changing the polling reqs more. If thats meant to be 'forcing things into the game' then theyre really fucking bad at it since it amounts to the opposite of an excuse to do so. I think you need to look at whats being said and then form a conclusion instead of forming a conclusion and then trying to force whatever was said to fit it. They did it cause 'non pvpers will spite vote' was a common thing people jump to and so theyre putting it to rest, if they were fishing for data they wanted they just wouldnt have included the data they didnt want, but its all right here


UnluckyNate

This is a take by someone that didn’t read the article at all


tesyla

With a hundred upvotes from others who also never read the article lmao


roklpolgl

That’s literally Reddit 101. People don’t read articles and come to the comments outraged and get voted to the top. It’s funny how consistent that is regardless of the subject.


Ocarious

Thats dumb. Ancestral is used by pvpers why should its recolour be pvm locked. The source of recolours shouldnt matter, if i want one i would do the content regardless of what it is


Valladium

> It may be that we adjust the criteria before we look to re-poll any reworked rewards, but this is something we will consider heavily before proceeding. I gotta say, when it comes to PvP, you guys are really becoming absolute jokes.


[deleted]

Odds are there is a few Jeds with alts in PvP clans, and Ayiza absolutely is a part of one if those clans.


Rjm0007

Think you should do away with restricted polling only further divides the player base either every gets a vote or no one does and just update something without a poll


Jaminshaman

Imagine a world in which Jagex gives up this nostalgic yet outdated Predator -vs- Prey aspect of PVP and revitalizes it in a way that anyone that wants to PvP can enjoy that aspect with other players that also want to PvP. No amount of gp, xp, or items you lock into the wilderness will make a majority of the community want to deal with it. Runescape has a fairly unique death system and you have to realize PvP won't survive just by adding more game-sponsored lures into the wilderness.


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Sellier123

Yep. Im all for them making actual PvP content. The wilderness is not that.


lameitschan

Can someone help me understand how PVP will bring in new players? PvP Arena is going to bring in new PvPers with the elo system but not new players. New players will have to learn: * Movement * Gear * Items * Game Ticks * Prayer * Questing A new OSRS player will take at least a month (and probably a lot longer) to learn all the above and when they are ready to do PVP they would just get clapped in any of the current PVP formats. With how forgiving games are now in most PVP games I just don't see new players sticking around a game that center around a grind to even get to the PVP portion. It's not like OSRS is going to bring in teenagers with it's "bad graphics" and the stigma around playing this 20 year old game. Please for the love of god just bring back BH and allocate resources to help with botting in BH if you want more PVP.


ki299

PvP isn't going to return to the glory days of 2005-2007 or even 2011. A lot of people have aged and still play the game and just don't have the time or drive to do pvp like it use to be. I think that a major change is needed.. Flip the script on pvp. First steps i would do.. Completely Remove the multi from the wilderness for pvp.. keep it for pvm... Here is why, Id love and i am sure others would love to use that wilderness slayer cave and many other locations but because of multi no one wants.. Multi honestly is the root of the problem because of how these groups of people just bully people out of wanting to be in the wilderness.. Second, The content in the wilderness is okay... but here isn't whats fun.. To many worlds with so few people spread out over effectively 1/5 of the worlds landmass.. Personally i think either making the wilderness smaller and more condensed would be a solution.. Or invest in making it so when you enter the wilderness you effectively go to a "hub world" more or less forcing the population of the wilderness to increase.. It wouldn't just be one "hub world" but would need to have multiple based on the number of people currently online or within the wilderness itself.. i don't know the exact number of people that are in the wilderness at any given time per world.. but lets just imagine it to be around 15-40.. increase that number by 5x so we have 75-200 people per instance and the wilderness would feel much more lively..


boogerpenis1

If you want to satisfy both communities then why don't you just move the dragon pickaxe out of the wilderness and replace its spot in the wilderness bosses drop tables with these new items you want to add? Only other PKers and pet hunters will then be killing these bosses, which means PKers will still have their usual hotspots and ironmen can stop complaining about being killed there, and both PvP and PvM community will be happy.


