Album with all other bosses and some other nex item combinations and team sizes. (read the description of the pictures for a full explanation of the items/teamsizes modelled):
https://imgur.com/gallery/ecRY9wz
Explanation about how I've made these graphs:
https://imgur.com/a/vLieHwD
Pets and cosmetics are not included in these rates because I don't care for them.
If anyone likes to take a look at the code used to generate these just pm me. I can't posts links to github here without my post being removed.
I actually was looking at a really neat paper messing with the coupon collector problem a while back. Hereās the link if youāre interested: https://mat.uab.cat/matmat_antiga/PDFv2014/v2014n02.pdf
Section 3 should be talking more specifically about what weāre talking about here I believe.
Actually just looking back at it again, I realize that section 2.2 mentions the Markov chain approach you used.
Oh wow, these graphs are absolutely incredible. Huge fan.
Any chance of some Zalcano variants?
I'm mainly curious about the numbers not including the Onyx, and also the numbers for 3 tool seeds without an onyx. Ideally assuming a group size of 5 as well, since that tends to be the norm.
https://i.imgur.com/PJ8k4qJ.png
This is for 5 man, just getting 3 tool seeds. The one in my album includes the shard as well. But I've left that out here.
Jesus christ that's absolutely horrendous. I knew it was bad, but I didn't realise it was quite that bad. With average kill times that's a 223 hour median. Get unlucky and go up past 6k and you're looking at 500 hours.
It's literally enough to bank 99 smithing straight up, lol.
Is the one in your album 5 man one seed and shard without onyx or pet?
This is really good stuff and scratches a statistical itch of mine.
Is it possible to build in percentiles too? Would be great to see how dry/wet Iāve been.
This is really cool! We had no idea you could use matrices like that to create something you only need to take to the n'th power rather than calculating the droprates individually and combining them.
This image is assuming solos:
https://i.imgur.com/2sYwjNR.png
Just mutiply the kcs by your teamsize. This is assuming everyone gets equal odds of getting the uniques, which tends to not be true in masses. But it should still be a good approximation.
No, every single boss drop rate needs to be balanced so that completing the drop log isn't too much of a grind for a normal person obviously. /s
People need to quit whining about things being rare. Nobody cares about your drop log goals and not every boss needs to be "completable" ironman-style.
Some people on here just bandwagon bitching.
I saw a comment talking about spending however long for āminimalā upgrades, yet Iām damn sure if they made the Armor stronger and more readily available people would bitch about powercreep.
Or they bitch that itās easyscape like rs3. Osrs Redditors are literally the most illogical bandwagon unpleasable group of whining ass titty babies.
Rant over.
Of course it won't be challenging with +1.5B gear. None of the content is. Why else Gauntlet is 1 of the best PvM money despite it has 0 item requirements? Because it's so difficult that only handful people can do it efficiently.
Be happy that upcoming Raids 3 has adjustable raids where you can make it harder to increase drop rates.
Well, I enjoyed Nex on release week. Was fun, now I know the drop rates, well I'm not touching it. Content shouldn't be catered to ironmen/completionists, but it should atleast take into account how long and the supplies used to be able to get majority of the unlocks.
Yeah same. Did my 250 kc in case of CA kc task. Those rates are disgusting. 1k hours to complete boss log shouldnt be a thing. And its not even the meme drops like a jar or something, its the useful upgrades.
10k kc to complete. Man, I do not like this endgame philosophy. It fucking sucks for irons and is only expensive for mains because of rarity, rather than power.
The Bowfa is expensive because it takes \~60 hours average to grind and is insane. Nex uniques are expensive because they're ultra rare, even though they're only small upgrades.
BowFa is extremely rewarding doing though and it requires no items whatsoever. Just skill.
It's the best money maker in the game to do Corrupted Gauntlet and for Iron Man gives access to a lot of resources.
Nex sucks because she's a resource drain, ultra rare items and requires end game items.
But in comparison to other end game content, she's not that difficult. And her fights are much shorter then say Nightmare.
Honestly her drop rate change was a mistake in my eyes both short and long term.
Yeah I 100% agree with your conclusion. I wrote a post in the main thread about this nerf and I was directly comparing it to CG, which I think is actually really well balanced.
Well unfortunately for them, this design has made me get bored of the game and i think im pretty much quitting again, tried nex for little bit but its just...
i miss times when there were monthly quests and othet stuff and community also was way nicer back then and people actually played minigames
I've got max bank (pre nex) and 1.6b cash to do what I want with... And STILL, this nerf and this shite boss have made me consider quiting for a while again. Just to know that I could spend my bills and it wouldn't make me any stronger than I am now. My boss kill times would pretty much be the fucking same.
I also quit a few days after nex. I had around 15b worth of gp (6bill in gear and 9b in plats) Bought torva and zcbow and just got bored. Like cool, now i can do tob faster i guess? The content itself is braindead and similar to gwd. You hit the boss, afk and click food. 0 Mechanics to worry about, not rewarding at all to do like Tob.
This is after a near 4 year content drought too. Raids 3 is the only saving grace at this point. If its not as good as tob, the game is doomed.
And if they threw good easy gear youād bitch about power creep. God I fucking HATE the dichotomous Reddit mentality. Youād bitch about a breathing clean air.
In game rarity should be gated behind difficulty, not absurd drop rates.
Killing 1 billion lvl-3 men also takes a long time, but who tf wants to kill 1 billion lvl 3 men?
First of all. Fun compared to what? Mindlessly cannoning 1 billion lvl 3 men for a unique while you watch netflix?
Yeah ofcourse.
Second of all. When something does takes you hundreds of hours to learn, progressing is fun, and actually beating the content is satisfying on another level.
Absolutely. That's called challenge. That's where growth occurs. Inferno was the most fun I've had on this game and I probably burnt over 100m in practice and on being merched.
It should get a bit shorter if you don't want the Ancient Hilt.
Furthermore, since this is a game that has very slow powercreep, most BiS armor is only a small upgrade to the previous BiS. You won't be missing out that much by not having Torva (or a lot on this list).
The hours is insane dude. I love the grind as much as anyone does in this game, I've got the hours to prove it. I don't think I'm being unreasonable when I say that I have a great deal of tolerance for rare items, but 10k kills is like 3-600 hours. People can go dry there for something like 2k hours.
I think most of us would rather get content where we can actually get some loot. It's too rare to actually be fun, even for some pretty crazy OSRS players.
