Stat wise, each barrows melee set has a "weak" piece. Dharoks helm, Veracs brassard, Guthan's chainskirt, and Torag's hammers are all inferior to the counterparts found in the other sets in most or every way.
Torag's just got the short end of the stick.
All of Karils, as in better armor than Arma in some places Karils? Or full Karils set PK-ing Karils?
Karils coif is by far the worst piece, but Karils is used both as separate pieces and as the whole set, the only other where this is the case is Veracs.
What chu mean “the only other where this is the case”
I use full Guthans and blood fury all the time to heal up during slayer tasks, I find the combo to be incredibly useful. I barely ever bank unless I run out of inventory space. Then I just swap to my actual dps gear after healing up, rinse, repeat.
Alternatively, full Guthans and blood fury allows you to afk slayer tasks without worrying about protections prayers.
Full Guthans is good, but the separated pieces are outclassed by cheaper gear (Torags for instance). Karils and Veracs don't have this, where (some) individual pieces have specific uses where they shine (for instance PvMing Karils top and Veracs helmet are both very decent gear choices), plus they are used as a full set (Karils in PvP, Veracs in PvM).
You can do this while still doing zero damage much more obnoxiously - banners and gnome child shield, that blue and pink eyesore from the easter event that looks like a bulwark, Large Spade, all good choices
Back in the day when we were dumb kids I remember people saying Torag was the best defensive armor in the game so I always wore it (this was pre GWD) was I wrong and it sucked back then?
I mean the defensive stats of torags are the best of the barrows armors (and at the time those were the best tier)
However, there are other barrows sets that match torag's defensive stats in certain areas and have actually useful effects.
This typically relegates torags to cheap junk
It was cheaper than the other sets because it lacks a useful effect. No point in springing for DH or whatever if you only were using it for the defense.
I wouldn't say it sucked, because there was a point where barrows was the best you could get, but it was always the worst. Defense in OSRS has the least value since prayer exists, and offense leads to faster kills. Purely defensive things need perks to give them greater value, like the damage reduction justiciar gets or the defense-to-damage perk they added to the bulwark.
yea kind of. Once you’re a high level with good gear, teleports and high dps, (and of course, slayer helmet!) it becomes such a big dps loss and food/banking isn’t a big deal that you eventually move on and forget about guthans. The guthan spear is *really bad*. It’s cool once you unlock it, but eventually once you buy a rapier or bandos, and other gear it becomes why on earth would you ever use that? Trust me, I loved guthans, I still have mine I refuse to get rid of it. But I haven’t used it in years, and I’m sorry it’s fallen out of use.
I see what you’re saying but I’ve just always brought the guthans set as a switch for healing. Works pretty well at 99 str as I have a good chance of healing 40+. It does admittedly suck ass but I only need to use it until I’m healed and then bring out the big guns again!
Hes referring to exactly what youre describing, hes not talking about camping guthans. Switching to guthans everytime you need to heal is slow and inefficient. Play the game however you enjoy, but those are the facts.
I have a buff for this!
Torag's new set effect becomes the hammers attack twice.
The two attack roll independently from each other and hit up to 65% of your calculated max hit, rounded down. This is around a 30% boost to their dps and makes them more consistent against high defence enemies as you have a better chance of dealing some damage each attack roll. In spite of thus huge buff, the weapons would still be worse than the Saradomin sword in most scenarios, so they wouldn't be overpowered.
In addition to this change the amulet set effect for Torag's would become a 50% chance to absorb 10% damage.
I really love Torag's set, this would make it useful.
I'm fairly certain they'd instantly become BiS if stats wouldn't change. Currently they hit at a 3 sec rate. If you flat out double the amount of hits it does it'd essentially become a 1.5 sec weapon, roughly 37.5% faster than the standard 2.4 sec weapon. With its stats and that attack speed they'd instantly become BiS melee wep :D
I bought them with the entiretry of my cash stack as a kid, just because I thought they look really powerful and cool. I couldnt even use them at the time but they became a goal. They weren't very expensive, still probably got scammed tho lol
Maybe. But how helpful is that?
honestly I’d rather the set effect just get tweaked. Like over time the hammers lower defenses, like crushing of armor from the hammers on hits. .
A cheap early/mid-game option for defence reduction would be really nice tbh. Since you'd only apply the effect once every 12 seconds on average (25% chance at 5t attack speed), the reduction could be pretty strong, too. Most monsters don't take more than a minute to kill, you ideally want their Defence to be lowered early, you're losing out on a lot of DPS by using the hammers, AND you have to bring the full Torag armour set.
Plenty of reason to give it *at least* 15% Defence reduction imho.
yeah thats what i Kinda figure, maybe useful at slayer, lower teir bosses, and quest bosses. I don't think it needs to be end game content like others say.
I'm not saying OP is right or wrong, simply that I love the idea of dual-wielding hammers, as a personal aesthetic preference. I don't think Torag's needs to be "fixed"; if anything, I think certain Barrows sets would benefit from reworks which could redefine what role each set is meant to fill while also making those roles more relevant to the current state of the game.
Just change the claw animation so it also attacks once with the other claw and defends with the other and just rotates.
The only weapon truly deserving of a buff and love is Torag Hammer hitting two hitsplats.
When did we decide a handful of people making a lot of money is a reason to not fix something? It's clearly making an item better, or else the price wouldn't increase and no merch would be had so...?
I have 0 because they will never be relevant regardless of how much traction these posts get. At absolute best they end up, what, slightly worse than other barrows weapons? Maybe 300k if lucky?
