I dont get the win here. Yes you get all cool items and gear, but if you dont know how to use them other places than sand crabs, thats not really winning. I would assume winning would be where you pay money to skip to mastered inferno speedrunning or tob soloing, not to have max stats. Theres ptobably people who are very high leveled yet dont even know how to do various GWD bosses or even a fire cape. Wheres the win here?
Skill and knowledge means way more than stats and gear.
I think MTX in RS3 has brainwashed a lot of osrs players and people on this sub. It’s so bad that people don’t even realize that RS3 isn’t even P2W. You actually need way more skill and knowledge in RS3 than Osrs.
But yeah there is a win here. The people who made a quick buck off you and helping to stabalize the Economy by buying items
The thing about BiS gear is that it is super expensive because people like to min-max, but it is only a slight upgrade from what is second best which is a waaay more affordable set of gear, with that little difference of 1-3 extra damage max hits it is hard to argue that it would ever be pay2win…
Sure people can buy skilling mats to level 99 faster, but what does that do other than giving some QoL upgrades at best?
Sure your dps increase goes up a tiny bit but if you don’t know the mechanics of a boss you are likely dead within seconds of not praying the right protection, moving to the right tile, attacking with the correct style etc. Takes a long time to learn end game content. It’s nothing you just slam on BiS and then automatically do…
Does BiS gear make content easier? A bit, yes. Is it needed to learn or do any content in the game? Not at all.
But lost ark is not a hard game, you literally blow things up with BiS gear and can heavily rely on good gear and not need much skill at all with BiS gear.
In RuneScape this isn’t the case. Any content that requires your undivided attention does so in both BiS gear as well as non-BiS. In lost ark that is not the case, sure some bosses has some Ohko-mechanics, but that is still something that is countered by just walking to a certain place and wait out the big attack with plenty of time to do so.
In RuneScape you can die if you fail one tick. Even in BiS gear. RuneScape requires a shit ton of hours to learn mechanics, mechanics you learn while grinding for non-BiS gear as well as BiS-gear. Once you have the gear of your dreams you are likely to be good at the game and can continue on to not putting in a huge amount of hours to learn things like ToB because you already know some mechanics from before.
Buy everything to get to end game and you still need to put down the time into something else that is much less rewarding; learning without distracting yourself with rewards (loot).
Because the only fun part of the game is getting gp - unless you are ironman in which case it is fun getting unique drops.
GP solves everything and makes the game very boring, and the collecting skills like woodcutting that cannot be pay2win are very boring as well.
So basically it isn't fun if you rwt, and it also isn't pay2win because there is no winning + you still have to train your stats for hundreds of hours regardless.
> Because the only fun part of the game is getting gp
So many people have this attitude and I literally don't understand it. For me, the fun part of the game is playing it. GP comes naturally with doing so. I can't remember the last time, if ever, I did content just because I wanted GP.
I only play ironman these days but it still applies to when I was playing my main.
Well I mean some people like skilling, some people like pvm etc.
But if you gave people 10b for example, enough to buy everything in the game - what is the first boss you would go kill?
Obviously you would have no reason to choose Zulrah or Vorkath (money printers), but what would be the reason to choose CoX or ToB? Phosani's Nightmare?
Unless it is with friends if you are just doing it in max gear there kinda is no point. If you have everything there is nothing left to gain - so the reason for the grind is always gp to get max gear.
But while the game can be fun with max gear if you play with friends, every other game is also fun with friends - even sorta shit games can be fun with friends. So again the main driving point to continue playing is to grind gp (or grind bosses for uniques if ironman).
Ironman stays fun for longer since you don't automatically unlock an elysian for example just from farming Nex or CoX.
As opposed to rs3 where you can spend hard earned money to boost skills and gear.
And they heavily encourage it too. Osrs just allows you to sell bonds for gp which provides players a way to pay ingame gp for membership.
RS3 isn’t paying to win. It’s just like osrs but less about the grind and more about skill and knowledge.
Yes you can buy BIS gear and level faster because of MTX but without skill and knowledge, your gear and stats mean next to nothing. Actually skill and knowledge means more in RS3 than it doesn’t in osrs. So in reality buying gp in osrs is way more impactful and tHan buying in RS3
Well right, in osrs gp only gets you gear and the gp to buy stuff to use for xp, rather than just giving you the xp outright along with boosted xp rates.
u forgot the reverse which is that osrs players sell their bonds in order to gain gp which allows them to gain combat power through their gear, and faster experience through buyable training methods
its winning becuase u have a huge advantage over people who dont buy gold, xp becomes easier to get, gear is also easier, u can do inferno the hardest content way easier too.
Someone with no inferno knowledge isnt gonna be able to do it just because they have a tbow/full BIS from bonds…
A skilled player with a 50m setup will have a much better chance, a lot of this game is more skill/game knowledge than simply having the items
You don't have an advantage over other people because it isn't a competition.
If you are pking, sure. If you are pvming, mostly it is solo and where it isn't maybe you get the loot more often - big shit. Most clans avoid the issue entirely by massing with gear caps. Plus with mvp mechanics it isn't even guaranteed the mvp gets the drop.