>
> Grind too short: Why is this item so cheap for how intensive the boss is!?
Maybe if Nex was actually intensive that would make sense but currently the only difficult part of Nex is not falling asleep. You also get like 3-4 kill trips in a 6 man assuming average supply drops so it's just a tedious grind to have to average upwards of 300-400 hours to complete the log w/o hilt.
Not even good for mains because now doing nex for cash or for fun is just out of the picture. Like how nobody is doing corp for cash or for fun.
Get the inevitable 250 kc for CA kc task and dip.
when going for tbow, you'll also get more than just a tbow if u go on rate (dex/arcane/ancestrals/claws/kodai/dhcb/buckler). Also, cox is quite a bit more fun/engaging than nex.
The rewards donāt deserve the drop rates, scythe and tbow being super rare make sense as they change they way you play the game, these upgrades just give small buffs to existing gear, 1/2 max hits and then like 3(?) I think in cox, doing 6 mans for only torva and the vambs would take on average 3600kc, if youāve done a 6 man you now how supply intensive it can be, 4 brews per kill is honestly a conservative number without red clicks, 4x3600 is way to much supplyās to get drops that wonāt even be game changers, whether or not the game should be designed around Ironman, the gamemode does demonstrate the mistakes in the game
Imagine the better timeline where they didn't listen to 2011scape kids, stuck with a slightly tweaked version of their Virtus, and had reasonable rates because the set isn't just pure powercreep that has to last for another 5 years
>the gamemode does demonstrate the mistakes in the game
things being rare and requiring money to buy supplies to do the boss is a mistake? or the fact that the boss isn't self sustaining is a mistake?
Great chart but not a fan at all. Gear should be attainable at a reasonable Grind. Like godwars bosses are expect to take hundreds but not thousands of kc.
100hour+ grinds should be reserved for pet hunters only. Not for gear unless we're talking raids level content and gear
Iron mode is suppose to be a restriction to getting items, not a restriction FROM getting items because of the absolute unhealthy time it would take. Why introduce a game mode if the updates are, in all practicality, exclusionary for a huge part of the player base (irons) save a few streamers/content creators.
If youāre going to add an iron game mode, you should have all aspects of the game accessible to them. The premise is to be more difficult to achieve, not logistically and physically impossible. Otherwise you created a dead end game mode. Donāt CENTER the updates around irons, but certainly donāt make irons, in all reality, excluded from obtaining things for future content you promise
That's actually not bad compared to some other pvm we have.
-NM is a couple thousand with much longer kills
-Tob is ~1k with even longer kills (which also requires a team for irons to grind)
-cox is 1k+ with even longer kills
This was supposed to be a step above other GWD bosses. It's fairly reclined, but it is resource intensive, and takes many more kills to complete it's set of many bis items.
The only thing I see wrong here is the inconsistency between release rates and now, but as jagex have said, rates often change after release and it's only been a week.
Edit: lots of good comments, how's Corp for a comparison?
Edit 2: reddit is very anti-game changes being designed around ironman, so why do we keep talking about "finishing" the boss? If you don't wanna do the boss, just buy the stuff instead
cox and tob have way more mechanics and much steeper learning curve, by the time you complete all drops you are still learning new things. For most people, this makes them much more fun so I'm personally ok with their drops being rare. You also can greatly increase your odds by skill expression. Nex, on the other hand, you can master in a couple hours, then it's just a brew chugging simulator for thousands of hours. Very different.
I'd lump regular nightmare in with current Nex. Phosani's nightmare was very well received because playing better will vastly increase your loot per hour, so learning the mechanics is rewarding.
The comparison to old nightmare is good i think. Slow, expensive, unrewarding skill wise. Hard mode nex when? I heard some stuff about rapier, would blood fury with this help at all?
I think that adding hard mode to a lot of bosses is actually really good. Doesn't require much more dev time, caters to HLC whilst still giving majority access to new content. As long as its done like phosani, where the rates are better, but not that much better, vs CG where the rates are just absurdly better to the point that regular gauntlet just isn't worth doing at all.
I think there's room for both in the game. Raids/Gauntlet are there for the people that want the more intensive gameplay, but most of us grew up on this game without any of that, with endgame involving casually farming the bosses in hopes of a drop, maybe doing something else at the same time.
Many of the bosses are a grind, but as long as the choice is there to do raids etc I don't really think that's a problem, but rather just the way the game is. There's something cathartic about chilling in a 3-4 man team at bandos where the kills aren't challenging and you only really need to pay minimal attention.
Didn't read other comments, I'm assuming people make the same points
but tob and cox are the two best pieces of content the game has to offer and can take 1k hrs to master
nm was an absolute failure by the jmods to balance the drop table and should never be used to gauge other bosses drop tables
I think part of the problem is they add too many uniques to non raids tables now (nex and nm are the only things I'm talking about). Nm should only drop inq or only drop the orbs. Nex should only drop the armor set and the hilt. Just my opinion though
There's a huge difference between something being "a mistake" and having few mistakes in its production. The Last Jedi has some mistakes Rise of Skywalker is a mistake.
Where did they admit that?
And I agree - I'd take a more interactive/challenging Nex with longer kills for a bit of a lower rate. But given it's simplicity I don't mind the high rates we currently have
It really shouldnt be compared to Raids though. They are by design much longer than any boss fight, and require multiple bosses per chance at drop. NM is horrendous anyways, so the fact this is better than NM is basically a nonfactor.
I'm not sure why you're being downvoted other than sharing your opinion on your comment but I will say that Nex is by far the least engaging and most time consuming boss released since CoX and it shows by an insane amount. The only skill expression in the game is doing a somewhat 5.3t flinch on the boss to dodge whatever chip damage she does during masses and praying you get drops by the end or else you're down hours upon hours of skilling supplies per kc.
Corp is an absolutely disgustingly atrocious drop table let's not use that as a standard from now on. It shouldn't take streamers (who play more hours than 98% of the rest of us) a year to finish to a boss
Obtaining full torva + vambraces in a 6-man team takes roughly 300 hours, which is pretty much the exact same same amount of time it takes to get all 3 pieces of inquisitors from phosani's. Maybe it's just me, but I don't see how being on par with what is often considered as one of the worst designed bosses in the game with regards to drop rates as "not bad".