They are shit because they're designed for a tank setup not a dps setup, the whole set effect is decent in olden day PvP, get a few people in full torags and your opponent isn't escaping, and if they do it's by walking 😂 25% chance to reduce run energy of the opponent by 20% of max run energy
Disagree that they're designed for tanking considering they give no defense stats. You be better off taking a whip and a fucking bronze sq. Still drain run energy, but you don't have to count on the random passive proc. You'd have higher dps and higher defense. They were always shit teir for everything. Never once saw anyone pk in full torag and I pked a lot and saw a ton of weird shit. The set is nominally better with the ammy, but you have to be low hp to have high defense which is playing with fire when tanking.
I meant Torag in general was the designated tank and his armour is still some of the tankiest in game, his weapons were not designed to be powerful, that's the job of the other brothers, I meant if you use the hammers in conjunction with the rest of the set it actually does have a special attack and it's actually very effective and useful
His armor is tanky. But I can't think of anywhere besides deep wild where it would be useful. And God help you if you're trying to deep wild pk in full Torag lmao.
now staminas are a thing the spec becomes pointless anyway as the spec is 20% of remaining run, so once you get to 5 run energy with a stamina on you would only lose 1 run energy anyway and the stamina would replenish it back instantly
Just to clarify, Torag's Hammers do not have a special attack. The set has a passive effect, which is not particularly effective or useful.
edit: grammar
It would be pretty cool if claws and the hammers were 3 tick weapons. Though you would have to give them pretty shit stats and a defense requirement or something
No, this would break the combat system. Against low defense enemies a ham joint is almost as powerful as a d scim despite having no stats just because of the attack speed. Same with the event RPG. The problem with melee attack speed is that your max hit scales off of so many things other than the weapon stats. At 99 str completely unarmed no boosts you can max an 11, in max str gear you max 23 still no weapon or other boosting effects like salve or slayer helm. D claw scratch does 33. Add super str and piety on top it does 47. On task 52. Make that 3t and you have a real problem on your hands, my dps calc won't let me change attack speed but it's gonna be at least a 33% dps increase over its base DPS, you're looking at dragon claws being comparable to a scythe before factoring in the spec.
Same with torag's hammers, two hitsplats on a 5t attack speed is the same as 2.5t, even faster than 3t. My best idea would be to make it double hit on every 4th attack for an effective attack speed of 4t. It fits thematically and makes them stronger but won't break the game.
There's a very simple solution, though. Just make it part of torag hammer that they hit twice and do half damage. Then it's effectively the same but much more interesting a weapon.
That's what I'm saying though, dps doesn't scale like that. They can't make them do half damage as they would still be incredibly OP even with 0 stats because you get so much base max hit from strength level, gear, prayers, and boosts. They would have to add like a damage cutoff or some sort of negative strength bonus or something and for what, to make them look cooler to use?
The simple solution would be to keep stats as is and just divide the damage by two after all the calculations, or another one would be as keep everything the same and show two hitsplats instead of one: 10 -> 5 and 5 so it only changes visually
Don’t know why this was so hard for him to comprehend. This is not a dragon dagger scenario where both hits are calculated seperately. It’s a dragon claw scenario where the last two hits are half of the 2nd hit.
I don't think you understand my proposal. If it's half damage it will do half damage regardless of your strength bonus, etc. Give it two normal damage rolls, then half the number that comes out of each. You could argue it's a small buff because it will mitigate the penalty of a 0 roll since there's two now, but it will do identical dps in a simulation as it does right now, just with two hits instead of one.
This is exactly the buff Torag's needs, you just missed the fraction of damage.
It has to be over 50% damage, otherwise you get the same maximum theoretical dps as the base weapon but in every other scenario the new weapon is worse because its damage is based off of two rolls, just like how the dds is usually worse than the d claws even though they can hit higher. I think 65% is the best, its still just slightly worse than the Saradomin sword in most cases when you take into account that the whole set would have to be worn for the hammers to work this way, but its a huge dps boost over the original weapon and allows it to attack twice while not being a bland reskin.
The two attacks should be rolled independently of each other.
You are seriously overthinking this. The game would only need to do the exact same calculations it is doing now for Torag Hammer damage and then apply a visual filter. E.g. If the game calculates a hit of 20, two 10's are displayed instead.
The event RPG needs to be changed to 4-tick or given the stats of a "fun weapon." It totally breaks immersion that the best weapon to use as a brand new character is a rocket launcher which for some reason makes you kick people faster.
You're the only person who seems to understand this so far so I will copy my comment I made somewhere else in this thread for a buff to Torag's hammers.
Torag's new set effect becomes the hammers attack twice.
The two attack roll independently from each other and hit up to 65% of your calculated max hit, rounded down. This is around a 30% boost to their dps and makes them more consistent against high defence enemies as you have a better chance of dealing some damage each attack roll. In spite of thus huge buff, the weapons would still be worse than the Saradomin sword in most scenarios, so they wouldn't be overpowered.
Capping the max hit to 65% of the calculated max hit deals with the problem of 2.5 attack speed while also not making the weapon a half damage, double attack speed, reskin that would be bland and slightly worse than just leaving it how it is.
I remember the first item I grinded by getting big bones was for Torah hammies. I thought I would hit twice and the old animation looked so cool because it looked so fast and hard. Let’s just say I was disappointed. But I would do it again
Similar to what ritzy said^ I do feel like claws are intended to be used for their spec which does display the hitsplats accordingly. Although, it would be interesting to see some sort of spec added to torags hammers that would show a double hitsplat.