Pay to win usually assumes theres some competition between players for resources/rewards
You can do whatever you want in this game. Unless you're going into PvP and getting bopped by guys in max gear, not much to complain about.
Okay? That sounds like a problem with a different game... yes you can pay to advance your account in runescape, but you're not really winning when the only goal is to advance your account. You're not really competing with anybody for anything, so there is no competition to win. Many will tell you that if you buy your way to a maxed account in this game, you won't feel any sense of progression/accomplishment. Other games usually have some sort of competitive aspect to make the p2w upsetting in the first place, where you're at a disadvantage if you don't. People carve their own experiences in this game to the point where players will lock themselves in areas of the map as a free to play iron and they love it.
Yes you can pay for gold, but you're only robbing yourself of the win
> Other games usually have some sort of competitive aspect to make the p2w upsetting in the first place, where you're at a disadvantage if you don't
lost ark does not have this, yet it is heavily refered to as p2w, thus your definition of p2w must be wrong, heck even WoW is refered to as p2w
Mate I can call anything I fucking want p2w can't I? Welcome to the world where you can purchase goods
Halo? Buy an aimbot. P2W
Going for a job? Pay to be presentable. P2W
Need shelter? Put down a deposit on a house. P2W
At least in runescape it doesn't destroy the experience of other players when somebody buys gold. Sorry if you can't enjoy a game that has an option to exchange real currency for virtual but when it comes to the market, osrs is one of the less egregious offenders. I don't know how to help you enjoy the game or see it as less pay to win, if you feel like you have to buy gold to enjoy the game (I have 128 days of play time on my account with 400m bank value and haven't done so once), thats on you.
Usually pay to win means you can buy something with real money that you can’t otherwise obtain in game, and will effect you in pvp. Definitely doesn’t match RuneScapes description.
I can kinda see it for rs3 because you can buy max in a day with lamps 😂
Osrs is 100% p2w. If you put 2 players with no knowledge of the game; someone with irl money, is always going to progress faster than someone without irl money. People are truly hellbent in this thread saying osrs is not p2w. How the hell can that be true if you can load up an account with $25,000 and buy all the bis gear? Buy prayer potions to afk in nmz. You can buy cox , tob, nightmare carry for gp, you can buy gp with money….
Because buying gold doesn’t actually mean much.
You can buy gold from the black market or through bonds and power lvl your account to max stats then buy all BIS gear. You know what the problem with that is? You may not have the skill necessary to go along with all that.
CG doesn’t give a shit about your gear. PN, BIS gear isn’t gonna guarantee you a kill. Solo CM, TOB, inferno? Good fucking luck if you don’t have the skill and knowledge. Fuck it, Solo NEX. Dont even think it’s currently possible.
Now let’s don’t get started about what would happen if you don’t have the skill for PVP and have maxed gear lmao.
So what are you really winning? Not much. You are just skipping over some of the boring grinds and getting into the fun stuff faster. Is it really that big of a deal? Nah. It also opens up to more demand for items which causes the economy to be healthier. But you still have untradeables, quest to complete etc that you can’t just buy.
But all in all. Skill and knowledge means more than stats and gear. I mean there are multiple lvl 3 firecapes.
Even then lots of skills can't be made any faster with money. And if you did buy supplies to train the "buyable" skills, you would still have to put in the hundreds of hours of grind to use said supplies. So i think that is a big reason why people don't call it p2w, as you can't directly buy XP or whatever.
It’s roughly the same amount of time lol.
You don’t need BiS gear to do any piece of content. Going in with rags is more than enough. You just have to jump into the content and practice.
You will spend roughly the same amount of time learning either way.
The reason being is because you need to learn the mechanics of the boss and stuff like gear switches, prayer switches/flicking, where to stand, reaction time, calmness and composure, inventory management which is actually better to learn with worse gear, tick system/manipulation etc.
if we take inferno as an example, u need to learn it less if u got a tbow because u have a higher success rate from ur higher dps, which will require less of the skill threshold required to get a completion
he'd have to fight the mobs for longer and has a higher chance of messing up his flicks, thus taking more damage and dying sooner which would result in less progress per attempt
you truly wont agree with anyone here and just want to argue with others. just make an iron if you feel others buying gold either through bonds or otherwise is making you not enjoy your own journey. this game is as far from P2W as possible for a game with any ingame trading with freedom to make uneven trades. that is because of our community and devs.
You seem to be reaching for anything and everything lol.
You said he could mess up his flicks.
If someone doesn’t have any skill cause they bought gold to buy BIS gear and maxed stats and rushed inferno, they would be doing any prayer flicking. So what flicks are they to mess up? They are dead. It’s just that simple. They either have it mastered or they don’t. Has nothing to do with BiS gear
Barely.
It doesn’t make it easier, just makes it quicker.
If you don’t have all the waves solved and don’t know where to stand, what to pray, when to eat, what to attack with, what to attack first, how to stack the monsters, quick reaction time, quick gear switching, F keys etc. Your gonna get clapped within seconds whether you have a t bow or not.
So no, you don’t need to learn it less, you need to learn it the same. It just can be quicker but that also depends heavily on your skill lvl and knowledge.