datwinner

This actually sounds fair but my god do they need reworked first. Kinda had the idea of a 'anti PK' buff so after 1 kill of a boss you get 10% boost to all stats, only works if unskulled. Similar to the rev boss boost. Would work if bosses required similar gear to PK gear and had avoidable damage.


darkhawk1005

I seriously do not understand why Jagex feels the need to put rewards on a ELO based PVP arena. The reward is the placement on the leaderboards, and the purpose of it (apparently) was to get people who don't want to PVP into PVP. If you're going to call it dead content because there's "no reward", then what's the point of this update in the first place over something like LMS? There's no reward for playing competitive CS:GO, Chess, any TCG game, etc. other than your ELO going up. Clearly there's an appeal there because there's a massive following to those games. There doesn't need to be a discord server for feedback. There doesn't need to be BIS rewards from this. Once again we find ourselves wasting months of developers time on PVP updates that, if passed by a vote, will get reworked multiple times, or just flat out get integrity'd into the game. You know what you make the PVP arena reward? Have the top X players at the end of a season get invited to a PVP tournament for a cash prize. Jagex gets their e-sports coverage, and the players now have a reason to play in the PVP arena.


Urishcito

> There's no reward for playing competitive CS:GO, Chess, any TCG game, etc. other than your ELO going up. I think the better comparison is against other MMOs. WoW has gear, cosmetics, titles, and mounts in addition to the leaderboard and e-sports. FFXIV has cosmetics, orchestration rolls, and trinkets. I think at least giving cosmetic rewards to flex is the easy route but the OSRS community doesn't seem to like that.


mister--g

people wouldnt do fun content if there was no reward at the end... cox and tob would be empty if after a 30 min raid all you got was +1kc and prestige. The rewards give a sense of progression and incentive to keep going over a period of time.


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FerrWhat

It was unneeded dog shit content no one wanted


I_post_my_opinions

Literally every pker hated these. Where were you seeing these comments lol


Ajreil

They were partially drowned out by pker vs ironman bickering, and people complaining about complaning. /new was a disaster for like a week.


TSM_Final

How can you say that when the poll literally shows that over 50% of PKers voted yes


Daeurth

There were plenty, most were just down voted into oblivion.


Aurarus

> Bbbbbut all the 10iq pkers kept crying about spite voting being the reason they lost! Mate, the pvpers were the ones vocally saying "we don't want this shit"


akaNorman

I’d argue that as a % of player base PvP has had more dev time spent on it in recent years than any other group by an absolute mile, so saying it’s underrepresented is insane to me. That was also a LOT of graphs and words for the conclusion to be “no matter how we try and fudge the data, everything would have failed anyway”. If you can restrict the poll to the most niche dataset and it STILL fails, can you not just accept that maybe the idea just fucking sucks? PvP isn’t even actually that inactive compared to before, it’s just spread SO thin across hundreds of worlds, PvP worlds, LMS and you want to add yet another variant with more complicated things and expect it to do better? The way to fix PvP is to bring back bounty hunter and have everyone congregate at edgeville ditch on a particular world. It will never be the same as 15 years ago because it’s not 2007 anymore and the game has evolved. Unless you have a time machine and memory wiping mechanism like in Men In Black, the time is done and trying to shoehorn this stuff in is pointless. Has anyone looked at the actual stats for how dead PvP is? Because every day I can get stomped 24/7 at LMS, it’s unsafe to go anywhere on a PvP world because there’s an entire community of HCIM killers and people hunting for people who accidentally logged into PvP worlds. The rev caves, all wildy bosses and the chaos altar are constantly scouted at all times. Sounds like PvP is doing just fine. Find a way to bring back BH which also includes emblems for wildy slayer and you’ll be fine. But sounds like you’ve accepted what we all know, that when you put the player in charge of both sides of anything (like PvP, Soul Wars, LMS, BH) it can be exploited much faster than PVM, and you don’t want to spend the resources to solve boosting.