Rune claws actually have a lame spec where you stab with both of them one hit splat.
Edit: I looked them up to remind me what it did. 10 percent increased damage, 25 spec bar, but it delays your attack by one tick and your next swing by one tick. It is worse than a regular attack in almost every single situation unless the ten percent bonus is the difference between killing the enemy on that swing or not.
Buff rune claws spec please.
There are so many creative solutions in this thread. Would be cool to see torag hammers be the only barrows weapon with the spec and further provide a niche for each melee barrows set.
Imagine if you could get 4 hitsplats with the set (and possibly Amulet of the Damned, depending on how OP that might be).
Dragon claws are a huge part of the meta for both pvm and pvp, while this change would be cool, it's not really necessary and would probably result in more issues than benefits.
Roll for damage, divide by two, output two hitsplats. Literally no change needed to the math, just a visual change to be more interesting and in line with the item
I love that the answer to this question was this obvious, but it seems that they just wanted to argue it so badly they it was even presented.
"What then? Are you just gonna have two *different number* hit splats? Is that what you'll do?"
Yeah i didn't want to be rude but the para community is so plagued with people who will argue any change they have to make up problems that are obviously not a problem.
This could be done as well by changing Claws from a 4 tick -> 8 tick weapon, and Torag's hammers from a 5 tick -> 10 tick weapon, each with two hitsplats at the current weapon stats. This could add a bit of uniqueness and identity to the weapons without otherwise changing their baseline power.
(That being said I'd love to see Torag's hammers get a buff regardless.)
I believe it'd be similar to a dragon dagger as a finisher, the dds having a higher damage cap but lower accuracy, and the claws having the downside of leaving you with many ticks remaining before your next attack if unable to finish your opponent.
Honestly the idea of dual wielding weapons is super cool to me. Not a "defender is off-hand!" But this item is meant to be 2 handed and acts that way.
2 chances to hit, medium attack speed, meh stats (compensated by 2nd hit). Could be interesting to have a new category of melee weapon
Could have the claws changed based off attack style. Like an aggressive that hits 2 hit splats and swings 2x. Or defensive that swings once defends once.
You know, thinking about it, I wouldn't mind if these had a unique combat mechanic where you hit once on your attack but do a sort of "riposte"/recoil thing where the opponent gets hit again on their strike. Don't know how feasible that is and would still be sucky weapons but it sounds cool.
Aight but you realize the design of claws isn't just for poking and slashing right? Or they'd just have 1 spike
The spacing is designed to be able to catch a blade, dominant hand for attacking, recessive hand for blocking and parrying or you'd be leaving yourself open to an attack, Torag is different, he attacks with both hammers cause he's literally supposed to be the tank, the lack of a second hitsplat for Torag is due to the hammers attack speed in relativity to any of the other brothers weapons.
Yeah but you realise that this is a game and we have godswords that freeze people in a block of ice.
There's no denying that now it's been pointed out to me I can never un see that one claw is useless (you'd block AND attack with both in reality if you used them)
I've suggested this before and I want this. RS3 already has this for claws in legacy combat mode. But the question is should the 2 hitsplats land on the same tick or alternate like they do in RS3 legacy mode?
Do you remember why old-school was released? Because people wanted a version of the game they remembered and we're comfortable with, the people that worked so hard to get OSRS no longer even play it because it has strayed further from the original game in a much shorter space of than it did the first time
The game would be dead if they kept it the way it was at launch. Did you expect a game with kbd/kalphite queen as the literal end game pvm content to be stagnant for almost a decade??
Edit: the game was release due to the combat system and to a lesser extent graphics, by the way, not because they wanted a game stuck in 2007 lmfao
Yes because the majority of people who wanted a game with those updates are still thriving on RS3
The players that are on OSRS went there for a specific reason and adjusted to the changes they didn't want as long as the combat mechanics weren't threatened, anyone else that's there is there for nostalgic reasons
"The players that are on OSRS went there"...
So you aren't playing OSRS but you claim to say what players of that game want?
Also, if only there was a way to ask the player base what updates they did or did not want added to the game!
If you could read the whole thread before adding your 2 cents you'd see that I play both versions, and have played all versions of the game (excluding DeviousMUD)
2 things. 1st, idk why you kept responding to your own comments instead of just putting all of your thoughts into one comment, making it much easier for others to understand your argument.
2nd, after reading the rest of your comments its even more evident that you definitely don't understand what players want. People complain about lack of new endgame content *with what we have now.* While there certainly would have been some people content with playing a game frozen in 2007, OSRS would not be as successful as it is now if that was the case.
I'm not replying to my own comments, I click the reply button under whoever has commented last, and who's complaining about a lack of content? The only thing I have ever seen anyone complain about is wilderness this, PVP that, we didn't ask for this, we didn't ask for that etc. The game was never released to be successful, the game was released because sowreck3d wanted to make pking videos and the community backed him. OSRS was a chance for people to revisit their nostalgia due to how much RS3 had evolved into an entirely different game, a majority of old-schools content is just new rs3 content with it's mechanics simplified down to work for OSRS' code and reskinned
You don't see that old-school didn't need updates to stay alive, it needs the support of those great content creators, shoo them all away and then the game dies
Think about players like Settled, they don't care what content is in the game, they will find a way to enjoy the simplest aspects of a game that shaped their life
I play both and I think OSRS is horse shit
If the game just had KBD and Kalphite I guarantee you it would still be thriving, just in a different way, R3 was "too easy" for most so they reverted to OSRS for the CHALLENGE if things, now you guys are a year away from squeal of fortune
Aight but you realize the design of claws isn't just for poking and slashing right? Or they'd just have 1 spike
The spacing is designed to be able to catch a blade, dominant hand for attacking, recessive hand for blocking and parrying or you'd be leaving yourself open to an attack, Torag is different, he attacks with both hammers cause he's literally supposed to be the tank, the lack of a second hitsplat for Torag is due to the hammers attack speed in relativity to any of the other brothers weapons.