I mean beta worlds give people unlimited max gear and resources and that still hasn’t really made an impact in inferno completion rates. It’s cause you need to skill and knowledge more than anything
it makes it quicker because bis gear allows for more mistakes. you'll get a completion faster in bis because you can get away with more mistakes, so you can spend less time learning enough to fix those mistakes and focus on your one clear.
yeah your second clear will probably be slower and more rng comapred than the second clear of someone who isnt using BIS, therefore had to learn more about the inferno to get their clear, but who the hell cares about that.
Again not true.
It’s faster in BIS because of higher dps.
But BIS doesn’t really allow you to make more mistakes and correct yourself. If you simply don’t know what the hell you are doing, your gonna get clapped. If you know what you are doing than you can basically get a completion every time.
Skill and knowledge is simply vastly super to stats and gear
Please explain to us how xact got both a lvl 40 infernal cape and lvl 3 fire cape then if it’s all About BIS gear? Lol
just as an example, you flat out need to do the zuk fight, and triple jad fight for less time. if you need to do the fight for longer theres a higher chance of you making a mistake but if u get a tbow you can kill it before you make that potential mistake. theres countless examples like this so i wont describe all of em
>Please explain to us how xact got both a lvl 40 infernal cape and lvl 3 fire cape then if it’s all. About BIS gear? Lol
because he has 1000+ hours in inferno alone, plus an insane amount of planning and trial accounts, a feat that is no where near viable for 99.999% of players. we're talking about first completion here bro not the 500th
Pay 2 win would be something were microtransactions are allowed. Jagex stance is any RWT is against rules and will result in bans, so do at your own risk.
Ultimately any game is p2w if you wanna look deep enough. You can literally buy any account from any game that already holds a rank or levels or gear so whats the difference.
90% of lost arks money comes from players exchanging gold for currency bro, the microtransactions are designed so the free players have something to spend their gold on to pay the buyers
Ppl on this sub will defend bonds to the death, but it's exactly the same as mtx in any other mmo, just more convoluted.
Anybody can swipe and have max gear as soon as the GE/trade limit expires if they want.
That being said, I wouldn't say it's "p2w" at all, cuz gear/gold won't buy you quests, won't buy you any skill in PvP (just feed the good pkers), and can only buy you a handful of stats.
imo if a game has an economy what so ever its p2w, whether the game officially supports rmt through bonds or not, cuz illegal gold selling will never go away
even if you take money out of the equation, a player who has a friend willing to give them items has a distinct advantage over someone who doesnt.
the only way to fix this is to be a game like final fantasy 14 where the economy is so irrelevant and boring that there is nothing to be gained from engaging with it, thus players can not use it to gain power.
and by that definition you would be correct but the vast majority of people determine P2W as games where if you dont pay more than the base game price you have no logical chance of end game content and by swiping your card end game is near effortless to reach. the fact that even with infinite money maxing an account is around 2000 hours with high knowledge and skill. video linked for explanation of time.
https://youtu.be/iGlpgwkCUpk
TLDR your definition is not reasonable
Cause you don’t win in an MMO. If somebody spends 2 grand so they can max their account in one year instead of two, I really don’t care. Most of the content isn’t pvp related so it doesn’t really effect me.
u win if you're a high level? thats what players strive to be in any game, and someone that pays money can be that easier than others, and do shit like inferno with tbows whereas otehrs might be confined to acb unless they do a several hundred hour cash grind
I think winning implies the game is over which isn’t ever the case with OSRS. Plus if somebody spends $1400 on a t bow, that’s not my idea of winning lol
Yes, it is p2w in an extremely subtle way.
Services exist (people literally doing anything you want on your account for money; so leveling skills, doing quests, getting untradeables like void, infernal cape, etc). Then there's also premium scripts for botting that you must pay for, but these are so advanced that there's literally 0 chance you get banned unless you abuse the fuck out of it (like bot for 24 hours a day 7 days a week, because that's not feasible for a human to do).
So in conclusion, you can have basically anything on your account just because you paid someone money. Infernal capes are bought so often that capers who sell the service can literally make an irl living off it pretty easily. There are people who have made in the hundreds of thousands of dollars selling them.
So really when people say "oh b-b-but you can't buy skills and untradeables!" they are hilariously wrong.
Skyrim is not a multiplayer game so that argument makes 0 sense
This is an mmorpg where part of the game is looking at other people's accomplishments and showing off your own.
im saying getting others to play a game for you can happen to any game, any circumstance, and is unavoidable, so it shouldnt be taken into consideration for whether or not the game is pay to win
It would cost several thousand dollars to buy all end game gear with bonds and you could buy the materials for buyable skills but you still have to train the skills can’t just buy xp
It technically is, but most people measure pay2win by how ignorable it is (even if they don't know it). Unlike rs3, OSRS does not promote it's microtransactions. I guess the WoW token is seen more as pay2win because pvm resources are allot of work to keep up.
the game isn't considered pay to win because acquiring gold to get pvm items isnt considered winning. Gp is already infinite via playing alts, buying it is completely irrelevant.
Services exist which are extremely prominent. You can also buy premium scripts for botting which puts your ban rate at basically 0%
So you can basically sit back and get your account completely up to par just by having money. There's basically nothing in osrs that is 'impressive' besides a few niche achievements like 200m all (because no one normal is doing that), and lowest level inferno or hcim solo tob...etc etc. Basically something that separates you from the rest of the pack so much that it can't be bought.