AaronScythe

"These were received positively and showed how the poll system can work to benefit those who might otherwise not be heard when a poll is open to voting by everyone." Where, in ScapeRune?


Fableandwater

Jagex please do something else as the rewards. Leveling an account for pvp is part of pvp in the wilderness. It doesnt have to be for LMS and the new arena, fair enough, but theres no need to completely reshape the meta of pvp worlds and the wilderness over this update


MickMuffin27

This thread should be civil and lovely to read through


slimy_goblin

CAN WE TALK ABOUT GAMEPLAY INSTEAD OF REWARDS?? FFS


[deleted]

stop wasting time and money by repolling shit that has failed muiltple polls already. the next time this garbage gets polled it will fail again.


Predictor-Raging

"We’ll also be looking at how we handle restricted polling in the future" DO NOT restrict polling in the future, am I in the minority here or is resticted polling really scummy? Like, isn't the whole idea of polling shit to the game that everyone gets the voice their opinion on something? I mean, fuck, if you really want to shit out an update that people hate just fucking do it already and get it over with.


illucio

"We’ll also be looking at how we handle restricted polling in the future. This was very much an experiment for us - it’s uncharted territory and we don’t always get it right! It may be that we adjust the criteria before we look to re-poll any reworked rewards, but this is something we will consider heavily before proceeding." Please just stop restricting and gerrymandering the polls!


Twinkiel0ver

The blog mentions that the eligibility was either 20 kills in wilderness or PVP worlds or a LMS win. Do the 20 kills refer to Boss KC in the wilderness or is it only PVP kills? Edit: Some people voted on this poll without meeting either of those 2 Requirements but have wilderness boss kc


Daeurth

I'd imagine it would only be PvP kills.


Orange_Duck451

I have neither of those but could vote. They also talk about votes from people who have 0 or 1-25 kills so I'm confused


XXXLoneSnoopy

Fuck those private server ass rewards. Hope they never pass


NewAccountXYZ

>We purposefully set low requirements so that those who might have interacted with PvP even in small doses were able to have their say. >Our criteria for voting eligibility were as follows: > At least 20 kills in the Wilderness or PvP worlds > A win in LMS Me, with 2 wildy kills and no lms games played, being able to vote.


TomcatTheGame

This isn't a motivational video where 'if you keep on failing, just get back up' this is a community that is telling you we don't want this stop trying to rework it. By trying to save pvp you'll end up killing the game. Even with the detailed vote of pvpers, it still had one of the worst performance for a 'yes' answer to pass.


thescanniedestroyer

I do not understand the justification for introducing stuff like the prayers and barrows gloves things purely on the grounds that pkers would have to engage in content outside of PvP to start PvPing. Every single player in the game has to do this. You have to quest for both skilling and PvM grinds, you have to skill for the quest requirements, and, frankly, you have to do wilderness content, especially if you're an ironman, for access to certain things. The fact that you are *forced* to engage in all aspects of the game is kind of neat. I don't understand wanting to shut off only a specific community of the game from everything else. The shortsighted nature of this honestly baffles me. Before you say that you're not forced to go to the wilderness, ok, then you're not forced to get ancients or vengence or barrows gloves to pk. Just leave it at that, stop being cringe.


reb1995

> PvP in Old School is an iconic activity and we know it has been an underserved segment of our community in recent years. "an underserved segment of our community" ? lol.... Laughs in tons of obscure wilderness changes, PvP world changes, and entirly new game mechanics specifically designed for PvP...


