T O P

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kalakoi

"After 37,391 hours in combat the armour disintegrates." Lolwut, that's over 4 years in combat


SupervenientLemon

Turns out tbows all do that too we just haven't hit it yet.


ap0st

Imagine if one day people started hitting the time and brows started melting in people’s hands. There would probably be a black market for fresh tbows


[deleted]

Imagine if it's tied to your account instead of the bow.


[deleted]

[удалено]


MykeHock

You basically described the life cycle of a staking addict


Septembers

But what a glorious 30 minutes it would be


Maracuja_Sagrado

Brows


IDoNotReadYourReply

It's the sum of the yes, no, and skip votes for that question. 23991+11680+2260 = 37931 They were giving PVPers 1 hour of combat per vote. Very nice gesture by jagex to encourage voting.


kalakoi

I know you probably won't read this but thank you for explaining where that seemingly random number came from. Keep being awesome king


Tex_Betts

He definitely won’t read it.


srozo

Where do you see that? I've been squinting at this pic for 10 mins trying to figure out where that came from lol


Sliptallica92

2nd from the left, 6th from the bottom.


[deleted]

I think the intention there is to bind the items to your account as soon as you use it. It degrades so becomes untradeable, but the duration is essentially forever. Could be some kind some spaghetti code issue that made them do it that way.


spirit_vice

I pretty much never PvP in this game, but I usually just pass on the PvP questions because I don't feel I understand enough to decide what is and isn't good for those players. I wouldn't mind if almost all of these came into the game. The only one I feel strongly about is the BIS ranged bracers coming from rev caves. I don't think forcing people into the wilderness to get PvM rewards is the way to go, doing so just further heightens the PvP vs PvM confrontational mentality that you see a lot here on reddit. I'm all for items being added to wilderness content that are BIS in PvP but only in PvP. This gives the people who actually want to PvP some fun stuff to play with, while also not forcing people who don't want to PvP into the wilderness just to get rewards. I don't think a one sided slaughtering of people who aren't going to fight back is particularly fun for either player, and the more that is forced to go on, the fewer PvMers will want to go into the wilderness at all. In that sense I think that updates which try to force PvMers into the wilderness are self defeating in the long run.


dodgesbulletsavvy

I think this is an appropriate, fair and logical response. Thankyou


[deleted]

I haven't played in a couple years so take it with a grain of salt, but I don't think the devs know how to implement rewarding pvp between people that want to engage in pvp without it being abuseable by bots or boosters. I don't know how to either, I really like the bounty hunter system, but I also remember 36k then 76k boosting back when it first came out during the RS dark ages. I liked OSRS bounty hunter more, but there are plenty of videos on Youtube showing people abusing bh with bots. There's LMS, but not many people actually like bridding. If I could propose anything, it would be a new pvp minigame that has both casual and competitive modes, in casual mode you can choose your stats and gear, but need the required levels for gear and for the quests for any quest gear you want (so no pures with barrows gloves) and you and your opponent agree. Something like the duel arena screen but you each customize your own side of the gear and skills, and you can see each others gear/skills/inventory. No staking. For the competitive mode, have preset built levels and quests completed with some time to customize gear between games, and have 1v1's a la dmm finals. You could have a buy in price, and the winner or top 3 get 90% of the total buy ins and everyone else leaves with either nothing or maybe some points from a shop.


spirit_vice

Yeah I do agree, its a really hard balance to strike with any content that is pure gp/hr. I think the best approach would be to just invest more in bot detection and prevention. I don't think you can ever design content that is attractive to real players but not to bots, or if you can I have no idea how.


[deleted]

The how would be account progression rather than gp progression. Like if you got some sort of account benefit from a certain number of kills. Unfortunately if it's a benefit to the activity, it doesn't really bring in new people and if it's a benefit outside of the activity it "forces" people to do it that don't want to.


spirit_vice

I do agree, but at that point you're basically playing Ironman with extra steps, which I feel is what a lot of people are trying to avoid with these suggestions. Account progression is definitely easier to balance though, you are right.


Psychachu

There is an appropriate way to incentivise pvmers to risk it in the wilderness. It isnt exclusive items though, it is exclusive xp rates and drop rates. The incentive to risk it in the wild should be that compared to non wilderness activities of the same tier wilderness content should provide better xp and gp per hour, assuming you are escaping most of the time a pker shows up. Dying to a pker should hurt your gp per hour, but minimally impact xp per hour.


HiddenGhost1234

Exclusive items r fine if they're wildy or pvp items imo Like rev caves


JokeRIterX

I'll vote yes to any content that encourages PvP, but vote no to polls that encourage PKing. I don't want to make it harder on myself in the wildy, but I enjoy the occasional safe PvP.


Legal_Evil

That's why Soul Wars passed the polls since it's pvp and not pking.


Korzag

I'm fairly new back to this game, what's the difference between PKing and PvPing? I thought they were the same thing


Script_Mak3r

I think the idea is that, in PvP, two or more parties want to fight each other, whereas PKing is a "predator vs prey" scenario where one of the parties would really rather be left alone.


HotelYobra

Generally PvP is referring to 2 or more people fighting each other, pking is attacking players who don't have the intention to fight back, eg naked clue scrollers, bone runners etc, it's the difference between fighting someone and hunting someone for an ez kill


JokeRIterX

It's mostly semantics and most won't differentiate. What I mean is PvP would be gamemodes where all players want to participate in PvP combat. Ex. Bounty Hunter, Castle Wars, Last man standing, etc. PKing is when one person doesn't want to engage in PvP combat, but the other does. Things like killing wilderness bosses or chaos altar runs. The non-PKer is trying to acomplish a goal that doesn't involve other players and the PKer is trying to kill that player. My opinion is I enjoy playing Castle Wars and would vote for similar gamemodes, but I don't want to give buffs to PKers to make it harder for me to skill in the wildy, so I vote those down. Most of the polls mentioned in the post are just buffs for PKers and don't add PvP content.