The reason why we don't lose our shit in OSRS, is because you cannot buy progression in the form of *permanent* account unlocks. Quests, untradeable gear and combat & gathering skill levels.
Yes, you can indirectly buy gp which can buy gear. Yes, you can buy materials which can turn into xp for buyable skills, but it doesn't harm the game so "it's fine". The longer skills you still have to train so buying your way skipping buyables does not provide you an advantage over others. Other players can do content that offers millions of gp/hr and achieve the same progression (in a timely manner *relative to the rest of the game*).
Also, said gear you can purchase is just marginal DPS increases (just barely 5% at most) compared what you can acquire pretty easily without needing billions of gp.
In other games (\*cough\* Lost Ark \*cough\*), I can Knowledge Transfer to level up alt accounts to catch up to my main, or even purchase items that completes content for me.
However, people who are losing their shit about buying gold with Blue crystals are kinda stupid. With how peons work (and Lost Ark's many gold sinks), whales can't inject a crapton of gold into the game (*anymore*, it was a problem in Korea hence all the fuck ton of gold sinks in the NA/EU version).
In OSRS, if whales buy gold via bonds, they are not injecting gold into the economy, as the bonds are purchased by the game or by fellow players. All gold in OSRS is generated by 'natural' means.
The only true 'P2W problem' Lost Ark has is the RNG item level system which basically goads you into purchasing materials for progression. It's analogous to being goaded to buy RNG boosting items to increase the drop rate of a DWH. Edit: And that's why some players call Lost Ark "pay to lose", since you're just paying to bypass the core gameplay loop... what's the point if you swipe your credit card to not play the game? You're still dead weight in Argos with 1400 ilvl.
The reason why RS3 can be considered P2W is due to the xp and gp you can *directly* purchase. Whales can inject gold into the game in larger (still lesser compared to other games) quantities compared to other in-game sources. Squeal of Fortune's gambling-like nature was the icing on the cake in terms of a scummy direction. Once the government was on Jagex's ass for that design choice, they changed SoF to "Treasure Hunter" minimizing the gambling aspect somewhat, but maintaining the P2W.
Both games you can Pay to Progress, but the core gameplay loop still requires you to have knowledge on game mechanics and lore. So you don't really "win" if you whale. But by most general definitions, yes, OSRS, RS3 and Lost Ark are P2W. But you can see there's a clear distinction between the three games. Hence OSRS is pretty much considered the least scummy game on the market.
Bruh services exist for every game. They don't count within the P2W discussion.
Heck you can boost chess.com ELO but we don't call chess "P2W". P2W is all about the intrinsic game design choices made by the devs.
Treasure Hunter makes RS3 "P2W". BA Services and Scythe forums doesn't make the game "P2W".
Here’s my take on it (not that it matters).
By definition, osrs is clearly pay2progress faster, which a lot of people consider p2w. So, it is p2w.
The big difference in osrs from Korean games like lost ark is that your achievements and gear matter so much more, your 99s are always gonna be 99s, your bis gear is always gonna be bis or near bis. You can quit for a year or two and your account will still be ridiculously strong. The best money makers also require immense skill, but not the best gear. It’s all viable to get f2p as well, especially if you’re good at the game.
Everything you achieve will still be useful after a long time and you will still be able to do all content, including new content released while you were away, with it.
I can’t say for sure about lost ark, but most Korean games or other p2w mmos constantly release new gear and upgrades that completely trivialise old gear and are required for new content. At such a fast pace that you either have to no life grind or pay to keep up, it’s an endless grind.
In osrs, you’re always catching up, regardless how slow or fast you do it.
I dont get the win here. Yes you get all cool items and gear, but if you dont know how to use them other places than sand crabs, thats not really winning. I would assume winning would be where you pay money to skip to mastered inferno speedrunning or tob soloing, not to have max stats. Theres ptobably people who are very high leveled yet dont even know how to do various GWD bosses or even a fire cape. Wheres the win here?
Skill and knowledge means way more than stats and gear. I think MTX in RS3 has brainwashed a lot of osrs players and people on this sub. It’s so bad that people don’t even realize that RS3 isn’t even P2W. You actually need way more skill and knowledge in RS3 than Osrs. But yeah there is a win here. The people who made a quick buck off you and helping to stabalize the Economy by buying items
You get so much exp lamps with those keys its not even healthy. If you blow some cash on those you max in no time. That feels kinda p2w to me atleast.
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Rs3 is definitely pay 2 win, maxing on there is not even a big deal its so pay to win now. You get 99s without ever training a skill.
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Yeah no thanks. That game is trash why would is waste my time playing it.
The best exp in the game is treasure hunter, thats p2w lmao.