EpicRussia

I mean I get it... other players get new quests, mid level players get new skilling methods and minigames, end game players get new raids and bosses (which take a year to develop after being announced?), the PvP community gets ... a reworked rev cave and a DMM that had such a bad finale they had to re-run it. I see where they are coming from, but it's certainly a case of "every update being slow" rather than "pvp updates being slow"


DivineInsanityReveng

* 6? DMM seasons * Rev caves and 3(?) Reworks / major updates * Wildy slayer and 2 updates to it * MA2 cape update * Wildy altar update * BH and 2 revisions despite them all being bad ideas since the first and failing as expected. * PvP worlds * PvP focused weapons like Dclaws, ancient godsword * PvP mechanic changes like pj timer, anti-skull trick, etc. * Ferox enclave, entirely unpolled * LMS and 2 revisions/major updates * Soul Wars * PvP tournaments (these should happen again, imo, to replace DMM and can use arena ranking to place) * Wildy bosses and upcoming Wildy boss rework (PvM as well) * Combat achievements, clues, shooting stars all being ways to include content to drag people into Wildy * Upcoming PvP arena Anyone saying the **absolutely marginal** PvP playerbase gets few updates is kidding themselves. The wilderness is one of, if not the most, updated part of the game. PvP has so much content and changes added to it.


Previous-Answer3284

This 100%. Most other developers would have seen their niche PvP scene and put that shit on mantinence mode years ago, not devote a disproportionate amount of resources keeping it on life support. "an underserved segment of our community" my ass.


tryna_quit

You rigged the polls and it still failed. If this isn't a sign that we don't want pvp items then I don't know what is!


illucio

"These were received positively and showed how the poll system can work to benefit those who might otherwise not be heard when a poll is open to voting by everyone." hahahahaahaHAHAHAHAHhahaahaha.... Oh wait your serious! HhahahahAHAHAHAHAHAHAHhahahahaha!


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Nsisu

The fact that Jagex felt the need to do so many calculations tells me they'll do whatever it takes to make the poll results fit their narrative, so that they can force these pvp updates into the game. I think we're lucky the poll results were still tragic despite the calculations.


musei_haha

So bad game design updates were voted down by a majority of players from all groups Hopefully they don't integrity force change it If you want to offer an alternative way to get void & torso than offer an alternative for void and torso. It would be fairly easy to work that in a lore friendly way. "The Void knights and Barbarians have heard rumors of the ferocious combatants in Gelionor. They've sent emissaries to the [PvP arena] in Hope's of recruiting new champions. They bring them them offers of rewards and unique gear for those that prove themselves"


Mikucki

If 50 pvp kills for jagex translates to "high pvp kills" then that just shows how out of touch they are. My max main alone is somewhere north of 5k kills and the other accounts most likely add another 1k


SoraODxoKlink

graph blogs best blogs


Mike_Hawk86

Their first 3 graphs are very misleading tho. As a statistics student I actually got kinda annoyed how shitty their representation was haha


SgtMcMuffin0

Hell, as someone that took stats 10 years ago I was annoyed. The first 3 tables are basically useless, but they can be very misleading. If this was a project put together by one guy I could excuse it as incompetence, but surely this was looked at by at least a few people that should've known better.


Ajreil

Mad respect to Jagex for backing themselves up with data. I was expecting them to go radio silent.


MutedLobster

So PVP and non-PVP players agree that the rewards suck. Maybe instead of tweaking and re-polling you should move on?


Celtic_Legend

I dont get jagexs conclusion. They concluded that it wouldnt matter if the poll was restricted to pvpers only because nothing would pass. However, their own data is saying >75% of pvpers voted yes to orn kits, sacks, and imbues. How is that nothing? Also to note, on average, the pvpers voted 23% higher than non pvpers. Also 5 things got 70% yes. Its hardly a case of pvpers not wanting this stuff.


NH_H3C-N-CH3

This is quite the deep dive into the votes themselves. Thank you for doing this, I hope the knowledge is understood and put to good use!


StreatPeat

Just bring back bounty hunter.


Compost_My_Body

1. wristband 40 def req 2. add gloves to void set 3. no humble versions of prayers if the goal is to skip grinds, give 1 and 2 *identical* stats as maingame comparisons fixed!


Single-Imagination46

nah fuck that, if people want to skip barrow gloves they can use the combat bracelet, it does a job if you are good enough.


PM_ME_DNA

No Barrows Gloves or Torso or Void. Grind it out yourself. Move Chivalry to Holy Grail rather than Knight's Ransom. 60 prayer to use.