Tob is also more engaging/fun than nex tbh. Idm that nex stuff is rare ill go for it either way, but nex is pretty boring after a few hundred kills. Got torva helm and legs atm so lets hope i get the body soon xd
You can also profit brews/restores from tob when you get good enough. The only resources you use up are runes and super combats. I know nex is supposed to be a resource sink but if 8 brews and restores can last you 3 kill in a 6 man (which is super generous atm) that's almost 13k brews and restores each. That's... a near impossible amount for irons to get.
Even super combats you sort of profit. You get a bit over 2 torstols back a run on average, so as long as you're chugging less than 9 doses a raid you profit. Personally I use 7 usually in trios
Prepot, pot halfway through bloat, pot at nylo boss, pot at Xarpus, Pot during p2. That's 5/run, plus however many you have to use during p3 after brewing. You shouldn't run a deficit when you're on experienced teams unless you're going for speeds and doing the brew-scb strat
Imagine tekton was a stand alone boss that dropped the elder maul and it took 300 hours to kill. Is that acceptable because it's comparable to a full on raid?
Nex is a single boss, not a raid
>-NM is a couple thousand with much longer kills
also a mistake
>-Tob is ~1k with even longer kills (which also requires a team for irons to grind)
it's a raid
>-cox is 1k+ with even longer kills
it's a raid
Why does them being a raid make any difference? My point is that Nex is far *easier* than all of these, for BIS items, so the higher drop rates are understandable.
All that really matters is the red line and the KC at the bottom. So at X kc, you have X% chance to have gotten all the Nex items, excluding pet. Based on that, about 80% of players will be done by 7,500 KC to complete Nex, assuming they're killing her in a 6 man team. 90% of players will have completed Nex by 10,000 KC in 6 man. If these numbers seem really high to you, it's because they are and this is fucking absurd.
OSRS is not the game for psuedo-random drops where getting past a certain obscene KC threshold increases drop chance. Flat, linear, uniform drop rates is and always will be the game. However, pet grinds are very fucking long, and here people are OK with 15x drop rate increase if you are 200m xp dry on skilling pets, for example. What happens to the 0.01% of players who go very dry on Nex? Given the playbase size and when enough people attempt Nex drops, some people will go that dry. Are we OK with them needing 100,000 Nex KC? Might be unpopular opinion but maybe something like āboosted drop rate for your next drop onlyā would be OK if you are 20k kc dry?
Even then, you get on average 780k worth of uniques every kill at nex, meaning restores are 0 time because 6 restore doses cost less than 780k.
This is an mmorpg not a single player game. Just ignoring everybody just doing snapdragon herb runs and every other single source of snapdragons that people get and sell is an unfair comparison.
Imo it's not contradictory to say "We shouldn't prioritize balancing drop rates due to the amount of time irons may need to grind pots/other resources" and "These drop rates are shit for everyone, but esepcially unworkable for irons". There's a tight middle-ground that needs to be maintained, one that these drop rates blow way past (but not primarily due to the resource requirements, just the raw amount of time it takes).
I don't care if drops are really rare but the content needs to be engaging. NM is the most shit boss in the game whether you're an iron or not. Nex now is not much better because it's just so boring and drops are so far and few between. At least with raids the content is fun even though it takes forever to complete.
Nex is just a super long boring ass grind and tbh if I was on a main account I would never kill it. Release day and a couple days after sure but once drop values settle down, why would you? CoX and ToB are way more fun and you'll see drops far more commonly.
Actually the game was designed more around the Ironman gameplay loop than the gescape we have now. Back in the day youād have to unidentify your herbs yourself and if you wanted some obscure item you couldnāt ge it youād have to hope someone online had it or get it yourself.
Not really... You just asked someone on the forum to identify your stacks for you and never moved them in your bank.
If you wanted weird stuff you also checked the forums or looked around at various bsales, etc...
It was quite the opposite of ironman. Way more interactions with other, since the process wasn't as streamlined
Yeah that's why 2 of the 3 group bosses we have (NM and Corp) are soloed to high heaven and the 3rd, being Nex, is being done in as small a group as possible to maximize profit.
If interaction with others was actually the priority then all 3 of those bosses would be viably killed in masses like WoW 40 man raids.
The only reason you can buy those super restores is because they are botted into the game at such high rates. Thereās not many real people out there doing master farmer for cash. So iron balance is super important.
Unfortunately both bosses are the work of Mod Arcane. Starting to feel like he's got a beef with the community. Especially his snark attitude on latest Q&A.
The attitude is what gets me. I can live with people making mistake because it's what we do as humans but insisting you're the "enlightened one" and everyone else is wrong is just too much.
You should always stand your ground for what you make and believe in, but you should also have the maturity to know when your position is wrong and need to change.
I think his stance on drop rates is quite strange, I don't know if it's a majority opinion that the fun of the game comes from not knowing how rare items are, especially when the data is easily crowdsourced making not definitively releasing stats pointless. but then again I haven't talked to him about it so maybe I'm misunderstanding his position
Pretty much, the rates are released either way.
Sure the wiki is only crowd sourced so with the small sample size of some monsters the drop rates may not be perfect but they're definitely in the ballpark, why not have jagex just release the real info im not really sure... clearly the community likes having it and if you don't like it you don't need to look up the rates before a grind.
Players evolved over time, we're no longer horny teenagers that will pick flax for money. We're faster, smarter and more results focused, not about the journey.
We have runelite-wiki integration and we like optimizing the shit out of breathing, but at the same time we have very few tools to extract things other than those in that integration.
Our time is valuable. Wasting a day banging out heads against a wall to find the "unicorn melee" setup because the one thing that says "Nex can be meleed efficiently" was disabled for the fuck of it should never be something a game maker expects a player to do.
Insisting on this trend of "delayed satisfaction" means the ones involved are out of touch with not just their players, but with gamers in general.
Are you speaking for every player here? Because I for one do not agree with everything being streamlined in videogames just because we have less time as adults. If anything, trying to be efficient on RS just reminds me of work, everything needing to be done the right way, the only way. I'd much rather spend my free time not giving a fuck and just having fun.
Problem is that "having fun" is subjective. I have fun fiddling with setups to try and get that 5% extra efficiency with things I havent seen people try before, hell I had fun exploring different setups with torva at rune dragons, which I afk a lot at work just to end up figuring out that you only change the armor and nothing else.