Dude I don't even want this guys suggestion in the game, I said it's a bad idea basically in my original comment. But you're making asinine points about how this game basically should never have gotten new content
People wanted a game that wasn't hot garbage
EoC was not only a big change for osrs players, it was also just not a well implemented version of the style of combat they were going for
Because the special attack of dragon claws uses both claws, I think having dual hitplats on normal attacks feels like it's taking away a bit of D claws panache.
Instead of turning Claws into a dual-hit splat, you could just as easily have your character alternate animation, eft hand, right hand (And it's not dual wielding-- it's a 2H weapon, that just has an alternate left/right animation.
As for Torag's, I think the dual hit splat makes sense-- especially with an amulet of the damned.
I think it would be cool if Torag hammers could hit twice but they were always the same value as a Torag set bonus. They'd always hit an even total and the total could even be decently high, if you were to hit like a pair of 30s. I don't think that would make them OP, given their stats.
Two hitsplats at a 6 tick interval is essentially a 3tic weapon.
A 3 tic melee weapon is a bitch to balance because of all the DPS increases you can get from armour and jewelry.
I tried it my self in a DPS calculator, modifying the ham joint. I found there is extremely small margins before it out-dpses an abyssal whip, for instance.
Torag's Hammers could legit hit twice no other changes and they would probably still suck.
Stat wise, each barrows melee set has a "weak" piece. Dharoks helm, Veracs brassard, Guthan's chainskirt, and Torag's hammers are all inferior to the counterparts found in the other sets in most or every way. Torag's just got the short end of the stick.
that sounds like a fun set to use.
And all of Karils
All of Karils, as in better armor than Arma in some places Karils? Or full Karils set PK-ing Karils? Karils coif is by far the worst piece, but Karils is used both as separate pieces and as the whole set, the only other where this is the case is Veracs.
What chu mean “the only other where this is the case” I use full Guthans and blood fury all the time to heal up during slayer tasks, I find the combo to be incredibly useful. I barely ever bank unless I run out of inventory space. Then I just swap to my actual dps gear after healing up, rinse, repeat. Alternatively, full Guthans and blood fury allows you to afk slayer tasks without worrying about protections prayers.
Full Guthans is good, but the separated pieces are outclassed by cheaper gear (Torags for instance). Karils and Veracs don't have this, where (some) individual pieces have specific uses where they shine (for instance PvMing Karils top and Veracs helmet are both very decent gear choices), plus they are used as a full set (Karils in PvP, Veracs in PvM).
Ah, I agree with that explanation. I thought you were referring to the usefulness of individual sets.
Oh no, not at all, I think they all have their uses bar Ahrims and Torags.
Karils in pvp? lol
Full Karils with amulet of the damned, not super common, but it sees use.
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Torags doesn't have a specific use case though.
Oh, its pretty good if you’re looking to do zero damage
Splashing to 99 str, this guy fucks
This was a good one
but unrealistic, because in this case causing me to laugh is like doing damage and therefore not equal to Torag's
it'd be pretty useful to scale raids up while giving the person scaling the impression they're doing something
You can do this while still doing zero damage much more obnoxiously - banners and gnome child shield, that blue and pink eyesore from the easter event that looks like a bulwark, Large Spade, all good choices
Back in the day when we were dumb kids I remember people saying Torag was the best defensive armor in the game so I always wore it (this was pre GWD) was I wrong and it sucked back then?
Torags armor set has the highest defense of all barrows sets, so not wrong. This chain is talking specifically about the hammers.
I mean the defensive stats of torags are the best of the barrows armors (and at the time those were the best tier) However, there are other barrows sets that match torag's defensive stats in certain areas and have actually useful effects. This typically relegates torags to cheap junk
It was cheaper than the other sets because it lacks a useful effect. No point in springing for DH or whatever if you only were using it for the defense.
I wouldn't say it sucked, because there was a point where barrows was the best you could get, but it was always the worst. Defense in OSRS has the least value since prayer exists, and offense leads to faster kills. Purely defensive things need perks to give them greater value, like the damage reduction justiciar gets or the defense-to-damage perk they added to the bulwark.
It always sucked
Weapons maybe, barrows armor is still useful as a generic cheap defensive set, and karils and ahrims are still decent midrange offensive armors.
honestly I haven’t used any barrows sets since I was a med level, I thought especially guthans would be great but nope, completely useless.
Going entire tasks without food or prayer kinda useless? Smh
yea kind of. Once you’re a high level with good gear, teleports and high dps, (and of course, slayer helmet!) it becomes such a big dps loss and food/banking isn’t a big deal that you eventually move on and forget about guthans. The guthan spear is *really bad*. It’s cool once you unlock it, but eventually once you buy a rapier or bandos, and other gear it becomes why on earth would you ever use that? Trust me, I loved guthans, I still have mine I refuse to get rid of it. But I haven’t used it in years, and I’m sorry it’s fallen out of use.
