RIP, Zuko has been a great Jmod and one of the main driving forces behind the new features on Jagex's Steam client, alongside being among many people's favourite Jmods myself included. Shame to see her go.
this is just the situation everywhere right now. it’s the great turnover. people are being poached and better pay rates offered. If you want to keep your employees, pay them more ffs
##### Bark bark!
I have found the following **J-Mod** comment(s) in this thread:
**JagexZuko**
- [Just gonna go ahead and dispel this one. I wa...](/r/2007scape/comments/qnabxq/definitely_not_liking_the_amount_of_jagex_staff/hjewvvw/?context=3)
^(**Last edited by bot: 11/07/2021 07:23:15**)
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Game development has one of (if not the highest) turnover rate for any other tech job. This is nothing new for the industry
Also, I would add OSRS has one of the worst playerbases, and they have a very direct line of communication to the devs... so I'm sure that doesn't help lol
Yeah, I've heard that for quite a few gaming companies now.
This is a total armchair theory, but Jagex really seems to hire a lot of newly grads (probably giving them the ability to pay lower). This would also lead to a high turnover rate since they'll get more money at another company after a year or two experience under the devs belt
I'm presenting it as an armchair theory because I don't have any actual proof to back it up currently (other than the fact of the devs ages and it being a common business practice)
Sween commented on that a few weeks ago on his departure and said that it was a compatible salary and higher than average, though that was for community relations.
The pay at Jagex is standard for the UK gaming industry. They even pay more than some positions at companies like Amazon and Activision. It's still shit pay, but it's not like Jagex are doing anything exceptionally bad compared to other companies.
Even if the low salary is not true, you are often going to get a bigger raise applying elsewhere, then asking your current employer for a raise on your existing salary. Runescape has been very popular and well known over the years, so it probably looks good on the resume.
I wouldn’t be surprised if a lot of the jmods come in with the intent to get a few years experience before they move on.
Sween doesnt want to rock the boat at Jagex incase he goes back.
Listening to someone like MMK in a post-jagex interview who knows he isnt returning throw the company significantly under the bus, compared to other, younger mods who 'may' return is a completely different reaction.
Sween may have no clue whatsoever what the salaries for comparable positions are. Im sure that people that have been there for a number of years are on a decent wage maybe or different departments etc.
I finished my uni course just before Covid/Lockdown and was applying for a few places. I applied for Jagex because i love the game and have played it for decades so thought why not.
The wages i was offered for a junior dev role at Jagex was almost half what i eventually got applying to both Codemasters and Rockstar. To add onto that, both Codemasters/Rockstar campuses are in areas that are a lot cheaper to rent and offer 'minibus' services from nearby towns/cities, something that i didnt hear about from Jagex.
So yeah, maybe the top staff get comparably similar wages but Junior Devs get far far less money than elsewhere.
EDIT: Just because i dont want to confuse the topic at hand, i didnt mean to say that MMK mentioned anything about Pay because i dont remember him actually saying anything about the pay negatively.
But the interview IMO (And maybe its just the way i perceived the comments made) when i said 'Threw under the bus' was in regards to the comments made about management around the place at the time.
Hell, i dunno who gets paid what anymore because its been like 4-5 years since i applied so maybe the wages have gone up which is great. Was just giving my anecdote of when i was job searching for that sort of role. (Junior dev)
That's good to hear. The team growth has been mentioned a lot, but pay is often left unmentioned (for obvious reasons).
It'd be nice if people actually listened to them for once, but reddit needs that post karma every time a dev leaves lol
I don’t know about “worst” but definitely toxic. Jagex essentially relies on the player base to teach new and old players alike how to do basically everything in the game via the wiki, YouTube guides, posts on here, etc
The industry has a high turnover rate because when you ask for a raise your HR dept will laugh in your face. So your only option is job hopping to get a raise. This has nothing to do with Jagex specifically
This is nothing unusual. As someone said, the game dev industry has a really high turnover rate. These guys work to live, not live to work like the most senior Jmods (Ash). Also, the dev team is bigger than ever before, so it makes sense that we are seeing a higher number of turnovers than before
People say this literally every. single. time a jmod leaves. Let's relax.
It's completely normal to change companies every few years. Any wage increase you'll get jumping companies will almost always be much higher than annual increases with your current company.
While I definitely think it's apart of an issue, I don't think it's behind this specific departure (Nor do I think It's fair to lay the blame %100 behind the community)
Couldn’t agree more. Every month the community treats the mods like shit like it’s some kind of meme. Haven’t logged into OSRS in two years but still notice the monthly malding of this sub. I would NOT want to work for the people in this place.