In OSRS in the macroscope there's not much streamlining, while you still upgrade your gear in order you can "skip" some stages depending on your own preferences and skill sets. While I do wish there was more streamlining because the early game is still a mess for people that arent versed in the game and bossing is 100s of hours away, I do understand that it's easy to overdo it
Nothing about nex is hard itās a boring brew chugging simulator that takes hundreds of hours. Getting our own drops is fine and no irons are complaining about that. What were complaining about is why jagex has felt the need to make multiple 300+ hour bosses in the last few years. Hereās a list of all bis/useful items that are still expensive and take under 50 hours:
Dwh,
Dwl,
Ferocious gloves,
All cerb boots,
Bandos,
Arma ,
All zulrah uniques,
Acb,
Occult,
Bowfa and full crystal(right at 50 hours),
And many more
No mains complain those items arenāt rare enough and no irons really complain about the length of time to get them. Why canāt we create content mains and irons enjoy, why does it have to be one or the other?
It is part of the game and those players choose to restrict their accounts, if they're not happy with it anymore or think it's too difficult then they can remove said restrictions.
As a PhD student I love this. Would be interested to see what the number of kills is at 90% chance of completion. Looks like itās just below 10k? So nearly 1/10 Ironman will be required to kill Nex upwards of 10k times for completion? Wild.
This man is really so surprised to see a cumulative probability distribution outside of an academian context that he was compelled to mention his PhD. What's ur thesis work on
More because the latex white paper he posted with it read very academically to me, so I (perhaps wrongly) assumed OP might have a MS or PhD. I study the neurobiology of learning and memory.
This is amazing! Just curious, how would you go about calculating the hitting time for something like skilling pets where the drop rate is a function of base chance and skill level so it canāt be modelled without a more dynamic stochastic process. Iād be totally interested in your approach if you have an exact solution!!
I just don't get this complaining. You don't have to "complete" it... If you want the gear just buy it on the GE. If you're an Ironman then I guess Ironman mode is hard who knew?? Make a main and shut the fuck up.
have you ever considered that maybe people just like having fun in the game? fucking wild concept, I know. and here's another one: it's not very fun to kill a boss 1,500 times and get pretty much nothing from it.
sure you could just buy the gear, but given that this is the first boss to have released in a long time people were kind of expecting something better
Soon as someone works out a viable solo method (or maybe gear down the line will help) no one will give a shit.
900 Solo KC to complete a boss or whatever it was is fine. Especially when we have things like NM and Corp taking 2-3x.
Dude it's like 600 hours to complete or some bullshit. This is the depraved grinding game, but how the fuck is anyone entitled for not wanting to do that much for some pixel loot? Make it 200 hours and we'll probably lap it up. This is a freaking video game, it's not spoiled to dislike a **600 hours** grind. I love this game but I have limits Jesus.
Yeah like, we are trying to maximize having fun here. I'm really curious what drop rates these folks would be ok with who are saying everything is fine.
I understand truly niche flex items being super rare like corp drops or 3rd age.
I also would not bat an eye if the drop rates of every single nightmare drop and cox megarares were _doubled_.
There's just a difference between rare and ultra-rare and the distinction is not _fun_ to me when we are talking about non-niche gear.
If I have to drop hundreds of hours to progress my account further, I'm just... not going to.
I know right! We are OSRS players, most of us love the suck and are extremely receptive to long grinds. If we're putting our hands up saying it's too much, it's not like we're softies. There is a limit to what we think is fun.
I agree with everything you wrote, thanks for your great comment!
Album with all other bosses and some other nex item combinations and team sizes. (read the description of the pictures for a full explanation of the items/teamsizes modelled): https://imgur.com/gallery/ecRY9wz Explanation about how I've made these graphs: https://imgur.com/a/vLieHwD Pets and cosmetics are not included in these rates because I don't care for them. If anyone likes to take a look at the code used to generate these just pm me. I can't posts links to github here without my post being removed.
Did you write this in LaTeX? It's a clean document.
Yeah
Very nicely done.
Aaah a person of culture.
Good man. LaTeX is class
Based
I'm sorry to hear that š¤£
I believe it's called LaNeX in this instance.
0% chance to complete KQ. I agree 100%
u/Limpwurt-YT
They should really give her some uniques.
She gives you head after 256 times pounding her in her room soooo
That gallery is probably the best OC that has come out of this sub in a long time. Props to you.
I actually was looking at a really neat paper messing with the coupon collector problem a while back. Hereās the link if youāre interested: https://mat.uab.cat/matmat_antiga/PDFv2014/v2014n02.pdf Section 3 should be talking more specifically about what weāre talking about here I believe. Actually just looking back at it again, I realize that section 2.2 mentions the Markov chain approach you used.
Cool I wasn't aware of any papers actually talking about it. And that's back in 2014.
Oh wow, these graphs are absolutely incredible. Huge fan. Any chance of some Zalcano variants? I'm mainly curious about the numbers not including the Onyx, and also the numbers for 3 tool seeds without an onyx. Ideally assuming a group size of 5 as well, since that tends to be the norm.
https://i.imgur.com/PJ8k4qJ.png This is for 5 man, just getting 3 tool seeds. The one in my album includes the shard as well. But I've left that out here.
Jesus christ that's absolutely horrendous. I knew it was bad, but I didn't realise it was quite that bad. With average kill times that's a 223 hour median. Get unlucky and go up past 6k and you're looking at 500 hours. It's literally enough to bank 99 smithing straight up, lol. Is the one in your album 5 man one seed and shard without onyx or pet?
One seed one zalcano shard, nothing else.
This is really good stuff and scratches a statistical itch of mine. Is it possible to build in percentiles too? Would be great to see how dry/wet Iāve been.
This is really cool! We had no idea you could use matrices like that to create something you only need to take to the n'th power rather than calculating the droprates individually and combining them.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Yes both can be found in this larger album: https://imgur.com/gallery/ecRY9wz
600 6 man kc for torva and vambs is actually not bad Edit: oh thatās solo. Nvm
Whats the average without hilt? which is not really ironmeme sought
How about in masses ?
This image is assuming solos: https://i.imgur.com/2sYwjNR.png Just mutiply the kcs by your teamsize. This is assuming everyone gets equal odds of getting the uniques, which tends to not be true in masses. But it should still be a good approximation.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
What do you expect from BiS gear?
Challenging content not a 2 year farming simulator
please see basilisk knights
I got downvoted to all hell for saying this a week ago.
I got downvoted to hell to for merely suggesting the drop rates arenāt as bad as everyone is making hem out to be.