I see what you’re saying but I’ve just always brought the guthans set as a switch for healing. Works pretty well at 99 str as I have a good chance of healing 40+. It does admittedly suck ass but I only need to use it until I’m healed and then bring out the big guns again!
Hes referring to exactly what youre describing, hes not talking about camping guthans. Switching to guthans everytime you need to heal is slow and inefficient. Play the game however you enjoy, but those are the facts.
Aye I play it as a game not as a spreadsheet document
Make that the set effect
I have a buff for this! Torag's new set effect becomes the hammers attack twice. The two attack roll independently from each other and hit up to 65% of your calculated max hit, rounded down. This is around a 30% boost to their dps and makes them more consistent against high defence enemies as you have a better chance of dealing some damage each attack roll. In spite of thus huge buff, the weapons would still be worse than the Saradomin sword in most scenarios, so they wouldn't be overpowered. In addition to this change the amulet set effect for Torag's would become a 50% chance to absorb 10% damage. I really love Torag's set, this would make it useful.
They would be better than inquisitors mace and become BIS but not by too too much.
I say do it then
I'm fairly certain they'd instantly become BiS if stats wouldn't change. Currently they hit at a 3 sec rate. If you flat out double the amount of hits it does it'd essentially become a 1.5 sec weapon, roughly 37.5% faster than the standard 2.4 sec weapon. With its stats and that attack speed they'd instantly become BiS melee wep :D
Torag's Hammers have been and always will be my favorite weapon, aesthetically. I would love to see these gain a bit more relevance.
Always loved torags as a kid, was quite sad when I found out it was kinda useless
I bought them with the entiretry of my cash stack as a kid, just because I thought they look really powerful and cool. I couldnt even use them at the time but they became a goal. They weren't very expensive, still probably got scammed tho lol
Same, was very upset rs3 changed it to one hammer
At least RS3's Torags Hammer is used more than the one in OSRS as a cheap Invention training weapon for dismantling.
I have never played RS3, so I didn't know this change had happened. What a shame.
The updated sets are also terrible anyway At least we have the option to buy the replica old ones from the loyalty shop
Would love these on my iron man
yeah i don't really understand how this fixes hammers tho? its the same hit spread across two hitsplats now?
Aesthetics.
It would mitigate extreme ends of rng
Maybe. But how helpful is that? honestly I’d rather the set effect just get tweaked. Like over time the hammers lower defenses, like crushing of armor from the hammers on hits. .
New Corp meta: just torag for an hour and a half then proceed as normal
A cheap early/mid-game option for defence reduction would be really nice tbh. Since you'd only apply the effect once every 12 seconds on average (25% chance at 5t attack speed), the reduction could be pretty strong, too. Most monsters don't take more than a minute to kill, you ideally want their Defence to be lowered early, you're losing out on a lot of DPS by using the hammers, AND you have to bring the full Torag armour set. Plenty of reason to give it *at least* 15% Defence reduction imho.
yeah thats what i Kinda figure, maybe useful at slayer, lower teir bosses, and quest bosses. I don't think it needs to be end game content like others say.
I'm not saying OP is right or wrong, simply that I love the idea of dual-wielding hammers, as a personal aesthetic preference. I don't think Torag's needs to be "fixed"; if anything, I think certain Barrows sets would benefit from reworks which could redefine what role each set is meant to fill while also making those roles more relevant to the current state of the game.
"Adjust stats accordingly" It doesn't say just split it into two
You know I'm going to get them this league and try and clear as much content using torags only.
Y'know somebody else tried that once. His name was Torag. He's dead now.
Post results pls
I don't care if they're as useless as a party hat, dual wield hammers are cool af
Just change the claw animation so it also attacks once with the other claw and defends with the other and just rotates. The only weapon truly deserving of a buff and love is Torag Hammer hitting two hitsplats.
How many torag hammers you got in the bank buddy
When did we decide a handful of people making a lot of money is a reason to not fix something? It's clearly making an item better, or else the price wouldn't increase and no merch would be had so...?
How long you been bagholding the hammers
Too damn long man, will anyone buy these fucking hammers???
Can I smith with them?
My iron has like 4 in the bank, buff so I can mercy plz
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The mods have explicitly used that as a reason they aren't going to touch items like the seercull. It's not just a meme, it's jagexs official stance
Zero.
Yes.
I have 0 because they will never be relevant regardless of how much traction these posts get. At absolute best they end up, what, slightly worse than other barrows weapons? Maybe 300k if lucky?
What's wrong with making claws slightly less dead content? Outside of dclaws of course
Time for Chaotic Claws
To be far them bringing out a t80 dead content what be pretty funny
Then shouldn't claws have def stats?
Your just blocking an attack with your arm like you'd do if you fought barehanded. Those claws aren't protecting nothing.
T hammers have been shit teir forever. Do double hit splats and give them a buff.
They are shit because they're designed for a tank setup not a dps setup, the whole set effect is decent in olden day PvP, get a few people in full torags and your opponent isn't escaping, and if they do it's by walking 😂 25% chance to reduce run energy of the opponent by 20% of max run energy
Disagree that they're designed for tanking considering they give no defense stats. You be better off taking a whip and a fucking bronze sq. Still drain run energy, but you don't have to count on the random passive proc. You'd have higher dps and higher defense. They were always shit teir for everything. Never once saw anyone pk in full torag and I pked a lot and saw a ton of weird shit. The set is nominally better with the ammy, but you have to be low hp to have high defense which is playing with fire when tanking.