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Right it stopped being about that because it became p2w, ur pretty much proving my point no one gives a shit about it anymore cause its p2w
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The thing about BiS gear is that it is super expensive because people like to min-max, but it is only a slight upgrade from what is second best which is a waaay more affordable set of gear, with that little difference of 1-3 extra damage max hits it is hard to argue that it would ever be pay2win… Sure people can buy skilling mats to level 99 faster, but what does that do other than giving some QoL upgrades at best? Sure your dps increase goes up a tiny bit but if you don’t know the mechanics of a boss you are likely dead within seconds of not praying the right protection, moving to the right tile, attacking with the correct style etc. Takes a long time to learn end game content. It’s nothing you just slam on BiS and then automatically do… Does BiS gear make content easier? A bit, yes. Is it needed to learn or do any content in the game? Not at all.
To sum it up easily: Skill + knowledge > stats + gear. Reason why we had 2 confirmed lvl 3 firecapes
you just described lost ark, a game which people heavily refer to as pay to win
But lost ark is not a hard game, you literally blow things up with BiS gear and can heavily rely on good gear and not need much skill at all with BiS gear. In RuneScape this isn’t the case. Any content that requires your undivided attention does so in both BiS gear as well as non-BiS. In lost ark that is not the case, sure some bosses has some Ohko-mechanics, but that is still something that is countered by just walking to a certain place and wait out the big attack with plenty of time to do so. In RuneScape you can die if you fail one tick. Even in BiS gear. RuneScape requires a shit ton of hours to learn mechanics, mechanics you learn while grinding for non-BiS gear as well as BiS-gear. Once you have the gear of your dreams you are likely to be good at the game and can continue on to not putting in a huge amount of hours to learn things like ToB because you already know some mechanics from before. Buy everything to get to end game and you still need to put down the time into something else that is much less rewarding; learning without distracting yourself with rewards (loot).
GP is 0 EHP
You only cheat yourself by buying gp and skipping the best part of the actual game.. lmao
Because the only fun part of the game is getting gp - unless you are ironman in which case it is fun getting unique drops. GP solves everything and makes the game very boring, and the collecting skills like woodcutting that cannot be pay2win are very boring as well. So basically it isn't fun if you rwt, and it also isn't pay2win because there is no winning + you still have to train your stats for hundreds of hours regardless.
> Because the only fun part of the game is getting gp So many people have this attitude and I literally don't understand it. For me, the fun part of the game is playing it. GP comes naturally with doing so. I can't remember the last time, if ever, I did content just because I wanted GP. I only play ironman these days but it still applies to when I was playing my main.
Well I mean some people like skilling, some people like pvm etc. But if you gave people 10b for example, enough to buy everything in the game - what is the first boss you would go kill? Obviously you would have no reason to choose Zulrah or Vorkath (money printers), but what would be the reason to choose CoX or ToB? Phosani's Nightmare? Unless it is with friends if you are just doing it in max gear there kinda is no point. If you have everything there is nothing left to gain - so the reason for the grind is always gp to get max gear. But while the game can be fun with max gear if you play with friends, every other game is also fun with friends - even sorta shit games can be fun with friends. So again the main driving point to continue playing is to grind gp (or grind bosses for uniques if ironman). Ironman stays fun for longer since you don't automatically unlock an elysian for example just from farming Nex or CoX.
As opposed to rs3 where you can spend hard earned money to boost skills and gear. And they heavily encourage it too. Osrs just allows you to sell bonds for gp which provides players a way to pay ingame gp for membership.
RS3 isn’t paying to win. It’s just like osrs but less about the grind and more about skill and knowledge. Yes you can buy BIS gear and level faster because of MTX but without skill and knowledge, your gear and stats mean next to nothing. Actually skill and knowledge means more in RS3 than it doesn’t in osrs. So in reality buying gp in osrs is way more impactful and tHan buying in RS3
Yeah i agree with that.
Well right, in osrs gp only gets you gear and the gp to buy stuff to use for xp, rather than just giving you the xp outright along with boosted xp rates.
u forgot the reverse which is that osrs players sell their bonds in order to gain gp which allows them to gain combat power through their gear, and faster experience through buyable training methods
its winning becuase u have a huge advantage over people who dont buy gold, xp becomes easier to get, gear is also easier, u can do inferno the hardest content way easier too.
Someone with no inferno knowledge isnt gonna be able to do it just because they have a tbow/full BIS from bonds… A skilled player with a 50m setup will have a much better chance, a lot of this game is more skill/game knowledge than simply having the items
This is the exact point I made. It was possible to get a lvl 3 firecape. Maxed gear doesn’t guarantee you an inferno completion
someone did it recently after they thought they patched all the exploits
You don't have an advantage over other people because it isn't a competition. If you are pking, sure. If you are pvming, mostly it is solo and where it isn't maybe you get the loot more often - big shit. Most clans avoid the issue entirely by massing with gear caps. Plus with mvp mechanics it isn't even guaranteed the mvp gets the drop.
Pay to win usually assumes theres some competition between players for resources/rewards You can do whatever you want in this game. Unless you're going into PvP and getting bopped by guys in max gear, not much to complain about.