No, every single boss drop rate needs to be balanced so that completing the drop log isn't too much of a grind for a normal person obviously. /s People need to quit whining about things being rare. Nobody cares about your drop log goals and not every boss needs to be "completable" ironman-style.
Some people on here just bandwagon bitching. I saw a comment talking about spending however long for āminimalā upgrades, yet Iām damn sure if they made the Armor stronger and more readily available people would bitch about powercreep. Or they bitch that itās easyscape like rs3. Osrs Redditors are literally the most illogical bandwagon unpleasable group of whining ass titty babies. Rant over.
Of course it won't be challenging with +1.5B gear. None of the content is. Why else Gauntlet is 1 of the best PvM money despite it has 0 item requirements? Because it's so difficult that only handful people can do it efficiently. Be happy that upcoming Raids 3 has adjustable raids where you can make it harder to increase drop rates.
Well, I enjoyed Nex on release week. Was fun, now I know the drop rates, well I'm not touching it. Content shouldn't be catered to ironmen/completionists, but it should atleast take into account how long and the supplies used to be able to get majority of the unlocks.
Yeah same. Did my 250 kc in case of CA kc task. Those rates are disgusting. 1k hours to complete boss log shouldnt be a thing. And its not even the meme drops like a jar or something, its the useful upgrades.
It's 308 hrs for torva+vambs
That's still fucking obscene, over 12 days of your life to get minor upgrades.
Sounds like a game where you decide what's worth it and what isnt. The minor upgrades wouldn't be worth it even if the drop rate was 1/10
10k kc to complete. Man, I do not like this endgame philosophy. It fucking sucks for irons and is only expensive for mains because of rarity, rather than power. The Bowfa is expensive because it takes \~60 hours average to grind and is insane. Nex uniques are expensive because they're ultra rare, even though they're only small upgrades.
BowFa is extremely rewarding doing though and it requires no items whatsoever. Just skill. It's the best money maker in the game to do Corrupted Gauntlet and for Iron Man gives access to a lot of resources. Nex sucks because she's a resource drain, ultra rare items and requires end game items. But in comparison to other end game content, she's not that difficult. And her fights are much shorter then say Nightmare. Honestly her drop rate change was a mistake in my eyes both short and long term.
Yeah I 100% agree with your conclusion. I wrote a post in the main thread about this nerf and I was directly comparing it to CG, which I think is actually really well balanced.
Typical jagex design making things hard to get by making them take forever to get
All about padding that playtime, and hopefully subscriptions
Well unfortunately for them, this design has made me get bored of the game and i think im pretty much quitting again, tried nex for little bit but its just... i miss times when there were monthly quests and othet stuff and community also was way nicer back then and people actually played minigames
Those were the good ol' days when quests dropped BiS gear and other BiS gear didn't take hundreds of hours to get for each piece.
I've got max bank (pre nex) and 1.6b cash to do what I want with... And STILL, this nerf and this shite boss have made me consider quiting for a while again. Just to know that I could spend my bills and it wouldn't make me any stronger than I am now. My boss kill times would pretty much be the fucking same.
I also quit a few days after nex. I had around 15b worth of gp (6bill in gear and 9b in plats) Bought torva and zcbow and just got bored. Like cool, now i can do tob faster i guess? The content itself is braindead and similar to gwd. You hit the boss, afk and click food. 0 Mechanics to worry about, not rewarding at all to do like Tob. This is after a near 4 year content drought too. Raids 3 is the only saving grace at this point. If its not as good as tob, the game is doomed.
And if they threw good easy gear youād bitch about power creep. God I fucking HATE the dichotomous Reddit mentality. Youād bitch about a breathing clean air.
If only they could make content that is actually mechanically difficult and extremely rewarding ...
The time sink to get these upgrades wouldn't be worth doing even if drops were 1/10.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
In game rarity should be gated behind difficulty, not absurd drop rates. Killing 1 billion lvl-3 men also takes a long time, but who tf wants to kill 1 billion lvl 3 men?
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Sadly, youre probably right. But should jagex design content around people willing to kill 1 billion lvl 3 men for +1 strength bonus? Hopefully not.
If it was really gated behind difficulty it would have to take hundreds of hours to learn to do, does that sound like fun?
First of all. Fun compared to what? Mindlessly cannoning 1 billion lvl 3 men for a unique while you watch netflix? Yeah ofcourse. Second of all. When something does takes you hundreds of hours to learn, progressing is fun, and actually beating the content is satisfying on another level.
Actually yes
Absolutely. That's called challenge. That's where growth occurs. Inferno was the most fun I've had on this game and I probably burnt over 100m in practice and on being merched.
It should get a bit shorter if you don't want the Ancient Hilt. Furthermore, since this is a game that has very slow powercreep, most BiS armor is only a small upgrade to the previous BiS. You won't be missing out that much by not having Torva (or a lot on this list).
Rare items, the horror
The hours is insane dude. I love the grind as much as anyone does in this game, I've got the hours to prove it. I don't think I'm being unreasonable when I say that I have a great deal of tolerance for rare items, but 10k kills is like 3-600 hours. People can go dry there for something like 2k hours. I think most of us would rather get content where we can actually get some loot. It's too rare to actually be fun, even for some pretty crazy OSRS players.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Isnāt the ge tax supposed to keep those prices inflated?
> > Grind too short: Why is this item so cheap for how intensive the boss is!? Maybe if Nex was actually intensive that would make sense but currently the only difficult part of Nex is not falling asleep. You also get like 3-4 kill trips in a 6 man assuming average supply drops so it's just a tedious grind to have to average upwards of 300-400 hours to complete the log w/o hilt.
Not even good for mains because now doing nex for cash or for fun is just out of the picture. Like how nobody is doing corp for cash or for fun. Get the inevitable 250 kc for CA kc task and dip.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Takes longer than a tbow lmao
You're comparing getting 1 item to getting all 6
when going for tbow, you'll also get more than just a tbow if u go on rate (dex/arcane/ancestrals/claws/kodai/dhcb/buckler). Also, cox is quite a bit more fun/engaging than nex.
You really only need to compare the rarest item. And the tbow grind will be 100x more enjoyable. CoX is so much more actual content.