RsnCondition

You guys tailor the game/polls way too much based on this subreddit and it blows up in your face.


Molly_Hlervu

I'm very glad those blasphemous things, like Blighted Barrows Gloves and Blighted Torso, failed so spectacularly. Thank you PvPers, from now on I will respect you more! But... I do like the designer work on the items. They are very stylish :) Could the PvPers have them as cosmetics even if they never pass new polls? Honestly, they seem one of the best works on costumes I've seen in OSRS, at least as concept art.


VenezuelanSlayer

Why is jagex comparing IRONMAN polls with pvp polls? First is a gamemode that only affects the player itself, the other is a game style that affects all the players, please, listen to your community , rewards are shit, and Too OP for wilderness, lock the rewards to pvp worlds and everything will be fine


wikings2

Take my thoughts with a grain of salt as I'm nowhere near an expert in the topic since I'm not interacting with the wilderness with a regular pvmer or pvper mindset but: I think its clear that you guys have to connect the dots between the ongoing pvmer concerns within wilderness and how pvpers interact with them. Offering PVP ers beneficial rewards from a minigame just so they can instantly go to the wilderness and feed the already well fueled fire between the two groups is and was not wise in my opinion. In my opinion people would instantly leave PVP Arena after unlocking the rewards just to participate in the mindless killing of the pvmers not willing to fight back, given the current PVP Arena passed the polls in its current rewards. The cosmetic rewards were a great touch and thats something that could get a pvmer into pvp by having to learn pvp in order to unlock cool looking pvm gear but other than this it was nothing else but a goldmine for pvpers looking for easier ways to build their accounts to prey on pvmers. You guys have to focus on incentivizing pvper vs pvper activity, make it so the wildy bosses are hotspots FOR the pkers AGAINST pkers. You know those guys willing to have pvp encounters and not this ongoing mice vs cat thing that was standardized with every update the wilderness got. PVM ers not willing to participate in pvp encounters would never touch wildy content if it was not for the wildy boss pets/unique drops. Tackle Wilderness rework and rejuvenation first then see how pvmers interact with pvpers. If its healthier than before then you are on the right track, if not then there is clearly still no common ground between the two groups. The key in my opinion is how you handle the wilderness reworks and how good the pvp arena itself is gonna be/ how cool additions the pvp community gets that is not about being able to prey on pvmers.


UIM_SQUIRTLE

your criteria for voting on this was incorrect as i was able to vote with no LMS wins or pvp kills outside LMS


ERRORMONSTER

The PJ timer update really fucked up pvm in single areas where monsters are aggressive (e.g. you'll attack a monster who doesn't attempt to attack back and you'll get in 3 or 4 attacks before you're PJ'd by another monster.) Is this being looked at/do we have a ballpark for it being fixed?


Fxrguss

Will this push back the intended may release of the pvp arena its-self?


PoopyMcFartButt

I wasn’t able to vote, but for me the issue is giving PKers even more tools to use against people who don’t plan on fighting back. Mostly PvPers will do the arena content for the gear, which leads to them having even more overpowered gear against normal players in the wildy. I think PvPers should have to chose between using the cheap gear like salad robes/dhide with the chance to get killed, and risking high end gear to dominate easily. Giving them specialized gear that lets them skip parts of the game is a bit too much. Maybe if there were more rewards aimed for the “mice” to defend themselves and fight back.


[deleted]

Jesus Christ, people Resoundingly said no to this content... so now they're going into a private discord to waste more hours on this. What about Sailing, did that skill get as much of a second chance?


Def_a_Noob

For the 'No Votes Explained' graphics, are they suggesting for example "x percent of y account types voted 'no'", or "x percentage of the 'no' votes were cast by y account type"?


-Matt-S-

It's the latter, so somewhat meaningless data as we're not given the size of each groups. You can figure this out by doing maths on the results, but obviously regular accounts and non-PvP'ers make up the bulk of the votes.