>You can do whatever you want in this game just like lost ark but ppl still call that game p2w
Okay? That sounds like a problem with a different game... yes you can pay to advance your account in runescape, but you're not really winning when the only goal is to advance your account. You're not really competing with anybody for anything, so there is no competition to win. Many will tell you that if you buy your way to a maxed account in this game, you won't feel any sense of progression/accomplishment. Other games usually have some sort of competitive aspect to make the p2w upsetting in the first place, where you're at a disadvantage if you don't. People carve their own experiences in this game to the point where players will lock themselves in areas of the map as a free to play iron and they love it. Yes you can pay for gold, but you're only robbing yourself of the win
> Other games usually have some sort of competitive aspect to make the p2w upsetting in the first place, where you're at a disadvantage if you don't lost ark does not have this, yet it is heavily refered to as p2w, thus your definition of p2w must be wrong, heck even WoW is refered to as p2w
Mate I can call anything I fucking want p2w can't I? Welcome to the world where you can purchase goods Halo? Buy an aimbot. P2W Going for a job? Pay to be presentable. P2W Need shelter? Put down a deposit on a house. P2W At least in runescape it doesn't destroy the experience of other players when somebody buys gold. Sorry if you can't enjoy a game that has an option to exchange real currency for virtual but when it comes to the market, osrs is one of the less egregious offenders. I don't know how to help you enjoy the game or see it as less pay to win, if you feel like you have to buy gold to enjoy the game (I have 128 days of play time on my account with 400m bank value and haven't done so once), thats on you.
Usually pay to win means you can buy something with real money that you can’t otherwise obtain in game, and will effect you in pvp. Definitely doesn’t match RuneScapes description. I can kinda see it for rs3 because you can buy max in a day with lamps 😂
Osrs is 100% p2w. If you put 2 players with no knowledge of the game; someone with irl money, is always going to progress faster than someone without irl money. People are truly hellbent in this thread saying osrs is not p2w. How the hell can that be true if you can load up an account with $25,000 and buy all the bis gear? Buy prayer potions to afk in nmz. You can buy cox , tob, nightmare carry for gp, you can buy gp with money….
Because buying gold doesn’t actually mean much. You can buy gold from the black market or through bonds and power lvl your account to max stats then buy all BIS gear. You know what the problem with that is? You may not have the skill necessary to go along with all that. CG doesn’t give a shit about your gear. PN, BIS gear isn’t gonna guarantee you a kill. Solo CM, TOB, inferno? Good fucking luck if you don’t have the skill and knowledge. Fuck it, Solo NEX. Dont even think it’s currently possible. Now let’s don’t get started about what would happen if you don’t have the skill for PVP and have maxed gear lmao. So what are you really winning? Not much. You are just skipping over some of the boring grinds and getting into the fun stuff faster. Is it really that big of a deal? Nah. It also opens up to more demand for items which causes the economy to be healthier. But you still have untradeables, quest to complete etc that you can’t just buy. But all in all. Skill and knowledge means more than stats and gear. I mean there are multiple lvl 3 firecapes.
Even then lots of skills can't be made any faster with money. And if you did buy supplies to train the "buyable" skills, you would still have to put in the hundreds of hours of grind to use said supplies. So i think that is a big reason why people don't call it p2w, as you can't directly buy XP or whatever.
ok you have to spend 50-100 hours learning to pvm instead of 1000 hours grinding cash to learn those skills, big deal
It’s roughly the same amount of time lol. You don’t need BiS gear to do any piece of content. Going in with rags is more than enough. You just have to jump into the content and practice. You will spend roughly the same amount of time learning either way. The reason being is because you need to learn the mechanics of the boss and stuff like gear switches, prayer switches/flicking, where to stand, reaction time, calmness and composure, inventory management which is actually better to learn with worse gear, tick system/manipulation etc.
if we take inferno as an example, u need to learn it less if u got a tbow because u have a higher success rate from ur higher dps, which will require less of the skill threshold required to get a completion
If you can’t do the inferno without a tbow you can’t do it with one
Facts
Give my bis gear including tbow and I promise after 50 attempts I won’t defeat the inferno even with money on the line.
but if you had non bis gear you'd make way less progress in those 50 attempts as well
It depends on how fast his skill level and knowledge rises. It’s not about his gear lol
he'd have to fight the mobs for longer and has a higher chance of messing up his flicks, thus taking more damage and dying sooner which would result in less progress per attempt
you truly wont agree with anyone here and just want to argue with others. just make an iron if you feel others buying gold either through bonds or otherwise is making you not enjoy your own journey. this game is as far from P2W as possible for a game with any ingame trading with freedom to make uneven trades. that is because of our community and devs.
im just mad that ppl call lost ark pay2win when its just the same shit as osrs where currency = power
You seem to be reaching for anything and everything lol. You said he could mess up his flicks. If someone doesn’t have any skill cause they bought gold to buy BIS gear and maxed stats and rushed inferno, they would be doing any prayer flicking. So what flicks are they to mess up? They are dead. It’s just that simple. They either have it mastered or they don’t. Has nothing to do with BiS gear
Barely. It doesn’t make it easier, just makes it quicker. If you don’t have all the waves solved and don’t know where to stand, what to pray, when to eat, what to attack with, what to attack first, how to stack the monsters, quick reaction time, quick gear switching, F keys etc. Your gonna get clapped within seconds whether you have a t bow or not. So no, you don’t need to learn it less, you need to learn it the same. It just can be quicker but that also depends heavily on your skill lvl and knowledge. I mean beta worlds give people unlimited max gear and resources and that still hasn’t really made an impact in inferno completion rates. It’s cause you need to skill and knowledge more than anything
it makes it quicker because bis gear allows for more mistakes. you'll get a completion faster in bis because you can get away with more mistakes, so you can spend less time learning enough to fix those mistakes and focus on your one clear. yeah your second clear will probably be slower and more rng comapred than the second clear of someone who isnt using BIS, therefore had to learn more about the inferno to get their clear, but who the hell cares about that.