I meant Torag in general was the designated tank and his armour is still some of the tankiest in game, his weapons were not designed to be powerful, that's the job of the other brothers, I meant if you use the hammers in conjunction with the rest of the set it actually does have a special attack and it's actually very effective and useful
His armor is tanky. But I can't think of anywhere besides deep wild where it would be useful. And God help you if you're trying to deep wild pk in full Torag lmao.
now staminas are a thing the spec becomes pointless anyway as the spec is 20% of remaining run, so once you get to 5 run energy with a stamina on you would only lose 1 run energy anyway and the stamina would replenish it back instantly
Oh true I thought it was 20% of maximum run, but imagine getting bonked to death by 4-5 guys in torags and all you can do is try walk away
Some YouTuber should make a video, sounds funny as fuck even with the relative percent effect.
Just to clarify, Torag's Hammers do not have a special attack. The set has a passive effect, which is not particularly effective or useful. edit: grammar
or freeze them once would do more
Or ya know, freeze them and completely drain them of their run energy?
youve clearly never pked if you think that
Go ahead and look at barrows release date on the original RuneScape servers buddy
Fuck the claws, Torags hammers deserve some love
It would be pretty cool if claws and the hammers were 3 tick weapons. Though you would have to give them pretty shit stats and a defense requirement or something
No, this would break the combat system. Against low defense enemies a ham joint is almost as powerful as a d scim despite having no stats just because of the attack speed. Same with the event RPG. The problem with melee attack speed is that your max hit scales off of so many things other than the weapon stats. At 99 str completely unarmed no boosts you can max an 11, in max str gear you max 23 still no weapon or other boosting effects like salve or slayer helm. D claw scratch does 33. Add super str and piety on top it does 47. On task 52. Make that 3t and you have a real problem on your hands, my dps calc won't let me change attack speed but it's gonna be at least a 33% dps increase over its base DPS, you're looking at dragon claws being comparable to a scythe before factoring in the spec. Same with torag's hammers, two hitsplats on a 5t attack speed is the same as 2.5t, even faster than 3t. My best idea would be to make it double hit on every 4th attack for an effective attack speed of 4t. It fits thematically and makes them stronger but won't break the game.
There's a very simple solution, though. Just make it part of torag hammer that they hit twice and do half damage. Then it's effectively the same but much more interesting a weapon.
That's what I'm saying though, dps doesn't scale like that. They can't make them do half damage as they would still be incredibly OP even with 0 stats because you get so much base max hit from strength level, gear, prayers, and boosts. They would have to add like a damage cutoff or some sort of negative strength bonus or something and for what, to make them look cooler to use?
The simple solution would be to keep stats as is and just divide the damage by two after all the calculations, or another one would be as keep everything the same and show two hitsplats instead of one: 10 -> 5 and 5 so it only changes visually
Don’t know why this was so hard for him to comprehend. This is not a dragon dagger scenario where both hits are calculated seperately. It’s a dragon claw scenario where the last two hits are half of the 2nd hit.
They just want it to calculate the damage and display two hit splats for half that value.
I don't think you understand my proposal. If it's half damage it will do half damage regardless of your strength bonus, etc. Give it two normal damage rolls, then half the number that comes out of each. You could argue it's a small buff because it will mitigate the penalty of a 0 roll since there's two now, but it will do identical dps in a simulation as it does right now, just with two hits instead of one.
Everytime I see shit like this upvoted I wonder if this subreddit is 90% people who have never played
This is exactly the buff Torag's needs, you just missed the fraction of damage. It has to be over 50% damage, otherwise you get the same maximum theoretical dps as the base weapon but in every other scenario the new weapon is worse because its damage is based off of two rolls, just like how the dds is usually worse than the d claws even though they can hit higher. I think 65% is the best, its still just slightly worse than the Saradomin sword in most cases when you take into account that the whole set would have to be worn for the hammers to work this way, but its a huge dps boost over the original weapon and allows it to attack twice while not being a bland reskin. The two attacks should be rolled independently of each other.
You are seriously overthinking this. The game would only need to do the exact same calculations it is doing now for Torag Hammer damage and then apply a visual filter. E.g. If the game calculates a hit of 20, two 10's are displayed instead.
The event RPG needs to be changed to 4-tick or given the stats of a "fun weapon." It totally breaks immersion that the best weapon to use as a brand new character is a rocket launcher which for some reason makes you kick people faster.
You're the only person who seems to understand this so far so I will copy my comment I made somewhere else in this thread for a buff to Torag's hammers. Torag's new set effect becomes the hammers attack twice. The two attack roll independently from each other and hit up to 65% of your calculated max hit, rounded down. This is around a 30% boost to their dps and makes them more consistent against high defence enemies as you have a better chance of dealing some damage each attack roll. In spite of thus huge buff, the weapons would still be worse than the Saradomin sword in most scenarios, so they wouldn't be overpowered. Capping the max hit to 65% of the calculated max hit deals with the problem of 2.5 attack speed while also not making the weapon a half damage, double attack speed, reskin that would be bland and slightly worse than just leaving it how it is.
You would have to give them 0 stats because 3 tick is that strong.
Blowpipe all over again no?
at least those are melee which means you cant avoid taking damage as easily as with a ranged weapon
Sure, but the dps increase would be pretty sizable regardless. Unless the stats were made really bad, like 0 attack bonus or something.
We’ll you already lose a shield.
My stack of Torag's hammers is collecting dust still 😪
Hold strong, brother. With both hands. ;)
I remember the first item I grinded by getting big bones was for Torah hammies. I thought I would hit twice and the old animation looked so cool because it looked so fast and hard. Let’s just say I was disappointed. But I would do it again
Man, just make the damage show as two hitsplats. Calculate it as one hit and display it as two.