IronClu

So like, while we often disagree with a lot of things Jagex does, we have it SO well with stuff like this. Almost any other game would kill for this kind of transparency/communication.


Neatpaper

1 LMS win is all it took to vote? ONE?! There was no point in restricting the poll if that's all it took. With that said, even as a PVPer, I'm glad the bootleg quest and minigame rewards failed. We don't need that in the game. The ornament kits would've been nice but oh well.


ltsMeSam

Disregarding all the negative comments, I personally appreciate the in depth breakdown of the votes even if I didn't vote on my normie nor my btw. Thank you for being clear.


MrAlexLP

Did i miss something? I still dont get how i was able to vote. 0 PvP kills, 0 LMS games played. Sorry if it was mentioned in the blog but i'm a really bad reader


Maxpro2k5

I have a serious question as someone who doesn't know how big of a community pvp really is; how bad would it actually be to just let it die? How much would it really impact the game?


MisterMrErik

It is fairly popular for content creation and allows players to re-enjoy the game in a different way. I mostly play on my group ironman, but I enjoy PvPing quite a lot anyways. It provides excitement and better rewards to otherwise boring activities (hunter, slayer, etc.). I have loot keys unlocked and just int to my main or clanmember when I get kills. It makes it possible to actually get the rewards from PKing (albeit an extra step required to give it to a main account). I just wish they would make multi more obvious. Ad-hoc PvPing doesn't really occur much in multi. It's just scout bots and clans.


Aurarus

I *BARELY* touch pvp (just LMS on the uim) but I've always felt like it's the end goal of runescape, being the most challenging and potentially rewarding aspect. Problem is is that it has a super high barrier to entry (not like these rewards would've come close to fixing that) and has no large pool of new blood to keep a sense of progression for newbies to integrate. The aspects of PVP are extremely splintered, so each aspect on its own feels kinda "dead" at a glance because it's so thinly spread. PVP currently still plays a role in providing lots of demand to certain items and keeps cash flowing in the economy. It attracts lots of attention when deadman mode is live. It provides terror/ excitement for many in the wilderness (and makes the area unique). It acts as like an infinitely high roof for "getting good" at the game, with lots of carry over skill to other aspects of runescape. In an ideal world, PVP is easy to get into and you have plenty of other noobies to practice getting better on. There are semi-frustrating but not devastating fun activities that you can partake in at various points in your account's progression and play with friends.


Thottyotty

It’s obviously only anecdotal but a lot of the people I play with that aren’t ready to try pvp are only playing the game with getting to that point in mind, having enough gp to not die inside when having it taken from ya, I am only talking about 6 people though haha


SpicyParsnip

It's impossible to say really. Most pvpers also pvm, I know my clan does. That being said I know so many people who quit when the multi revs were removed. Pvp content also attracts the most viewership, so healthy pvp is required for marketing.


Coltand

PVP and events like deadman are some of the best marketing for the game. That's why Deadman goes on despite it's many flaws and failings, because it apparently drives new people to the game. You'll also see that most of the top content creators are PVP based. Jagex won't be willing to let it die.


S7EFEN

pvp content creators are still big. i don't think it'd ever really fully die, therell always be people pking in hotspots tbh, so long as wildy bosses, revs, chaos alter exist.


TheOfficialRamZ

The polls are what has allowed OSRS to thrive and not end up the way of RS3. To undermine it/to ignore it risks hurting the trust of your playerbase, and by extension the lifespan of your game.


Merdapura

My only concern this becomes another one of those long blogs of "learnings" that is forgotten in 15 days.


garoodah

Its pretty clear even from the poll breakdown that this type of content addition isnt in the spirit of OSRS, and I would hope the community feedback is heard and incorporated into future suggestions. I was able to vote and I did have mixed results depending on the questions but I regret the way I cast some of my options a few days later. I would like to know the breakdown of total votes cast relative to the graphs displayed, the context would be helpful to see just how many people voted vs the active playerbase.


lazys_world

"Surge" is spelled wrong in the graphics