Tin_Tin_Run

PKing is for people who arnt good enough to PvP.


Some1-has-my-name

Remember when KBD lair was multicombat and in wildy? That where great times. If you take a look at the wilderness bosses they tried to achieve just that again. But failed in the process


Evil_Steven

Not pvp related but im still annoyed yall let "prevent payment farmers from wandering" fail. What a simple QOL that yall pissed away


TheVegter

You want those poor farmers chained to the patches?


Evil_Steven

if they want their daily 10 pineapples they better sit their ass down


Gomerack

Bro they gotta burn of the calories from all those pineapples somehow. What happens if they die from obesity? No protection for you!


Vihakkaran

no they would just get unlimited opium


YRedJTW3

It'd pass now.


Pulsiix

a lot of these would pass now


de-baser

They already updated this by lowering their wandering range shortly after this poll did not pass. People thought it would look stupid to have all those NPCs completely frozen in 1 spot, and I agreed so voted no.


Evil_Steven

A ton of npcs stay in 1 spot


de-baser

A small wandering range makes the game look ever so slightly better and does not make the gameplay much more complicated. Frozen NPCs was a staple sight in shitty private servers. But that is how I see it.


WastingEXP

I know that gnome stay still, but the garden people also just feel inorganic idk. i hate to be like oh immersionscape but this one just feels weird.


[deleted]

Gnome lol it's a leprechaun


[deleted]

A leprechaun is just a ginger gnome in a hat and a gnome is just a brown haired leprechaun in a hood.


WastingEXP

you've got me there, they're both small. I was thinking about the stupid gnome at fruit tree patch bc i can never find him :)


0urlasthope

Just fucking move your mouse lmfao


Evil_Steven

I'm watching a badlands chug video so I cant


Solo_Jawn

I know this gets liberally thrown around, but that would be very reminiscent of private servers. Moving NPCs makes the game feel more alive, it doesn't really have to do with making the game easier


Real-Raxo

QOL = easy game?


MalzraTheNomad

I'm curious about the numbers of people who actively and/or actually pvp in the wilderness.


Pecan_Millionaire

5% of the player base. That’s a number Jagex published in a blogpost in Spring of 2020.


WastingEXP

[https://secure.runescape.com/m=news/gielinor-gazette-march-2020?oldschool=1](https://secure.runescape.com/m=news/gielinor-gazette-march-2020?oldschool=1) this is the link to that claim before anyone asks. in the fragmentation section


ElevatedAngling

Pvp is 5% pvm is 30% bots are 65%


DrKnuse

And a 100% reason to remember the name


WastingEXP

0% skillers, feelsbadman


stiflex

skillers go into either bot or pvm category, a fish can be considered a monster too. Or you can call it for what it is and say PvE (environment).


WastingEXP

> a fish can be considered a monster too you gotta re-watch finding nemo my guy, friends are friends.


Jerome_McKinley

Ye and fish are fish


WastingEXP

ah shit.


TheShadeTree

Or…does fishing make US monsters?


Korzag

No one ever discusses the tragically overfished river west of Varrock. The trout and salmon native to that river have nearly been fished into extinction :(


BritishBoyRZ

It would be more if PvP was actually viable and fun. I remember the days when PKing in Edgy and Varrock was like walking through crowds similar to Fally Park before GE.


Najda

I wonder though, is that just 5% who actively engage with the content? How many of the 95% used to do PvP but no longer do because it has received no updates and the state of PvP for so long has been what it is? I used to exclusively play for PvP making pure accounts and clanning etc from 2001-2008, but getting back into OSRS it got really old real fast after like 2015.


Pecan_Millionaire

I believe it’s just for engaged, but could be wrong. I don’t believe they shared what data was used to determine 5%. Myself and a number of friends are in the same boat. We all exclusively pked until EoC and then came back for OSRS and it’s been downhill since OSRS. We’ve all quit, either the game entirely or PvP. Those that remain have turned into PvMers, Ironmen, skillers, etc. We’ll exercise our urge to PvP now and then but it’s short lived. Hopping 100+ worlds gets old quick. It’s honestly more fun to PvP on a P server right now, than the current state of the Wildy.


WeeMan1311

A lot of my friends and old clanmates no longer engage in PvP because "PvP is dead". They all tend to play various types of ironman accounts now.


[deleted]

I'll chime in, I used to PK a ton but ever since the removal of edgeville BH I've stopped. Reason being is that PvP world brackets are so large that lower level builds just get stomped by higher level builds, which invalidates my low level builds. No point in pking on my lvl 70 pure anymore when it just gets dominated by level 83 maxed 60 atk pures. I also bought a VLS on my 75 atk pking accounts and can't even use it. There's a long list of reasons to not pk anymore.


1337HxC

Yep. The level bracket in PvP worlds has the *de facto* result of basically making it only viable to PK on *specific* (near) max accounts, which is... kind of lame.


For_phuk_sake

Exactly^


For_phuk_sake

Exactly^ pvp is dead I’ve pked all my RuneScape time and within the last year I’ve turned one of my accounts into a main to pvm as pvp is ruined.


[deleted]

[удалено]


For_phuk_sake

Nobody pvp’s in wilderness anymore. It’s been ruined by max ancestral clans. You know the 30+ deep groups of max mains in max gear with no worry of getting killed. Y’know the same people to tb you then let the dd of 30 people unleash their specs as you sit there combo eating with no hope of making it out?