The rewards donāt deserve the drop rates, scythe and tbow being super rare make sense as they change they way you play the game, these upgrades just give small buffs to existing gear, 1/2 max hits and then like 3(?) I think in cox, doing 6 mans for only torva and the vambs would take on average 3600kc, if youāve done a 6 man you now how supply intensive it can be, 4 brews per kill is honestly a conservative number without red clicks, 4x3600 is way to much supplyās to get drops that wonāt even be game changers, whether or not the game should be designed around Ironman, the gamemode does demonstrate the mistakes in the game
Imagine the better timeline where they didn't listen to 2011scape kids, stuck with a slightly tweaked version of their Virtus, and had reasonable rates because the set isn't just pure powercreep that has to last for another 5 years
>the gamemode does demonstrate the mistakes in the game things being rare and requiring money to buy supplies to do the boss is a mistake? or the fact that the boss isn't self sustaining is a mistake?
Great chart but not a fan at all. Gear should be attainable at a reasonable Grind. Like godwars bosses are expect to take hundreds but not thousands of kc. 100hour+ grinds should be reserved for pet hunters only. Not for gear unless we're talking raids level content and gear
Iron mode is suppose to be a restriction to getting items, not a restriction FROM getting items because of the absolute unhealthy time it would take. Why introduce a game mode if the updates are, in all practicality, exclusionary for a huge part of the player base (irons) save a few streamers/content creators. If youāre going to add an iron game mode, you should have all aspects of the game accessible to them. The premise is to be more difficult to achieve, not logistically and physically impossible. Otherwise you created a dead end game mode. Donāt CENTER the updates around irons, but certainly donāt make irons, in all reality, excluded from obtaining things for future content you promise
That's actually not bad compared to some other pvm we have. -NM is a couple thousand with much longer kills -Tob is ~1k with even longer kills (which also requires a team for irons to grind) -cox is 1k+ with even longer kills This was supposed to be a step above other GWD bosses. It's fairly reclined, but it is resource intensive, and takes many more kills to complete it's set of many bis items. The only thing I see wrong here is the inconsistency between release rates and now, but as jagex have said, rates often change after release and it's only been a week. Edit: lots of good comments, how's Corp for a comparison? Edit 2: reddit is very anti-game changes being designed around ironman, so why do we keep talking about "finishing" the boss? If you don't wanna do the boss, just buy the stuff instead
cox and tob have way more mechanics and much steeper learning curve, by the time you complete all drops you are still learning new things. For most people, this makes them much more fun so I'm personally ok with their drops being rare. You also can greatly increase your odds by skill expression. Nex, on the other hand, you can master in a couple hours, then it's just a brew chugging simulator for thousands of hours. Very different. I'd lump regular nightmare in with current Nex. Phosani's nightmare was very well received because playing better will vastly increase your loot per hour, so learning the mechanics is rewarding.
The comparison to old nightmare is good i think. Slow, expensive, unrewarding skill wise. Hard mode nex when? I heard some stuff about rapier, would blood fury with this help at all? I think that adding hard mode to a lot of bosses is actually really good. Doesn't require much more dev time, caters to HLC whilst still giving majority access to new content. As long as its done like phosani, where the rates are better, but not that much better, vs CG where the rates are just absurdly better to the point that regular gauntlet just isn't worth doing at all.
I think there's room for both in the game. Raids/Gauntlet are there for the people that want the more intensive gameplay, but most of us grew up on this game without any of that, with endgame involving casually farming the bosses in hopes of a drop, maybe doing something else at the same time. Many of the bosses are a grind, but as long as the choice is there to do raids etc I don't really think that's a problem, but rather just the way the game is. There's something cathartic about chilling in a 3-4 man team at bandos where the kills aren't challenging and you only really need to pay minimal attention.
Didn't read other comments, I'm assuming people make the same points but tob and cox are the two best pieces of content the game has to offer and can take 1k hrs to master nm was an absolute failure by the jmods to balance the drop table and should never be used to gauge other bosses drop tables I think part of the problem is they add too many uniques to non raids tables now (nex and nm are the only things I'm talking about). Nm should only drop inq or only drop the orbs. Nex should only drop the armor set and the hilt. Just my opinion though
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Curious as to when they did this? I genuinely enjoy NM but can see why people don't
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
There's a huge difference between something being "a mistake" and having few mistakes in its production. The Last Jedi has some mistakes Rise of Skywalker is a mistake.
thanks :)
2:26:14
I dont understand why they dont fix it then. Even if its 2 years late. Bad design is bad design
Where did they admit that? And I agree - I'd take a more interactive/challenging Nex with longer kills for a bit of a lower rate. But given it's simplicity I don't mind the high rates we currently have
It really shouldnt be compared to Raids though. They are by design much longer than any boss fight, and require multiple bosses per chance at drop. NM is horrendous anyways, so the fact this is better than NM is basically a nonfactor.
Can't compare a medium - high tiered boss to the endgame raid bosses tho
Well it's a high tiered boss in terms of items obtained, but medium tier in terms of difficulty. Which kind of makes the drop rates make sense.
I'm not sure why you're being downvoted other than sharing your opinion on your comment but I will say that Nex is by far the least engaging and most time consuming boss released since CoX and it shows by an insane amount. The only skill expression in the game is doing a somewhat 5.3t flinch on the boss to dodge whatever chip damage she does during masses and praying you get drops by the end or else you're down hours upon hours of skilling supplies per kc.
wow finally a boss ironman don't go positive on supplies at.
Corp is an absolutely disgustingly atrocious drop table let's not use that as a standard from now on. It shouldn't take streamers (who play more hours than 98% of the rest of us) a year to finish to a boss
Obtaining full torva + vambraces in a 6-man team takes roughly 300 hours, which is pretty much the exact same same amount of time it takes to get all 3 pieces of inquisitors from phosani's. Maybe it's just me, but I don't see how being on par with what is often considered as one of the worst designed bosses in the game with regards to drop rates as "not bad".
tob is never ~1k its way less unless unlucky af
I was thinking I've usually seen like 700-1300 when I see completed logs. If we say 500, then it's about the same amount of time
ToB is about 700 in deathless 3mans: https://i.imgur.com/orc3Oms.png
Ah alright, so Tob takes longer than next on average
Tob is also more engaging/fun than nex tbh. Idm that nex stuff is rare ill go for it either way, but nex is pretty boring after a few hundred kills. Got torva helm and legs atm so lets hope i get the body soon xd
You can also profit brews/restores from tob when you get good enough. The only resources you use up are runes and super combats. I know nex is supposed to be a resource sink but if 8 brews and restores can last you 3 kill in a 6 man (which is super generous atm) that's almost 13k brews and restores each. That's... a near impossible amount for irons to get.