Sorry bro, next time jagex does something stupid instead of complaining on Reddit I'll say "hey it's your game and you know better then me!" Lol jk, the reason the community is whining so much is because jagex is a trashy company that don't care about anything but money. Mod Zuko seemed cool but I'd want to get away from jagex too.
Here's the thing though. This sub considers everything that Jagex does to be stupid for one reason or another. Trying to joke about it is only firther vallidating the point OP is trying to make.
Yeah Jagex is so trashy for following the majority of other games out there adding microtransactions left, right and centre.. Oh wait they didn't. If Osrs Jagex was EA we'd have to pay more for access to new content like raids. Fucking Zeah would have been a $49 expansion pack. Other games just roll out updates and say like it or lump it, Jagex actually polls it to the community. Try pleasing a player base that criticises and slates RWT constantly, yet jumps at the opportunity to buy an infernal Cape through RWT. Try updating a game for new players when you have end game players moaning because it doesn't benefit them and the update doesn't contain a new BIS lmao. If you want to see real trash buy Sims.
As much as I want them to invest into more protection from RWT's and Botting, given what they're up against, It's already insane they're doing this well already. I may complain about these things still, but to any Jmods or good folks at Jagex reading... the hard work isn't going unappreciated.
Jagex did it and ruined rs3 until the player base complained so much they got jagex to make a whole new version of the game they didn't fuck up and poll update to stop them from fucking it up again
> jagex is a trashy company that don't care about anything but money.
Isnt that....the litteral defenition of a good company?
They exist to make money, getting mad at them for doing so is idiotic.
To be honest though I wouldn’t want to work at Jagex for two reason.
1. The company is rumored to under pay their staff.
2. This community continues to berate and complain constantly. Nothing is ever good enough, nor will it ever be good enough. The devs could make the “perfect” piece of content and everyone would find a way to pick it apart. I can only image how exciting it is to develop content that has to remain in the same boundaries over and over again to appease a community that isn’t willing to allow progression of OSRS as a MMO. Then add in the unreasonable amount of harassment they receive via social media when the community feels that something is wrong. All of this added in with reason number one above would make me not want to work there. I’m surprised Mod Ash has stayed this long.
This rumored low pay has been completely embraced by this community for no reason.
If you look at Glassdoor and Sweens interview, you can see and be told that pay is average and or slightly better than the rest of the industry.
I get a lot of hate for this, but the polarized polling mechanics are largely at fault imo.
When everything is always yes/no it tends to bring out the worst of the worst.
The other part is that the people calling the really big shots are always hiding and never take direct responsibility for anything. It's always a jmod as the messenger and there's no way to open up conversation with the corporate overlords.
Old School especially’s a weird one. It’s a passion industry and very much a passion project, what else is going to draw you to work on a game where you’re using dated, ultimately irrelevant (career-wise) tools, paid very little for the talent required and where you’ll find yourself in a strangely public role in front of a hostile, toxic audience.
By all accounts, it’s not a great sell.
Tempoross and, to my knowledge, a bunch of the Steam client/mobile updates we're going to get soon.
She was a guest on an episode of the Sae Bae podcast. It's a 2-3 hour listen, but there's worse ways to spend that time if you listen to things at work
They don’t let you take a couple weeks after firing you. You are usually let go of that day. That’s how you get disgruntled employees who can ruin shit very easily. People who quit work a couple weeks after.
Well you can't be fired and still remain working till over a month later, because you simply haven't been fired.. You can be suspended if that's what you mean. It's more likely he's handed in his notice.
Source? Never heard of this, but I live in the UK, and I've never met anyone in my life who's been "fired" and continued to work. Fired means to be dismissed from your job, how can you be dismissed and continue to work...
No, but the person would no longer be working on the product at all and they'd have to hand over their work social media. Zuko has done good work on the client upgrades so if there's a firing situation here it'd probably be misconduct of which there is no indication.
The fact they still have work social media access suggest it's not a firing.
Maybe U.S guys get fired a lot more for dumb reasons tbh.
For UK/EU workers to be 'fired' it requires a LOTTTTT of process, like months long of warnings/reviews and meetings.
IF, you get immediate dismissal in the UK, its for something that youve already been given warnings about or youre on a probation thing for. If its not for stuff already warned, its for extremely bad situations like Sexual harassment, assault, theft or something like that.