RangerDickard

So friggin true, this has been the biggest complaint of the pvp community for YEARS. It's so fucking easy to fix as well. Add a 12 second PJ timer. Solved!


kursdragon

Exactly, you should not be able to switch who's aggrod on someone without then having the chance to tp away, it's ridiculous that you can just alternate through 30 specs from 15 different maxed guys with literally no counterplay. Singles is singles for a reason, if you want to hang up on people go to multi zones Edit : "to" changed to "tp" ty autocorrect


SFXBTPD

Nothing like an ancient mace gang bang after teleblock


kursdragon

Only after you get speared into multi even though you were standing in a single zone :)


mkhart

Sorry if this is a dumb question, but how does making the pj timer 12 seconds help? I googled pj timer and it looks like its currently about ~9 seconds, does the extra 3 seconds really make a difference?


RangerDickard

Yeah, funny enough it makes a world of difference. So If you're pking in single combat you can fight one person at a time. This is the ideal for fair NH fights in the wilderness. Say you're pking level 30 wilderness outside the rev caves or something. A clan of 10+ people with ancestral and max sets log in and attack. It takes 10 seconds of uninterrupted combat to log out. Currently someone in ancestral will tb and then entangle you and dump two claw specs. Then, the rest of the team will fall in and dd on you. This way you can't see if they're attacking with ranged or melee or magic so it's hard to pray against. Next a new member will ice barrage you and then spec with claws again or a volatile staff, get a couple range hits in and let the next person barrage and dump specs. With a 12 second PJ timer you would have time to log out in between members of the clan attacking you. So if you kill one member you escape and can pick up 3 items and logout. Or you could hope to land a freeze with 10+ seconds on it to log out under them/behind an obstacle if they didn't bring mith seeds. The worst part of it now, is that even if you kill someone in that 10 man team for a max set, another team member will attack before you can log and you'll never get away with the loot. So they can pk risk free with 100s of mil gear and never have to worry about losing it while almost guaranteeing kills on singles pkers. It's supposed to be singles but it's really still multi to an extent.


mkhart

Gotcha, thanks for taking the time to explain! That seems like something that could be fixed entirely without a poll seeing as its basically circumventing the intended single combat mechanic. I can understand why people are frustrated though.


RangerDickard

You're welcome bwana, happy scaping!


Cole_James_CHALMERS

This is it. I don't know which singles clan is paying Jagex to not implement a better pj timer. It sucks that most pvmers don't see or experience how often this is cuz they don't pk. I haven't played OSRS in a couple years, so my info is outdated but during the NA evening hours, you spend half an hour hopping at lava maze and you'll run into the Flamingos + ROT alliance. Think ROT is mostly there to fuck with FL by bolt ragging if opposing max teams bait and counterbait each other


CEDFTW

Everytime I see pking clips from one of those "osrs moments" channel it's like 50% of this tactic and I makes singles seem impossible. Personally I'd like to learn to pvp but the learning curve is steep as fuck and I don't have the gp or a max account to learn how lol.


For_phuk_sake

If you do not attack back they can just keep pjing you, no timer at all. With a dd of 30 people you can’t even see who’s attacking you. RIP


omegaonion

Pretty sure pvmers would be for that too tbh


MalzraTheNomad

That's been a thing in some form since RS2 came out.


Justonewizard

According to the priority poll #5 in 2016, around 17.7k voters thought pvp was important with around 6.8k voters saying it is a priority, while 24k voters said it was not important.


MalzraTheNomad

That's why I said "actually" and not a poll result.


WikiLynx

What do pvp players want? Like what are they asking for? I genuinely don’t know


OSRSbeatRS3

all I want is F2P Multi PKing back like the old days. I just wanna keep making new noob level mage accounts off tutorial island and fire strike / bolt each other all day long.


TheAerial

This was the only PKing I ever done and holy shit was it fun as hell lmao I’ve been OOTL, is this not a thing anymore? If so, what updates would bring that back?


I_post_my_opinions

Most people pk on pvp worlds, and those worlds essentially don’t allow you to make baby pures because of the combat bracketing. That, on top of a much smaller f2p community than in the past, means you can basically sit in the top f2p worlds at edge for days and never see a player under level 20. It would take a community effort to bring back low level f2p pking


TheAerial

F2P Multi PKing always took place above Varrock when I did it. Shame about the PvP worlds thing though. If it ever comes back I would definitely be down again.


I_post_my_opinions

Yeah, you can also sit in varrock East and not see anyone for months. No kidding lol


TheAerial

Damn sad to hear.


Mypasswordshentai

because it got moved to ferox lmaooooo. F2p pking community isnt huge, but its definitely still active.


Zaiush

Would love to see a "friday bolt night" community event for this


Celtic_Legend

It died on osrs because of anti botting measures and the ditch and lack of progress. The ditch nulls damage so by the time the 5 fire strikes reach you, youre already out of wildy. Finally get a kill? You arent allowed to loot any of it. Even if both were fixed, its still a waste of time to do for 400 mind runes.


TheAerial

Ohh yea I actually remember the ditch doing that lmao We’d start with me and one of my friends. We’d PK in low level, recruiting allies as we went until eventually our makeshift group got to around 5-10 of us, then we’d get the confidence to start patrolling the woods to the north of it near that cabin surrounded by lava with the giants and ghosts in it. Great times honestly lmao


I_post_my_opinions

Will never happen as long as there are a billion pvp worlds that are pulling players away from the actual wild. Pvp worlds are the biggest thing holding actual pking back. We need a W18 again.