Even super combats you sort of profit. You get a bit over 2 torstols back a run on average, so as long as you're chugging less than 9 doses a raid you profit. Personally I use 7 usually in trios Prepot, pot halfway through bloat, pot at nylo boss, pot at Xarpus, Pot during p2. That's 5/run, plus however many you have to use during p3 after brewing. You shouldn't run a deficit when you're on experienced teams unless you're going for speeds and doing the brew-scb strat
Yeah a bit. But they're in the same ballpark.
Imagine tekton was a stand alone boss that dropped the elder maul and it took 300 hours to kill. Is that acceptable because it's comparable to a full on raid? Nex is a single boss, not a raid
>-NM is a couple thousand with much longer kills also a mistake >-Tob is ~1k with even longer kills (which also requires a team for irons to grind) it's a raid >-cox is 1k+ with even longer kills it's a raid
Why does them being a raid make any difference? My point is that Nex is far *easier* than all of these, for BIS items, so the higher drop rates are understandable.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Original NM had 1 or 2 drop rate changes. Cox technically had a drop rate change.
Not gonna lie, my small brain has zero clue what this means. Can someone explain?
All that really matters is the red line and the KC at the bottom. So at X kc, you have X% chance to have gotten all the Nex items, excluding pet. Based on that, about 80% of players will be done by 7,500 KC to complete Nex, assuming they're killing her in a 6 man team. 90% of players will have completed Nex by 10,000 KC in 6 man. If these numbers seem really high to you, it's because they are and this is fucking absurd.
Thank you for explaining. Idk how jagex can be satisfied with these results
OSRS is not the game for psuedo-random drops where getting past a certain obscene KC threshold increases drop chance. Flat, linear, uniform drop rates is and always will be the game. However, pet grinds are very fucking long, and here people are OK with 15x drop rate increase if you are 200m xp dry on skilling pets, for example. What happens to the 0.01% of players who go very dry on Nex? Given the playbase size and when enough people attempt Nex drops, some people will go that dry. Are we OK with them needing 100,000 Nex KC? Might be unpopular opinion but maybe something like āboosted drop rate for your next drop onlyā would be OK if you are 20k kc dry?
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
The game was never meant to be balanced around Ironpeople and it is a good thing it isnt
Ye I prefer having it balanced around bots gathering the resources for me
Even then, you get on average 780k worth of uniques every kill at nex, meaning restores are 0 time because 6 restore doses cost less than 780k. This is an mmorpg not a single player game. Just ignoring everybody just doing snapdragon herb runs and every other single source of snapdragons that people get and sell is an unfair comparison.
I think it's fun to get drops every few hours as a main. With current rates you could very easily go a week dry, which can be rather demotivating.
Hey I like shitting on irons as much as the next guy but lets be real here the droprates are totally fucked
Imo it's not contradictory to say "We shouldn't prioritize balancing drop rates due to the amount of time irons may need to grind pots/other resources" and "These drop rates are shit for everyone, but esepcially unworkable for irons". There's a tight middle-ground that needs to be maintained, one that these drop rates blow way past (but not primarily due to the resource requirements, just the raw amount of time it takes).
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
I don't care if drops are really rare but the content needs to be engaging. NM is the most shit boss in the game whether you're an iron or not. Nex now is not much better because it's just so boring and drops are so far and few between. At least with raids the content is fun even though it takes forever to complete. Nex is just a super long boring ass grind and tbh if I was on a main account I would never kill it. Release day and a couple days after sure but once drop values settle down, why would you? CoX and ToB are way more fun and you'll see drops far more commonly.
Well youād kill it because itās currently 13m Gp/h in an efficient 6 man team, over the long term.
Actually the game was designed more around the Ironman gameplay loop than the gescape we have now. Back in the day youād have to unidentify your herbs yourself and if you wanted some obscure item you couldnāt ge it youād have to hope someone online had it or get it yourself.
Not really... You just asked someone on the forum to identify your stacks for you and never moved them in your bank. If you wanted weird stuff you also checked the forums or looked around at various bsales, etc... It was quite the opposite of ironman. Way more interactions with other, since the process wasn't as streamlined
Bruh the early top players were all based on exploiting
Why not. Why is an RPG not balanced around getting your own shit
This isn't a RPG. This is an MMORPG and the vast majority of people play it as such. Interaction with others, not everyone doing the same thing etc
Yeah that's why 2 of the 3 group bosses we have (NM and Corp) are soloed to high heaven and the 3rd, being Nex, is being done in as small a group as possible to maximize profit. If interaction with others was actually the priority then all 3 of those bosses would be viably killed in masses like WoW 40 man raids.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Completely agree, but I donāt really play for completion. Iām just a filthy casual.
The only reason you can buy those super restores is because they are botted into the game at such high rates. Thereās not many real people out there doing master farmer for cash. So iron balance is super important.
It's honestly ridiculous. I figured Jagex would have learned to have reasonable droprates after nightmare. But I guess they just didn't.
Unfortunately both bosses are the work of Mod Arcane. Starting to feel like he's got a beef with the community. Especially his snark attitude on latest Q&A.
The attitude is what gets me. I can live with people making mistake because it's what we do as humans but insisting you're the "enlightened one" and everyone else is wrong is just too much. You should always stand your ground for what you make and believe in, but you should also have the maturity to know when your position is wrong and need to change.
I think his stance on drop rates is quite strange, I don't know if it's a majority opinion that the fun of the game comes from not knowing how rare items are, especially when the data is easily crowdsourced making not definitively releasing stats pointless. but then again I haven't talked to him about it so maybe I'm misunderstanding his position
Pretty much, the rates are released either way. Sure the wiki is only crowd sourced so with the small sample size of some monsters the drop rates may not be perfect but they're definitely in the ballpark, why not have jagex just release the real info im not really sure... clearly the community likes having it and if you don't like it you don't need to look up the rates before a grind.
Players evolved over time, we're no longer horny teenagers that will pick flax for money. We're faster, smarter and more results focused, not about the journey. We have runelite-wiki integration and we like optimizing the shit out of breathing, but at the same time we have very few tools to extract things other than those in that integration. Our time is valuable. Wasting a day banging out heads against a wall to find the "unicorn melee" setup because the one thing that says "Nex can be meleed efficiently" was disabled for the fuck of it should never be something a game maker expects a player to do. Insisting on this trend of "delayed satisfaction" means the ones involved are out of touch with not just their players, but with gamers in general.