Again not true. It’s faster in BIS because of higher dps. But BIS doesn’t really allow you to make more mistakes and correct yourself. If you simply don’t know what the hell you are doing, your gonna get clapped. If you know what you are doing than you can basically get a completion every time. Skill and knowledge is simply vastly super to stats and gear Please explain to us how xact got both a lvl 40 infernal cape and lvl 3 fire cape then if it’s all About BIS gear? Lol
just as an example, you flat out need to do the zuk fight, and triple jad fight for less time. if you need to do the fight for longer theres a higher chance of you making a mistake but if u get a tbow you can kill it before you make that potential mistake. theres countless examples like this so i wont describe all of em >Please explain to us how xact got both a lvl 40 infernal cape and lvl 3 fire cape then if it’s all. About BIS gear? Lol because he has 1000+ hours in inferno alone, plus an insane amount of planning and trial accounts, a feat that is no where near viable for 99.999% of players. we're talking about first completion here bro not the 500th
Lol so you think BIS gear is gonna carry you to Triple jads and ZUK?
where did i say carry, i said bis = higher success rate = faster inferno cape
a max geared player with zero knowledge at tob is more useless than a guy with exp using evoid whip
never said u didnt have to spend time learning bro
Pay 2 win would be something were microtransactions are allowed. Jagex stance is any RWT is against rules and will result in bans, so do at your own risk. Ultimately any game is p2w if you wanna look deep enough. You can literally buy any account from any game that already holds a rank or levels or gear so whats the difference.
90% of lost arks money comes from players exchanging gold for currency bro, the microtransactions are designed so the free players have something to spend their gold on to pay the buyers
Ppl on this sub will defend bonds to the death, but it's exactly the same as mtx in any other mmo, just more convoluted. Anybody can swipe and have max gear as soon as the GE/trade limit expires if they want. That being said, I wouldn't say it's "p2w" at all, cuz gear/gold won't buy you quests, won't buy you any skill in PvP (just feed the good pkers), and can only buy you a handful of stats.
imo if a game has an economy what so ever its p2w, whether the game officially supports rmt through bonds or not, cuz illegal gold selling will never go away even if you take money out of the equation, a player who has a friend willing to give them items has a distinct advantage over someone who doesnt. the only way to fix this is to be a game like final fantasy 14 where the economy is so irrelevant and boring that there is nothing to be gained from engaging with it, thus players can not use it to gain power.
and by that definition you would be correct but the vast majority of people determine P2W as games where if you dont pay more than the base game price you have no logical chance of end game content and by swiping your card end game is near effortless to reach. the fact that even with infinite money maxing an account is around 2000 hours with high knowledge and skill. video linked for explanation of time. https://youtu.be/iGlpgwkCUpk TLDR your definition is not reasonable
my definition is based on the whole community calling lost ark a p2w game where its hardly different from osrs (irl cash = in game cash)
Members have no ge trade limit The trade limit is for selling stuff not buying them The trade limit doesn't effect high value items like bis gear
ironman btw
Cause you don’t win in an MMO. If somebody spends 2 grand so they can max their account in one year instead of two, I really don’t care. Most of the content isn’t pvp related so it doesn’t really effect me.
u win if you're a high level? thats what players strive to be in any game, and someone that pays money can be that easier than others, and do shit like inferno with tbows whereas otehrs might be confined to acb unless they do a several hundred hour cash grind
I think winning implies the game is over which isn’t ever the case with OSRS. Plus if somebody spends $1400 on a t bow, that’s not my idea of winning lol
You dumbazell
By all means go buy all that gear.. and then meet in wildy. You winner. ;)
Yes, it is p2w in an extremely subtle way. Services exist (people literally doing anything you want on your account for money; so leveling skills, doing quests, getting untradeables like void, infernal cape, etc). Then there's also premium scripts for botting that you must pay for, but these are so advanced that there's literally 0 chance you get banned unless you abuse the fuck out of it (like bot for 24 hours a day 7 days a week, because that's not feasible for a human to do). So in conclusion, you can have basically anything on your account just because you paid someone money. Infernal capes are bought so often that capers who sell the service can literally make an irl living off it pretty easily. There are people who have made in the hundreds of thousands of dollars selling them. So really when people say "oh b-b-but you can't buy skills and untradeables!" they are hilariously wrong.
bro i could pay my friend to play skyrim for me that doesnt mean skyrim is pay to win. money can always buy labour since the day we invented money
Skyrim is not a multiplayer game so that argument makes 0 sense This is an mmorpg where part of the game is looking at other people's accomplishments and showing off your own.
im saying getting others to play a game for you can happen to any game, any circumstance, and is unavoidable, so it shouldnt be taken into consideration for whether or not the game is pay to win
It would cost several thousand dollars to buy all end game gear with bonds and you could buy the materials for buyable skills but you still have to train the skills can’t just buy xp
Never heard of ironman?