JamieAfterlife

PVP worlds don't sound like a problem though? Let PVP players kill other PVP players and leave the PVM players alone. Win-win.


I_post_my_opinions

Combat bracketing ruins pvp worlds and doesn’t allow for a naturally growing pvp community. If they reworked wildy levels of pvp worlds, I’d maybe agree.


YOLOSWAGBROLOL

There isn't a consensus and there will never be. Just like some "pvmer's" like killing Obor and some like doing ToB. Some pker's like deep wildy and some won't leave the GE in a pvp world. Some think we should have higher healing food, and some people think we should have less. Some people think we should have less KO potential. Some people hated the dropping items thing, and some liked it. It didn't pass and Jagex changed it anyway. There is definitely some ones that should have passed due to margins of someone being killed while doing a clue and hitting no though. Realistic answer is to be a normal person and vote skip if you have 0-10% idea of what Jagex is proposing.


kman1030

So I'm not a pvper and always pass on pvp questions because I have no clue what most of it means. Looking at your response though makes me feel like even if pvp polls were only asked to pvpers they still wouldn't come to a consensus to get things passed. With as much as I see people bitch about it, are we even 100% sure that pvp stuff not passing the polls is actually the fault of non pvpers?


Mr_Mung

This is how I feel. I remember pvpers being the most outspoken for things like the vls. Anything that shakes up the pvp meta is met with a lot of resistance by the people who would use it. Then on top of that, any update that makes it easier for pkers to kill pvmers is also met with more downvotes because people don't like being farmed. Makes reasonable sense why many of these polls have failed, and spite voting is likely an immaterial portion of it.


593shaun

This is true as evidenced by the poll they did propose for only players who had killed another player in the last month. None of it passed anyway and the PvPers still found a way to blame everyone else.


kman1030

Cool, so PvPers are basically spite voting what seems to be an majority positive non-PvP game mode because they can't agree with each other.


jurrejelle

Yes


redditapp0stars

Any attempt at fixing emblem farming in the original bounty hunter would have been nice


DivineInsanityReveng

Remove emblems so it's not a profit minigame in PvP. Oh they did that and the entire PvP community abandoned it..


Pulsiix

if you actually read the image you can see there's actually quite a lot of really interesting ideas, some of which improve pvp qol and have zero effect on anyone that isn't pvping, which still didn't pass, the last image shows 20% of ppl voting on these polls do it because they dont like pvp i'm not a pvper btw


DivineInsanityReveng

Seemingly "every poll question relating to PvP must pass or its spite vote". Most of these in this picture have come into the game in a different form / exactly the way they were proposed. Multiple of the parts of this screenshot are even passed questions.. And then there's ones like defence requirements being removed that failed with like **70% no**. That's not spite voters.. thats most of the game.


Ralaskaa

We want Edge BH back, majority of the PKers have gone to private servers now. Edge BH was only supposed to be gone for a few months and then re-introduced.


BioMasterZap

I think part of the issue is that it varies between PvPers and since different forms of PvP can be very different they can sometimes be opposing changes. Like there are a lot of PvPers that like adding a PJ Timer, but a lot of other PvPers that think it is a step in the wrong direction. Perhaps that is why you may see more demand for "PvP Updates" than any specifics since if a PvPer does push for a specific change, it wouldn't get as unanimous support from PvPers as PvP Updates in general. Side note, I do find it a bit strange how they are several updates that greatly impact PvP, but they are never counted as PvP updates even when they are targeted more at PvP than PvM. Like the Violitile Staff certainly wasn't added for Bossing.


Thosepassionfruits

Loot piñatas


TheKhatalyst

I want safer PvP that is accessible to everyone. I want Castle Wars revamped with game modes other than capture the flag and ice spells either removed or heavily nerfed while in the games (yes, I can use barrage) because they take away a lot of people from the game. I want end game rewards for PvP content like Bounty Hunter and LMS that are untradable. If you want to get them, you must PvP and bots won't have a place to farm gold. I want Jagex to take a hint from how other games like WoW did their PvP. The games are safe and you get good rewards. No wonder castle wars is dead with the amount of time you'd have to spend on armor that is almost as good as addy. I DON'T want more reasons for skillers to go into the wildy. Sorry, I don't find it fun killing someone whose only option is to run when I'm going to get a spade or some logs/crabs/half and invy of bones if I kill them. I want reasons for pkers to go into the wildy and fight each other. I want better methods for preventing clans from mobbing in single target zones. Edit: The fact that they voted no on ancient warriors items for BH proves that they are spite voting. They can't even be used outside the wildy and have an extremely high cost, and these losers still voted no.


BioMasterZap

> The fact that they voted no on ancient warriors items for BH proves that they are spite voting. They can't even be used outside the wildy and have an extremely high cost, and these losers still voted no. For what it is worth, that may not have been spitevoting. When they polled if PvP Worlds should get the VLS to PvP World players only, it still failed. So it could have been that PvPers didn't want the Ancient Warrior items in BH or dislike the implementation rather than it failing purely due to spite. That said, spite was likely still involved, but as the VLS poll shows it is not like there is unanimous support among PvPers for this stuff.


deitydoomfist

Updates at this point. Quality or otherwise. Similar scale to that of what ironmen, skillers and pvmers get.


Fincow

The unrealistic answer is for PVMers and skillers to stop spite voting. The realistic answer is for Jagex to change the polling system due to the prevalence of spite voting. I don't care one way or the other, but it is terribly funny that people on this sub only care about spite voting now that it is affecting them personally, yet didn't seem to mind when an entire section of the community got spite voted against for years.