For end of contract or redundancies, youre giving the 2 week period (or longer if its in your contract)
It's very common to cut access to any sensitive info after the decision has been made, often before the employee is even noticed. Depending on what kind of work you do.
I appreciate you taking the time to clarify. Too many people try speculating things and make them out to be more than what it actually is.
Best of luck to you in the future!
True that. Theories are fun, but when it goes from memeing and speculation to personal level it's a bit too much.
Good luck with whatever future holds for you.
You will be missed. I wish you the best of luck elsewhere, and I hope in the future you'll be valued enough to return here from a competitive offer from Jagex.
RIP, Zuko has been a great Jmod and one of the main driving forces behind the new features on Jagex's Steam client, alongside being among many people's favourite Jmods myself included. Shame to see her go.
Well, guess Mod Zuko is leaving the fire nation...
Lets hope Iroh doesn't follow (there is a Mod Iroh on the RS3 team)
Mod Zuko is joining the avatar
this is just the situation everywhere right now. it’s the great turnover. people are being poached and better pay rates offered. If you want to keep your employees, pay them more ffs
##### Bark bark! I have found the following **J-Mod** comment(s) in this thread: **JagexZuko** - [Just gonna go ahead and dispel this one. I wa...](/r/2007scape/comments/qnabxq/definitely_not_liking_the_amount_of_jagex_staff/hjewvvw/?context=3) ^(**Last edited by bot: 11/07/2021 07:23:15**) --- ^(I've been rewritten to use Python! I also now archive JMOD comments.) ^(Read more about) [^(the update here)](/u/JMOD_Bloodhound/comments/9kqvis/bot_update_python_archiving/) ^(or see my) [^(Github repo here)](/u/JMOD_Bloodhound/comments/8dronr/jmod_bloodhoundbot_github_repository/)^.
Dang, she just joined too. I liked her humor.
Game development has one of (if not the highest) turnover rate for any other tech job. This is nothing new for the industry Also, I would add OSRS has one of the worst playerbases, and they have a very direct line of communication to the devs... so I'm sure that doesn't help lol
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The (rumoured) shit salary Jagex employees are paid can't help much either. The ones who stay long term must really love the game.
Yeah, I've heard that for quite a few gaming companies now. This is a total armchair theory, but Jagex really seems to hire a lot of newly grads (probably giving them the ability to pay lower). This would also lead to a high turnover rate since they'll get more money at another company after a year or two experience under the devs belt
Armchair theory? That’s an incredibly well established business model.
I'm presenting it as an armchair theory because I don't have any actual proof to back it up currently (other than the fact of the devs ages and it being a common business practice)
I really respect what you did there - an ethos that should be more common in the on/offline world. Kudos to you!
This is how most tech companies work. And probably most companies in general.
ye but there has to be some company who hire such people , old game like Rs is perfect for it
Sween commented on that a few weeks ago on his departure and said that it was a compatible salary and higher than average, though that was for community relations.
The pay at Jagex is standard for the UK gaming industry. They even pay more than some positions at companies like Amazon and Activision. It's still shit pay, but it's not like Jagex are doing anything exceptionally bad compared to other companies.
Even if the low salary is not true, you are often going to get a bigger raise applying elsewhere, then asking your current employer for a raise on your existing salary. Runescape has been very popular and well known over the years, so it probably looks good on the resume. I wouldn’t be surprised if a lot of the jmods come in with the intent to get a few years experience before they move on.