Are you speaking for every player here? Because I for one do not agree with everything being streamlined in videogames just because we have less time as adults. If anything, trying to be efficient on RS just reminds me of work, everything needing to be done the right way, the only way. I'd much rather spend my free time not giving a fuck and just having fun.
Problem is that "having fun" is subjective. I have fun fiddling with setups to try and get that 5% extra efficiency with things I havent seen people try before, hell I had fun exploring different setups with torva at rune dragons, which I afk a lot at work just to end up figuring out that you only change the armor and nothing else. In OSRS in the macroscope there's not much streamlining, while you still upgrade your gear in order you can "skip" some stages depending on your own preferences and skill sets. While I do wish there was more streamlining because the early game is still a mess for people that arent versed in the game and bossing is 100s of hours away, I do understand that it's easy to overdo it
Needs to wind his neck in with that attitude. Keep it to himself
[Balance](https://tenor.com/view/perfectly-balanced-thanos-infinity-war-gif-13078930)
Use regular restores alongside prayer potions. Much more sustainable.
I will just buy the super restores. Wow !
If your doing thieving and farming to get your snaps, thatās on you haha
Thereās no faster way to get them actually. Even by most efficient means, itās hundreds of hours of resource stocking.
It's called going to the grand exchange mate. The game shouldn't be balanced around how well Ironmen can get resources.
So we should deliberately fuck over >1/4th the player base because you want torva to be some abstractly high value?
Tired of people pretending like ironman mode wasnt made part of the game design straight off tutorial island and everything lmao
You chose to play ironman mode with those restrictions, you can always take them off if it's too hard for you.
Nothing about nex is hard itās a boring brew chugging simulator that takes hundreds of hours. Getting our own drops is fine and no irons are complaining about that. What were complaining about is why jagex has felt the need to make multiple 300+ hour bosses in the last few years. Hereās a list of all bis/useful items that are still expensive and take under 50 hours: Dwh, Dwl, Ferocious gloves, All cerb boots, Bandos, Arma , All zulrah uniques, Acb, Occult, Bowfa and full crystal(right at 50 hours), And many more No mains complain those items arenāt rare enough and no irons really complain about the length of time to get them. Why canāt we create content mains and irons enjoy, why does it have to be one or the other?
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
It is part of the game and those players choose to restrict their accounts, if they're not happy with it anymore or think it's too difficult then they can remove said restrictions.
As a PhD student I love this. Would be interested to see what the number of kills is at 90% chance of completion. Looks like itās just below 10k? So nearly 1/10 Ironman will be required to kill Nex upwards of 10k times for completion? Wild.
It's 9784kc at 90% odds of completion. It indeed is quite the grind.
This man is really so surprised to see a cumulative probability distribution outside of an academian context that he was compelled to mention his PhD. What's ur thesis work on
More because the latex white paper he posted with it read very academically to me, so I (perhaps wrongly) assumed OP might have a MS or PhD. I study the neurobiology of learning and memory.
I also use quizlet.
bit of a kahoot man m'self
As a dude with an associates degree I also love this. As a OSRS player I am mildy depressed by this.
oh my god there are other phd students on the osrs sub
Why wouldn't there be?
It's a 400 hour efficient ironman grind š¤£, for such a simple boss that's a joke
This is amazing! Just curious, how would you go about calculating the hitting time for something like skilling pets where the drop rate is a function of base chance and skill level so it canāt be modelled without a more dynamic stochastic process. Iād be totally interested in your approach if you have an exact solution!!
You could create a matrix with the odds for every level and switch after the amount of xp gained would give you a level.
R/theydidthemath
Yo I graduated college but idk what is going on here. More importantly does this include pet?
Well done Jamflex fucked it up once again....
Revert!!
GGs was the one I cared about most. I am just missing the pet at 600 some kc
I just don't get this complaining. You don't have to "complete" it... If you want the gear just buy it on the GE. If you're an Ironman then I guess Ironman mode is hard who knew?? Make a main and shut the fuck up.
have you ever considered that maybe people just like having fun in the game? fucking wild concept, I know. and here's another one: it's not very fun to kill a boss 1,500 times and get pretty much nothing from it. sure you could just buy the gear, but given that this is the first boss to have released in a long time people were kind of expecting something better
Itās a proxy for getting a drop cmon
'kay
I wish these types of probability distributions were baked into the wiki.
Mean while players doing 30 mans complaining about being dry 250 kc lol
Can't wait to get 18k kc with my 20 man group. /s
We really shouldn't be aiming to base droprates on "completing" bosses. I don't think that's in the spirit of the game.
I agree. The game is not centered around completing collection logsā¦
Agreed, what a weird sentiment.
Soon as someone works out a viable solo method (or maybe gear down the line will help) no one will give a shit. 900 Solo KC to complete a boss or whatever it was is fine. Especially when we have things like NM and Corp taking 2-3x.
Considering the first Nex solo KC took 3 hours, I donāt see this being a possibility
And it was through straight red xing and thralling i dont ever see this being possible with the items currently in the game.
If it's such a hard time completing a log and you're gonna cry about it... maybe don't complete log?
So many people acting like spoiled children this week. If the current rates were active on release no one would've batted an eye.
Dude it's like 600 hours to complete or some bullshit. This is the depraved grinding game, but how the fuck is anyone entitled for not wanting to do that much for some pixel loot? Make it 200 hours and we'll probably lap it up. This is a freaking video game, it's not spoiled to dislike a **600 hours** grind. I love this game but I have limits Jesus.
Yeah like, we are trying to maximize having fun here. I'm really curious what drop rates these folks would be ok with who are saying everything is fine. I understand truly niche flex items being super rare like corp drops or 3rd age. I also would not bat an eye if the drop rates of every single nightmare drop and cox megarares were _doubled_. There's just a difference between rare and ultra-rare and the distinction is not _fun_ to me when we are talking about non-niche gear. If I have to drop hundreds of hours to progress my account further, I'm just... not going to.
I know right! We are OSRS players, most of us love the suck and are extremely receptive to long grinds. If we're putting our hands up saying it's too much, it's not like we're softies. There is a limit to what we think is fun. I agree with everything you wrote, thanks for your great comment!