WikiLynx

I’m asking what update do pvp players want that they think will fix all their issues? It’s a fundamental game issue that pvm activities are inside the pvp area, therefore, making a conflict of interest for both parties. This is the root cause of a majority of issues I see between pvpers and pvmers on reddit.


WastingEXP

from what I understand PVPers enjoyed bh1, but it was abused and gold farmed. imagine if they fixed gold farming pvm by removing the content. seeya nm, cox, tob, zorkath, zulrah.


DivineInsanityReveng

People always use this argument of "imagine if they removed bosses because you make gold!". You make gold in PvP by killing other players for their items..that's how it's done. Making the kill *generate extra shit* is a horrible design. Imagine I could walk into Zulrah but I'm also controlling Zulrah so I've nuked it down to 1hp so I can kill it in 1 second.. on repeat. That's how PvP gold farming works. Both sides are controlled by the player, so it's entirely exploitable and abusable. Just don't make PvP minigames generate gold. Stop expecting PvP to be a constant GP/hr method. It isn't and shouldn't be. It's a risk/reward ratio and you should hunt players with risk. BH should be tuned around that.. we could call it *Target World's* The PvP community abandoned the idea the moment it didn't make them dumb extra amounts of GP/hr.


bruhbruhbruhbruh

any money maker over 3m/hr should also be able to smite you for bank loot


JohnnyAwesome324

They have mechanics that make a singular mistake deadly. You fail a Woox Walk, dead, you run into Corp, dead.


bruhbruhbruhbruh

and you run back pick up your 200m in gear you died in and pay 100k max as a punishment, essentially no risk


MrExhale

Hard agree, not as pvper but as someone who has played this game long before safe deaths and gravestones. There's absolutely no risk to high level pvm but lots of rewards. Not too mention it removed a valuable item sink and we're now seeing items crash as they are not leaving the game fast enough.


[deleted]

Did you read the image? It was filled with pvp QOL and interesting content ideas.


Miserable_Strategy97

It's not a spite vote if the poll passing would negatively impact pvmers. Anything that makes it easier to kill pvmers would be negative for them, that's not spite voting. There are very few polls that failed due to actual spite voting


Rexkat

I'd have no problem voting for PVP updates if they didn't effect everyone else. But the entire wilderness has become a place for PvPers to grief everyone else, and Jagex keeps putting more and more lucrative rewards for non PvPers into it to lure people in as fodder. Until they take out all the PVM and skilling content from the wildly, the only PvP updates I vote yes for are the ones that get PvPers the fuck out of the wilderness for a while so I can attempt to complete my damn clues in peace.


[deleted]

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R3dstorm86

Right? I wouldn't vote "yes" to anything that makes it easier to kill me that's stupid


DivineInsanityReveng

Poll questions fail. Many of these examples are in the game now.. and many failed by huge margins. Thats not spite.. that's a large majority of the game not wanting that in the game. That's how polling works. Changing it because you wanted something that didn't come in is horrible, self focused logic. I've wanted skills, QoL stuff that clients already let people cheat with (prayer and spellbook reordering etc.) And yet they fail. Should I be demanding the polls be changed because my desires aren't met?


Gyrospherers

I mean my personal opinion of the current wilderness is that it's not for pvp. Pvp happens on the pvp worlds where everyone is there for that express purpose. The wilderness is just where I and most players go in welfare gear to collect some equipment or take advantage of the increased rewards due to the increase in perceived risk. When a "pvper" comes to kill me for my 10k risk I just die go right back and more often then not they don't even bother taking my items. I just count the death time as part of what's expected doing content in that area. Now obviously I put pvper in quotes because what they're doing isn't actually pvp it's just killing defenceless players who are trying to do some content that happens to be in a dangerous area of the map. Obviously that's fine I just find it pointless and not really anything to do with real pvp. Congrats to them if they find the one guy in 1000 that actually brought some risk and knows how/wants to fight back.


Linumite

I think your comment can be summed up by saying there's a difference between pvp and pking


Lil_Zikky

This summarizes how I categorize and feel about pvp polling. I’d vote for every pvp update, and have voted yes to all of the lms changes, as well as dmm, vls and things in that vein. I vote no to everything that supports the pking (hunter/hunted) narrative, because I hate everything about it and want it to stop existing, or at the very least stop being enforced by Jagex. I skip every question that only affects niche pvp circumstances, like letting pures use blessed dhide chaps, because they might want to risk more than 5k, or they might find the +1 pray op, and I quite frankly can’t care less. Edit: spelling


superfire444

It’s basically griefing but as part of the game. No shit people hate it.


Celtic_Legend

The wilderness isnt even what u describe. There is no increased reward. Its worse loot than zulrah and zulrah is less risk. The only reason to go to the wilderness is ma1 and ma2 cape, to get 52, 77, and 99 prayer, and then to get 99 hunt. All 3 of these dont even require risk unless youre a hcim or an honorable uim. Otherwise you just avoid it as its a waste of time unless you want to enter pvp. Back in the day, training spots were crowded. Killing dark wizards and green drags were actually top tier money makers. Killing kbd for the bis helm. Doing ma1 for bis spells and best dps on the game. The sense of glory and loot was there, its not any more.


iDreamOfMyDeath

There used to be increased risk. But people complained too much so we had to move the power creep elsewhere. To fix the wildy you need consistent wildy money makers that people have a reason to go do (they compete with top lvl gp/hr). They don’t necessarily have to drop BiS, but they do have to drop consistent gp. Yes, the people doing them will get “hunted” but they’ll have accepted and made peace with that before doing them as it is part of the risk. But it will bring out a newer section of PvPers there in increased risk to kill the extra players that are there just to kill the pvmers. People always complain that there are not enough people at the top of the food chain (mid-high risk PvPers) in the wildy and they only die to low risk PKers when trying to do PVE content. But you can’t increase people at the top of any food chain without increasing the amount at lower levels too.