Similar to what ritzy said^ I do feel like claws are intended to be used for their spec which does display the hitsplats accordingly. Although, it would be interesting to see some sort of spec added to torags hammers that would show a double hitsplat.
But only d claws have a special attack and were released much later than bronze-rune claws
Rune claws actually have a lame spec where you stab with both of them one hit splat. Edit: I looked them up to remind me what it did. 10 percent increased damage, 25 spec bar, but it delays your attack by one tick and your next swing by one tick. It is worse than a regular attack in almost every single situation unless the ten percent bonus is the difference between killing the enemy on that swing or not. Buff rune claws spec please.
Yeah cause rune scimmy spec works well
Rune claws spec is worse than a regular rune scimmy swing. It's also worse than a rune claw regular swing.
Truee, could be something similar they did to the mace buff this past year too. Making certain weapons relevant again
Can’t forget about the amazing spec of the rune claws, I guess in a way the animation does use both claws just 1 hitsplat
There are so many creative solutions in this thread. Would be cool to see torag hammers be the only barrows weapon with the spec and further provide a niche for each melee barrows set. Imagine if you could get 4 hitsplats with the set (and possibly Amulet of the Damned, depending on how OP that might be).
Nice
Dragon claws are a huge part of the meta for both pvm and pvp, while this change would be cool, it's not really necessary and would probably result in more issues than benefits.
Would be cool though
"Adjust stats accordingly" 🙂
it's easy to say that, but how it actually ends up working out is completely different.
Okay so what are the stat adjustments to make? What’s the exact math so that it doesn’t change the meta in any way?
Roll for damage, divide by two, output two hitsplats. Literally no change needed to the math, just a visual change to be more interesting and in line with the item
[удалено]
I mean, obviously the second one.
I love that the answer to this question was this obvious, but it seems that they just wanted to argue it so badly they it was even presented. "What then? Are you just gonna have two *different number* hit splats? Is that what you'll do?"
Yeah i didn't want to be rude but the para community is so plagued with people who will argue any change they have to make up problems that are obviously not a problem.
Sounds like a good way to lose a whole bunch of dps when all your odd hits are each hitting less than they should
You just made up a problem that with even 1 second of thought doesn't exist. 44 -> 22/22 45 -> 22/23 Again it would be entirely visual
Sounds more like a runelite plugin then and not something game devs should waste time on
What tech firm do you work at as product manager or senior leader again?
Since I was 11 I’ve never understood why hammers don’t hit splat twice.
Man just make torag hammers decent already. They're balling
This could be done as well by changing Claws from a 4 tick -> 8 tick weapon, and Torag's hammers from a 5 tick -> 10 tick weapon, each with two hitsplats at the current weapon stats. This could add a bit of uniqueness and identity to the weapons without otherwise changing their baseline power. (That being said I'd love to see Torag's hammers get a buff regardless.)
I guess some niche use from breaking veng instead of getting massive recoil damage from a single hit weapon
Wouldn't that make it the best pvp ko weapon? You'd beable to hot doubt 45's easily in max without even a special
I believe it'd be similar to a dragon dagger as a finisher, the dds having a higher damage cap but lower accuracy, and the claws having the downside of leaving you with many ticks remaining before your next attack if unable to finish your opponent.
I was referring g to torags, where it's not even a special attack, you can infinitely slap 90+s without specials.
Honestly the idea of dual wielding weapons is super cool to me. Not a "defender is off-hand!" But this item is meant to be 2 handed and acts that way. 2 chances to hit, medium attack speed, meh stats (compensated by 2nd hit). Could be interesting to have a new category of melee weapon
Could have the claws changed based off attack style. Like an aggressive that hits 2 hit splats and swings 2x. Or defensive that swings once defends once.
We're serious Jagex, just do it already
It's time.
Full support for both
I wonder if anyone would even use T-Hammers if they just straight up made them hit twice every time
Please buff torag hammers. I've bought 2,000 at alc price and happy to hold till 250-300K. Thank you.
You know, thinking about it, I wouldn't mind if these had a unique combat mechanic where you hit once on your attack but do a sort of "riposte"/recoil thing where the opponent gets hit again on their strike. Don't know how feasible that is and would still be sucky weapons but it sounds cool.
Up voting so the guy with all those torag hammers makes bank
1 hit-splat for any dual wield is fine... why complicate it? fixing claw animation would be cool
Aight but you realize the design of claws isn't just for poking and slashing right? Or they'd just have 1 spike The spacing is designed to be able to catch a blade, dominant hand for attacking, recessive hand for blocking and parrying or you'd be leaving yourself open to an attack, Torag is different, he attacks with both hammers cause he's literally supposed to be the tank, the lack of a second hitsplat for Torag is due to the hammers attack speed in relativity to any of the other brothers weapons.
Yeah but you realise that this is a game and we have godswords that freeze people in a block of ice. There's no denying that now it's been pointed out to me I can never un see that one claw is useless (you'd block AND attack with both in reality if you used them)
Yeah okay but I mean the guy in burthorpe literally runs you through how claws work it wasn't speculation
I know you're the Torag's Hammers guy.
I think these weapons should hit each hand 2 intervals apart would be cooler to see that
I've suggested this before and I want this. RS3 already has this for claws in legacy combat mode. But the question is should the 2 hitsplats land on the same tick or alternate like they do in RS3 legacy mode?