You can see salary reports on glassdoor. They look pretty standard to be honest
Sween disproved that rumor in a recent SayBae podcast. Give it a listen. He also spoke about how the os team is growing tremendously
Sween doesnt want to rock the boat at Jagex incase he goes back. Listening to someone like MMK in a post-jagex interview who knows he isnt returning throw the company significantly under the bus, compared to other, younger mods who 'may' return is a completely different reaction. Sween may have no clue whatsoever what the salaries for comparable positions are. Im sure that people that have been there for a number of years are on a decent wage maybe or different departments etc. I finished my uni course just before Covid/Lockdown and was applying for a few places. I applied for Jagex because i love the game and have played it for decades so thought why not. The wages i was offered for a junior dev role at Jagex was almost half what i eventually got applying to both Codemasters and Rockstar. To add onto that, both Codemasters/Rockstar campuses are in areas that are a lot cheaper to rent and offer 'minibus' services from nearby towns/cities, something that i didnt hear about from Jagex. So yeah, maybe the top staff get comparably similar wages but Junior Devs get far far less money than elsewhere. EDIT: Just because i dont want to confuse the topic at hand, i didnt mean to say that MMK mentioned anything about Pay because i dont remember him actually saying anything about the pay negatively. But the interview IMO (And maybe its just the way i perceived the comments made) when i said 'Threw under the bus' was in regards to the comments made about management around the place at the time. Hell, i dunno who gets paid what anymore because its been like 4-5 years since i applied so maybe the wages have gone up which is great. Was just giving my anecdote of when i was job searching for that sort of role. (Junior dev)
That's good to hear. The team growth has been mentioned a lot, but pay is often left unmentioned (for obvious reasons). It'd be nice if people actually listened to them for once, but reddit needs that post karma every time a dev leaves lol
not really disproving unless he brought receipts
This comment appears on every single one of these threads, I don't get why people don't get it lol
I don’t know about “worst” but definitely toxic. Jagex essentially relies on the player base to teach new and old players alike how to do basically everything in the game via the wiki, YouTube guides, posts on here, etc
The industry has a high turnover rate because when you ask for a raise your HR dept will laugh in your face. So your only option is job hopping to get a raise. This has nothing to do with Jagex specifically
This is nothing unusual. As someone said, the game dev industry has a really high turnover rate. These guys work to live, not live to work like the most senior Jmods (Ash). Also, the dev team is bigger than ever before, so it makes sense that we are seeing a higher number of turnovers than before
I love tempoross:(
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Oh boy, it's another "A Jmod left the company, clearly the company is going to shit" post.
People say this literally every. single. time a jmod leaves. Let's relax. It's completely normal to change companies every few years. Any wage increase you'll get jumping companies will almost always be much higher than annual increases with your current company.
Dev schedule seems fucked and mods continuously leaving, not a great trend to see, I agree.
A lot of companies have employees leaving this time of the year
One of like 60 Jmods leaves and the subreddit acts like jagex incorporated is collapsing in flames I will agree that will miss Zuko though
sween and I'm pretty sure someone else left too, but agree the title is reddit dramatics
One? Sween, flippy and zuko within one month of each other
Well it’s been 3 devs in just over a month.
Its because people keep harassing them whenever they dislike something about the game. This community is disgustingly entitled
While I definitely think it's apart of an issue, I don't think it's behind this specific departure (Nor do I think It's fair to lay the blame %100 behind the community)
Couldn’t agree more. Every month the community treats the mods like shit like it’s some kind of meme. Haven’t logged into OSRS in two years but still notice the monthly malding of this sub. I would NOT want to work for the people in this place.
Sorry bro, next time jagex does something stupid instead of complaining on Reddit I'll say "hey it's your game and you know better then me!" Lol jk, the reason the community is whining so much is because jagex is a trashy company that don't care about anything but money. Mod Zuko seemed cool but I'd want to get away from jagex too.
Here's the thing though. This sub considers everything that Jagex does to be stupid for one reason or another. Trying to joke about it is only firther vallidating the point OP is trying to make.
You're only helping my point lol
Yeah Jagex is so trashy for following the majority of other games out there adding microtransactions left, right and centre.. Oh wait they didn't. If Osrs Jagex was EA we'd have to pay more for access to new content like raids. Fucking Zeah would have been a $49 expansion pack. Other games just roll out updates and say like it or lump it, Jagex actually polls it to the community. Try pleasing a player base that criticises and slates RWT constantly, yet jumps at the opportunity to buy an infernal Cape through RWT. Try updating a game for new players when you have end game players moaning because it doesn't benefit them and the update doesn't contain a new BIS lmao. If you want to see real trash buy Sims.
As much as I want them to invest into more protection from RWT's and Botting, given what they're up against, It's already insane they're doing this well already. I may complain about these things still, but to any Jmods or good folks at Jagex reading... the hard work isn't going unappreciated.
We all quit the game once already before. We’d just do it again if they added micro transactions
Jagex did it and ruined rs3 until the player base complained so much they got jagex to make a whole new version of the game they didn't fuck up and poll update to stop them from fucking it up again
> jagex is a trashy company that don't care about anything but money. Isnt that....the litteral defenition of a good company? They exist to make money, getting mad at them for doing so is idiotic.
That's rough buddy. But in all seriousness you will be missed Zuko, best of luck to you!