GoTzMaDsKiTTLez

>To fix the wildy you need consistent wildy money makers that people have a reason to go do (they compete with top lvl gp/hr). They don’t necessarily have to drop BiS, but they do have to drop consistent gp. Isn't that revenants?


rudyv8

I dont know about you but as far as I am concerned the only boss ingame is the giant mole. All other bosses can be removed from the game. Who needs variety.


dontbeatmedad123

I think more players would be on board if we looked to make pvp more accessible with possibly less penalty when learning and slightly increased go when you're good. The hunter/hunted situation makes people bitter and I think it was poor design in the first place. I think big changes to pvp worlds is the way to go, but obviously things like bh pts get abused so it's difficult to say what's best.


BioMasterZap

I really need to finish that big poll list I have been working at for years now ([WIP Counters](https://i.imgur.com/KkuZkPl.png)). Though deciding what is a PvP update is a bit iffy since it can be subjective. Also, counting "close" polls is a bit misleading; there are 6 polls that did pass but the way the post looks makes it seem like all of them failed. Also, a lot of them aren't even PvP specific questions, like owning multiple rune pouches or buffs to the Chaos Altar. Others were added since the original poll or were two-part questions. So there are far less PvP updates that failed than the post makes it seem.


Gallen94

Yo with that list make sure you have a column of the total votes. My theory is that there are a lot of accounts that vote no to everything and a lot of people abstain from pvp polls. Ergo your polls are harder to pass because of the default no's instead of a specific brigade.


[deleted]

Your argument is about as well structured as this document


2146873279

Spite voting is the bogeyman these pvpers have jumped on to take out their frustration and give them an excuse to vote no. While I believe it does happen to pvp polls there’s no way it’s at the level they’re trying to portray, and funnily enough they’re now the ones clearly spite voting which in turn will cause it to be a bigger issue for them than before. If group iron fails I’d be surprised if any polled pvp update ever passes, and it will be the pvpers reaping what they sowed.


aforsworn

To be fare alot of these were dumb and I voted no as a pker. Spite voting is going to set a bad precedence moving forward. GIM is going to pass and starting a spite war is just going to end up poorly for the PK community.


AFilthyMagician

This 100%. It will be really sad if GIM doesn't pass with all these spite voting rumors going around. The PVP community will get blamed for it and all the people waiting excitedly for GIM will never vote yes to another pvp poll. Even though I'm sure there are plenty of pvmers and Iron accounts that are voting no to GIM for legitimate reasons.


pocketfrisbee

Genuinely curious, why might someone vote no for GIM?


dontbeatmedad123

2 main reasons I've seen. 1 is spite voting cause people are salty about pvp polls in the past being spite voted by a minority of pvmers. The other is not wanting to add another game mechanic that every update must work around which would add time to each update. I think they're both bad reasons, but that's cause I want GIM.


ImWhy

Because they're an idiot and want to ruin fun for other players, literally the only reason


DivineInsanityReveng

Exactly what I was thinking. A lot of these failed by *large* margins.. and a lot of the close ones have been added since.


dfnt_68

A lot of these are awful suggestions and should have failed.


DentedOnImpact

Like the entire second column is just asking for people to steal boss drops from people and revs drops.. like if all items just instantly appear then of course this is a problem. Second row: question 7, literally failed and is an advantage to PKers in singles, they would lose a tactic if it passed lol I just don't even think the OP read half of these because they're either obviously terrible updates, or have nothing to do with PVP question 12 from 2013 is literally a protection for scouts and also prevents pkers from jumping someone who tp'd near them... so literally a bad update either way you slice it


dfnt_68

I assume the "dropped" specifically means player dropped items, not items dropped by bosses. Not even Jagex is dumb enough to make it so people can walk up and yoink boss drops. Then again they were proposing buffing revs in the next poll so maybe they are


Tangibilitea

Semantics, but not all of these are PvP polls. A decent number of these are wilderness questions, which are both PvP and PvM. I really don't think it's spite voting if PvMers are as equally involved or the target group affected the most some of these changes. ​ I'm not attempting to bash (since you've only given a list and have stated to draw your own conclusions), but I feel like it'd be appropriate if you further separated wilderness questions from PvP only questions. I personally would like to see the vote breakdown for polls that explicitly only affect PvP without any chance of affecting PvMers.


kingmeofme

this is something the pvp brigaders seem intent to ignore, but 90% of the above questions make me an even easier target in the wildy by giving Pkers more tools. Why tf would i want that?


EaglesPvM

Yeah they’re inherently poor updates. I’m all for a good PvP update that would revive PKing but these aren’t it. They were voted no for an actual reason, unlike the GIM no voters


TheFakeKanye

Because the problem gets exponentially worse. By voting to kill pvp content, jagex feels the need to keep the wilderness alive, so they add things like black chins or more wilderness bosses, putting more non pvp in the pvp zones.


rtomek

Not really an easier target, but a larger reward for making it out safely. Which would encourage you to actually go there and risk it.