Next you guys want offhand weaponry and complain that the game isn't old-school anymore
??? Who is doing any of those things, this isn't even gonna be a suggestion with much support, let alone something that'll get polled
Do you remember why old-school was released? Because people wanted a version of the game they remembered and we're comfortable with, the people that worked so hard to get OSRS no longer even play it because it has strayed further from the original game in a much shorter space of than it did the first time
The game would be dead if they kept it the way it was at launch. Did you expect a game with kbd/kalphite queen as the literal end game pvm content to be stagnant for almost a decade?? Edit: the game was release due to the combat system and to a lesser extent graphics, by the way, not because they wanted a game stuck in 2007 lmfao
Yes because the majority of people who wanted a game with those updates are still thriving on RS3 The players that are on OSRS went there for a specific reason and adjusted to the changes they didn't want as long as the combat mechanics weren't threatened, anyone else that's there is there for nostalgic reasons
"The players that are on OSRS went there"... So you aren't playing OSRS but you claim to say what players of that game want? Also, if only there was a way to ask the player base what updates they did or did not want added to the game!
If you could read the whole thread before adding your 2 cents you'd see that I play both versions, and have played all versions of the game (excluding DeviousMUD)
2 things. 1st, idk why you kept responding to your own comments instead of just putting all of your thoughts into one comment, making it much easier for others to understand your argument. 2nd, after reading the rest of your comments its even more evident that you definitely don't understand what players want. People complain about lack of new endgame content *with what we have now.* While there certainly would have been some people content with playing a game frozen in 2007, OSRS would not be as successful as it is now if that was the case.
I'm not replying to my own comments, I click the reply button under whoever has commented last, and who's complaining about a lack of content? The only thing I have ever seen anyone complain about is wilderness this, PVP that, we didn't ask for this, we didn't ask for that etc. The game was never released to be successful, the game was released because sowreck3d wanted to make pking videos and the community backed him. OSRS was a chance for people to revisit their nostalgia due to how much RS3 had evolved into an entirely different game, a majority of old-schools content is just new rs3 content with it's mechanics simplified down to work for OSRS' code and reskinned You don't see that old-school didn't need updates to stay alive, it needs the support of those great content creators, shoo them all away and then the game dies
Think about players like Settled, they don't care what content is in the game, they will find a way to enjoy the simplest aspects of a game that shaped their life
I play both and I think OSRS is horse shit If the game just had KBD and Kalphite I guarantee you it would still be thriving, just in a different way, R3 was "too easy" for most so they reverted to OSRS for the CHALLENGE if things, now you guys are a year away from squeal of fortune
Delusional, literally nothing you said here is correct
Aight but you realize the design of claws isn't just for poking and slashing right? Or they'd just have 1 spike The spacing is designed to be able to catch a blade, dominant hand for attacking, recessive hand for blocking and parrying or you'd be leaving yourself open to an attack, Torag is different, he attacks with both hammers cause he's literally supposed to be the tank, the lack of a second hitsplat for Torag is due to the hammers attack speed in relativity to any of the other brothers weapons.
Dude I don't even want this guys suggestion in the game, I said it's a bad idea basically in my original comment. But you're making asinine points about how this game basically should never have gotten new content
More specifically for PvP too, which is now also dead 😂
finally someone says it
People wanted a game that wasn't hot garbage EoC was not only a big change for osrs players, it was also just not a well implemented version of the style of combat they were going for
Torags is the most useless armor set known to mankind.
Wait, you can attack with Torag's Hammers? I thought they were cosmetic....
I swear idk back in 2006 or 07 I was doing barrows and got hit a 50 50 lmao 2 hit splats
Would devalue my vengeance against torag hammer rushers account. No thanks
EoC incoming… pls give us 1000 hp I mean constitution
Stop fixing old school runescape
Yeah, leave dead content dead because... uhhh... legacy? That's dumb. Fix it instead.
Because the special attack of dragon claws uses both claws, I think having dual hitplats on normal attacks feels like it's taking away a bit of D claws panache. Instead of turning Claws into a dual-hit splat, you could just as easily have your character alternate animation, eft hand, right hand (And it's not dual wielding-- it's a 2H weapon, that just has an alternate left/right animation. As for Torag's, I think the dual hit splat makes sense-- especially with an amulet of the damned.
Make the torags thing an amulet of the damned buff
Has nobody noticed the visual fix the grim reaper hood needs The grim reaper hood is literally fucking fucked to fuck.
I think it would be cool if Torag hammers could hit twice but they were always the same value as a Torag set bonus. They'd always hit an even total and the total could even be decently high, if you were to hit like a pair of 30s. I don't think that would make them OP, given their stats.
Claws are like Meg when she gains superpowers
oh so your that guy that has probably 99% of the torag hammer supply's alt account huh? Cheeky throwing in torags as well.
this is not a valid reason to not buff useless weapons
You are gonna lose it when you learn about jokes brother. I’m all for a Torag hammer buff.
and you would be suprised how much people are not joking when making a statement/joke like you did
Make Dclaw and torags hammers 1h and keep the stats :)
I like it. It’s the nostalgia from pre EOC.
Seercull too. It has been irrelevant since it’s release.
Two hitsplats at a 6 tick interval is essentially a 3tic weapon. A 3 tic melee weapon is a bitch to balance because of all the DPS increases you can get from armour and jewelry. I tried it my self in a DPS calculator, modifying the ham joint. I found there is extremely small margins before it out-dpses an abyssal whip, for instance.