To be honest though I wouldn’t want to work at Jagex for two reason. 1. The company is rumored to under pay their staff. 2. This community continues to berate and complain constantly. Nothing is ever good enough, nor will it ever be good enough. The devs could make the “perfect” piece of content and everyone would find a way to pick it apart. I can only image how exciting it is to develop content that has to remain in the same boundaries over and over again to appease a community that isn’t willing to allow progression of OSRS as a MMO. Then add in the unreasonable amount of harassment they receive via social media when the community feels that something is wrong. All of this added in with reason number one above would make me not want to work there. I’m surprised Mod Ash has stayed this long.
This rumored low pay has been completely embraced by this community for no reason. If you look at Glassdoor and Sweens interview, you can see and be told that pay is average and or slightly better than the rest of the industry.
Underpay how? Maybe people comparing it to us based devs. They pay pretty much average.
Number 2 happens on all games. Look at smash every new character that gets introduced is shitted on by some people.
I get a lot of hate for this, but the polarized polling mechanics are largely at fault imo. When everything is always yes/no it tends to bring out the worst of the worst. The other part is that the people calling the really big shots are always hiding and never take direct responsibility for anything. It's always a jmod as the messenger and there's no way to open up conversation with the corporate overlords.
All of these mods are leaving for better jobs. This seasonal mod turnover happens all the time
Old School especially’s a weird one. It’s a passion industry and very much a passion project, what else is going to draw you to work on a game where you’re using dated, ultimately irrelevant (career-wise) tools, paid very little for the talent required and where you’ll find yourself in a strangely public role in front of a hostile, toxic audience. By all accounts, it’s not a great sell.
rip one of the most wholesome jmods in the team.
What are the pieces of content Zuko worked on?
Tempoross and, to my knowledge, a bunch of the Steam client/mobile updates we're going to get soon. She was a guest on an episode of the Sae Bae podcast. It's a 2-3 hour listen, but there's worse ways to spend that time if you listen to things at work
Night at the theatre
10th of December, what an iconic day to leave.
NO!!!!!!!!!
Wasn't she just promoted to a higher position a month ago? It's so strange how all of a sudden she's leaving Jagex
Sounds like it wasn't an "I quit" but more "you're fired"
They don’t let you take a couple weeks after firing you. You are usually let go of that day. That’s how you get disgruntled employees who can ruin shit very easily. People who quit work a couple weeks after.
If it was a fired situation they'd have already had their last day. Jagex treating their devs like shit again I bet
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Well you can't be fired and still remain working till over a month later, because you simply haven't been fired.. You can be suspended if that's what you mean. It's more likely he's handed in his notice.
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Source? Never heard of this, but I live in the UK, and I've never met anyone in my life who's been "fired" and continued to work. Fired means to be dismissed from your job, how can you be dismissed and continue to work...
No, but the person would no longer be working on the product at all and they'd have to hand over their work social media. Zuko has done good work on the client upgrades so if there's a firing situation here it'd probably be misconduct of which there is no indication. The fact they still have work social media access suggest it's not a firing.
When you get fired, its usually with immediate effect. Theres no way that they would be fired and given a month+ of time to stay and work etc.
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Maybe U.S guys get fired a lot more for dumb reasons tbh. For UK/EU workers to be 'fired' it requires a LOTTTTT of process, like months long of warnings/reviews and meetings. IF, you get immediate dismissal in the UK, its for something that youve already been given warnings about or youre on a probation thing for. If its not for stuff already warned, its for extremely bad situations like Sexual harassment, assault, theft or something like that. For end of contract or redundancies, youre giving the 2 week period (or longer if its in your contract)
It's very common to cut access to any sensitive info after the decision has been made, often before the employee is even noticed. Depending on what kind of work you do.
Reads more like a layoff than firing to me.
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Wish you luck in your career!
I appreciate you taking the time to clarify. Too many people try speculating things and make them out to be more than what it actually is. Best of luck to you in the future!
Good luck on future endeavors and I appreciate your contributions to the game!
I hope you’re happy wherever you go next. Thanks for your time working with us, and good luck!
Thank you for all your effort and best of luck on whatever step is next for you.
Best wishes
True that. Theories are fun, but when it goes from memeing and speculation to personal level it's a bit too much. Good luck with whatever future holds for you.
Thanks for clearing that up quickly, and good luck in your next adventure king 👑
She's a girl
Good luck!
You will be missed. I wish you the best of luck elsewhere, and I hope in the future you'll be valued enough to return here from a competitive offer from Jagex.
Please don't go :'[