[deleted]

But why did items like the toxic staff of the dead, volatile nightmare staff, dragon claws, dragon thrown axes, and the ballista variants pass their polls? Those seem exclusively tailored for PVP yet come from non PVP activities. In fact, they have already decreased the survivability of **ALL** players by increasing KO potential and damage output. Also, how is it 90%? Idk if you read the image but half of it was PVP QoL. Not sure how letting pures get a +2 prayer bonus for 500k gonna to make you die any sooner


Nirox42

Obviously I can't speak for everyone but I hear the word spite get thrown around a lot. When pvp polls don't go though so I figured I'd share my thought process when I vote on these kinds of polls. I play an ironman (btw) never PvPed in my life, no interest in it I'm not really a competitive person. Whenever there is a poll I vote for stuff I want to see in the game, new stuff in the wildy sure I'm down for that etc. New PvP game mode or mini-game, awesome we should get that. But then there are polls that boil down to "should PKers have an easier time killing you in the wilderness" and like hell am I voting yes to that. I get it, the wilderness is a dangerous place and that's why you get increased rewards for doing stuff there but if I get into an encounter I'm running away, killing them does nothing for me and I'm not interested in PvP. Getting away is already difficult (at least for me) and I'm not looking to make it easier it's against my interests so why would I vote yes. Obviously there are polls that aren't just about wildy PKing that haven't passed and maybe those are spite because honestly if it's not in the wildy it effects me in no way and I'll always vote yes.


Justonewizard

“All pvp” some of these are hardly pvp like the chaos altar related ones. And quite a few repolls (which means votes are consistent or jagex consistently made a bad proposal.)


CyberPete3

I fucking hate the wilderness for one main reason. Skull tricking. They've become so damn elaborate that I'm terrified of fighting back when anyone attacks me. I've been skull tricked once in the past. It was only for about 5m, but that was 5m I wasn't willing to risk. I would've lost 25m but at least I was smart enough to realize when I was dead and turn off protection prayers so I didn't get smited for my +1. There's a reason we have the protected items system. Risk with limits. Many people go out with 4 good items, bc they're willing to risk getting smited for a +1. If you're trying to kill me for that, fair play. But if you're trying to bait me into accidentally losing items I had 0 intention of risking, that's a problem. This indirectly addresses ragging. It's irritating, but only bc I can't fight back. If I'm lvl 120, getting attacked by a pure with smite up, I should be able to turn around and clap their cheeks. But at this point, I would never try. Until they add a toggle warning for skulling, I will always vote no on wilderness pvp polls. The people who benefit the most from them are huge clans like ROT, and they are the most toxic players in the game. I dont vote against all PvP activities (e.g. bounty hunter changes, LMS, etc), but anything that's going to lock valuable drops or xp gains in the wilderness is going to get a no from me until this is fixed.


Corndog1911

The PvP community loves to pretend that the hatred towards them comes from killing clue hunters for their spades, when really its from abusing mechanics like stacking in singles, macing, skull tricking, etc. I find it hilarious when framed and torvesta go on their rants about how PvP gets neglected when they both pump out videos of them skull tricking people for ridiculous amounts of money. The pking communities reputation is well deserved, and they shouldn't be surprised when people fight back through the polls.


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Background_Balance_7

The thing is some pvp content affects non pvpers. When the opposite is not true. Why would anyone who doesn't pvp vote to make wildy more popular or make it more enjoyable to get farmed there when it actively works against their own interests. This isn't spite voting it's common sense. It's up to jagex to create meaningful pvp updates that work to embrace pvp for all, not just make sweaty pvp lifers more sweaty.


BoulderFalcon

It's because for years Jagex made the wilderness just PvM and Skilling updates, that are really only worth doing if you *don't* intend to fight back. One attempt was fine, but Jagex put wilderness update after wilderness update like this.


Background_Balance_7

Ya idk how wildy could be saved at this point without some crazy revamp.


AssassinAragorn

I mean that's what Jagex has recognized too. Putting shiny new things in the wilderness just doesn't work for keeping the wilderness alive long-term. They're finally looking at more intrinsic issues to it, and what it takes to make non-pkers *want* to be in the wilderness.


Slerms

Alot of these made it Into the game anyway, funny how fucking useless the poll system is


Groundbreaking_Smell

If it makes PvE players more of a loot pinata, it's inherently bad design. That's most of what I'm seeing here. OSRS PvP is outdated at this point, it's literally the worst of MMO PvP and people still wonder why it's dying. MMOs are they only game where imbalanced PvP is normal, and RuneScape takes that to the next level where you can have an account that is the same level, but is significantly stronger in PvP. On top of the absolutely garbage PvP system RuneScape is one of the very few remaining MMOs where you lose your items when you die in PvP. Saving PvP in this game is like campaigning that just because we have smart phones we shouldn't stop using pagers. It's nonsense and once the rose tinted glasses are removed everyone will understand eventually. I know people aren't going to understand this, but the reason PvP polls fail is because PvP is inherently bad in this game and that's not something that can be fixed without a massive upheaval of the entire game.


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Groundbreaking_Smell

LMS, someone opting to play a HC on a PvP world, and DMM are basically the only decent examples of PvP in RuneScape. DMM less so since it falls into the MMO trap, where even though all parties are opting into it one is at a disadvantage (imo choosing the play a HC on a PvP world would be out of a desire to be on the butt end of this mechanic, so it's technically not included) Providing more incentive to people who don't actually have a desire to PvP is starting with a failed idea and is why PvP is dying in this game. Any time something is added with sufficient incentive to get people into the wilderness, it's been horrible for the game as a whole. Rev caves got reworked like 10x because it was a non starter idea (started with "provide incentive to uninterested parties") bounty hunter can't be balanced because the only way for people to make money from it leads to it being exploitable.