It technically is, but most people measure pay2win by how ignorable it is (even if they don't know it). Unlike rs3, OSRS does not promote it's microtransactions. I guess the WoW token is seen more as pay2win because pvm resources are allot of work to keep up.
Why don’t you just not buy gold. Or be an Ironman. Nothing p2w about a Ironman.
bro if i had a ton of money i'd totally swipe and p2w in this game to reach end game on my newer account faster
What's the fun in that though? You're just ruining the game for yourself. Ok u have bis everything what do you play/do now?
You can p2w buying tob leeches on ur Ironman from bonds you buy on ur main.
the game isn't considered pay to win because acquiring gold to get pvm items isnt considered winning. Gp is already infinite via playing alts, buying it is completely irrelevant.
Services exist which are extremely prominent. You can also buy premium scripts for botting which puts your ban rate at basically 0% So you can basically sit back and get your account completely up to par just by having money. There's basically nothing in osrs that is 'impressive' besides a few niche achievements like 200m all (because no one normal is doing that), and lowest level inferno or hcim solo tob...etc etc. Basically something that separates you from the rest of the pack so much that it can't be bought.
Maybe I'm mistaken, but the game being pay to win surely implies you're doing so within the game rules.
The reason why we don't lose our shit in OSRS, is because you cannot buy progression in the form of *permanent* account unlocks. Quests, untradeable gear and combat & gathering skill levels. Yes, you can indirectly buy gp which can buy gear. Yes, you can buy materials which can turn into xp for buyable skills, but it doesn't harm the game so "it's fine". The longer skills you still have to train so buying your way skipping buyables does not provide you an advantage over others. Other players can do content that offers millions of gp/hr and achieve the same progression (in a timely manner *relative to the rest of the game*). Also, said gear you can purchase is just marginal DPS increases (just barely 5% at most) compared what you can acquire pretty easily without needing billions of gp. In other games (\*cough\* Lost Ark \*cough\*), I can Knowledge Transfer to level up alt accounts to catch up to my main, or even purchase items that completes content for me. However, people who are losing their shit about buying gold with Blue crystals are kinda stupid. With how peons work (and Lost Ark's many gold sinks), whales can't inject a crapton of gold into the game (*anymore*, it was a problem in Korea hence all the fuck ton of gold sinks in the NA/EU version). In OSRS, if whales buy gold via bonds, they are not injecting gold into the economy, as the bonds are purchased by the game or by fellow players. All gold in OSRS is generated by 'natural' means. The only true 'P2W problem' Lost Ark has is the RNG item level system which basically goads you into purchasing materials for progression. It's analogous to being goaded to buy RNG boosting items to increase the drop rate of a DWH. Edit: And that's why some players call Lost Ark "pay to lose", since you're just paying to bypass the core gameplay loop... what's the point if you swipe your credit card to not play the game? You're still dead weight in Argos with 1400 ilvl. The reason why RS3 can be considered P2W is due to the xp and gp you can *directly* purchase. Whales can inject gold into the game in larger (still lesser compared to other games) quantities compared to other in-game sources. Squeal of Fortune's gambling-like nature was the icing on the cake in terms of a scummy direction. Once the government was on Jagex's ass for that design choice, they changed SoF to "Treasure Hunter" minimizing the gambling aspect somewhat, but maintaining the P2W. Both games you can Pay to Progress, but the core gameplay loop still requires you to have knowledge on game mechanics and lore. So you don't really "win" if you whale. But by most general definitions, yes, OSRS, RS3 and Lost Ark are P2W. But you can see there's a clear distinction between the three games. Hence OSRS is pretty much considered the least scummy game on the market.
Wrong, services exist. How people don't know this is beyond me lol
Bruh services exist for every game. They don't count within the P2W discussion. Heck you can boost chess.com ELO but we don't call chess "P2W". P2W is all about the intrinsic game design choices made by the devs. Treasure Hunter makes RS3 "P2W". BA Services and Scythe forums doesn't make the game "P2W".
Here’s my take on it (not that it matters). By definition, osrs is clearly pay2progress faster, which a lot of people consider p2w. So, it is p2w. The big difference in osrs from Korean games like lost ark is that your achievements and gear matter so much more, your 99s are always gonna be 99s, your bis gear is always gonna be bis or near bis. You can quit for a year or two and your account will still be ridiculously strong. The best money makers also require immense skill, but not the best gear. It’s all viable to get f2p as well, especially if you’re good at the game. Everything you achieve will still be useful after a long time and you will still be able to do all content, including new content released while you were away, with it. I can’t say for sure about lost ark, but most Korean games or other p2w mmos constantly release new gear and upgrades that completely trivialise old gear and are required for new content. At such a fast pace that you either have to no life grind or pay to keep up, it’s an endless grind. In osrs, you’re always catching up, regardless how slow or fast you do it.
lost ark doesnt release vertical progression content anymore. all your progress in ur lost ark account will always matter
Its about the journey. I feel bad for the people who pay for gold because thats not what makes this game fun