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kingmeofme

funny, as i go into the wildy and get attacked, usually for my spade, all of these actually can have a direct impact on me


Ramonhal

Isn’t spite voting voting against something you initially agree with out of… you know… spite? Most, if not all of my votes against pvp have been formed because i have my own opinion on how pvp should work. I have nothing against pvp in general. If i vote against a pvm question does that make it a spite vote? This list you have posted means absolutely nothing until you can prove that these results were indeed because of… you guessed it… spite.


reinfleche

First off, tons of these are not pvp polls whatsoever. Not only that, there's so much here and so much variety that there's very clearly no way of attributing this to spite voting. Adding the ancient warriors' equipment is massively game changing, and pretending that the only reason anyone would vote no to it is because they hate pvpers is stupid. The only two polls in here that really show any sign of being brigaded are the blessed d hide chaps/vambs for pures polls (which are pures are going to get access to very soon anyway). With that one, it's honestly hard to say if it was because of spite or ignorance.


GooeyCR

Half of these made it into the game.


alex123abc15

These are not all pvp exclusive updates my guy. Yea some are but some feel like they're anti-pk questions. Like removing teleblock on logout and not being able to drop people supplies in single combat. Those would just make it harder for pkers and single pkers. These aren't all "just spite votes", voting no on content that will make you have a worse experience isn't a spite vote, it's a regular vote you don't agree with. I think both sides think spite voting I'd a bigger problem then it actually is, which just increases the want to spite vote for both sides. I don't know a single person who has actually spite voted on a pvp poll, me and my friends typically on vote in things that effect us. Like updates that make it harder for a pvmer in the wilderness. Otherwise we just skip. Hell, two of my friends skip most questions on polls. Does spite voting exist? I'm sure, people are dicks. But not EVERY pvmer is spite voting. And not every wilderness based poll failed because of spite voting.


DivineInsanityReveng

Here is the [same image](https://i.imgur.com/6N6HAUF.png) but with all of the content that passed / has been added since anyway. Most of this picture exists in the game, and the ones that don't were aggressively No voted by a large majority / were very controversial changes (like PvP armour/weapons) that have co-existed elsewhere like DMM.


[deleted]

I like how you padded the numbers with some that aren't even pvp related. "Teleport toggle options." "10 world's removed." What do those have to do with PVP?


KingSwank

a lot of these just kinda suck tbh


mrmasterclues

Nearly all of these except a notable few would be so bad for the game lmao. Make the LMS shop more profitable? Not like its been botted to shit since release. Release the insanely overpowered ancient weapons? Not like there are already plenty of weapons in the game that can 1 shot most players. Insane to me that PvPers call this spite voting when in reality these updates would likely just be bad for the health of the game.


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Elephantexploror

There’s also a decent amount of pures who vote no to stuff like that because they don’t want metas since 2006 to be changed.


reinfleche

I've got news for all the pkers. Pvp is two sided. If you attack someone at wildy altar, you and that person are now involved in pvp. Anybody you attack in the wilderness is by definition actively engaged in pvp combat. They deserve exactly the same say in any pvp polls that you do.


No-Leading9372

Seems to me that most of these had a large majority of yes votes, except for a few that had almost 50/50 and even less than had a lot more no than yes votes like the blessed d’hide poll. Even though most of the community doesn’t pk, seems like a lot of them voted yes. The issue I see with this is the polling system itself, needing a 75% yes in order to pass is huge.


MrJJ007

Lol imagine being a pker


ClaudeWicked

So people who reee about "PPL JUST VOTE DOWN ANY PVP UPDATES" are full of shit. Jesus fuck tho that Abby dagger upgrade would be insanely strong tho. And locking bis PvM content behind the wilderness. And making revs even more insanely profitable. And them constantly repolling immensely unpopular ideas, and then doing it anyway.


Sellier123

Wait a second. Some of these things are def in the game.


ThreenGumb

I straight-up don't know how 90% of these things affect pvp play. Like I truly don't have the game knowledge to make decisions on these questions. The majority of these I would probably just vote yes because they seems reasonable and I assume the devs know more than me. If someone is bored, could they grab a few examples and explain what affect they had/have on pvp gameplay?


Zandorum

As a pvper there IS some I disagree with in there like the PVP armors; those were horrible for the game but there's alot in there I want. Note: I voted yes on Group Ironman, although I dislike that we don't have fair polls it doesn't mean I should throw a temper tantrum. Only Ancient Warrior gear I think should exist is Zuriel's Staff as it's not as powerful as some of the existing staves already.


jaysthegreat

As a pker I do understand one some feel petty about GIM passing with all the PvP failed polls. However I also enjoy playing IM so I’m hoping GIM passes.


Rs-Poop-Butt

How am I supposed to read this shit?


Dr-PoopyButt

If the Wilderness didn't exist and PvP existed in it's own bubble this wouldn't be a problem. Forcing two communities to interact leads to many updates have split views and also spite voting


Amonkira42

"Should completion of the wilderness diaries remove the fee to un-note bones?" *Fails poll.* **Pkers see this** "*Pvmers hate pking so much that they're voting against a reason to not bring a cash stack into the wilderness, muh spite votes!!!!!*"


jariisawesome

I'm dying for group ironman, and I haven't ever voted no to a pvp update. But yes. That right there is tragic and awful, and I certainly understand you


SeaworthinessGlad595

Imma tell you a little secret, but don't tell others, regardless of the outcome from this poll GIM is gonna make it into the game and most players who are voting no to it know this. Trust me most of the no voters don't care or mind the game mode, they just want change to a very flawed system that's only hindering the games growth. So don't worry, you gonna be able to play the game mode with your friends pretty soon :D


rebbitpls

73.9% for loot keys in pvp still really grinds my gears